JBL Array 1400 - cabinets are live!

[dcolak]

I was wandering if anyone else on the forum have Array 1400's?

http://www.issuebroker.com/2p1.jpg

Gregg Timbers wrote that the "vibration free" enclosure was a prime goal to be met with the Arrays, but, the ones I have are vibrating like crazy.

The sonoglass part of the enclosure is vibrating as if it was a passive transducer!

Side walls, back walls are also vibrating, much more than Klipsch RF-83 boxes that cost ~10x less.

http://www.issuebroker.com/1400_8.jpg

For a 11K USD speaker I was expecting a well dampened enclosure. This one is as live as it can be.

Did the quality of Arrays go down since they were being made in Mexico?

[Mr. Widget]

Gregg Timbers wrote that the "vibration free" enclosure was a prime goal to be met with the Arrays, but, the ones I have are vibrating like crazy..

Did the quality of Arrays go down since they were being made in Mexico?Did he say that? I never heard him claim that, but whatever... as for Mexico, I imagine the cabinets are still being made in China... my "Made in USA" 1400 Arrays have cabinets that were made in China.

I don't think the midbass of these speakers is the very best I have ever heard, but over all the sound is fantastic. We have one member here who had all sorts of buyer's remorse early on and then finally got his Arrays set up in a manner that he liked and has become a big convert... see if you don't as well.

As for the vibration... do you hear a problem? This is what Stereophile had to say about the cabinet resonances (http://www.stereophile.com/content/jbl-synthesis-1400-array-bg-loudspeaker-measurements). The entire review is here (http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/jbl_synthesis_1400_array_bg_loudspeaker/index.html).

Give 'em a good listen and if you don't decide that they sound better than your Klipsches or what ever else you have then I guess they are not the right speaker for you... but give them a chance. I tend to listen to my speakers sitting about 9-10 feet away so it is rather difficult to feel the cabinets vibrating. :)


Widget

[Robh3606]

The sonoglass part of the enclosure is vibrating as if it was a passive transducer!


Do you mean the enclosure on the back of the horn?? Did you purchase them new?? If you didn't you might want to check to see if the screws that hold the horn enclosure in place are tightened correctly. The back horn is a press fit so you might want to make sure that it is tight against the horn all the way round.

The cabinet ??

Rob:)

[Titanium Dome]

As for the vibration... do you hear a problem?

Give 'em a good listen and if you don't decide that they sound better than your Klipsches or what ever else you have then I guess they are not the right speaker for you... but give them a chance. I tend to listen to my speakers sitting about 9-10 feet away so it is rather difficult to feel the cabinets vibrating. :)


Widget

That's the question. Do you hear it?

I've never invested any time in feeling my speakers unless I first thought I heard something that needed tactile confirmation. Too often these audiophile obsessions lead us to self-induced perceptions that take on a life of their own.

An over-enthusaistic friend of mine who believes he hears better than I do, though we've no test to prove or disprove his belief about that, insisted that the octagonal cabinets on my PT800s had an annoying resonance. Since I believed at the time that he probably did hear better than I, I followed his obsessive belief that we could hear the cabinet resonance.

So at his insistence we put in a frequency sweep disc and tortured those poor speakers until we found the offending frequencies. With a look of "What do you think of your precious JBLs now?" on his face, he insisted I go feel the cabinet while he ran the sweep again. Actually, I could feel plenty of vibration, but curiously could not localize the resonance with my ears. When we hit the offending frequencies, I did hear the sound finally, but not from my position. I localized it to the part of the room where we normally sit to listen.

As it turned out, one of the Korean dolls we had on a shelf near the back of the room was making the resonant noise. I put a piece of felt under it--problem solved!

Widget's advice is sound. Give them a good listen, maybe experiment with placement a bit, and if you don't like them, then they're not for you. I've heard 1400 Arrays in a number of settings and never heard anything like you're describing. I've never felt the cabinets while they were playing, so I can't say what vibrations might be felt.

Rob may be correct that something is not tight or attached correctly, so check that, too. I have the SAM1HF units in my theatre, but they're in solid enclosures and not exposed like on the 1400. I've not heard anything from the SAM's beefy cabinets for sure.

[Mctwins]

Hi
I think that you hear the room resonances more then from your speakers. If you have soft wall, not rigid, it could be a problem here.
Thanks

[richluvsound]

Perhaps the doors are responsible in some way ! If the room is resonating ,anything in it will resonate also .

Rich

[dcolak]

Did he say that? I never heard him claim that, but whatever... as for Mexico, I imagine the cabinets are still being made in China... my "Made in USA" 1400 Arrays have cabinets that were made in China.

I don't think the midbass of these speakers is the very best I have ever heard, but over all the sound is fantastic. We have one member here who had all sorts of buyer's remorse early on and then finally got his Arrays set up in a manner that he liked and has become a big convert... see if you don't as well.

As for the vibration... do you hear a problem? This is what Stereophile had to say about the cabinet resonances (http://www.stereophile.com/content/jbl-synthesis-1400-array-bg-loudspeaker-measurements). The entire review is here (http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/jbl_synthesis_1400_array_bg_loudspeaker/index.html).

Give 'em a good listen and if you don't decide that they sound better than your Klipsches or what ever else you have then I guess they are not the right speaker for you... but give them a chance. I tend to listen to my speakers sitting about 9-10 feet away so it is rather difficult to feel the cabinets vibrating. :)

Here they are, words of Mr. Greg:

"The industrial design of the system was quite a challenge. Having established a number of important criteria regarding the relative location and packaging of each transducer, it became necessary to consider a less conventional design. The LF enclosure needed to be heavy, solid and vibration-free. In addition, it needed to allow the horn module to sit as low as possible to reduce the center-to-center distance between the LF and HF drivers. The horn itself is molded from a high-density resin material, using an extremely thick wall section. This makes the horn heavy and acoustically inert."

The enclosure (cabinet) is anything but solid and vibration-free. It is vibrating more than JBL S312II (my other speakers).

http://www.issuebroker.com/a1.jpg

The horn being acoustically intert is also false, it is vibrating as strong as the enclosure, almost like a transducer.

I am really surprised.

Regarding the sound, sometimes I feel there is a "box" coloration to the music.

Sometimes the voice of the singer, for example Chris Isaak in Blue Spanish Sky gets divided in two.

I can hear pefectly half of his voice coming from the woofer and the other half from the horn, as if two persons were singing.

Maybe it's all the enclosure vibration that is smearing the voice?

P.S.
I already bought Arrays and sold my Klipschs :o:

http://www.issuebroker.com/1400_3.jpg

[dcolak]

That's the question. Do you hear it?

Rob may be correct that something is not tight or attached correctly, so check that, too. I have the SAM1HF units in my theatre, but they're in solid enclosures and not exposed like on the 1400. I've not heard anything from the SAM's beefy cabinets for sure.

They were new, everything tight. The horns are vibrating in the rhytm of the top side of the enclosure, as if it was intentionally made that way, instead of containing the vibration - trying to let it free through the sonoglass resin? :dont-know:

[timc]

With a so close to wall placement, i will be surprised if you dont have a very strong combfilter effect from the woofers upper range.

Hva you double checked tha phase of the horn, relative to the woofer?

[dcolak]

With a so close to wall placement, i will be surprised if you dont have a very strong combfilter effect from the woofers upper range.

Hva you double checked tha phase of the horn, relative to the woofer?

There is no way to connect horns in a wrong way, the phase should be ok. :dont-know:

Speakers sound best at the current location, if I move them more from the wall they accentuate room nodes at the place I'm sitting.

[grumpy]

Hi dcolak,

I haven't listened to that Chris Isaak recording in quite awhile... but are you sure you are
not just hearing more of what was recorded (e.g., a subtle over-dub)? If I think about it,
I'll give it a listen again tonight.

My second thought will be more controversial, and very unlike me to normally suggest:
If you're interested in doing so, try isolating the CD player from the shelf. I'd have thought
this idea to be full of crap until I did a blind test (was supposed to be regarding cables)
where a CD player had to be lifted from the shelf to change the cables... I could reliably
tell when the CD player was held off of the shelf -before- any cables were changed.

The only engineering reason I could come up with was that coupled vibrations were
causing the transport drive servo feedback to jerk around enough that error correction
in the player was kicking in... a wild-ass-guess since I don't design the things.

At any rate, the only cost to test is time and a bored helper. :)

My third thought is that the whole cabinet is moving, essentially as a unit...
either poorly coupled to the floor, or on a floor that is not stiff or massive enough
to prevent such motion. This may not be the case, but just a thought...

[dcolak]

Hi dcolak,

I haven't listened to that Chris Isaak recording in quite awhile... but are you sure you are
not just hearing more of what was recorded (e.g., a subtle over-dub)? If I think about it,
I'll give it a listen again tonight.

My second thought will be more controversial, and very unlike me to normally suggest:
If you're interested in doing so, try isolating the CD player from the shelf. I'd have thought
this idea to be full of crap until I did a blind test (was supposed to be regarding cables)
where a CD player had to be lifted from the shelf to change the cables... I could reliably
tell when the CD player was held off of the shelf -before- any cables were changed.

The only engineering reason I could come up with was that coupled vibrations were
causing the transport drive servo feedback to jerk around enough that error correction
in the player was kicking in... a wild-ass-guess since I don't design the things.

At any rate, the only cost to test is time and a bored helper. :)

My third thought is that the whole cabinet is moving, essentially as a unit...
either poorly coupled to the floor, or on a floor that is not stiff or massive enough
to prevent such motion. This may not be the case, but just a thought...

Thank you for the ideas. Unfortunately I don't use CD player.

The Cambridge Audio 840C is being used as a DAC, the source being SqueezeBox.

Please do listen to the song! Over my old Klipsch RF83 and JBL S312II I hear one coherent voice.

On the other hand I did purchase Arrays exactly because they offered A LOT more information / transparency than the other speakers I had.

By the way, JBL S312II are REALLY good speakers, now that I have Array's also I can compare them and to be honest there is nothing wrong with S312II's. They offer as much music pleasure as Arrays do with a bit less of information (less transparency and detail) :)

[rdgrimes]

By the way, JBL S312II are REALLY good speakers, now that I have Array's also I can compare them and to be honest there is nothing wrong with S312II's. They offer as much music pleasure as Arrays do with a bit less of information (less transparency and detail) :)
I gotta jump in here and say that if the S312 compares favorably to the Array, there's something pretty wrong with the Array setup. The S312 is in a completely different class of speaker. Based on the photos, I'd say that placement and room treatments are the best place to start.

[cooky1257]

Tighten everything, the horns to the bass enclosure, the bass drivers,the feet-very important to ensure these are also dead level.

Check the phase.

[timc]

There is no way to connect horns in a wrong way

Oh? Is it fitted with connectors that only fit one way?

Then i think you are troubled by comb filtering. This will give you dips in frequency response with one octave steps.

[Valentin]

THERE IS ALWAYS A CHANCE YOU GOT A BAD PAIR...........

My pair sounds just fine :)

[Mr. Widget]

THERE IS ALWAYS A CHANCE YOU GOT A BAD PAIR...........

My pair sounds just fine :)I am not sure his don't sound fine... they just vibrate and he is concerned about that... if you read JA's technical review of the speaker that I posted earlier, the cabinets do vibrate... quite a bit for such a fine speaker, but they also found that it doesn't seem to be much of an audible issue.

If a speaker vibrates even though it doesn't color the sound much, if you spend more time worrying about the possible ill effects that the live cabinet may make on your sound than enjoying the excellent music that it reproduces, you will probably never be happy with the speaker. In this hobby of ours many people get caught up in solid state vs. tubes, horns vs. cones and domes, and numerous other aspects of the audio chain... things that we as end users have no control over... just listen. Trust your ears... if it sounds good to you, then it is good, if it does not sound good, then move on.


Widget

[Valentin]

I am not sure his don't sound fine... they just vibrate and he is concerned about that... if you read JA's technical review of the speaker that I posted earlier, the cabinets do vibrate... quite a bit for such a fine speaker, but they also found that it doesn't seem to be much of an audible issue.

If a speaker vibrates even though it doesn't color the sound much, if you spend more time worrying about the possible ill effects that the live cabinet may make on your sound than enjoying the excellent music that it reproduces, you will probably never be happy with the speaker. In this hobby of ours many people get caught up in solid state vs. tubes, horns vs. cones and domes, and numerous other aspects of the audio chain... things that we as end users have no control over... just listen. Trust your ears... if it sounds good to you, then it is good, if it does not sound good, then move on.


Widget

on target ;)

[dcolak]

THERE IS ALWAYS A CHANCE YOU GOT A BAD PAIR...........

My pair sounds just fine :)

Did you put your hand on the enclosure while playing the music? It's vibrating like crazy, almost as if it was intentionally made like that :blink: The sono glass vibrates even more than side, front and back walls of the loudspeaker.

Does it influence the sound? Probably, how can it not influence, vibrating so much.

Does it make me unhappy? Not at all.

I was just surprised that Greg Timbers would call those boxes "inert and vibration free" they are everything but that.

What I can assure you is that Array 1400 sound much worse and show signs of distortion and muddled sound when giving them around 100W RMS compared to Klipsch RF83 that sound completely clean with that kind of power.

Of course, Klipsch do not have the amount of transparency and details that offer the Arrays.

The amp has 500W RMS and I never get it even close to clipping.

With 100+W RMS the enclosure vibration is audible. I guess JA of Stereophile never made a party during the Array review.

I'm happy with the purchase, but I was wandering, maybe my pair really lacks the bracing within the enclosures. I never saw a speaker vibrate as much in any price range.

My other speakers are JBL S312II, JBL S38II, Klipsch B2, Klipsch RF83 (sold)

By the way I moved the Arrays away from the walls but it doesn't really fix the problem with Chris Isaak's Blue Spanish Sky song, where his voice comes out as if it were two persons singing (one with the high pitch, one with the low pitch).

Those with Arrays, can you please listen to that song? How does his voice come out? As one coherent sound or as if there are two singers? :)

My other speakers do not exibit the voice separation into low and high registers.

[withTarragon]

"....

What I can assure you is that Array 1400 sound much worse and show signs of distortion and muddled sound when giving them around 100W RMS compared to Klipsch RF83 that sound completely clean with that kind of power. With 100W RMS the enclosure vibration is being audible.

....."

Well, Do you really think you are giving the cabinets 100Watts? If you are, and I am skeptical, then there will be distortion and vibration and all sorts of other things. Certainly your own hearing will be "over-driven" at that level and not very good.

[dcolak]

"....

What I can assure you is that Array 1400 sound much worse and show signs of distortion and muddled sound when giving them around 100W RMS compared to Klipsch RF83 that sound completely clean with that kind of power. With 100W RMS the enclosure vibration is being audible.

....."

Well, Do you really think you are giving the cabinets 100Watts? If you are, and I am skeptical, then there will be distortion and vibration and all sorts of other things. Certainly your own hearing will be "over-driven" at that level and not very good.

Yes, to be precise, I'm giving them 97W RMS (into 6ohm.)

My room is 6x7m, no apparent vibrations of any kind. We do like to party and with Klipsches people were always screaming into my ear "turn it up!" no matter how much W I gave them. Of course, they had to scream into my ear for me to be able to hear them.

http://www.issuebroker.com/p3500s_3.jpg

With JBL Arrays, people are screaming turn it down it hurts our ears :D

http://www.issuebroker.com/1400_9.jpg

[Mannermusic]

"....

What I can assure you is that Array 1400 sound much worse and show signs of distortion and muddled sound when giving them around 100W RMS compared to Klipsch RF83 that sound completely clean with that kind of power. With 100W RMS the enclosure vibration is being audible.

....."

Well, Do you really think you are giving the cabinets 100Watts? If you are, and I am skeptical, then there will be distortion and vibration and all sorts of other things. Certainly your own hearing will be "over-driven" at that level and not very good.

Boy, I was thinking the same thing. My DIY rig puts out 90 db at 1 watt (measured data). While the 1400 is less efficient, I still can't imagine . . .:blink:

[dcolak]

Boy, I was thinking the same thing. My DIY rig puts out 90 db at 1 watt (measured data). While the 1400 is less efficient, I still can't imagine . . .:blink:

It's a party, not a casual listening. :bouncy:

For partying I use -10dB attenuation on Yamaha P5000S, with 2.1V input that gives me 24.2V into 6ohm output, or ~97W RMS

With Klipsches, you still can enjoy the music as much as the partying, with JBL, you must turn it down.

For day to day listening I am more than happy with -30dB attenuation that gives me 2.4V -> ~0.96W output :)

[Eaulive]

Of course, they had to scream into my ear for me to be able to hear them.

I never let people screm into my ears, if you do, then no wonder your hearing is shot! :blink:

[richluvsound]

You are the only person I have heard of having this problem . GT is an idiot , we at the forum are useless and all the reviews are lies ! Just call your dealer and have him come and hear your complaint .

Frankly , its a waste of bandwidth .

I guess they are just crap speakers . just buy some more Klipsch !

[dcolak]

I never let people screm into my ears, if you do, then no wonder your hearing is shot! :blink:

Hey hey, my hearing is just fine I measure it frecuently. It's a figure of speach "to scream into my ear" :)

[dcolak]

You are the only person I have heard of having this problem . GT is an idiot , we at the forum are useless and all the reviews are lies ! Just call your dealer and have him come and hear your complaint .

Frankly , its a waste of bandwidth .

I guess they are just crap speakers . just buy some more Klipsch !

Who called GT an idiot? I certainly did not.

The way Arrays portray music, for example the soundtrack of Conan the barbarian is nothing short of AWESOME.

I can hear every single instrument, every single cough, every single whisper in the orchestra.

The sheer emotion that Arrays convey is priceless.

Before purchasing Arrays I compared them with the ATC's, which are mighty good speakers.

http://www.issuebroker.com/atc2.jpg

Before listening to ATC's I had Arrays in my house for several weeks, on a trial.

After listening the ATC's all I could think of was "now it's too late the shop is closed, I'll go tomorrow first thing in a morning and buy the Arrays, I want them even more now that I have heard the ATC's" :)

So no, I am not a JBL basher, my second favourite speakers are JBL S312II, now that I have Klipsch RF83 sold.

Never the less, I am still very much surprised that GT called those enclosures "inert and vibration free" and I am still surprised that Arrays are not very usable for partying.

Do you have Array 1400's?

Do they not vibrate like crazy with anything over 5W RMS?

Do they not pierce your ears with anything over 60W RMS?

Did you hear Klipsch RF83 with 70+W RMS? :)

All I would like to know is do I have a lemon pair of Arrays or do they all have live cabinets that vibrate strongly.

[timc]

That the Array sounds harsh at high levels is new to me. I have driven them to extreme (in my ears) levels, and everything was still smooooth. Are you sure you are not listening to other shortcommings in your system (or room). Personally i would be skeptical at running a relativly cheap PA amplifier on that horn. It's ridicilously revealing.

[dcolak]

That the Array sounds harsh at high levels is new to me. I have driven them to extreme (in my ears) levels, and everything was still smooooth. Are you sure you are not listening to other shortcommings in your system (or room). Personally i would be skeptical at running a relativly cheap PA amplifier on that horn. It's ridicilously revealing.

How many W RMS did you feed them with? I am really interested in knowing that information, it puts things into perspective.

If you used 30-40W RMS we are not talking about the same thing.

On the other hand, I am suspecting my Cambridge Audio 840C might be a bit bright, altough all the meassurements are showing it has perfectly flat response.

Yamaha P5000S is a clean, powerful, class "D" amplifier with nice, balanced sound with low distortion and low noise levels.

I cannot recommend it highly enough.

[pos]

If you find them harsh at high level that might have more to do with HF than LF and cabinet vibration.

The directivity pattern of a horn speaker, and especially the array, is very different from a cone speaker. As it is constant direcititvy you get much more overall HF in your power response.

Look at these measurements:

Array 1400:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=17708&stc=1&d=1156648272

PT800 Perforcamne (certainly simiular to your klipch speaker in term of direcitivty pattern)
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=18041&stc=1&d=1157034351

Pay a close attention to the total power response (4th curve from top, the lowest of the top curves). You see that it tends to drop with frequency on conventional cone speakers (10dB drop between1khz and 15khz), whereas it remains much flatter with the array (no significant drop between 1khz and 15khz).
This is what constant direcitivty brings you, but it can be a problem if your room is live, especially at high levels and when you are far away from the speakers, because what you hear then is mostly the power response.
If that is the case you have two options: treat your room with some good dampening (and possibly more sophisicated treatments), or use some EQ to lower the HF level during parties.

[dcolak]

If you find them harsh at high level that might have more to do with HF than LF and cabinet vibration.

The directivity pattern of a horn speaker, and especially the array, is very different from a cone speaker. As it is constant direcititvy you get much more overall HF in your power response.

Look at these measurements:

Array 1400:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=17708&stc=1&d=1156648272

PT800 Perforcamne (certainly simiular to your klipch speaker in term of direcitivty pattern)
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=18041&stc=1&d=1157034351

Pay a close attention to the total power response (4th curve from top, the lowest of the top curves). You see that it tends to drop with frequency on conventional cone speakers, whereas it remains much flatter with the array.
This is what constant direcitivty brings you, but it can be a problem if your room is live, especially at high levels and when you are far away from the speakers, because what you hear then is mostly the power response.
If that is the case you have two options: treat your room with some good dampening (and possibly more sophisicated treatments), or use some EQ to lower the HF level during parties.

I think you're onto something. That makes perfect sense.

Klipsch RF-83 probably did roll-off a bit over 16Khz which made their horns more listenable at high levels.

A bit of EQ at the top might make all the difference with the Arrays :hmm::thmbsup:

[timc]

How many W RMS did you feed them with? I am really interested in knowing that information, it puts things into perspective.

If you used 30-40W RMS we are not talking about the same thing.


It was a Crest PA amplifier with 300Wpc 8ohm. We played as loud as we felt the array could handle. The woofer did really move, and i was just waiting for the large windows to shatter. This was a conventional A/B design but i think it was PWM power supply. Not the most refined and detailed sound, but rock solid fundament and not harsh in any way.

BTW: Most class D i have heard (mainly based on B&O ICE or Tripath), sounds restrained and quite harsh in the treble. Same goes for Class I (Crown I-tech)

[timc]

Klipsch RF-83 probably did roll-off a bit over 16Khz which made their horns more listenable at high levels.


I measured a RF-63, and it showed a huge dip in the upper midrange. It was quite wide as well. Then it came full force from 8-9Khz, with a rize towards 20KHz. No rolloff. On-axis mind you.

After some research we came to the conclusion that the dip was the result of the inevitable diffraction cancellation you get from "flat mouthed square/circular) horn mouths. Ref. Geddes paper on sound radiation from circular apperatures from 1993 (AES)

[dcolak]

I measured a RF-63, and it showed a huge dip in the upper midrange. It was quite wide as well. Then it came full force from 8-9Khz, with a rize towards 20KHz. No rolloff. On-axis mind you.

After some research we came to the conclusion that the dip was the result of the inevitable diffraction cancellation you get from "flat mouthed square/circular) horn mouths. Ref. Geddes paper on sound radiation from circular apperatures from 1993 (AES)

Interesting. So what's cutting our ears might not be the 14Khz+ but the 6-10Khz range.

Compared to Array 1400, Klipsch RF83 sounded dull and attenuated in high frequencies.

[dcolak]

It was a Crest PA amplifier with 300Wpc 8ohm. We played as loud as we felt the array could handle. The woofer did really move, and i was just waiting for the large windows to shatter. This was a conventional A/B design but i think it was PWM power supply. Not the most refined and detailed sound, but rock solid fundament and not harsh in any way.

BTW: Most class D i have heard (mainly based on B&O ICE or Tripath), sounds restrained and quite harsh in the treble. Same goes for Class I (Crown I-tech)

Which model of Crest did you use? How much attenuation did you select on the dials? What was the input V?

Using a pro amp with -dB dials makes it easy to know exactly how much W you are sending into the speakers :)

As I understand it, Yamaha uses proprietary "D class a-like system" EEEngine.

EEEngine

EEEngine (Energy Efficient Engine) Technology makes more efficient use of AC power by reducing power consumption and heat generation without sacrificing output power or sound quality. When power requirements are low, the system uses a highly efficient current buffer to transparently switch input power on and off as needed. As power requirements increase, an independently responding auxiliary power line supplies additional power as required. Output isn't compromised because the auxiliary power line is driven by the power supply voltage which maintains maximum output to the speaker load.

[timc]

Interesting. So what's cutting our ears might not be the 14Khz+ but the 6-10Khz range.

As you probably have guessed i find the Klipsch way harsher than the Array ( i worked at a Klipsch dealer for 5 years). My believe is that the dip in the Klipsch means, that the upper harmonics is relatively unaturaly strong compared to the lower harmonics. There at not many fundamentals in the 5-7K range. This making the sound a bit clinical and "analytical"

When it comes to what is annoying, personally i really hate excessive "sssss" sounds. This sound is 8-10KHz.

[rdgrimes]

Listening fatigue with speakers of this caliber points to poor placement, poor room treatments and/or an amp that's clipping. Could be all 3. Based on the photos, room treatments are certainly needed. Most people would be reaching to turn the Arrays UP, not down, presuming proper setup. That front wall alone is a source for many bad reflections, and they should be pulled out as far as possible away from it even with treatments. But no amount of electronics fiddling, EQ or the like will make a bad room better.

[timc]

Which model of Crest did you use? How much attenuation did you select on the dials? What was the input V?

Using a pro amp with -dB dials makes it easy to know exactly how much W you are sending into the speakers :)



I have not idea of this. It was not my system. I THINK the dials were at max. We used a ARC LS2B linestage.

[dcolak]

As you probably have guessed i find the Klipsch way harsher than the Array ( i worked at a Klipsch dealer for 5 years). My believe is that the dip in the Klipsch means, that the upper harmonics is relatively unaturaly strong compared to the lower harmonics. There at not many fundamentals in the 5-7K range. This making the sound a bit clinical and "analytical"

When it comes to what is annoying, personally i really hate excessive "sssss" sounds. This sound is 8-10KHz.

That's exactly how I would describe Array 1400 sound! The excessive "sssss" sounds!

The Klipsch RF-83 sounds mellow, compared to Array's.

:dont-know:

http://www.issuebroker.com/k5.jpg

http://www.issuebroker.com/k6.jpg

http://www.issuebroker.com/k4.jpg

http://www.issuebroker.com/k3.jpg

[timc]

That's exactly how I would describe Array 1400 sound! The excessive "sssss" sounds!


:dont-know:

Then my conclusion is that you have a relativly high reverberation time in your room at thoose frequencies. And that the wider vertical dispersion of the Array horn makes it worse. Try putting something porus on the ceiling and floor.

Also makes sure that you are not confusing the SSSSS sound with the SCH sound. The SCH is located in the 1-3KHz range.

[dcolak]

Listening fatigue with speakers of this caliber points to poor placement, poor room treatments and/or an amp that's clipping. Could be all 3. Based on the photos, room treatments are certainly needed. Most people would be reaching to turn the Arrays UP, not down, presuming proper setup. That front wall alone is a source for many bad reflections, and they should be pulled out as far as possible away from it even with treatments. But no amount of electronics fiddling, EQ or the like will make a bad room better.

We measured Klipsch RF-83 frequency response at the place I'm sitting at and there were no big dips or hills in it.

One of these days I should measure the Arrays.

No amp clipping with 500W RMS and dial set at -20 dB or -10 dB :)

[hjames]

That's exactly how I would describe Array 1400 sound! The excessive "sssss" sounds!

The Klipsch RF-83 sounds mellow, compared to Array's.

:dont-know:



Could it be that the Klipsch doesn't reproduce that sssssssssss band as accurately, so when you get a speaker that does - you can hear the amp's noise better, and are blaming the speaker on it?

[pos]

Klipsch RF-83 probably did roll-off a bit over 16Khz which made their horns more listenable at high levels.
The interesting curve is the power response one (4th curve from top, the blue one one the array measurement), not the on-axis response.
The > 15khz response should not be a real problem. It is more in the 5khz-15khz range that things happen.

You could try a gentle shelf filter above 5khz, slowly reducing gain up to something like -6dB at 20khz (~-3dB/oct).
But that would only be a quick fix to get that mellow sound your party mates were accustomed to.
The real fix would be to treat your room.

[timc]

We measured Klipsch RF-83 frequency response at the place I'm sitting at and there were no big dips or hills in it.



As I said, I would asume that the dip dissapears a few degrees off axis. I did not double check this. The analysis we did is only valid On-Axis. But it could explain the power response dip that Pos is showing.

[pos]

some explanation on the axial vs power reponse can be found here, page 2:
www.jblpro.com/catalog/support/getfile.aspx?docid=303&doctype=3

The Array 1400 is a constant directivity loudspeaker, whereas the Klipch is not (a horn does not guaranty constant directivity).

[timc]

whereas the Klipch is not

Are you sure about this?

[richluvsound]

Who called GT an idiot? I certainly did not.

The way Arrays portray music, for example the soundtrack of Conan the barbarian is nothing short of AWESOME.

I can hear every single instrument, every single cough, every single whisper in the orchestra.

The sheer emotion that Arrays convey is priceless.

Before purchasing Arrays I compared them with the ATC's, which are mighty good speakers.

http://www.issuebroker.com/atc2.jpg

Before listening to ATC's I had Arrays in my house for several weeks, on a trial.

After listening the ATC's all I could think of was "now it's too late the shop is closed, I'll go tomorrow first thing in a morning and buy the Arrays, I want them even more now that I have heard the ATC's" :)

So no, I am not a JBL basher, my second favourite speakers are JBL S312II, now that I have Klipsch RF83 sold.

Never the less, I am still very much surprised that GT called those enclosures "inert and vibration free" and I am still surprised that Arrays are not very usable for partying.

Do you have Array 1400's?

Do they not vibrate like crazy with anything over 5W RMS?

Do they not pierce your ears with anything over 60W RMS?

Did you hear Klipsch RF83 with 70+W RMS? :)

All I would like to know is do I have a lemon pair of Arrays or do they all have live cabinets that vibrate strongly.



Tim makes a good point about the PA amp ..... the high end JBL's will show up anything weak in the chain.

I use class A or Valves .... Digital format @ high bit rates through a stand alone DAC into these !

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?29232-Homage-to-Northridge&p=293624&viewfull=1

I found lesser amplification too bright also , but getting better amps has made all the difference .

If I wanted a JBL party speaker I would have kept the 4345's

I did have a pair of Klipsch RF 30's ... I think thats what they were . Quite old .... they didn't age much more in my possession either . I didn't find them very musical ,driven bi-wired with 2 X QUAD 909's

I have found that the better my system has become ,the smaller my music collection has become . Poor recordings don't get played when I want to enjoy the best qualities of the system !

[pos]

Are you sure about this?Yes, according to the specs this is a tractrix horn

[dcolak]

Tim makes a good point about the PA amp ..... the high end JBL's will show up anything weak in the chain.

I use class A or Valves .... Digital format @ high bit rates through a stand alone DAC into these !

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?29232-Homage-to-Northridge&p=293624&viewfull=1

I found lesser amplification too bright also , but getting better amps has made all the difference .

If I wanted a JBL party speaker I would have kept the 4345's

I did have a pair of Klipsch RF 30's ... I think thats what they were . Quite old .... they didn't age much more in my possession either . I didn't find them very musical ,driven bi-wired with 2 X QUAD 909's

I have found that the better my system has become ,the smaller my music collection has become . Poor recordings don't get played when I want to enjoy the best qualities of the system !

I am playing with valves too, at this point.

http://www.issuebroker.com/tektron_1.jpg

http://www.issuebroker.com/tektron_2.jpg

http://www.issuebroker.com/tektron_5.jpg

Yamaha P5000S should be perfectly flat, not bright, but who knows.

It's fun to play with different amps :)

This one has less wide, not so finely defined sound stage and a bit more noise, compared with Yamaha P5000S.

The problem with the music collection does exist, I have it too. :( :D

[richluvsound]

I still think you need to get the speakers checked over for piece of mind ... then start trying different gear .

The 840 is a highly regarded CD , but not by me . I'm a firm believer that the Array 1400 deserves better
signal processing .

It would be nice to move them away from that back wall a metre and give them a listen ...

We all have different priorities when it comes to how much room and money to allocate to this hobby ....

I'm sad, as its my highest priority . With a pair of speakers like yours I would not give up till they were
what I wanted

[dcolak]

I still think you need to get the speakers checked over for piece of mind ... then start trying different gear .

The 840 is a highly regarded CD , but not by me . I'm a firm believer that the Array 1400 deserves better
signal processing .

It would be nice to move them away from that back wall a metre and give them a listen ...

We all have different priorities when it comes to how much room and money to allocate to this hobby ....

I'm sad, as its my highest priority . With a pair of speakers like yours I would not give up till they were
what I wanted

The front baffle is 1m from the back wall. If I move them more into the room, there will be no space left for casual dancing! :D

I'll probably open one of the speakers and take pictures of the inside of the enclosure. That way we will be able to compare them.

[timc]

Yes, according to the specs this is a tractrix horn

So you can't have a CD Tractrix?

The Klipsch is not a "pure" tractrix. It is a special design.

[grumpy]

1) running the Cambridge straight into the yamaha
(no line amp)?

2) I listened to Spanish Sky on two different JBL horn
based systems today... TiDome's K2s and my own 'custom'
setup. With the K2's I could hear more of the studio
processing... which has a reverb/echo with the delayed
signal rolled off... it does have a bit of a dual voice
character (not an overdub or simple delay). My thought
is that you are hearing more of that aspect of the
recording, whether 'correct' or somehow enhanced in
your listening environment.

[Titanium Dome]

1) running the Cambridge straight into the yamaha
(no line amp)?

2) I listened to Spanish Sky on two different JBL horn
based systems today... TiDome's K2s and my own 'custom'
setup. With the K2's I could hear more of the studio
processing... which has a reverb/echo with the delayed
signal rolled off... it does have a bit of a dual voice
character (not an overdub or simple delay). My thought
is that you are hearing more of that aspect of the
recording, whether 'correct' or somehow enhanced in
your listening environment.

And i said, "Send that disc back to Spain." ;)

[pos]

So you can't have a CD Tractrix?
I don't think so, as it defines the profile of the horn.
It is not as bad as an exponential horn in term of beaming, but still quite beamy at high frequencies...

[timc]

I don't think so, as it defines the profile of the horn.
It is not as bad as an exponential horn in term of beaming, but still quite beamy at high frequencies...


This i have to check out. Interesting........

[dcolak]

1) running the Cambridge straight into the yamaha
(no line amp)?

2) I listened to Spanish Sky on two different JBL horn
based systems today... TiDome's K2s and my own 'custom'
setup. With the K2's I could hear more of the studio
processing... which has a reverb/echo with the delayed
signal rolled off... it does have a bit of a dual voice
character (not an overdub or simple delay). My thought
is that you are hearing more of that aspect of the
recording, whether 'correct' or somehow enhanced in
your listening environment.

1) Yes -> Cambridge Audio 840C 2.1V output directly into input sensitivity 6dBu. Nothing to smear the sound between the source and the amplifier. RCA and XLR outputs sound the same.

2) That's nice to hear. Yes, it sounds as if the lower registers of his voice come later and separated from the higher registers. As if the horn was playing half of his voice and the rest of it came from the woofer. Thank you for doing the test.

[dcolak]

And i said, "Send that disc back to Spain." ;)

As richluvsound said, better the loudspeaker, less music we can enjoy.

Hm, that doesn't seem right, does it? :blink: :D

That's the context I mentioned JBL S312II's in. With them, all the music sounds nice and rarely you think something is bothering you. The combination of VirtueAudio TWO -> JBL S312II is really good.

With Arrays, I have to look for the music that sounds ok.

Most of it was produced horribly, compression, digital clipping (ok, that one I can hear on S312II's too), horribly armed soundstage, with the drums taking up the whole stage, hi-hats on left and right side, singer to the left, piano size of a bus etc.

That's why valves help, they smear everything a bit, so it makes us less aware of all the faults in the production, IMHO.

[joaquin]

I was wandering if anyone else on the forum have Array 1400's?

http://www.issuebroker.com/2p1.jpg

Gregg Timbers wrote that the "vibration free" enclosure was a prime goal to be met with the Arrays, but, the ones I have are vibrating like crazy.

The sonoglass part of the enclosure is vibrating as if it was a passive transducer!

Side walls, back walls are also vibrating, much more than Klipsch RF-83 boxes that cost ~10x less.

http://www.issuebroker.com/1400_8.jpg

For a 11K USD speaker I was expecting a well dampened enclosure. This one is as live as it can be.

Did the quality of Arrays go down since they were being made in Mexico?

... well what can I say , everyone who has build a cabinet knows what it means when it resonate , but if other members have the speakers and they are not having the same problem , either something is wrong with your speaker or configuration . You must then hear an array 1400 that doesn´t resonate to really know if you are missing something .

Also I do not think those speakers rated at 89dB sensibility can be well driven by a 1 watt "mini amp" , I have a pair of "over 100db" sensitivity speakers driven by 1.5 watts and they are "just enough" to get good sound .

[hjames]

As richluvsound said, better the loudspeaker, less music we can enjoy.

Hm, that doesn't seem right, does it? :blink: :D

That's why valves help, they smear everything a bit, so it makes us less aware of all the faults in the production, IMHO. .

yep BoPutnam is a sound engineer and he has said the same thing (he's got 4345 monitors) - some speakers are like high end analysis tools - you can hear every flaw. Good if you are mixing records and WANT to hear every glitch - but if you just want to enjoy the music, maybe not so good!

[dcolak]

... well what can I say , everyone who has build a cabinet knows what it means when it resonate , but if other members have the speakers and they are not having the same problem , either something is wrong with your speaker or configuration . You must then hear an array 1400 that doesn´t resonate to really know if you are missing something .

Also I do not think those speakers rated at 89dB sensibility can be well driven by a 1 watt "mini amp" , I have a pair of "over 100db" sensitivity speakers driven by 1.5 watts and they are "just enough" to get good sound .

Yamaha P5000S has 500W RMS per channel.

It seems that all Arrays vibrate. Can you hear it is a different question.

[Titanium Dome]

yep BoPutnam is a sound engineer and he has said the same thing (he's got 4345 monitors) - some speakers are like high end analysis tools - you can hear every flaw. Good if you are mixing records and WANT to hear every glitch - but if you just want to enjoy the music, maybe not so good!

Hey Heather, I like that picture. :)

Grumpy and Sanjay (from AVS) were over yesterday, and I was waxing eloquent (okay, long-winded) on why I'm glad to have several systems in the house. All my music sounds good on at least one of them.

Some of it really irritates me on the K2s, but sounds good on the L5s or even the L100s. If it's really well recorded, it sounds fantastic on the K2s and good on lesser systems. If something has just a bit too much HF edge on the K2s, the S/2600s make it sound like gold. There truly is no single answer for me.

[dcolak]

Hey Heather, I like that picture. :)

Grumpy and Sanjay (from AVS) were over yesterday, and I was waxing eloquent (okay, long-winded) on why I'm glad to have several systems in the house. All my music sounds good on at least one of them.

Some of it really irritates me on the K2s, but sounds good on the L5s or even the L100s. If it's really well recorded, it sounds fantastic on the K2s and good on lesser systems. If something has just a bit too much HF edge on the K2s, the S/2600s make it sound like gold. There truly is no single answer for me.

That's the road I took too. JBL S38II in one dormitory, Klipsch B-3 in another, JBL S312II in my office, Array 1400 in living. It's nice to be able to say "hm, what would Klipsches do with this?"

Amplifiers go from Trends TA10.1, Dayens Ampino, VirtueAudio TWO, NuForce Icon to Yamaha P3500S and P5000S :) All kinds of combinations, each of them sounds as good as it can in its room :)

[richluvsound]

Have you tried bi-amping ?

[Mr. Widget]

I am not going to comment on all that has been posted above, but I will say that as much as I like the 1400 Array speakers, I do not think they sound particularly great if insane SPLs are your goal. (I define insane as >105dB) If you really want to kick some butt at levels above 105dB with some degree of grace a 4" compression driver and one or more 15" woofers per channel is needed in my opinion. The Everest II is in this category as is the venerable 4350/55... both of these loudspeakers will play back at absolutely stupid sound pressure levels and sound good doing it. I rarely if ever listen at anything approaching these levels any more and therefore the 1400 Array maintains it's composure for me and sounds pretty darned good.

FWIW: A few minutes ago I did turn up my 1400 Arrays... as much as I could with an 80 wpc amp and yes the cabinets were noticeably excited... but far less than many things in my listening room.


Widget

[joaquin]

Yamaha P5000S has 500W RMS per channel.


... you state somewhere else that moving this speaker with 0.5 watts is enough . Its impossible , and if you use 50watts or more it resonate . How can you expect to use 500W then and have good sound . :dont-know:




It seems that all Arrays vibrate.

Its curious that statement if the designer was looking for the opposite , don´t you believe?

Vibration on the woofer enclosure = distortion .

Vibration on the horn = "ringing" -> distortion -> ear fatigue .

I had several horns in the past , including a CDH . CDH is not for home . and 11K box should not resonate not in the horn not in the bass .

very strange .

[richluvsound]

I am not going to comment on all that has been posted above, but I will say that as much as I like the 1400 Array speakers, I do not think they sound particularly great if insane SPLs are your goal. (I define insane as >105dB) If you really want to kick some butt at levels above 105dB with some degree of grace a 4" compression driver and one or more 15" woofers per channel is needed in my opinion. The Everest II is in this category as is the venerable 4350/55... both of these loudspeakers will play back at absolutely stupid sound pressure levels and sound good doing it. I rarely if ever listen at anything approaching these levels any more and therefore the 1400 Array maintains it's composure for me and sounds pretty darned good.

FWIW: A few minutes ago I did turn up my 1400 Arrays... as much as I could with an 80 wpc amp and yes the cabinets were noticeably excited... but far less than many things in my listening room.


Widget



this is why I said " if I wanted a party speaker I would have kept my 4345's "

thanks for cutting to the core of the debate ;)

[hjames]

you know, the way some folks in this thread are absolutely disputing the designer of the speakers, I'd almost think there is trolling going on in this thread.

There are so many pro sound speakers that would really work better for a high volume application ...

Why would anyone run a pair of array 1400s at crazy loud sound levels.
Not that you can't, but considering the money involved and all of that, why would you.

If that's what they want to do, more power to them - but they don't need my support for such behavior.

[Robh3606]

this is why I said " if I wanted a party speaker I would have kept my 4345's "



It's nice to have both. The mains in my HT can do 105db all day and not break a sweet. Gives me lots of clean headroom on movies. That said I never run them that loud. I was just playing my Arrays up there and I gave out before they did. Was hitting 108db peaks on the spl meter. I can't for the life of me understand how the sonoglass horn could be vibrating all that much. Mine sure don't.

Rob:)

[dcolak]

It's nice to have both. The mains in my HT can do 105db all day and not break a sweet. Gives me lots of clean headroom on movies. That said I never run them that loud. I was just playing my Arrays up there and I gave out before they did. Was hitting 108db peaks on the spl meter. I can't for the life of me understand how the sonoglass horn could be vibrating all that much. Mine sure don't.

Rob:)

You have DYI Arrays or the ones from the JBL? Maybe it's in the way they are connected to the bass enclosure?

The top part of the enclosure is covered with sonoglass and as Widget described, they get rather excited with 80W :)

I'm perfectly happy with Arrays.

They'll do an ocasional party well, not as well as Klipsch RF-83 but, who cares.

99.99% of time I am not using more than 1W of my Yamaha P5000s.

[dcolak]

... you state somewhere else that moving this speaker with 0.5 watts is enough . Its impossible , and if you use 50watts or more it resonate . How can you expect to use 500W then and have good sound . :dont-know:

Maybe because the sole fact that an amplifier has 500W RMS does not mean I have to use all 500W RMS. ;)

[dcolak]

you know, the way some folks in this thread are absolutely disputing the designer of the speakers, I'd almost think there is trolling going on in this thread.

There are so many pro sound speakers that would really work better for a high volume application ...

Why would anyone run a pair of array 1400s at crazy loud sound levels.
Not that you can't, but considering the money involved and all of that, why would you.

Feeding 98W RMS into Arrays is a high volume application?

I beg to differ, 98W RMS into a 89db/1w/1m with a 200+W RMS woofer should not be that much of a big deal.

I think we have this thread resolved.

Mr. Widget confirmed that his enclosures get excited rather well with 80W RMS so... I think we're experiencing the same thing and my pair of Arrays most probably is perfectly well within the design parameters.

We also resolved the "problem" of the Chris Isaak's Blue spanish sky recording that has his voice divided in two registers - bad production.

If you have an oportunity, give those babies 80W RMS and put your hand on the back of the horn or anywhere on the enclosure. It'll surprise you :)

I'll go back to enjoying Arrays, when the recording is well made, they sound most impressive.

[hjames]

Feeding 98W RMS into Arrays is a high volume application?

I beg to differ, 98W RMS into a 89db/1w/1m with a 200+W RMS woofer should not be that much of a big deal.

I'll go back to enjoying Arrays, when the recording is well made, they sound most impressive.

It really depends on the efficiency, doesn't it ...
Its not the wattage, its the volume level - Where do you have your level pot set?
I run my biamped 4 ways with roughly 400w speaker, but I never turn them up much so I never get them very loud.

[grumpy]

Glad you've sorted this out to your satisfaction.

Re: "We also resolved the "problem" of the Chris Isaak's Blue spanish sky recording that has his voice divided in two registers - bad production."

I'll just comment that "bad" or otherwise, you were likely
hearing further "into" the recording (I can't know the
producer's intent), but generally I'd say this a good thing.

Congrats on some fine speakers.

[Titanium Dome]

Congrats on some fine speakers.

Yes, enjoy them for what they are, not for what they aren't.

We just got back from the Long Beach Symphony's Cirque de la Symphonie pops performance, and there's no speaker made that will recreate that experience. Then we wandered over to the Gay Pride Celebration ("Don't you effin' look at me!!!" [Dennis Hopper, Blue Velvet]) for some Pit Bull, and no speaker will recreate that either!

I'm just glad I survived the freakin' Rapture and get to live through several months of Hell on Earth before the total destruction of the planet on October 6th. Oh, wait a minute... I didn't get taken up into Heaven did I? Oops, screwed again. :biting:

I'll spend the next four months just being happy with the JBLs I've got I guess. :dont-know:

[1audiohack]

I'm just glad I survived the freakin' Rapture and get to live through several months of Hell on Earth before the total destruction of the planet on October 6th. Oh, wait a minute... I didn't get taken up into Heaven did I? Oops, screwed again. :biting:

I'll spend the next four months just being happy with the JBLs I've got I guess. :dont-know:

That dates just another misunderstanding, fear not, a destroyer no more, it's just the anniversary of when I came to earth. ;)

[richluvsound]

A final suggestion ,

get rid of the Yamaha amp or bi-amp with your valves . If you are going to use a digital format ,get something like the Amarra software . Dump the Squeeze box and get a Mac book Pro or 1TB mini Mac .Hey ,make it even easier and use something like the Olive 4 or 6 . Or sell the Cambridge and get a dedicated DAC .

BTW , have you looked to see the gear the owners of the Array here are using ?

You obviously have the cash , spend it.

Good luck

[pos]

get something like the Amarra software

http://www.sonicstudio.com/amarra/productoverview.html

$695 for a software media player :eek:
C'mon, that can't be right?!!

[cooky1257]

So all we've managed to establish is that at high levels a loudspeaker box will vibrate, some with narrower /less surface area will vibrate less at LF than larger enclosures oh and the rather light backing box on the SAM1 horn also transmits some of this enclosure vibration.

It isn't a serious vibration however because we cant detect it masking the low level detail retrieval of the Arrays or imparting any notable boxy colourations.

Tannoy for one actually 'tunes' their enclosures to lose vibration using dmt technology-lossy adhesives that shift panel resonances out of the critical audio bands-place a hand on any panel when playing loud you will feel vibration-an equivalent birch ply box braced to hell will be coloured high up in the midband as all the bracing shifts these resonances higher in frequency where they do more damage.

Personally if I felt this way about speakers I'd sell them not post negative web chatter about speakers I was apparently still 'very happy with'.

[dcolak]

So all we've managed to establish is that at high levels a loudspeaker box will vibrate, some with narrower /less surface area will vibrate less at LF than larger enclosures oh and the rather light backing box on the SAM1 horn also transmits some of this enclosure vibration.

It isn't a serious vibration however because we cant detect it masking the low level detail retrieval of the Arrays or imparting any notable boxy colourations.

Tannoy for one actually 'tunes' their enclosures to lose vibration using dmt technology-lossy adhesives that shift panel resonances out of the critical audio bands-place a hand on any panel when playing loud you will feel vibration-an equivalent birch ply box braced to hell will be coloured high up in the midband as all the bracing shifts these resonances higher in frequency where they do more damage.

Personally if I felt this way about speakers I'd sell them not post negative web chatter about speakers I was apparently still 'very happy with'.

Hey hey hey, I'm perfectly happy with Arrays! I listened to Ravel Ultima2's and went "pfft, give me back my Arrays."

There is no negativity, I wrote it as it was.

They do vibrate (more than Klipsch RF-83 at the same Wrms), but as I mentioned in one of my posts, it does look like as if it was made intentionally that way.

I have no intention on selling my precious :D

Thank you all for clearing this up.

[dcolak]

A final suggestion ,

get rid of the Yamaha amp or bi-amp with your valves . If you are going to use a digital format ,get something like the Amarra software . Dump the Squeeze box and get a Mac book Pro or 1TB mini Mac .Hey ,make it even easier and use something like the Olive 4 or 6 . Or sell the Cambridge and get a dedicated DAC .

BTW , have you looked to see the gear the owners of the Array here are using ?

You obviously have the cash , spend it.

Good luck

Uh I have to disagree with you on most of what you wrote, I mean no disrespect. :)

Amarra software? I'm a software engineer, one of my products is PartyDJ, a music reproduction program. Amarra is the biggest tar of a snake oil I've seen in all my years in HiFi.

I don't mean to offend you, but, Amarra, an f'in DSP PLUGIN for iTunes?! It's a disgrace for our profession, what they are doing. RAM cached music playback?! Didn't they hear of disk caching mechanism that is part of the operating system and the harddisk itself?

Why dump SqueezeBox as a transport? It works as well if not even better than a Mac that has to run whole OSX just to stream the bytes to a spdif.

What does make me interested is to know how does Lavry DA10 sound or don't sound as some would say describing good DAC's.

[dcolak]

It really depends on the efficiency, doesn't it ...
Its not the wattage, its the volume level - Where do you have your level pot set?
I run my biamped 4 ways with roughly 400w speaker, but I never turn them up much so I never get them very loud.

The amplifier is 500W RMS per channel.

I have the pot set at -10dB which gives me 24.2V output into 6ohm (being fed with 2.1V input from Cambridge Audio 840C.)

24.2V into 6ohm ~ 97W RMS

It's just for the parties, day to day listening sees pot set at -30dB which gives me 2.4V into 6ohm ~ 0.96W RMS

Of course, taking the assumption that Array 1400 on the whole could be seen as a 6ohm speaker.

I'm no headbanger :D

[spkrman57]

Years ago I liked my music really loud, the louder the better.

Nowdays my 3 tube amps are: 6V6 PP UL @ 10 wpc, SEPentode EL34 @ 9 wpc and my favorite amp is 300B @ 8 wpc. I use SS amps for sub duty only.

I like high efficiency spkrs run by low powered tube amps in a smallish damped room!

Just my 2 cents worth!

Regards, Ron

[richluvsound]

Years ago I liked my music really loud, the louder the better.

Nowdays my 3 tube amps are: 6V6 PP UL @ 10 wpc, SEPentode EL34 @ 9 wpc and my favorite amp is 300B @ 8 wpc. I use SS amps for sub duty only.

I like high efficiency spkrs run by low powered tube amps in a smallish damped room!

Just my 2 cents worth!

Regards, Ron

Now I'm wet :D

[richluvsound]

http://www.sonicstudio.com/amarra/productoverview.html

$695 for a software media player :eek:
C'mon, that can't be right?!!

How do you say " BIT TORRENT" in French ?

[richluvsound]

" What does make me interested is to know how does Lavry DA10 sound or don't sound as some would say describing good DAC's."

You will find a lot of them for sale ;) the technology is 15 years old now ...

http://www.wyred4sound.com/webapps/site/74030/117839/shopping/shopping-plusB.html?find_groupid=18157

http://www.m2tech.biz/young.html



IMHO very good value for money !

[tom1040]

That the Array sounds harsh at high levels is new to me. I have driven them to extreme (in my ears) levels, and everything was still smooooth. Are you sure you are not listening to other shortcommings in your system (or room). Personally i would be skeptical at running a relativly cheap PA amplifier on that horn. It's ridicilously revealing.


I have the Arrays. I have noticed a profound change in presentation since I switched to a bit better electronics than I had before. I agree with timc, give these speakers high current ( as well as high power) and they will be able to put smiles on the people at your parties. As a matter of fact, the clean sound of these speakers (should) amaze you.

FWIW, my Arrays do have a bit of 'vibration'-(non audible) but IDGAF. :rockon2:

[dcolak]

Just a little update, I received a new pair of the Arrays.

What a surprise, looking into the box through the reflex port I noticed that the front baffle has dry, hard bitumen applied on the inside wall, while the old ones had nothing, just plain MDF with no damping material at all.

I guess the box should resonate much less now! :)

Be right back, gotta do some testing! :rockon2:

[dcolak]

Just a little update, I received a new pair of the Arrays.

What a surprise, looking into the box through the reflex port I noticed that the front baffle has dry, hard bitumen applied on the inside wall, while the old ones had nothing, just plain MDF with no damping material at all.

I guess the box should resonate much less now! :)

Be right back, gotta do some testing! :rockon2:

An update of an update.

The enclosures are resonating as always, front baffle in tune with the woofer.

Is there a reason not to have any damping foam on the inside of the enclosure's front baffle?