Why don't I like my JBL 240Ti's? Where are my highs?!

[rileysaudio]

I picked up a pair of JBL 240Ti's a few days ago for $675. They came with the original boxes and sales brochure and they looked like they were brand new. I had a pair of L100t3's before these and sold them thinking these should be a great upgrade. But, I'm just not enjoying these 240ti's. The midrange sounds kind of muffled, there is not near enough highs at all, and they just sound soft. I liked the L100t3's sharp, somewhat bright sound. These sound almost warmer than the Polk SDA's which I had a while back, and that's saying something. Is there something wrong with my 240ti's? Do the crossovers need a recap? Could I switch out the tweeter for a 035ti and get my highs back? I miss my L100t3's right now. The only thing I like more about the 240ti is the low end. I'm powering them with a NAD 216THX amp and 116 preamp. I used the same setup with the L100t3's. I'm sure the attenuators are at 0 and all the drivers are working. I'm quite disappointed. I definitely expected better for $300 more. Is there any way to fix this lack of high end, and the problem with the mids?

[hjames]

You bought used speakers - maybe there is something wrong with them - perhaps the tweeters are failing (they are more than a few years old, right?).
Maybe the caps have aged and are failing ...

Not trying to ding you, but that's always the problem with vintage systems - how do you know they are up to spec?

Also - you may just need to adjust to the different sound they produce -
to unlearn the brighter highs of the 035tia and learn the more subtle 044tis.

Don't go adding EQs or changing your system until you have had a chance to listen to a wider range of music through them.


I picked up a pair of JBL 240Ti's a few days ago for $675. They came with the original boxes and sales brochure and they looked like they were brand new. I had a pair of L100t3's before these and sold them thinking these should be a great upgrade. But, I'm just not enjoying these 240ti's. The midrange sounds kind of muffled, there is not near enough highs at all, and they just sound soft. I liked the L100t3's sharp, somewhat bright sound. These sound almost warmer than the Polk SDA's which I had a while back, and that's saying something. Is there something wrong with my 240ti's? Do the crossovers need a recap? Could I switch out the tweeter for a 035ti and get my highs back? I miss my L100t3's right now. The only thing I like more about the 240ti is the low end. I'm powering them with a NAD 216THX amp and 116 preamp. I used the same setup with the L100t3's. I'm sure the attenuators are at 0 and all the drivers are working. I'm quite disappointed. I definitely expected better for $300 more. Is there any way to fix this lack of high end, and the problem with the mids?

[rileysaudio]

I looked at the crossovers and with my inexperienced eyes, it looks like they are new. No bulging or leaking caps and everything looks intact. They were in storage for some of their life. First the seller's dad owned them, put them in storage, then his son bought them from him. That could've affected them though. I think it just might be the different tweeters that I'm getting used to. It also depends on the material. I just cranked up some Rush on them and they sounded perfect. I think I might be able to solve the problem with getting an equalizer just to boost the highs occasionally. I'm looking at DBX's 231. It is very nice and it fits my budget. Does this sound like a good idea? By the way, the 240ti's sounded much better than the L100t3's ever did when I cranked up the Rush on them. I think I should definitely keep them and give them a chance. I am still interested in what others have to say though.

[JeffW]

And I don't know that replacing an 044ti with an 035ti is a step up. Usually you'll see the 044ti replaced with an 035ti because the 044tis were shot or parted out, not because it was an upgrade. 044tis are kind hard to find, but there's threads on here about taking them apart and cleaning the gunkified foam from behind the dome.

Also, speaker shock may be in play. I was taken aback when I first listened to my 250tis, they sounded a lot different than the speakers they replaced. After a while I decided they actually sounded more natural, but not at first.

[JBL 4645]

Place each 240Ti side-by-side and play only wideband pink noise to evaluate whether its one of the drivers that have failed they should have equal tonal sound. Listen to each one in turn (with wideband pink noise only).

Also check wiring inside while pink noise plays and wiggle the wires around to see if something cuts out?



I looked at the crossovers and with my inexperienced eyes, it looks like they are new. No bulging or leaking caps and everything looks intact. They were in storage for some of their life. First the seller's dad owned them, put them in storage, then his son bought them from him. That could've affected them though. I think it just might be the different tweeters that I'm getting used to. It also depends on the material. I just cranked up some Rush on them and they sounded perfect. I think I might be able to solve the problem with getting an equalizer just to boost the highs occasionally. I'm looking at DBX's 231. It is very nice and it fits my budget. Does this sound like a good idea? By the way, the 240ti's sounded much better than the L100t3's ever did when I cranked up the Rush on them. I think I should definitely keep them and give them a chance. I am still interested in what others have to say though.

STOP! Don’t just stick 31 band EQ on it not without an RTA and microphone to first see the frequency response, before you commence to EQ. If you over boast the highs you’ll risk burning out the voice coil! EQ to a flat response.


Also, speaker shock may be in play. I was taken aback when I first listened to my 250tis, they sounded a lot different than the speakers they replaced. After a while I decided they actually sounded more natural, but not at first.

I agree with what Jeff says, it might take some getting used to after listening to the same loudspeakers for many years each one will produce a different tone but essentially you should EQ to get a flat response as possible.

ebay as many dbx 231 going at cheap rate (Buy now) its up to you! I think $179.99 is not bad the rest are mostly $199.99
http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?rt=nc&LH_BIN=1&_nkw=DBX+231&_trksid=p3286.c0.m301

[John]

I picked up a pair of JBL 240Ti's a few days ago for $675. They came with the original boxes and sales brochure and they looked like they were brand new. I had a pair of L100t3's before these and sold them thinking these should be a great upgrade. But, I'm just not enjoying these 240ti's. The midrange sounds kind of muffled, there is not near enough highs at all, and they just sound soft. I liked the L100t3's sharp, somewhat bright sound. These sound almost warmer than the Polk SDA's which I had a while back, and that's saying something. Is there something wrong with my 240ti's? Do the crossovers need a recap? Could I switch out the tweeter for a 035ti and get my highs back? I miss my L100t3's right now. The only thing I like more about the 240ti is the low end. I'm powering them with a NAD 216THX amp and 116 preamp. I used the same setup with the L100t3's. I'm sure the attenuators are at 0 and all the drivers are working. I'm quite disappointed. I definitely expected better for $300 more. Is there any way to fix this lack of high end, and the problem with the mids?

Did you happen to give them a listen to at the sellers abode ???:hmm:

[MyLittleViking]

These differences you are noticing are exactly what I initially noticed about these speakers. They are nothing at all like the JBL's of yesteryear. They have a very flat response. The muffled sound comes from the re-working of the crossover. Some will like this "improvement", some will not. The good news is that you have amazing drivers in those cabinets and the cabinets themselves are gorgeous.

I wound up going with active networks and completely eliminating the factory networks. Eventually I just sold them. They do have potential, but I seriously doubt you will ever enjoy them as much as your L100T3's without doing something radical to the crossovers. Just my .02.

[SEAWOLF97]

And I don't know that replacing an 044ti with an 035ti is a step up. Usually you'll see the 044ti replaced with an 035ti because the 044tis were shot or parted out, not because it was an upgrade. 044tis are kind hard to find, but there's threads on here about taking them apart and cleaning the gunkified foam from behind the dome.

Also, speaker shock may be in play. I was taken aback when I first listened to my 250tis, they sounded a lot different than the speakers they replaced. After a while I decided they actually sounded more natural, but not at first.

its not just a matter of pulling the 044Ti out and replacing it with an 035Ti ...dont even consider it......I felt the same way as Jeff right after acquiring my 250Ti's, but a little EQ really helps. The 044 is a very capable tweet.

I started the aforementioned thread abt cleaning the gunkified foam from behind the dome* , from my reading its seems the 035 has the same problem , but that problem does not seem to greatly affect the sound. Many of us are not entirely sure what the foams purpose is :dont-know:

*tho it started as a "how to push the dome back out" thread

[DavidF]

I picked up a pair of JBL 240Ti's a few days ago for $675. They came with the original boxes and sales brochure and they looked like they were brand new. I had a pair of L100t3's before these and sold them thinking these should be a great upgrade. But, I'm just not enjoying these 240ti's. The midrange sounds kind of muffled, there is not near enough highs at all, and they just sound soft. I liked the L100t3's sharp, somewhat bright sound. These sound almost warmer than the Polk SDA's which I had a while back, and that's saying something. Is there something wrong with my 240ti's? Do the crossovers need a recap? Could I switch out the tweeter for a 035ti and get my highs back? I miss my L100t3's right now. The only thing I like more about the 240ti is the low end. I'm powering them with a NAD 216THX amp and 116 preamp. I used the same setup with the L100t3's. I'm sure the attenuators are at 0 and all the drivers are working. I'm quite disappointed. I definitely expected better for $300 more. Is there any way to fix this lack of high end, and the problem with the mids?

There should not be a big drop off in highs, perceived brightness, between the two systems. Maybe there is something amiss.

The 240Ti has switches in the xover for attentuation. Give these a look and some contact cleaner. Cycle them a few times to break away some potential crud on the contacts. Same with the connectors on the mid and tweeter.

The 044Ti used some foam behind the dome for damping. That is surely turned to goo by now. Mine did. It could (repeat could) get down into the gap and create some response issues. Taking these apart is not difficult but admittedly not a casual exercise, either. Plus, as far as I know the rebuild kits are no longer made. So some good cleaning and a jury rigged damper are in order.

Probably not very encouraging with this prospect of some R&R on this older system. But I would offer these 240Tis are worth the effort.

[Mr. Widget]

Also, speaker shock may be in play. I was taken aback when I first listened to my 250tis, they sounded a lot different than the speakers they replaced. After a while I decided they actually sounded more natural, but not at first.I like that term... Speaker Shock. You may be the Alvin Toffler of Audio. ;)

But seriously, this is a concept that has been studied at Harman and their research has concluded that accuracy is paramount and ultimately is what most people want; however it doesn't explain the phenomenal success of Bose and countless audio systems that have sold well and remain popular.

I personally feel that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" relates to audio as well and often it can take a lot of listening to learn how to appreciate aural beauty... that said, these 240Tis may flat out be dull... as Heather says, they were used after all.


Widget

[slowpat]

You can't just expect the swap out the L100T3's and expect the same level of output from these 240Ti's. The 240Ti's and 250Ti's love power, so if you have a larger amp, try that with the 240Ti's. I was driving my pair of L100T's with a rebuilt Sansui AU-717, for example, and swap the 240Ti's in there, and everything seemed muted. I'm now driving the 240Ti's with a 250wpc Marantz Model 500, and things opened up. I have read about others using a 350wpc amp with really good results. And as GordonW explained on another forum, the 240Ti's are voiced to be more neutral, so you should give them a chance (a few weeks of listen.) I did miss my L100T's after I switched over as well.

[4313B]

Of course there is the flip side of the coin too. I heard the 240Ti before I heard the L100T which is probably why I never cared for the L100T or its improved successor the L100t3.

[jbl_daddy]

Power is the key, I had a pair of L100t3's powered by a pair of mono crown ps-200's. They sounded great. Changed to the 250ti's and the speakers sounded dead... changed amps to a pair of dc300's, twice the.power and have been happy ever since. Currently I am using an hk citation 16 that I have been very happy with. Dump the reciver, and try some good clean power.

[BMWCCA]

Power is the key, I had a pair of L100t3's powered by a pair of mono crown ps-200's. They sounded great. Changed to the 250ti's and the speakers sounded dead... changed amps to a pair of dc300's, twice the.power and have been happy ever since.

You can't minimize the importance of power. At one of our Mid-Atlantic Listening Parties we'd been enjoying listening to Opimax's L250/Ti projects off and on with his B460 sub(s) and a brace (+ one for the sub) of Perreaux (IIRC) amps for some time when we dragged my portable pair of L7s into the living room. At some point we decided to hook the 250s to my Crown PS400 (190wpc) I had in the car. The 250s became lifeless and thin. I blamed the amp. Partly correct. There's nothing "clinical" about the Crowns in my other systems but some speakers just need more power to do their thing.

I run my 4345s bi-amped with a Crown DC300A-II and a D150A-II. It sounds wonderful in my room. That's about 175wpc on the bottom and 95wpc on top. I run L7s with a single PS400 and like that result. The same or similar amps just didn't do the job with the 250's and my interpolation of those results would have me not condemning your 240ti's until you've had the chance to hear them with adequate power. The 240ti is rated at a "max" power of 300 per channel. Conventional wisdom and some JBL literature would suggest that as the minimum to give you the headroom to let them perform at their best.

Keep your receiver as a front-end if you want but get a good power amp for these speakers and report back! ;)

[rileysaudio]

Do you guys have any recommendations for a nice sounding, powerful amplifier I could find used for under $500? How would a Crown XTI-2000 do?

[BMWCCA]

... would a Crown XTI-2000 do?Not really a hi-fi amp, though some here have used them. You do have the fans to contend with. Personally, I'd try a PS-400 or two of them bridged. Won't cost much more than a new XTI-2000, if that. But then I'm a Crown-centric guy after over forty-years of using them. Some others here would push you in the Adcom direction, with good results, I'm sure. There are even some BGW promoters here but they don't come up as often. :dont-know:

[SEAWOLF97]

Some others here would push you in the Adcom direction, with good results, I'm sure. There are even some BGW promoters here but they don't come up as often. :dont-know:

Thx for the intro :D

when I had the 250Ti's on the Adcom GFA-555 (only 200wpc) they were very responsive & dynamic ....but I needed that amp for other uses ...they are now pushed by a BGW 750D (375wpc) and that seems like the sweet setup . BGW is commercial and so doesn't have a big following among the consumer crowd. Downside is that many pro amps are going to have 1/4 TRS or XLR inputs only...no silly RCA's ;)

oh yeah, they were also stellar on the Marantz 2385 (185wpc)..I think a key might be the damping rate (better than 50 to 1) to control the LE14's ...EQ doesn't hurt either, if applied sparingly.

[Eaulive]

Not really a hi-fi amp, though some here have used them. You do have the fans to contend with. Personally, I'd try a PS-400 or two of them bridged. Won't cost much more than a new XTI-2000, if that. But then I'm a Crown-centric guy after over forty-years of using them. Some others here would push you in the Adcom direction, with good results, I'm sure. There are even some BGW promoters here but they don't come up as often. :dont-know:

The fans start only when hot, and their speed is relative to the heat.
The issue with this amp is that it's not a full analog path. The signal goes through a ADC, DSP and DAC before entering the actual amplifier circuit.
This creates a very small latency so if you're using it biamped with another kind of amplifier it can become very noticeable.

It's a good amp for SR and I guess when used in a home it should perform well, but you mileage may vary.

[jblsound]

Of course there is the flip side of the coin too. I heard the 240Ti before I heard the L100T which is probably why I never cared for the L100T or its improved successor the L100t3.

Yes, the Ti series was something completely different, and better. imo, there is no comparison between the models of the Ti series and ANY L100 variation.

But one doesn't just start swapping out one tweeter for another, or any driver, as far as that goes, that belong to a completely different speaker model and expect to get good results, as Rileysaudio wanted to do. Starting with the fact that the R/C circuits in the XO will be all wrong. Unless the 'swap' is from a JBL consumer driver to its JBL Pro equivalent, like replacing the LE5-9 with the 2105, or the 112A for a 2108, as I did when I built 3 L212 LCRs.