the search for a tube preamp

[Bern1]

Well, I've got a set of 4311 b's, a Crown PS200 on the way (thanks Triumph Don), now I'm looking for a tube preamp.

Preferably something from the same era or close to it, must have a phono stage, preferably with tone controls. Was thinking AR SP3 might fit the bill.

But I really have no idea and am open to suggestions. It could also be something modern, there seems to be a dizzying array of stuff out there. I'd also prefer something north american, to go with the other north american stuff in the chain. But that's not a deal breaker and price is a consideration too. Don't really want anything that outperforms the other gear in the chain.

Ok, once again, thanks for all suggestions that may be forthcoming!

Cheers,

Bernie

[jerry_rig]

The SP-3 is very nice. I've been thinking about parting with my SP-8. Many consider it a classic as well.

[Rolf]

Tubes need to be adjusted all the time. Why not go for a transistor pre? They can do a better job that a tube. Remember Mono?

[Bern1]

Thanks for the ideas and suggestions, keep them coming! There is a dizzying number of options out there. I realize I'm late to this party, gave up on a Marantz 7 and it seems even the SP3 is a rare and relatively expensive bird nowadays.

Just for a frame of reference, the last time I went out to get some good audio equipment it was 1980 and I bought a Quad 303 and a pair of Rogers LS35A's which I still have. But I've always also loved the big JBL sound and that's what I'm going for now....

I also know that a solid state pre is the logical choice, but being a tube guitar amp guy I've always been interested in tube stuff and it seems that a tube pre would get me at least halfway there. I've been entertaining an array of vintage tube guitar guitar amps for 40 years now and I think I can handle dealing with a pre but I'd really rather not get into buying, retubing and tweaking a couple of monobloc 4x EL34 amps...

Also, since this is a project that has no logical basis, I want to keep everything north american if I can. So, I'm now thinking along the the lines of a Dynaco PAS ....would that be a good match for the JBL's and Crown PS200? Seems affordable and tweakable....I can do some moderate tweaking.... what do you all think?

Thanks, cheers and goodnight!

Bernie

[Cooljjay]

Its hard to find a good tube preamp. I've not had much luck finding many different choices. It seems by far the most popular are the PAS units, I have like 5 of them. I am currently using a eico HF-85 pre, it does sound nice but the dual volume pot is a PITA. It sounds nice but getting the channels equal with the dual volume is a pain. At higher volumes it is fine but at lower its horrible. I am going to switch over to a Lafayette KT600. These are suppose to be excellent pre amps from what I have read. They were designed by stewart hegeman and are side to be on the same levels of the citation and marantz 7. One problem you face with vintage tube pre amps is that they won't accept any of the newer high end AV cables. I want to use a pair of monster cables between the amps and pre, I had to eliminate the mic input in order to make enough room to add new connectors. Also they will always need to be rebuilt, the tubes are usually always good but capacitors and selenium rectifiers are always bad after sitting for 20+ years.

[Ruediger]

If You want tube sound: why not place an effect box in the tape loop?

SPL Channel One
SPL Tube Vitalizer

It has the advantage that You can remove the boxes from the signal path.

ruediger

[martin_wu99]

Just to try VTL and Manley tube,they are studio gear:D

[speakerdave]

I don't have a sense of what your budget might be except noting the components already chosen. Frankly I don't think it makes a great deal of difference what preamp you use, except that I think tubes are a good idea because they will soften high frequencies a little. The Dynaco PAS 2 and 3 preamps are OK; I've used them in past decades. I think you want a PAS 3X with a solid state amp. As with some other preamps that have been mentioned, they are all quite old, not having been made since the mid-seventies and most of them that are around are older than that. The problem I see with them is that they are often bid up so high, because they are the subject of many mod scenarios, that other choices become reasonable, like the earlier Conrad Johnson PV series, like the PV-2, which I have used and liked.

I agree with an earlier poster that the Audio Research SP8, my current preamp, is a fine preamp, but perhaps more than you are planning on spending.

For solid state I would suggest Marantz (3300) or GAS Thalia; the latter I've used and liked. A lot of that old equipment is not plug and play anymore, and should be checked out by a competent (and sympathetic) technician.

[Rolf]

Maybe this is a "step aside". But: why is there so many that refuses to accept that the world goes on? All the talk about Tubes no days is making me crazy. So does Vinyl vs CD/DVD.

I remember when the discussion was about Mono vs Stereo. Many claimed that Mono was much better than stereo.

Isn't listening to music about getting "Closer To The Truth"? I know it is impossible to get the "truth" in my (our) home. But it is a fact that Tubes have much distortion that a good Solid State Amp. Regarding Speakers, not much have changed. These still have to push and pull air. Of course things have been better here to.

So why?

[hjames]

Maybe this is a "step aside". But: why is there so many that refuses to accept that the world goes on? All the talk about Tubes no days is making me crazy. So does Vinyl vs CD/DVD.

I remember when the discussion was about Mono vs Stereo. Many claimed that Mono was much better than stereo.

Isn't listening to music about getting "Closer To The Truth"? I know it is impossible to get the "truth" in my (our) home. But it is a fact that Tubes have much distortion that a good Solid State Amp. Regarding Speakers, not much have changed. These still have to push and pull air. Of course things have been better here to.

So why?

So if you don't like the tube sound - let those that do enjoy their discussions!
Why are you jumping in with the same tired comments every time someone says "Tubes".

I think high price speakers wires are a scam, and I have an engineering background, but if you like using fancy wire, go ahead, buy it and enjoy it. Please note I don't attack you every time you bring up high priced wire. And I won't debate it now!

Its just an audio preference - there is no single right choice ...

[Eaulive]

So why?

http://www.yorkville.com/default.asp?p1=6&p2=17&p_id=72

Scroll down to "Audiophile signal processing" (both of them) :D

[badman]

Maybe this is a "step aside". But: why is there so many that refuses to accept that the world goes on? All the talk about Tubes no days is making me crazy. So does Vinyl vs CD/DVD.

I remember when the discussion was about Mono vs Stereo. Many claimed that Mono was much better than stereo.

Isn't listening to music about getting "Closer To The Truth"? I know it is impossible to get the "truth" in my (our) home. But it is a fact that Tubes have much distortion that a good Solid State Amp. Regarding Speakers, not much have changed. These still have to push and pull air. Of course things have been better here to.

So why?

Harmonic distortion is not a major issue most of the time, and particularly not within preamps. And if you've heard CD vs. Vinyl on a credible system, there's no comparison. Vinyl has a much better top end- and the bandwidth to match (some LPs go up to 50k).

One dimensional "progress" numbers like THD are pretty useless in the real world, they're not well correlated to our hearing mechanism. Some more in-depth specifications hit nearer the mark, but this stuff isn't often contained in the "Specs" blurb. Anyone relying on these needs to be hit over the head with an early 80s SS amp- the distortion wars produced some pretty terrible sounding amps.

[Mr. Widget]

Maybe this is a "step aside". But: why is there so many that refuses to accept that the world goes on? All the talk about Tubes no days is making me crazy. So does Vinyl vs CD/DVD.Simplistically your argument makes a lot of sense, and there are no doubt many examples that could be made that would validate your point, that said, I think a good analogy can be made using photography as an example. Compare an antique wooden 8 by 10 field camera with a top quality lens and a Hasselblad 2.25" camera with either a film or digital back... the antique camera will produce images of greater fidelity even though it may be 50 or more years old and the Hasselblad, which is truly excellent and brand new will not have the same resolution.

The really good analog gear from the past, both tube and solid state can be superior to the most up to date digital or mass produced solid state analog gear.

I certainly am not saying that tubes or vinyl are inherently better, in fact tube gear and vinyl playback must be really pretty high quality to surpass decent solid state gear and pretty average CD players, but in my opinion the very best of those "antique" technologies is better than most of the modern versions.


Widget

[Cooljjay]

I just like tube system and older speakers. Has nothing to do with sonic, fidelity, quality etc. I just like it. Its easy to repair, its gorgeous to look at glowing tubes, matches my decor, and was all hand made in the USA. Another thing I enjoy about tube sound, is its a lot mellower then solid state. I don't like bass, I don't need a 400watt system. SS is like being punched in the face with bass, tubed gear is very mellow and the music is very warm. A lot of the music I listen to was recorded with tube gear and was never released on CD. Its like 78rpm records, I love the sound of them but I play them on a crank up phonograph. They sound horrible on a modern record player. Every body has their preference, my god do you know how many people out there think Bose speakers are quality? I constantly pick up great sounding vintage speakers because they are to big and they just upgraded to a bose system or surround sound. And as far as Vinyl they are hotter then they ever were in my mind. I use to be the only one digging through the record bins...now there are sooo many people that I don't even bother.

[Bern1]

Thanks for all the comments, it is all fascinating. I can see some parallels to the world of vintage tube guitar amps, with which I am more familiar.

To address some questions, and to refine the search somewhat: this entire adventure is not too serious in nature. That is, I am after a "vintage" listening experience with this 70's 80's 90's? mixed bag of American speakers and solid state power amp and hopefully a tube pre.

I do want to listen to vinyl, so the preamp must have that capability. Having said that, my vinyl collection is 30-40 years old, has been listened to a lot and is not necessarily in the best shape. Neither are my ears....many hours of playing electric guitars in bands playing louder than we should have. The turntable I will be using is not superb in any way, nor am I planning on using any exotic cartridge...a plain vanilla MM(?) like the 20 some year old Grado3 in my Denon turntable would be fine....assuming the Grado3 is a MM cartridge, I can't even say I know or would recognize the difference between MM and MC. Cost is certainly an issue, which is why I'm wandering down from Marantz 7c territory.

I hope this helps clarify what I'm looking for....a pleasant listening experience rather than a lustful chase after every nuance...

I don't see the point in having any one component's capabilities exceed any of the others. So far I can see a Dynaco PAS 3 as a good candidate. Somebody suggested the X model would be better for a SS power amp, why would that be?

I like the idea of tone controls, but it seems the PAS mods eliminate them?

My question now is: considering the above, is the PAS a good choice? Is one model better than another? Is a modified PAS a better choice (would I hear the difference with my 4311's and Crown PS200?), or would I be ok with stock for what I'm after?

I hope this clarifies what direction I'm heading in.

Thanks again for all the help and comments both past,present and future!

Bernie

[Mr. Widget]

I do want to listen to vinyl, so the preamp must have that capability. Having said that, my vinyl collection is 30-40 years old, has been listened to a lot and is not necessarily in the best shape. Neither are my ears....many hours of playing electric guitars in bands playing louder than we should have. The turntable I will be using is not superb in any way, nor am I planning on using any exotic cartridge...a plain vanilla MM(?) like the 20 some year old Grado3 in my Denon turntable would be fine....assuming the Grado3 is a MM cartridge, I can't even say I know or would recognize the difference between MM and MC. Cost is certainly an issue, which is why I'm wandering down from Marantz 7c territory.If you can't afford a better tube job, like a 7C... and they are going for some amazing prices these days, you will likely sacrifice signal to noise ratio and hum in one of the lesser vintage tube pres... if you don't mind a bit of noise and really want that vintage feel go for it. Personally while I really appreciate an excellent tube preamp, I would go with a Solid State model if I couldn't find a top flight model within my budget.


Widget

[Bern1]

If you can't afford a better tube job, like a 7C... and they are going for some amazing prices these days, you will likely sacrifice signal to noise ratio and hum in one of the lesser vintage tube pres... if you don't mind a bit of noise and really want that vintage feel go for it. Personally while I really appreciate an excellent tube preamp, I would go with a Solid State model if I couldn't find a top flight model within my budget.


Widget

Got it, thanks for your thoughts. Vintage feel is it on this system. I do have a couple of other stereo sets that have good ss preamps, this one is for pure nostalgia in the present tense!

[Audiobeer]

The poster has a pair of 4311Bs. Nice speakers by the way, for what they are. That being said a good tube preamp that will enhance his system and not take away from it will equal the cost of 4 or 5 sets of 4311's to start. If your looking for a good vintage preamp and want to stay in the peroid of the 4311s and don't want to spend more than a few hundred you'll have to go with SS. Oh yeah.......in my humble opinion. :)

[Bern1]

The poster has a pair of 4311Bs. Nice speakers by the way, for what they are. That being said a good tube preamp that will enhance his system and not take away from it will equal the cost of 4 or 5 sets of 4311's to start. If your looking for a good vintage preamp and want to stay in the peroid of the 4311s and don't want to spend more than a few hundred you'll have to go with SS. Oh yeah.......in my humble opinion. :)

Understood Audiobeer, you speak with the voice of Reason and the "reasonable" side of me concurs.......but the crazy side of me wants to experience a wee bit of tube audio listening before the big hearse carries me off without a trailer hitch....

Who knows, maybe I'll be so bitten with a taste I'll sell off a bunch of vintage guitars and tube guitar amps to take a bigger bite of the apple!

[badman]

Understood Audiobeer, you speak with the voice of Reason and the "reasonable" side of me concurs.......but the crazy side of me wants to experience a wee bit of tube audio listening before the big hearse carries me off without a trailer hitch....

Who knows, maybe I'll be so bitten with a taste I'll sell off a bunch of vintage guitars and tube guitar amps to take a bigger bite of the apple!


If your needs are simple... the Bottlehead Quickie can be had for $99.... or $200 or so with all the bells and whistles. Just gotta sling a touch of solder. Word has it it sounds pretty good!

[Mr. Widget]

If your needs are simple... the Bottlehead Quickie can be had for $99.... or $200 or so with all the bells and whistles. Just gotta sling a touch of solder. Word has it it sounds pretty good!Good call... I think he is going to go for an original Bottlehead "Foreplay" kit that is in that same price range.


Widget

[Bern1]

Good call... I think he is going to go for an original Bottlehead "Foreplay" kit that is in that same price range.


Widget


Done deal, now need a phono stage.....tube or ss? Why or why not?

Anybody have an old Bottlehead phono stage kit laying around? Built or not...doesn't matter. Or maybe some other tube phono stage kit? I'm looking for a good match for this original Foreplay.

As always, thanks for the time you spend crafting a response for somebody who knows virtually nothing about this stuff, what fun it is for me to learn!

Cheers all!

Bernie

[Krunchy]

Tubes need to be adjusted all the time. Why not go for a transistor pre? They can do a better job that a tube. Remember Mono?
Hi Rolf!
I am sorry but I have to dissagree with you on that, at least as far as integrated tube amps go (at least the "newer ones", I dont know about pre-amps first hand). I have a few tube amps and a couple of hybrid integrated amps that dont need any adjusting at all. Personally I love the sound of tube amps, I've been playing with a couple of jolida models which are not crazy expensive at all and I have to say that they are really clean sounding and produce a lovely quality of music.

Dont forget that sound can often be quite subjective as we all know. I have quite a few good ss amps as well and obviously there is a difference in the sound they reproduce but that is not a bad thing. "We've" (by that I mean the members of the forum) had this discussion before even the vinyl vs cd and the bottom line is we all have varying tastes in what we like. To make a blanket statement like that I dont think is fair.
I have a jolida 102B amp which is not a boutique tube amp (price wise) but the thing sounds pretty damn good to me. lately I've been switching out the stock tubes (electro-harmonix, which are not horrible but you can do better) with some NOS tubes and the difference is incredible. They are very detailed, crisp, clean and not lacking in bass at all. This particular amp only has to be biased/adjusted once or maybe twice a year if that, an exercise which takes all of 1 minute. I have also been rolling some NOS tubes into the hybrid amps with incredible results, the vincent sv-236 has never sounded better, it blows away anything else I have at the moment which includes some adcom 5802As, crown ps 400 and some other ss amps. I still like the sound of ss, in particular I like the adcom on the LF for the 4345s but the tube amps are no slouch, period.

This, of course, is my own personal opinion & preference, I love tubes & I dont feel like I am loosing anything by using them, on the contraray, I feel that I have increased my enjoyment of music with them.
My point is (not to attack you :)) that Bern1 might actually have a genetic and or medical pre-desposition to tubes :D hence his desire to look into a tube pre amp.

Bern1, I dont know what your budget for this pre amp is but I am sure there is something out there that just might be what you are looking for, if not you can always sell it & look into getting one of the many ss pre amps that have been discussed on this forum which I myself would not mind auditioning.

Enjoy the hunt, thats half the fun :)

[martin_wu99]

Tubes need to be adjusted all the time. Why not go for a transistor pre? They can do a better job that a tube. Remember Mono?
Rolf,who told you that?you must take things people say with grain of salt:banghead::D
BTW,i like your big dog:applaud:

[Rolf]

I just remember having an Audio Research Tube amp, and on it there was meeter's and there was pots that needed to be adjusted to set the meters at a certain point so the amp should sound the best it could. This was needed quite often.

Anyway, sorry to break in here and destroy the discussion. I'm out.


Rolf,who told you that?you must take things people say with grain of salt:banghead::D
BTW,i like your big dog:applaud:

[martin_wu99]

I just remember having an Audio Research Tube amp, and on it there was meeter's and there was pots that needed to be adjusted to set the meters at a certain point so the amp should sound the best it could. This was needed quite often.

Anyway, sorry to break in here and destroy the discussion. I'm out.
Just joking:eek:,the discussion need you:dont-know:

[Cooljjay]

I just remember having an Audio Research Tube amp, and on it there was meeter's and there was pots that needed to be adjusted to set the meters at a certain point so the amp should sound the best it could. This was needed quite often.

Those pots are found on a lot of tube amplifiers not pre amps. They are to adjust the BIAS on each tube. But you can find fixed BIAS amps that need no adjusting at all. You just have to make sure all the resistor/capacitors are up to spec. Some better pre amps do need to be adjusted but the adjustment is for line level. It took me awhile to adjust the line levels but once set it is fine. Tube amps and pre amps are just so pretty to look at too :D They also keep the listening room nice and toast on those cold days :p

[martin_wu99]

I just remember having an Audio Research Tube amp, and on it there was meeter's and there was pots that needed to be adjusted to set the meters at a certain point so the amp should sound the best it could. This was needed quite often.

Anyway, sorry to break in here and destroy the discussion. I'm out.
Rolf,follow me studying Chenglish:eek:

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[Mctwins]

Tubes need to be adjusted all the time. Why not go for a transistor pre? They can do a better job that a tube. Remember Mono?

What?????? My tube preamp wich is McIntosh C2300 has none of adjustments what so ever. The best preamp I ever owned. As for my McIntosh amps MC275 there is no adjustments as well.

If someone want tube pre this would be the one.

Thanks