Altec 604-8g cabinet help

[juniper48]

Wondering if someone could help with cabinet dimensions? I have a some altec 604-8g's that need cabinets. Unfortunetly I have to place them on top of altec model 19's to save space. My plan is to use the width and depth of the 19's as the base dimensions. Using 3/4 baltic birch and modeling the cabinets after the 620's 9^3 interior space, would a 30wx19dx34h come close to the recommended cubic feet of the 620 box.

Thanks for any help, and thanks to all for the posts that you all have placed on this site.

[miker]

With all due respect, are you saying you don't know how to calculate the volume of the cabinet you have shown dimensions for?

[juniper48]

With all due respect, are you saying you don't know how to calculate the volume of the cabinet you have shown dimensions for?
I guess I was looking for some reassurance that is all, or maybe some ideas from speaker builders who know a lot more than I. This would be a fairly wide cabinet so it might not be a good idea.

[miker]

Okay, the volume works out pretty well. The cabinet will need some internal bracing due to the size of the panels. It's going to be very heavy and I myself would not want to set it on top of a pair of Altec 19's. If you decide to sit them directly on the floor, then the height of the driver ends of being lower than optimum. Seems like a lot of work for a compromised cabinet design. Just my opinion.

[juniper48]

Okay, the volume works out pretty well. The cabinet will need some internal bracing due to the size of the panels. It's going to be very heavy and I myself would not want to set it on top of a pair of Altec 19's. If you decide to sit them directly on the floor, then the height of the driver ends of being lower than optimum. Seems like a lot of work for a compromised cabinet design. Just my opinion.
It may be compromised, but in space I have, they have to go on top of 19's. Thanks for the input! I understand that the model 19's bases on many have rotted away and I assume that the material in the cabs is the same. Perhaps a large speaker on top makes little sense. Maybe there is a comprimise that works? Thanks for the input! I certainly appreciate it!

[Altec Best]

I'd go for it ! But keep in mind that the 604's are point source and they aren't real good off -axis.They were designed as studio monitors which for all intense of purposes they are or should be at ear level or pointing at your ears.The problem is the small sectoral horn on the 604.I have a pair in 612C cabinets and when they are placed at the right height,they sound Fabulous.Nothing sounds better than the LF and HF coming from the same center point, hence (Point Source Speaker) or Duplex.

Now for your other question you can make your cabinet as big as you want.Bigger is always better WRT the bass response "No Such Thing As A Too Big Of A Cabinet" as long as it is properly damped ! Cabinets are only for the LF anyway.The bigger the cabinet the better the bass output/response.Now if you could build some really strong cabinets and put them (604's)on the bottom with the 19's on top you will like the combo much better.But bring a few friends they aren't lite.

Here's a link for a Cabinet volume calculator from "Home Theater Shack" http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/enclosure-volume-calculator/


The 604 should always be at or pointing to your ears and Never above or below them ! Again the 604's small horn is terrible off -axis.
BTW: I have a pair of Cornwall's at the moment on top of my 19's and i have used the 612's with a 416 and a 1005/288 tar filled combo & tried the 604-8G's on top of the 19's too, and enjoyed them immensely.The Horns need some paint,but they sound good.The 604 wasn't as good so high above my ears though.When your space is limited, do what you have to, to achieve your goals. ;)

Kind Regards ~ AB

[juniper48]

Thanks for the response ALTEC BEST! I truly appreciate it! I think that I have changed my demands do to your's and the other messages I have received. For now I am thinking of the 612 type cabinet or the "big red" type. Until I have a better listening room and at that point, I may try one of the more modern, or a modular cabinet, that can be stacked with either a model 19 configuration/ 604 on the top or the bottom. As far as the big red cabinet I have not heard of anyone using this with 8-g's so I probably will go with the 612 so I can point upside down or right side up. Thanks for your input any other suggestions would also be well received. Thanks

[John]

I'd go for it ! But keep in mind that the 604's are point source and they aren't real good off -axis.They were designed as studio monitors which for all intense of purposes they are or should be at ear level or pointing at your ears.
The 604 should always be at or pointing to your ears and Never above or below them ! Again the 604's small horn is terrible off -axis.



Sounds like there about as usefull as a pair of headphones;)

[juniper48]

Sounds like there about as usefull as a pair of headphones;)
Funny how Jean Hiraga gets 20,000 for a pair with his cabinets and crossovers for these type of headphones?

[John]

Funny how Jean Hiraga gets 20,000 for a pair with his cabinets and crossovers for these type of headphones?

Not sure what that is supposed to tell us ,except there are people with more money to blow on headphone speakers than you or me!!!:crying:

I am not going to debate which speaker is the holy grail as there is no such thing, but if a speaker only provides accurate sound reproduction if you are lined in a perfect triangle at the precise elevation, well that is not much of a speaker. You should try standing up and walking around the room, If you can not get pleasure from the experience of hearing music thru out the room, are you really listening to the music or are you listening to the gear.:confused:

[theophile]

Not sure what that is supposed to tell us ,except there are people with more money to blow on headphone speakers than you or me!!!:crying:

I am not going to debate which speaker is the holy grail as there is no such thing, but if a speaker only provides accurate sound reproduction if you are lined in a perfect triangle at the precise elevation, well that is not much of a speaker. You should try standing up and walking around the room, If you can not get pleasure from the experience of hearing music thru out the room, are you really listening to the music or are you listening to the gear.:confused:

Consider it as a car which will give you the thrill of a lifetime on winding,twisty,snaky roads which challenge any car,but which feels too harsh and fussy driving about the suburbs.As a day to day prospect it could be a challenge.For those snaking,winding climbs up and down mountains there is nothing like it.

You don't live for the suburban drive,now do you?

If he likes them,who should question it? :confused:

[John]

Consider it as a car which will give you the thrill of a lifetime on winding,twisty,snaky roads which challenge any car,but which feels too harsh and fussy driving about the suburbs.As a day to day prospect it could be a challenge.For those snaking,winding climbs up and down mountains there is nothing like it.

You don't live for the suburban drive,now do you?

If he likes them,who should question it? :confused:

I can't understand the connection between a car and a speaker system.:confused:

[theophile]

I can't understand the connection between a car and a speaker system.:confused:

You have my sympathies.

[Altec Best]

Sounds like there about as usefull as a pair of headphones;)

A statement like that says one thing ! Absolutely No Experience with the 604 at all !;)

Until you have had the opportunity to audition a clean pair,then I would refrain from commenting because are you trying to help him or criticize his speakers.The gentleman was looking for assistance.The 604-8G's setup in a small room sound Fabulous IMHO.See I was trying to help because I have both 19's & 604G's.Awesome clarity and is why the 604's were a staple in recording studios for such a long time.

This is the pair I had got awhile back and was cleaning them up, have since put new grill cloth on them, and I'm going to repainted them . :D

50591

[John]

A statement like that says one thing ! Absolutely No Experience with the 604 at all !;)

Until you have had the opportunity to audition a clean pair,then I would refrain from commenting because are you trying to help him or criticize his speakers.



I was only replying to your statement where you mentioned if your not perfectly in alignment with the 604 horn they are somewhat lacking.

I think you said "aren't really good off-axis"

:dont-know:

[John]

A statement like that says one thing ! Absolutely No Experience with the 604 at all !;)

See I was trying to help because I have both 19's & 604G's.Awesome clarity and is why the 604's were a staple in recording studios for such a long time.


If by experience you mean listening, I have heard 3 different pairs of 604G's in 3 different rooms and have a pair of 19's in service for over 10 years. I think studios started using them for there sound output which can be argued to mean clarity, but then only continued because engineers became accustomed to there sound even thou it was not accurate. A long came the JBL 4310 and now you have a smaller package with the same sound and studios dropped the Altec:)

[John]

I never said JBL was better than Altec. I have both:bouncy:

[juniper48]

Thanks, for all of the advice! I built some 612 cabs for testing. I have only been exploring the world of audio for about a year and a half and the one thing I have learned is that none of my speakers that I have owned as of late sound like my 604's as I remember them. They have been sitting for over 15yrs and I still miss them! I also no that none of the speakers I own can do everything. I bought a pair of bose 901 VI (for 29.00$ couldn't pass it up). I also own a pair of Model 19's and cornwalls. All these speakers are very different and all sound ok with the right type of music. Even the 901's with really poor early recordings sound better than the others I have mentioned. When I get some 250Ti's maybe? they will be the "ones" Thanks again

[Altec Best]

Wow that was fast,you built them already ?

[juniper48]

Wow that was fast,you built them already ?
These are just test cab's so they went together fairly quickly! Lots of glue and airnails, and 2 tubes of silicone on the inside! Now I just have to sand them and put them together. I am pretty excited to hear them, they should be done in a few days!!!!!!!

[Altec Best]

Here they are,inside bracing and bevel of the 612C,these are 1975-76 vintage.Don't forget the bevel in the driver opening.It is for the 604.Any full range driver should have this bevel for the Eigenmodes(Normal Mode)Thanks GM .Don't forget also, that all braces in this cabinet, or any cab for that matter should be mounted on end/edge, and not laid flat.There is Less Flex this way.So the result is a more rigid,less resonate cabinet.You should never use nails either,after a period of time,the vibrating will cause them to loosen.The less screws the better also too.If you can avoid using mechanical fasteners you will have a better cabinet in the end.Just use Lots of clamps & glue!


Hope This Helps You Out ! BTW: I would like to very much see some pics if you can on your new cabs !

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu255/Altec_Best/612C%20w416-8Bs%20%20%201005As%20w288-8Gs/HPIM2250.jpg

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu255/Altec_Best/612C%20w416-8Bs%20%20%201005As%20w288-8Gs/HPIM2251.jpg

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu255/Altec_Best/612C%20w416-8Bs%20%20%201005As%20w288-8Gs/HPIM2255.jpg

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu255/Altec_Best/612C%20w416-8Bs%20%20%201005As%20w288-8Gs/HPIM2253.jpg

50639

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu255/Altec_Best/612C%20w416-8Bs%20%20%201005As%20w288-8Gs/HPIM2370.jpg


50640

[juniper48]

ALTECS BEST!Thanks for the info and the pictures, If these sound 9/10ths as interesting as I remember, I will have proper cabs made for them. I am sure they will!!!! When I install the drivers I will post some pictures.

[Altec Best]

ALTECS BEST!Thanks for the info and the pictures, If these sound 9/10ths as interesting as I remember, I will have proper cabs made for them. I am sure they will!!!! When I install the drivers I will post some pictures.

Your Quite Welcome ! I hope all goes smooth and well for your project ! Best Wishes ! ;)

Regards ~ AB :)

[juniper48]

Finally had a chance to listen! These speakers are truly amazing. They are tight accurate and very clear. The upper bass is the best I have heard! With many types of music they out perform my model 19's by a lot. My wife who is a classical trained violinist who could have went to oberlin actually pulled out a hollowbody and was playing along. Most of the time I listen she asks me to turn it off!

[Altec Best]

Finally had a chance to listen! These speakers are truly amazing. They are tight accurate and very clear. The upper bass is the best I have heard! With many types of music they out perform my model 19's by a lot. My wife who is a classical trained violinist who could have went to oberlin actually pulled out a hollowbody and was playing along. Most of the time I listen she asks me to turn it off!

It's the Clarity that grabs me first ! I can almost guarantee that your 19's need to have the crossovers recapped especially if they are still original !Once that is done there won't be much better. You have to do a ground bypass on them too.(Direct Wired Grounds) Trust Me !

:applaud: That's What I'm talking about !! :D ;) Keep'em Rockin ! These speakers are 35 years old there is nothing in the world that will touch them for the money (Price Range).Unless you want another mortgage ! ;)

[juniper48]

It's the Clarity that grabs me first ! I can almost guarantee that your 19's need to have the crossovers recapped especially if they are still original !Once that is done there won't be much better. You have to do a ground bypass on them too.(Direct Wired Grounds) Trust Me !

:applaud: That's What I'm talking about !! :D ;) Keep'em Rockin ! These speakers are 35 years old there is nothing in the world that will touch them for the money (Price Range).Unless you want another mortgage ! ;)
Altec Best, My M 19's are amazing also, with some types of music. They are better with jazz and blues and classical. They just dont have that intense hit and separation or imaging with rock and roll,club or dance music. They also seem very, very particular about recordings which I think is a good thing! As far as the x-overs they are copies of the original per the previous owner patched in to the 19's l-pads with much more expensive parts. Would this ground pass still need to be done with this type of configuration? The new x's sit on the "shelf" in the horn section . Thanks

[Altec Best]

[QUOTE]Altec Best, My M 19's are amazing also, with some types of music. They are better with jazz and blues and classical.
Well I'm a Rock-n-Roller ! :p So they must be missing something ! I helped a few 19 members at Todd's Altec site with this Modification and they all had the same improvements as I did. IMHO it was a night & day difference. As others have agreed with.I feel it was that dramatic.Difference was so obvious.Everything improved,especially the bass,and the highs.


They also seem very, very particular about recordings which I think is a good thing!

It is a good thing.Because they can show you the deficiencies in inferior recordings.They are very clean and if the recordings aren't that good you will hear it.That is a testament to their accuracy and clarity ! Not many speakers can do that.Higher end JBL's & Altec's are prime examples of what can be done with sound reproduction when the effort and commitment are there from the Manufacturer's



As far as the x-overs they are copies of the original per the previous owner patched in to the 19's l-pads with much more expensive parts. Would this ground pass still need to be done with this type of configuration? The new x's sit on the "shelf" in the horn section . Thanks


If it wasn't done,then answer is Yes.The problem is the rivets that mount the terminal bars to the aluminum plate.They become loose and oxidized and therefore don't make good grounds ! In the first picture I forgot to label the ground wire that goes from the top right to bottom right post that runs along the bottom of the yellow wire.If you look there you can see it easily.I used Solen Fast Caps,replaced all resistors,two were out of spec.I also increased the size of the wires in the XO to 14 AWG Stranded.Larger size is not needed and is just more difficult to work with.Clean all pots with De-Oxit 5.And IMHO one of the most important things to do is to leave the original coils in there.They are part of the voicing that gives that Altec sound.Although you can find Air-Core coils in the same values the R value is often different !!! And has been noted by several members on the Altec site that changed the way they sounded when they replaced with AC inductors.So back in went the originals and so did the Altec sound. They very rarely go bad anyway so it is a waste of money to replace them (Inductors/Coils) IMO.One other note, some of the values you can't get like a 21uF cap no one makes.If you come across that just double up use a (10+11) uF or a (12+9) uF caps to reach the correct values.

FWIW- I would remove the XO's in the 19's start with the original.Replace the resistors,Caps w/Solens 400v,increase wire size,do the ground bypass (Hard wired Grounds) clean the pots. Voilà ! Done ! Then come back and talk to us !:D :bouncy:

Pictures - In the first I tried to show locations I used (Windows Paint Program ) to do it quickly.Try to increase the size of the text,I made it too small, My Apologies ! I also installed new foams from the Darst's IMO they help dampen the 811 horn and do make a difference ! All parts I got from Parts Express with exception of some of the resistors and a couple of caps that weren't available which you can get from Madisound. If you do in the future you will be quite Happy ! Good Luck if you choose to do so ! Best Wishes ~ AB


http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu255/Altec_Best/Model%2019%20Modifications/e62806f3.jpg

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu255/Altec_Best/Model%2019%20Modifications/HPIM2266.jpg

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu255/Altec_Best/Model%2019%20Modifications/HPIM2271.jpg

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu255/Altec_Best/Model%2019%20Modifications/HPIM2301.jpg

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu255/Altec_Best/Model%2019%20Modifications/HPIM1836.jpg

[juniper48]

Altecs Best! Thanks again for another great response! I will open my 19's up and see if the ground lugs have been taken care of? So with yours the bass is as tight as your 604's? These do have the Darst's inserts for the horns.

[Altec Best]

Your Welcome ! I have been looking for the thread on the Altec site about the XO procedure on the model 19 XO's will post it when I find the right one that I'm looking for,there are so many of them.Just don't have the time right now,my wife wants to take me out to dinner so I have to get ready.You know how birthdays are, just another day that seems to come around faster and faster each year ! :blink: :(.

[juniper48]

Your Welcome ! I have been looking for the thread on the Altec site about the XO procedure on the model 19 XO's will post it when I find the right one that I'm looking for,there are so many of them.Just don't have the time right now,my wife wants to take me out to dinner so I have to get ready.You know how birthdays are, just another day that seems to come around faster and faster each year ! :blink: :(.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!! ENJOY YOUR DAY!!! :bouncy: BUT ANY PERSON WHO HAS A MOTTO LIKE YOURS AND HELPS OTHERS SHOULD NEVER BE SAD ABOUT ANOTHER B-DAY!!! COULD YOU IMAGINE WHAT THE WORLD WOULD BE LIKE WITH A HUNDRED MILLION OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU!!!!!! THANKS AGAIN FOR ALL YOUR HELP!!!

[Altec Best]

Thank You for the Kind Words ! :applaud: :bouncy: :D ;)

[Altec Best]

Here's one and there is a few more.I Just did a search for Model 19 XO's on Todd's Altec userboard here are some of them. ;)

Good Luck with your project, All The Best ! AB


http://www.hostboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194038&highlight=Altec+member-here

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu255/Altec_Best/72504e66.jpg

[juniper48]

Altecs Best That is some great info!!! I opened up my 19's and found that the new x-overs only use the l-pads! I think I will send the new ones away to have them checked and matched. I hate to disturb the old ones that have been by passed. Unfortunetly the 604's blew up already so I have to figure out what happened? Power surge, amp failure, X-over problem or played to loud. I just don't know???? But boy did they sound good while it lasted! Thanks again, hopefully I can find a tech to look at my x-overs!

[Altec Best]

Altecs Best That is some great info!!! I opened up my 19's and found that the new x-overs only use the l-pads! I think I will send the new ones away to have them checked and matched. I hate to disturb the old ones that have been by passed. Unfortunately the 604's blew up already so I have to figure out what happened? Power surge, amp failure, X-over problem or played to loud. I just don't know???? But boy did they sound good while it lasted! Thanks again, hopefully I can find a tech to look at my x-overs!

I hope you didn't blow up the diaphragms ! If they are original they came with the 23744 lite Fram(irreplaceable).They are loved by many enthusiasts.Mine have them.The 604's are not meant to be cranked.Moderate volume should be all that they see.They are not High power output drivers.At medium to low volumes they sound great.

I wouldn't use your speakers anymore until your XO's are thoroughly checked.If bypassed as you say then all their protection is as well ! You don't want the high frequencies receiving low frequencies and vice versa.That's really what your XO's function is to filter the audio signal.So each driver receives the correct range of frequencies.Talk to Earl K he is an expert WRT Xo's.More commonly known around here as the "Stealth Librarian" :D

[juniper48]

I hope you didn't blow up the diaphragms ! If they are original they came with the 23744 lite Fram(irreplaceable).They are loved by many enthusiasts.Mine have them.The 604's are not meant to be cranked.Moderate volume should be all that they see.They are not High power output drivers.At medium to low volumes they sound great.

I wouldn't use your speakers anymore until your XO's are thoroughly checked.If bypassed as you say then all their protection is as well ! You don't want the high frequencies receiving low frequencies and vice versa.That's really what your XO's function is to filter the audio signal.So each driver receives the correct range of frequencies.Talk to Earl K he is an expert WRT Xo's.More commonly known around here as the "Stealth Librarian" :D
Altecs Best thankfully, the are not the originals but new GPA parts. I have been looking for another pair of 604's with original parts. As far as bypassing the 19's x-overs. In this configuration, the new x-overs are exact replicas of the originals but with higher quality parts. These x-overs connect to the 3 tabs located on the 19's front control knobs. Thanks