recomendation for best value in preamp

[brett_s]

Group, this is an offshoot of a thread I posted to help improve my current system. One common thought that continues to come up is that I should use a dedicated preamp instead of my AV receiver.

What is the best values in used (or new) preamps if I have approximately $500 to spend?
Am I better off going with something used that was made within the last 20 years, or some of the new "entry" level preamps such as Parasounds P3 or 2100 classic, emotiva, rotel 1550, or others I don't know about.

Please share where you would start looking if you were me. Specific models would be greatly apreciated.

Brett

[SEAWOLF97]

we hashed that out pretty good here ==>>http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?17659-Preamp-recommendations

you should decide whether you want PHONO stage or not ??

I was looking at a Parasound P3 (the dealer was going to sell at 50 over cost) , but ended up with an Adcom at a quarter of what I'd planned to pay ... and havnt looked back..sounds great :applaud:

[brett_s]

A phono input is not mandatory for me. I don't have a turntable, and I don't see it happening anytime in the future. I never caught the vinyl bug.

Thanks for the link, I saw that thread and read through it.

which Adcom do you like? I keep seeing some of those as recomendations. I don't know much about Adcom. you can pick up one that people say are decent, for realitvely inexpensive.

[richluvsound]

I love my Bryston BP4 Circa 1987... I would have to spend 2k plus to better it ...

Rotel , Sim Moon P25 - the Emotiva is nothing more than a nice box with a plug on it - Maybe you might find something by Nad for around that price . Threshold 10 ....

Or you could think about DIY if you have a little bit knowledge .

[SEAWOLF97]

which Adcom do you like? I keep seeing some of those as recomendations. I don't know much about Adcom. you can pick up one that people say are decent, for realitvely inexpensive.

I wanted FM also , and remote ...found a great GTP-500 mk2 ....Adcom is good quality at popular prices...very well made, lots of features...

my repair tech , who is well know up and down the Willamette Valley, has a pre-owned showroom and has his choice of just about anything...tried an Audio Research tube pre , said his Adcom was much better ..;)

[Ruediger]

http://www.elitestereo.netfirms.com/

select 'control amps'

Another good one is Yamaha CX-1

Ruediger

[richluvsound]

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/220791-conrad_johnson_pv2a_tube_phono_preamp/http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/219434-classe_pre_amp/



Rich

[Mr. Widget]

http://www.elitestereo.netfirms.com/

select 'control amps'

Another good one is Yamaha CX-1

RuedigerI have no idea about the Pioneer Pre, but some time back I had one of those absolutely beautiful autoformer coupled Elite amps... weighed a ton, looked spectacular, sounded like a big old Sansui, Kenwood, Pioneer, etc. receiver. Veiled and harshly transistory... I thought maybe it was a defective unit... tried a second one. Same results. Before I ever heard one I had feared it might have a mushy bottom end due to the autoformers, but I was surprised by the metallic sound I heard.

I am not such a fan of the Adcom preamps either... I have heard a 5XX model and owned a 750... the Pass designed model, I liked it best in it's active mode, in passive it was completely lifeless, but over all I didn't find it a very compelling preamp. I wouldn't say do not use it, but unless the price was right, I would keep looking. I would look for an old Levinson, Threshold, Klyne, Audible Illusions, ??? These old TOTL units were and are fantastic sounding and can be quite reasonable. They may need a bit of maintenance or repair work, because they are decades old, but with a bit of luck, a truly stellar sound can be had for not much green.

Ultimately though it is quite subjective. I have had numerous pieces in my system that were very highly reviewed or popular on the internet... some I loved and others I just scratched my head. There is no substitute for trying it out yourself with your ears, your speakers, your room.


Widget

[opimax]

I just bought a adcom 760 last night, needed a remote controlled unit, 200 shipped w/paypal, should be shipped today , I will post impressions(got it for 2 channe)l.

I was pretty happy wth a adcom 400 but it has no remote.

What ball park are you talking about when you say good prce for those older totl units?

I use 250TIs that are now "trashed" in another thread, told my house "is where bass goes to die" last week and purchased an adcom which is "trashed" here...I am goin got have to quit listening to music so i don't hurt myself LOL???? :bouncy::D:bouncy:

[richluvsound]

Hi Brett,

$500 will get you noticable up-grade on the Cambridge ( I know it well ) A pre-amp that retailed for $500 ish 15-20 years ago would be a waste in my opinion .

Rule of thumb ..... least amount of whistles and bells will get you a better sound .

Rich

[Mr. Widget]

What ball park are you talking about when you say good prce for those older totl units?All over the map... I have seen some amazing deals where you might find one for $500 or even less, but typically they are higher than that... you have to keep your eyes and ears open and strike when something interesting comes along. If you study the market you can almost always try out a piece and then sell it if you don't love it for the cost of shipping or with luck you might make a few bucks.


Widget

[SEAWOLF97]

I use 250TIs that are now "trashed" in another thread, told my house "is where bass goes to die" last week and purchased an adcom which is "trashed" here...I am goin got have to quit listening to music so i don't hurt myself LOL???? :bouncy::D:bouncy:

yeah Mark , audiophiles in general and this forum also have a circle of trashmen ...they trash whatever isnt the latest or exclusively expensive, those trashed products are now "dead" to their minds ..they seem to be able to evaluate a whole brand by their experience with one model..

Now if I judged all JBL's by my old Radiances (did NOT buy new) or the Best Buy JBL's ...well , I think it would provide a skewed , non representative , false opinion/recommendation

ie: one generation of a product doesnt always paint the whole brand....in fact..in the 50's/early 60's , Japanese products were the lepers ...if you saw a "made in Japan" sticker, you rejected the product, people snickered at it , just as we do with China made items today.....and China will make big strides in quality in the years to come and your grandchildren wont even be aware of the current MiC stigma.

It prolly better to use your own experience or that of others of similar thought that you trust.

[Mr. Widget]

yeah Mark , audiophiles in general and this forum also have a circle of trashmen ...they trash whatever isnt the latest or exclusively expensive, those trashed products are now "dead" to their minds ..they seem to be able to evaluate a whole brand by their experience with one model...I fear this comment is referring to my post above, but I hope not. I certainly wasn't "trashing" anything.

If you carefully read posts on this forum, you will discover that people's needs and perceptions vary widely as well as their ability to discern sometimes subtle but serious differences in gear as well as the ability of a system (including the room) to mask or unmask differences in equipment.

As for condemning a whole brand, I have heard dogs and real winners from numerous brands. Even our beloved JBL has it's share of real dogs out there (and you don't have to search out Radiance Series speakers to find them). But even within that comment, each piece must be evaluated within it's intended system. The other day we were comparing a handful of amps on the Everests in our showroom. The least expensive amps sounded the best. I wouldn't say that these amps will sound the best on every speaker, and perhaps not even in every room. I suppose it is even possible that some people might prefer the sound of the amps that we found less enjoyable.

I guess what I am saying is that just because a lot of people love McIntosh or Hafler or Adcom or the high end brands I mentioned above, it doesn't guarantee that you will. It can be due to the piece you have, the model you have, the rest of your system, your expectations... I had a fully restored McIntosh C22 tube pre with new tube and all new caps... the price of many of the caps ludicrously expensive, in my system a few weeks ago. There are countless people blogging about how wonderful this sort of gear can be. Not for me in my system. I brought home a Marantz 7C yesterday. I will put it in the system later today. I am hopeful, but even though this is one of the holy grail preamps for many, I will listen as I always do; carefully, and as objectively as possible until it's character makes itself known to me.


Widget

[Ruediger]

... one of those absolutely beautiful autoformer coupled Elite amps...

Widget

I don't understand what You mean. Do You mean autotransformer? If yes: where in the circuitry?

Ruediger

[Audiobeer]

I bought the trashed Adcom 750 preamp from "The Widgemeister" and it was the best preamp I ever owned. I too sold it to move on to try something else. Hell it's a hobby!



I fear this comment is referring to my post above, but I hope not. I certainly wasn't "trashing" anything.

If you carefully read posts on this forum, you will discover that people's needs and perceptions vary widely as well as their ability to discern sometimes subtle but serious differences in gear as well as the ability of a system (including the room) to mask or unmask differences in equipment.

As for condemning a whole brand, I have heard dogs and real winners from numerous brands. Even our beloved JBL has it's share of real dogs out there (and you don't have to search out Radiance Series speakers to find them). But even within that comment, each piece must be evaluated within it's intended system. The other day we were comparing a handful of amps on the Everests in our showroom. The least expensive amps sounded the best. I wouldn't say that these amps will sound the best on every speaker, and perhaps not even in every room. I suppose it is even possible that some people might prefer the sound of the amps that we found less enjoyable.

I guess what I am saying is that just because a lot of people love McIntosh or Hafler or Adcom or the high end brands I mentioned above, it doesn't guarantee that you will. It can be due to the piece you have, the model you have, the rest of your system, your expectations... I had a fully restored McIntosh C22 tube pre with new tube and all new caps... the price of many of the caps ludicrously expensive, in my system a few weeks ago. There are countless people blogging about how wonderful this sort of gear can be. Not for me in my system. I brought home a Marantz 7C yesterday. I will put it in the system later today. I am hopeful, but even though this is one of the holy grail preamps for many, I will listen as I always do; carefully, and as objectively as possible until it's character makes itself known to me.


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

I don't understand what You mean. Do You mean autotransformer? If yes: where in the circuitry?

RuedigerI was referring to the M91 amp which I had remembered as having a McIntosh style transformer coupled output. Just doing a quick search right now, I see it did not have output transformers... not sure why I thought it did, perhaps someone had erroneously told me they did. I never opened one up, but I did have two and they were both beautiful and quite heavy... and decidedly not my cup of audio tea.

Do you own one of these amps and love it?


Widget

[JeffW]

I use 250TIs that are now "trashed" in another thread,

I didn't trash your 250tis, I said mine weren't up to par with some more current speakers. I've never heard yours, so I have no idea how they sound. I also admitted that my 250tis hadn't been touched save a woofer refoam in 30 odd years. So if anything I'm admitting to the neglect of this particular pair. Plus they are far too close to the wall, I know this. But the bass isn't where my dissatisfaction lies.

And truth be told, I was more than satisfied with them. I knew something was not quite right with my system, but just couldn't bring myself to even consider it might be the speakers.

There are far too many happy 250ti owners out there to paint the entire series with the same brush as I did mine, but in my system, in my house, they are not currently the most revealing speakers I own.

Another point that doesn't really mean anything is that I found it curious that Mr. Widget was, at one time not long ago, running the same APT Holman pre-amp I was running. The same model that Seawolf97 then sold me one as a spare when he bought the Adcom. I have no idea if Mr Widget is still using his, but that was the scoop at the time.

I still have both APT Holmans, and one of them is about to go into service again as my "vintage" rig preamp atop a PS-400 Crown and a pair of the 4312DBKs that were also listed in the recent Harman sale.

[Mr. Widget]

Hell it's a hobby!:D

Oh, and I am sorry I sold you some "trash"... ;) So what did you move on to?
So far the "best" preamp I have heard in my system was the $10K ML No. 326S. I wish I could have afforded to keep it. :(

FWIW: The Marantz 7C is happily playing as I type this and is sounding shockingly good... hmmm.


Widget

[grumpy]

Yes, if anyone has one of those nasty old Klyne Audio Arts
preamps that you're having a hard time getting rid of,
please let me know ;) ... I'd hang the internals on my
wall as art even if it was dead (nice dragonfly etching
as well as the circuit layout)

[Mr. Widget]

Yes, if anyone has one of those nasty old Klyne Audio Arts preamps that you're having a hard time getting rid of, please let me know ;) ... I'd hang the internals on my wall as art even if it was dead (nice dragonfly etching as well as the circuit layout)I doubt many will understand your post, but I for one appreciate it... we have a customer with one of those nasty old Klynes... I wish he'd replace it and let me dispose of it for him, but for some reason he just won't let it go. :banghead:


Widget

[opimax]

Hey I wasn't upset by anyone or any commments, most of what I said was to be humorous. I don't think cuz someone wrote he couldn't listen his 250s anymore mine are trash, lol

I would be happy to trade my 250s for any of the new speakers we were talking about and I have not heard of them!!I hope most times new is better

I hope I didn't offend anybody myself, this is the internet, thick skinned and optimistic in how words read.

My only serious question was what the price point was of a TOTL pre which Widget referred to and he answered...more than I have currently to spend :(

I am happy with the 760 I got for the price, if it sounds better or as good then the gtp 400 I have with out remote control then I am happy witht the purchase...and Widget can't listen to it when he comes to visit (joke,lol).

Mark

[Mr. Widget]

...more than I have currently to spend :(Isn't that always the case?:banghead:

I would say the best bang for the buck I have heard would be a ~$200 PS Audio 4 or higher or Apt Holman pre but no remotes here. These are readily available for cheap... my reference to those higher end units was because I have seen some occasionally at the earlier mentioned $500 price point.


FWIW: This Marantz 7C is really sounding nice. I realize it isn't in the price range we are talking about... the Marantz 7T is, though I am not a fan of it. I suppose there is occasionally a price/performance correlation. :)


Widget

[richluvsound]

Isn't that always the case?:banghead:




FWIW: This Marantz 7C is really sounding nice. I realize it isn't in the price range we are talking about... the Marantz 7T is, though I am not a fan of it. I suppose there is occasionally a price/performance correlation. :)


Widget

Cheers Widget ,

I have heard many good things about this Pre - there is a nice diy kit I was thinking about , but have been waiting for opinions that I respect.

It would be a shame if the higher end gear didn't get mentioned just because its beyond the purse of some folks here. Each to his own .....

There is information here for every budget and application

Rich

[opimax]

beating a dead horse, Dream cheap pre-amp,

200 or less,
2 channel only
can add a sub to with pre output
loudness, balance,bass and treble but COMPLETELY by bipassable
Remote control
UNBELIEVEABLY GREAT SONICS

Adcom gtp 602 pretty close btw, at least feature wise :D


Mark

[richluvsound]

The gentlemen was asking us recommend pre-apms in the $500 range ! "Not how cheap can I get one"

Brett wants to upgrade his system and ask our advice .... So far , we have given him nothing but fucking egos.

[Titanium Dome]

I use 250TIs that are now "trashed" in another thread, told my house "is where bass goes to die" last week and purchased an adcom which is "trashed" here...I am goin got have to quit listening to music so i don't hurt myself LOL???? :bouncy::D:bouncy:


yeah Mark , audiophiles in general and this forum also have a circle of trashmen ...they trash whatever isnt the latest or exclusively expensive, those trashed products are now "dead" to their minds ..they seem to be able to evaluate a whole brand by their experience with one model..

.


I fear this comment is referring to my post above, but I hope not. I certainly wasn't "trashing" anything.


Widget


:D

Oh, and I am sorry I sold you some "trash"... ;)


Widget

It's my impression everyone kind of gets the tongue-in-cheek humor of these kind of comments. Mark was joking, and Widget's joking, but Seawolf's not joking. If it's any comfort to those wondering, I think his main issue is with Jeff and more directly with me. We both said our newer JBLs were better that the 250Ti and/or L250.

We talked about our own speakers but of course by inference if you own or like one of the models mentioned then you can feel as though it's a direct assault on what you have.

I happened to have a meet at my place where JBLAddict brought the Beck: Sea Change SACD, which is a superb disc. It's a bit melancholy, and one of the songs has the refrain "Already dead to me now" when he's singing about the long time girlfriend he broke up with. I played on that refrain and teased Tony with the "sample" as an example of how things can change.

Obviously it offended Seawolf and it's stuck pretty hard or it wouldn't keep coming up. Now it's spilled out of one thread and been brought into this one, even giving some of us a disparaging name in the process and souring the thread in the process.

I'm unsure why anyone cares what I think about a particular speaker. Plenty of folks have ridiculed some of mine over the years, and we're still getting along. So to all parties who were offended by my comments, I apologize. I regret that I have offended you. :(

Now to the topic at hand: buy an old Citation 7.0 or 5.0 surround processor. It has one of the finest analog stereo stages you'll find. Plus you'll get bass management.

Cheers everyone!

:cheers:

[brett_s]

Thanks for the info guys, keep it coming. Every time someone mentions something, I google what it is right away. I'm learning a ton! When i start looking, perhaps I will be at least a bit educated.

As for the other discussions, I can see this is a passionate group, which I can fully relate to!:D

thanks guys!
Brett

[Ruediger]

... Do you own one of these amps and love it?
Widget

The preamps were on my wishlist for a long time, but I did not have the money. When I had the money, they were not built any longer.

I am happy with my Yamaha CX-1.

Ruediger

[Regis]

You might just have to budget up to $750. Sounds like a lot, but that $750 mark, will get you a really nice pre, that cost quite a bit back in the day. It's about what I paid for my BV Audio P10, which retailed for about $1,600 back on 2004. But they are rare and hard to find.

I like the Aragon 28 MkII for sale on Audiogon, $600 obo, (you can offer less, of course),
but the reviews on this unit are very good and it is very simple. Best of all, it has a remote too!
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatran&1305133158&/Aragon-28k-mkii

[jblnut]

I will throw in a plug for a couple of decent low cost preamps to get you started on the road...

Yamaha - C-80/85, very quiet, neutral and - like most Yamaha gear - built very well

Luxman - they had some really great preamps over the years, and some not so great. I had a C300 for years and really liked it. I also had a newer C-383 which had better bass than the C300 but the phono section was not as good.

I decided to stay out of the 250Ti rock throwing session. I'm happy for the members who were able to take advantage of the JBL fire sale on ultra-high end speakers. Hopefully they will pass on their unloved 250's to a new round of owners and the cycle will begin again.

This hobby is certainly a revolving door. We're contstantly changing our systems as we change ourselves, both in hearing capabiity and musical taste. It's important to remember why you liked something to begin with and also to try and remember to listen to the music and not the gear. I can find something to like about any system (even Bose, well mostly), and I find a lot more enjoyment from trying to hear things done well instead of flaws.

You can't take something back once it's been said. Praise your gear today only to trash it tomorrow and credibility takes an unrecoverable dive. My apologies for the soapbox....I'll get off after one more question. It's sort of a baromoeter in this hobby that really tells the story:

Where have you spent more money - in your gear, or on your recordings? Extra credit if you still get out and support live music in your area...



jblnut

[JeffW]

I decided to stay out of the 250Ti rock throwing session....

This hobby is certainly a revolving door. We're contstantly changing our systems as we change ourselves, both in hearing capabiity and musical taste. It's important to remember why you liked something to begin with and also to try and remember to listen to the music and not the gear.

That's sort of the point I mae re 250tis: I can hear more music, more information, on the speakers I currently use than I could the 250ti. By changing gear, I can hear more music.

I fail to see how anybody can spin that into a bad thing. And another thing. I paid $1800 for these 250tis about 15 years ago. The little 800 Arrays are barely more than that today.



I can find something to like about any system (even Bose, well mostly), and I find a lot more enjoyment from trying to hear things done well instead of flaws.

And I can also find flaws with the 800 Arrays. I think they are a little harsh at anything above moderate volume levels. I much prefer them with the cobbled on 435AL/Smith horn mod and the ports plugged. At normal listening levels, they are fine stock.


You can't take something back once it's been said. Praise your gear today only to trash it tomorrow and credibility takes an unrecoverable dive.

If the audio world was static, I'd agree. One of the famous old saws posted in nearly every 250ti sale/eBay auction is how the president of Harman and the designer could pick any speakers they chose and they chose 250tis. Now Greg Timbers may well still listen to 250tis, but I bet he's moved on. At the very least, I bet he's upgraded his crossovers- one of the very things I mentioned that I hadn't done to mine.

I don't feel I'm laying my credibility on the line (like I give a whit) by saying that I no longer feel that my 250tis, in their present state, are the most revealing speakers I own. I suppose I could twist that sentiment into a backhanded compliment about how they have great bass so long as upper-mid/treble accuracy isn't your most desired point of interest in a speaker. And they do indeed stomp the 800 Array in the base department.

Thing is, my preamp ain't got a treble control. I'm stuck with what the source has to offer.

[louped garouv]

i went with commercial preamps by Bozak, Urei, Audioarts, and Matamp --
they look close to this, except the Matamp...

http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio//505/medium/Bozak_CMA_10-2DL_Mixer.jpg


but they don't hit your price point unless you can do some restoration work --
which isn't too bad sometimes (it's all mostly re-capping w/ through-hole circuit boards), but can be a real bear also (if you have to re-wire the pots and switches)... just depends on the unit you acquire -- if you can do that sort of rebuild work, you've made money should you decide to part ways with them...



(I switch them out on a regular basis - thinking of building up some patch bays
to make it an easier thing to do....)





Where have you spent more money - in your gear, or on your recordings? Extra credit if you still get out and support live music in your area...



jblnut

/end thread

[SEAWOLF97]

i went with commercial preamps by Bozak, Urei, Audioarts, and Matamp --

but they don't hit your price point unless you can do some restoration work --
which isn't too bad sometimes


I'm with you ....went with BGW commercial preamp to match my 2 BGW amps ....switched the Adcom in while waiting to have the BGW 203 checked out (it is 26 years old ) ...really thought that remote would be a nice upgrade , but rarely use it.

The BGW is built like MILSPEC and was highly recommended by a forum elder , was a bargain (below your price point) on the bay as many "audiophiles" avoid commercial gear :dont-know:

[Mr. Widget]

The BGW is built like MILSPEC and was highly recommended by a forum elder , was a bargain (below your price point) on the bay as many "audiophiles" avoid commercial gear :dont-know:I don't know about the sonics of the BGW preamp(s), but you are absolutely right, often times pro gear is over looked by the typical buyers out there. You don't want "touring" equipment as it is usually pretty well used up, but there are some real finds out there if you know what to look for.

Talking "mil-spec"... pop the top off of vintage Threshold or Spectral gear and see full on NASA spec. Over built on steroids.

Widget

[loach71]

I'm with you ....went with BGW commercial preamp to match my 2 BGW amps ....switched the Adcom in while waiting to have the BGW 203 checked out (it is 26 years old ) ...really thought that remote would be a nice upgrade , but rarely use it.

The BGW is built like MILSPEC and was highly recommended by a forum elder , was a bargain (below your price point) on the bay as many "audiophiles" avoid commercial gear :dont-know:

ELDER?

I am a Timex -- I take a lickin' and keep on tickin'.......:crying:

[John]

You can't take something back once it's been said. Praise your gear today only to trash it tomorrow and credibility takes an unrecoverable dive.
jblnut

I noticed that a few times. One day they say it pains them to part with the item and once the check has been cashed and the item shipped, they can't wait to state what a peice of crap the stuff was compared to the new stuff they have in there collection:o:

I mean it is one thing to say you have changed your gear and it turned out good but why totally trash your previous pride and joy:confused:

It's almost like trashing the ex.:bash:

There must of been a few good things that attracted you in the beginning.;)

[Mr. Widget]

It's almost like trashing the ex.:bash: Now, don't get me started... :D



There must of been a few good things that attracted you in the beginning.;)I think that is understood with "exes" and audio gear. Obviously unless you are having a financial difficulty, you wouldn't be parting with a piece of gear if you hadn't found something you liked better... and the same was true when you sold off the previous piece's predecessor.

Just as there is no perfect speaker, there is no perfect preamp or ???


Widget

[jblnut]

I don't know about the sonics of the BGW preamp(s), but you are absolutely right, often times pro gear is over looked by the typical buyers out there. You don't want "touring" equipment as it is usually pretty well used up, but there are some real finds out there if you know what to look for.

Talking "mil-spec"... pop the top off of vintage Threshold or Spectral gear and see full on NASA spec. Over built on steroids.

Widget

True that..

My buddy's T2 is the most overbuilt preamplifier I've seen personally - and he had another two piece preamplifier before that one (AR SP 11 iirc).

But that is in another price realm...

Jblnut

[SEAWOLF97]

ELDER?

I am a Timex -- I take a lickin' and keep on tickin'.......:crying:

well now ....I'm older than dirt and anyone older than me is ?? ..... thot ELDER was a nice way of putting it..

yes, it was Tim who is our resident BGW whiz who helped me find both the second amp & preamp and I've never regretted it...he knows his stuff and I'm very thankful to have had his guidance
('cides us rotorheads gotta stick together :D)

the pieces we/he found were creampuffs that had lived an easy life...Uncle Paul was over a couple of months ago and posted abt how well the 750D amp controlled the 250Ti's.


One day they say it pains them to part with the item and once the check has been cashed and the item shipped, they can't wait to state what a peice of crap the stuff was compared to the new stuff they have in there collection:o:

and no, I don't publicly trash my old gear when I upgrade ...seems gauche*.



*gauche:

adjective: lacking social grace (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/grace), sensitivity, or acuteness; awkward; crude; tactless
Synonyms: inept, clumsy, maladroit; coarse, gross, uncouth.

[JeffW]

Go back to the K2 9800/5800 thread. The one thing I blamed MYSELF for was for not listening to the guys who kept harping on about how good the new stuff was.

I spent *gasp* more on my other system components than I did *gasp* recordings chasing a problem that wasn't in any of my components until BAM! I got to the speakers.

I refuse to sugar coat that.

If that offends some 250ti owners, I'm sorry. I've also mentioned that I simply could not bring myself to even CONSIDER that my speakers might possibly be the part of my system (note I said MY system) that was not performing to my (note I said MY) expectations.

Some of the members here ( Widget and 1audiohack come to mind) have spoken to me on the phone and can attest that I am the absolute poster child under the word "gauche".

I'm not going to bite my tongue, remain "un-gauche" and pretend my 250tis are anywhere near the same league as some of the current JBL offerings. That was one of the main points I kicked myself over, and I think I mentioned it: I honestly DID NOT think there was anything in the new JBL line-up that could touch my 250tis. And how devastated I was when I found out that I didn't have to look very far up the JBL food chain to prove myself wrong.

And that's my "un-gauche" point. I wouldn't listen.

I upgraded every single stinking piece of equipment in my system (except speakers) with not inexpensive gear. Still wasn't getting there. I had JBL 250tis!

Then I bought the absolute bottom of the barrel Arrays. Not a K2, not a 1400 Array. The bottom, the Ford Pinto of the Array series, the 800.

And my system has never sounded better.

My system. Not your system. My system. I hear nuances in music that I hadn't heard, hadn't heard on MY 250tis.

So I am enjoying MY system as never before, but I'm GAUCHE to mention this on the forum, just because others have done the exact same thing I did- buy JBL 250tis on the recommendation that they were THE model to own? Hello! I own them. I bought them. I spent money on them. I'm not pulling something out of thin air.

And I'd invite anyone who cared to listen an A-B session, with MY system, right now. Trouble is, I live in the boondocks, but the offer stands.

And you ain't SEEN gauche ;)

[SEAWOLF97]

as long as we're OT

i see a parallel between the 250Ti and the Porsche 911 .....both are rather unique and not universally loved .....both capable of good performance if driven correctly (pun intended) ...both are past their prime , but icons "in their day"

My 911 had its idiosyncrasies as do the JBL's .....I replaced the Porsche with a BMW V-8 that does everything better ...but the older car was sure fun. It was a challenge to master, but you felt a sense of accomplishment when used to its max.

The BMW , on the other hand...you don't need to learn anything, just turn the key and GO FAST .... somewhat like the newer JBL's

Would I like to have the latest audio gear ? SURE
Would it change my life ? Prolly not
Does my gear define who I am ?? Definitely NO
Does my current gear perform better than 90%+ of what out there in homes ?? YES
and finally ....
Am I happy with what I now have ?? For Sure

[Titanium Dome]

Hey, Jeff, no point in playing that "explain" game. You made the right choice for you and you're entitled to couch it in any terms you want regarding equipment that you own. You didn't pick on anybody's stuff; you made a simple comparison to your own speakers, in your own house, using your own gear.

Sheesh! If we can't do that, then why are we here?

I once took a raft of s#!t from some of the guys here because I featured a Northridge E50 pair I bought in a thread: Anatomy of a Northridge. Despite the clamor it created, I just kept posting my honest observations, and eventually those who didn't like it gave up and acknowledged I was just going to keep going anyway, and others appreciated the curiosity of the exercise. I still like everyone who was unhappy with that thread, and I think we all get along just fine. I've had beers with a couple of 'em. :cheers:

You can always do what you'd do in your own system if something is bothering you. Remove it or filter it out rather than endure it. On Lansing Heritage it's the "Ignore" list. It can make for interesting reading. ;)

--------------

Now can we drop this and get back to the OP's inquiry?

[tom1040]

The preamps were on my wishlist for a long time, but I did not have the money. When I had the money, they were not built any longer.

I am happy with my Yamaha CX-1.

Ruediger

I have a Yamaha CX-1000 which I have used with good results. Most likely can get this for $500 or less. Has a remote & tons of functions.

[Titanium Dome]

Lots of folks like Yamaha gear. Can someone be more specific on why it appeals to you?

[BMWCCA]

as long as we're OT

i see a parallel between the 250Ti and the Porsche 911 .....both are rather unique and not universally loved .....both capable of good performance if driven correctly (pun intended) ...both are past their prime , but icons "in their day"

I like the analogy you present but took a different tack with it:

Porsche started life with an air-cooled rear-engine, rear-drive architecture that gained them criticism for the glaring problems with this layout. They continued for over fifty years to develop, refine, and improve their performance many would say by pushing an obsolete design beyond what conventional wisdom would think possible. Their success was because of a loyal owner base that appreciated what the quirky features offered in a total package, allowing it to continue toward refinement. Using great engineers the layout continued to improve and successfully competed with conventional designs both in the marketplace and in competition around the world. Today it may use water-cooling and exotic metallurgy but the same basic layout is accepted as a top competitor in motor racing and a fierce competitor in the retail market against more exotic nameplates. Often a "halo" version will be released to universal acclaim, become sold-out, and held in great esteem . . . until the next great breakthrough.

JBL has always championed horns and compression drivers in their flagship systems and pro equipment. Today, against the conventional wisdom of other brands, they continue to develop and refine this technology with new materials and state-of-the-art electronics to produce systems that compete with the best of the best that still use "conventional" driver technology. They've managed this with the support of an entire industry that accepted JBL as the best, a loyal consumer base, and the best engineering minds that never rested on their laurels. Every once in a while a great flagship system is built and marketed (Paragon) that is held in highest esteem, until the next great advancement and flagship icon (Everest) comes along.

The rest of the story is how Porsche leveraged their expertise into somewhat affordable mainstream products and SUVs to pay the bills and may retain what makes it unique even under new corporate ownership. Versus whatever is happening to JBL currently and whatever that future holds.

Nothing is more revered by Porschephiles than the quirkiest of the quirky, the 356 and the older 911s. But anyone can get in the latest and greatest P-car, turn the key, and drive fast. Electronic nannies and better balance assure that level of operation. It won't diminish the legacy products' value to present and future owners though. And those who can afford it will always be able to compare the new with the old and see where they came from to today—and appreciate both. A new Porsche 911 is so different than a 1980's 911 that if they didn't share the same name and basic silhouette one might be from Mars and the other from Venus. But Porsche is still appreciated by its corporate owners for its engineering talent and heritage. JBL appears to be not so much.

These may be the best JBLs ever but is there any hope for the future? Today's Porsche is the best there's ever been and there will be newer and better yet to come as well as concept vehicles that will turn into production cars. Many buyers purchase the current 911 models thinking this will be the last of the great 911s. Porsche has been plotting the demise of the 911 since the 928 came out. They just never dropped the curtain . . . and the cars continued to get better and better. As JBL owners, we may have hit the best-of-the-best with no future in sight. That's the point Porsche hit in the '80s. JBL may have dropped the curtain. :(

50461

[MikeBrewster77]

Lots of folks like Yamaha gear. Can someone be more specific on why it appeals to you?

Fairly cheap, fairly straightforward, fairly clean, fairly neutral & fairly reliable has been my experience with them. Hardly the best, hardly the worst.

If I was working with a $500 budget for a pre, it wouldn't be the route I'd take, but that's just my experience with different brands.

[Mr. Widget]

Lots of folks like Yamaha gear. Can someone be more specific on why it appeals to you?I would like to know more too...

I own a Yamaha T-1 tuner it seems to work... I don't really listen to the radio much. Years ago I did a shoot out with a then new Yamaha A-1 Integrated amp (a gorgeous statement piece, Google it if you are not familiar). I used a Threshold Pre or an older Marantz Pre (I don't remember which was on deck at the time) and GAS Grandson 40wpc against the 70wpc Yamaha... the Yamaha sounded like an AM radio compared to the separates. It really got stomped.

More recently I have heard numerous Yamaha AVRs with their seemingly endless surround modes... they have all impressed me, but never positively.

So basically, while some will think I am dumping on Yamaha, I don't feel I am. What I am saying is that my experience with Yamaha 2-channel is limited. The experience that I have had hasn't fostered a desire to explore these devices, but like Dome, the number of members who seem enamored with them does make me curious. (OK, I admit it, I am dumping on their AVRs... I really have never met one that I liked. :D)


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[SEAWOLF97]

I like the analogy you present but took a different tack with it:

Porsche started life ......

nice post Phil .....and I wish that your recommendation on the soundcraftsman preamp had been posted before I bought my 2 pre's ...not saying that I would have bought it , but it would have been another one with someone I know behind it...to check out.

[Ducatista47]

With cars, I have to divide it between day to day long term needs and pie in the sky. I have happily settled on VW for the family cars (all three), TDI preferred.

So what is the car I would most like to be able to drive, even if only once? The 917, my candidate for the best racing car ever. Probably ignorant, but it is my favorite anyway. I watch Le Mans more frequently than any other DVD I have.

Guilty as charged. But when it comes to audio gear, it is all about the performance. I will never understand why listeners care so much about what gear looks like - or care at all, WAF excepted.

Clark

[SEAWOLF97]

So what is the car I would most like to be able to drive, even if only once? The 917, my candidate for the best racing car ever. Probably ignorant, but it is my favorite anyway. I watch Le Mans more frequently than any other DVD I have.

Since this is an associative forum that goes OT often (yes, guilty as charged) .... my son and I long ago played with a tin 917 model ..abt 10 incher..that wouldnt go off a table top...beautiful detailed, always loved the design (along with the GT40)

Went to a PCA awards dinner and sat next to Monte Shelton , the race driver ....he told of visiting a race outfit in the late 70's and noticing a bunch of boxes and body parts under a tarp (true basket case) ...it was a 917 ..they sold it to him for 10K ...he rebuilt it and sold it for 500K ...before it became valuable. ;)

[richluvsound]

With cars, I have to divide it between day to day long term needs and pie in the sky. I have happily settled on VW for the family cars (all three), TDI preferred.

So what is the car I would most like to be able to drive, even if only once? The 917, my candidate for the best racing car ever. Probably ignorant, but it is my favorite anyway. I watch Le Mans more frequently than any other DVD I have.

Guilty as charged. But when it comes to audio gear, it is all about the performance. I will never understand why listeners care so much about what gear looks like - or care at all, WAF excepted.

Clark


Form / Function or Function/Form ? Well thought out design should be evident from the exterior, but never superior to the internals...

Case in point , Emotiva gear = form over function and MSB function over form ! Levinson and Pass have the balance right ..

Rich

[Mr. Widget]

With cars... TDI preferred.Agreed!
I love my Jetta TDI Wagon. It drives like a car you would want to drive, can carry as much as many of those silly SUV thingies, and still gets 45mpg on the highway.


I will never understand why listeners care so much about what gear looks like - or care at all...I like pretty cars, pretty women, and pretty audio gear... that of course assumes the performance isn't compromised. I mean what's the point of having a pretty woman on your arm if you don't also enjoy being with her.


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[Titanium Dome]

The car analogies are great for continuing a discussion on JBL past and present (which is a spillover from an unrelated thread), but they don't really move this discussion along, which is about preamps. :eek: Yes, it's true. :)

So let's give it another boost.

After getting the JBL (name withheld to avoid debate) and thinking they'd be a great stereo pair, I got to speak with the designer (name withheld to avoid debate), and was slightly surprised to hear him concur with the seller's (name withheld to avoid debate) opinion that a sub or subs would be a recommended addition. He (name withheld to avoid debate) gave me a couple of suggestions, and I ended up with the JBL (name withheld to avoid debate) pair to augment the (name withheld to avoid debate). The difference was subtle, but very satisfying.

Luckily, I have a (name withheld to avoid debate) pre/pro with a great analog section that has analog bass management, and it works with the (name withheld to avoid debate) and (name withheld to avoid debate) very, very well. Grumpy and a couple of AVS buddies helped to dial it in a bit, and I'm happy with it.

Subsequent to that, I listened to some JBL (name withheld to avoid debate) that I own. I'd enjoyed them for years despite a weak HF performance, but now felt there was some need for augmentation at the lower end as well. I'm not suggesting boomy or rumbling augmentation, just assistance to overcome the compromises required by the design.

Unfortunately my (name withheld to avoid debate) pre doesn't have anything other than stereo analog out: no separate bass management. I'm not interested in adding an external crossover and I don't have another pre/pro sitting around.

AND HERE WE ARE:

Are there good stereo pres on the used market or even in production today that have separate bass management and LF outputs? Would these fall into the category of "best value"?

[Mr. Widget]

...and more preamp talk. Today I was made aware of this site: http://stereolist.com/stereolist-category/preamplifiers/active/

Most of the listed preamps are a bit more expensive than we were talking about, but there is an inexpensive Adcom and a couple of others. The site has quite a bit of interesting gear on it.


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[Mr. Widget]

Are there good stereo pres on the used market or even in production today that have separate bass management and LF outputs? Would these fall into the category of "best value"?I am unaware of any sonically superior preamps with bass management. Sounds like you better get rid of those overly complicating JBL (name withheld to avoid debate) speakers. :D

FWIW: There may exist just the animal you are looking for, but I certainly never heard of it. When faced with this situation I have always used a pre with paralleled outputs, an external crossover, and separate amps. It does add clutter and complexity.


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[brett_s]

Group,

I thought I would share my latest update with everyone. For a while, I've been looking to add a dedicated 2 ch preamp to my system instead of my AV receiver (see original post), as when I questioned what the weak point in my system was, this came up the most often.

I didn't want to spend mega bucks on a preamp right now, just something decent used to notice if I could hear a difference. I came across a used Belles soloist 3 preamp in absolute mint conditon on my local craigslist. I got it for a great price, so I thought there was little risk as I could flip it on Audiogon or ebay for likely a small profit if I didn't like it. The reviews were good, and it met all of my criteria. Nothing spectacular, but I thought it fit the bill.

The wife and I just got done listening to the first few CD's. The difference was dramatic. I would never have believed it if I didn't hear it myself. The bottom end was much more powerful and way tighter. The mids and highs seemed much more pronounced and clear. There was just so much more to the music....I'm not sure how to describe it.....it sounded almost 3 dimensional. And it was incredibly clear. I know it was loud when we were listening, but it didn't seem loud.

Thanks to the group for sharing there thoughts and convincing me that a preamp would be a good expenditure.

Brett

[Ducatista47]

Glad it worked out so well, Brett. Thought I would share my current preamp situation.

Two years ago I went a different way and landed a First Watt B1 buffer preamp. Realizing that the gain circuitry in preamps is counterproductive in this age of two volt output sources, Nelson Pass designed a box with left and right volume pots, two inputs and one output and a Jfet buffer to prevent impedance mismatches. Zero gain, simple circuit and distortion way below audibility despite having no feedback. Possibly the most transparent audio unit ever devised since wire.

I replaced a really excellent tube preamp with it and - hated it. Returned it and asked the dealer to let it ride for a future purchase. Forward two years of listening and ear retraining, and I had him send it again. I suspected - correctly - that I fell into the body of listeners who love our particular distortion we are used to hearing. Think output transformers or vinyl and you get the picture. My current speaker rig is pretty revealing and I was expecting little if any audible improvement, having long since progressed to a solid state preamp solution. I was wrong. Not night and day, but it was like eliminating an amplifier alltogether, which of course is exactly what it does.

My point? If flat response and neutrality is your thing and you like the way your source and speakers sound (no need for tone controls), the best preamp may be no preamp. The B1 is pricey at $998 - used to be $898 - but is a breeze to DIY. It can be perf boarded and uses a wall wart for a power supply.

[Odd]

Yes, B1 from Nelson Pass is very good. I've been using it now for three weeks.
I built it myself with a kit from PASS (http://www.passdiy.com/store.htm)DIY (http://www.passdiy.com/store.htm). The kit is just the PCB plus 4 matched JFETS. Other components are easy to obtain. You also need a small power supply.

[Ducatista47]

Yes, B1 from Nelson Pass is very good. I've been using it now for three weeks.
I built it myself with a kit from PASS (http://www.passdiy.com/store.htm)DIY (http://www.passdiy.com/store.htm). The kit is just the PCB plus 4 matched JFETS. Other components are easy to obtain. You also need a small power supply.
Thanks for the post. I didn't know about the DIY kit. If I need another one I'll just build it. It is the ideal preamp because it has no sound signature at all and no audible distortion. If your speakers are efficient, all mine are, a preamp with gain is counterproductive.