Anything bad to say against Mackenzie recone kits?

[Lee in Montreal]

Except, of course, that they are not original JBL.

Considering that 2240 baskets can be had for under $50 and that a pre-assembled 2245h recone kit is $80.00, I think it becomes a no brainer for bass heads.

http://reconekits.com/jbl2245h8ohmreconekit.aspx

50302

[pos]

please install one and measure the T/S !

[Lee in Montreal]

please install one and measure the T/S !

Do you have any previous experience with this aftermarket recone kit in particular?

[Eaulive]

Do you have any previous experience with this aftermarket recone kit in particular?

I don't but please do some tests for the benefit of us all!

Did you buy one yet?

[pos]

Do you have any previous experience with this aftermarket recone kit in particular?
I don't either, but here is couple of things you should check:
the voice coil must be 24mm long (vs 19mm for the 2240), edgewound copper ribbon, and the cone must have aquaplass on its back (mms 185g vs 164g for the 2240).

The fact that their 2245 kit is more expensive than their 2240 one is encouraging!

[Lee in Montreal]

and the cone must have aquaplass on its back (mms 185g vs 164g for the 2240).

Interestingly, I don't think that all JBL-sourced 2245 kits even had the white aquaplas on the back. I have noticed some discripencies on many pictures. But I might be wrong. ;)

[pos]

aquaplas can be either white or black (eg 128H vs 128H-1), but is present on the back of all proper 2245s

[Eaulive]

I emailed them today with questions about 2225 kits.
Somewhere in their website they sell the same VC for 2225 and E140... not a good sign.

Before starting to beyatch I'm gonna wait for what they have to say, they maybe have the best intentions and are willing to learn to provide the best product possible, who knows.

Basically I don't doubt the craftmenship and dedication if those are US made kits made by serious people, I doubt the result/assembly and the exactitude of the specs.

It's hard to get exact specs on the voice coil length, wire thickness, amount of turns, position of the coil in the gap, position of the spider on the coil former, etc. So it's possible that they're not exactly as spec.

Like I said, let's see before saying the product is sh**. Altec lansing cones are now made by a third party (GPA) and people seems to be happy with them so the same thing could happen with JBL stuff.

[Lee in Montreal]

When a supplier such as JBL doesn't sell components for a while, and sells replacement parts at highway robbery price, I think the message is clear: bring your business elsewhere. Therefore, as Eaulive mentionned, I think it is the enthusiasts' best interest to support local aftermarket suppliers into improving their product. "Supporting" could include working with them into making better recone kits. If it allows a couple American workers to get a job, I am all for it... :D

Perhaps I can even invite the dudes from Mackenzie to this discussion. Afterall, aftermarket suppliers are not neccessarely the ennemy.

[edgewound]

When a supplier such as JBL doesn't sell components for a while, and sells replacement parts at highway robbery price, I think the message is clear: bring your business elsewhere. Therefore, as Eaulive mentionned, I think it is the enthusiasts' best interest to support local aftermarket suppliers into improving their product. "Supporting" could include working with them into making better recone kits. If it allows a couple American workers to get a job, I am all for it... :D

Perhaps I can even invite the dudes from Mackenzie to this discussion. Afterall, aftermarket suppliers are not neccessarely the ennemy.

The JBL OEM 2240 recone kit has aquaplas on about 1/3 of the rear of the cone up from the voice coil apex. 2245 has black aquaplas on the entire rear for the cone. Older 2245s had white aquaplas.

The problem with aftermarket cone suppliers is honesty. You will not get JBL performance from aftermarket kits. If you're willing to understand and accept that the aftermarket kits are considerably inferior, that's your choice. Most JBL fans want JBL performance and longevity.

VGC aftermarket kits are not worth the money. The voice coils are completely wrong and will burn up.

Caveat Emptor in the aftermarket. I've seen too many lies on incorrect repairs. If they're honest, no problem...you been disclosed.

Notice any obvious differences from the aftermarket pictured a few posts up? Aquaplas? Voice coil?

[RKLee]

.
.
Like I said, let's see before saying the product is sh**. Altec lansing cones are now made by a third party (GPA) and people seems to be happy with them so the same thing could happen with JBL stuff.The man that own GPA(Great Plains Audio) was a former Altec engineer. He bought the production equipment from the old Altec company. His equipment is about as close to real Altec as you will ever get.

[svollmer]

On top of the price difference between JBL and after-market recone kits, I thought another problem was that us "civilians" aren't pertmitted to purchase authentic JBL kits. They have to be sold along with the installation work by authorized repair shops.

Is that correct?

[Eaulive]

Notice any obvious differences from the aftermarket pictured a few posts up? Aquaplas? Voice coil?

Obviously, voice coil length and lack of aquaplas, there maybe more.

This is exacty what I'm referring to. If JBL specs could be available or properly measured so that the third parties could accurately reproduce them, I think it would be a bonus for everybody.

Maybe not for you however, since your business is professional reconing.

Just for fun, could you provide the VC length for 2225 and E140? Do you know about offsets and the details involved in making a cone/VC/spider assembly a genuine JBL cone?

At the base it's only paper, copper and glue.

[Lee in Montreal]

If JBL specs could be available or properly measured so that the third parties could accurately reproduce them, I think it would be a bonus for everybody

JBL needs not to publish specs. Any manufacturer could reproduce an exact copy by simply spending $240 on an original recone kit, and spend some time measuring it and trying to reproduce the exact same specs. Spider and suspension flex, cone rigidity and weight, voice-coil, etc. Make a first copy. Test T/S. Modify if necessary. Damn, if humanity can send men on the moon and make zoophilic porn available to every single house in the world, how come copying such a simple part is so difficult? :eek:

JBL drivers are not rocket science. They are industrialized mass-produced parts.

[1audiohack]

I for one hope that a top shelf supplier arises to fill our needs.

I do not expect JBL to help in any way other than making the decision to leave the legacey repair market open by failing to support it.

If you have ever done any thorough speaker testing it becomes apparent that there are probably a hundred things that can go wrong in trying to knock off a cone kit exactly. Think about the paper science itself.

If someone does it right, the success will not have come easily and don't be suprized that the cost may be even higher than the JBL kits.

[Eaulive]

If you have ever done any thorough speaker testing it becomes apparent that there are probably a hundred things that can go wrong in trying to knock off a cone kit exactly. Think about the paper science itself.

If someone does it right, the success will not have come easily and don't be suprized that the cost may be even higher than the JBL kits.

I agree that R&D was a very serious endeavour at JBL, but today this is done and one only has to replicate, like Lee said, it's mass produced and not that hard to make.

Proof is they're making it already, maybe they're not as spec, but the work of building them is the same.

[1audiohack]

I agree that R&D was a very serious endeavour at JBL, but today this is done and one only has to replicate, like Lee said, it's mass produced and not that hard to make.

Then why are they not flooding the market with correct kits now?



Proof is they're making it already, maybe they're not as spec, but the work of building them is the same.

Do you not see the contradiction in that statement?

[Eaulive]

Then why are they not flooding the market with correct kits now?




Do you not see the contradiction in that statement?

What I meant is that if they're not to spec, it's maybe not because of craftsmenship but just because they don't know the correct specs. It's a wild guess here, maybe they don't care about the exact spec also.
Once you set up a machine to edgewind copper ribbon, making it to spec or not does not involve more or less work, you just have to set the correct number of turns.

When you glue the former to the cone and spider, making it as JBL intended is only a matter of knowing where, at what depth, not how.

As easy it is to make it wrong, it is to make it right, I guess.

[Lee in Montreal]

Making a part properly is not more difficult than making it wrong. It only has to do with starting on the right foot and setting up the job properly.

if I were a JBL collector, I'd maybe spend extra for the original part just to show my friends the white greasy pen in the back of the cone. But as a user who might blow a few cones in the driver's lifetime, paying $80 instread of $240 makes a difference, especially if the sound was to be identical. :D

[edgewound]

Making a part properly is not more difficult than making it wrong. It only has to do with starting on the right foot and setting up the job properly.

if I were a JBL collector, I'd maybe spend extra for the original part just to show my friends the white greasy pen in the back of the cone. But as a user who might blow a few cones in the driver's lifetime, paying $80 instread of $240 makes a difference, especially if the sound was to be identical. :D

Some of you guys make this sound as if it's so easy to knock-off JBL moving assemblies with precision. Especially these people that can't get factory parts. Proof is in the pictures.

It doesn't take many $80 blown-up recones to amount to buying the right stuff that will give the expected performance for years to come...even decades to come.

I had a regular customer recently bring in 2 fried 2241G that were reconed by the regional aftermarket hack that claims he uses the "same parts that JBL uses". Not true in the least.

Moral of the story...customer wasted nearly twice as much money by trying to save money. I showed him the differences between the parts. He was not amused at his folly.

[Eaulive]

Some of you guys make this sound as if it's so easy to knock-off JBL moving assemblies with precision. Especially these people that can't get factory parts. Proof is in the pictures.

It doesn't take many $80 blown-up recones to amount to buying the right stuff that will give the expected performance for years to come...even decades to come.

I had a regular customer recently bring in 2 fried 2241G that were reconed by the regional aftermarket hack that claims he uses the "same parts that JBL uses". Not true in the least.

Moral of the story...customer wasted nearly twice as much money by trying to save money. I showed him the differences between the parts. He was not amused at his folly.

Well, if the supplier of aftermarket makes false claims like "it's all JBL" when it's not, it's another story and I agree with you.

[Robh3606]

Well, if the supplier of aftermarket makes false claims like "it's all JBL" when it's not, it's another story and I agree with you.

Well the issue as I see it is that by selling aftermarket kits for JBL'S they are implying that they are equivalent. I have never seen a disclaimer on an aftermarket kit that states it may not offer the same performance. If they tell you up front that they are not the same and may sound different fine. If they offer them as a cheaper alternative and leave the performance part out that doesn't seem quite right to me.

Rob:)

[pos]

Several kits are already NLA, and the number is growing. JBL does not seem to care that much about the vintage drivers, and any sota driver bought today and used at home will be vintage when it will need a recone... In fact they don't even sell recone kits anymore for these: as 4313b told us they send you a new replacement driver instead. But how long will they be willing to keep these replacement drivers around?? The 476Be is already NLA, how many replacement drivers do they have? The LE14H-3 also is....

Face it: as the lansing heritage group we have to take care of this issue before it is too late. We could contact Hawley, Mogami, Brush Wellman, ... and see what can be done.

Experimented JBL reconers like Edgewound would be great resources to maybe build something similar to GPA, for JBL drivers? Among all the former JBL employees that we have here, and all those that recently lost their jobs, something ought to be done!

[Mr. Widget]

...they send you a new replacement driver instead. But how long will they be willing to keep these replacement drivers around?? The 476Be is already NLA, how many replacement drivers do they have? The LE14H-3 also is....The 476Be and LE14H-3 are both still in current product being made and sold today so I don't think these drivers are NLA. That said, I do get your point and agree with you. It is a real shame that JBL is changing their business model to a more short sighted profit driven model. This may get reversed at some point, but for now, we do need to do our research before we buy a blown driver that can not be properly repaired.


Widget

[svollmer]

As I asked before, assuming that there are no aftermarket kits equivalent in quality and specs to JBL's kits, am I allowed to purchase a JBL kit without having to pay someone "authorized" to install it? If so, where?

[edgewound]

As I asked before, assuming that there are no aftermarket kits equivalent in quality and specs to JBL's kits, am I allowed to purchase a JBL kit without having to pay someone "authorized" to install it? If so, where?

This isn't a new question, but maybe if Mr. Widget or one of the other fine moderators sees this post and sees fit, it can be added as a sticky.

It's explicitly a violation of JBL's Factory Authorized Service Agency Agreement to sell Genuine JBL recone kits over-the-counter to non-authorized servicers. This policy does not apply for sales of replacement diaphragms for compression drivers or tweeters that are bolt-in parts. A warranty disclaimer is enclosed with every replacement part, and the warranty is the same for recone kits and replacement diaphragms.

If you purchase a Genuine JBL recone kit for self-installation you won't be covered by any type of factory warranty against defects or workmanship. The factory warranty for recones is 90 days. If you purchase a recone kit over-the-counter from a JBL Authorized Service Agency, the Service Agency is in violation of the Service Agency Agreement. The Service Agency Agreement is in place to protect all parties involved...especially, the customer.

The majority of the cost of a Genuine JBL recone is in the parts. The labor charge is nominal, and actually pretty cheap insurance that the job is supposed to be done correctly. Yes, there is a profit margin in the parts for Authorized Service Agencies, and that is part of the equation for hopefully staying in business...along with having customers referred by satisfied customers. Car dealers operate on the same principle.

With the above stated...It's the customer's choice to choose how to spend his money, and the Service Agency can set his own pricing. If the Service Agency offers a less expensive alternative in aftermarket parts when the transducer is beyond the factory warranty, that's between the customer and the Service Agency. If the Service Agency claims that his aftermarket parts meet or exceed OEM specifications he should be able to document it. Otherwise, you should expect to get what you paid for...diminished performance.

Also...If an In-Warranty JBL product is damaged by end-user mis-use or abuse, the JBL Authorized Service Agency is required to repair the unit with correct factory parts specified to maintain the remainder of the factory warranty. If the customer doesn't want to pay for Genuine JBL Parts and requests a less expensive alternative, he must be advised that the factory warranty will be voided and accept the responsibility for possible failure due to parts and workmanship. The Service Agency can offer his own warranty as an alternative, if available. All covered In-Warranty repairs due to factory defects must be completed with factory specified parts to maintain the remainder of the factory warranty coverage.

Lastly...If Genuine JBL replacement parts are no longer available from the factory and aftermarket parts are the only alternative for repair, your repair is going to be only as good as the servicer can provide...and some are better than others as we've all experienced at some point.

Hope this helps answer some questions about restoring and maintaining your beloved JBL drivers.

[svollmer]

Only $42 labor to recone an 18" JBL!!! Now I feel like an idiot for grumbling about not being able to buy a real JBL kit to install myself to save some money. :o:

$42 is CHEAP to have a professional do the work and provide the warranty. Thanks very much for the clarification and very useful information.

One question; can you open a franchise in the DC Metro area? :)

[John]

5050150500

Just for fun, could you provide the VC length for 2225 and E140? Do you know about offsets and the details involved in making a cone/VC/spider assembly a genuine JBL cone?



JBL 2225H

Total weight of assembled cone. 86g.
Add 2g. for dust cap. Glue weight for dust cap dependent on artist!
Coil former height. 1.125"
Coil winding height .680"

[ds23man]

Is this a original or remake?

Regards Gerhard

[Eaulive]

5050150500


JBL 2225H

Total weight of assembled cone. 86g.
Add 2g. for dust cap. Glue weight for dust cap dependent on artist!
Coil former height. 1.125"
Coil winding height .680"

Hey, thanks a bunch!
Now we need a guinea pig to try the AM cone :D
I for one have 4 original cones on the way :)

Anybody could do he same for a C8RE140?

[ds23man]

I have a 2235 remake!

Regards Gerhard

[John]

Is this a original or remake?

Regards Gerhard


Yes in my post I did say JBL 2225H

I have never had aftermarket.
If I was posting info for aftermarket kit I would indicate so.:)

[John]

Hey, thanks a bunch!

Anybody could do he same for a C8RE140?

No C8RE140, but I can do C8R2245 and C8R2235 if there is interest:)

[Eaulive]

No C8RE140, but I can do C8R2245 and C8R2235 if there is interest:)

There is always interest, and the picture you took is also useful.

We should make this thread a reference now that I think about it.

[Eaulive]

5050150500


JBL 2225H

Total weight of assembled cone. 86g.
Add 2g. for dust cap. Glue weight for dust cap dependent on artist!
Coil former height. 1.125"
Coil winding height .680"

Just measure mine (four of them).

From 89 to 94 g without cap
former 24mm (0.945")
coil 16mm (0.630")

Weird.

Are yours the newer kits made in Mexico or the older made in USA?

[Lee in Montreal]

JBL specs the coil winding height as 0.63"

[John]

Just measure mine (four of them).

From 89 to 94 g without cap
former 24mm (0.945")
coil 16mm (0.630")

Weird.

Are yours the newer kits made in Mexico or the older made in USA?

MADE IN THE USA. :thmbsup:

[Eaulive]

MADE IN THE USA. :thmbsup:

I have to admit that the kits made in Mexico _even if they appear as spec_ don't have the clean craftsmenship the US made kits have.

It's been less than a year now since they moved production accross the border, let's give them a chance.

[4313B]

It's been less than a year now since they moved production accross the border, let's give them a chance.In a pig's eye... they killed the mood last summer.

[ivica]

Except, of course, that they are not original JBL.

Considering that 2240 baskets can be had for under $50 and that a pre-assembled 2245h recone kit is $80.00, I think it becomes a no brainer for bass heads.

http://reconekits.com/jbl2245h8ohmreconekit.aspx

50302
I think the main differences would be in the cone material stiffness. The cone for 2245H is very stiff and 'heavy" (about 200gr). The cone itself is relatively water resistant (does not absorb a lot from drop of water), but some "compatible" one is sometime thirsty.

[4313B]

In a pig's eye... they killed the mood last summer.Well hell... I'll get to see how the "new" 2245H kits look in a week or two...

[Eaulive]

Well hell... I'll get to see how the "new" 2245H kits look in a week or two...

I hope you'll measure it, coil, former, weight and all before dropping it in.
And post pictures too! ;)

[maxwedge]

Well hell... I'll get to see how the "new" 2245H kits look in a week or two...
I'm in the market for a pair of those soon and would love to hear your option.:)
But regardless, I guess I won't have much of a choice unless I find some one who has stock piled old kits.:dont-know:

[Eaulive]

I'm in the market for a pair of those soon and would love to hear your option.:)
But regardless, I guess I won't have much of a choice unless I find some one who has stock piled old kits.:dont-know:

I guess JBL still has 2245 kits available, did you check?
Not a good idea to buy NOS of those, sometimes the foam is rotten in the box. :banghead:

[maxwedge]

I guess JBL still has 2245 kits available, did you check?
Not a good idea to buy NOS of those, sometimes the foam is rotten in the box. :banghead:
I haven't checked yet because I've been a bit of spending $ whore lately.:eek:
But I need to get them done before I can't them anymore. Mine are fine but are aftermarket and it appears that the impedance curve is different between the pair.

These are mine>>
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?30704-%282%29-4645-K-cabinets-loaded-with-2245H-drivers

[Eaulive]

I emailed them today with questions about 2225 kits.
Somewhere in their website they sell the same VC for 2225 and E140... not a good sign.

Before starting to beyatch I'm gonna wait for what they have to say, they maybe have the best intentions and are willing to learn to provide the best product possible, who knows.

Well it's been more than a month now and have no reply from them. :dont-know:

[VSN]

Yet then again, you-all tend to be a bit more fussy......

I was in need of a 2245H cone and the JBL price was a bit much at over $300!

Wanting a preassembled unit like JBL sends, I asked MacKenzie if he would make one up as they were not listed on his site.

Slam-dunk, the well packed kit was at my door in less than a week, looks & sounds just like a JBL to me!

All for just under $100 to boot.....

Would I do it again? You bet!:bouncy:

Cheers,
VSN

[maxwedge]

http://mwaspeakerparts.com/index.html
But you have to be a business to buy or even look at their catalog.

This 2241 on ebay is said to be MWA...item 110638940031

Found an older thread with some info
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?9916-What-to-watch-out-for-on-re-cones

[Eaulive]

http://mwaspeakerparts.com/index.html
But you have to be a business to buy or even look at their catalog.

This 2241 on ebay is said to be MWA...item 110638940031

As far as I can see no edgewound aluminum ribbon there!

[4313B]

Yet then again, you-all tend to be a bit more fussy......Well, yeah!

:rotfl:

What's the point of buying a nice expensive core with great engineering behind it only to put some second rate software in it.

I was in need of a 2245H cone and the JBL price was a bit much at over $300!Well that part is absurd! They act as if the effing things were still made in Northridge by people making a decent wage for a decent day's work... assholes...

[kartsmart]

Well, yeah!

:rotfl:


Well that part is absurd! They act as if the effing things were still made in Northridge by people making a decent wage for a decent day's work... assholes...



They are paying $15.00 a day labor and the price went up .... Don't figure

[Maron Horonzakz]

The $15 a day labor does not include overhead..(CEO)

[kartsmart]

Then justify it

[VSN]

You all have seen it before; a current model kit is cheap compared to a kit no longer in production. So JBL waits to make a “special” run of these outdated kits and charges extra for their effort.

A 035TiA diaphragm kit costs 3X of a current model 052Ti? It sure ain't about material, they simply are looking to cover the expense of the special set up and this price increase is what opens the door to competition.

Now this is where the thread started, can a USA vendor accurately fill the need?

A big point often over looked on this forum and what has been in debate in this thread is the basic fact that a collector uses a different set of standards over a hobbyist or consumer; there is a BIG difference and neither side is right!

I think EVERYONE would rather use OEM parts, that is not the topic.:banghead:

Those just entering the hobby or are looking to buy refurbished gear rarely embody the same standards when it comes to justifying the added cost of OEM parts, even though they might fully understand the concern.

So in choosing an OEM kit over a quality aftermarket kit, one really has to define what are the priorities and the criteria used for satisfaction? When it comes to parting with hard earned discretionary income, not everyone will agree.

As I refurbish, modify and upgrade vintage stereo systems, my customers rarely are collectors so price is always an issue when it comes to making a sale. If I can get a JBL kit on the "black market" for a good price, I do!

IMHO, I do not think we as a group should get indignant with one another if a particular point of view is not equally embraced, it only sours the original topic……..

Cheers,
VSN

[Ducatista47]

IMHO, I do not think we as a group should get indignant with one another if a particular point of view is not equally embraced, it only sours the original topic……..

Cheers,
VSN
Sadly, typical internet behavior. Some use forums as their social life. Understandable in this age of isolation, but sad. Factor in the lack of immediate contextual clues when conversation is not in person, or even by voice, and misunderstanding is rampant.

The whole thing could be avoided by going back to please and thank you, but what passed for rudeness years ago is deemed acceptable behavior today. So that is not going to happen. The two things a reasonable and polite person (read: Old School) needs on the web are a thick skin and the ability to ignore rude jerks.

Clark

[4313B]

Clark, what are you going on about? :blink:


Why are you guys even messing around with JBL components? They're expensive. How about simply using more affordable components in the first place. :rolleyes:

[JeffW]

Why are you guys even messing around with JBL components? They're expensive. How about simply using more affordable components in the first place. :rolleyes:

I made the exact same point a while back. Somebody was grousing about the cost of a 2245H recone kit and I pointed out that Parts Express had 40 some odd 18" drivers listed (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?30531-Subs-(Revisiting-Again)-Dual-JBL-2245H&p=307806&viewfull=1#post307806). Instead of bastardizing a JBL core, just buy a BRAND NEW Brand X driver and go to town! Why anybody would want a semi-JBL retread instead of a BRAND NEW Brand X is beyond me.

The part that kills me is stuff like This Thread (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?29404-JBL-2404H-Low-Output). Post after post, just can't understand.

Then it gets suddenly and dramatically resolved in

Post #29 (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?29404-JBL-2404H-Low-Output&p=296523&viewfull=1#post296523)

:blink:

[Eaulive]

Instead of bastardizing a JBL core, just buy a BRAND NEW Brand X driver and go to town! Why anybody would want a semi-JBL retread instead of a BRAND NEW Brand X is beyond me.

:yes::applaud::yes:

[Ducatista47]

Clark, what are you going on about? :blink:


Why are you guys even messing around with JBL components? They're expensive. How about simply using more affordable components in the first place. :rolleyes:
Sorry, I took VSN's lament of internet "sour"(ness) to be evidence of one remaining soul who thinks forums can be a place of agreeable decorum. Considering this impossible at this point, I gave what little advice I could. I wasn't calling anyone in particular a rude jerk. Not that they are hard to find at Head-Fi.;)

I plan to use factory parts, or what passes for them these days, to get two 2245H cores reconed. I must be old school all around.

[4313B]

I plan to use factory parts, or what passes for them these days, to get two 2245H cores reconed. I must be old school all around.I'm anxious to see how the latest 2245H kits look... I have a bunch that I ordered prior to June 2010 for 4345 refreshes and I'll compare them with these new kits.

[spkrman57]

I'm anxious to see how the latest 2245H kits look... I have a bunch that I ordered prior to June 2010 for 4345 refreshes and I'll compare them with these new kits.


Hopefully they work as they should!

Regards, Ron

[Lee in Montreal]

I'm anxious to see how the latest 2245H kits look... I have a bunch that I ordered prior to June 2010 for 4345 refreshes and I'll compare them with these new kits.

Please report when you have them. I am still looking for 2240/e155 empty baskets just to test the Mackenzie 2245 recone kits. $80 vs $300... Hmmm...

[4313B]

Hopefully they work as they should!

Regards, RonI received them yesterday but haven't had the time to look at them. They do say "Made in Mexico" on the label.

I also have eight from Northridge that I bought at Greg's urging before the June 2010 deadline. I'm still pretty disgusted with the whole turn of events. I'm not convinced that I'll ever get over it. It's one of those things you walk away from in thorough disgust shaking your head at the idiocy.

In all fairness, the JBL kits have changed over the years; Hawley cones, Mogami cones, a few fails from other resources tossed in there for good measure, etc.

[4313B]

I did a physical inspection of two "Made in Mexico" kits with the "Made in U.S.A." kits and visually they are quite similar. One of the "Made in Mexico" kits has a couple discolorations on the front of the cone but I've seen similar on "Made in U.S.A." kits over the years so no change there.

I'll measure their mass when I have a minute or two. I'm on the old seven day work week for the next few months.

[Eaulive]

I did a physical inspection of two "Made in Mexico" kits with the "Made in U.S.A." kits and visually they are quite similar. One of the "Made in Mexico" kits has a couple discolorations on the front of the cone but I've seen similar on "Made in U.S.A." kits over the years so no change there.

I'll measure their mass when I have a minute or two. I'm on the old seven day work week for the next few months.

Thanks, keep us posted!

[greg32]

im after a replacement cone for a 2245h and was hoping to hear peoples results here regarding the aftermarket cones. origional cone here in australia cost $450 and install another $75 so that is my reason for looking at the aftermarket as an option. unless anyone has new old stock oem cone for sale? thanks Greg

[Lee in Montreal]

Considering the $80 cost of the Mackenzie part, which is much, much lower than what you'd pay for an original cone, perhaps it is worth giving it a try.

Lee

[warpig]

I had to add my 2 cents into this thread. I would love to see someone replicate the recone kits exactly as the original JBL kits. I do not mind paying JBL for the original kits if they are available.

Some say why do you want to put in a aftermarket kit? Then it no longer sounds like the original.

Well what goes in a 136A? A 2235 kit. Is it exactly the same? From what I understand it is not. What about the 122a? There is not a 122a kit any longer its a 129 if I am not mistaken. So is the 136 or the 122 still a 122 or a 136. Its not its a franken speaker.

So if some one could replicate a 122 or 136 kit exactly as the original kit I would gladly give them my hard earned money. I do not care if it says JBL or not as long as the speaker still has the orginal specs I will be very very HAPPY :applaud:

Face the fact this is what it is going to come to. JBL is going to make less and less replacement parts. It must be nice to hoard kits before they stop making them. Unfortunately many of us can not do this.

Just My Thoughts

[edgewound]

I had to add my 2 cents into this thread. I would love to see someone replicate the recone kits exactly as the original JBL kits. I do not mind paying JBL for the original kits if they are available.

Some say why do you want to put in a aftermarket kit? Then it no longer sounds like the original.

Well what goes in a 136A? A 2235 kit. Is it exactly the same? From what I understand it is not. What about the 122a? There is not a 122a kit any longer its a 129 if I am not mistaken. So is the 136 or the 122 still a 122 or a 136. Its not its a franken speaker.

So if some one could replicate a 122 or 136 kit exactly as the original kit I would gladly give them my hard earned money. I do not care if it says JBL or not as long as the speaker still has the orginal specs I will be very very HAPPY :applaud:

Face the fact this is what it is going to come to. JBL is going to make less and less replacement parts. It must be nice to hoard kits before they stop making them. Unfortunately many of us can not do this.

Just My Thoughts

The recone kits you mention and the kits that go into a frame as spec'd by the factory are the upgraded versions.

A D120F "kit" is no longer made because the kit to repair a D120F is the E120 recone kit which brings the model up to improved, latest specs.

[JeffW]

I do not mind paying JBL for the original kits if they are available.

They (C8R2245) are AFAIK.
So if you don't mind paying for JBL kits, get your drivers reconed.


It must be nice to hoard kits before they stop making them. Unfortunately many of us can not do this.



And unless they are an authorized JBL repair shop, they won't be hoarding any kits, either.

[Mr. Widget]

The recone kits you mention and the kits that go into a frame as spec'd by the factory are the upgraded versions.

A D120F "kit" is no longer made because the kit to repair a D120F is the E120 recone kit which brings the model up to improved, latest specs.Well, upgraded... sure newer construction techniques, better glues and greater power handling, but in these cases, I am with warpig. Yes, the 2235H has lower distortion than the 136A or 136H, but it also has a different sound. I am not a guitarist, but many who are do prefer the sound of the older more fragile D120Fs.

I am not saying that I would rather listen to a 136A over a 2235H. However in a L300 I would want a perfect 136A and in a 4430 I would want a 2235H. If I was starting from the ground up, I'd rather have a 1500AL. ;)


Widget

[Altec Best]

Altec lansing cones are now made by a third party (GPA) and people seems to be happy with them so the same thing could happen with JBL stuff.

Difference is Bill Hanuschak (GPA Owner) bought all the tooling from the OKC plant when they closed so they are essentially Altec.The cones however maybe slightly different, but I had 2 pair of 416B's re-coned by Bill and they measured at factory spec when I got them back, in fact they are T/S matched.And sound great.I needed them matched for a dual woofer box configuration.

Unless someone bought the tooling from the JBL plant in Northridge,I don't see the same thing happening with JBL ! UNFORTUNATELY !! :(

[4313B]

Well, upgraded... sure newer construction techniques, better glues and greater power handling, but in these cases, I am with warpig. Yes, the 2235H has lower distortion than the 136A or 136H, but it also has a different sound. I am not a guitarist, but many who are do prefer the sound of the older more fragile D120Fs.

I am not saying that I would rather listen to a 136A over a 2235H. However in a L300 I would want a perfect 136A and in a 4430 I would want a 2235H. If I was starting from the ground up, I'd rather have a 1500AL. ;)


WidgetThe 1500AL is factory service only and since there isn't a factory anymore... :rotfl:

In the past we only had to keep recone kits in reserve, now we have to keep whole drivers in reserve. :p And they're really, really expensive!

[JeffW]

The 1500AL is factory service only and since there isn't a factory anymore... :rotfl:

Ah, come on. MacKenzie will build you a cone kit! :applaud:

[4313B]

Ah, come on. MacKenzie will build you a cone kit! :applaud:You know, you might get your other driver one day. There's another reorg and firings coming up and there's a 50-50 chance that the right people will get fired instead of the wrong people. If the right people get fired, you'll experience stereo, if the wrong people get fired it's mono for you dude.

[JeffW]

You know, you might get your other driver one day. There's another reorg and firings coming up and there's a 50-50 chance that the right people will get fired instead of the wrong people. If the right people get fired, you'll experience stereo, if the wrong people get fired it's mono for you dude.

I've all but conceded defeat. After all this time they occasionally show to have some in the system, but they never send any to consumer. I'll never play a single, I might make a lamp out of it or something.

[1audiohack]

You just need to go scrounge around at the south of the border plant Jeff, judging by the looks of the second one they sent you they must use them for tire chocks down there.

[JeffW]

judging by the looks of the second one they sent you they must use them for tire chocks down there.

Now there's an idea! But I'd still like to have 2 tire chocks.

[edgewound]

Well, upgraded... sure newer construction techniques, better glues and greater power handling, but in these cases, I am with warpig. Yes, the 2235H has lower distortion than the 136A or 136H, but it also has a different sound. I am not a guitarist, but many who are do prefer the sound of the older more fragile D120Fs.

I am not saying that I would rather listen to a 136A over a 2235H. However in a L300 I would want a perfect 136A and in a 4430 I would want a 2235H. If I was starting from the ground up, I'd rather have a 1500AL. ;)


Widget

Hi Widget,

I am a guitarist and and have reconed many D120Fs with the E120 kit. The end result is a K120. In every instance so far, the feedback has been unanimous that it's an improvement in every way. Power handling, durability, low frequency response, smoother and less shrill upper midrange. Many players like the sound of the ceramic E120 due to the more accurate and fatter mids and tactile response from the bigger motor despite the weight gain.

YMMV...but better is better when it lets the player do more with his/her amp and guitar. It's a different market and use, indeed, from HiFi.

[Fort Knox]

On top of the price difference between JBL and after-market recone kits, I thought another problem was that us "civilians" aren't pertmitted to purchase authentic JBL kits. They have to be sold along with the installation work by authorized repair shops.

Is that correct?

I bought 2 JBL 2241G's (18") from a recone dealer for $39 ea
cause he had no license...:bouncy:

[winslow]

Does no one here read Voice Coil magazine and/or have seen the Loudspeaker Inindustry source book?

The "OEM" stuff is mostly Chinese-made if you believe the ads and who they produce for. Precision Econowind in Florida makes the coils for the DD speakers, and you as an individual can by samples straight from them.

I can't speak for the rebuild kits that were made back in the 80s, but chances are very great if the speaker was made in the last 15 years, the original parts were more than likely sourced from China.

[edgewound]

Does no one here read Voice Coil magazine and/or have seen the Loudspeaker Inindustry source book?

The "OEM" stuff is mostly Chinese-made if you believe the ads and who they produce for. Precision Econowind in Florida makes the coils for the DD speakers, and you as an individual can by samples straight from them.

I can't speak for the rebuild kits that were made back in the 80s, but chances are very great if the speaker was made in the last 15 years, the original parts were more than likely sourced from China.

You seem awfully sure of that.

Just because an ad with a picture of a voice coil that fits a JBL driver doesn't mean that is the OEM producer.

I use Precision Econowind voice coils in speakers that I build for another company and they are very good. I have also seen Precision Econowind edgewound voice coils that are meant for the D/K/E series speakers. They are not the same as OEM construction but you have to know what to look for to know that, and what the various failure modes are.

So to answer your question, the answer is yes. There are also US/North American producers of soft parts that supply JBL/Harman.

To say that all the parts are sourced from China, I believe, is inaccurate.

[winslow]

The oldest issue I have for the Loudspeaker Inidustry Sourcebook is 2009...and in it is an ad for Po Yun Enterprises. This ad lists who the OEM for- B&C, Faital, Matsushita, Pioneer, Philips, and Harman.

But I thought you you said Precision Econowind? They are now the same company after PY bought PE.

http://www.poyun.com/ (http://www.poyun.com/en/links.jsp)

There are very few US sources for soft parts these days, but more sources for that than say magnets and baskets.

You seem awfully sure of that.

Just because an ad with a picture of a voice coil that fits a JBL driver doesn't mean that is the OEM producer.

I use Precision Econowind voice coils in speakers that I build for another company and they are very good. I have also seen Precision Econowind edgewound voice coils that are meant for the D/K/E series speakers. They are not the same as OEM construction but you have to know what to look for to know that, and what the various failure modes are.

So to answer your question, the answer is yes. There are also US/North American producers of soft parts that supply JBL/Harman.

To say that all the parts are sourced from China, I believe, is inaccurate.

[winslow]

But I never said ALL soft parts were sourced from China...just that a lot are sourced from China regardless of where the speaker is assembled. There are still a few US companies making said parts.

And it is sad that this is the case.

[edgewound]

But I never said ALL soft parts were sourced from China...just that a lot are sourced from China regardless of where the speaker is assembled. There are still a few US companies making said parts.

And it is sad that this is the case.

And...you can never trust what an ad from a Chinese company says is 100% accurate. Intellectual property laws are pretty much non-existent. you can quiz any number of companies on that issue.

That said, the voice we coils get from Precision Econowind for guitar speakers come from Florida.

[winslow]

Po Yun bought Precision Econowind...they are the same company.

Look at the link I posted, it has a few small companies they OEM for. I am sure if it weren't true, then some of them could do something about it.

And another link:

http://www.loudspeakeruniversity.com/clients.html

[edgewound]

Po Yun bought Precision Econowind...they are the same company.

Look at the link I posted, it has a few small companies they OEM for. I am sure if it weren't true, then some of them could do something about it.

And another link:

http://www.loudspeakeruniversity.com/clients.html

So...in other words, you're stating as fact that all JBL voice coils are made in China by Po Yun? Regardless if it's for Pro Audio/Cinema, Home Audio/ Home Theater, Custom Home Install, Car Audio, Computer speakers or ear buds? Everything?

And you're also stating that Precision Econowind doesn't make voice coils in it's Ft. Meyers, Florida facility?

http://www.precisioneconowind.com/

If you dig a little into the internet, you'll discover on the Po Yun website "Customers" link that Harman/Becker Automotive is a customer. JBL Professional is not listed. Precision Econowind is listed as a customer...in line with Precision Econowind's statement that they are the sole US contact/agent for Po Yun.

http://www.poyun.com/en/links.jsp

[winslow]

No offense, but you are being a bit dense aren't you? I didn't say any of that.

But on the Po Yun website they list GGEC as a customer and they do make the some/all of the woofers for the Synthesis system and some components of a couple Pro Audio pieces.

I said- Po Yun bought Precision Econowind. They make voice coils for some HI products. They are advertising in a picture ad a dual coil voice coil...Differential Drive?

I said- back in the day chances were good that nearly everything could have been made on this continent. Now, chances are good that nearly everything is sourced from China. That it is getting harder to source components in the USA.

I don't see what is so hard to grasp.


So...in other words, you're stating as fact that all JBL voice coils are made in China by Po Yun? Regardless if it's for Pro Audio/Cinema, Home Audio/ Home Theater, Custom Home Install, Car Audio, Computer speakers or ear buds? Everything?

And you're also stating that Precision Econowind doesn't make voice coils in it's Ft. Meyers, Florida facility?

http://www.precisioneconowind.com/

If you dig a little into the internet, you'll discover on the Po Yun website "Customers" link that Harman/Becker Automotive is a customer. JBL Professional is not listed. Precision Econowind is listed as a customer...in line with Precision Econowind's statement that they are the sole US contact/agent for Po Yun.

http://www.poyun.com/en/links.jsp

[edgewound]

No offense, but you are being a bit dense aren't you? I didn't say any of that.

But on the Po Yun website they list GGEC as a customer and they do make the some/all of the woofers for the Synthesis system and some components of a couple Pro Audio pieces.

I said- Po Yun bought Precision Econowind. They make voice coils for some HI products. They are advertising in a picture ad a dual coil voice coil...Differential Drive?

I said- back in the day chances were good that nearly everything could have been made on this continent. Now, chances are good that nearly everything is sourced from China. That it is getting harder to source components in the USA.

I don't see what is so hard to grasp.

When did Po Yun buy Precision Econowind? Since when did GGEC make drivers for Synthesis? Where's your proof? I can see that Harman's laptop speakers for Toshiba are made by GGEC. The following quote is from Prescion Econowind's website. Nowhere is it disclosed that Po Yun owns them.



Precision Econowind, Inc. is a privately owned American company that manufactures custom coils for the loudspeaker, medical, aerospace, and many other industries. Loyal Tingley, Jr. and his son Terry started the business from a one-car garage in Bokeelia, Florida in 1972. Today Precision Econowind, Inc. is owned and operated by Terry Tingley and Dean Wiant. Precision has become one of the world's premier custom coil manufacturer that supplies many of the largest companies around the world in many different industires.
At Precision our goal is to consistently provide the highest possible quality, at a competitive price, with on-time delivery. Our specialty has been voice coils for the loudspeaker industry, and we are very proud that our coils are used in speakers made by companies worldwide. Since then times have changed as we have branched out in to other industries from our core business of voice coils for loudspeakers to high quality custom voice coils for medical, OEM, Aerospace and just about any other industry that uses custom voice coils in their products. Specializing in voice coils has given us experience in winding precision layered coils using bondable wire. This skill is the foundation for many of our other custom coils, especially freestanding coils that require the most efficient possible use of space, which can best be accomplished using precision layered winding with no bobbin or core.
We occupy 32,000 square feet of manufacturing space in Southwest Florida. Our winding machines and tooling are custom designed by us and built by our own machine shop specialists. For coils requiring high temperature resistance we coat our own wire and form material with high temperature adhesives.









The thing that's hard to grasp is your supposed expertise in this subject. You're now up to post number 11. Apparently you just joined this week to school us on JBL lore. Why is that?

Harman's manufacturing base is now in Mexico with R&D and prototyping still in Northridge.. BTW...What is your relationship with Harman and from where do you get your info?

[4313B]

Harman/JBL sources all of their drivers from different vendors (one of them used to be JBL Professional Manufacturing in Northridge until some jackass saw fit to disassemble it). I know many of the smaller Synthesis drivers are made in China. Some of the engineering is also done in China. A visiting Chinese engineer actually designed all the mf and lf inverted dome transducers in the JBL Performance Series with our favorite JBL engineer overseeing the endeavor.

[edgewound]

Harman/JBL sources all of their drivers from different vendors (one of them used to be JBL Professional Manufacturing in Northridge until some jackass saw fit to disassemble it). I know many of the smaller Synthesis drivers are made in China. Some of the engineering is also done in China. A visiting Chinese engineer actually designed all the mf and lf inverted dome transducers in the JBL Performance Series with our favorite JBL engineer overseeing the endeavor.

My current JBL Pro stuff says Made In Mexico. Recone kits and replacement diaphragms.

The large edgewound voice coils are still made with same construction techniques used in the 1980's.

[4313B]

Yep, alot of the TOLT drivers are now made in Mexico as are the kits (JBL Pro Manufacturing).

For example, Synthesis 6 and Synthesis 8 drivers for the SAM series are built by GGEC in China as were the eight and ten inch drivers in the Array Series. The LE14H-3 in the largest Array comes from JBL Pro Manufacturing.

There are other suppliers including Audax. Nexus is in there somewhere, I don't know if they made the 1500AL for awhile or not. I've lost track.


As for recone kits, I recently compared two C8R2245H kits from Mexico to several I already had on hand from years ago and they were identical. On the other hand, all the C8R2121 kits I recently received were junk.

[winslow]

GGEC:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?27255-WTB-Synthesis-8&highlight=GGEC

The Po Yun and Precision Econowind was in a 2009 issue of Voice Coil magazine...I will have to dig through them and see which issue it is, and if I still have the print issue.

And with Loudspeaker Components acquiring Nu-Way, there are about 5 companies in the US making soft parts. Which Nu-Way had established a factory in Mexico before the buy out. Mogami also has plants in the US and Mexico...but they've been acquired by Pioneer Electronics.

So what, you have a problem with someone having a low post count?

I joined this week so I could have access to the classifieds because I am wanting a trio of 2118s for my car. And I wanted to see if there was any more information about the 226J and 228H here that I couldn't find elsewhere.

I have no relation the HI. I do know the Global Director of Mobile Audio for JBL...he's a member of a forum that I am a moderator on. I used to compete against a lot of Team JBL cars when I competed IASCA.

Tell you what, over on the forum that I am a moderator on (DIY Mobile Audio), we have a Klippel Distortion Analyzer with all of the goodies except for the laser. If you wanted a really really really detailed analysis of a speaker, we can do it for you there. So we can measure a stock 2118H and a reconed 2118H with an aftermarket kit and see EXACTLY how far these kits are apart from each other. We can do all of the tests that Zaph et. al do- multi tone distortion tests, waterfall plots, distortion tests, and we do BL(x), Bl, Cms, Kms symmetry. Le(x), which parts of the speaker are the most prominent distortion sources, T/S from a WT2. If anyone wants to really see how good or bad the aftermarket kits are compared to OEM, we can do it there...only thing is his jig as of now is limited to speakers about 8". We will be doing subwoofers as soon as he makes a larger jig.

[tomt]

The thing that's hard to grasp is your supposed expertise in this subject. You're now up to post number 11. Apparently you just joined this week to school us on JBL lore. Why is that?

Harman's manufacturing base is now in Mexico with R&D and prototyping still in Northridge.. BTW...What is your relationship with Harman and from where do you get your info?


another thing thats hard to grasp is your enthusiasm

for some kind of fight.

that sort of immaturity doesn't help us much.


My current JBL Pro stuff says Made In Mexico. Recone kits and replacement diaphragms. The large edgewound voice coils are still made with same construction techniques used in the 1980's.


precision econowind, having their own machinery,

and personnel to build and run the same,

doesn't preclude the jbl voice coils from being made in china.


as far as something looking the same as,

look here -

http://www.lmaudio.net/cp_l.aspx?ddiqu=佛山 (http://www.lmaudio.net/cp_l.aspx?ddiqu=佛山)

[4313B]

I'm pretty sure the voice coils for the loudspeakers made in Mexico are wound in Mexico.
I'm pretty sure the voice coils for the loudspeakers made in China are wound in China.

[Mr. Widget]

While I suppose it is moderately interesting where a Global Corporation has it's various bits and pieces manufactured, what does any of this have to do with Mackenzie? ;)


Widget

[JeffW]

While I suppose it is moderately interesting where a Global Corporation has it's various bits and pieces manufactured, what does any of this have to do with Mackenzie? ;)


Widget

We want to tour their Scottish assembly plant so we can take side excursions to some Scotch distilleries?

[edgewound]

another thing thats hard to grasp is your enthusiasm

for some kind of fight.

that sort of immaturity doesn't help us much.




precision econowind, having their own machinery,

and personnel to build and run the same,

doesn't preclude the jbl voice coils from being made in china.


as far as something looking the same as,

look here -

http://www.lmaudio.net/cp_l.aspx?ddiqu=佛山 (http://www.lmaudio.net/cp_l.aspx?ddiqu=佛山)

My enthusiasm isn't for a fight. It's for accurate information. I'm just as disgusted as everyone at the dismantling of of Harman/JBL....but lets keep the facts straight.

BTW, Winslow I'm looking at the 2009 Loudspeaker Industry Sourcebook ad on page 63 where the Precision Econowind ad is located. They are an American agent of Po Yun. Precision Econowind is a privately owned American company, according to their own website. They will also make voice coils to order for anyone that will pay for them, and they do have tooling that will fit JBL drivers. I've seen them.

But....Everything JBL is not made in China. The top-line and legacy parts are still made in North America. The parts I've received in the last few months have been up to Northridge standards...which has been a long road to get straightened out.

I will still stand by my accounts that I've not yet seen an aftermarket recone that stands up to the OEM parts when the OEM parts are up to standard. I had a conversation with Dave Wheeler the other day about the small differences in voice coil construction that determines how well it's going to stand up under high power. Small details are important when it comes to a drivers longevity....not just the T/S parameters, or how well it tests with a Woofer Tester, Klippel, etc. BTW....T/S parameters won't predict how a loudspeaker sounds above 100 Hz. I've talked servicers that claim they tested the 2245 with a woofer tester and say the aftermarket is just as good. Well...It can't be just as good because the details aren't present that makes the 2245 sound like it does. And why pay for an aftermarket recone if you're not going to get the OEM sound or durability.

Anyway...I'll still carry the torch till the torch burns out. Carry on. Much of the reason JBL left the the playing field here in California can be blamed on the people in Sacramento and elsewhere that hates that we make the best stuff on Earth. They might get a clue when all the tax revenue from business sources disappears completely...and manufacturing is best way to get there.

[Mr. Widget]

Anyway...I'll still carry the torch till the torch burns out. Carry on. Much of the reason JBL left the the playing field here in California can be blamed on the people in Sacramento and elsewhere that hates that we make the best stuff on Earth. They might get a clue when all the tax revenue from business sources disappears completely...and manufacturing is best way to get there.Hey Edge... no politics. On the left it is corporate greed, on the right it is governmental regulations... we've beaten it to death... no one is going to change their opinions based on an out of round voice coil debate.


Widget

[winslow]

That is the beauty of the Klippel machine, it will tell you exactly where the differences are why the effect the sound. We have a few people on DIYMA who have 2118s and one who lives close the the fellow who has the machine...I am pushing for them to test the 2118, which as far as I can tell are original. I mean I love those speakers, and loved the 2204s that I had. The 2204s went to the dump because they were in need of reconing and to get them reconed with factory parts would cost more than what I could find original used 2204s for. I mean I couldn't give them away because the motors were so heavy to ship.

Don't think that I am pro-China made equipment though. I have a friend who owned a small car speaker company called Image Dynamics, and heard many a horror story about Chinese made parts.

I know the aftermarket isn't as good as OEM...but I wonder exactly how bad it is.

[JeffW]

The 2118 is kind of fragile with a pretty thin cone. You won't be able to give those baskets away, either.

[edgewound]

That is the beauty of the Klippel machine, it will tell you exactly where the differences are why the effect the sound. We have a few people on DIYMA who have 2118s and one who lives close the the fellow who has the machine...I am pushing for them to test the 2118, which as far as I can tell are original. I mean I love those speakers, and loved the 2204s that I had. The 2204s went to the dump because they were in need of reconing and to get them reconed with factory parts would cost more than what I could find original used 2204s for. I mean I couldn't give them away because the motors were so heavy to ship.

Don't think that I am pro-China made equipment though. I have a friend who owned a small car speaker company called Image Dynamics, and heard many a horror story about Chinese made parts.

I know the aftermarket isn't as good as OEM...but I wonder exactly how bad it is.

Bummer, winslow....I've got a number of NOS 2204 kits from the late '80s. The frames also make a good candidate for some others models, like a de-powered E120...A ceramic K120, if you will.

I've also got a number of NOS E120 frames that will accept the 2204 kit but the mid will be bumped up a bit at the expense of some low end. Never-the-less...still a beast to work with.

How bad the after market is is in the construction/material details. Details make a huge difference. I've received parts in kit form from a respected prolific supplier and just shook my head. Voice coil and spider pretty good...cone not even close to OEM shape or cosmetics.

Anyway...it'd be interesting to see the Klippel analysis of the 2118. It's a pretty nice driver in it's own right.

[edgewound]

Hey Edge... no politics. On the left it is corporate greed, on the right it is governmental regulations... we've beaten it to death... no one is going to change their opinions based on an out of round voice coil debate.


Widget

I tried not to go there Widget....but sometimes if enough you-know-who's read internet opinions on what's happening in their world, they might actually do something positive for everyone.

[winslow]

Well if I had listened to my heart when I built this car, I would have gone straight to the 2118s off of the bat. But I was trying to find some of that secret sauce that I love with the JBLs elsewhere...and while somethings were nice and good, it just wasn't the same. And yeah the 2118s aren't spring chickens in their own right, but I doubt they would be going anywhere for a very very long time. If I could get just a little more lowend from them, it would be the perfect speaker for a car IMO.

And yeah, I kick myself everyday for sending those guys to their deaths. I didn't realize then one of the beauties of JBL cone drivers- that you could have several different drivers using the same basket/motor. And maybe that is what I need now...some frankenstein speaker.

Anyways, edgewound, be looking for a PM from me asking for some help. I know like 3 JBL models that I like and maybe you could find me something more better.

[4313B]

My enthusiasm isn't for a fight. It's for accurate information.I appreciate that. :)
Much of the reason JBL left the the playing field here in California can be blamed on the people in Sacramento and elsewhere that hates that we make the best stuff on Earth. They might get a clue when all the tax revenue from business sources disappears completely...and manufacturing is best way to get there.It's probably because JBL uses chemicals that are toxic in the State of California. If you move those chemicals south of the border they magically lose their toxicity. :) It's really cool how it works.

We dump all our old car batteries there too because the indigenous people are impervious to lead poisoning. They dismantle the car batteries and sell the parts for money.

Interestingly, the company I work for moved most of their manufacturing to Mexico about the same time JBL was busy effing up their legacy. Unlike JBL, the company I work for wasn't able to entirely abandon the old plant in the U.S. because it's a toxic waste dump and they would then have to clean it up as per the EPA. See, in this country we have laws that protect people because skankwad business people would kill everything and everyone around them if given half a chance to make a buck off it. Some business people quite simply don't know how to properly behave and that's why we have regulations here. They can get away with alot more shit in other countries; For now...

There will be a day of reckoning. Too bad their progeny will most likely be the ones who suffer.


The 2204s went to the dump because they were in need of reconing and to get them reconed with factory parts would cost more than what I could find original used 2204s for. I mean I couldn't give them away because the motors were so heavy to ship.I had the same problem so I ripped the brand new C8R2204 kits out and put C8R121 kits in rather than throw the cores away. Those cores are excellent for making 2202H's (4350/55 restores) and 121H's (4315 replacement drivers with ports blocked), or "K120H's" as edgewound pointed out.
I know the aftermarket isn't as good as OEM...but I wonder exactly how bad it is.Don't really care since it's the combination of the hardware and software that makes a JBL transducer.

If you put an aftermarket kit into a JBL core please rip the foilcal off the back so no one mistakes it for a real JBL.

[edgewound]

Well if I had listened to my heart when I built this car, I would have gone straight to the 2118s off of the bat. But I was trying to find some of that secret sauce that I love with the JBLs elsewhere...and while somethings were nice and good, it just wasn't the same. And yeah the 2118s aren't spring chickens in their own right, but I doubt they would be going anywhere for a very very long time. If I could get just a little more lowend from them, it would be the perfect speaker for a car IMO.

And yeah, I kick myself everyday for sending those guys to their deaths. I didn't realize then one of the beauties of JBL cone drivers- that you could have several different drivers using the same basket/motor. And maybe that is what I need now...some frankenstein speaker.

Anyways, edgewound, be looking for a PM from me asking for some help. I know like 3 JBL models that I like and maybe you could find me something more better.

2118 for car would benefit from a weather treatment because of the thin cone. The ever-changing car environment is pretty brutal on paper cone drivers.

I'll help you however I can..and if you find dead, undamaged JBL Pro baskets/cores, there is bound to be a home for them somewhere other than a dumpster.;)

[iso]

This discussion about quality of aftermarket recone kits has been interesting. Their drive units have been probably best you can buy, even their crossover design and ability to make properly damped cabinets has been 10 to 20 years behind best loudspeaker manufacturers in England.

One thing about JBL drive units has puzzled be for quite long time. I have measured DCR:s of several LE5 and LE25 units. DCR values seems to differ most often 10-15%. DCR:s of Kef drive units of same vintage do differ considerably less, but inductance figures of Kef units seems to vary often more than 100%... I measured few days ago 5 LE5:s and their inductance figures were quite close to ea other... 0,23 - 0,42 mH.

I have been adviced that measuring inductance of non moving VC is not proper way to check inductance. This is probably true, as I have not noticed any ill effects when using T52 tweeters with 0,26mH and 0,50mH in my Cantatas.

This brings me to my actual question... How it is possible to wind voice coils with so different DCR:s. I suppose that in 70´s most respected manufacturers of drive units used automatic VC winding machines. It is reasonable to expect that correct number of turns were wound on VC formers. If so... only reasonable explanation for this situation will be that wire or ribbon used for VC:s was not consistent in dia... or material used for VC:s was not consistent...

Does anybody have any information about this issue and are more recent OEM and Aftermarket recone kits any better on this respect?

Best Regards

Kimmo

[Lee in Montreal]

I purchased four 2226 woofers, with two needing recones. My first choice of recone kit would be some New Old Stock (not some new "Hecho in Mexico" with the "Made in America" price tag). Mackenzie cone kits are damn tempting at $72 a pop, all pre-assembled. I sent them a question about if they have Thiele/Small data of their recone kits compared with original cones. Will I get a reply? I doubt it. But it will probably not keep me for spending moiney on at least a pair of recone kits for the sake of testing and measuring.

$200+ for a recone kit from JBL makes no sense to me for such basic parts.

Lee

[1audiohack]

After almost two years I think it's up to you to take the plunge and let us know. ;)

[ivica]

I purchased four 2226 woofers, with two needing recones. My first choice of recone kit would be some New Old Stock (not some new "Hecho in Mexico" with the "Made in America" price tag). Mackenzie cone kits are damn tempting at $72 a pop, all pre-assembled. I sent them a question about if they have Thiele/Small data of their recone kits compared with original cones. Will I get a reply? I doubt it. But it will probably not keep me for spending moiney on at least a pair of recone kits for the sake of testing and measuring.

$200+ for a recone kit from JBL makes no sense to me for such basic parts.

Lee

Hello Lee in Montreal,

I do not want to discourage your trial to recone 2226 with some AF kits, but here you can read about mine experience with MAcKenzie kits for 2202:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?31943-K120-re-coned-with-McKenzie-kits&p=325100&viewfull=1#post325100

You have to pay your attention on the VC wire, as in 2226 original VC is aluminum wire, what is not AF usual solution.
About the cone material I have no information, but may be some skillful forum member can help, or give good suggestion.

If VC in yours 2226 are not broken, may be you can change the cones "ONLY". Good luck.

Regards
Ivica

[Lee in Montreal]

Well. I just purchased two 2226 kits. I will be able to physically compare the Mckenzie and JBL components. At $72 per kit, I have nothing to loose. In the worst case scenario, I might even end up richer in experience... ;-)

[Lee in Montreal]

http://reconekits.com/jbl2226reconekit.aspx "This recone kit is made with original cone and spider the voice coil is edge wound high temp. Aluminum on fiberglass forms. This kit will restore your Jbl 2226 to original quality." http://reconekits.com/images/products/detail/DSC_0048.1.JPG

[ivica]

http://reconekits.com/jbl2226reconekit.aspx "This recone kit is made with original cone and spider the voice coil is edge wound high temp. Aluminum on fiberglass forms. This kit will restore your Jbl 2226 to original ality." http://reconekits.com/images/products/detail/DSC_0048.1.JPG

This is GOOD news, aluminum edge wire Voice coil.....

As I have no good experience about the VC position, You have to carefully measure, but unfortunate almost impossible to correct if not in the middle of the magnetic field .

Regards
Ivica

[ivica]

Well. I just purchased two 2226 kits. I will be able to physically compare the Mckenzie and JBL components. At $72 per kit, I have nothing to loose. In the worst case scenario, I might even end up richer in experience... ;-)

Hi Lee,

Any news and experience with McKenzies 2226 recone kits? I have two 2226 frames to be re-coned, so your experience would be well-come.

Regards
Ivica

[Lee in Montreal]

Hi Ivica

The kits only shipped two days ago. ;)

PS I contacted Mckenzie a week ago in regard of getting the new T/S specs with their cones installed. It took 5 days to get a reply (actually an hour after I placed my order) and the info was exactly the same as from JBL's litterature. I replied by mentionning the specs seemed to be from JBL's book, and enquired if they had any measurement/calculation with THEIR cones installed. I never received a reply.

What I don't understand is why recone companies don't spend a few hours measuring a stock JBL cone, pick components with the exact same specs, build kits and advertize them with T/S specs. It wouldn't be too difficult. Even a mildly equiped amateur could measure the spiders and cone suspension elasticity, weight, strength. Measure the coils and find similar components from many manufacturers. I think that humans are overall too lazy and/or too dumb. ;-)

[gferrell]

YEP!

[ivica]

Hi Ivica

The kits only shipped two days ago. ;)

PS I contacted Mckenzie a week ago in regard of getting the new T/S specs with their cones installed. It took 5 days to get a reply (actually an hour after I placed my order) and the info was exactly the same as from JBL's literature. I replied by mentioning the specs seemed to be from JBL's book, and enquired if they had any measurement/calculation with THEIR cones installed. I never received a reply.

What I don't understand is why recone companies don't spend a few hours measuring a stock JBL cone, pick components with the exact same specs, build kits and advertize them with T/S specs. It wouldn't be too difficult. Even a mildly equipped amateur could measure the spiders and cone suspension elasticity, weight, strength. Measure the coils and find similar components from many manufacturers. I think that humans are overall too lazy and/or too dumb. ;-)

Hi Lee,

Almost the same experience years ago I had with 2202 kits, and that is the reason I have asked You, as You have now two kits for 2226 at home, so I believe that You can do some measurements and show us the results. Looking from the photos (Mckenzie have put in their advertizement) the kit is looking good, but out-look is one thing, and the "whole story" is another thing.
Anxiously waiting for your measurement,

Regrads
Ivica

[4313B]

JBL is recommending http://mwaspeakerparts.com/

[ivica]

JBL is recommending http://mwaspeakerparts.com/

Hi 4313B,

Thanks for the suggestion about MWA. I have quite good relations with MWA, but , as can be seen from their catalog, they are offering 4-inch (JBL compatible size) VC-edge wound with copper wire, not aluminum, as 2226 original VC is, so its weight would more ( I guess about 20gr more then aluminum). May be for lager amount something can be arranged, but for couple of pieces , I am not sure. Their cones, spiders, suspensions seems OK for not too heavy use, and VC-s are very,very good too.

Regards
ivica

[Lee in Montreal]

I am curious as why JBL would recommend an aftermarket supplier such as MWA. Any reason for recommending an aftermarket source? And any reason to pick them over any other aftermarket parts supplier? Just curious.

TIA

Lee

[ivica]

I am curious as why JBL would recommend an aftermarket supplier such as MWA. Any reason for recommending an aftermarket source? And any reason to pick them over any other aftermarket parts supplier? Just curious.

TIA

Lee

Hi Lee,

I can only guess, that for some (old....) drivers that are not supported now, it would be good suggestion (as a hand of 'salvage') what to do from 'internal or external sources'. The worse thing would be to say to the faithful customer that "there is no help" (Discontinued, Not Available any More.....etc)

Regards
ivica

[4313B]

I have quite good relations with MWA, but , as can be seen from their catalog, they are offering 4-inch (JBL compatible size) VC-edge wound with copper wire, not aluminum, as 2226 original VC is, so its weight would more ( I guess about 20gr more then aluminum). May be for lager amount something can be arranged, but for couple of pieces , I am not sure. Their cones, spiders, suspensions seems OK for not too heavy use, and VC-s are very,very good too.Well, I think that is going to be an ongoing problem. I don't think there is alot of money in making so many different "specialized" kits like JBL had. I guess we'll see what shakes out.


I can only guess, that for some (old....) drivers that are not supported now, it would be good suggestion (as a hand of 'salvage') what to do from 'internal or external sources'. The worse thing would be to say to the faithful customer that "there is no help" (Discontinued...etc)I think that sums it up, plus they are a bit more local to JBL.

The bottom line though is whether or not there is any money in it. Obviously the transducer types that are heavily subjected to use are going to get more attention. Consumer systems could be the biggest problem because of the "tight" passive filters G.T. and friends create. An off spec recone kit could jack the whole system up.

With respect to the pricing of recone kits from JBL, even people at JBL were concluding that prices were getting out of hand.

I see that 3-inch Be diaphragm has gone up a few hundred bucks... $972.00 D8R2435 And that isn't the aquaplased version that goes in the 435Be.

Oh well, times change...

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Transducers Parts List/Transducer Parts List.pdf

[ivica]

Well, I think that is going to be an ongoing problem. I don't think there is alot of money in making so many different "specialized" kits like JBL had. I guess we'll see what shakes out.

............... Consumer systems could be the biggest problem because of the "tight" passive filters G.T. and friends create. An off spec recone kit could jack the whole system up.

I agree, with You, as I have sent to the forum my measurements :

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?31943-K120-re-coned-with-McKenzie-kits&p=325100&viewfull=1#post325100

with JBL 2202 ( C8R2202 ) and MacKenzie 2202 kits applied to the same basket. It can be easily visible that at over 2kHz they have quite different behaviors.

Regards
Ivica

[4313B]

I agree, with You, as I have sent to the forum my measurements :

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?31943-K120-re-coned-with-McKenzie-kits&p=325100&viewfull=1#post325100

with JBL 2202 ( C8R2202 ) and MacKenzie 2202 kits applied to the same basket. It can be easily visible that at over 2kHz they have quite different behaviors.

Regards
IvicaAnd I have no idea what the thought process is with respect to aftermarket parts and their creators. Are they trying to consolidate parts? Are they trying to build a better mousetrap? Are they incapable of building an exact replacement? Do they even think that deep? I just don't know.

[ivica]

And I have no idea what the thought process is with respect to aftermarket parts and their creators. Are they trying to consolidate parts? Are they trying to build a better mousetrap? Are they incapable of building an exact replacement? Do they even think that deep? I just don't know.

I believe the only importance is :at the first glance "to MIMIC" anything else is of 'less importance'.

Regards
ivica

[zeljkor]

I would like to add "to MIMIC" with the lowest possible price :(


I believe the only importance is :at the first glance "to MIMIC" anything else is of 'less importance'.

Regards
ivica

[Lee in Montreal]

I would like to add "to MIMIC" with the lowest possible price :( Price id not a concern in the case of, say, a 2225 or 2226 recone kit. It costs the same price to get correct components. Pretty sure it cost under $20.00 for parts to make a recone kit.

[ivica]

Price id not a concern in the case of, say, a 2225 or 2226 recone kit. It costs the same price to get correct components. Pretty sure it cost under $20.00 for parts to make a recone kit.

Anyhow your experience with the 2226 Mackenzie kits would be 'reference experience' for the most of us.
Waiting for more technical info,
Regards
ivica

[Ear4life]

Hello.

I tried the Mackenzie 2226H recone kit last year. All I can say is that they delivers the performance!! I´m using them in some Altec horns, powered by my 4 watt OTL amp. Great attack! :D

Regards
Martin

[colofan]

How about a kit from these guys :

http://www.simplyspeakers.com/jbl-recone-kit-aftermarket-jbl-2245H-RK-JBL2245-8.html

I am looking for only matching the low frequency range (below 100 Hz). Should I take the risk?

[mech986]

Lee, did you ever get those kits, measured or installed?

[Lee in Montreal]

Lee, did you ever get those kits, measured or installed?

Received. Installed. And tested for a couple of years. Not measured.

[300_Summit]

Received. Installed. And tested for a couple of years. Not measured.


How do they compare to the JBL kits?

[Wagner]

Were an OES supplier of goods to EV for a period, definitely some of their best (and rarest, foam surrond) pro 12"s so they must know something

[Ruediger]

From their homepage:

McKenzie guarantees all its replacement kits to be accurate to the original manufacturers’ specifications and come with full replacement warranty.

They should specify the TS params and a few others with tolerances (+/-), as well as SPL and impedance vs. freuency.

Ruediger

[ivica]

From their homepage:

McKenzie guarantees all its replacement kits to be accurate to the original manufacturers’ specifications and come with full replacement warranty.

They should specify the TS params and a few others with tolerances (+/-), as well as SPL and impedance vs. freuency.

Ruediger

Hi,

If talking about JBL 2202 recone, I have to confirm that their kit is fare, fare, fare ...,away from JBL , looking at tha cone, and the measurements confirm that.

Regards ivica

[Wagner]

You know what? A LOT has changed these past 5 years!

It really doesn't make a sh&t

You can't get the vast majority of the kits one might need from JBL, for JBL transducers anymore and it's only going to get worse until it's not at all; we all know that....................so it is irrelevant

GAMES OVER!

I mean it's like, if you had TWO to choose between or if it were a two choice proposition (both readily available) and it was a budgetary matter I MAYBE could see it...................but with today's reality?

Unless you've got a month to scrounge around for some of them and then pay more for it than the driver cost new................what's the choice other than use the best of what's out there?

The only thing that bothers me sometimes about MacKenzie, or is it McKenzie is just that, look CLOSELY:
http://reconekits.com/about-us.aspx

Quality of construction, yes and I will always prefer a JBL genuine part simply because it USED to be a known quantity.

But I will also point this out, I have two 123A-3s only a few hundred digits apart and the two FACTORY cones appear entirely different as for texture/appearance (and some other minute details) and I would bet my left nut that one is going to weigh easily more than the other, possibly by as much as >5% (the adhesive dispenser was obviously functioning differently between the two as well)

I can SEE with the unaided eye that the Aquaplas on one is substantially thicker than the other, and I mean by no small margin; if I had been buying these back in '75 I would have asked to see another box, that's how obvious it is. Not ugly, the woofers look new, just look as if they were from two different factories, suppliers or production runs is all.....................

These woofers are unmolested originals

Yeah, in a perfect world you want it to be what the technical sheet says it should be (better that, what the engineer who designed the driver says it should be)

Best that could ever be had over run after run was pretty close

It's not worth worrying too much today about something you can't do a damn thing about

And back to the original question posed 5 years ago, no, I have nothing bad to say about MacKenzie speaker parts; everyone I have used was of good quality.

As good (well built/over built) as original JBL parts used to be? No, unless they have improved, I have not used any in 4 or 5 years

[Ian Mackenzie]

I wonder what the ratio of reform to recones is?

I mean foam rot is a much easier fix and the surround has much less impact on the T/L than the spider.

Reforms were once cursed but for those instances it might be better way to go.

I had an original 2245 re foamed by a pro speaker repairer who re builds drivers (not a hack) and he said the original cone was fine.

I think it's smart to talk to the trad people who are experienced in the actual repair work about what your driver needs as opposed to ripping out an original cone that only needs a refoam.

I understand that VC can also be replaced on an original cone by a skilled technician.

Whether this spies to all drivers requires clarity.

I think it pays to listen to Edgewound before you jump.

Let the repair guy fix your driver.

[Wagner]

I wonder what the ratio of reform to recones is?

I mean foam rot is a much easier fix and the surround has much less impact on the T/L than the spider.

Reforms were once cursed but for those instances it might be better way to go.

I had an original 2245 re foamed by a pro speaker repairer who re builds drivers (not a hack) and he said the original cone was fine.

I think it's smart to talk to the trad people who are experienced in the actual repair work about what your driver needs as opposed to ripping out an original cone that only needs a refoam.

I understand that VC can also be replaced on an original cone by a skilled technician.

Whether this spies to all drivers requires clarity.

I think it pays to listen to Edgewound before you jump.

Let the repair guy fix your driver.
Agreed, having a vetted professional such as Edgewound perform repairs is more important today than ever and is money well spent, especially if maintaining/restoring as closely as possible the integrity of the original design is the penultimate goal

That being said, if a re-cone kit is one's ONLY option, OR if a person is going to (insist) on doing this work themselves then it is truly a matter of "it is what it is"

Your comments are true; someone who knows what they are doing can work wonders saving/restoring old parts from bits and pieces AND the quality of after market parts can vary wildly, voice coil quality being the most critical variable..............my remarks apply to the specifics of a case- by-case basis only

[Ian Mackenzie]

Its a bit like putting on new car tires yourself.

No one in their right mind does it (i hope).

However, many years ago I took a GF on a road trip in a work car and both rear tires blow within 50 km of each other 400 miles from home.

Yep the low down scumbag boss put re treads on. Total looser!

I must say I have had better luck with new hire cars in the USA, not one freakin issue down the Mississippi and did not hit any natives neither.

(If you are so inclined http://www.doeseatplace.com/ does the best steaks on the planet! there's only one size 2 lbs!)

Assuming its only a foam surround what is $150 bucks to have it done by a pro over a 5 year life span?

I had a dud 2214 from E bay that had a locked pole.

Boy was I pissed.

I took it to my regular guy and he said it would need to be re built and the magnet re gaussed.

$400 buck later ooch and it cost more then the dud 2214 but it will last for years to come.

[Wagner]

Its a bit like putting on new car tires yourself.

No one in their right mind does it (i hope).
I'd look for another analogy, unless you don't mind insulting truly professional journeyman speaker repairmen

If you are capable of operating a mechanical can opener and possess a normal amount of physical strength, an IQ of at least 80 points and a back in reasonably decent working order you can mount and balance tyres and do so quite successfully

We'd pull kids in off the street and make them tyre busters, takes about 30 minutes to confer upon them the basics

[1audiohack]

You know what? A LOT has changed these past 5 years!

It really doesn't make a sh&t

You can't get the vast majority of the kits one might need from JBL, for JBL transducers anymore and it's only going to get worse until it's not at all; we all know that....................so it is irrelevant
.
.
.


Quality of construction, yes and I will always prefer a JBL genuine part simply because it USED to be a known quantity.

But I will also point this out, I have two 123A-3s only a few hundred digits apart and the two FACTORY cones appear entirely different as for texture/appearance (and some other minute details) and I would bet my left nut that one is going to weigh easily more than the other, possibly by as much as >5% (the adhesive dispenser was obviously functioning differently between the two as well)

I can SEE with the unaided eye that the Aquaplas on one is substantially thicker than the other, and I mean by no small margin; if I had been buying these back in '75 I would have asked to see another box, that's how obvious it is. Not ugly, the woofers look new, just look as if they were from two different factories, suppliers or production runs is all.......

Well they are pretty much hand built.

As for the JBL kit quality, it still seems fine to me. This month I have built four 2234's, eight 2220's and six 2121's. All kits made in 2015 or 2016, all coils consistant to 0.2 Ohm variations and the FS on the 2234's are spot on.

On the foam front, the 2234's in the 4435's in my office were made in 06/1986 and one of the surrounds finally cracked last year. 30 years is pretty good service.

Barry.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Thomas your up posting when you should be asleep or a pita with your kin,

I think you read things different to the norm.

Criptic comes to mind.

Have you heard of the spare in the trunk?
Have you watched a tyre being changed?
Have you watched a pro reconer strip out a cone?

No you haven't fuck nut have you.

The process is in many ways identical to changing a tyre.

The skill is in finding the leak(s) and determing the correct approach to repairing or replacing the tyre.


The process is messy, it's awkward and l sincerely doubt you would get it right as there are all sorts of tricks to the trade in getting it done correctly.

Please do us all a favour and Don't disagree with Big People because you think you can!

You remind me of a 4 year old sometimes. Ask permission first and be polite.

[Wagner]

Thomas your up posting when you should be asleep or a pita with your kin,

I think you read things different to the norm.

Criptic comes to mind.

Have you heard of the spare in the trunk?
Have you watched a tyre being changed?
Have you watched a pro reconer strip out a cone?

No you haven't fuck nut have you.

The process is in many ways identical to changing a tyre.

The skill is in finding the leak(s) and determing the correct approach to repairing or replacing the tyre.


The process is messy, it's awkward and l sincerely doubt you would get it right as there are all sorts of tricks to the trade in getting it done correctly.

Please do us all a favour and Don't disagree with Big People because you think you can!

You remind me of a 4 year old sometimes. Ask permission first and be polite.
No need for the profanity and degenerate "jokes" (innuendo) It's bad form

I also fear it just may be you who is reading "cryptic" meanings into otherwise benign posts, opinions and comments

You know absolutely nothing about me friend, so knock it off with the arrogance (and the weird ass PMs as well) I would ask you to please refrain

"Process" being identical "in many ways" isn't what you initially said, the first mention of it was what I was speaking to, not whatever random mess that's rattling around in your head now with this glorious tirade and adventure in name calling:

Its a bit like putting on new car tires yourself.
No one in their right mind does it (i hope).
However, many years ago I took a GF on a road trip in a work car and both rear tires blow within 50 km of each other 400 miles from home.
Yep the low down scumbag boss put re treads on. Total looser!
:blink:

"Have you heard of the spare in the trunk?" - Yes, both the "space saver" emergency and full size road wheel types, very familiar with both (I was there when the "space saver" "emergency/temporary" types were born)

"Have you watched a tyre being changed?" - Yes, many many times as well as having changed hundreds, maybe even thousands myself in my working lifetime

"Have you watched a pro reconer strip out a cone?" - Yes, on more than a few occasions as well as having done more than a few dozen dozens of them myself successfully, for me and for others

That is how I absolutely know for a fact that there is no similarities between the two "skills", "hands on" except for the fact that both involve round, compromised objects (and maybe some glue, but even that's a stretch)

As for this?:

The skill is in finding the leak(s) and determing the correct approach to repairing or replacing the tyre.
Don't know how much real "skill" is required to pull a road wheel and tyre assembly off a vehicle and dunk it in a leak check tub, that or spray it while it's still on the car with a little soapy water: like I said, bit of an insult to the speaker repair tradesmen

This is the only tool they absolutely need if nothing else (tyre busters), this, at least one working eyeball and wear bars, the spray bottle may be employed by the advanced, self-assured and cocky "uptown" guys. And of course some patches or plugs and the appropriate glue to effect the indicated repair:

http://www.laroke.com/larryk4674/2011/ds100111a.JPG

Wound diagnostics, now that's for the advanced tyre "tech" and will require at least another 30 minutes of advanced training; one would need to recommend replacement for this example or any wound to the sidewall for that matter. Tough stuff to master:

http://www.carfab.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/car-tyre-3.jpg

That is why I cannot appreciate your analogy and said what I said, sorry "Ian", it wasn't an attack on you personally and you are incorrect in your thinking to take it as such

I was and am an Master Automobile Technician (certified, you can look it up on-line as well as all of my manufacturer specific credentials and my Kalifornia Smog Test and Repair License): for 40 plus years

Busting tyres doesn't have a thing in common with re-coning a speaker, other than some speakers are round like road wheels and a "lazy Susan" of sorts may be involved depending on your tyre machine

That, and both operations involve the removal of a spent bit and it's replacement with a new bit; that's about where the similarities end

Then again, from the sound of it, maybe you'd take your shoes to the cobbler for new laces, eh?

Your analogy is an exceedingly poor one as for the implication of the skills required and need of a "professional" for one as compared to the other: speakers, yes, tyres not so much

Why, I think that I could teach even you to bust tyres successfully, in a matter of minutes, right after I show you how to avail yourself of the benefits and operation of "spell check"

And yes, it is often difficult to understand your weird ass English and what attempts to be sentence structure and grammar so forgive me if I have a difficult time following along with your insults and all knowing perspectives

If you interpret my posts with the same degree of lack of clarity as I have struggled with in deciphering some of yours, then it is no small wonder why you are having such a problem with my meaning. I know I have had quite the difficult time understanding some of yours.

My apologies for this unfortunate misunderstanding and set of circumstances

As I wrote; if you can operate a mechanical can opener and have an IQ of at least 80 points, I can teach you how to use a tyre machine (well) in about 30 minutes

Not so certain, in fact I know I cannot say the same as for all of the nuances, idiosyncrasies and techniques required to successfully and professionally repair and service many of the transducers we deal with, and love, everyday (which at times can come close to being an art form)

To compare that skill set to tyre busting is an insult

[mech986]

I had a dud 2214 from E bay that had a locked pole.

Boy was I pissed.

I took it to my regular guy and he said it would need to be re built and the magnet re gaussed.

$400 buck later ooch and it cost more then the dud 2214 but it will last for years to come.

Ian, was the problem a shifted magnet, pole plate, or center pole piece, or a bad voice coil. I've got a similar 2214H locked up (bought that way) and will need to get it looked at, likely I'll be calling Ken.

[Eaulive]

How do they compare to the JBL kits?
Yes Lee, how do they compare... did you had the chance to hear them both?

It would have been nice to take pictures and measurements (mechanical that is) of the cone before installing :-)

[Lee in Montreal]

I started that thread 5 and half years ago. Now, allow me to continue the discussion with a "comparative test" I found on the internet. This is only one source. Maybe somebody has another. BTW My McKenzie recones are 5 years old and still keep on pumping some great bass. ;-)

BTW I have some 2226 Mckenzie recones and for 25% the price of the JBL unit, I get 95% of the quality. As my system is active, if I lose a tiny bit of sound output, I don't mind too much as I only have to raise the attenuators on the amps, or increase output on the digital crossover.

http://diygeezer.com/aftermarket-recone-kit-review/

Lee

[audiomagnate]

Great stuff. It's interesting how a very significant difference in the impedance plot doesn't correlate to the frequency response curve.

[Ed Zeppeli]

Thanks Lee. Interesting article and comments section too.


Warren

[Lee in Montreal]

I have been on the idle for my next purchase at McKenzie for some 2245 recone kits. I was waiting to find some technical comparaison and it seems that for most of us, they are "good enough". I have two empty baskets already cleaned up, and two more with JBL cones. And another in duty at the moment.

I want to ditch the 2226 in my two system and replace them with a pair of 2245, well understanding the limitations of the 2245 heavy cone beyond 300Hz

http://reconekits.com/jbl2245h8ohmreconekit.aspx

Lee

[gasfan]

It should be pointed out that the remainder of drivers in a system may not necessarily have McKenzie kits that differ to the same degree.

[Lee in Montreal]

It should be pointed out that the remainder of drivers in a system may not necessarily have McKenzie kits that differ to the same degree.

True. And this is what was explained in the test. People running active won't mind 1db difference. In my case I have a stack of power amps and a digital crossover. Therefore, I don't mind if my 2445 compressoer are at least 18db more efficient. I just correct the difference in the crossover. Same applies with the woofers.

[gasfan]

True. And this is what was explained in the test. People running active won't mind 1db difference. In my case I have a stack of power amps and a digital crossover. Therefore, I don't mind if my 2445 compressoer are at least 18db more efficient. I just correct the difference in the crossover. Same applies with the woofers.

Right, I didn't miss that. I was referring to the advice to recone an entire passive system. It may turn out that one anomaly is still preferable to possibly skewing the whole system.

[1audiohack]

Probably not an issue in a domestic setting but most of the failures I see with non JBL kits are 10-15 rounds of the bottom of the voice coil loose and in the bottom of the motor.

Also that real high Z at resonance as compared to all the other drivers is odd. It would be intersting to observe the "geezer" test speaker with a strobe light. I can usually tell of a coil or spider or some part of the suspension is disconnected or a diaphragm is broken via a high impeadance peak. Something isn't peachy.

Barry.

[dprice]

I have been on the idle for my next purchase at McKenzie for some 2245 recone kits. I was waiting to find some technical comparaison and it seems that for most of us, they are "good enough". I have two empty baskets already cleaned up, and two more with JBL cones. And another in duty at the moment.

I want to ditch the 2226 in my two system and replace them with a pair of 2245, well understanding the limitations of the 2245 heavy cone beyond 300Hz

http://reconekits.com/jbl2245h8ohmreconekit.aspx

Lee

I used one of the 2245 kits from mackenzie for the sub I built for my brother about two years ago. It did not have the aquaplas on the cone and did not appear to weigh enough to meet the JBL moving-mass spec for the 2245. I expected this from what I had read in this thread so I simply painted duratex (hillbilly aquaplas?) on to the rear of the cone and kept weighing it until I got it in the ball park. Cosmetically it is a dead ringer for my JBL 2245 in the B460. I was using a blown 2240 driver so I didn't have an old 2245 cone to use as a reference for the weight. Obviously a real JBL kit is (was?) the way to go but it wasn't in the budget for this build. Two years later the low-budget recone is working fine.

Don

[edgewound]

I know of a place that is doing a pretty good job of reproducing JBL recone kits that are no longer manufactured by JBL, and I just received a report from a caller that the facility south of the border is not living up to the legacy quality that the brand has been known for.

My kits seem to be being well received by users on a few different continents...and for that I am truly honored.

Some key ingredients are missing from aftermarket recone kits that make JBL perform they way they do. Details matter. If you don't pay attention to the details, the sound will clearly reveal it.

Shameless plug. Please forgive me.

[Ed Zeppeli]

I know of a place that is doing a pretty good job of reproducing JBL recone kits that are no longer manufactured by JBL, and I just received a report from a caller that the facility south of the border is not living up to the legacy quality that the brand has been known for.

My kits seem to be being well received by users on a few different continents...and for that I am truly honored.

Some key ingredients are missing from aftermarket recone kits that make JBL perform they way they do. Details matter. If you don't pay attention to the details, the sound will clearly reveal it.

Shameless plug. Please forgive me.

Plug away! It's not like you're some fly-by-night dude.


Warren

[mech986]

I know of a place that is doing a pretty good job of reproducing JBL recone kits that are no longer manufactured by JBL, and I just received a report from a caller that the facility south of the border is not living up to the legacy quality that the brand has been known for.

My kits seem to be being well received by users on a few different continents...and for that I am truly honored.

Some key ingredients are missing from aftermarket recone kits that make JBL perform they way they do. Details matter. If you don't pay attention to the details, the sound will clearly reveal it.

Shameless plug. Please forgive me.

Hey Ken, don't be modest. Someone has to have the guts and wherewithal to keep doing good work. Haven't been up your way now for a couple of years since I retired, but hope you're doing well. I assume you're doing your work out of a streamlined work area now? Hope work is still coming your way.

Regards,

Bart

[Lee in Montreal]

I know of a place that is doing a pretty good job of reproducing JBL recone kits that are no longer manufactured by JBL, and I just received a report from a caller that the facility south of the border is not living up to the legacy quality that the brand has been known for.

My kits seem to be being well received by users on a few different continents...and for that I am truly honored.

Some key ingredients are missing from aftermarket recone kits that make JBL perform they way they do. Details matter. If you don't pay attention to the details, the sound will clearly reveal it.

Shameless plug. Please forgive me.

You are 100% correct when mentioning that a repro will never be the exact same thing as the original. At least the way the original used to be built. Would I use a repro 2245 (per exemple) in the exact same configuration as originally, certainly not. But, I would see no problem using such recone for a sub with a limited pass band or for test projects where $80.00usd makes more sense to me than $300.00usd... Sound might be different (maybe more or less upward extension, different sensitivity), but hey, sub has its own amp, and DQX are there for a reason ;-)

Mackenzie is just another option that seems to "work".

[300_Summit]

I can't speak for McKenzie kits, but I have a set of 2235s that are all MWA parts. Actually they are 2234s because I didn't want the mass ring. I use them in my L300s. I wanted to compare the sound to the OEM woofers that I have (136a reconed with JBL 2235h kits). I must say, they sound pretty much the same, except for the fact that now, I no longer have the mass ring kissing the back plate when I get a little over zealous with the volume :D

[Mr. Widget]

I can't speak for McKenzie kits, but I have a set of 2235s that are all MWA parts. Actually they are 2234s because I didn't want the mass ring. I use them in my L300s. I wanted to compare the sound to the OEM woofers that I have (136a reconed with JBL 2235h kits). I must say, they sound pretty much the same, except for the fact that now, I no longer have the mass ring kissing the back plate when I get a little over zealous with the volume :DWithout the mass ring they shouldn't "sound pretty much the same". There should be more mid band coming from the woofers.


Widget

[300_Summit]

Without the mass ring they shouldn't "sound pretty much the same". There should be more mid band coming from the woofers.


Widget

I do have my system going through a parametric EQ. If I were running it without any type of tone controls, I'm sure the "more mid band" would be obvious to my ears. My point, IMHO, the MWA cone kits sound pretty damn good vs the OEM. Now, I've only had them for 6 months or so, only time will tell whether they're as durable as the OEM. As I stated before, I'm just so tickled not to hear that God awful sound of the mass ring kissing the backplate......maybe I should do more critical listening :D

[Mr. Widget]

I'm just so tickled not to hear that God awful sound of the mass ring kissing the backplate......maybe I should do more critical listening :DAnd maybe turn it down a bit? :bouncy:

Actually in in all seriousness, if you are boosting the VLF you might be pushing the speakers harder than you think. I too have heard the slapping of 2235H mass rings against the top plate, but in my experience the output is quite significant.


Widget

[edgewound]

I do have my system going through a parametric EQ. If I were running it without any type of tone controls, I'm sure the "more mid band" would be obvious to my ears. My point, IMHO, the MWA cone kits sound pretty damn good vs the OEM. Now, I've only had them for 6 months or so, only time will tell whether they're as durable as the OEM. As I stated before, I'm just so tickled not to hear that God awful sound of the mass ring kissing the backplate......maybe I should do more critical listening :D

There is a way to keep the moving mass of a 2235H style kit...or for that matter, a genuine JBL 2235H...and eliminate the smackage of the mass ring.

[edgewound]

You are 100% correct when mentioning that a repro will never be the exact same thing as the original. At least the way the original used to be built. Would I use a repro 2245 (per exemple) in the exact same configuration as originally, certainly not. But, I would see no problem using such recone for a sub with a limited pass band or for test projects where $80.00usd makes more sense to me than $300.00usd... Sound might be different (maybe more or less upward extension, different sensitivity), but hey, sub has its own amp, and DQX are there for a reason ;-)

Mackenzie is just another option that seems to "work".

I totally understand the concept of saving money to make a speaker "work". The part that really angers and frustrates the hell out of me is when the seller claims that the recone kit is "just as good as" or "the same as" the factory version or a faithful reproduction and sells the item to an unsuspecting buyer who thinks he/she is buying the OEM equivalent...when they clearly are being lied to. I think this practice is actually illegal without a disclaimer. A 2245H kit...or any other kit, for that matter...cannot possibly perform the same as or even close to OEM JBL without having Aquaplas applied to the cone in an amount that closely matches the engineering standard. Of course, this is for models that were originally produced with Aquaplas.

What you have is an 18" woofer with a 4" edgewound, 8 ohm voice coil, and a cast aluminum frame. What you cannot call it is a JBL 2245H...because it is incomplete. Making it complete takes time and effort.

That said...I'm glad you're satisfied with the results for the amount spent. That's an objective "value" call.:)

[ivica]

I totally understand the concept of saving money to make a speaker "work". The part that really angers and frustrates the hell out of me is when the seller claims that the recone kit is "just as good as" or "the same as" the factory version or a faithful reproduction and sells the item to an unsuspecting buyer who thinks he/she is buying the OEM equivalent...when they clearly are being lied to. I think this practice is actually illegal without a disclaimer. A 2245H kit...or any other kit, for that matter...cannot possibly perform the same as or even close to OEM JBL without having Aquaplas applied to the cone in an amount that closely matches the engineering standard. Of course, this is for models that were originally produced with Aquaplas.

What you have is an 18" woofer with a 4" edgewound, 8 ohm voice coil, and a cast aluminum frame. What you cannot call it is a JBL 2245H...because it is incomplete. Making it complete takes time and effort.

That said...I'm glad you're satisfied with the results for the amount spent. That's an objective "value" call.:)

Hi edgewound,

I have to agree with You. especially with 2245. I have experience that even the latest JBL 2245 recone kit is fare to be 'sounding' as the original JBL 2245, from the 'golden years 2245'.
I think that 2242 or 2226 recone kits non JBL would be more JBL "look a like".

If talking about the drivers parts I have very good experience with MWA parts, but some of their cones has to be 'aquaplas-ed' in order to come near the old JBL sound.

regards
ivica

[edgewound]

Hi edgewound,

I have to agree with You. especially with 2245. I have experience that even the latest JBL 2245 recone kit is fare to be 'sounding' as the original JBL 2245, from the 'golden years 2245'.
I think that 2242 or 2226 recone kits non JBL would be more JBL "look a like".

If talking about the drivers parts I have very good experience with MWA parts, but some of their cones has to be 'aquaplas-ed' in order to come near the old JBL sound.

regards
ivica

Right ivica,

Many of the base parts for JBL drivers are very good. It's what one does with those parts to closely replicate how it behaves when installed in a JBL core.;)

[ompdiburi]

For anyone interested, received two kits this week, first thing I noticed is the external cloth surround is glued on the front of the cone, took a couple of measurements on the dimension of voice coil and look similar. Once I will be back home next week I will compare to the original NOS C8RLE15B I have and give more details. Anyone have experience with sound speaker repair kits?

Giuliano

[Rudy Kleimann]

Probably not an issue in a domestic setting but most of the failures I see with non JBL kits are 10-15 rounds of the bottom of the voice coil loose and in the bottom of the motor.

Also that real high Z at resonance as compared to all the other drivers is odd. It would be intersting to observe the "geezer" test speaker with a strobe light. I can usually tell of a coil or spider or some part of the suspension is disconnected or a diaphragm is broken via a high impeadance peak. Something isn't peachy.

Barry.

It seems to me that a higher mms figure, such as what a copper coil substituted for the aluminum coil would undoubtedly contribute, would result in a higher mechanical resonance... which in turn would create greater back-emf that translates to a higher Zmax at resonance. It would also explain a lower output across the frequency range, as more energy would be lost pushing that heavier moving mass...

[Rudy Kleimann]

I used one of the 2245 kits from mackenzie for the sub I built for my brother about two years ago. It did not have the aquaplas on the cone and did not appear to weigh enough to meet the JBL moving-mass spec for the 2245. I expected this from what I had read in this thread so I simply painted duratex (hillbilly aquaplas?) on to the rear of the cone and kept weighing it until I got it in the ball park. Cosmetically it is a dead ringer for my JBL 2245 in the B460. I was using a blown 2240 driver so I didn't have an old 2245 cone to use as a reference for the weight. Obviously a real JBL kit is (was?) the way to go but it wasn't in the budget for this build. Two years later the low-budget recone is working fine.

Don

Don, your post prompted me to pull out my salvaged 2245 cone assemblies to weigh them. All three have the rotted foam removed, but the dust cap, tinsel leads, and spiders are intact but stretched out.

The weights are 159g, 160g, and 160g
JBL T/S parameters specify 185g Mms
Considering mine are missing the foam surround, 25g seems appropriate to make up the difference between my weights and JBL T/S specs.

Has anybody here bought re-foam kits that can weigh the foam surround?

One of these days I'll surgically remove the sunken spider on one of these and re-spider, re-foam, and re-install it in the frame.
One of these days... :hmm: At least that's what I keep telling myself :p

[Earl K]

Don, your post prompted me to pull out my salvaged 2245 cone assemblies to weigh them. All three have the rotted foam removed, but the dust cap, tinsel leads, and spiders are intact but stretched out.

The weights are 159g, 160g, and 160g
JBL T/S parameters specify 185g Mms
Considering mine are missing the foam surround, 25g seems appropriate to make up the difference between my weights and JBL T/S specs.

Has anybody here bought re-foam kits that can weigh the foam surround?

One of these days I'll surgically remove the sunken spider on one of these and re-spider, re-foam, and re-install it in the frame.
One of these days... :hmm: At least that's what I keep telling myself :p

That's good info Rudy , Thanks !

Those figures you've posted actually represent "MMD" in the TS world.

"MMS" includes ( along with the MMD figure ) the weight of the air load ( as it gets compressed ).


:)

[Rudy Kleimann]

That's good info Rudy , Thanks !

Those figures you've posted actually represent "MMD" in the TS world.

"MMS" includes ( along with the MMD figure ) the weight of the air load ( as it gets compressed ).


:)

Don wanted to know cone weight, etc. to compare to recone parts from McKenzie et.al.


Oddly, both of my JBL C8R2226 kits complete with dust caps weigh 102.5g
The official JBL T/S Parameters datasheet specifies the 2226H MMS:98g

My C8R2012 kit complete with dust cap weighs 31g
JBL T/S parameters datasheet specifies a MMS:25g

It would be interesting to know what a correct new foam 2245H surround weighs, or what a vintage C8R2245 kit complete weighs.

Considering that a portion of the surround mass is not considered to be moving, the MMD (sic) will be slightly lower, which jives with my weights.
MMS and Vas are calculated figures determined only through physical testing of a complete woofer, after break-in. It can be measured by increasing the cone mass a precise amount, then re-testing and calculcating how much the known mass addition changed the other T/S parameters