My upcoming 434X, some pics and questions

[scorpio]

Hi all, lon time I haven't posted here.
I've described in part the building of my current system here

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?18475-Another-enclosure-building-thread...

For many reasons, I want to move to a system that is a little easier to live with, that means housed in a single box, no horn perched on top, preferentially single amped. Considering that I do not want to loose on what I like about my current set up, and after hours and hours of thinking, reading, pondering options... I decided to build something very close to 4344. The main differences would be to use my 2450 on small circular tractrix horns instead of the 1 inchers on foghorns. This choice I made because I have the drivers already, and I really like the large circular horns I currently used. The other change would be to use the driver arrangement developped by ayaboh in his excellent set of plans.

So I started last year, first getting a nice pair of 2122H from reconing E-110, as well as a really monstous set of CC'd crossovers build by an esteemed German member of this forum. The lot was not cheap, but I think well worth it (still have not heard the end result!).

Then sawdust started flying before X-mas. I never had to cut so many circles considering that the front face is a sandwich of 12 mm MDF and 18 mm ply, that's 24 circles altogether...

Build was done according to ayaboh's plan from 18 mm ply covered with a layer of 12 mm MDF on the front and 6 mm on the side, with good bracing inside. I used this method hoping that the overall weight would not be too high (these will have to go to my upper floow listening room through a fairly narrow staircase...) and the finish good enough for veneering.

When completed, I started the finishing process. Considering that I was getting my inspiration from 4344 but not trying to duplicate them, I allowed myself a move away from RAL 5007 and walnut, going for something lighter in color. I settled for maple and beige. Another reason for this choice was that this was my first ever attempt at applying veneer, and maple veneer is about the cheapest good quality available over here (I really wanted to use quilted maple, but the cost was a little steep)....

So here I am with the boxes almost ready to be finished, today I was busy prepping them for the finish. I am still hesitating between a water based polyurethane, that would respect as much as feasible the very light color of the wood, or an oil based finish that would color the wood by really highlight the grain, specially for the front trim that I made out of scraps of flame maple I had lying around for ages.

My immediate question is: I have now lightly sandeed the veneer up to 180 grain, but it seems that there is still some raised grain. How far should I sand veneer before applying the oil based finish to have a good result? Would 180 grain be OK, or do I have to go lower, 240.... 400??? lower...?

My other question is that the only oil finish I can easily find is based on Tung oil, I have not used that before, is this a good option? I am used to working with a wiping finish based on linseed oil and varnish, it is really good at highlighting grain, but somewhat fragile. I was wondering if tung oil dries a little more resistant?

Here are some pics of the build and how it looked like a few days ago when I was applying the front trims, sorry they are not in the right order, but I could not find how to change that. I'll post more pics as the finishing process continues and when the components will start to go in there! Hopefully these "little" boxes may start singing in early March!

If anyone can give me some input on preparing the veneer for the oil finish, and any pros and cons vs. water based (I know if has just been discussed in part in connection with walnut finishing...), I'd appreciate it;

Now to the picture, from the current system, to some of the components (2122H and tractrix horns) to some assembly pics,

Cheers!

[scorpio]

A couple more pics....

[grumpy]

Yay! Blondes! :D

Thanks for sharing your work in progress.

[Mr. Widget]

If anyone can give me some input on preparing the veneer for the oil finish, and any pros and cons vs. water based (I know if has just been discussed in part in connection with walnut finishing...), I'd appreciate it...If you have birds eyes or other figured grain it would be a shame to subdue the grain with a water based urethane... that said, they are all not the same and some will bring out the grain much more than others. I personally dislike all urethanes/polyurethanes on open grained woods like walnut unless you first fill the grain... however with a tight grained wood like maple, a satin or even a high gloss urethane can look quite good.

If you use any oil product, linseed oil based or tung oil, it will amber up quite a bit over time. A couple of years ago I did a pair of speakers in very highly figured birds eye maple and I opted for a finish called conversion varnish. It is not quite as water clear as a water based urethane, but it is close and it does not yellow over time and it does bring out the grain. Conversion varnish is a catalyzed clear coat that is boiling water proof and in the hands of a professional it can look spectacular. I didn't want to start out the learning curve on these large speakers with many square feet of costly veneer, so I took the completed cabinets to a shop that specialized in this type of finish and had them spray the finish.


Widget

[Robh3606]

Those look really nice. Keep the pictures coming!

Rob:)

[scorpio]

Some more with the face trim added, I really HATE cutting mitre joints, I am not very good at it, and when like in this case, I only have just enough wood and no latitude for a mistake, not my idea of fun. Made the customary mistake of cutting two edges a little short, but managed to save them pretty well. Once finished, it should look OK even from close by.

Cheers

PS - I'm leaning towards an oil finish, the depth on the grain of the face trim is just to nice that way. Probably will use a tung oil based system with a white pigment, to keep the final result as light colored as possible.

[Mr. Widget]

PS - I'm leaning towards an oil finish, the depth on the grain of the face trim is just to nice that way. Probably will use a tung oil based system with a white pigment, to keep the final result as light colored as possible.I'd avoid white pigment myself... you should lay down some scrap veneer on scrap plywood/MDF and do several tests before tackling the real deal... you will learn a lot.

The curl evident in the front bits is really nice, I agree that hiding it with a water based clear would be a shame.


Widget

[scorpio]

I'd avoid white pigment myself... you should lay down some scrap veneer on scrap plywood/MDF and do several tests before tackling the real deal... you will learn a lot.


Yep, that's what I'm doing, I have a bunch of test pieces so far, and tung oil is right now the best result. What I tried with Boiled linseed oil is too colored to my liking. The water based varnish really does not change the wood color much, but it's a little 'flat', as you say it really does not make justice to the wood. I'll try the pigmented oil formulation tomorrow just to be sure.

I still have some scraps of that maple that I will use to build the stands, I may try to use them to finish the stands to look like extensions of the trims.

[scorpio]

Tried the oil with the white stain, but although it looks quite good on standard, plain grain of the veneer, it does not look so good on the more deeply figured grain of the face strip, so I treated the whole surface with two coats (so far) of tung oil based finish.

I have a question here, after these two coats, the finish is still not very even, what's the best option, continue to build up the finish with more, thinner coats, or try to apply something like a wax?

Thanks,

[Wardsweb]

Great project and it's coming along nicely. I love wood working as much as I love audio. You get such a feeling of accomplishment when you're done. Can you post a picture of the uneven face finish?

[scorpio]

Thanks Wardweb - still not up to your degree of workmanship I have to say, but I like the way they came together nevertheless!

Yes, I have to agree, I don't think it would be wise to start something like this if you don't like woodworking! The only issue for me is that I have a really bad back, and handling these beasts as you work on them is just killing me - good for an occasional hobby, but I couldn't do this as my work. I just couldn't move any longer some of the evenings when I was doing the assembly work...

I have tried to take pictures of the zones in question, but they do not show up very easily, I think it is mostly areas still somewhat starve of oil, I think that I'll apply another coat and maybe let it sit a little longer before wiping it. I've attached them in larger format than usual, sorry about that, but it shows the problems better.

[Wardsweb]

I've never used white pigment before, so I've have a beginner question. What is the look supposed to be? Are you trying to get an even white wash finish?

[rusty jefferson]

I have tried to take pictures of the zones in question, but they do not show up very easily, I think it is mostly areas still somewhat starve of oil, I think that I'll apply another coat and maybe let it sit a little longer before wiping it. I've attached them in larger format than usual, sorry about that, but it shows the problems better.



What you might consider trying is applying a very thin coat of the tung oil and allowing it to dry without wiping it off. Then, "wet" sand the dried oil using 600 grit paper wrapped around a soft sponge. Use tung oil as the lubricant, not water, and buff dry when finished sanding. The wood should be completely sealed out, and because of the sanding, very smooth to the touch. Resume applying coats of oil wiping dry after each coat till you're satisfied with the finish.

When I say thin, I mean it should be obvious the surface is wet, but not thick like a coat of varnish. Dip the tip of the bristles into the oil, then before putting the brush on the wood, dab the brush into a cotton rag to reduce the load. The apply as lightly as possible.

PM me if you need more details.

[scorpio]

I've never used white pigment before, so I've have a beginner question. What is the look supposed to be? Are you trying to get an even white wash finish?

It was mostly out of curiosity. A few years ago, I laid a solid oak floorboard in our living room, the wood was untreated. After a few months exposed to air and natural day light, oak tends to get a yellow color, and we did not like that. So I sanded the surface back to natural color and treated the whole floor with this 'white oil' recipe. The result is that the pigment tends to accumulate in the pores of the wood, highlighting them, and the whole floor keeps its natural color, as if it was freshly cut, no more yellowing due to air/light exposure.

I was interested to see how the maple would react, but the pigment did not accumulate so much in the pores as it does on oak.

[scorpio]

Thanks Rusty, I see what you mean, I'll give it a try, it can't do any harm.

[Audiobeer]

I maybe wrong, but usualy the issues with wood not taking a pigment evenly can be traced to the prep, or lack of. Lot of factors go into play. Some times in the glue operation the veneer is pressed and glue can get into the pores. After removing the clamps we tend to think we have washed all the glue away after wiping it down which isn't always the case. Another example is after finish sanding you realize you have a few marks or areas that need attention so you bare down on that area a little more agressively without finish sanding the whole plane that you were working on. I'm not saying that's what happened, just giving you some possiblities of the cause and effect.

P.S. I gotta say the workmanship is outstanding!!!

[Mannermusic]

The tractrix HF horn choice is interesting. Are those custom jobs or commercially available? Plans for DIY? Thanks, Mike

[scorpio]

I originally planned to make them myself, as a part of the front face of thespeakers, but I really don't have the time, it would have delayed me even more (I started this project in May 2010!!), so I bought them from Stereolab in Germany.

They are pretty nice looking, and they now have a flush fitting "built in" version. The only difficulty is that there is no provision for screwing or bolting them in place, so you need to find another option. I used silicone caulk as an adhesive, it seems to work quite well.

Here are a few pics of the cabs with the horns in place, and also with an additional coat of oil, which solved the little issue I was discussing above.

I'm also including a pic of the crossovers that Guido built for me, with a CD for scale, these are not small!!!

[hjames]

They are looking really great so far ... keep the thread rolling,
and Thanks for sharing!

[Mannermusic]

I originally planned to make them myself, as a part of the front face of thespeakers, but I really don't have the time, it would have delayed me even more (I started this project in May 2010!!), so I bought them from Stereolab in Germany.

They are pretty nice looking, and they now have a flush fitting "built in" version. The only difficulty is that there is no provision for screwing or bolting them in place, so you need to find another option. I used silicone caulk as an adhesive, it seems to work quite well.

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Many thanks! In fact, the Selenium HL-14-50 horns I currently use (look like exponential cousins of your tractrix horns) mount similarly but have 4 equi-spaced spot faces with thru holes on the lip. Looks like that could be added to the tractrix horns if desired. Thanks again - beautiful work!

[scorpio]

Well, although I am not fully happy with the finish, I finally got them up on flight of stairs into my listening room (note: this is one thing a teenage son is helpful for – he’s strong!) about ten days ago. I have worked on ‘stuffing’ them since.

Today, I finally finished the work, not without a few swear words (like getting T-nuts to stay in place or finding our why one of the 2122 wasn’t working because of the insulation being pushed too deep into the connector…). Well, they SING! Thanks to the beautiful drivers and first class crossover (thanks again Guido), these are a step up from my previous system.

A quick and dirty RTA showed that they are pretty flat, but this I will need to work on a little more in the weeks to come. Now to the music – improved sense of space, transparency, microdynamics, and the voices, oh the voices – brilliant!
This endeavor was worth the effort, may be not yet the best speakers in the world (those are the anat…), but for the cash outlay and not taking my labor into account, I could NEVER have found that level of performance in commercially available stuff.

Here are a few pics, I’ll make one last update to this thread whenever Saeman will have camel color grille cloth available, in the meantime I have plenty of fine tuning to think of. And it turns out that my proceed amp used fullrange isn’t that bad!

Cheers,

[4313B]

Sweet! :yes:

[Amnes]

I love'em too. The baffle tho lacks some detail due to the light color. I'm guessing a set of foilcals would finish off the aesthetics. Great job again.

[scorpio]

Thanks, and yes, these will need foil cals of some sort, it's in the plan.

I don't think I'll use straight copies of 4344 since that is not what the speakers really are, so I will first check what I can put together myself. if that does not look good, I might try to locate a pair of copies. I will also be on the look out for some JBL badges,

[scorpio]

I'll also have to change my avatar!

[yggdrasil]

Looking very good. I'm sure you'll enjoy them very much for a looong time.

One thought about the oiled finish - I have done several projects with oiled finish, and they dry up over time. On some of the projects, that were subject to heavy use, I added a few coats of oil-based varnish on top of the oiled finish. This makes the surface both harder and easier to keep clean. You will usually find spesial varnish for each type of oil.


Johnny

[Mannermusic]

Thanks, and yes, these will need foil cals of some sort, it's in the plan.

I don't think I'll use straight copies of 4344 since that is not what the speakers really are, so I will first check what I can put together myself. if that does not look good, I might try to locate a pair of copies. I will also be on the look out for some JBL badges,

For what it's worth, I think they look great as is - a sophisticated, modern "Euro" character. Originals. Badges optional. Is there a scorpio badge?

[scorpio]

I thought about that, but have not found a design I liked yet, I know what I'd like if I go that way, but would have to find it somewhere as I am useless at drawing things like that.

I'm thinking about an aluminum plaque with a circular brushed finish, like on older aircraft panels (think spirit of St Louis...).

[Mr. Widget]

Very Nice!

I like the look of them... I can only imagine they sound great too. Congratulations!


Widget

[Robh3606]

They look great ! Enjoy them

Rob:)