Help on JBL Olympus S7R

[gorg]

Recently I obtained a pair of JBL Olympus C50 S7R Speakers. It sounds great on Jazz and Pop music. I am a classical music nut. Somehow I feel mid-frequency area from classic music which S7R produces is not as warm as it does for Pop music, some metal taste, “cold” and “hard” for most string performance movement. Friends (they are all professional musician from local symphony orchestra) came over and all agreed. I am posting a note here to seek helps. Could it be caused by the component LE85. If I replace LE85 with 375 plus add additional 075, another word, could the S8R represent a better sound for the mid-frequency area from classic music? I am confused as I did research on S7R and I really could find any complain for the quality of sound which S7R produces. The legendary JBL S7R is for Pop music and is just not good for classic music????? It will be hard to believe. I hope somebody could help me out. Thank you very much!

[Zilch]

"Cold," and "Warm" are very subjective when it comes to characterizing the sound, but, in my experience, going to 375 may be the wrong direction, since it's cone midrange drivers that are traditionally considered to provide "warm" sound.

I'd add the 075's (and crossovers) first. It may just be the high end that's missing there. Perhaps this seems contradictory, but if the high overtones of the classical instruments are not faithfully reproduced, you'd perceive it as "cold." Does this make sense in the context of what you're hearing?

Perhaps you attribute more credibility to the mighty Olympus, S7, and S8 than they deserve, as well. While their technology was formidable, they were never "ultimate," and certainly are not today....

Are there any forum members who consider the 375 to be "warmer" than the LE85? Perhaps, we shall see....

[HONK!!]

[rloggie]

Zilch, as someone very new to JBL, with the exception of owning 6 L100 s way back and a pr of Altec Mag VOT for 1 day, I'd love some of your insight into what is the best in house JBL/ Altec speaker in the heritage line excluding the Hartsfield and Paragon. I'm just trying to get the right direction quickly, realizing I need to hear different contenders. Size not an issue.

[gorg]

Thank you [HONK!!] for the inside. I did install a pair of 075 (8 ohms) and N7000 crossover earlier. It created a very high pitch for some music. It could be just because the compatibility issue (the LE15 and LE85 in the box are all 16 ohms). I will try to install 075 with 16 ohms and see.

[gorg]

Thank you [HONK!!] for the inside. I did install a pair of 075 (8 ohms) and N7000 crossover earlier. It created a very high pitch for some music. It could be just because the compatibility issue (the LE15 and LE85 in the box are all 16 ohms). I will try to install 075 with 16 ohms and see.

[Zilch]

Originally posted by rloggie
I'd love some insight into what is the best in house JBL/ Altec speaker in the heritage line Looks like them Altecs you just got are purty nice! :)

Bear in mind, it's ALL a matter of taste. I'm a plug 'n' play kinda user. I like the Biradials, the 4425, 4430, and 4435 best, though I don't consider them "Heritage." Others here with the skill to tune them seem to swear by the large-format 4-ways.

Oddly, and folks are gonna laugh at me here, among the true Heritage stuff, the sweetest sounding setup I have, I don't even know what they are. C35, I think. Highboys. Blonde. Flatback. My "quiet" room. I never blast them.

And here's the icing: I don't know what's IN them, either, LOL. 001 or 030, probably. [PLEASE don't make me look. It's a thousand screws to remove the backs....] [Edit: Well, it's potato mashers, not 075's, so 001, then.]

SOOO, consensus, if any, is gonna have to come from other forum members. It's ALL good! ;)

[speakerdave]

Gorg:

There are several possible explanations for your subjective hearing experience:

1) What speakers have you liked? It may be that you simply need a more refined speaker than a two-way with a fifteen-inch woofer and a horn mid/tweeter thirty some years old.

2) A question of balance. Zilch may be right. Response missing in one area will make another seem prominent. The lack of highs may make the midrange subjectively overdone.

3) The same could apply to missing bass. The surrounds on those woofers may have gotten stiff and inflexible preventing the movement required to reproduce lower frequencies.

4) The diaphragm in the LE85 may be worn out.

5) The capacitors in the crossover a) may have aged into oblivion, b) may not have been very good in the first place. Also. a general upgrade and redesign of the crossover may be in order.

6) You may be hearing the inherent sonic shortcomings of the horn.

7) You may be hearing the fact that the woofer is beaming at the crossover frequency and that as a result the unevenness of response in the power field around that frequency causes a dip and a peak resulting in subjective harshness.

8) Related to No. 7--be aware that in the history of the JBL large format monitor the next major development was a series of 4-way speakers that used a woofer, a smaller cone bass/mid which transitioned better to a mid-range horn and a slot tweeter, the top three units governed by a much more sophisticated crossover which helped create a very much smoother overall response.

If you are interested in making this speaker work for you I would suggest you begin by making sure that it is really operating the way it was designed to operate, and then, based on your judgement of the realities and options, begin trying to improve it if you choose.

Good luck,

David

[jandregg]

I don't have much experience with different models, but I have owned the s7r since 75, bought new. It sounds wonderful on much music, but not classical music that has very many instruments, especially horns. The problems seems to be in the 500 to 900 hz range. The louder the music the more noticable the distortion. When the horns start in on bolero you want to run. I used an electronic crossover at 800hz and that helped a lot with the distortion, but killed the liveliness. Last year with the help of this forum I added a 10 inch jbl from 350 to 1200 hz. Not very different on jazz but huge difference on clasical. Even pop sounds better. I hate to say it, but the s7r can even be bettered by the l100 on some clasical music. Love it anyhow and even more now with the 10 inch handling the lower midrange.

[paragon]

Try a 375 with a 2397 wood horn.
You will have no "horn sound " with this !!

Regards
Eckhard

[gorg]

Thank you David, your check points are very nice. I will check all of areas as you mentioned.

Thank you Zilch too. I will try to add 075 to see if highs will make a difference.

Jandregg, could you please share your method of adding a jbl 10”. It is an interesting thought. I hope the check list David mentioned will resolve the problem, (which include adding 075). Otherwise, adding a jbl 10” seems to be the only option I have left. Is that 10” has a crossover attached to the current crossover?

Other people also mentioned to clean the connection within the box, I will try it too.

Thank you everybody it is very educational.

[gorg]

Paragon: thanks for your suggestion, too.

[JRL]

Hey, how come nobody has asked the obvious? What are you using for amplification and source material? First off, adding a 075 won't help what you're complaining about, and a 375 will just make the situation worse. Before you form too negative an opinion of the S7's, try tube amplification and play a few records on a good turntable/cartridge combination. You'll be in for a big surprise. At the very least, listen with a tube amp and a "warm" cd player (Rega Planars sound great, and are available very inexpensively). I have S7's and often switch back and forth between tube and ss systems. Big difference. Also, make sure that all the connections at the speaker and crossover terminals are nice and clean...don't forget how many decades they've been oxidizing.

[gorg]

JRL: thanks for your negative on my negative. Actually, I want to hear negative on my wonderings. I have to admit that I am a new comer in the high end audio area but I have been seeking a high quality speaker system for a while. I have been researching Altec’s, Tannoy’s and of cause JBL’s. Recently, I purchased a pair of S7R.

I have a double EL 34 (4 el34 in total) single end pure tube amplifier, which produced 9 watts per channel and the max power can go to 2 x 20 watts. I think it has enough power. I also tried MC 240. I am using AMC CD player. For the source, I have been using the top quality CDs, gold, dddd and hi-fi CDs.

As I mentioned in my previous email, it produced a great sound for Jazz and Pop music. When it turns to classic music, I realize there must be something missing. I do not know what. Friends (they all are professional musician from local Symphony Orchestra) came and all agreed that somehow the midrange frequency is not represented naturally, “some metal taste”, “cold”, a little too “hard”. I know it is hard to describe because the personal preference is involved. Meanwhile everybody cannot deny that Olympus does produce a crystal clear sound. The base is right on the point and the layer of the sound is very clearly represented. It is certainly a definite positive feedback for those areas.

I am a classic music nut. So far, I can not really feel good for the sound it produced for big Symphony piece such as Beethoven Symphony 7 in A major conducted by Carlos Kleiber. The sound for string movement is not really acceptable. If Kleiber heard that, probably he would kill me. How to resolve the midrange frequency myth?

I will certainly clean all the connections at the speaker and crossover terminals. It is a very good suggestion. Thank you. I am sure there got be something I did to cause this. It will be very hard for me to believe that the mighty S7R is only good for Pop music but not for classic music. Thank you again. George

I appreciate everybody’s help again and looking forward to hearing any more suggestion.

[JRL]

George, thanks for the information. Frankly, I had hoped that you were using solid state equiptment, and would benefit from a switch to tubes. Alas, such is not the case. I'm using EL34's also, but in the triode mode. I love my S7's for what they're good at, but avoid playing the sort of music that reveals their shortcomings. You may have to do the same. You have to admit, though, that the Olympus enclosures are some of the most beautiful vintage items ever. Here's what I'd suggest: clean up all of the connections, buy or borrow a decent test cd and check each speaker at the frequencies that are bothering you to see if anything is amiss. If not, it's probably time to sell the JBL's and move on. Your JBL's are very marketable, and there are lots of interesting speakers in that price range, but that's another subject. Where do you live? Anyplace with some high-end dealers nearby where you could do some speaker auditioning?

[whgeiger]

G,

Check c/o components, particularly, attenuators for noise due to aging and remaining in the same position for a long duration of time, and capacitors for low series resistance due to aging. The LE85 needs a higher c/o than that of the 375; so, check this also. At 500 Hz. LE85’s start to sound a bit ‘raspy’.

Regards,

WHG

[jandregg]

You should check out all the other suggestions before considering adding a ten inch. Besides the cost of the 8 or 10 inch speakers there is considerable cost in replacing your crossovers. You may have to build some of the crossover filters. It is also possible that the le-85s may need new diaphrams. I don't mean to be discouraging, but there is a lot of work involved. I personally think it is worth the effort and would gladly do it again to get the sonic improvemant on classical music.

john

[Zilch]

We're gonna add a 10" to an Olympus S7R where? See C60 Sovereign (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=27512#post27512) for the basic baffle layout....

[Robh3606]

Hello Zilch

If I were you I would consider selling them. Once you have decided to add a 10" you just might as well look into a 4343/ 4344. You can't do anything to the cabinets or they will loose their value. You could add a 10" in a sub enclosure above the horn but then you need to work the crossovers. Bottom line is you can clone either of these and end with what many would consider a more modern and better system. You would end up with a 2235 bottom either a 2122/2123 mid, 2420/2421/2416/2425/2426 and an 077/2405 slot. Better off with new cabinets to get the drivers in a vertical array with the 10" and compression driver at ear level.

Rob:)

[Mr. Widget]

Originally posted by gorg
Recently I obtained a pair of JBL Olympus C50 S7R Speakers. Somehow I feel mid-frequency area from classic music which S7R produces is not as warm as it does for Pop music, some metal taste, “cold” and “hard” for most string performance movement. Could it be caused by the component LE85.

My very first pair of JBLs were a pair of S7s. At first I loved the dynamic "live" sound that they presented. As time went on I became more and more disappointed with the hard metallic horn like midrange. I changed the crossover from the 500Hz second order LX-5 to a custom built 800Hz third order. It helped, but... I tried adding an 077. It helped because I could turn down the mids, but... I eventually sold them.


Originally posted by gorg
If I replace LE85 with 375 plus add additional 075, another word, could the S8R represent a better sound for the mid-frequency area from classic music?

In more recent years I bought a pair of 2441s. (the improved big brother to the LE85) I tried them on a few horns and for me personally I found they sounded the best on the 2397 horn. I used these with the 2235 and 077. I used them like this, a sort of S8, and also in the context of the 4355 with the added 12" 2202. In both cases the mids are extremely more neutral than those of an S7, S7R, L200 etc.


Originally posted by gorg
I am confused as I did research on S7R and I really could find any complain for the quality of sound which S7R produces. The legendary JBL S7R is for Pop music and is just not good for classic music????? It will be hard to believe. I hope somebody could help me out. Thank you very much!

People rarely post comments bashing a speaker that they have owned. (Bo being both exceptional and the exception in his war on the venerable L100) Compared to what I have now many people would say that the S7 sucked, but as with all good speakers, there are redeeming qualities to all of them. If I were offered a pair of S7Rs, especially in mint C50 Olympus cabinets, and I had the room for them, I would take them in a minute.

Now all of that said, your S7Rs most likely are not up to spec. They probably need to have the woofers reconed, not just new surrounds, the LE85s probably need new diaphragms too, and it is quite possible the capacitors in your crossovers are no longer in spec. To properly bring the whole system up to spec is quite costly. I would probably sell them and try something else.

If you are in love with the cabinets, I think they are very cool myself, I would go the S8R route. Do not buy mint 375 drivers. It is a waste of money. Buy ugly ones send them to JBL have them remagnetized, gaps cleaned and realigned, and new diaphragms installed. You can save even more money by buying the pro version the 2440. It will cost about $700 for JBL to refurbish a pair of 375s in addition to what you pay for the drivers. You could easily pay over $1000 for a pair of very pretty but way out of spec "red wax seals intact" 375s on eBay. I would also lean toward the 077/2405 in stead of the 075/2402.

Widget

[Mr. Widget]

"It's the best loudspeaker system that JBL makes, and that makes it pretty good.

JBL calls it the S8R system, but other people use all the words you'd expect to hear: bright, clean, accurate, dynamic, impeccable. Great presence. Great upfront sound.

And they say things you've never heard before: Absolutely perfect balance- bass, midrange and high. No compensation needed. No weak spots.

That's a lot of words, but this is a lot of speaker.

JBL S8R. It only costs a thousand dollars an ear."


From a JBL promotional brochure circa 1974.



I am not sure I would completely agree with all the hyperbole today, but in 1974 it wasn't too far off the mark.

Widget

[gorg]

Thanks everybody. It has been very educational.

Whgeiger, I will certainly check all the components in the crossover especially for the c/o components. It seems a few fine turnings to do.

Besides the validation of all the connections and components, from the communications, I have a feeling that everybody seems to agree that At 500 Hz. LE85’s does have a weak point and it seems it could be resolved by change midrange drives and horns.

Widget, could you spare some knowledge on 2440s. I know it is a professional version of 375 but is there any other difference on their sound qualities? You also mentioned you prefer 077/2405 in stead of the 075/2402. Could you please explain the difference. I am looking for a better sound quality for classical music.

I appreciate all the help you guys has been offering.

George

[John]

The 2440 is in all aspects the exact same driver as the 375
and the 2405 will reproduce the high freq, past human hearing where as the 2402 rolls off after 15,000 hz. also the 2402 has a tight pattern and the 2405 has a wide dispersion

[Mr. Widget]

Originally posted by gorg

Widget, could you spare some knowledge on 2440s. I know it is a professional version of 375 but is there any other difference on their sound qualities? You also mentioned you prefer 077/2405 in stead of the 075/2402. Could you please explain the difference. I am looking for a better sound quality for classical music.


There are cosmetic differences between the two, but they are electrically and acoustically identical. The 2441 is the equivalent to the 376. In general I prefer the 2441/376 to the 2440/375 as it sounds smoother to me. Both of these use the same magnet, throat etc. and a simple diaphragm change will make the driver one or the other.

I prefer the 077 to the 075 as it has a more extended HF, is less beamy, and has a more delicate sound when used properly. They are both pretty beamy though. The 077 really sounds it's best crossed over at higher frequencies. The 2441/2405 (376/077) combo works very well with a third order crossover at 10KHz. JBL used the 2440/2405 in the 4350 system by letting the 2440 run out naturally with no low pass (HF attenuation) and a third order filter on the 2405 at about 9KHz. If you are building a system that requires a lower crossover the 075 should be considered.

As for what makes a good classical speaker or a good Jazz, Pop, etc. I don't think in those terms. I think a speaker should sound good with all types of music. It is true that every speaker will sound best with certain discs while another speaker may favor other discs.

I can't be overly strenuous in my recommendation that you have the speaker components thoroughly gone over as a loudspeaker has moving parts that do wear out. They will continue to play but at a diminished capacity for years.

While I do think the LE85 is a very good 1" compression driver it really is being asked to do too much in the S7R and I am glad you picked up on that.

Good luck in your quest!

Widget

[gorg]

hello everybody, I just wnat to keep you all posted what I have done for my midrange myth.

I took me a little while to get all parts. Eventually I got everything ready, 3440, 075 and n7000.

At the same time, I cleaned up the connectors and wires. I have completed the upgrade my s7r is now the s8r.

I can not believe what the difference it made. The metal sound is gone and surprisingly the bass sounds MUCH MUCH better too. More detailed, more dynamic and more “live”. I can hear a lot of layers which I have been looking for on s7r. I also played the pop and jazz music and certainly it sounds better. Now I can say THIS IS A JBL speaker.

I want to thank you for all your help and the encouragement.

Take care you all.

George

[Bestsmurfs]

I have a pair of C-50 S8's. These speakers are not very accurate by today’s standards. They are virtually the same speakers used in stadium rock sound reinforcement during the 70’s. I thought they were pretty good until I bought an audiophile system built around B&W 804 Nautilus speakers and a Velodyne sub. I had no idea what I was missing. Although the JBL’s have many accuracy and distortion shortcomings they can’t be beat when it comes to LOUD. If you want to get a pretty good idea of what I’m talking about, compare the JBL sound to a pair of audiophile quality headphones. You will be able to identify the timbre of instruments much more clearly. I’m not trying to be a JBL basher, they just have a time and place in music.

PS: I replaced my 375’s with 2441’s and pocketed $500. I’m still shopping for 077’s to replace the 075’s I sold as well. Best of luck!

[Bestsmurfs]

I know just how you feel because that’s what I thought too! The first few times I heard audiophile speakers, I smirked and thought “they must be kidding” and with a six inch woofer??? But the truth HURTS. I have two systems and those cheap skinny B&W’s out perform the JBL’s to the point of embarrassment. The JBL cabinets add standing waves and coloration; Low frequency’s are peaky around 40hz and roll off quickly, the horns are plus or minus 10 dB and add lots of distortion (even good ones) and the 075’s roll off at 10k. Sometimes they sound great, it's just not what’s on the recording.

Try this simple test: Play ‘Hilary Hahn Bach Concertos’ on your JBL’s. If it sounds like she’s playing a chain saw and your ears are burning you need new speakers. Conceivably you can play any good solo violin recording and get the same result. I just bought 2441’s on eBay last week and of course they are shot, but it was expected at $365. Now....back to Hilary. This recording punishes any component that exhibits even a hint of harshness.

Please don’t kick me off the forum, I love JBL’s, I just found it helpful to question my brand allegiance when it comes to my passion, listening to music.

[scott fitlin]

You cant compare these two speaker brands! You just cant. B & W is great for listening to jazz, so is JBL!

They are two completely different types of sound. I love B & W 801,s the highs are extremely delicate, and its a very neutral sounding speaker to me. Great for jazz. But JBL suits my taste better when I want bold sound! Led Zeps "Kashmir" is amazing through great JBL,s!

B & W is great, but there are times when it must be heard through great JBL,s!

[Bestsmurfs]

Simply put, if the B&W 804 didn't outperform a 45 year old design there'd be something wrong now wouldn't there?

Thanks guys, I’ve just got nothing to do on a rainy day….. Those new JBL’s must sound great but they have a nasty WAF and you are right, I can’t afford them anyway. I appreciate your acknowledging technological advances and frankly JBL dropped out of the game for a very long time!

My point is some poor guy out there is trying to listen to classical music and he’s facing a long hard road if he insists on vintage JBL’s.

Have Fun!

[Mr. Widget]

Originally posted by Giskard

"My point is some poor guy out there is trying to listen to classical music and he’s facing a long hard road if he insists on vintage JBL’s."

I'll let them know you're worried for their well being as I run into them. ;)

"...as I run into them."

As in, run into them in your K2-S9800 equipped Hummer?

Widget

[Mr. Widget]

Maybe there would be room for those skinny B+Ws....


Widget

[Bestsmurfs]

Well so far you called me a queer, pussy whipped, poor boy who never gets out. and I'm laughing my ass off with my skinny B&W's and my S8's. Whatever.......

Audio stores in the northeast don't carry JBL and I don't buy my audio gear at Best Buy.

Reviewing the thread several others eluded that he audition new speakers. Correct Answer.

Velodyne........ 5HZ vibration that will crumble your neighbors driveway

[Mr. Widget]

Originally posted by Bestsmurfs

Velodyne........ 5HZ vibration that will crumble your neighbors driveway

I have a Velodyne HGS sub. They are stunning at 20Hz, but not very musical above 45-50Hz.

The JBLSub1500, an example of the newer JBL engineering;), will also stun you with it's 20Hz performance but it also sounds musical.

Widget

[Bestsmurfs]

Thanks Mr. Widget.

I had a hard time getting my 15" HGS II dialed in until I tried a tip I saw in the Mapleshade catalog. That was to tie in using speaker cables from my CJ amp and crossing it over as low as possible. That would be around 60hz to blend with my “no bass” skinny speakers rated at 42Hz.

Actually I did buy a JBL Surround sound system in a box from J&R in NY. It’s OK for surround sound TV but definitely not for music.

I know you already know all this stuff because you helped me a while back……

[Bestsmurfs]

Got to go. Wifes home, I have to turn off the music and cook dinner.

[Mr. Widget]

Originally posted by Bestsmurfs

I had a hard time getting my 15" HGS II dialed in until I tried a tip I saw in the Mapleshade catalog. That was to tie in using speaker cables from my CJ amp and crossing it over as low as possible. That would be around 60hz to blend with my “no bass” skinny speakers rated at 42Hz.




Yeah, I am using my Velodyne with some "skinny" Monitor Audio speakers that don't quite make it to the 45Hz point either. I "fixed" the problem by adding a Scanspeak helper woofer that I run from 30Hz to 150Hz. Surprisingly it nicely fills in the upper bass without ruining the clarity or imaging of the somewhat lean but otherwise excellent speakers..

Widget

[Bob in Denver]

I listen to classical music most of the time with both tube and solid state.I find that the 2440(same as 375) mounted on my wooden Edgar horn sounds pure and very smooth and life-like.Maybe it's just the tractrix aspect.

[Bestsmurfs]

How Bob, I was just out in Denver to visit my son. Very nice indeed! Sorry that I don't know much about the math.... I'm sure the wood lends mellowness to the tone that is superior to my plastic lens. But as Mr. Giskard said before he deleted his numerous posts “Simply put, if the B&W 804 didn't outperform a 45 year old design there'd be something wrong now wouldn't there?”

If you are happy, we are all happy too! I was listening to my JBL’s today and by any reasonable standards they are great speakers. It’s only when you are able to compare them against a current design that the shortcomings of 40 year old technology become apparent.

JBL & Tube = Audio Happiness

My own experience with tube amps relates to guitar amps only, I have two Fenders and a Marshall. I don’t play a solid state amp because they lack sensitivity and sound harsh. In stereo my concern is the slow degradation of tubes that occurs and the disappointment to find you’ve been listening to unbalanced signals for the past two years. Tubes are great, I would just want an oscilloscope in the audio path for verification. As a compromise I use a Conrad Johnson SS amp.

Have fun and enjoy your JBL’s

[4313B]

Originally posted by Bestsmurfs
But as Mr. Giskard said before he deleted his numerous posts “Simply put, if the B&W 804 didn't outperform a 45 year old design there'd be something wrong now wouldn't there?”I deleted my posts because instead of even trying to understand what I was saying you were posting really stupid shit in response. It has since been pointed out to me that you are a "troll". I said this statement was queer, especially for a second post - "Please don’t kick me off the forum, I love JBL’s, I just found it helpful to question my brand allegiance when it comes to my passion, listening to music." - I didn't say you were queer. I didn't call you pussy whipped either but you chose to take it that way. That's your call, not mine. I notice you did manage to understand one sentence I posted and use it to your advantage. This post I won't delete. Don will have to.

[Bestsmurfs]

I found a cool feature on this site where you can place members on an ignore list. That way you will not be subjected to reading their "stupid" comments and responses or be exposed to opinions that differ from your's. It seems like a good idea for some. I for one do not intend to use it as I feel that it is a benefit to hear the many varied opinions, especially from the experts on this site. Thanks,
Dwight, JBL fan since 1968

[Zilch]

Anybody what has me on their "Ignore" list should let me know immediately so's I might henceforth impugn them with impunity.... :D