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View Full Version : 4345 clones. Let the games begin!



Amnes
02-04-2011, 10:39 AM
Hi gals and guys.

I'v been requesting advice from you regarding JBL products. It has led me to start a 4345 clone project. I will be needing even more valuable advice in the future. So far I scored a pair of alnico 2405's on ebay and just made a deal with a fellow forumer for a pair of 2245's. Nice budget sucker these JBL's are. Oh well after all quality costs. Anyway my plan is to get a professional carpenter build me the cabs, as I know a company that is nothing but quality and doesn't cost a fortune.

On the lower midrange I plan to use NOS 2123's.
That leaves me searching for a pair of midrange drivers, horns and 2308 lenses of course. It seems I'll be searching mainly for 2425's and 2440's and apropriate horns.

So anyway I need to repair my budget and will be sourcing more drivers soon. The quicker I hear these babies play the sooner my face will start looking banana like. :D

Cheers, Maciek.

dkalsi
02-04-2011, 11:45 AM
Maciek,

Good decision.

If I could make one recommendation, I would suggest you go with the 2441 (or 2445) and 2311 horn in lieu of the 2307+2425. To top it off, finish them off with the latest itteration of Giskard's 3155 Charged Coupled Crossovers.

The 2307+2425 is no slouch - its just that....for some strange reason...the 2" driver is more pleasing to my ears. Also bi-amp - I can tell the 2245H enjoys power.

All in all - I would say make your 4345 Clones equivalent to ones built by Giskard a few months back.

Goodluck.

Dhar

Uncle Paul
02-04-2011, 12:05 PM
Dhar nailed it. If I were to go through the trouble of cloning 4145's I'd go all the way. 4341b's version is the ultimate (until someone uses beryllium dias and gets the network nailed). Also consider the folded "mini hartsfeld" lenses instead of the 2308 if you can find a pair. They are accoustically equivalent, but much more attractive and made out of metal.

jbl_daddy
02-04-2011, 07:59 PM
I know what a 4341 is but what is special about a 4341b??? Just wondering...

JeffW
02-04-2011, 08:44 PM
I know what a 4341 is but what is special about a 4341b??? Just wondering...


I think he meant that username "4313b"'s were the ultimate. Just a typo. 4313B built some quasi 4345s with 2" compression drivers and a CC network that were pretty sweet.

Amnes
02-05-2011, 04:32 AM
Now I'm convinced to the 2445/2311 combo as it seems the driver is better suited for Giskards 3155cc also availible quite a bit easier and cheaper same for diaphragms so can't go bad with that one. As for the lenses I highly aesthetically prefer the 2308. Might try to make some replicas of my own in any sort of exotic material ?wood, carbon fiber, chinese plastic?

When it comes to power I like listening to music at very moderate levels. Loudness just distracts from the essence of music. I will be most likely trying to achieve a great tonal balance rather than extreme levels of hearing loss.

So now it seems I have most the basic info figured out.

Dhar, you used the 2122 while I plan on using the 2123. Did you perform any mods to accomodate?

Uncle Paul
02-05-2011, 06:39 AM
I think he meant that username "4313b"'s were the ultimate. Just a typo. 4313B built some quasi 4345s with 2" compression drivers and a CC network that were pretty sweet.

Yup, just a typo. my brain said type 4313B, but my fingers had their own plans.

Woody Banks
02-05-2011, 10:02 AM
[QUOTE=Amnes;304975]. As for the lenses I highly aesthetically prefer the 2308. Might try to make some replicas of my own in any sort of exotic material ?wood, carbon fiber, chinese plastic?

Something like this maybe?

rgrjit8
02-08-2011, 04:47 AM
So Amnes...

Does this mean you passed on the XPL200s?

Though I'm fond of the XPLs, the 4345 is definitely the way to go.:applaud:

Amnes
02-09-2011, 04:36 AM
Well, the dude selling the xpl's is doing so for three years now. I guess they might be still for sale when I finish cloning. So no worries might snatch them some day aswell.

Those lenses a few posts up are really nice. After giving it thought custom lens fabrication would be unworthwile for me.

As horny as the blue baffles get me this Kenrick sound interpretation:
http://www.jbl43.net/img/4344-86-2.jpg

of the baffle is way better looking than the original. Although I will rather be going with shiny black finished oak veneer (as it is cheap, availible, hard and what not over here) than piano black as I already have the Ti250's shining. I don't plan to build grilles for the cabinets as I find them ugly and in most cases sound degrading. Why bother if I don't like them?

Is it just me or are those the best looking freeform aesthetic interpretations of JBL cabs? More here: http://jbl43.com/?pid=23429468

hjames
02-09-2011, 05:00 AM
Is it just me or are those the best looking freeform aesthetic interpretations of JBL cabs? More here: http://jbl43.com/?pid=23429468

They are VERY nice looking cabinet faces - tho I'm not a fan of piano black either.
Yumm!

Amnes
02-09-2011, 11:15 AM
I grabbed a single diaphragm off ebay: http://cgi.ebay.de/JBL-D8R2425-Membran-2425-Hochtoner-Schwingspule-/290530161793?pt=PA_Systeme_Beschallung&hash=item43a4f27481&autorefresh=true#ht_500wt_1156

Next in the line 2307's and 2425's.

BMWCCA
02-09-2011, 05:07 PM
As horny as the blue baffles get me this Kenrick sound interpretation . . . of the baffle is way better looking than the original.

Is it just me or are those the best looking freeform aesthetic interpretations of JBL cabs?

Actually, I prefer mine, but then . . . they are mine. Thanks Rick!:

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c378/BMWCCA1/4345-14-2s.jpg

Amnes
02-26-2011, 07:48 AM
I already have 2245's, 2405's, 2425h's and 2307's in the mail. I now only need to grab a set of 2123h's but have completely no more cash untill I sell off other audio gear that was meant to finance the project :D

I now started studying x-over diagrams. I decided to go the 4344 mk 2 route for upper 3-way. The schematic can be found here: http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?24283-4344-Mk-II-network

I will be building them mostly of parts availible from a reputable Polish copper coil manufacturer. They also carry jantzen audio cross caps (which I'll be using) and various grades of resistors. Here comes a bunch of questions regarding x-overs.

1. I plan on going full passive with bi-amp option and the switch thing as I will be using quality grade parts for the x-overs. I don't plan on going active. Will the switch thing be needed in that case?

2. Could a upper 3-way 4344 mk 2 x-over clone use any tweaks since the midrange compression driver is going to be a 2425h? Or will it be possible to do any required adjustments via the L-pad.

3. Inductors. The 4344 mk2 schematic notes using iron core and air coil inductors. Giskard in his equivalent used only air coil from what I see in the pic below (left side, courtesy Giskard):
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=46971&d=1281711479

Is it generally preferred to use thick wire air coil or should I stick with the specific type, inductance and resistance values as per schematic, since I can buy nearly precisely the required values. Or maybe are some of the 5 air coil inductors visible in the picture specifically tailored to omitt the resistors in series

4. L-pad inductors (on pic, courtesy Giskard). Is it possible to buy this stuff anywhere? Or will putting in a huge 3.5mH inductor and 10watt resistor be just as good or even better?
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=46973&d=1281711970

5. L-pads. Are these the only available substitute?: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=260-252

6. Ceramic vs. non inductive wire resistors, which to choose?

7. And the most difficult question of all previous. Crossing the upper 3-way and 2245. It is clear to me that the LF part of the 4344 mk2 is not suitable for the 2245. Can I simply put in the LF section from the 3144/3145 CC equivalent (maybe some tweaks) or is it a no go. I still hope it is doable as my crossover plan for these beasts is based on the theory that it is possible. Pic below:
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i286/amnesboy/JBL%204345/Biased31443145Schematic.jpg

I think that's all I had in mind for now. Any non requested additional info will be also highly regarded.

BMWCCA, your cabs look great and i might go that color scheme after all!

Cheers, Maciek.

Ruediger
02-26-2011, 08:01 AM
See the thread "Enclosure Size for 2215H" in the "Lansing Product Technical Help" Forum for considerations about the series coil in the crossover. You will need a coil with a core.

Ruediger

4313B
02-26-2011, 10:46 AM
1. I plan on going full passive with bi-amp option and the switch thing as I will be using quality grade parts for the x-overs. I don't plan on going active. Will the switch thing be needed in that case?No.


3. Inductors. The 4344 mk2 schematic notes using iron core and air coil inductors. Giskard in his equivalent used only air coil from what I see in the pic below (left side, courtesy Giskard):Those networks you are looking at are bi-amp only networks.

I use iron cores on the 2245H and 2122H as shown in this "in progress" photo of the final revision of the full passive 4344/4345 equivalent network with bi-amp option.

4. L-pad inductors (on pic, courtesy Giskard). Is it possible to buy this stuff anywhere? Or will putting in a huge 3.5mH inductor and 10watt resistor be just as good or even better?The total DCR has to match. However you accomplish that is your choice.

Amnes
02-26-2011, 11:12 AM
Thank you so much for the input! It clears thing up a bit.

The hardest question still remains: #7. Crossing the upper 3-way and 2245. It is clear to me that the LF part of the 4344 mk2 is not suitable for the 2245. Can I simply put in the LF section from the 3144/3145 CC equivalent (maybe some tweaks) or is it a no go. I still hope it is doable as my crossover plan for these beasts is based on the theory that it is possible

yggdrasil
02-27-2011, 01:05 AM
The hardest question still remains: #7. Crossing the upper 3-way and 2245.Do yourself a favor and install an active crossover between the woofers and the top 3 drivers. Problem solved. Your 2245's will be very pleased connected directly to a power amp.

Amnes
02-27-2011, 08:51 AM
It's been so many times I've changed my mind on this subject. Finally, I shall go active. Should be cool. I previously thought and now again am thinking of ordering this kit: http://marchandelec.com/xm1.html
That a nice psu an elegant enclosure will cost no more than jantzen caps for the LF passive filter.

Thank's for the input and sorry for being a pain in the... but asking questions is more productive than shooting into the dark.

4313B
02-27-2011, 09:08 AM
It's been so many times I've changed my mind on this subject. Finally, I shall go active. Should be cool. I previously thought and now again am thinking of ordering this kit: http://marchandelec.com/xm1.html
That a nice psu an elegant enclosure will cost no more than jantzen caps for the LF passive filter.

Thank's for the input and sorry for being a pain in the... but asking questions is more productive than shooting into the dark.I'm glad you saw the light.

dkalsi
02-27-2011, 12:21 PM
I'm glad you saw the light.

Ditto

Chas
03-02-2011, 01:28 PM
Ditto
Yes, you won't regret it. It is a huge improvement.:)

Altec Best
03-12-2011, 10:27 AM
Do yourself a favor and install an active crossover between the woofers and the top 3 drivers. Problem solved. Your 2245's will be very pleased connected directly to a power amp.


That is some really great advice Johnny ! ;)

Amnes
03-18-2011, 12:48 PM
:o:

I was really horny for the idea of building 4345 clones. Now, when the only driver missing in my cabinet is the 2123h i decided to kill the project. I'm sure even though most of you don't care I still will explain. I'm into diy since I was 7 that makes me a diy'er with 15 years of experience. Every project I approach is executed with clinical attention with extensive R&D in the time of preparation for such a project. This forum and it's content created by the users was very inspirational and the help provided in reply to my many questions invaluable. Digging even deeper into the topic of loudspeaker building one thing led me to another and now I have a different goal. Unfortunately I'll not be using any of the drivers collected for this new project.

JBL 4345 are still a dream of mine and I will become a proud owner of a mint pair sooner or later. I shall not be satisfied with a pricey and not quite original copy. Would I drive in a Ferrari copy? No. Neither will I copy JBL studio monitor speakers.

Open baffle - here I come!

Cheers, Maciek.

Mr. Widget
03-18-2011, 01:03 PM
Open baffle - here I come!You can't just tease us like that and call it done!

I can think of a dozen or so reasons not to live with a pair of 4345s... but open baffle?

I have a lot of respect for Siegfried Linkwitz and others who have gone this route... I have yet to hear one that I would want to listen to exclusively though.

Please tell us more! Perhaps in a new thread.

Widget

4313B
03-18-2011, 01:16 PM
I'm sure even though most of you don't care I still will explain.Mr. Widget cares! :)

Amnes
03-18-2011, 01:57 PM
Oh, and a pair of 801 urei's appeared locally availible just after my post. I might go ballistic buying again. :D Shure I'll smack a new thread when there'll be anything to show. The OB might even consist of a pair of 18" JBL's to make it LH worthy.