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View Full Version : L300 136A Recone nightmare



guitarnie
01-31-2011, 01:34 PM
First post long time lurker. Anyway I went to pick up my 136A's from a local repair shop today, I was so excited to finally hear these speakers.

The shop had them for about seven weeks and today was gonna be a awesome day....Wrong!

I dropped the speakers off in December and told the front desk dude that I needed these to be reconed with JBL kits "Oh yea man that's the only way to go with these beauties".

We talk shop and I tell them they are for a pair of L300's I bought with bad woofers.
I felt like they were in good hands. Wrong.

I asked what was the JBL part #, front desk dude gets the tech that repaired them to the front.

He explains that the kit is no longer available and they used non JBL parts. He also states that the kit used had a accordion surround that he had cut out and installed foam to match the original.

I asked for the owner or manager, he comes out threatening to kick me out of the store for being loud and arguing. His solution was for me to source (buy) the appropriate kits and he will install them for free.

I told the owner that I had asked for JBL kits only, he said for me to prove that is what I wanted. Unfortunately my film crew was not with me when I dropped the speakers off.

He then instructed front desk dude to refund my money and took my 136a's to the back. I wound up getting my speakers back and just leaving.

So $438.76 later I have a pair of 136A's with non JBL kits.
I paid with a debit card so my bank will not do anything until the transaction is non "pending".
I filed with the BBB, I guess I am SOL! I don't even want even listen to these L300's now.

jbl_daddy
01-31-2011, 03:25 PM
Where did you take them, attach a picture of the carnage so we know the severity of the damage. Pm. Me and I will let you know where I would go in atlanta.
Mark

guitarnie
01-31-2011, 04:06 PM
Wizard Electronics they are on JBL's authorized service center page. They scratched the wrinkle paint, these things were mint. I reiterated numerous times, JBL only!


http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n255/guitarnie/136a2.jpg

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n255/guitarnie/136a3.jpg

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n255/guitarnie/136a4.jpg

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n255/guitarnie/136a1.jpg

Robh3606
01-31-2011, 05:12 PM
Well that sucks. They are correct on one point that the 136A/2231 kit is not available. That said the correct replacement kit is the 2235 recone kit. You need to really break there balls on this. I have no doubt the 2235 kit is available. They should redo them right as you requested. Do you have anything in writing showing you wanted the stock kits?? They should have given you a quote with the JBL kits P/N on it C8R2235 if I remember right.

Rob:)

macaroonie
01-31-2011, 05:17 PM
In mitigation the recone job does look fairly neat and tidy , foam in the right place , no messy glue etc. Did they not write you a job sheet when you dropped them off ?

guitarnie
01-31-2011, 05:45 PM
The invoice only states;
PROBLEM/COMPLAINT:RE-CONE RESTORE

No hack job, but not JBL. I assumed since it is an authorized JBL service center they would use JBL parts as I requested. I was naive.
I can't prove that I requested JBL kits, It's not on the invoice. Hell, they have it listed as an D-136A. I was referred by JBL's website. I never even knew that they existed.

pos
02-01-2011, 05:25 AM
C8R2235 is the official replacement kit stated by JBL, so if they really are a JBL authorized center that is what they should have used.

Your invoice stated "recone restore", but that is not a restoration as they did not install the proper replacement kit stated by JBL. You don't need anything more to prove your right.

At a last resort you can ask them to to the burning and measure the actual T/S (and try to be there when they do...) and these do not match the original then you can ask for a refund.

off course all this is easier said than done...

guitarnie
02-01-2011, 01:19 PM
Would JBL even care to hear how this company has treated me? Any ideas on who to talk to if so?

http://www.jblproservice.com/service/georgia.html

guitarnie
02-02-2011, 07:55 PM
Ok thanks to the leads to Pro JBL but I need a contact on the Consumer end of warranty admin, anybody know anybody?
I have a very nice lady (Jamie) in parts reaching out to help. She is asking other dealers about the situation.
Will these aftermarket kits sound OK? or just gut and start over?

Maron Horonzakz
02-03-2011, 05:57 AM
Have you listened to them??? they might even sound better.

cooky1257
02-03-2011, 12:40 PM
What about the mass ring, did they, didn't they?

guitarnie
02-03-2011, 01:31 PM
Response from the owner to the BBB complaint

On February 02, 2011, the business provided the following information:
To Whom It may concern.

I am the owner of Wizard Electronics and I personally spoke with this customer. We think that he is being completely unreasonable and I will try my best to shed some light as to why we think this way.

As a JBL authorized Service Center, we are not allowed to use generic parts to make repairs, unless the JBL factory no longer manufactures' a specific replacement part, and also only when they consider that there is no other part that they make that is a viable substitute.

In this case, we contacted JBL and were told that they no longer make the part for these speakers, nor would they recommend another of their kits be installed in them, considering the model of cabinets that these speakers are being used in. They knew of this model of generic kit, and explained that it used the exact same edge wound voice coil, but that we would have to change the cone edge surround, from the accordion edge, to the rolled foam edge, and that then the kits would be an exact spot-on match to the original equipment.

Nowhere in our records did it say that the customer would not accept anything other than JBL original parts. If he had stated this, it would have been noted on his work order. Also, we feel that he had a responsibility, to himself, to review his work order, before he left his speakers in our care, to insure that it represented correctly the service he was requesting, and that it including any specific parameters.

He now states after the fact, that he knew the parts were no longer manufactured, but that another company on the west coast has some of the old parts in stock. We were not informed of any of this, at the time he dropped off his equipment. Had he, we would have contacted this company to see if they were willing to sell us, or him, the parts.

As I mentioned, earlier, we are an authorized JBL Service Center, and so we are obliged to follow their instructions, and those did not include any Internet research, or calling all over the country to see if anyone else had some of the original JBL parts still in stock.

We provided him with something that looks the same, sounds the same, and is built to JBL specifications exactly replicating the original parts.

Furthermore, his comment about us blatantly ripping him off is absurd. He did not request to be provided with an estimate, nor did he ask about our pricing. He simply dropped these speakers off with the statement, "Re-Cone And Restore".

When he came in to pick up his speakers, we were honest about everything. If we were deceitful people, trying to scam Mr. Speer, we could have lied, and he would have probably never known the difference, but we wouldn't do that. Again, we are honest people, and have been providing an honest service here for 37 years.

I told Mr. Speer that if he really believed that he could find the original parts, (recone kits), get them, and I would then remove the parts we had so beautifully installed, and that I would install the JBL parts for free, plus I would refund the cost of the parts that we did use. He then told us, never mind, just let me have my speakers, we did, and he left.

My offer still stands. If he can actually find true JBL parts that are the correct ones made for those speakers, when used in those speaker cabinets, I will have my JBL certified technician install them for free, meaning no additional charge, and I will refund the cost to him for the parts that we already used. I will not, however, do this with a substitute JBL recone kit, which as he now states, "will work". If he was willing to go that route, and accept a substitute JBL part, why didn't he say so when he dropped these off with us for repair?

I feel that this customer knew these parts were no longer available, and after dropping off his speakers for repair, he discovered someone who claims to have the original parts in stock, he has buyer's remorse, and is either turning to you as a means to leverage against his failure to make sure his work order correctly stated what he wanted, or he is trying to use your leverage to gain a resolution that satisfies his change of mind, after the fact.

I am very sorry for all of this, but feel that the work we performed was correct, fair, and as communicated to us by the documentation created at the time he left his speakers with us for repair.

His coming into our lobby, raising his voice to the level of yelling, with analogies as to how this is like restoring old cars, and claiming specifics about the work request and previous communication that is clearly not on the work order, comes after the fact, and cannot be honored.

My offer still stands.

grumpy
02-03-2011, 02:04 PM
Seems like they're willing to work with you, and did nice work.

Also seems like there is some misinformation floating about:

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Transducers%20Parts%20List/Transducer%20Parts%20List.pdf

where 2231A = 136A

I would -think- they should know about this list, as should JBL resource staff.
Who knows what happened there, and I won't uselessly speculate.

Also, seems like you were charged quite a bit for aftermarket kits
(perhaps due to the extra work involved in reworking aftermarket kits ...
unfortunately and unnecessarily). A written quote with all conditions of
repair listed would have protected both you and the owner, or at least
caused less confusion.

I'd suggest taking them up on their offer or if they sound fine...let it be, live and learn.

guitarnie
02-03-2011, 02:56 PM
The big deal is I never ever heard of the place before. They are on JBL's site. I only went there because of that. I was told on the phone that they would use JBL kits, I told them in person I wanted JBL kits only. I told the owner that a JBL center on the west coast had kits that would work. I told him I knew that the 136A's original kits are NLA but there were JBL kits that can be used.
He states that "In this case, we contacted JBL and were told that they no longer make the part for these speakers, nor would they recommend another of their kits be installed in them"
Is the true, Is this JBL's official stance pertaining to this driver?

grumpy
02-03-2011, 03:10 PM
It's not exactly a new question (see link below). I don't know what more information
you could need :dont-know:.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?117-Make-an-2231A-out-of-2220A&s=&highlight=2231%202235%20136

guitarnie
02-03-2011, 04:32 PM
Well here it is in black and white from Harmon
http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/L300%20Summit%20ts.pdf

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n255/guitarnie/l300.jpg

Robh3606
02-03-2011, 05:39 PM
They knew of this model of generic kit, and explained that it used the exact same edge wound voice coil, but that we would have to change the cone edge surround, from the accordion edge, to the rolled foam edge, and that then the kits would be an exact spot-on match to the original equipment.


JBL told them to use an aftermarket kit when the correct kits are CR82235's?? They then told the shop how to make an equivalent out of parts of different aftermarket kits??

Does that sound right to you?? Should have stopped at they told us they didn't have a kit.

Rob:)

clmrt
02-03-2011, 05:57 PM
You deserved a phone call when things started going pear-shaped. Instead, they made a compromise based on everyone's input except yours.

They owe you satisfaction. If they expect you to be satisfied with what they gave you, you need some kind of assurance that you *should* be satisfied, not simply taking their word for it.

Measurements would show if the driver is at least performing as it should. If it is out of spec by, say, 10% on any major parameter vs. either the original or the 2235, I say you deserve your money back and a huge apology.

If it is within spec, you should be satisfied.

guitarnie
02-03-2011, 06:01 PM
"Does that sound right to you??"
Not at all, there are so many things in his statement that are just lies, I asked twice about the cost and never said "Re-cone Restore"

4345
02-04-2011, 05:35 AM
If the C8R2235 kit is available then he should have used that kit. If they have been re-coning JBL's for a long time they should know this. This is a very common kit and re-cone job. I have had numerous 2231's and 136A's reconed over the years and they always use the 2235 kit. This substitute, if you can call it that, has been going on for more than 20 years.

I think in order to make a few extra bucks he used a non-JBL kit, then is using this crazy story to cover his tracks. I would like to know who at JBL told him to use a non JBL kit? I can't believe it.

I would talk to JBL pro and tell them the story. Maybe they will give him a deal on new C8R2235 kits and he can put them in for you. Maybe JBL will do a re-cone job for you given he was "authorized" and messed up your speakers. I might be wary of doing any business with this guy again. He might purposely mess the work up. I would not be satisfied with some Frankenstein job that may fail a year or two down the road.

Good Luck.

pos
02-04-2011, 05:51 AM
If the guy called JBL and got the information that the replacement kit was NLA with no equivalent, then there is a problem at JBL... (well, we knew that already :()

Earl K
02-04-2011, 07:17 AM
Contact Gordon Waters and have him test your recones for their TS parameters .

You need these numbers to see if this reconer has provided a reasonable facsimile of the obsolete 136a or if they are just blowing smoke .

- If the numbers are more than 15% off / I would take the matter up with JBL Pro and then quite possibly Small Claims Court .

7 years ago Gordon was charging $20. per unit for testing / I have to imagine he's now charging more .

He's within the Atlanta Greater Area . He's not an authorized JBL reconer but he has my confidence and respect . He uses Leap/LMS for testing .

Here's some contact info from an old post ( don't know if this email address is still current ) ;



If one is interested in these, they should email ( gwaters@inbox.com (gwaters@inbox.com) ) or PM (GordonW) me... if shipping is desired, I would need an address to ship to, in order to calculate shipping cost. In alternative, these speakers are available for local audition and/or pick-up, in Marietta GA (Audio Atlanta, 19 Atlanta St, Marietta GA 30060, 770-499-0145).



<> EarlK

grumpy
02-04-2011, 08:35 AM
My offer still stands. If he can actually find true JBL parts that are the correct ones made for those speakers, when used in those speaker cabinets, I will have my JBL certified technician install them for free, meaning no additional charge, and I will refund the cost to him for the parts that we already used. I will not, however, do this with a substitute JBL recone kit, which as he now states, "will work".

I would say you have sufficient information to prove a JBL-prescribed substitute.

What remains bothersome (to me) is upon a close reading, the owner will only
be refunding the cost of the aftermarket parts, implying (again, -to me-), that
you would be out the difference between the aftermarket and JBL parts (which
may or may not be significant). It's only bothersome to me because they should
have known better.

If it's not clear by now, get everything in writing (parts and cost) if you decide to go back.

4313B
02-04-2011, 09:15 AM
I don't understand why MacGruber didn't use the correct kits...

While I'd be pretty pissed about it (especially that cheap looking interlocking foam gasket crap) at least there isn't any bubble gum or baling wire showing.

The TS parameters would need to be plugged into a simulator and compared to the 136/2231 or 2235. I'd personally have them redo them with the correct kits. They should know better... some people actually still do care about getting a job done right.

edgewound
02-04-2011, 09:20 AM
Guitarnie asked for JBL parts. JBL parts are available for the 136A. Wizard states in writing that JBL parts are not available and embellishes the story even futher...in writing, no less.

Seems like a pretty clear cut case to me.

guitarnie
02-04-2011, 09:42 AM
I am going to pursue having the T/S parameters of each driver established to refute the "exact spot-on match to the original equipment"

I am not going to just take it on the chin on this screw up.
I sent a e-mail to JBL parts department asking if they said the following.
jamie.dindial@harman.com (parts administrator)

"In this case, we contacted JBL and were told that they no longer make the part for these speakers, nor would they recommend another of their kits be installed in them, considering the model of cabinets that these speakers are being used in. They knew of this model of generic kit, and explained that it used the exact same edge wound voice coil, but that we would have to change the cone edge surround, from the accordion edge, to the rolled foam edge, and that then the kits would be an exact spot-on match to the original equipment."

Ruediger
02-04-2011, 10:16 AM
The reconer made a mistake, that is human. Shit happens. I think the work is well done, and the price is okay, considering the effort.

I suggest You let somebody measure the Thiele Small parameters, and You publish them here, together with the T/S parameters of the original drivers.

I can check various T/S alignments and can tell You for what the drivers are good. When You supply me with the data of Your cabinets, I can also tell You what You can do with these drivers in Your cabinets.

If the drivers are shit, I'll be the 1st one to say that.

Ruediger

ratitifb
02-05-2011, 04:10 AM
The reconer made a mistake, that is human. Shit happens. I think the work is well done, and the price is okay, considering the effort.

I suggest You let somebody measure the Thiele Small parameters, and You publish them here, together with the T/S parameters of the original drivers.

I can check various T/S alignments and can tell You for what the drivers are good. When You supply me with the data of Your cabinets, I can also tell You what You can do with these drivers in Your cabinets.

If the drivers are shit, I'll be the 1st one to say that.

Ruedigersame TS parameters is necessary but not always sufficient condition in order that two drivers sound the same. You can achieve the same TS parameters for a driver from different cone designs, for example mass ring vs aquaplased cone.

In addition you have to double check the behavior both at large excursions and at high VC temperature...

Ruediger
02-05-2011, 08:31 AM
... is necessary ... in order that two drivers *?*SOUND*?* the same ...

No, 'sound' is deviation from the ideal, and thus distortions. TS does not say anything about distortions.

Ruediger

ratitifb
02-05-2011, 10:34 AM
TS does not say anything about distortions.actually it's one of the reasons why i'm thinking TS measurements are very important but not sufficient to guaranty the sound quality of a driver (coloration, dynamic compression, impulse response, ...)

4313B
02-05-2011, 11:04 AM
Once you know the TS parameters you'll be able to tell if the frankendriver will stand a snowball's chance in hell of mating with the given enclosure/tuning. After that comes the real challenge, how does the driver perform over the intended bandwidth and will it mate with the given network. If the TS parameters are all whacked then the rest really doesn't matter.

It's easier just to get the damn things done right in the first place. Reconers probably think transducer engineers are overrated and can be second guessed but I beg to differ.

JBL has consistently designed and manufactured transducers which have stood above the vast field of mediocrity because they went the extra distance. JBL transducers get JBL recone kits. Period. The equation is just that simple. If some freelancer wants to play transducer engineer for a day make sure they do it on their dime. You have to keep in mind that alot of these guys can't hear the difference between an AM pocket radio and the London Symphony Orchestra live, all they care about is that a driver make some kind of noise and if it can do that then it's good to go.

guitarnie
02-05-2011, 11:32 AM
Amen!

ratitifb
02-05-2011, 01:44 PM
If the TS parameters are all whacked then the rest really doesn't matter. remember that TS parameters are small signal parameters and define the specified low frequency performance of the driver ...

At constant TS, are you thinking that material of the cone doesn't affect the sound ?

4313B
02-05-2011, 03:19 PM
are you thinkingI'm thinking that if the TS parameters are all wrong for the L300/4333 volume/tuning then the rest of it doesn't really matter.

material of the cone doesn't affect the sound ?It does.

ratitifb
02-05-2011, 03:26 PM
we agree and it's more clear now ;)

Wagner
02-05-2011, 05:01 PM
Response from the owner to the BBB complaint

On February 02, 2011, the business provided the following information:
To Whom It may concern.

I am the owner of Wizard Electronics and I personally spoke with this customer. We think that he is being completely unreasonable and I will try my best to shed some light as to why we think this way.

As a JBL authorized Service Center, we are not allowed to use generic parts to make repairs, unless the JBL factory no longer manufactures' a specific replacement part, and also only when they consider that there is no other part that they make that is a viable substitute.

In this case, we contacted JBL and were told that they no longer make the part for these speakers, nor would they recommend another of their kits be installed in them, considering the model of cabinets that these speakers are being used in. They knew of this model of generic kit, and explained that it used the exact same edge wound voice coil, but that we would have to change the cone edge surround, from the accordion edge, to the rolled foam edge, and that then the kits would be an exact spot-on match to the original equipment.

Nowhere in our records did it say that the customer would not accept anything other than JBL original parts. If he had stated this, it would have been noted on his work order. Also, we feel that he had a responsibility, to himself, to review his work order, before he left his speakers in our care, to insure that it represented correctly the service he was requesting, and that it including any specific parameters.

He now states after the fact, that he knew the parts were no longer manufactured, but that another company on the west coast has some of the old parts in stock. We were not informed of any of this, at the time he dropped off his equipment. Had he, we would have contacted this company to see if they were willing to sell us, or him, the parts.

As I mentioned, earlier, we are an authorized JBL Service Center, and so we are obliged to follow their instructions, and those did not include any Internet research, or calling all over the country to see if anyone else had some of the original JBL parts still in stock.

We provided him with something that looks the same, sounds the same, and is built to JBL specifications exactly replicating the original parts.

Furthermore, his comment about us blatantly ripping him off is absurd. He did not request to be provided with an estimate, nor did he ask about our pricing. He simply dropped these speakers off with the statement, "Re-Cone And Restore".

When he came in to pick up his speakers, we were honest about everything. If we were deceitful people, trying to scam Mr. Speer, we could have lied, and he would have probably never known the difference, but we wouldn't do that. Again, we are honest people, and have been providing an honest service here for 37 years.

I told Mr. Speer that if he really believed that he could find the original parts, (recone kits), get them, and I would then remove the parts we had so beautifully installed, and that I would install the JBL parts for free, plus I would refund the cost of the parts that we did use. He then told us, never mind, just let me have my speakers, we did, and he left.

My offer still stands. If he can actually find true JBL parts that are the correct ones made for those speakers, when used in those speaker cabinets, I will have my JBL certified technician install them for free, meaning no additional charge, and I will refund the cost to him for the parts that we already used. I will not, however, do this with a substitute JBL recone kit, which as he now states, "will work". If he was willing to go that route, and accept a substitute JBL part, why didn't he say so when he dropped these off with us for repair?

I feel that this customer knew these parts were no longer available, and after dropping off his speakers for repair, he discovered someone who claims to have the original parts in stock, he has buyer's remorse, and is either turning to you as a means to leverage against his failure to make sure his work order correctly stated what he wanted, or he is trying to use your leverage to gain a resolution that satisfies his change of mind, after the fact.

I am very sorry for all of this, but feel that the work we performed was correct, fair, and as communicated to us by the documentation created at the time he left his speakers with us for repair.

His coming into our lobby, raising his voice to the level of yelling, with analogies as to how this is like restoring old cars, and claiming specifics about the work request and previous communication that is clearly not on the work order, comes after the fact, and cannot be honored.

My offer still stands.

I don't know what more you could want this guy to do?
As others have pointed out, the work looks good, just not done with genuine JBL parts.
He made no effort to deceive you.
His position, which reads as if he's going to insist on the original cone kit # which is NLA is/would be mildly irritating because he knows you probably can't supply one.............still
The JBL SUBSTITUTE # is going to be "slightly different" by JBL's own admission, even though it is a "genuine" part. Six of one, half a dozen of the other. Really no way to know with any certainty (practically speaking, before you guys pile on me for that one) which one would sound/perform better in your specific system/boxes. JBL is saying in a roundabout way "use this, it's close enough", just like the Wizard. The Wizard is getting close to one of your points as well (if you really made it) "it's just like restoring a car". Well I've done a few and the time spent locating obsolete NLA parts is billed to the customer just like labor hours spent actually working on the car.

Bottom line, you are unhappy with the work and upset that they didn't "hear" what you were saying.
The guy has offered you a remedy that will make you whole, at no cost to you, aside from any difference in parts prices.

So I ask, what's the big deal? So this place does not cater to the connoisseur/collector with it's philosophy towards older transducers. If you have been lurking here as you say, then you'd know that there are JBL technicians and shops that do. They are members here. If and when commissioning work of this sort and desiring the most fastidious attention to detail possible to make you happy, YOU should have asked to speak with the proprietor and not just some counter person that you do a good job of subtly inferring was just short of a "doooood" type based on your first impression.

Hindsight is always 20/20. People here are pumping you up to believe that you are the victim of some grave injustice. Making absolute statements about what should and should not have been done.

My absolute statement is this: YOU should have done YOUR homework BEFORE YOU commissioned this work, and made it absolutely CLEAR to someone in a position of authority what it was that YOU expected for your money, AND GOTTEN IT IN WRITING! People that watch "Judge Judy" know this. The guy says you like the car analogies, so it's like asking your garage "will that be done with O.E. parts or after market?" and getting it on the ESTIMATE and the FINAL INVOICE.

You can't blame this fiasco on anyone but yourself.

I am truly sorry that this happened to you, similar has happened to me too. I learned from it, benefited from it, knew better next time (knew how to conduct the business) and moved on. YOU'VE got to take the bull by the horns in this life friend.

Going on "faith" with stuff like this with folks you've never laid eyes on before? I don't think so.

Hope you get it resolved to your satisfaction.

Thomas

4313B
02-05-2011, 05:21 PM
The problem in this specific instance is that everyone who is anyone knows that the C8R2235 is the replacement kit for the 136A, 136H, 2231A, 2231H, and 2235H. It's been that way since 1980...

I guess this is one of those moments where legacy knowledge comes in handy... I guess they can't export EVERYTHING to India or China...


So I ask, what's the big deal? So this place does not cater to the connoisseur/collector with it's philosophy towards older transducers.I get the impression that alot of places are like that anymore. To some it's a big deal, to others it's no big deal.

The short answer though is that the value of this particular pair of L300's may very well have been compromised for no good reason. If you call JBL Pro tomorrow and they say they are out of C8R2235 kits until the day after forever then the whining about kits not being available holds water. Otherwise, just order the kits from Pro and get it done.

Wagner
02-05-2011, 05:29 PM
The problem in this specific instance is that everyone who is anyone knows that the C8R2235 is the replacement kit for the 136A, 136H, 2231A, 2231H, and 2235H. It's been that way since 1980...

I guess this is one of those moments where legacy knowledge comes in handy... I guess they can't export EVERYTHING to India or China...

All the more reason to ask questions first, get things in writing and don't just take the shit being handed out now days in this new digital age, huh? ;)

Thomas

SEAWOLF97
02-05-2011, 05:30 PM
I don't know what more you could want this guy to do?
As others have pointed out, the work looks good, just not done with genuine JBL parts.
He made no effort to deceive you.
His position, which reads as if he's going to insist on the original cone kit # which is NLA is/would be mildly irritating because he knows you probably can't supply one.............still
The JBL SUBSTITUTE # is going to be "slightly different" by JBL's own admission, even though it is a "genuine" part. Six of one, half a dozen of the other. Really no way to know with any certainty (practically speaking, before you guys pile on me for that one) which one would sound/perform better in your specific system/boxes. JBL is saying in a roundabout way "use this, it's close enough", just like the Wizard. The Wizard is getting close to one of your points as well (if you really made it) "it's just like restoring a car". Well I've done a few and the time spent locating obsolete NLA parts is billed to the customer just like labor hours spent actually working on the car.

Bottom line, you are unhappy with the work and upset that they didn't "hear" what you were saying.
The guy has offered you a remedy that will make you whole, at no cost to you, aside from any difference in parts prices.

So I ask, what's the big deal? So this place does not cater to the connoisseur/collector with it's philosophy towards older transducers. If you have been lurking here as you say, then you'd know that there are JBL technicians and shops that do. They are members here. If and when commissioning work of this sort and desiring the most fastidious attention to detail possible to make you happy, YOU should have asked to speak with the proprietor and not just some counter person that you do a good job of subtly inferring was just short of a "doooood" type based on your first impression.

Hindsight is always 20/20. People here are pumping you up to believe that you are the victim of some grave injustice. Making absolute statements about what should and should not have been done.

My absolute statement is this: YOU should have done YOUR homework BEFORE YOU commissioned this work, and made it absolutely CLEAR to someone in a position of authority what it was that YOU expected for your money, AND GOTTEN IT IN WRITING! People that watch "Judge Judy" know this. The guy says you like the car analogies, so it's like asking your garage "will that be done with O.E. parts or after market?" and getting it on the ESTIMATE and the FINAL INVOICE.

You can't blame this fiasco on anyone but yourself.

I am truly sorry that this happened to you, similar has happened to me too. I learned from it, benefited from it, knew better next time (knew how to conduct the business) and moved on. YOU'VE got to take the bull by the horns in this life friend.

Going on "faith" with stuff like this with folks you've never laid eyes on before? I don't think so.

Hope you get it resolved to your satisfaction.

Thomas

Contrary to the herd , I agree with most of what you said here, Thomas .......I think the OP had a large hand in the problem and while the store isnt 100% blameless (they should have had you initial the work order that you understood that non OEM parts were being used) ...I think the owners position is quite fair.

Have you had a chance to actually check out the function of the drivers or just went straight to "ballistic" ?

4313B
02-05-2011, 05:42 PM
All the more reason to ask questions first, get things in writing and don't just take the shit being handed out now days in this new digital age, huh? ;)

ThomasYep.

they should have had you initial the work order that you understood that non OEM parts were being usedDefinitely.

Wagner
02-05-2011, 05:47 PM
Yep.
Definitely.

Most grown ups know how these things work. At least us "old school" dumb ass "boomers". :p
WAIT!
Maybe we can come up with an app for situations like this. ;)

Thomas

guitarnie
02-05-2011, 05:50 PM
I already admitted I was naive for thinking this company, a representative of JBL would do as I asked. To recone with JBL parts only. I did my homework, I talked to Orange County and numerous other companies.
I choose to keep them local to avoid any shipping damages and this company was in business while you could still buy L300's brand new off of the shelf.
I screwed up right off the bat when the counter guy put on the invoice "D 136A", I asked if that should be changed, "It's no big deal".
Yes, I should have specified exact part numbers and exact price on the invoice(s). I should have had "JBL parts or nothing" on the invoice.
I guess I should have also provided them with step by step JBL protocol on the entire procedure.
I should have brought my attorney to review all paper work as well.
It's my fault for believing that people will do what they say they will do.

edgewound
02-05-2011, 05:55 PM
I already admitted I was naive for thinking this company, a representative of JBL would do as I asked. To recone with JBL parts only. I did my homework, I talked to Orange County and numerous other companies.
I choose to keep them local to avoid any shipping damages and this company was in business while you could still buy L300's brand new off of the shelf.
I screwed up right off the bat when the counter guy put on the invoice "D 136A", I asked if that should be changed, "It's no big deal".
Yes, I should have specified exact part numbers and exact price on the invoice(s). I should have had "JBL parts or nothing" on the invoice.
I guess I should have also provided them with step by step JBL protocol on the entire procedure.
I should have brought my attorney to review all paper work as well.
It's my fault for believing that people will do what they say they will do.

If you order an apple when apples are available, you shouldn't expect an orange and accept it.

Wagner
02-05-2011, 06:07 PM
I already admitted I was naive for thinking this company, a representative of JBL would do as I asked. To recone with JBL parts only. I did my homework, I talked to Orange County and numerous other companies.
I choose to keep them local to avoid any shipping damages and this company was in business while you could still buy L300's brand new off of the shelf.
I screwed up right off the bat when the counter guy put on the invoice "D 136A", I asked if that should be changed, "It's no big deal".
Yes, I should have specified exact part numbers and exact price on the invoice(s). I should have had "JBL parts or nothing" on the invoice.
I guess I should have also provided them with step by step JBL protocol on the entire procedure.
I should have brought my attorney to review all paper work as well.
It's my fault for believing that people will do what they say they will do.

It's real simple dude.
When subcontracting ANYTHING in this world get a copy of the repair order when written. Read it before YOU sign it, and only sign it if it states exactly what YOU want done. Not the Wizard and not the dude at the counter. YOU.
It's called a paper trail.
If a business can't or won't provide that, then do business with someone else. It's one of the truly beautiful things about America.
Then if you do have a problem with the work done, and everyone does from time to time, you have a leg to stand on, a position of strength, LEGAL RECOURSE.

Otherwise, all you can do if things go bad is whimper philosophically about what OTHERS SHOULD HAVE DONE and try to rationalize away the fact that you failed at conducting a simple business transaction.

This experience (and newly acquired cynicism) will prove invaluable, I promise. It will serve you well, well beyond $400 bucks.

What secret agenda could the Wizard possibly have? To make you unhappy?

Be a man and take ownership of your own actions, or lack thereof, and learn something. You're the one that chose to use this guy for whatever the reasons, with alternatives to the Wizard, enjoying pristine and thoroughly documented reputations complete with testimonials, right here on this forum; live with it.

I'm really growing tired of all the victims nowadays.

Thomas

SEAWOLF97
02-05-2011, 06:12 PM
It's my fault for believing that people will do what they say they will do.

If you had lots of prior experience with that company to fall back on..well mebbe ....being "factory authorized" does not guarantee perfection ...."trust, but verify" and get everything in writing seems a prudent course (in an unknown store) ....

My repair guy (who is a pro - but not factory authorized on much) will provide a free estimate , then call you once an evaluation is made , explain what he has found and wait for a "GO" or "NO GO" from you ....I trust him.

And Mr. Widget can verify that statement.



Most grown ups know how these things work. At least us "old school" dumb ass "boomers". :p
WAIT!
Maybe we can come up with an app for situations like this. ;)

Thomas

:applaud::applaud::applaud::applaud:


All that said, I do understand how that "in your hour of joy and anticipation" of getting these speakers up & going , that excitement may have impeded clear logical thought.

JeffW
02-05-2011, 06:16 PM
It was an expensive lesson, for sure. I'm not going to join in any dogpile saying you did anything wrong, it's just that when dealing with these drivers -some of which the original kits are NLA- you just have to be extra dang certain. Aside from getting something in writing, customer feedback and stuff like that come into play.

There are guys on here who have gotten (what I consider) crap jobs from Orange County with the foam glued to the front of the cone. And they were told they needed to put it in writing that they wanted the foam on the back. So even a recognized name place can still do substandard work. Personally, I'd never send drivers to OCS for a re-cone based on that customer feedback.

So what to do? Based on numerous glowing feedbacks posted here, I sent a pair of 18" 2245s to Edgewound, Upland Loudspeaker in California. Cost me nearly $100 each speaker just in roundtrip shipping (plus the cost of the kits...Ken's labor was the lowest portion of any part of the bill), and I had to make my own wood reinforced shipping box - did them one at a time to keep from trying to ship 2 drivers that size at once.

But they have genuine JBL cones, the work is exemplary, and my lawyer missed out on the entire action.

I feel your pain on your job. OTOH, 2235s are still out there. I'd just keep an eye peeled for a clean pair and go that route, myself...listening to the FrankenWoofers in the meantime.

Edit: I see Edgewound has responded since I started writing this reply. He's not just a "JBL Authorized Repair" facility, he's also an enthusiast who dang sure would have known about the 136 recone situation from heart, not just looking it up on a chart.

guitarnie
02-05-2011, 07:03 PM
These L300's are the nicest speakers I have ever owned. I have blown more speakers than I care to admit. I have been in the CE industry for well over 30 years. I own my own business, I watch Judge Judy. I know what a paper trail is.
I am a dumb ass for thinking that this would be a simple (not rocket surgery) transaction. I don't feel like a victim, I feel sick to my stomach that I did not have proper documentation to avoid all of this.
I just wanted to drink a $15 six pack of beer and listen to some vinyl (Zappa) on my L300's.
I have been waiting for over four months for that to happen.

Wagner
02-05-2011, 07:11 PM
These L300's are the nicest speakers I have ever owned. I have blown more speakers than I care to admit. I have been in the CE industry for well over 30 years. I own my own business, I watch Judge Judy. I know what a paper trail is.
I am a dumb ass for thinking that this would be a simple (not rocket surgery) transaction. I don't feel like a victim, I feel sick to my stomach that I did not have proper documentation to avoid all of this.
I just wanted to drink a $15 six pack of beer and listen to some vinyl (Zappa) on my L300's.
I have been waiting for over four months for that to happen.

Nothing stopping you there.

Sorry for your grief.

Thomas

ratitifb
02-06-2011, 02:30 AM
I just wanted to drink a $15 six pack of beer and listen to some vinyl (Zappa) on my L300's.oh ya play Mr Zappa by drinking all that beers and let us know if your can hear any difference after :cheers:

cooky1257
02-06-2011, 04:05 AM
Kicking the guy who has come out of this short is BS.

He followed the advice given ad infinitum on here to only use a JBL approved service centre.
As previously noted everyone who knows the 136A KNOWS replacement cone kit is the 2235-including the Service Centre-even the doood would need to look at the 'goes into' list.
He didn't say 'fix em up how you see fit' when he handed them over.
If they couldn't source the CORRECT 2235 replacement kit they should have contacted him with a 'go, no go' request.

The job looks cosmetically ok, neat tidy and not worth a lot.

He should source some proper kits and use one of the guys on here.

ratitifb
02-06-2011, 04:46 AM
Kicking the guy who has come out of this short is BS.u're probably right but is the thing so important in our life :banghead: Please read at the second order, actually i've myself loved hearing Zappa by drinking some beers in the past :p

Earl K
02-06-2011, 05:00 AM
With apologies to Gordon ;




When I can take an aftermarket kit (say, 2235H) and TEST the resultant speaker on LEAP/LMS, and have all the parameters come to WITHIN FIVE PERCENT of factory specs, I'll go on a limb and say that the aftermarket kits are good enough, if the CORRECT combination of parts are built up in the PROPER manner.


In fact, I had MORE parameter variation in FACTORY RECONED 2235s, 127Hs, 128Hs, 122As and others, than with a properly-assembled aftermarket kit. Like up to TEN PERCENT variation in parameters. Sure, this is "acceptable" to pretty much any driver supplier out there... but it certainly doesn't lend itself to the "factory only, nobody else" mantra, in any realistic sense. Also, the variations in upper-frequency response curves is AS GREAT in the factory kits (and original OEM drivers) as with the aftermarket (again, properly assembled) units.

I'm getting pretty tired of all reconers that use aftermarket parts, being all lumped into the same "incompetent" box, by some people. When you have to FIX the SCREW UPS of the SO CALLED FACTORY AUTHORIZED reconer in your area, you start to get a different perspective, altogether...


In short... enough of this, already. :banghead:

Regards,
Gordon.



- The truth here will eventually come out / but only after comprehensive measurements of the T/S parameters have been made for these 2 woofers .
- The T/S stats will confirm ( or not ) this reconers' competency at custom building recones .

- If the T/S parameters are way off of spec. / then this "authorized JBL repair center" has misrepresented their work and committed fraud / from my POV .

:)

ps ; the included quote is from this older thread . (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?17856-eBay-Aftermarket-Recone-kits-caveat.&p=190313&viewfull=1#post190313)

guitarnie
02-06-2011, 07:21 AM
oh ya play Mr Zappa by drinking all that beers and let us know if your can hear any difference after :cheers:

What does that mean? I wasn't planning on analyzing the speakers during consumption. I simply wanted to relax and enjoy them.

P.S I am 6'5" and 265 pounds, a six pack is not going to make me sloppy.

ratitifb
02-06-2011, 09:28 AM
What does that mean? I wasn't planning on analyzing the speakers during consumption. I simply wanted to relax and enjoy them.

P.S I am 6'5" and 265 pounds, a six pack is not going to make me sloppy.apologize if i have offended you it wasn't the goal, but only a joke to read at the second order :crying:

toddalin
02-06-2011, 10:43 AM
There are guys on here who have gotten (what I consider) crap jobs from Orange County with the foam glued to the front of the cone. And they were told they needed to put it in writing that they wanted the foam on the back. So even a recognized name place can still do substandard work. Personally, I'd never send drivers to OCS for a re-cone based on that customer feedback.



OCS has not put the foams on the wrong sides in many, many years, and never did if you had it in writting as to what side you wanted them on.

OCS is a supporting member of the Lansing Heritage site and has always done most excellent work with respect to recones and refoams for me.

After recharging three AlNiCo magnets for me, their strength came into question over a year later and they re-charged them again at no additional monitary charge.

I would not hesitate to recommend them to anyone.

rusty jefferson
02-06-2011, 02:12 PM
Tough situation for all involved. I think cooler heads should overcome the obstacles.

The reconer's job as a "JBL Pro" service company is to be professional.

Guitarnie's job is to take some of the responsibility, stay calm and treat the reconer with respect. Mistakes happen. Nobody got hurt.

I would make an appointment to go in and see them, shake hands and be civil. Have them order the 2235H kits, and pay the difference. Thank them for replacing the aftermarket cones at no extra cost, and chalk it up.

The weakness in our economy has changed the behavior of many businesses. Some are trying to deliver exemplary service, and some have had to cut qualified personnel. I know at my small company, we are bending over backwards to attract, and keep customers. Avoiding mistakes and rework (warranty) through good communication, is key.

Just my 2 cents.

JeffW
02-06-2011, 02:43 PM
OCS has not put the foams on the wrong sides in many, many years,

Yet I was under the impression that JBL never put the surrounds on the front.


and never did if you had it in writting as to what side you wanted them on.

And that's the crux of the matter: A top-rate reconer should know what side JBL put the surrounds on without having it in writing. And I'm not talking about special cases like a Lansaloy surround being replaced with a foam surround on the front.

Using Edgewound as an example again- It never even occurred to me to put it in writing that I wanted the surrounds on the back, and I bet it never occurred to him to put them on the front.


OCS is a supporting member of the Lansing Heritage site and has always done most excellent work with respect to recones and refoams for me.

And I have given them a shout-out here by name on their sale on the TruExtent Be diaphragms. I have no beef with them as a company, but I'm personally uncomfortable having them do any surrounds or recones when, for basically identical shipping costs, there is a shop out there that I know I can trust without getting anything in writing.


After recharging three AlNiCo magnets for me, their strength came into question over a year later and they re-charged them again at no additional monitary charge.

I would not hesitate to recommend them to anyone.

That's fine by me. I've found a place I trust, you've found a place you trust.

And FWIW, I just got a shipping confirmation on a pair of the TruExtent phragms that I bought on sale and have been on backorder since.

SEAWOLF97
02-06-2011, 03:15 PM
Yet I was under the impression that JBL never put the surrounds on the front.

not to be disagreeable, but they have....many of the auto drivers are that way and some of the lower end ones are ....but you are right, we are talking about 60s/70/80s vintage speakers here and OCS had plenty of time to study JBL's ways.

cannot understand why many think the front is easier..the backside is more precise and centers better.... I get questions on the foams I sell and always tell them to follow the way the manufacturer did it , they knew what they were doing .... is some schmuck going to improve on the factory method ?

Our local Portland reconer ALWAYS cut out the dust caps and shimms the gap ...ruined some of my L26 10 inchers inverted caps ... said "convex doesnt affect sound" ..never used them again.

guitarnie
02-06-2011, 09:48 PM
Wizards response to the BBB was not the same as they (the owner) offered me. He (the owner) demanded a full refund to me after I wire tied the drivers face to face for transport.
He grabbed the the drivers (with one hand and slammed them on a metal cart) and disappeared.
I then said "just give me my speakers", They had ABSOLUTELY no respect for the pristine condition of the wrinkle paint or my desire for these drivers to be as close to original what so ever!
I reiterated via phone numerous times and in person " I am using you for authentic 100% JBL parts only".
So Yes it it is my fault for not having in writing USE ONLY C8R2235 ONLY!

I have a wholesale account with Peachstate Audio the only other "authorized" company that JBL has listed for Georgia. They do not do "Consumer audio Recones"

Note the "JBL Professional D-136a " I swear to GOD I asked if the the "D" was a issue. The "Professional" is key that the C8R2235 is only available to "pro dealers" or am I am I wrong?

The final invoice has the the "D" deleted

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n255/guitarnie/wiz32.jpghttp://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n255/guitarnie/wiz33.jpg

guitarnie
02-06-2011, 10:37 PM
apologize if i have offended you it wasn't the goal, but only a joke to read at the second order :crying:
Thanks for the apology, I thought you were being snooty for my drinking beer and listening to Zappa "American Trash"
And not drinking a Gewurztraminer while listening to Jazz at the Pawn Shop

jbl
02-08-2011, 11:24 AM
Wizards response to the BBB was not the same as they (the owner) offered me. He (the owner) demanded a full refund to me after I wire tied the drivers face to face for transport.
He grabbed the the drivers (with one hand and slammed them on a metal cart) and disappeared.
I then said "just give me my speakers", They had ABSOLUTELY no respect for the pristine condition of the wrinkle paint or my desire for these drivers to be as close to original what so ever!
I reiterated via phone numerous times and in person " I am using you for authentic 100% JBL parts only".
So Yes it it is my fault for not having in writing USE ONLY C8R2235 ONLY!

I have a wholesale account with Peachstate Audio the only other "authorized" company that JBL has listed for Georgia. They do not do "Consumer audio Recones"

Note the "JBL Professional D-136a " I swear to GOD I asked if the the "D" was a issue. The "Professional" is key that the C8R2235 is only available to "pro dealers" or am I am I wrong?

The final invoice has the the "D" deleted



http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n255/guitarnie/wiz32.jpghttp://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n255/guitarnie/wiz33.jpg

Sorry to read about your 136 issue. I can't comment on your transaction with Wizard Electronics since I wasn't there. However, after reading this thread I do have a few observations on your handling of this matter.
IMO, you made a very big mistake contacting the BBB. Your first move should have been to deal directly with the owner of WE. If you didn't get the answer(s) that you were looking for here, the next step would be to get JBL involved.
Going to the BBB created a very hostile environment. Dealing with JBL most likely would have resulted in WE installing the 2235 kit for you. The additional cost, if any would have been the difference between the after market kit and the JBL. You would have been at the same $ point as if the 136 was reconed with the 2235 kit.
Hope this matter is resolved to your satisfaction.

guitarnie
02-10-2011, 01:53 AM
I did deal with the owner or Wizard Elecronics, I got no where other than getting almost thrown out . The BBB was my conduit, resolve the issue no harm done. It's not like during the seven weeks they had the the speakers I "decided" I wanted JBL kits. I went to these fu?Kballs because the are AUTHORIZED JBL dealers.
That is the only reason why I went there, I spoke Audio Lab of GA. They could do the recone , but non-JBL, so I did not take them there. I wish I would have, way better people running that show and half of the price!
JBL/Harmon are referring me to other dealers to start from scratch. Wow, thanks!
Anybody want some L300's cheap?

doodle6
02-10-2011, 08:31 AM
When I was about 15 years old, 1961, my parents took me and my sister on an extended vacation across northern Africa, the Middle East, and Europe. On our way out of Luxor for Cairo, we arrived at the Luxor airport to board a flight to Cairo. At the ticket counter was an American businessman. He was in the process of berating the ticket clerk in a loud and obnoxious voice, telling the clerk what a big shot he was and how critically important it was that he get to Cairo that afternoon. We listened quietly behind him and learned that the flight had been canceled because of a dust storm north of Luxor. This was in the days of passenger service on radial engined DC-3 aircraft. My dad turned us around and started herding us out of the airport. "Where are we going? Aren't you going to do anything about this, David? We have a flight out of Cairo in the morning," asked my mother. "Listen. I can wait my turn, then yell and holler at the ticket agent, jump up and down until I'm purple in the face, but no matter what I do, THEY'RE NOT GONNA FLY. So there's no point in wasting our time with that. We'll just figure out something else." So we went back to the hotel, searched for alternatives, discovered that there was a local train running up the Nile that evening. We booked a Pullman compartment on it and then spent the extra time exploring more of Luxor. When we got to the station that evening, it turned out that the train was composed of old wooden passenger cars, the stuff we used to see on "The Wild, Wild West" TV show. It was pulled by an old steam locomotive, and it stopped everywhere they had chickens, about every 15 miles or so. People rode the roof, climbed off and on the train with livestock, hawked food and souvenirs through the open windows and so on. It took all night, but we made it to Cairo and connected with the flight out just fine. To this day, that train ride is one of my most favorite travel memories. The lesson is twofold: one, no matter how aggravating it might be when we don't get what we want, it doesn't do any good to let our frustration drive us to childish behavior. Missing auto parts that we ordered don't suddenly materialize out of thin air when we start to berate a sales clerk - damaged goods don't miraculously become whole when we raise our voices - hotel rooms don't suddenly become vacant for us when we make threats. And secondly, the main thing that intemperate behavior causes is hard feelings, on the part of both parties. So the obvious question arises: If that sort of behavior doesn't get positive results AND ruins everyone's day, why on earth engage in it? Life is waaaay too short, and there are always better alternatives, even if one of them turns out to be simply learning to avoid a particular person, business or situation.

None of this is intended to criticize guitarme's wishes or defend WE. Seems to me that they should have an established protocol of falling back on the 2235 re-cone in the situation that they were in, and that part of that protocol should be to telephone the customer to inform them of that fallback. But the whole escalation of this situation to the point it reached could easily have been avoided and a mutually satisfactory outcome accomplished through courteous and respectful handling at the get go. I don't see a whole lot of positive results coming from an adversarial approach. But then, I'm an old red neck country guy who learned early on that it's important to maintain the peace when you live in a small community.

1audiohack
02-10-2011, 09:06 AM
I'm with you doodle6. Nice story by the way.

I went through a very similar experience with a "Crown Authorized Service Center" here in Vegas. So I understand your frustration.

It's been 40 days now. If those 136's were mine they would have been redone correctly somewhere and making music by now and all the anger would be a fading memory. I don't know I guess I'm just weird.

4313B
02-10-2011, 09:25 AM
It's been 40 days now. If those 136's were mine they would have been redone correctly somewhere and making music by now and all the anger would be a fading memory.Yep...

guitarnie
02-14-2011, 08:20 PM
I'm with you doodle6. Nice story by the way.

I went through a very similar experience with a "Crown Authorized Service Center" here in Vegas. So I understand your frustration.

It's been 40 days now. If those 136's were mine they would have been redone correctly somewhere and making music by now and all the anger would be a fading memory. I don't know I guess I'm just weird.

It's really only been two weeks since I picked them up, I am self employed and throwing $475 + shipping on top of the $438 I already spent just isn't feasible right now.
I know that the owner of WE stated that I was screaming and on the verge of being booted out of the store.
That is just not true, I am a big guy and I have a LOUD voice, I never once said one derogatory thing about anybody there, I never used one ounce of profanity.
I actually apologized for saying that they used "K Mart" kits, I told the the technician that he did a good job.
The day I brought the speakers in, they had a customer screaming at a female employee over a POS S.S. Crate guitar amp. This guy was way out of control, I confronted the customer and told him he was out of line. I was on their side.
It was the "counter dude's" birthday, he came around from the counter and shook my hand and thanked me for "making his B Day". I felt confident I was going to get good service.
JBL HARMON is requesting all paperwork regarding this repair, so maybe something good may work out.
I want to mount them and listen but... should I even try to like them? What are the odds they may sound good?
Thanks everybody
Arnie

clmrt
02-15-2011, 04:46 AM
Mount them and listen.

Collector's value may be shot in the ass, but listening value might be there.

4345
02-15-2011, 05:36 AM
I wouldn't bother listening. I am sure they can not sound perfect, which is what you paid for. Let JBL stand behind their authorized repair center and at no cost repair them for you properly. Send them direct to JBL, if they still repair them in Northridge.

Why keep a sub par repair job. Who knows when their glue job will come undone or when the voice coil will rub etc. This is a Frankenstein re-cone.

JBL has plenty of dough. Why should they care in Northridge about the cost of your little repair job. I am sure all the execs are flying business class and staying at 5 star hotels and eating at Morton's for dinner on the company money.

So, you get your repair free and they keep living like kings. Let's just not tell the shareholders. It's all other peoples money anyway.

Maron Horonzakz
02-15-2011, 07:28 AM
4345,,,You sound like a socialist,,

4345
02-15-2011, 07:30 AM
No, a sarcastic conservative.




4345,,,You sound like a socialist,,

guitarnie
02-15-2011, 06:20 PM
Well JBL is on track with me, just to clarify, this nightmare has nothing to do with Wizards in Kansas.
I have an official statement from JBL/Harmon consumer;

"I can tell you for sure that these comments were not made by JBL consumer. I am the only one who does service center tech support for JBL consumer. I’ve never spoken with anyone at Wizards in Atlanta regarding this repair and my knowledge of pro or generic transducers is not deep enough to offer an implied suggestion like this."

"In this case, we contacted JBL and were told that they no longer make the part for these speakers, nor would they recommend another of their kits be installed in them, considering the model of cabinets that these speakers are being used in. They knew of this model of generic kit, and explained that it used the exact same edge wound voice coil, but that we would have to change the cone edge surround, from the accordion edge, to the rolled foam edge, and that then the kits would be an exact spot-on match to the original equipment. "

guitarnie
02-15-2011, 06:36 PM
I wouldn't bother listening. I am sure they can not sound perfect, which is what you paid for. Let JBL stand behind their authorized repair center and at no cost repair them for you properly. Send them direct to JBL, if they still repair them in Northridge.

Why keep a sub par repair job. Who knows when their glue job will come undone or when the voice coil will rub etc. This is a Frankenstein re-cone.

JBL has plenty of dough. Why should they care in Northridge about the cost of your little repair job. I am sure all the execs are flying business class and staying at 5 star hotels and eating at Morton's for dinner on the company money.

So, you get your repair free and they keep living like kings. Let's just not tell the shareholders. It's all other peoples money anyway.
I had a crappy day but that is funny as hell and I am smiling!
Hopefully PRO will refute the whole BS lie that Wizard Electronics in Atlanta has told to the BBB.
Consumer is on record stating that they are lying and the speakers are clearly marked on the invoice as JBL PRO.

Also a little tidbit from the horse's mouth;

I spoke with someone over at JBL Pro and they said they are currently out of cone kits (C8R2235), but it looks like they will be getting more in shortly. They also mentioned that consumer has an order placed for some too. So it looks like we (JBL consumer) and JBL Pro will stock these kits in the near futurehttp://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n255/guitarnie/wiz33.jpg
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n255/guitarnie/wiz32.jpg

tarior
02-16-2011, 12:01 AM
I just wanted to pipe in here. I have a shop in Kelso, WA where I repair electronics and loudspeakers including reconing. When I recone a speaker with aftermarket parts, even an expert would have a difficult time finding the difference between my work and original. It is because I actually care enough to assemble my own kits from available parts and not rely on the aftermarket supplier's idea of what is "good enough". However, if a customer insists on original JBL kits, I can and will source and install them if the customer is willing to pay the difference. Heck, I even sprung the $$ for factory kits for a pair of 2235s to install in my own L300s. Even a non-authorized reconer such as myself knows that the recommended kit for the 136A is C8R2235.

If you bring a 125A/127A to me for repair, it will come back with the proper concave dustcap. There is really no excuse for doing it any other way.

BTW, I have applied to become a JBL authorized service provider. They basically said that they aren't interested in having a service center in this area. The nearest one I know of is in Seattle, 120 miles away. Way to go JBL.:crying:

Wagner
02-16-2011, 02:02 PM
I had a crappy day but that is funny as hell and I am smiling!
Hopefully PRO will refute the whole BS lie that Wizard Electronics in Atlanta has told to the BBB.
Consumer is on record stating that they are lying and the speakers are clearly marked on the invoice as JBL PRO.

Also a little tidbit from the horse's mouth;

I spoke with someone over at JBL Pro and they said they are currently out of cone kits (C8R2235), but it looks like they will be getting more in shortly. They also mentioned that consumer has an order placed for some too. So it looks like we (JBL consumer) and JBL Pro will stock these kits in the near futurehttp://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n255/guitarnie/wiz33.jpg
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n255/guitarnie/wiz32.jpg

This thread is F'in ridiculous!

Have you even enjoyed listening to them yet?

This is all in your head you know. (no offense to the measurement guys and the technically inclined).

You are obsessing on something you'd have never known the difference on if things had played out a little differently......................

....................like if the Wizard WAS dishonest.

JBL U. S. A. AIN'T gonna help you. It's OVER.

Enjoy your speakers.

Thomas

Wagner
02-16-2011, 02:08 PM
4345,,,You sound like a socialist,,

I was thinking idiot :dont-know:

Thomas

Oldmics
02-16-2011, 02:41 PM
The issue was briefly addressed in post #59.

Back when JBL was actually two different REAL divisions,two franchises of Service Centers were availiable.

Consumer parts availiability and Pro parts availiability.

I have spoken to Jamie who is in the Consumer Division (whats left of it ).

The information imparted by Jamie was correct in the offering that the original kit was no longer availiable.

However,had Jamie explored a bit futher,discovered that there is an updated replacement kit and given the current replacement kit option to the Service Center,all would have been well.

I believe that the Service Center who did the repairs only has availiability of Consumer parts and not the benifit or resources of the Pro division.

Its a bad decision to recone anything with generic parts without the customer being aware of the situation and I fault the Service Center for bad business practices on that regard.

I say "lump up" and listen to them.If you do decide to redo them down the road with the O.E.M. kits then use a better Service Center. (LIKE ME :bouncy: )

Sorry - Shamless Plug Here.

Oldmics

cooky1257
02-16-2011, 03:00 PM
So it's come to this?
From the finest loudspeaker manufacturer in the world?
How many 2231/136/2235's have JBL manufactured over the years? Doesn't anyone know the pro pedigree of JBL consumer, even JBL employees, anymore?:banghead:

4313B
02-16-2011, 03:07 PM
I have spoken to Jamie who is in the Consumer Division (whats left of it ).She's all that is left between us and India.
The information imparted by Jamie was correct in the offering that the original kit was no longer availiable.

However,had Jamie explored a bit futher,discovered that there is an updated replacement kit and given the current replacement kit option to the Service Center,all would have been well.I'm not willing to toss her under the bus on this one. She rocks. She did what her book told her. She doesn't have the kind of legacy knowledge we have, no fault of her own.
I believe that the Service Center who did the repairs only has availiability of Consumer parts and not the benifit or resources of the Pro division.Good point.
Its a bad decision to recone anything with generic parts without the customer being aware of the situation and I fault the Service Center for bad business practices on that regard.And they're the ones who get to feel the bus treads on this one as far as I'm concerned.
If you do decide to redo them down the road with the O.E.M. kits then use a better Service Center. (LIKE ME :bouncy: )

Sorry - Shamless Plug Here.Agreed.

So it's come to this?You probably don't know the half of it. The people running Harman at this point make me want to vomit. I think their shareholders are happy though.
From the finest loudspeaker manufacturer in the world?Yep.

How many 2231/136/2235's have JBL manufactured over the years?Gobs.
Doesn't anyone know the pro pedigree of JBL consumer, even JBL employees, anymore?:banghead:No.

And on that note:


This thread is F'in ridiculous!I suspect that we'll be seeing more of these kinds of threads. I got a PM the other day about the latest 2235H kits from Mexico and they're shit. JBL is done dude.

And on that note. We really need to pressure Brush-Wellman for some beryllium diaphragms for Tannoy loudspeakers. :yes:

cooky1257
02-16-2011, 03:21 PM
She's all that is left between us and India.I'm not willing to toss her under the bus on this one. She rocks. She did what her book told her. She doesn't have the kind of legacy knowledge we have, no fault of her own.

Yes ok, fair play to her.

True, I probably don't know the half of it.

Eaulive
02-16-2011, 04:14 PM
I suspect that we'll be seeing more of these kinds of threads. I got a PM the other day about the latest 2235H kits from Mexico and they're shit. JBL is done dude.

"they're shit"

I would like more input, not that I want to argue but this kind of description does not satisfy me :D
Only kits from Mexico I worked with were C8R1400PRO and I got to compare them with US made kits, no difference at all, both electrically and cosmetically.

4313B
02-16-2011, 05:14 PM
"they're shit"

I would like more input, not that I want to argue but this kind of description does not satisfy me :DMy fault!

Here's the verbatim description:

To make it short they are crap. VC offset, foam not centered, glue spots all over the cone, cone bent, glue on the vc.

So crap, not shit. I apologize. I forwarded the email to G.T. and his response was that Northridge wasn't doing QC on kits, just drivers, and he vehemently suggested that the reconer demand a proper replacement.


In any case, good luck with this stuff guys.

Eaulive
02-16-2011, 06:03 PM
My fault!

Here's the verbatim description:

To make it short they are crap. VC offset, foam not centered, glue spots all over the cone, cone bent, glue on the vc.

So crap, not shit. I apologize. I forwarded the email to G.T. and his response was that Northridge wasn't doing QC on kits, just drivers, and he vehemently suggested that the reconer demand a proper replacement.


In any case, good luck with this stuff guys.

Ok, that's a better description.

Like I said, I haven't work with other kits than those so maybe I got lucky. I even made a thread about it last summer.
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?29115-1400PRO-cone-kits-made-in-Mexico

I see you have a withdrawd comment :D

PROSNDINC
02-17-2011, 08:09 AM
I've been alerted to this thread by a nervous customer. We are one of the largest JBL Pro warranty/ service centers in the country. I can assure you C8r2235 kits will be available for a long time to come.

I won't directly respond to some of the service nightmares that are in this thread all I can say is that we rebuild quite a few vintage JBL studio monitors each year, both those with Pro model numbers and Consumer model numbers. Parts availability is "generally" not a problem for us. Customers are always happy with our repairs both sonically and from a cosmetic viewpoint. Sloppy work by others is never acceptable!

We ONLY use genuine JBL parts when reconing transducers. The aftermarket parts no matter what anyone says are not the same and don't come close to the acoustic qualities of the OEM parts.

I happen to be an owner of 4350's and 4343b studio monitors and have carefully rebuilt them to new condition, our service dept has JBL Factory Trained tech's and JBL often times directs customers to us from all over the country.

I'm leaving my contact info if anyone has questions about repair on vintage JBL speakers.

Good luck to all

Charlie

Charles Tappa
President
ProSound Service Inc.
Braintree, Ma. 02184
781-849-1285
Exclusive B&C USA Parts Distributor
ATM Flyware Stocking distributor.
sales@prosoundservice.com
www.prosoundservice.com (http://www.prosoundservice.com/)
www.prosoundparts.com (http://www.prosoundparts.com/)

Eaulive
02-17-2011, 09:51 AM
I've been alerted to this thread by a nervous customer. We are one of the largest JBL Pro warranty/ service centers in the country. I can assure you C8r2235 kits will be available for a long time to come.

I won't directly respond to some of the service nightmares that are in this thread all I can say is that we rebuild quite a few vintage JBL studio monitors each year, both those with Pro model numbers and Consumer model numbers. Parts availability is "generally" not a problem for us. Customers are always happy with our repairs both sonically and from a cosmetic viewpoint. Sloppy work by others is never acceptable!

We ONLY use genuine JBL parts when reconing transducers. The aftermarket parts no matter what anyone says are not the same and don't come close to the acoustic qualities of the OEM parts.

I happen to be an owner of 4350's and 4343b studio monitors and have carefully rebuilt them to new condition, our service dept has JBL Factory Trained tech's and JBL often times directs customers to us from all over the country.

I'm leaving my contact info if anyone has questions about repair on vintage JBL speakers.

Good luck to all

Charlie

Charles Tappa
President
ProSound Service Inc.
Braintree, Ma. 02184
781-849-1285
Exclusive B&C USA Parts Distributor
ATM Flyware Stocking distributor.
sales@prosoundservice.com
www.prosoundservice.com (http://www.prosoundservice.com/)
www.prosoundparts.com (http://www.prosoundparts.com/)

Thanks for your input and welcome to the forum.

toddalin
02-17-2011, 09:52 AM
I've been alerted to this thread by a nervous customer. We are one of the largest JBL Pro warranty/ service centers in the country. I can assure you C8r2235 kits will be available for a long time to come.

We ONLY use genuine JBL parts when reconing transducers. The aftermarket parts no matter what anyone says are not the same and don't come close to the acoustic qualities of the OEM parts.

Charlie

Charles Tappa
President
ProSound Service Inc.
Braintree, Ma. 02184
781-849-1285
Exclusive B&C USA Parts Distributor
ATM Flyware Stocking distributor.
sales@prosoundservice.com
www.prosoundservice.com (http://www.prosoundservice.com/)
www.prosoundparts.com (http://www.prosoundparts.com/)



Do you do refoams? If so, you are violating your own principals. JBL does not make the foams and recommends reconing when the foams wear out.

Anyone who accepts a refoam is accepting non-JBL parts..., period. I guess it comes down to where you draw the line.

cooky1257
02-17-2011, 10:19 AM
Do you do refoams? If so, you are violating your own principals. JBL does not make the foams and recommends reconing when the foams wear out.

Anyone who accepts a refoam is accepting non-JBL parts..., period. I guess it comes down to where you draw the line.

Where in his post did Charlie say he does re-foams?
He didn't, so I am unsure why you would raise the question.

toddalin
02-17-2011, 11:51 AM
Where in his post did Charlie say he does re-foams?
He didn't, so I am unsure why you would raise the question.


We ONLY use genuine JBL parts when reconing transducers. The aftermarket parts no matter what anyone says are not the same and don't come close to the acoustic qualities of the OEM parts.


I didn't say he did..., I asked if he did, so don't read into it. Why not let him answer?

Most places that do re-cones do re-foams. If he does, he is not using JBL parts.

hjames
02-17-2011, 01:45 PM
Do you do refoams? If so, you are violating your own principals. JBL does not make the foams and recommends reconing when the foams wear out.

Anyone who accepts a refoam is accepting non-JBL parts..., period. I guess it comes down to where you draw the line.

WOW, why not come out adversarial and challenge him to a flame War RIGHT NOW?

Sheesh - I guess it comes down to whether you plan to make friends with newcomers or circle the wagons for a fight!

Seems like a hell of an abrupt and rude response to his friendly and informative first post here ...

cooky1257
02-17-2011, 02:25 PM
Yep, gotta love those "when did you stop beating your partner?" type questions:applaud::applaud:

toddalin
02-17-2011, 03:09 PM
WOW, why not come out adversarial and challenge him to a flame War RIGHT NOW?

Sheesh - I guess it comes down to whether you plan to make friends with newcomers or circle the wagons for a fight!

Seems like a hell of an abrupt and rude response to his friendly and informative first post here ...


I don't see it that way. This entire thread is about the acceptance of non-JBL parts on a JBL. Many here have stated that they would only use JBL parts and anything else is unacceptable..., period.

Many dealers also state that only JBL parts are acceptable and that's all they'll use, but they fail to acknowledge re-foam jobs that they themselve do.

However, most of us have in fact have accepted non-JBL parts if we've ever had a re-foam done.

I'm just setting the record straight. Sorry if you found it curt and appologize to the new member.

Robh3606
02-17-2011, 03:30 PM
Easy guys/gals nothing to get excited about. I am sure almost all JBL reconners have aftermarket alternatives to re-cone some JBL drivers. All would be nuts not to offer re-foams especially when there are no JBL re-cone kits. They are in business and the more options they can offer their customers the better it is for all. Not everyone can drop $500 on a pair of re-cone kits, wants to or cares enough to keep things all original.

It's the owners choice if they decide to go with the re-foam option, aftermarket kits or a JBL kit if available. As long as it's clear from the start what route to go and the owner agrees up front which way to go all is good.

What we had here was a failure to communicate

I am one of the JBL only crowd but I don't expect everyone else to feel that way.

Rob:)

Wagner
02-18-2011, 09:27 AM
I don't see it that way. This entire thread is about the acceptance of non-JBL parts on a JBL. Many here have stated that they would only use JBL parts and anything else is unacceptable..., period.

Many dealers also state that only JBL parts are acceptable and that's all they'll use, but they fail to acknowledge re-foam jobs that they themselve do.

However, most of us have in fact have accepted non-JBL parts if we've ever had a re-foam done.

I'm just setting the record straight. Sorry if you found it curt and appologize to the new member.

This entire thread, most of it anyway, is about a guy that did not get what he asked for and now he's pissed.
What could be accomplished crying about it here I don't know.
I'd think the effort and time better spent dealing with the Wizard.
It has digressed into the well worn topic of JBL genuine parts only for repairs.
I personally think that is the only way to go, IF you can afford to pay the freight.
A lot of people cannot. I see nothing wrong with a business offering that option.
It is not a reason to denigrate them at least not in my eyes.
Poor business practices, YES. Offering options that some people don't agree with, NO.
A visit to this guy's web site and a few minutes of hunting around reveals the fact that in NO way does he promote replacing foam surrounds.
Not saying that he won't do them if you ask, I don't know, but he sure as heck ain't promoting it like some.
OCS for one comes to mind.
The beauty of drivers the quality of JBL is that every mistake made is reversible, short of a UPS or USPS bounce test.
As for guitarnie, I would suggest keeping that in mind while you ENJOY the damn speakers as you work on sorting this out.
Refusing to listen to them or doing something dramatic like selling them short is a bit over the top, wouldn't you think?

Thomas

Wagner
02-18-2011, 09:37 AM
Easy guys/gals nothing to get excited about. I am sure almost all JBL reconners have aftermarket alternatives to re-cone some JBL drivers. All would be nuts not to offer re-foams especially when there are no JBL re-cone kits. They are in business and the more options they can offer their customers the better it is for all. Not everyone can drop $500 on a pair of re-cone kits, wants to or cares enough to keep things all original.

It's the owners choice if they decide to go with the re-foam option, aftermarket kits or a JBL kit if available. As long as it's clear from the start what route to go and the owner agrees up front which way to go all is good.

What we had here was a failure to communicate

I am one of the JBL only crowd but I don't expect everyone else to feel that way.

Rob:)

Well said.

Thomas

Wagner
02-18-2011, 09:55 AM
JBLs operating at 75% capacity are better than most others operating at 100%.

Thomas

Mr. Widget
02-18-2011, 10:57 AM
This entire thread, most of it anyway, is about a guy that did not get what he asked for and now he's pissed.
What could be accomplished crying about it here I don't know.Well... early on it was made clear to him that while it is true the original 136A (C8R2231) kits are NLA, there is a suitable and recommended JBL substitute/upgrade, the C8R2235. So, I would submit posting the original query was relevant and useful... now obviously 95 posts later one does have to wonder, what's the point.


Widget

4313B
02-18-2011, 11:43 AM
I'd personally like to see it break the "100 posts" barrier.

Wagner
02-18-2011, 12:00 PM
I'd personally like to see it break the "100 posts" barrier.

:)

hjames
02-18-2011, 12:35 PM
I'd personally like to see it break the "100 posts" barrier.

Of course, G, anything to make you happy
We are SO CLOSE anyway ... just need 2 MORE!:bouncy:

Robh3606
02-18-2011, 12:43 PM
Ah hell

Rob:)

doodle6
02-18-2011, 12:44 PM
Well, I'd hate to think that I wasn't carrying my share of the load...

4313B
02-18-2011, 12:52 PM
You folks rock! :yes:

mikebake
02-18-2011, 01:11 PM
Did I miss a party?

grumpy
02-18-2011, 01:43 PM
count yourself lucky.

Eaulive
02-18-2011, 05:16 PM
Ib4l :D

Audiobeer
02-18-2011, 07:53 PM
I think we should change the threads name to "Small but perfectly formed JBL recone screwup".
I know it sounds like another thread and 1/5th count but it has 20 times the contributers :D

I'm sorry that's just mean! :(

But......I'll give you an example about the business side. Where I work a customer came in with her vehicle with some scratches on her hood and fenders. This vehicle was a beater. The insurance company paid to repair and refinish the the Hood and Fenders. The car had rock chips everywhere, The work was completed and weeks later a friend advised the constomer we did a crappy job and it had fish eye everywhere in the paint. When I handled the complaint from the customer it was obvious it wasn't crappy work. We had completed the task and painted the damaged finish but we painted over 100s of rock chips that now look like paint imperfections. Had we told the customer ahead of time that the the panels needed to be stripped for an extra cost She would have probably declined and this would have never been an issue. So the second go around the shop had to break down the doors and blend into those panels and eat those additional costs. So the moral of the story is that we can't assume the customer knows the business and what is going on. You have to know what the customers expectations are and address them. If you lose the job so what. We lost plenty of money on the job, but at least we don't have a customer bad mouthing us and the estimater learned a valuable lesson, find out what the customers expectations are and advise them what you can or cannot do. Losing the job on the front end beats losing money and customers on the backend as well as getting your reputation damaged.

brutal
02-18-2011, 11:51 PM
I think we should change the threads name to "Small but perfectly formed JBL recone screwup".
I know it sounds like another thread and 1/5th count but it has 20 times the contributers :D

I'm sorry that's just mean! :(

I LOL'd

opimax
02-19-2011, 07:58 AM
200 is so close now!!!

ratitifb
02-19-2011, 10:12 AM
:hmm:

49987

Audiobeer
02-19-2011, 04:27 PM
I'd personally like to see it break the "100 posts" barrier.

Lets make this happen by Monday Evening!!!!:D

Rolf
02-20-2011, 04:49 AM
200 is so close now!!!

I was thinking 1000. If so, that must be a record here?

SEAWOLF97
02-20-2011, 10:57 AM
Lets make this happen by Monday Evening!!!!:D

no , I won't participate in running up the post count.

Uncle Paul
02-20-2011, 02:21 PM
Me neither.

Rolf
02-20-2011, 02:28 PM
Me neither.

:rotfl:We are on the road! :rotfl:

1audiohack
02-20-2011, 02:48 PM
I think a new forum called "No Topic" should be created. It should not come up when the "What's New" button is clicked. This would be the disposal site for use when a thread loses all meaning. At the point of severance the bored can pick it up on the No Topic forum and go on and on until death if they want to possibly leaving behind in the original thread something useful for the search engine to turn up.

Audiobeer
02-20-2011, 04:34 PM
I would have like to see it closed days ago.....thats why the sarcasm has arrived. :applaud: