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MikeBrewster77
01-19-2011, 07:20 AM
So, I recently decided to buy a pair of Ti10k's from JBL's tenthouse/sideshow/bargain basement online store. Admittedly, the decision was driven not because I had longed for these speakers for years, or even necessarily as part of a quest for sonic bliss. Rather, it was a combination of an impressive driver line-up (I already know I like the mid) curiosity, ridiculously low price, and the fact that I think they look cool. Best case scenario, I love them and they go into the "statement system." Worst case scenario,they're not my cup of tea, and they get taken down into the basement which I have plans to re-finish into an Eames-esque lounge type environment. Win/Win, right?

I pulled the trigger on 1/10, and shipping confirmation came via e-mail on 1/12, which I thought was a great turnaround. I checked the UPS tracker religiously day-by-day waiting for them to come. All I kept seeing was a message that the shipping label had been created, but that the items were not in UPS' possession.

Yesterday, I called Harman with two questions. One was why the order confirmation had two different model numbers: Ti10KBE and Ti10kBE-Z. Short answer is the "-Z" designation means a factory re-furb, so even though both speakers were listed as refurb's, one is actually new. Cool!

Second question - when are they going to ship? Answer "Let me transfer you to my supervisor" Ummmm ... OK. 10 minutes later I hear "Thank you for calling technical support, how can I help you?" I explain to the guy that I'm not sure how I wound up in tech support, but I was just trying to figure out when my order was going to ship. He was pleasant enough, and tried to be helpful. His response was "That's weird - they're coming from Georgia, and it looks like they were put on the truck, then taken off again. They've had some ice down there, so that's probably the delay." I asked him if he had any idea when they'd be put back on the truck, and he helpfully suggested that while he didn't, I could track the shipment online. Thanks! :banghead:

Bear in mind that exchange was yesterday afternoon. So, what to my wondering eyes should appear today but the UPS truck. And what should come off the back but one big-ass box with a JBL logo on it. I literally leapt from my office chair, scrambled downstairs and opened the door. In contrast to my prior post about UPS, this guy could not have been nicer! Let me state that again -- could not have been nicer or more helpful. Long story short, he actually helped me carry them into the house.

Scary sight number one: One box had appropriate shipping straps around the carton, and one did not.

Scary sight number two: One flap of the box actually opening while it was being taken of the truck. The tape holding it closed had apparently given way to the strain of containing a 100+lb loudspeaker. Imagine that.

Scary sound number one: Actually hearing the unit jostle around inside one of the boxes while the UPS gentleman and I brought it up the steps to the house.

Scary sight number three:
49460


Downright disgusting sight number one:
49461


Thus begins the journey. Needless to say, there will be no listening notes posted tonight. An e-mail went to Harman within 1/2 hour of receipt of the shipment, complete with pictures documenting the box, the "shipping protection," and the destroyed tweet. Suffice it to say, I've had eBay sellers do a far better job of packaging JBL's, and that's just downright disgusting when you're talking about buying direct from the manufacturer.


Wish me luck!

hjames
01-19-2011, 07:28 AM
So, I recently decided to buy a pair of Ti10k's from JBL's tenthouse/sideshow/bargain basement online store.
Worst case scenario,they're not my cup of tea, and they get taken down into the basement which I have plans to re-finish into an Eames-esque lounge type environment. Win/Win, right?

Scary sight number one: One box had appropriate shipping straps around the carton, and one did not.


Scary sight number two: One flap of the box actually opening while it was being taken of the truck. The tape holding it closed had apparently given way to the strain of containing a 100+lb loudspeaker. Imagine that.

Scary sound number one: Actually hearing the unit jostle around inside one of the boxes while the UPS gentleman and I brought it up the steps to the house.


Thus begins the journey. Needless to say, there will be no listening notes posted tonight. An e-mail went to Harman within 1/2 of receipt of the shipment, complete with pictures documenting the box, the "shipping protection," and the destroyed tweet. Suffice it to say, I've had eBay sellers do a far better job of packaging JBL's, and that's just downright disgusting when you're talking about buying direct from the manufacturer.

Wish me luck!

Awww, that stinks - What horrible packing!!
A great plan, lousy follow through by HK ... what a shame!

best wishes for a happy and quick resolution!

MikeBrewster77
01-19-2011, 07:37 AM
Awww, that stinks - What horrible packing!!
A great plan, lousy follow through by HK ... what a shame!

best wishes for a happy and quick resolution!

Thanks Heather - I appreciate the well wishes! :)

Best I can hope for is they call and say "we'll send you a new driver" and that's the end of the story.

4313B
01-19-2011, 07:42 AM
Best I can hope for is they call and say "we'll send you a new driver" and that's the end of the story.That's what needs to happen - along with all our prayers that they don't merely toss the new driver into a padded envelope and you have to go through the usual two or three replacement drivers to get a good one. :rolleyes:

Yeah... Harman's packing and shipping practices utterly astound me. Whoever is in charge of that channel should be fired. I mean seriously... come on...

Regis
01-19-2011, 07:59 AM
That is one shameful packing job! It looks like your worst Ebay shipping nightmare. Gawd... When you have them up and running, please let us know what you think of em'! You may want to run them anyway, to see if any of the motors or poles got knocked loose inside the drivers....

opimax
01-19-2011, 08:42 AM
shipping practices are a personal war, absolutely discusting , are you sure they were't done by a child???

Best wishes on the repair!!

Mark

MikeBrewster77
01-19-2011, 08:55 AM
Update: Both tweets are trashed. FML! :(

MikeBrewster77
01-19-2011, 09:25 AM
That's what needs to happen - along with all our prayers that they don't merely toss the new driver into a padded envelope and you have to go through the usual two or three replacement drivers to get a good one. :rolleyes:
Make that two drivers. Great, a double shot for them to f%ck it up. :hurray:


Yeah... Harman's packing and shipping practices utterly astound me. Whoever is in charge of that channel should be fired. I mean seriously... come on...

I agreed before; now I doubly agree! Can you fire someone twice?


When you have them up and running, please let us know what you think of em'! You may want to run them anyway, to see if any of the motors or poles got knocked loose inside the drivers....

I will absolutely post listening notes once they're operational, though if I'm going to hazard a guess that could be at least a week or so. They're a bitch to move too, so it may take some time to tweak the setup to the point that I'm comfortable giving them a thorough evaluation. I'm also running them now to check overall operation; remarkably, the other drivers seem to be unscathed.


are you sure they were't done by a child???

I might be led to think so, but then again I'm fairly certain my 5 year old niece could have done a better job! ;)

SEAWOLF97
01-19-2011, 10:37 AM
Update: Both tweets are trashed. FML! :(

so am I understanding correctly ..... even the one that was packed CORRECTLY was smashed too ??

makes you wonder if they were shipped that way ...:eek:

MikeBrewster77
01-19-2011, 10:51 AM
so am I understanding correctly ..... even the one that was packed CORRECTLY was smashed too ??

makes you wonder if they were shipped that way ...:eek:

My guess is the one that (outwardly) appeared to be packed correctly was sitting around for quite some time, and over that time the Styrofoam packing material deteriorated to the point that it was useless, as it was broken up and all over the place within the box as well. Who knows? Maybe they unpacked it at one time and then [poorly] re-packed it . My guess is as good as yours :dont-know:

I can't believe they would ship them with the tweets in the condition they were in. Strike that, I sadly can believe it, but refuse to allow myself to...

Titanium Dome
01-19-2011, 10:57 AM
Observation #1: That's unacceptable. You should elevate your complaint (if you can find anyone at Harman who cares).

Observation #2: This is a brave move on your part, which I applaud. :applaud: Despite the FU by harman, when you get them right you'll be a proud owner of a truly underrated design.

Observation #3: You just saved me $2500. Thanks. After seeing what you are going through, most--not all--of my desire to pull the trigger has evaporated. If you post glowing reviews later, that could change. :p

rdgrimes
01-19-2011, 01:00 PM
I think I would have refused the shipment and let them go back. But a lot depends on how Harman decides to handle this. You did PAY for original factory packing which you didn't get and will not have the use of at a later time.

JBLAddict
01-19-2011, 01:14 PM
I'm probably as excited as anyone here to that a forum member bought these, and we'll all be fortunate enough (hoping, assuming, praying :)) to finally get some detailed notes in comparison to other JBL lines. I've wanted the Ti10K as my first choice when moving on from the L100 years ago, and consider your purchase my own personal closure :D

if you have great things to say, and they're still available at this price, I just may end up pulling the trigger over a considered PS move.

While I can't believe the manufacturer could possibly put $7K msrp speakers in a box as good as my 4 yr old could, at the same time, I can believe it. I made one purchase from harmanaudio.com a few years ago for a DVD48-"Z" and the thing came in a box without any packing and some cords thrown on top, and the unit, no exaggeration looked like it was in the main party room of a frat house for four years and then boxed by them and shipped to my house directly. I had many tell me this was far from standard for harman but I've never believed it, now this travesty!!

anyway, sorry to hear of your troubles, really hoping you get quick resolution, and back to business on this important matter :p

edit: other than all your troubles, g'dam is that a good looking speaker!

MikeBrewster77
01-19-2011, 02:05 PM
Well, resolution didn't start off well. The two e-mails I sent to harmanaudio@harman.com went unanswered throughout the day. Getting impatient I called the 516 number listed on the "Shop Harman Direct" site. Just as an FYI, that call center is in India (shocker, I know.) The guy I got was the same exact guy I had yesterday -- y'know, the one who offered to transfer me to his supervisor and instead sent me to tech support for a simple inquiry around shipping timeframes.

And so went the conversation today. After asking no questions about the extent of the damamge, the initial response was "you need to contact UPS." At that point, all patience was lost, my voice suddenly got several decibels louder, and my response was something to the effect of "this is not UPS' fault -- you packaged the product like shit, therefore I expect resolution from you". His response (another shocker): "Let me transfer me you to my supervisor."

Yeah .... I went down this road with you yesterday buddy. You're not getting off that easy...

Me: What's the name of your supervisor please? Because yesterday when you advised me you were transfering me to your supervisor, you sent me to tech support where I held for 10 minutes before speaking with someone
HK: I'm sending you to a supervisor, sir.
Me: That's not what I asked -- who is your direct supervisor?
HK: We have many supervisors
Me: On your corporate organizational chart, who do you directly report to?
HK: His name is [undiscernable], but he is not here
Me: Who is the call center supervisor?
HK: His name is Alan; he is not here
Me: Are you telling me there is no one in a supervisory function currently working at your call center?
HK: No sir, not at the moment
Me: Then if there are no supervisors working, who is this supervisor you just said you were going to transfer me to?
HK: Sir, we are in India. I will have to transfer you to a facility in the US
Me: Ahhhhhhh .... So, back to tech support I go.

Things didn't look promising at this point. However, Tech support was marvellous. They are shipping two new tweeters (no questions asked) and we are hopefully on our way to resolution.

Thinking it might help other forum members who have similar situations arise (which for all of you, I hope is never the case) I asked if there was a direct number to this particular support group. I was told that the phones were specifically routed so that there was not. Do I believe that? Not really sure, but so much for trying...

That said Tom (the support guy) was really, really great. He asked about my comfort level with changing out the tweets myself, and we even talked about some of my other JBL gear and his opinions on the Tik series. He also noted that they (I assume he means his particular group) have been actively advocating for better packaging, but with limited results. Something tells me Tom gets calls like these more than he'd like.

Anyway, keep your fingers crossed for me guys! :)

hjames
01-19-2011, 02:11 PM
Well, resolution didn't start off well. The two e-mails I sent to harmanaudio@harman.com went unanswered throughout the day. Getting impatient I called the 516 number listed on the "Shop Harman Direct" site. Just as an FYI, that call center is in India (shocker, I know.) The guy I got was the same exact guy I had yesterday -- y'know, the one who offered to transfer me to his supervisor and instead sent me to tech support for a simple inquiry around shipping timeframes.

And so went the conversation today.

That said Tom (the support guy) was really, really great. He asked about my comfort level with changing out the tweets myself, and we even talked about some of my other JBL gear and his opinions on the Tik series. He also noted that they (I assume he means his particular group) have been actively advocating for better packaging, but with limited results. Something tells me Tom gets calls like these more than he'd like.

Anyway, keep your fingers crossed for me guys! :)

Isn't a shame you have to fight to get reasonable treatment?
Isn't a bigger shame that a company like this has enough slop to actual ship this way??

Yeah, we did a big dance with Harman on my HK AVR7300 receiver last year - logged in another thread (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?27150-AV-Component-Front-ends/),
but it sounds like you got the right bottom line - a warm human being that talks real to you. Good luck on the resolution!

MikeBrewster77
01-19-2011, 02:30 PM
I'm probably as excited as anyone here to that a forum member bought these, and we'll all be fortunate enough (hoping, assuming, praying :)) to finally get some detailed notes in comparison to other JBL lines.

if you have great things to say, and they're still available at this price, I just may end up pulling the trigger over a considered PS move.

While I can't believe the manufacturer could possibly put $7K msrp speakers in a box as good as my 4 yr old could, at the same time, I can believe it... I had many tell me this was far from standard for harman but I've never believed it, now this travesty!!

edit: other than all your troubles, g'dam is that a good looking speaker!

Thanks! I appreciate the thoughts, and hope to be able to offer some real analysis on what seems to be a "black hole" in terms of first hand experience with this particular model. Honestly, the sheer curiosity truly is a big part of what finally pushed me to pull the trigger.

I'm thinking based on my convo with Tech Support, packaging is actually a known issue, so I think your experience is probably not unique. :(

And yes, it is an incredible looking speaker. But I have to warn you -- it is BIG! I mean, I expected large, but these suckers take up some real estate. Beautiful, but a little imposing in stature! That said, they're even sexier in person than they appear in photos! ;)

MikeBrewster77
01-19-2011, 02:33 PM
Isn't a shame you have to fight to get reasonable treatment?
Absolutely

Isn't a bigger shame that a company like this has enough slop to actual ship this way?? Absolutely!


Yeah, we did a big dance with Harman on my HK AVR7300 receiver last year - its all logged in another thread, but it sounds like you got the right bottom line - a warm human being that talks real to you. Good luck on the resolution!

I think I remember that debacle. And you're right, I'm fortunate to have been connected to a decent guy who seemed to know his stuff and actually *gasp* apologized for my bad experience. I sometimes think companies forget just how far customer service, owning up to your shortcomings, and quickly resolving them can take an organization.

MikeBrewster77
01-19-2011, 02:40 PM
Observation #1: That's unacceptable. You should elevate your complaint (if you can find anyone at Harman who cares).
I will, and I will also take the time to send some sort of commendation e-mail for Tom.


Observation #2: This is a brave move on your part, which I applaud. :applaud: Despite the FU by harman, when you get them right you'll be a proud owner of a truly underrated design.
Appreciate that, but when you're getting a $7K MSRP system for a small fraction of the price, I'm not sure if it's bravery or just the bargain seeker in me ;). I also knew they'd get used somewhere around here. Every JBL speaker I own has its place, both in terms of how I use it and where it's located. :)


Observation #3: You just saved me $2500. Thanks. After seeing what you are going through, most--not all--of my desire to pull the trigger has evaporated. If you post glowing reviews later, that could change. :p

I wish I had something positive to say to this. I mean, the packaging was just downright deplorable and I think it's safe to say I'd never buy from them direct again. That said, if the resolution is quick and painless, and I love them as much as I hope I will (which I have to say -- I just might given the glimmer of potential greatness they've displayed even while I was testing them to make sure nothing else was f%cked up) then maybe both you and I will be in a position to reconsider. In the interim, you're welcome. ;)

MikeBrewster77
01-19-2011, 02:42 PM
And just a general thanks for all the support today guys. I gotta admit, it was a pretty shitty way to end a good period of anticipation, and having this as an outlet to share the disappointment as well as the kind words and thoughts has been helpful! :)

JeffW
01-19-2011, 02:47 PM
I bought a pair of LE14H-3 drivers from Harman recently, they were packaged about like these speakers. A little piece of styrofoam under the magnet and a piece of cardboard over the cone. The packing was totally obliterated by the time the drivers arrived, but the drivers were miraculously unscathed. I don't think they would have survived a single UPS truck transfer more.

Sorry to see the damage your speakers suffered, that sure takes the shine off the "oh boy! new gear!" high.

SEAWOLF97
01-19-2011, 03:26 PM
But I have to warn you -- it is BIG! I mean, I expected large, but these suckers take up some real estate. Beautiful, but a little imposing in stature! That said, they're even sexier in person than they appear in photos! ;)

they are 1.5 inches shorter than L250/250Ti according to techbot...

Hope you have a happy ending , tho things shouldn't be this hard ... (thats what she said)

MikeBrewster77
01-19-2011, 03:50 PM
they are 1.5 inches shorter than L250/250Ti according to techbot...

Seems about right. I think it's not so much the height that makes them seem so massive as it is the depth. For context, the L250 is 14.25" deep and the Ti10k is about 22.5". It might also have something to do with the curvature of the wood or simply my frame of reference as I've never owned any of those 200lb blue faced monitors; hell, owners of those might find the Ti downright diminutive by comparison... ;) That said, they're truly a fantastic looking speaker!


Hope you have a happy ending , tho things shouldn't be this hard ... (thats what she said)

Hell, if Harman/JBL gives me a "happy ending" then I'll truly be a satisfied customer :D

MikeBrewster77
01-19-2011, 03:52 PM
I bought a pair of LE14H-3 drivers from Harman recently ... The packing was totally obliterated by the time the drivers arrived, but the drivers were miraculously unscathed. I don't think they would have survived a single UPS truck transfer more.

Seems to be a trend here, no? :blink:


Sorry to see the damage your speakers suffered, that sure takes the shine off the "oh boy! new gear!" high.

It does, but I'm optimistic about the outcome and hoping for the best!

rdgrimes
01-19-2011, 05:34 PM
Bright side:

More time to plan the quad-amp system and you get free spare parts!

MikeBrewster77
01-19-2011, 05:47 PM
Bright side: More time to plan the quad-amp system....

Ha! Great point. :D

Of course, I'll need to give them a solid run with fully functional drivers before I start planning how to amplify them, and how much I want to invest. That said, I certainly don't lack for options!!! :blink:

JBLAddict
01-19-2011, 10:46 PM
Dear Mike,

Just wanted to give my sincere apologies for the unfortunate experience you are having with your foray into the world of TiK, but I promise once up and running, you'll find my design well worth the trouble!

---Dan

49469

hjames
01-20-2011, 02:35 AM
Dear Mike,

Just wanted to give my sincere apologies for the unfortunate experience you are having with your foray into the world of TiK, but I promise once up and running, you'll find my design well worth the trouble!

---Dan

49469
Well, they certainly are gorgeous speakers - add the Ti6k,Ti2k and Center to make such a nice looking system.
I'm a fan of the Beech look ... it would go perfectly with all our IKEA stuff!
Now I just need to sell off either the 4341s or the L200-modifieds - or both!

MikeBrewster77
01-20-2011, 04:35 AM
Dear Mike,

Just wanted to give my sincere apologies for the unfortunate experience you are having with your foray into the world of TiK, but I promise once up and running, you'll find my design well worth the trouble!

---Dan

49469

Dan, while I truly appreciate your sentiment, you certainly have nothing for which to apologize! Rather, I apologize that you had to see a loudspeaker design you clearly put such a great deal of effort into treated so cavalierly.

Heather couldn't have said it better: These are simply gorgeous speakers, extremely worthy of the Good Design accolade they received around the time of their debut.

As I mentioned earlier - even with two distressed tweets - I heard shades of greatness while running them to check for any additional issues. I have very little reservation that when all is said and done these will become an extremely prized part of my JBL collection.

Thank you once again for sharing your thoughts!

- Mike

JBLAddict
01-21-2011, 01:08 PM
Mike, I feel bad, you either missed my attempt at humor, or got it and I'm not getting your response :):(

for safety sake, a little explanation: Dan Ashcraft was the industrial designer of the TiK series (among many others). A few years ago in a TiK thread here, a guy offshore with a pair of black Ti6K (which he called quite humorously called his "vaders") posted this pic of Dan standing next to the speaker espousing that if the TiK were not better than other JBL monitors why would Dan choose this speaker to stand next to, or something to that effect.

when I read your story, somehow the thought of reposting this pic (http://www.audioheritage.org/html/perspectives/2001-tour.htm), showing how proud this JBL mega-player was of the design, and if he could he would tell you to hang in there as it would be worth it. In retrospect, perhaps this was not such a good idea?

grumpy
01-21-2011, 01:14 PM
Being an older sibling, I decided to just sit and watch... :lurk:

Nice recovery :)

MikeBrewster77
01-21-2011, 01:24 PM
Mike, I feel bad, you either missed my attempt at humor, or got it and I'm not getting your response :):(

Hahaha - yeah, about that... :p

So, I replied rather early in the morning (literally not even quite through my first cup of coffee) and didn't know WTF to make of it. Not being awake, I'm thinking to myself, is this dude really Dan?!?!?! I mean, I knew that he was the designer, and I had to run out of the door for work, so I just fired off a response, and figured eh, whatever.

I was traveling yesterday, and during the two hour drive home from the client with whom I was meeting, the humor of it dawned on me as I mulled it over. I meant to update the reply yesterday, but didn't get in until way late. So, ya gave me a good laugh on a long and boring ride home, so thanks for that :)

MikeBrewster77
01-21-2011, 01:25 PM
Being an older sibling, I decided to just sit and watch... :lurk:



And being the youngest, I fell for it. THANKS! :p

MikeBrewster77
01-21-2011, 01:26 PM
On a different note, the tweets are on their way, and should be here Monday. Then, let the games begin! :yes:

JBLAddict
01-21-2011, 01:45 PM
OK, cool, glad you found the humor, even better with a delayed reaction :D

til Monday then!

Titanium Dome
01-21-2011, 02:16 PM
As the old man of the group, "You kids knock it off. You;re going to put out somebody's eye--err, I mean tweeter!"

JBLAddict
01-24-2011, 05:00 PM
On a different note, the tweets are on their way, and should be here Monday. Then, let the games begin! :yes:


tick, tick, tick !!!!! :D

MikeBrewster77
01-24-2011, 05:35 PM
tick, tick, tick !!!!! :D

... and tock! ;)
Tweets both came today, are installed, and they are running in as we speak. :applaud:

And, I have a bit of confession: I have spent some time with them even with the damaged tweets. I figured I was going to do everything I could to get some of the initial set-up and placement out of the way, and let's face it, it's damned near impossible to have these sitting in a room in the house and not give them a run.

I spent about an hour with them since the new tweets have been installed after giving them about 2 hours of run in while I worked upstairs.

Based on that, and what I have heard thus far, I can say two things at this point (assuming the tweets integrate with the rest of the speaker as well as I think they will):

1.) These will not be in the basement [I]anytime soon*
2.) They are worth every penny of the full original MSRP

More to come as I get some quality time with them! ;)

* Provided I do not hit the lottery anytime soon, or get insanely wasted one night and buy the 1400 Arrays.

49533

JBLAddict
01-24-2011, 05:40 PM
... and tock! ;)

2.) They are worth every penny of the full original MSRP




crap, nightmare scenario for me :p

MikeBrewster77
01-24-2011, 05:43 PM
crap, nightmare scenario for me :p

As I continue to listen and post my impressions, I swear, I'll do my best to find something really, really negative to say about them just for you. ;)

JeffW
01-24-2011, 06:16 PM
Glad you got them up and running to their full potential!

It doesn't really offset the worst packing job on the planet, but at least they are back to pristine and making music.

rdgrimes
01-24-2011, 08:29 PM
It's amazing they didn't suffer cab damage. They must be pretty tough.

They look like robots perched in the room. But you really can't deny the 250ti genes lurking there, and the PS genes. Bootiful speakers.

polar_bear_0104
01-24-2011, 08:30 PM
... and tock! ;)
Tweets both came today, are installed, and they are running in as we speak. :applaud:

And, I have a bit of confession: I have spent some time with them even with the damaged tweets. I figured I was going to do everything I could to get some of the initial set-up and placement out of the way, and let's face it, it's damned near impossible to have these sitting in a room in the house and not give them a run.

I spent about an hour with them since the new tweets have been installed after giving them about 2 hours of run in while I worked upstairs.

Based on that, and what I have heard thus far, I can say two things at this point (assuming the tweets integrate with the rest of the speaker as well as I think they will):

1.) These will not be in the basement [I]anytime soon*
2.) They are worth every penny of the full original MSRP

More to come as I get some quality time with them! ;)

* Provided I do not hit the lottery anytime soon, or get insanely wasted one night and buy the 1400 Arrays.

49533



wow.... a glass of wine and a book on the guide to high-end audio...how geeky...:D

Regis
01-25-2011, 08:06 AM
... and tock! ;)
Tweets both came [intact] today, are installed, and they are running in as we speak. :applaud:

And, I have a bit of confession: I have spent some time with them even with the damaged tweets. I figured I was going to do everything I could to get some of the initial set-up and placement out of the way, and let's face it, it's damned near impossible to have these sitting in a room in the house and not give them a run.



Yes, we had you figured out!:p I knew that you'd be running them, damaged tweets or not. The temptation was just too much! Must run new JBL's! Must listen to them extensively and gawd, do they sound good! But really, I'm stoked that you're enjoying them and they are exceeding your expectations! Waaaay cool and congrats!

Titanium Dome
01-25-2011, 08:35 AM
Great, glad they're working out! They should soon have you mesmerized and under their control. It's an easy surrender, yes?

Just one note of caution: remove those fugly grilles at once! :scold: You cannot get the full aural and visual addiction with those damnable things messing up the aesthetic!

Have you done it? :frantic:



Have you done it? :frantic:



Have you done it? :confused:



There, now surrender. :yes:

MikeBrewster77
01-25-2011, 09:31 AM
It doesn't really offset the worst packing job on the planet, but at least they are back to pristine and making music.

Very true. That said, I'm going to venture a guess and say that I'd do it all over again in a heartbeat -- initial shipping FU and all -- given the final outcome.


It's amazing they didn't suffer cab damage. They must be pretty tough.

They look like robots perched in the room. But you really can't deny the 250ti genes lurking there, and the PS genes. Bootiful speakers.

It still amazes me that none of the other drivers were damaged, let alone the cabs. And I agree, the more I look at them, the more I can see their heritage. As for the robot comment, the way they keep inching forward, they might as well be. They throw a phenomenal horizontal image; if you want depth, however, you're gonna have to get them away from the back walls. And slowly, I keep moving them further and further into the room.


wow.... a glass of wine and a book on the guide to high-end audio...how geeky...:D

I've been known to "geek out" on occasion. :o: The book is actually a really good reference though, and well worth the read. The wine was quite nice as well.


Yes, we had you figured out!:p I knew that you'd be running them, damaged tweets or not. The temptation was just too much! Must run new JBL's! Must listen to them extensively and gawd, do they sound good! But really, I'm stoked that you're enjoying them and they are exceeding your expectations! Waaaay cool and congrats!

I really tried to resist the temptation because I didn't want to get a bad first impression. And for about the first day I was good. Then it just got to be way too much. They were just sitting there ... staring at me ... toying with me ... preying on my known weakness to JBL's ... whispering seductively "come play with us."



Just one note of caution: remove those fugly grilles at once! :scold: You cannot get the full aural and visual addiction with those damnable things messing up the aesthetic!

There, now surrender. :yes:

Duly noted! Truth be told, I put the grills on for the 1st time last night, and that was just to tame the tweets as the ran in. They're playing downstairs now while I work, so by the time my day wraps up, they'll have been through the recommended 8-12 hour run in, and the grilles will be back off. :yes:

Thanks for all the congrats and comments. Should be posting a full report shortly! :)

rdgrimes
01-25-2011, 10:24 AM
They throw a phenomenal horizontal image;
Due in no small part to inverse dome titanium mids. The PS is the same way, it's like one BIG speaker in front. Especially with a PC600 in the mix. DISPERSION.

Titanium Dome
01-25-2011, 10:29 AM
As for the robot comment, the way they keep inching forward, they might as well be. They throw a phenomenal horizontal image; if you want depth, however, you're gonna have to get them away from the back walls. And slowly, I keep moving them further and further into the room.




I really tried to resist the temptation because I didn't want to get a bad first impression. And for about the first day I was good. Then it just got to be way too much. They were just sitting there ... staring at me ... toying with me ... preying on my known weakness to JBL's ... whispering seductively "come play with us."




Should be posting a full report shortly! :)

Too funny, as my K2s have the same habit: just another inch, just another inch, just one more inch... For GAF's sake, I started with them pretty tight into the corners just to get them into the house, yet now they're 34" out and accelerating.

If you're not careful, you'll be giving that report from inside the speaker.

JBLAddict
01-25-2011, 11:02 AM
Just one note of caution: remove those fugly grilles at once! :

funny, as that was my first thought as well, was hoping to see them with the bikini off :D after all, their appearance in the buff is prolly as good as any JBL I can think of, and part of why I've wanted them so much these last 4 years

I have some major home renovations going on this week, vinyl windows, tile coming out, carpets coming out, wood going in, walls/ceilings all being painted, total chaos at this very moment, JBLs/HK/OPPO all covered with plastic :(

anyway, after the $$, not sure the spending momentum would carry easier with my wife for new Ti10s, or if that'll go in the opposite direction. At the moment, thinking I can sell it as part of the remodeling plan while we're already writing checks every day, ya know, American Apple floors with JBL Beech furniture....yeah baby:p

MikeBrewster77
01-25-2011, 12:32 PM
Best I could do with the sun streaming in from the porch...

49556

49557

MikeBrewster77
01-25-2011, 12:44 PM
... For GAF's sake, I started with them pretty tight into the corners just to get them into the house, yet now they're 34" out and accelerating.


Replace "GAF's sake" with "aesthetics" and "pretty tight into the corners" with "the very back corner of the speaker about 6 inches away from the wall" and we're in exactly the same spot ;)



anyway, after the $$, not sure the spending momentum would carry easier with my wife for new Ti10s, or if that'll go in the opposite direction. At the moment, thinking I can sell it as part of the remodeling plan while we're already writing checks every day, ya know, American Apple floors with JBL Beech furniture....yeah baby:p

YES! Part of the remodeling plan! Three little words will take you far: Furniture. Grade. Cabinets.

"Darling, I know you've tolerated these black boxes for so long. These, however, well they are dramatically different. Why, in fact the cabinets were designed by the renowned Ashcraft firm. I mean, it's not really even so much a loudspeaker as it is a statement. They'll blend in with our decor marvelously." Etc., etc., etc....

P.S., FWIW, I have mine in a room with dark wood accents and furniture. They don't blend in with a damned thing, and honestly -- they still look good!

rdgrimes
01-25-2011, 01:28 PM
Best I could do with the sun streaming in from the porch...

Mmmmm, speaker porn.

jblnut
01-25-2011, 01:32 PM
I guess I'm not the only one who's been a closet admirer of the TiK series! I'm so disappointed there's no one left at JBL to properly pack these things, or even answer a phone call when you run into issues, but it seems like "all's well that ends well".

They look stunning and I'm sure they sound it too. Can't wait to hear your impressions! I hope my 250TI's last a whole lot longer, but if they don't this would be a good road to go down I'm thinking. I've got the room and a wife who knows good speakers need to be SEEN to be HEARD (no silly little cubes for her).

If you don't mind, please give us all a run down of your current system too...

Congrats!!!

jblnut

MikeBrewster77
01-25-2011, 02:39 PM
Mmmmm, speaker porn.

:yes: That's what I think every time I walk into the room they're in; then I remind myself that it's my room, and they're really there, so it's not porn at all -- it's the real deal :D


I guess I'm not the only one who's been a closet admirer of the TiK series! I'm so disappointed there's no one left at JBL to properly pack these things, or even answer a phone call when you run into issues, but it seems like "all's well that ends well".

Agreed, but you're right: All is well that ends well, and truth be told, I'd go through it all again.


They look stunning and I'm sure they sound it too. Can't wait to hear your impressions! I hope my 250TI's last a whole lot longer, but if they don't this would be a good road to go down I'm thinking. I've got the room and a wife who knows good speakers need to be SEEN to be HEARD (no silly little cubes for her).

If you don't mind, please give us all a run down of your current system too...

Congrats!!!

jblnut

Thank you! And you're lucky that your wife understands and has a distaste for cubes! ;)

In terms of current systems, things are a bit in flux now as speakers will be being shuffled around, but here it goes:

Family Room (and what I refer to as the "Statement System":p)
Luxman CX-100
McIntosh MC1750
Rotel RCD-1072
JBL PT800

Now, the PT800s have been supplanted by the Ti10K, and all of the upstream components replaced. This may or may not be temporary. The McIntosh really needs to go in for service (for one thing, the faceplate got cracked during my move) and I'd like the Luxman checked on as well. Once all of that is done, I'll do some A/B comparisons to determine whether to put them back in this system or elsewhere. At the moment, the Ti10K's are being driven by an HK990 connected to an HD990 using ridiculously overpriced MIT balanced interconnects (only ones I could find...:dont-know:) There's also a Denon DVD-1920 which is a universal player (CD, DVD, DVD-A, SACD, etc.) that is optically connected to the HD990, which has superior DAC's. Interconnects (other than the XLR's) and speaker cabling are pretty standard Monster fare.

Bedroom
H/K AVI 200 II, really cheap DVD player, JBL L46

Office (Warning: Non-JBL speaker reference ahead)
Luxman RX-102, Soundblaster X-Fi soundcard, B&W CM5

Basement
Yamaha RX-797, Rotel-1072, vintage JVC turntable w/ Ortofon cart, JBL Control 10

Porch (in season)
JBL Control 5

There's some miscellaneous stuff down in the basement too -- a few receivers, a few turntables, a set of Mirage Nanostats from when I had a 5.1 setup, etc. Enough so that if I get bored, I can play with stuff :p

JeffW
01-25-2011, 04:56 PM
You must have got the last pair, I don't see them listed on any JBL/Harman links I can find.

jbl_daddy
01-25-2011, 05:14 PM
Harmon still has the entire series on ebay, ti2,4,6,8 and 10k's yesterday. The 10's are still $1200.00 each. I am on my iPhone so someone please attach the link....
Mark:blink:

JeffW
01-25-2011, 05:53 PM
Duh, I never thought about eBay!

MikeBrewster77
01-25-2011, 05:58 PM
I am on my iPhone so someone please attach the link...

What, there's no app for that? Sorry, couldn't resist ... I'm an Android guy :p


Harmon still has the entire series on ebay, ti2,4,6,8 and 10k's yesterday. The 10's are still $1200.00 each.

There's a single Ti10K on eBay, and two 6's. Didn't see any 2's. There's no such thing as a Ti8K :o:.

Ti10K: http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=JBL+ti10k&_sacat=0&_odkw=JBL+ti6k&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313

Ti6K: http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=JBL+ti6k&_sacat=0&_odkw=JBL+ti2k&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313

FYI - Look at the tiny, eensie, weensie, price difference between the 10 and 6. FWIW, I wouldn't buy the 6 on that principle alone, obvious performance differences notwithstanding. :no:

jbl_daddy
01-25-2011, 07:20 PM
Funny you mention that, my wife has the new 4g Eco with the live tv and I was thinking of getting one like hers. So maybe next week l will be an android man. That live ESPN is hard to beat.

I wonder why they are not selling the speakers in pairs????

MikeBrewster77
01-25-2011, 07:48 PM
Funny you mention that, my wife has the new 4g Eco with the live tv and I was thinking of getting one like hers. So maybe next week l will be an android man. That live ESPN is hard to beat.

I have the Epic 4G, and love it.


I wonder why they are not selling the speakers in pairs????

Well, bear in mind that they're factory re-furbs; I imagine it's just a matter of availability (i.e., quite literally selling whatever they happen to have there). I knew the third was available, and [briefly] contemplated buying it as a "spare" ... that thought was very quickly replaced by imagining how else I could spend the money. ;)

MikeBrewster77
01-26-2011, 06:33 PM
We have achieved close proximity to center lock! :)

I should probably explain. As everyone knows, speaker placement and setup is vital to good performance. For me, it's an absolute necessity.

All obvious reasons aside, I also have somewhat afflicted (for lack of a better term) hearing in my left ear. I visited an audiologist about a year ago who could find no immediate cause--I was hoping for a simple blockage or something stupid like that. They recommended a hearing test which I scheduled, but then had a work trip come up, I had to cancel, life got away from me, and I never got back. I know, I know ... it's on my to do list.

Anyway, this anomaly manifests itself as the feeling of somewhat of a fullness in my left ear. As a result, upper frequencies (including upper register vocals) and the sense of airiness one normally experiences in good quality stereo tend not to fully register for me on that side. In addition, because it doesn't seem to impact the full frequency range of my hearing, a simple twist of the balance knob just causes additional imbalance. Consequently, if I'm doing any kind of focused music listening, and there is not a very precise center, I start to experience listener fatigue in less than the length of an album. As I struggle mentally to try to center the image, it completely distracts from the experience, and I just wind up exhausted as a result.

So, in addition to all the reasons one should spend a good amount of time with speaker setup, this is an additional reason for me. That said, the Ti10K's have frankly been an absolute bitch to set up :p. 100lb speakers with rubber feet on Berber carpet are not easy to move :no:. Couple that with their irregular shape that means you have to make all measurements to the front of the baffle (rather than the rear of the cabinet) and the fact that they bow out quite a bit on the sides which makes getting the tape measure to the front difficult, and it's been quite a trip. I've had to step away at least a few times to keep my sanity, and I swear if I don't see another tape measure, laser pointer, or piece of masking tape in the next year I will be more than happy. I know, it's a nice problem to have, but nonetheless.

But tonight, I think I've finally come close! After using mono recordings throughout Setup Round VII (or whichever one I'm on now) I put on Roy Orbison's Greatest Hits, tweaked a bit more, and things started to really come in to focus. And for at least a few tracks, I inadvertently stopped listening critically and was completely absorbed by the music.... And it sounded DAMNED GOOD! :D

So, just an update for those waiting for listening notes. Setup is still in progress. It'll probably be a few more nights before I can share a truly experienced account, but so far, I gotta say things are looking (or sounding, I should say) quite good. ;)

gferrell
01-26-2011, 07:03 PM
All I can say is I am jealous. Enjoy!

MikeBrewster77
01-27-2011, 03:22 PM
Dear Future Ti10K Owners:

Those rubber feet ... y'know, the ones I was bitching about here:


100lb speakers with rubber feet on Berber carpet are not easy to move :no:.

Yeah, they come off. :rolleyes: :lol_fit:

Realized that as I went to put the spikes in today. Oh well..... :p

Sincerely,
- Mike

JBLAddict
01-28-2011, 09:34 AM
Dear Future Ti10K Owners:



nicely done!!

MikeBrewster77
01-28-2011, 10:42 PM
Setup is complete. After all was said and done, some compromises needed to be made. The room they're in is a bit smallish (about 17' X 13') so the speakers are placed about 14" away from back walls, and the LH speaker that is adjacent to a side wall is just slightly over two feet away -- the RH speaker is on an open wall. They stand almost exactly six feet apart. The left corner is still a bit "hot" but I'm looking at some treatment to address that. The room is pretty live, but not overwhelmingly so. I've also pulled the couch away from the wall quite a bit to try to get as close to the rule of thirds as possible.

It's inevitable that I'm going to make some comparisons to the PS in this post, but I want to caveat that with two statements:

1.) I did not run the PT800 stacked, and I ran them with a single non-JBL sub (a few different models, but only one at a time.) I tried varying crossover frequencies (in 10Hz increments) throughout the time I ran them. JBL's recommendation to cross them at 80Hz in a non-coupled situation is inadequate IMHO. Probably a compromise between optimal frequency response and sound localization. I tried everything from 80Hz to 130Hz over my time of ownership.

2.) I probably spent nearly as much time setting up these speakers (over a week at this point) then I have with most other set ups I've had combined. And there is still some minor experimentation I want to try.

So, all that said, these are exceptional sounding, highly musical loudspeakers. Not surprising, however, is that they don't sound too substantially different than the Performance Series.

In general they're one of the most balanced loudspeakers I've ever heard. Bass, mid, and treble all blend seamlessly ... given proper placement. I would say they are highly particular about location. When I had them closer to a side wall, it was like they were just vomiting big messy, indistinct, unclear chunks o' bass. Given that they're rather large speakers to begin with, this should be a consideration for anyone looking to purchase them. They're about two feet deep, and they ideally should be about two feet from a back wall (both for best bass response and to maximize soundstage depth), so you're talking an immediate four feet of real estate in your room for optimal placement. Like I mentioned, I had to make some compromises there. Placed properly, though, they're incredibly cohesive!

While we're on the bass topic, I should mention that I still need a subwoofer. Mandatory? Probably depends on what you listen to, but it was very noticeable to me when I did not have one in the mix. N.B., the product literature lists frequency response of 30Hz-30kHz, but the tech sheet lists it at a much more realistic 40Hz-22Hz +/-2dB. That said, there is NO shortage of bass coming from these speakers. And the dual 8" woofers do a phenomenal job of creating quick, clean, extremely robust bass, but as I mentioned earlier, not overwhelming; trust me, I have put them through their paces with some truly challenging dance tracks. This is not a "colored" JBL! I'll also mention that this is one area that I think the Ti10K outperforms the PT800's: To me there was always just a tiny little something lacking in what I would refer to as the upper bass. I'm not good with nailing down specific frequency ranges, but I felt there was a slight hole somewhere in that area. See caveat number one above before you jump on me on this one ;).

Mid range and treble are phenomenal. Vocals and highs are crystalline without being beamy, hard, or grainy; there's a great sense of airiness as well. You can hear every articulation and nuance in vocals in a way I've heard speakers costing at least 3X's as much not achieve. Anyone who's heard the PS is familiar with this sound since the drivers are virtually identical with the exception of the Ti10K's added 6.5" mid-bass driver. While I'm making comparisons to the PT800's, I'll add in two more here. I think the Ti10K images slightly better -- even given that I had to compromise on the distance I would have liked to have put between the two speakers. I'm attributing that to baffle design, specifically how it narrows at the top. I was a little surprised actually, because I thought not having the EOS waveguide like the PT800 might take something away from the imaging. Last note of comparison -- overall, I find the Ti10K slightly more "natural" sounding. I'm attributing that to cabinet design/heft, but what the hell do I know :p. And truth be told, I can't lie and say that it just might be psychoacoustic. But I hear it. Please note the repeated use of the qualifier "slightly" in these comparisons. I did not fire up the Ti10K's and have sudden revelations I never heard on a recording before; these are simply subtle differences I've noticed.

To summarize, having had some time with then, I absolutely can't believe what I paid to get these things. I truly feel like I stole them from Harman. For what they're selling them for (if there in fact is any reserve stock left) I feel 100% confident you absolutely could not do better for the money. I'll also stand by my earlier statement that they're truly worth every penny of the original MSRP. :)

hjames
01-29-2011, 04:24 AM
I thought it might be appropriate to link to the JBL literature on the Tik series ...

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Product%20Information/Ti10K%20-%20LITERATURE.pdf

I thought I remembered seeing a SUB in this series, but its not shown in that brochure ...


I love the look of them myself - and am interested in them too -
(that Beech finish, not the black ones)
but I have a system or two to sell off before I could do it ...

rdgrimes
01-29-2011, 05:48 AM
Comparing the ti10k to the PS, I would expect that the ti10k would have a slight advantage related to the time-aligned baffle. I always think I can hear a time-aligned baffle in action, although it's a VERY subtle thing to nail down.

MikeBrewster77
01-29-2011, 07:24 AM
I thought it might be appropriate to link to the JBL literature on the Tik series ...
Good call -- thanks Heather.


I thought I remembered seeing a SUB in this series, but its not shown in that brochure ...
Indeed: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?2070-Tik-Sub


I love the look of them myself - and am interested in them too -
(that Beech finish, not the black ones)
but I have a system or two to sell off before I could do it ...

You're certainly close enough that if you and Emma ever feel like taking a road trip and want to stop in for a listen, you're more than welcome. :)

MikeBrewster77
01-29-2011, 07:30 AM
Comparing the ti10k to the PS, I would expect that the ti10k would have a slight advantage related to the time-aligned baffle. I always think I can hear a time-aligned baffle in action, although it's a VERY subtle thing to nail down.

True -- and you're right that slight and very subtle are both good qualifiers. :yes:

JBLAddict
01-29-2011, 09:11 AM
Great report Mike! Really appreciate the detail. One question: one very strong statement made over time has been that of the tweeter being world class. Standing by itself, how would you compare to that of the PT800? You say similar MF hf between them but I've considered that tweeter a potential separator from the PT, expecting it to alone make the TiK outperform the PT

MikeBrewster77
01-29-2011, 10:49 AM
Standing by itself, how would you compare to that of the PT800? You say similar MF hf between them but I've considered that tweeter a potential separator from the PT, expecting it to alone make the TiK outperform the PT

Are you trying to get me in trouble? Asking me to say one's better than the other... :p

I can say this much -- it's definitely a hefty little driver. Wanna see a pic? Of course you do...**

49646

One of the things I mentioned earlier is just how cohesive a system the Ti10K is. Given that, it's really hard for me to single out the tweeter in terms of performance and compare it against another. And, truthfully, I think one of the highest compliments you can pay a loudspeaker is to be able to say that it's so coherent that all of the drivers blend seamlessly, making individual components irrelevant as you listen.

I'm afraid that's not much of an answer to your question. The best I can say is that overall, I find that the Ti10K images somewhat better than the PT. Whether that's a function of the tweeter, the baffle design, the crossover, etc., or simply the confluence of all of those is beyond my level of expertise to say. :dont-know:

Hope that helps [a little].

** I'm not, and never have been in the habit of taking apart my JBL's. I don't have the knowledge-level required to effectively tweak, so I prefer to buy them whole and keep them that way. The only reason I have pics of these particular drivers was the obvious need to replace them given the condition in which I received them. The pic above is actually one of the damaged tweets.

SEAWOLF97
01-29-2011, 10:56 AM
I historically was a single 12" LF bookshelf kinda guy...thot 10's were marginal and 8's were toys..but now 6.5 are the norm and 8's are regarded as big.

10-12 years ago I bought some AR powered towers with a normal 8 and a 125wpc internally powered 2nd 8 ...damn those guys really slam out the lows...now I have some a/d/s towers with twin 8's and no longer consider the 8 a toy.

all that said.....

I grew up in the 60's watching the great Ford - Ferrari duels ....the Italian cars were fast and beautifully engineered ...the Fords (GT-40) were somewhat less sophisticated , but had huge engines ....they stayed even a lot, but in the end..the Fords prevailed...Someone asked Carroll Shelby abt this turn of events and his answer was
"there's no substitute for cubic inches" .....

Now relating this back to speakers, I think the twin 8's can hold their own through almost anything, but in the end I dont think they can prevail over the LE14-Hx or many of the larger drivers...

Thinking abt that now...its prolly why JBL's best known speakers are regarded as "old school" ..they are big..current trend is small. :eek:



I can say this much -- it's definitely a hefty little driver. Wanna see a pic? Of course you do...**
.

if you look at its backside...the "Made in France" jumps out...its produced by Audax...there are a couple of threads around here about it and the relatively low cost. Should be a lot easier to replace ...if ever needed...than the unobtainium JBL tweets.

MikeBrewster77
01-29-2011, 11:47 AM
"there's no substitute for cubic inches" .....

And then just when you think you know the rules of the game, they go and introduce a 3.5L V6 that churns out 365 HP ;)

Your point is well noted though -- different strokes and all that. As I mentioned, coupling a sub to these is desirable IMO.


if you look at its backside...the "Made in France" jumps out...its produced by Audax...there are a couple of threads around here about it and the relatively low cost. Should be a lot easier to replace ...if ever needed...than the unobtainium JBL tweets.

Discussed at length in the Performance Series thread. I think someone came to the conclusion that the tweet in the TiK series was this one: http://www.cadaudio.dk/tw025a16.pdf

In terms of low cost (cost being relative of course) I think you maybe thinking of the PT800 tweeter, which is also an Audax and was determined to be rather inexpensive. If the conclusion above is correct that the Ti10K's tweet is indeed the Audax TW025A16, then you're looking at very close to $100 to replace it.

SEAWOLF97
01-29-2011, 12:09 PM
If the conclusion above is correct that the Ti10K's tweet is indeed the Audax TW025A16, then you're looking at very close to $100 to replace it.

most TI owners would kill for $100 brand new 044Ti replacements.



Your point is well noted though -- different strokes and all that. As I mentioned, coupling a sub to these is desirable IMO.

even the 250Ti's LF needs subs to fill ...I dont think the LE14 produces much below 32hz.


And then just when you think you know the rules of the game, they go and introduce a 3.5L V6 that churns out 365 HP ;)

you can tack on blowers , superchargers and the like to get the power , but each addition reduces the overall reliability ...Ferrari had smaller, but higher revving engines.... a big nudish v-8 was abt the most reliable. (Americans can produce great engines, tho my Ford V-6 is from France also)

even Carver had a little tiny incredible sub with 2000 watts on hand to run it..but once again..reliability.

HCSGuy
01-29-2011, 12:28 PM
I had to replace a damaged tweeter on my Ti2K's - $89 plus shipping and tax from Harman, $101 total (in 2009). Great tweeter...

JBLAddict
01-29-2011, 02:35 PM
looks more like the tw025a8 (http://www.cadaudio.dk/tw025a8.pdf) ?

about $70US (http://www.lamaisonduhautparleur.fr/catalogue.php?cat=19&idmarque=3) vs $85 for the a16

though all these years I had thought it was the a20 (https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=120&products_id=8194) and was a >$100 unit until now seeing the back of it for the first time

MikeBrewster77
01-29-2011, 03:11 PM
looks more like the tw025a8 (http://www.cadaudio.dk/tw025a8.pdf) ?

That would make more sense -- the DC resistance values on the a8 match what's in the tech sheet whereas the a16 does not. Good call. That's what I get for repeating something I read on the internet.... :lol_fit:

Titanium Dome
01-29-2011, 07:42 PM
Mike

I really enjoy your narrative on this process. Thanks for sharing it.

As you correctly point out, the more time and care you take with placement and room issues, the more likely you are to see positive results. It's also true that some compromises are inevitable, and a little extra work can mitigate some of those compromises. Good luck with your ongoing quest for balance.

Since you're doing a comparison of sorts between the PT800 plus some sub to the Ti10K as a full range stereo speaker, you'll never get the full comparison as the PT800/PS1400 stack is more representative of the Performance Series in a stereo configuration. In that configuration, there are two 14" drivers operating up to 130 Hz, and the bottom end is significantly enhanced in a PS stack.

I've never had the Ti10K and a PS stack in the same room, so I have no direct comparison to give, either. Nonetheless, experience tells me that the PS stack will outperform the Ti10K in those LF comparisons, but the Ti10K has a better form factor and driver complement up top. This you've already discovered. :)

You mentioned psychoacoustic influences on hearing. 'Tis true we fool ourselves with new stuff, imagining differences that may not be there. In a week or two this will start to settle out for you. It actually took me longer than that to settle into the belief that the K2s were actually much better than anything else I had. It was a little scary to think one day it was great and the next day it wasn't as great as I thought it was.

You may have a few moments of "Is this really as good as I think it is, or does it kinda disappoint me?" but eventually you will grow more attuned and either more satisfied or more convinced that there's a reason they never sold very well here.

I'm betting you'll be totally stoked, especially after you add a sub. The TiK sub is basically unobtainable, but it can be substituted fairly closely.

http://www.safat.nl/images/TIK_Sub_manual.pdf

A Revel B15a would work.

MikeBrewster77
01-29-2011, 09:49 PM
Doug,

Happy to share, and I truly appreciate your comments and prior dialogue :). I've really tried to be careful about in what regards I compare the PT800 to the Ti10K since I never experienced the Performance Series as it was truly intended to be; to even attempt to compare certain aspects of what I essentially had set up as a mixed satellite/sub system to a full range set of speakers would be unfair at best and disingenuous at worst. It certainly wouldn't surprise me that a 14" lower end could best two 8"'s. A lot of this comes down to personal preference, which is why I've been as cautious as possible to not say one outright outperforms the other in any regard. That and I simply haven't had enough time, nor the right experiences to draw a fair comparison.

When you say that I might have moments of "Is this really as good as I think it is, or does it kinda disappoint me?" I can completely relate. I'm definitely still acclimatizing to the Ti10K's, and truthfully I'm not sure that there's going to be a clear "leader of the pack" over at Chez Mikey; that makes me very thankful that this wasn't an either/or proposition.

Here's a perfect example: I (on another thread, recently) mentioned that I picked up the HK990 integrated amp a few weeks back, and used it to substitute for my Luxman/McIntosh pre/pro combo. I also picked up the corresponding CD player (HD990) to replace my Rotel-1072.

I A-B-A'd the CD players about a week ago, and after much comparison found that I preferred the HK over the Rotel. I did the same with the amplification throughout yesterday and today, and as much as I was rooting for the HK to "win" it simply didn't. What I had was already better than what I acquired. The good news is the HK will easily be re-purposed throughout the house (I did hedge my bets when buying it) but there was a moment when I truly thought the HK had the upper hand in the equation ...... if nothing else, it's purdy and convenient. Some or all of that maybe system matching, which is a highly nuanced and somewhat unscientific endeavor, or some of it might just be that (as honestly might be expected) higher-end separates are simply going to best a mid-fi integrated. Nonetheless, at one point I had myself convinced that the new was better. Not so much......

So yeah ... very well stated that we imprint what we want on our new gear initially, and then we second guess that projected impression, and after some time, it all washes out.

I'm looking forward to seeing what comes out of it all. ;)

JBLAddict
01-30-2011, 10:47 AM
As I continue to listen and post my impressions, I swear, I'll do my best to find something really, really negative to say about them just for you. ;)

so is it the seamless cohesion across the entire freq range, nuanced, natural airy mids and highs, or clean powerful articulate musical bass that I should take as the downside then? :D

oh never mind, I forgot they're heavy and have rubber feet that come off on berber :p

rdgrimes
01-30-2011, 11:07 AM
the biggest and most obvious flaw in the ti series is that they were never marketed in the USA, and are not readily available at 75% off retail. ;)

Oh, wait, that's true of ALL JBLs.

MikeBrewster77
01-31-2011, 05:49 PM
so is it the seamless cohesion across the entire freq range, nuanced, natural airy mids and highs, or clean powerful articulate musical bass that I should take as the downside then? :D

TouchÚ -- I did promise :p

So throughout the rest of the weekend, I spent a LOT of time with them. I also set up the PT800's in the basement so that occasionally I could re-calibrate my ears to what I'm accustomed to in an effort to balance the "new gear OMFG everything sounds awesome how did I ever live before this moment" euphoria we sometimes experience.

The initial thoughts I shared stand pretty much the same. There are a few things I've noticed that I wouldn't say are negatives per se, but are considerations if anyone were considering going down this path:


They crave power. I'm already looking at either getting a higher-powered Mac (there's a 270W on the Bay that's local to me that's really tempting) or sticking with my current Mac and getting something else to handle the low end.
Matching a sub may be a pricey proposition. Nothing I have truly meets the quality of the rest of the system -- in fact, I took the sub I was running with them out of the equation after extensive listening with and without it. (On a side note, that adds an extra dimension to Doug's comments about any comparison I could perform between the PS and the Ti10K's being skewed.)
Also on the bass side, I'm more than satisfied with their output; I feel even more confident saying that after having listened to them without a sub for the past two days. Every once in a while on a hard dance track, I miss the extra "oomph" a sub would bring, but overall there's not a lot missing at all. That said, if your ultimate priority is balls to the wall bass slam, there might be better options out there for you. Again, so far I've been extremely impressed by the quality and quantity of the bass as well as how it's balanced with the overall system, but much of this comes down to preferences and prior frame of reference.
I've read (on the forum, I think, but I could be wrong) a few comments about the tweeter being hot. I don't think it's an inherent flaw with the tweeter, but every once in a while I've actually heard it rather than hearing the system as a whole. It's never been harsh or glaring, nor has it had me grabbing for the volume knob. As I mentioned earlier, my room is quite live; I also think more power would be helpful. So, in addition to the bass traps I'm looking at, I need to find ways to deaden the room a bit.
Everything else -- placement sensitivity, size and those damned rubber feet -- stands as well ;). I also think they're a bit picky about quality of amplification and the rest of the upstream but that's true of any high-quality loudspeaker IMHO.

In short, I can see where owning these could be -- and so for me, will likely be -- an expensive proposition (room treatment + additional amplification + high-quality sub). But, if you look through the "low points" above, almost all of them are actually compliments to the speakers, rather than detracting from them.

Bear in mind, depending on what you already have in your system and your room, none of this may even be an issue.

So, there's your downside(s)! :D

MikeBrewster77
01-31-2011, 05:50 PM
the biggest and most obvious flaw in the ti series is that they were never marketed in the USA, and are not readily available at 75% off retail. ;)

Oh, wait, that's true of ALL JBLs.

:rotfl:

riwarren
02-02-2011, 05:05 PM
Just wanted to put my two cents in.

I own a pair of TI2K's, which I absolutely adore, and a rather unfortunate event happened the other week. I was moving one of the speakers (stand and all) to another placement of the room as I was refurnishing my living room, and as I was carrying it, the speaker grill came off. Anyone who owns a TI model knows that the speaker grills are held in place by cast iron rods. Almost instantly one of those rods got SUCKED right into the TI025K tweeter's dome due to the massive magnet hidden behind it.

I will own up to it, I was literally in tears. :crying:

The diaphragm of the dome tweeter looked just like the one in the photos of the original post of this thread. Crushed inwards. However, it did not actually tear.

The next day I started unscrewing the tweeter from the cabinet, and took it apart into a bunch of little pieces. At which point, I merely pushed on the diaphragm with my finger from the inside, and instantly it popped back out to a dome shape good as new. Could not even see any visible creases in the dome from where it had been crushed.

Took me a little while to figure out how to put it back together properly, as the coil actually slides inside of the magnet, but once it was back together, I turned on my DAC, Pre-amp, and amp, and held my breath!

The outcome was a previously crushed diaphragm that sounded as good as it ever did. I have since taken an oscilloscope to the tweeter leads and can verify that there is no added distortion from the previously crushed tweeter when compared to the other channel that has had no unfortunate events like the one mentioned before.

Anyways, my little tidbit.

MikeBrewster77
12-02-2012, 06:48 PM
Well, I knew I'd try it eventually.

57606

I was scared to, because I was pretty sure if I did I'd wind up with wall o' speakers and sure enough...

After running the Performance Standard stacked as both God and JBL intended, I came away with a few thoughts:

1.) They do a LOT right - in fact, far more than I expected and with a few surprising revelations having come from the Ti10Ks
2.) As Doug (and I believe a few others) have mentioned, PS really should be thought of as a single system; the actual mating of the PT800 and PS1400 opened up an entire new world from running them separately - even when running them separately crossed over at every possible point and with a very HQ sub. They truly work best when docked
3.) Performance belies even their original MSRP not to mention what they can be obtained for these days

All that said, I truly, truly missed my Ti10Ks after living with the PS as my main system. The temptation was far too great to see what they would do if coupled with two PS1400s, and when I made the fateful decision to hit play after having set it all up, I knew they would never go back in the basement after just a few notes. I may have hernia from carrying them back upstairs myself (I'm going to gloat here for a moment: I weigh 140 lbs soaking wet and I can carry a 110 lb loudspeaker up 14 steep basement steps - yay me! Cut me some slack on the bragging rights - it's my birthday and I had the annual OMG-I'm-getting-old-moment this morning, so knowing that I still have some pretty decent physical capabilities was a nice plus. I digress........)

ANYWAY

I'm pretty sure I've said from day 1 that the Ti10Ks should have a sub, and I'm more convinced of that than ever: actually, now I'd probably say they should have two. But the pairing has truly taken them to a place they've never been sonically since I brought them home. I'm still working on placement and how to best configure the room to give the Ti10Ks the room they need to truly open up and integrate the subs successfully into that arrangement (there's only so much room) but I'm pretty sure I've hit as nirvana-esque a combination as I'm going to have for a while. :)

hjames
12-02-2012, 06:54 PM
They are beautiful speakers - glad to know their sound matches that great look!
A pity you can't get the matching sub at this point ...



http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=12144&stc=1&d=1137016749 (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?8773-JBL-ti10k-SUB-SUB1500)


http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1999-tik.htm




http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=57606&d=1354500482http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=48462&d=1289356852
I'm pretty sure I've said from day 1 that the Ti10Ks should have a sub, and I'm more convinced of that than ever: actually, now I'd probably say they should have two. But the pairing has truly taken them to a place they've never been sonically since I brought them home. I'm still working on placement and how to best configure the room to give the Ti10Ks the room they need to truly open up and integrate the subs successfully into that arrangement (there's only so much room) but I'm pretty sure I've hit as nirvana-esque a combination as I'm going to have for a while. :)

MikeBrewster77
12-02-2012, 08:06 PM
They are beautiful speakers - glad to know their sound matches that great look!
A pity you can't get the matching sub at this point ...


I know - I'd do unholy, unethical, and quite possibly illegal things to get my hands on the TiK Sub. Le sigh........

rdgrimes
12-02-2012, 08:22 PM
Isn't it just an Array 1500 in different clothes?

HCSGuy
12-02-2012, 08:34 PM
Isn't it just an Array 1500 in different clothes?

Nope - 1 generation newer. Array1500 uses a W1500 driver instead of the SUB1500 in the Tik sub, and 1000w vs 600w amplifier. They are, however, cut of the same ilk, so at moderate levels they may sound very, very similar.

JBLAddict
12-02-2012, 09:48 PM
All that said, I truly, truly missed my Ti10Ks after living with the PS as my main system.

Do tell......

Titanium Dome
12-02-2012, 10:53 PM
http://www.widescreenreview.com/news_detail.php?id=5963

At the 2001 CES, JBL expanded its high-end TiK Series loudspeaker line with the introduction of its TiK Master Sub - an innovative powered subwoofer that incorporates JBLÝs BassQ DSP bass equalization/calibration system that automatically optimizes in-room low-frequency response - and its TiK Subwoofer add-on subwoofer modules. The TiK Series is now also available in custom high gloss lacquer finishes by special order, to complement the design and decor of the most sophisticated listening environments. More spectacular in appearance and performance than ever before, the TiK Series utilizes JBLÝs latest-generation titanium tweeter and most advanced design and materials, to attain a dramatic new level of fidelity and sonic realism.Paul Bente, JBL Brand Manager, pointed out, ""The TiK Series has achieved enormous success in Europe and is having the same effect here in the United States. With the addition of our DSP-based TiK Master Sub and our expanded selection of elegant designer finishes, the TiK Series attains an even higher pinnacle of sonic performance, making it more appealing than ever for the finest home entertainment systems and custom installations.""The TiK Master Sub: Built-In DSP Equalization For A New Level Of Sonic AccuracyThe new TiK Master Sub is the most advanced subwoofer ever created by JBL. This unique subwoofer includes a 600-watt amplifier and the specially developed Sub1500 driver, featuring a 15-inch KevlarĂ/cellulose composite cone driver and massive 32-pound motor structure for extraordinary low frequency output all the way down to 20Hz. The TiKÝs performance is further augmented by its built-in BassQ low frequency correction technology that utilizes advanced proprietary DSP equalization technology to compensate for the peaks and dips in frequency response that are inherent in every room. The Master Sub includes a microphone and calibration system that enables users and installers to automatically calibrate low frequency response using the supplied wireless remote to obtain smooth, flat, optimum bass response with significantly more realistic reproduction of movie soundtracks and music.In addition, JBL now offers its TiK Sub, identical to the TiK Master Sub but without the built-in BassQ circuit. The TiK Sub is ideal for use as an add-on in large-scale home theatre installations requiring multiple subwoofers; up to three TiK Subs can be linked to the TiK Master Sub and the entire multiple subwoofer setup can be calibrated using the BassQ room correction circuit.The TiK Series: More Stunning Than Ever In Appearance And PerformanceThe TiK Series is a stunning example of design elegance and performance. Winner of a prestigious GOOD DESIGN award from the Chicago Athenaeum Museum of Architecture and Design, the TiK Series looks as exceptional as it sounds, with bold, ultra-modern curvilinear enclosures. The TiK Series loudspeakers will be available beginning in early 2001 in a palette of exotic lacquer finishes, hand-rubbed and polished to a mirror-smooth high gloss.JBL TiK Series loudspeakers are crafted using the highest quality components and the latest generation of JBLÝs advanced titanium driver technology, including pure titanium tweeters, inverted dome midrange drivers and high excursion woofers that feature cast aluminum driver baskets, large edge-wound flat wire voice coils and additional refinements. The result is sound quality that is utterly breathtaking, with a remarkably natural and realistic sonic presentation.The striking TiK Series enclosures are not only attractive, but functional - their nonparallel shapes prevent the buildup of internal standing waves and provide exceptional stiffness and structural rigidity, virtually eliminating internal resonances. The cabinets are constructed from six individual layers of MDF, bonded and formed into shape using the most sophisticated furniture manufacturing techniques; they feature internal bracing and bituminous damping to eliminate any trace of midrange ""smear"" and coloration.Models in the TiK Series include the two-way, bookshelf Ti2K (1-inch tweeter, 6.5-inch woofer), two floorstanding designs - the three-way Ti6K (1-inch tweeter, 4-inch midrange driver, dual 6.5-inch woofers) and the four-way Ti10K (1-inch tweeter, 4-inch and 6.5-inch midrange drivers, dual 8-inch woofers) - the TiK center channel loudspeaker (1-inch tweeter, dual 5.25-inch woofers) and the new TiK Master Sub and TiK Sub.JBL TiK Series loudspeakers are available exclusively through select JBL dealers and custom installation specialists. Suggested base retail pricing for JBL TiK Series loudspeakers is as follows: Ti2K, $2400 per pair, Ti6K, $5000 per pair, Ti10K, $7000 per pair, TiK Master Sub, $5000 each, TiK Sub, $4000 each. Custom lacquer finishes are available at an additional charge determined by model and color, on a custom order basis.

-----------------------------

So a complete Ti10K and TiK sub 2.1 system would be $11,000, or $12,000 with the Master Sub. A 2.0 Performance Series system would be $6,600. That's two PT800s and two PS1400s. The TiKs were targeted well above the Performance Series, with just two Ti10Ks costing a bit more than the Performance stacks and, as Mike found out, without the power needed in the LF. The TiK Sub really answered that need.

The TiK Series and Performance Series are similar in the top two drivers, but radically different down below. A Ti10K and a TiK sub should roundly kick the P. Series A$$, especially if one ponies up enough to have two TiK subs, which is what I'd do. Then you're into $16,000 plus, but you'd have arguably the last, best JBL direct radiator system and in a beautiful cabinet. :yes:

HCSGuy
12-02-2012, 11:16 PM
Quick search revealed this:
http://www.avforums.com/forums/subwoofers-tactile-transducers/1348678-jbl-tik-master-sub.html

They only built 5 and sold 3 -yipes! I'd like to play with the DSP, though...

MikeBrewster77
12-03-2012, 05:19 AM
Quick search revealed this:
I'd like to play with the DSP, though...

Me too, though I have to say that the HK's EzSet EQ has done a really admirable job of smoothing out sub integration for me in the past.

4313B
12-03-2012, 06:04 AM
I guess that's how Parts Express ended up with all the drivers, they were originally intended for the TiK Subs.

Same driver as used in the Revel Gem, it came first and was known as the "Revel 15". I believe the designer still has a couple in his audio system.

BTW, wasn't someone selling some bare HB5000 boxes recently?

MikeBrewster77
12-04-2012, 08:00 PM
Do tell......

Sure...

Caveats:

Everything Doug mentioned about price point
I am running them with two PS1400s in the mix
The Performance Series is a marvel. Nothing I'm about to say is intended to take away from that at all. I could be more than happy listening to those for a long, long time (and have every intention of continuing to do so.)
I've done a lot of comparison of the two systems. I've listened to a single speaker of each (I find that listening to a single unit is very telling - it's something I've done for years when doing a direct comparison) literally side by side with the PS stacked and the Ti10K at full range, then also crossed at 130. I've run them both full range in the same room and with the same upstream. I've run the Ti10K's crossed at 130 (and other points) with the PS in the same room. I've tried a lot to really drill down and give as fair a comparison as possible. Prior to doing all this, however, I just moved the Ti10K's down to the basement the day that the PS1400s arrived and set the PS up in the family room. I mention this only to paint the picture that I really wanted the PS to supplant the Ti10Ks (primarily for aesthetics, actually, but nonetheless.)

When all was said and done, there were just some things that the Ti10Ks offer I wasn't prepared to give up in my main listening space, and so the rest is history. Which I guess is what the real question here is - what are those things?

[Please re-read the caveats at this point, with an emphasis on my total love for the PS]

The PS offers bass slam/impact that the Ti10K simply does not out of the box (thus the sub caveat.) Once you start getting above the really low end though, the Ti10K offers speed and precision that I believe the PS does not. I crossed the Ti10Ks to the PS1400 at every 10Hz increment from 40 -130 to do some comparisons, and once you get beyond 50-60, you quickly reach diminishing returns and the Ti10K starts showing the remarkable quality of its two 808Js
When you really focus on voicing, they're surprisingly different given that inverted Ti dome appears in both (they are different drivers ... well, at least different numbers - I have no idea what -- if any -- real differences there are.) Both indubitably perform phenomenally within the critical midrange. That said, you've heard people describing feeling like there was a veil lifted when they moved from one speaker to another? Yeah, I wouldn't go that far, but maybe a sheet of two-ply bath tissue. It primarily manifested itself on upper register vocals, but it was noticeable. And when I say noticeable, I strictly mean in direct comparison; it's not something I would have picked up on otherwise. There's also a bit more vocal texture coming from the Ti10K - there were nuances to quality vocals that while I wouldn't say were absent on the PS, weren't exactly as well-presented. I don't want to say boxy/husky timbre in comparison -- and those words are admittedly too strong to describe the difference -- but something along those lines

The PS also came across as more vocal forward, perhaps not quite as balanced overall. Function of a design goal being that this was a HT system? I'm not sure, but again, it was noticeable

The Ti10Ks are airier with a greater sense of spaciousness. Not really much else to say on that one - they just are
Same with articulation - notes (particularly string instruments, for example) sound more distinct and fully formed with a discernible beginning, an arc, and finite end
The PS throws a phenomenal horizontal image; so does the Ti10K. I did find that the Ti10K has a better overall soundstage: there's a depth and vertical orientation to the presentation (I believe Stereophile and the like use terms such as "three dimensional", "holographic" etc.) I found lacking in the PS
Biggest shock? Stacked PS was more difficult to drive than the Ti10K. What is that 400W amp in the PS1400 doing? I felt like I was driving it passive
The total tweakability of the Ti10K is an awesome feature, and yes I've had them tri-amped ;)
[Please re-read the caveats at this point, with an emphasis on my total love for the PS]

Those are just some off the thoughts of the top of my head. But even all of that said (and here's the rub) if someone were asking my recommendation for which to buy (which is a moot point really, but for the sake of discussion let's say you could actually get your hands on a pair of Ti10Ks) I'd probably recommend the PS. They're easier to place, they're easier to integrate, they're less sensitive to a bunch of different variables - in short, they're less difficult. I also have an Akita - those familiar with the breed might know that they're some of the hardest dogs to train, but when you do, they're amazing companions and you can't imagine your life without them. Ditto for the Ti10Ks (though just to be clear, I love my dog more than any set of loudspeakers.)

What can I say, I like a [rewarding] challenge...

[Please re-read the caveats at this point, with an emphasis on my total love for the PS] :duck:

SEAWOLF97
12-04-2012, 08:13 PM
Nice writeup Mike , thanx. Helps my understanding of those 2 systems

Titanium Dome
12-04-2012, 10:39 PM
Quick search revealed this:
http://www.avforums.com/forums/subwoofers-tactile-transducers/1348678-jbl-tik-master-sub.html

They only built 5 and sold 3 -yipes! I'd like to play with the DSP, though...


The TiK Master Sub was ahead if it's time I guess, but the TiK Sub seemed to be reasonably available in Europe and Japan if you had the $$$$. In fact, at least one member here reported having one. Now, who was it?

JBLAddict
12-05-2012, 08:10 AM
thanks as always for taking the time to relay your impressions of the Ti10K :)

I shouldn't say I'm surprised by your observations given the price delta + the intent of the modular PS vs. an optimized stereo pair.

I still love the look and driver compliment of the TiK and still have some regret not pursuing them years ago when the became my "first love" and were selling for 2700 ea on Harman.

but life is about compromises, and after watching Dark Night Rises with my wife last night, and barely paying attention to the movie because I was so immersed in the clarity, cohesion, and power of my PS HT (now with AVA7 power! :p), I know I made the best compromise for the money when also recalling the Oppo driven Dianna Krall SACD I listened to the that same morning while doing email.

In the end, I'll always dream of the Ti10K, but a balanced reality for me will stay PS for some time....

MikeBrewster77
12-05-2012, 06:33 PM
Now in the best sounding position they've ever been in, they take up slightly more than 1/3 of the real estate in the family room, but with them a full 4 feet away from the walls, the result is pure magic. And thanks to those who commented that the mini-review was helpful. I remember that when I first purchased these, they seemed to be a bit of a black hole/mystery in terms of first hand experience by forum members. Again, not that it's particularly material given how many (or how few, rather) hit the market, but nonetheless.

57635

On a sadder note, listening to a Dave Brubeck album in commemoration of his passing. A true legend...

JBLAddict
12-06-2012, 08:49 AM
I just said I'll always dream of the Ti10K, but don't need you rubbing it in with pix like this!! :D

Serioiusly, damn beautiful setup there, works of art they are...

I see that HK volume knob glowing, what's in the full stack?

Mr. Widget
12-06-2012, 09:54 AM
I see that HK volume knob glowing, what's in the full stack?I noticed it too... I have to think you would be even happier with a better front end. Those are very nice speakers and deserve high quality electronics.


Widget

MikeBrewster77
12-06-2012, 10:31 AM
I just said I'll always dream of the Ti10K, but don't need you rubbing it in with pix like this!! :D

Serioiusly, damn beautiful setup there, works of art they are...

Thank you! Didn't mean to rub anything in. ;) The pic is illustrative of what it takes to get truly good sound out of them - they didn't really come completely into their own without a lot of space around them and nothing substantial (TV, e.g.) in between. I suppose that's true of any loudspeaker, but they do seem to be particularly finicky regarding placement and setup.


I see that HK volume knob glowing, what's in the full stack?

It's actually a fairly straightforward set up at the moment. HK990 Integrated fed by the HD990 CDP connected with MIT Cable balanced interconnects and Monster MCX1S speaker cable. The Sony Blu-Ray is connected via coax to the HK990 allowing me to the H/K's superior DAC for DLNA streaming of music from my external HD to the system.


I have to think you would be even happier with a better front end.

Can't disagree with you here, though the HK990 is seriously no slouch.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/harman-kardon-hk-990-integrated-amplifier

Of course, my Luxman pre/McIntosh combo bests it as would be expected, but the HK990 offers bass management functionality that allows me to run the sub with near seamless integration. Until I can get a HQ active xover, I'll probably stick with the integrated unless I take the sub out of the equation. I'm about 5 minutes from pulling the trigger on the NAD M51 DAC. I feel like if I put the McIntosh back into the setup, then my weak link is DAC. The other nice thing about the NAD is it would allow me to completely move away from the need for a preamp at all. We'll see.....

JBLAddict
12-06-2012, 10:37 AM
HK990, top of the food chain for HK-badged units, I'm sure the bass mgmt capability, and Sony DAC allowance make it the right pairing over diminishing returns youll get otherwise while also losing that flexibility

similar to my comments about the PS series, what they do as a 5.1 trumps getting a "better" 2Ch setup for the same money, IMHO

MikeBrewster77
12-09-2012, 04:21 PM
It was a rainy, fairly miserable weekend here in the Mid-Atlantic so what better to do than have a little JBL shootout? Even had a friend who is not necessarily of a like mind spend a few hours indulging me (he has a 5.1 system almost entirely composed of my hand me downs, so he kinda owes me) and got some interesting insights from a fresh set of ears.

57669
What the hell are these black boxes and the f-ck they doin' all up in my grille?

All up in my grille - get it? Ha! Okay, moving on....

For the speaker comparison, the variables were controlled with the best of the upstream (HK HD990 CDP and Luxman pre) run through the HK990 as an amp because it allowed for push-button, on the fly speaker changes. With the amount of back and forth, it's amazing that switch still functions. The analysis was brutally surgical at times: repeatedly running the same 15 or 30 second clip of music alternately through the PS and Ti10K any time one seemed to do something substantially better (or worse) than the other in an attempt to really nail down the difference. I'm OCD - there, I admitted it.

Not really much to report I haven't already shared; they're both incredible systems. The only real surprise I came away with is that once I got past the wow factor/novelty of the PS stacked, I actually preferred the bass of the Ti10K. And anecdotally speaking, I'd say they produce more. I discovered this quite by accident when going into the adjoining powder room and the painting on the wall was vibrating rather violently (this was during the portion of the shootout we'll call the "stress test" - nothing stupid, just a somewhat-higher-than-average-listening-level evaluation.) Taken aback by this, I switched to the PS, adjusted the volume to achieve the same sound level (at this point, I had that down to a science) and went back to the powder room - quite a bit of vibration, but not as much. Both systems are spiked so coupling shouldn't be too much of a consideration, and similar results were observed when I then stood behind them in the corners and listened. Unscientific? Absolutely! Wish I had the equipment to measure, but I don't.

ANYWAY....

One particular piece of music did elucidate the differences for me (we're back to that surgical snippet thing again.) I frequently use the Alanis Morissette song "The Couch" as one of multiple reference tracks for evaluating bass. Sidenote: It's a great song that elevates the early 20's angst from Jagged Little Pill to full-on, adult existential crisis level. But I digress... In any event, about 40 seconds into the track there is the first of several what I'd colloquially call bass bombs. Lesser systems absolutely lose their shit here, or if their frequency response isn't low enough, simply gloss over it altogether. As expected, the PS didn't flinch and let loose with quite the powerful response. The Ti10K unleashed pure energy, and then pulled off the trick that makes this track such a good test - while the aforementioned bass bomb is still fully sustained, there are several separate bass lines that vary in tone, each of which the Ti10K reproduced distinctly with spectacular attack and speed. The PS revealed them (in and of itself a feat) but failed to enunciate them as transparently - they were lost in the bigger bass bloom. I tried this repeatedly, taking the level of the PS1400 down several notches and even physically moving the stack further out in the room (why does my back hurt again?) to see if I could replicate what the Ti10K had achieved. No luck.

I'm dwelling on this seemingly minor point only because when I look back on the notes I've shared re: the Ti10ks (or the TiTenks as I've affectionately nicknamed them) I think I sometimes marginalize their bass capabilities. The reality is they have what I can only describe as an understated strength - the PS is more forward with its capabilities and in a direct comparison it can make the Ti's seem like they're slightly bass shy, yet that's hardly the case. Rather, I think the PS is a natural evolution of a certain traditional JBL Consumer "house sound" if you will, whereas the Ti10Ks diverge a bit from that. As points of comparison to which I have daily access, I look at the PS as my L46s on some really serious steroids (humor me - they're analogous probably only insofar as they're a comparison I can make directly from what I have on hand - that said, there is a certain [distantly, perhaps] reminiscent sonic signature.) The Ti10Ks would be closer in flavour to my B&Ws. Which you prefer is very likely a matter of personal taste; I tend to prefer both, and am luckily in a position to continue to have both at my disposal.


I have to think you would be even happier with a better front end. Those are very nice speakers and deserve high quality electronics.

57667
Clearly the man knows what he's talking about.

Better? :p

Once I decided the Ti10Ks were staying in place (was there really ever any doubt after the last time I did this?) it was equipment time: three CD players, two integrateds, one amp, and one pre were cycled through in virtually every conceivable combination. Passive bi-amping was tried. Fun note: even when using the HK 990 just as an amp, you can still run it in DSP mode, meaning you can (and I did) still use the integrated bass management (so we were tri-amped at that point.) Not shocking that the results with the proper upstream were revelatory - system synergy/you get what you pay for and all that. I still think the one area of weakness in the system is D/A conversion, and that's the one remaining planned upgrade. More than likely it will be the NAD M51 (the reviews have been very positive and the HDMI capabilities pushed it ahead of the other finalists I had in mind - who knows, maybe Blu-ray audio will actually turn out to be a thing :dont-know:.) Needless to say the Luxman/McIntosh combo will be staying in place until that decision is made, and then I'll try the DAC direct to the McIntosh and see how that sounds.

57668
Stuck in the bedroom all the time - sometimes I feel like I get no respect.

Not wanting to leave anyone out of the fun, I even brought the little Sigmas downstairs and gave them some love too - they're a very cool two way and when they're fed a high-quality signal, it's pretty amazing what they can pull off.

Time to take an aspirin (these speakers are damned heavy y'know) pour myself a cold one, and enjoy the music minus the analysis! :D

rdgrimes
12-09-2012, 08:46 PM
Time to quad-amp the ti10ks, I'm betting that will be amazing. Go on, you know you want to do it.

MikeBrewster77
12-10-2012, 07:52 AM
Time to quad-amp the ti10ks, I'm betting that will be amazing. Go on, you know you want to do it.

Of course I'd be lying if I said I've not considered it. ;)

Alas, need to get the final piece of the upstream up to par with the rest of the system before I look at adding in additional amplification.

grumpy
12-10-2012, 10:46 AM
I'd suggest documenting the in-circuit voltage/phase responses at each driver,
as well as a controlled environment (within reason) acoustic response.

The passive crossovers are unlikely to be simple textbook filters in all cases.

MikeBrewster77
12-10-2012, 11:11 AM
The passive crossovers are unlikely to be simple textbook filters in all cases.

Thanks for the advice. Truthfully, the added complexity required to pull this off is probably more than I'm prepared to take on at the moment. When all is said and done, I imagine I'll likely just bi-amp them.

MikeBrewster77
12-10-2012, 09:19 PM
Truthfully, the added complexity required to pull this off is probably more than I'm prepared to take on at the moment..

In the interim, however, I did get rid of the strapping bars this evening.

57675

Titanium Dome
12-10-2012, 09:35 PM
Now, just get a pair of these, and you're ready to rock.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BSS-Audio-FDS-366T-Omnidrive-Compact-Plus-Loudspeaker-Management-System-/190755439005?pt=US_Signal_Processors_Rack_Effects&hash=item2c69e9019d

Free shipping, too!

MikeBrewster77
12-11-2012, 08:03 AM
Now, just get a pair of these, and you're ready to rock.

2012 audio budget just blown on the DAC upgrade; books are closed for the year. We'll see what 2013 brings. :p


Free shipping, too!

That's always how they reel you in!

MikeBrewster77
12-12-2012, 04:21 PM
2012 audio budget just blown on the DAC upgrade

But oh so worth it! :yes:

57678

JBLAddict
12-19-2012, 07:28 PM
57741

yeah, but try doing this with the Ti10K :p