Influence sound the most: amp or pre-amp?

[tom1040]

That is what I would like to know. I read in TAS on a review of McIntosh MC402/C46 that it was the amp (Paul Seydor, I think). However, in other rags and talking to a rep @ a high end establishment in Waltham Ma., he indicated it was by far the pre-amp.

I really don't need to know about the other factors, such as cables, wires, the room acoustics, but feel free.

Thanks.

[martin_wu99]

That is what I would like to know. I read in TAS on a review of McIntosh MC402/C46 that it was the amp (Paul Seydor, I think). However, in other rags and talking to a rep @ a high end establishment in Waltham Ma., he indicated it was by far the pre-amp.

I really don't need to know about the other factors, such as cables, wires, the room acoustics, but feel free.

Thanks.
Certainly the pre-amp！
We have a vivid saying:ppre-amp give the sound while amp give the strenth:bouncy:

[tom1040]

What about those pre amps that have "straight wire with gain" controls. Seems that is just a pass thru?

I am confused.

[grumpy]

Frankly, a pat answer will only get you so far.

Why the question? Where to invest more $$$ to maximize listening
time enjoyment?

A really good pre can be limited by a lesser or poorly matched amp
and vice versa. Do you enjoy using the equipment? Does it do what
you want? Do you enjoy time spent listening? Worrying about the
cart and the horse (and what's being pulled) as independent issues
is a mistake (IMNotSoHO)

"straight wire with gain" is a marketing phrase, FWIW.

[tom1040]

The question was due to me not knowing. I would like to understand this hobby better...bit by bit. I suspect my amp/preamp are 'good' together as a whole since they are the same manufacturer-McIntosh.

Perhaps, after I learn more, these questions will become answers for someone else.:dont-know:

Thanks all.

[JeffW]

What about those pre amps that have "straight wire with gain" controls. Seems that is just a pass thru?

I am confused.

While the "straight wire with gain" is just a marketing phrase, why would you want your preamp to be anything other than "just a pass thru"? Anything else suggests the preamp is altering the signal in some fashion. I think I'd lean towards a preamp that didn't alter the signal, personally.

[grumpy]

I would just suggest you listen to what you can and form your own opinions.

A few of mine:

There was a recent discussion here regarding Array 1400 and K2-9900 systems.
Both can reproduce music wonderfully. Which is "best"? I claim that to be
an unanswerable question, other than for the individual ... and even
that individual's opinion is malleable.

My personal preference, end-to-end, is more toward what JeffW described
(just pass the signal through, with minimum affectation). This is actually
quite difficult, and as such, one can live with limitations that least collide
with their preferences. Some actually prefer the euphonious coloration
of even-ordered distortion, artificial sound fields, tilted spectra balance,
etc... or have particular sensitivities to less pleasant "distortions" that
others seem "immune" to. I have equipment and tools to manipulate
several of those kinds of "pleasant colorations", but most often they
remain outside of the listening chain (although I -do- like listening to large
scale "live" recordings using a 3-ch TriField processor :) )

Once one has matured their listening preferences then things like
usability (including compatibility with other selected gear), quality,
aesthetics, serviceability, ... can come into play ... or not. For some
it's sound first, damn everything else ... for others, it has to be
beautiful and/or impressive. Honestly, I like a bit of both.

Mostly, I like my sound system best when I'm not mucking around
with it and it's doing what I prefer it to do: transport me, change my
mood, make me want to dance around, tap my toe, play air guitar or
drums, change a group (>1) dynamic, improve my quality of life ...

[ratitifb]

you said psychoacoustics :blah:

... and :yes: you're right

[badman]

I'm inclined to say preamp. There's more shortcuts and sacrifices in most preamps than in power amps, a lot of this is due to the more complex function. When you're dropping XYZ dollars on the fancy knobs, gold RCAs, extra machining, remote control, etc, a lot of the guts get marginalized, in many cases. People respond to these items so from a business perspective, they're what create perceived value for most listeners and thus sell units. Most audiophiles just aren't very good at listening past glitz- which is true for most human perception, so it's not a knock on them. Good quality switches and attenuators (you ARE using a stepped attenuator or a REALLY nice potentiometer, yes?) can easily account for $200 in materials costs to the manufacturer. Add in connectors and casework and you're up to near 2k in retail for a nice build- before the circuit is added!

The long and short of it is, there's more going wrong in your average preamp than power amp, so as long as you're using a solid power amp that mates reasonably well to the speaker, your effort/money are better spent finding an excellent preamp. There are a number of preamp kits on the market, some are better than others. Transcendent's grounded grid is a very decent preamp kit and will outperform some pretty pricey commercial gear.

I just finished an Aikido circuit build, and if I had to do it over for profit, I'd have to charge several grand to make it worthwhile. You can put the TLC in, when you DIY, whereas retail it COSTS.

[richluvsound]

I would just suggest you listen to what you can and form your own opinions.

A few of mine:

There was a recent discussion here regarding Array 1400 and K2-9900 systems.
Both can reproduce music wonderfully. Which is "best"? I claim that to be
an unanswerable question, other than for the individual ... and even
that individual's opinion is malleable.

My personal preference, end-to-end, is more toward what JeffW described
(just pass the signal through, with minimum affectation). This is actually
quite difficult, and as such, one can live with limitations that least collide
with their preferences. Some actually prefer the euphonious coloration
of even-ordered distortion, artificial sound fields, tilted spectra balance,
etc... or have particular sensitivities to less pleasant "distortions" that
others seem "immune" to. I have equipment and tools to manipulate
several of those kinds of "pleasant colorations", but most often they
remain outside of the listening chain (although I -do- like listening to large
scale "live" recordings using a 3-ch TriField processor :) )

Once one has matured their listening preferences then things like
usability (including compatibility with other selected gear), quality,
aesthetics, serviceability, ... can come into play ... or not. For some
it's sound first, damn everything else ... for others, it has to be
beautiful and/or impressive. Honestly, I like a bit of both.

Mostly, I like my sound system best when I'm not mucking around
with it and it's doing what I prefer it to do: transport me, change my
mood, make me want to dance around, tap my toe, play air guitar or
drums, change a group (>1) dynamic, improve my quality of life ...

What a wonderful piece of writing . thank you

[Regis]

I believe there is something to 'straight wire with gain'. You can even do away with the preamp if you'd like, as there are high end CD players that can control the output level. Some of the Sony ES units are capable of hooking right up to the amplifier. There are preamps that have every bell and whistle out there and then there are preamps that have just about nothing but input controls.

My BV Audio pre doesn't have any tone controls whatsover. It has no physical potentiometers or attenuators, as all that is handled by a small microprocessor for something like 240 volume steps. In my opinion (and that's all it is), I like my preamps to do the absolute minimum to process the music from the CD player to the amp. I went with a full XLR cable setup, from the CD player to the preamp and then to the amp.

If the recording is poorly mastered, so be it! If it is mastered well, it sure sounds great on my modest system. Some guys like tube amps, some like transistors and others like MOSFET's or even JFETS. Do the research as others suggest and you'll find something that works.

[audiomagnate]

If you listen to records or reel to reel, yes preamps make a difference. If not, then no. It's basically a pass through thing.

[boss1]

pre-amp influence the sond most might cost you more!

[richluvsound]

If you listen to records or reel to reel, yes preamps make a difference. If not, then no. It's basically a pass through thing.

Please explain what you mean ? Surely a signal is a signal . A capacitor will not discriminate between analog and digital !

Rich

[Krunchy]

I agree with Rich, I think Grumpy put forth a very eloquent explanation, couldnt have said it better myself.

Hi Tom,
I am not intimately familiar with McIntosh, have heard a pre once & really liked it (hooked up to an adcom amp). That said, what model amp & pre do you have, I would think that unless you have some low end Mc gear (if such a thing exists?) you should be in pretty good shape as far as equipment. Why are you curious about this now, do you feel its time for a change or that there is room for improvement (a slippery slope at best my friend). Also, what speakers are you using with the Mc, you may have listed that info else where, I'm not sure. As for wires & interconnects there have been a few threads here delving into those issues, so feel free to research there.

I've heard SS, Mosfets, Tube, SS & tube hybrids and they all have their charm, its mostly a very objective thing at least for me, but I have to aggre with this particular sentece from Grumpy....

Mostly, I like my sound system best when I'm not mucking around with it and it's doing what I prefer it to do: transport me, change my mood, make me want to dance around, tap my toe, play air guitar or drums, change a group (>1) dynamic, improve my quality of life ...


Have fun & let us know how you fare, pictures are always welcomed :)

[Eaulive]

Please explain what you mean ? Surely a signal is a signal . A capacitor will not discriminate between analog and digital !

Rich

I think he meant that since signals from a CD player or a tuner have basically the right output level to drive an amplifier, the preamp is nothing more than an attenuator control in the signal path.

However in the case of magnetic cartridges and tape heads, a lot of processing is needed to achieve the level suitable to drive an amplifier, hence the importance of a quality preamplifier.

That's what I understood... I may be wrong.

[yggdrasil]

A few years back I was convinced that the parts at each end of the signal chain influenced sound the most, hence that parts in the middle made less influence.

But later experience have convinced me that any lesser part will stand out. It is of little importance at which point in the signal chain it is located.

So if a test showed that e.g. pre-amps had more influence on a setup than power amps, then my conclusion would be that the pre-amps had higher performance variance than the power amps.

[Ducatista47]

I think he meant that since signals from a CD player or a tuner have basically the right output level to drive an amplifier, the preamp is nothing more than an attenuator control in the signal path.

However in the case of magnetic cartridges and tape heads, a lot of processing is needed to achieve the level suitable to drive an amplifier, hence the importance of a quality preamplifier.

That's what I understood... I may be wrong.
Yes, with higher output sources the gain in a preamp in useless, but you still need source selection and volume control. Passive volume controls do tend to be a big impedance mismatch and suck the life out of a hifi signal. FirstWatt has a frighteningly expensive active preamp with no gain, but it sounded terrible on my system. You just have to experiment with this stuff.

Whenever I can I use a high quality, small wattage integrated amp I have. Separates are not always better. Also, the best interconnect is no interconnect.


A few years back I was convinced that the parts at each end of the signal chain influenced sound the most, hence that parts in the middle made less influence.

But later experience have convinced me that any lesser part will stand out. It is of little importance at which point in the signal chain it is located.

So if a test showed that e.g. pre-amps had more influence on a setup than power amps, then my conclusion would be that the pre-amps had higher performance variance than the power amps.
That should be made a sticky, or at least framed.

And, what Grumpy and Krunchy said!

[Mr. Widget]

That should be made a sticky, or at least framed.

And, what Grumpy and Krunchy said!:bouncy:

[tom1040]

I agree with Rich, I think Grumpy put forth a very eloquent explanation, couldnt have said it better myself.

Hi Tom,
I am not intimately familiar with McIntosh, have heard a pre once & really liked it (hooked up to an adcom amp). That said, what model amp & pre do you have, I would think that unless you have some low end Mc gear (if such a thing exists?) you should be in pretty good shape as far as equipment. Why are you curious about this now, do you feel its time for a change or that there is room for improvement (a slippery slope at best my friend). Also, what speakers are you using with the Mc, you may have listed that info else where, I'm not sure. As for wires & interconnects there have been a few threads here delving into those issues, so feel free to research there.

I've heard SS, Mosfets, Tube, SS & tube hybrids and they all have their charm, its mostly a very objective thing at least for me, but I have to aggre with this particular sentece from Grumpy....



Have fun & let us know how you fare, pictures are always welcomed :)


Hi,

I am keeping the pre amp-I like it. I am thinking of changing up the amp to one of the following:

McIntosh MC501 mono blocks
Marantz MA9S2 monoblocks
Pass lab X350.5

I have an idea of the what to expect with the McIntosh but am unsure of the rest-other than the reviews. Anyone have an opinion?

Thanks.

[Titanium Dome]

Hi,


Pass lab X350.5

I have an idea of the what to expect with the McIntosh but am unsure of the rest-other than the reviews. Anyone have an opinion?

Thanks.

Ian, Widget, you have a possible acolyte in waiting here. :bouncy:

Tom, Pass Labs is very nice, but I'm not the advocate that these guys are. Hopefully they'll chime in, or you could PM them to get a response sooner.

[JeffW]

If you're willing to pay shipping, which isn't insignificant, you can have a 10 day in-home audition of the Pass X350.5.

[Mr. Widget]

Ian, Widget, you have a possible acolyte in waiting here. :bouncy:

Tom, Pass Labs is very nice, but I'm not the advocate that these guys are. Hopefully they'll chime in, or you could PM them to get a response sooner.Nothing new to say really.


If you're willing to pay shipping, which isn't insignificant, you can have a 10 day in-home audition of the Pass X350.5.A very generous offer. I would strongly suggest taking Jeff up on it as there is no better way to find out what you like than to actually try it out.



I am keeping the pre amp-I like it. I am thinking of changing up the amp to one of the following:
As has been pointed out in an earlier post, the weakest link in the chain will be something of a gatekeeper. I am not suggesting that your preamp is not excellent, I have no idea, but in my experience I have never been blown away with any Mac preamp and assuming for just a moment that this is not simple personal bias, then the Mac may render the amp choice less important. I am only suggesting it as a possibility and am absolutely not condemning your choice of keeping the preamp.


Widget

[JeffW]

A very generous offer. I would strongly suggest taking Jeff up on it as there is no better way to find out what you like than to actually try it out.



I don't have an X350.5, but a well known online Pass Labs dealer in Nevada has the policy.

Google "Pass Labs" and the first hit will be the place. You have to purchase the amp, they send it to you. You try it out and ship it back if it doesn't suit you.

I didn't mention names since I didn't want to step on any toes.

[Mr. Widget]

I didn't mention names since I didn't want to step on any toes.I assume you mean Reno Hi Fi then? You can mention Reno Hi Fi. I just mentioned Reno Hi Fi. In fact you can mention any dealer who is generous enough to make that sort of offer. Well, you can mention the other dealers too. :D


Widget

[Titanium Dome]

Well, you can mention the other dealers too. :D


Widget

May I mention Design Interaction? Oh, I just did. Unfortunately that's totally off topic, so I'm not going write Design Interaction again... er, dammit :bash: