Array 1400 at CES 2011

[CauYem]

I voted JBL Array 1400 one of the top 5 best speakers at CES 2011. The speakers along with Mark Levinson gears outperformed many set ups that cost 5-10 times more. Here are the pictures of the JBL/Mark Levison set up:

49382


Array 1400

49383


Price List of the set up

49384

[clmrt]

Besides the gear, where's the decorator's touch? One little plant?

Isn't it true this series is discontinued already?

Lot's of ???? from me, sorry. :confused:

[clmrt]

So I jumped on the S'phile site to see if there are any blurbs about JBL / CES, and the first thing you see is a big theater pair with horns (cool, but...). Then you see Westlake (!) selling $0.05 blocks of foam with holes made to keep cables the perfect distance apart, for $60.

More :confused: mixed with :wtf:

http://stereophile.com/

[Titanium Dome]

So I jumped on the S'phile site to see if there are any blurbs about JBL / CES, and the first thing you see is a big theater pair with horns (cool, but...). Then you see Westlake (!) selling $0.05 blocks of foam with holes made to keep cables the perfect distance apart, for $60.

More :confused: mixed with :wtf:

http://stereophile.com/

Wow, that's just the tip of the iceberg. Some people think I'm easily duped and got suckered buying over-priced audio gear, but a look through that link leads me to believe I'm not nearly as whacked out as a lot of other folks.

Some of it is best characterized by what? Absurd? Eccentric? Bizarre? Insane? No, no, none of those. I have it now: obscene.

[Mr. Widget]

Isn't it true this series is discontinued already?
No, the 1400 Arrays are still available in the dark gray finish... which I believe is what is pictured above though it is hard to tell in photography. The 1000 and 800 Arrays are the speakers that have been discontinued.

I agree that they are quite a bargain... not all of the crazy audiophile stuff is bad or stupidly expensive. Even though many audio fans/music lovers in the on line world consider "audiophile" a derogatory expression, I bet a random poll of the general public would consider the 1400 Arrays an "audiophile" system... I mean after all they don't look like furniture or disappear like a tiny Bose system.

Widget

[audiomagnate]

I heard the 1400s at the show as well. They started with a piano piece and I thought to myself, "Wow, that sounds like a real piano, but I'm sure they're going to fall apart on vocals and more complex musical material." Next came a Boz Scaggs tune and I was simply astounded at how "real" they sounded. I wasn't even in the sweet spot of the fairly small room, but I knew I was hearing something very special. By the time the remastered version of "What's New" by Frank Sinatra came on (which I own and am very familiar with) I had worked my way into the sweet spot. It was the most realistic sound I've ever heard from a stereo, ever, period.

When I told the Harmon rep how good I thought they were he immediately started downplaying them, telling me I had to hear the K2s down in the truck at the Convention Center. After I pumped him for more information - they had no literature on the speakers whatsoever - he told me that Greg Timbers had stumbled upon the vertical mid/horizontal tweeter setup, but since they knew vertical horns would flop in Asia, they have never really tried to aggressively market the Array series. It almost seems as if they put these on the market to placate Greg (a total assumption on my part) but that all of the marketing effort goes to the K2/Everest line. I mean, who goes to a CES show without bringing literature?

After hogging the sweet spot for about half an hour I left to listen to the new flagship Sonus Fabers. I'm sure this system was in the $500,000 plus range. Next I listened to the Wilson Alexandria x-2s with some incredible looking tube amps and associated gear. I happenned to see a price sheet for the whole system, it was around $670,000. These two systems sounded very similar to me. I would call them "polite." They certainly didn't sound anywhere near as real as the 1400s, but by this time I was starting to question my sanity. After all, the 1400's retail for a paltry $11,500 and use antiquated 1940s horn technology. How on earth could they sound better that the Wilsons which employ "anti-jitter technology" and which are constructed from "X material" which costs 14 times more than MDF.

I returned to the Harmon suite after a few hours of this audiophile insanity to make sure I hadn't lost my mind, and sure enough the funny looking 1400s sounded every bit as wonderful as they had during my first visit.

The next day I shuttled over to the Convention Center and located the Harmon truck out in the parking lot. This setup was more like a Disney ride than a somber audiophile listening session, but in between "rides" the nice folks at Harmon agreed to put their 7.4 channel Sythesis system into two channel bypass mode and play the two K2s with the same material I had heard the day before at the Venitian. Since I was the only non Harmon employee in the room I got the sweet spot. The K2s sounded excellent, really excellent but not as amazingly lifelike as the 1400s. To be fair, the truck had pretty horrible acoustics, no treatment, and they were using Synthesis electronics instead of Mark Levinson, so it wasn't a fair comparison.

I have been chasing the Holy Grail of a real sounding loudspeaker since I was in college in the 70s. When I heard Mark Levinson's HQD (Hartley Quad Decca) system at the Palmer House in Chicago at some ancient CES show I immediately went home and tried to duplicate it on a student's budget. I even founded my own speaker company, KAS Audio, and designed, manufactured and sold a line of speakers and subwoofers which hold their own to this day. After all, almost every speaker out there today, no matter how insanely expensive, ends up reproducing the highs with a one inch dome tweeter and a cone midrange, as did my designs. The Dynaudio/Morel MDT28 - or a clone thereof - that I used back then is still in use today in most megabuck systems. The difference is, I charged $1000/pair for my floor standing speakers not $200,000.

In short, I think the 1400s deserve to be in every snooty, tubed up audiophile salon in the country, where they would put to shame all the lifeless overpriced hokem that passes as "state of the art" these days.

[clmrt]

Great post, thanks!

And thanks for taking a picture of that poor plant, too...

[audiomagnate]

Great post, thanks!

And thanks for taking a picture of that poor plant, too...

It reminds me of Charlie Brown's Christmas tree. They were really pushing the Revel Salons in the front room, bringing the 1400s seems to have been an afterthought.

I swear my ears resolve better than my crappy cell phone camera. Here's a shot of the truck that had the K2s.

[4313B]

It reminds me of Charlie Brown's Christmas tree. They were really pushing the Revel Salons in the front room, bringing the 1400s seems to have been an afterthought.

I swear my ears resolve better than my crappy cell phone camera. Here's a shot of the truck that had the K2s.When I first heard they were going to do the whole Ringling Brothers and Barnum and Bailey thing I knew it was the beginning of the end... they don't even bother setting up tents... :rotfl:

I'm surprised someone remembered to bring the Arrays...

[Regis]

Checked out the Stereophile thread. The pair of $18,000 cables that look like 10kV high voltage cables cracks me up! To spend that kind of money on visual effects amazes me. Because anybody with some kind of common sense, knows that there's no way, that the inside of the amplifier or the speaker has cables looking anything like that. And even if it did, can you imagine taking that all the way to the voice coil? Looks cool, if you're a fool. I'll stick with the heavy gauge copper wire I get from Home Depot for my 4315's.

[Titanium Dome]

That Harman truck is some marketing genius's wet dream. It does a disservice to every product placed in it.

Widget's room at the CAS was better than that truck, and it was far from good. Yet the Salons, Everests, 1400s played quite well in it, as did the very brief K2 demo. Plus, he's had both 1400 and K2 in his personal room, and he still has his 1400s.

[4313B]

Checked out the Stereophile thread. The pair of $18,000 cables that look like 10kV high voltage cables cracks me up! To spend that kind of money on visual effects amazes me. Because anybody with some kind of common sense, knows that there's no way, that the inside of the amplifier or the speaker has cables looking anything like that. And even if it did, can you imagine taking that all the way to the voice coil? Looks cool, if you're a fool. I'll stick with the heavy gauge copper wire I get from Home Depot for my 4315's.If you've spent any kind of time at all around these people you'd know that they are anything but common. :rotfl:

That Harman truck is some marketing genius's wet dream. It does a disservice to every product placed in it.Most of the people at Harman are probably too busy watching their stock to care about much else. If they need to axe more people and outsource more of the company to get that <censored> stock up so be it. I'm pretty sure that 90% of them don't even know what any of this stuff is beyond "product".

[Regis]

"The Lotus Group's Granada speaker ($125,000/pair) combines 21st-century technology—a digital-domain crossover realized with DSP, including room correction—with distinctively retro loudspeaker engineering—frequencies above 200Hz are handled by a single Feastrex unit featuring a field-coil magnet and a paper diaphragm with a coincident "whizzer" cone. The paper used for the diaphragms is sourced from a Japanese "National Treasure" paper maker, Ichibei Iwano, and the surrounds are made from lambs' skin."

PS: The lambs were carefully selected from the high mountains of Peru and were certified 'stress-free'. DNA Genetic purity was laboratory checked by an independent and certified Swiss Genetics Lab. Only pure white lambs were selected and any color variations were culled from the small herd of 12 available lambs, leaving three for production.

[4313B]

"The Lotus Group's Granada speaker ($125,000/pair) combines 21st-century technology—a digital-domain crossover realized with DSP, including room correction—with distinctively retro loudspeaker engineering—frequencies above 200Hz are handled by a single Feastrex unit featuring a field-coil magnet and a paper diaphragm with a coincident "whizzer" cone. The paper used for the diaphragms is sourced from a Japanese "National Treasure" paper maker, Ichibei Iwano, and the surrounds are made from lambs' skin."

PS: The lambs were carefully selected from the high mountains of Peru and were certified 'stress-free'. DNA Genetic purity was laboratory checked by an independent and certified Swiss Genetics Lab. Only pure white lambs were selected and any color variations were culled from the small herd of 12 available lambs, leaving three for production.Lambs' skin!? For the love of all that's holy!!! Someone took Silence of the Lambs a bit too seriously...

[clmrt]

Maybe this all means that the 2-channel SOTA was acheived during the period between 1977-1986. Since then, the market has done nothing but gyrate, regurgitate, spin, market and embellish.

Innovations come and go, things are refined, build quality and execution move to the fore. But the fact that glitz trumps reality is proof that there's really nothing left to conquer.:dont-know:

[Regis]

Lambs' skin!? For the love of all that's holy!!! Someone took Silence of the Lambs a bit too seriously...

They did!:D You see, the Lambs aren't 'Silent' anymore! They're producing wonderful and sibilant music. It's not that baa-aad!:p

[clmrt]

Didn't Bose patent the whizzer cone back in 1991?

[audiomagnate]

So I jumped on the S'phile site to see if there are any blurbs about JBL / CES, and the first thing you see is a big theater pair with horns (cool, but...). Then you see Westlake (!) selling $0.05 blocks of foam with holes made to keep cables the perfect distance apart, for $60.

More :confused: mixed with :wtf:

http://stereophile.com/

$60 just gets you in the door, I'm sure we're talking hundreds to do a whole system. Cable muffs! Even the name is hilarious.

[clmrt]

I didn't even notice the different shapes on the table. Must be for specific "applications".

Scene at your local Audiophile meeting:

Gregory: "I say, did you notice Phillip happens to've place Interconnect Muffs on his speaker cables?"

Reginald: "Indeed! Oh, the horror! Should we tell him?"

[Titanium Dome]

$60 just gets you in the door, I'm sure we're talking hundreds to do a whole system. Cable muffs! Even the name is hilarious.

I guess it's a whole new world of opportunity, and it gives "muff diving" a completely new dimension. $100 a pop is about right for a good muff.

[gferrell]

I guess I need one of those $1800.00 power cords and a block of magic foam to get the most out of my Bose's.

[ronaltronics]

The Array 1400's Have been one of my favourites since day one of there release. A value and a Audiophile Bargin IMO. They have been on Display here since 2005/2006. One thing is certain I will not sell my display model's because I seem to listen to them about 3 to 4 times a day when permitting.

If your in The Toronto area your welcome to come in for a Demo anytime.......

www.altronicsstereo2000.com:bouncy:

[audiomagnate]

The Array 1400's Have been one of my favourites since day one of there release. A value and a Audiophile Bargin IMO. They have been on Display here since 2005/2006. One thing is certain I will not sell my display model's because I seem to listen to them about 3 to 4 times a day when permitting.

If your in The Toronto area your welcome to come in for a Demo anytime.......

www.altronicsstereo2000.com:bouncy:

So they've been out for five + years and I've never heard of them before? Were they at the 2010 RMAF? What did they retail for in 2005, and what does "BG" stand for? BTW I think that link would work better if you put the bouncy after the link.

[Mr. Widget]

So they've been out for five + years and I've never heard of them before? Were they at the 2010 RMAF? What did they retail for in 2005...I don't think their price has changed since introduction. $11,500 per pair. They have been at CES before but not part of a demo system as far as I am aware and I do not think they have ever been at the RMAF.


...and what does "BG" stand for? "Black Grain"

Originally the Project Array Series were available in two color choices. BG and WG which stands for Black Grain and Wood Grain. These names are confusing since both options were the same high gloss veneered wood with the WG being rather reddish and the BG being a charcoal gray. The WG option has been discontinued and currently only the BG version is available except for some remaining stock in the Array Series... no WG 1400 Arrays are left.


Widget

[ronaltronics]

The Array 1400's have never been at the Denver show, but in 2008 the Array 800's and 1000's were on display for auditioning.

[jpw]

As the owner of Audio Video Logic in Des Moines, Iowa, I attended both RMAF in Denver in October 2010 and the 2011 CES show. The 1400 Array was on display at both shows.
At RMAF they were on loan to a different manufacturer (forget who) and were not in the JBL room. They sounded quite good here and really got my attention. At CES they were in one of the Harman rooms. This demo was not quite as successful due to the room acoustics. They were a bit boomy and colored in the upper bass and were aggressive in the highs. The small size and shape of the room didn't allow much placement experimentation to fix the problem and it was also very reflective.

[audiomagnate]

As the owner of Audio Video Logic in Des Moines, Iowa, I attended both RMAF in Denver in October 2010 and the 2011 CES show. The 1400 Array was on display at both shows.
At RMAF they were on loan to a different manufacturer (forget who) and were not in the JBL room. They sounded quite good here and really got my attention. At CES they were in one of the Harman rooms. This demo was not quite as successful due to the room acoustics. They were a bit boomy and colored in the upper bass and were aggressive in the highs. The small size and shape of the room didn't allow much placement experimentation to fix the problem and it was also very reflective.

I missed them at RMAF, and I certainly know about them being at CES this year. BTW the name of this thread is "Array 1400 at CES 2011"

[tom1040]

As the owner of Audio Video Logic in Des Moines, Iowa, I attended both RMAF in Denver in October 2010 and the 2011 CES show. The 1400 Array was on display at both shows.
At RMAF they were on loan to a different manufacturer (forget who) and were not in the JBL room. They sounded quite good here and really got my attention. At CES they were in one of the Harman rooms. This demo was not quite as successful due to the room acoustics. They were a bit boomy and colored in the upper bass and were aggressive in the highs. The small size and shape of the room didn't allow much placement experimentation to fix the problem and it was also very reflective.

..So, you thought they didn't sound all that great at the CES due to the room?

[audiomagnate]

I wasn't the only one who thought this ridiculously overpriced system sounded like crap. From "Marty" at the whatsbestforum.com:
QUOTE:
Lamm-Wilson "Travesty" System

Steve, you're not going to like this but I might as well say it. The Lamm exhibit at the Venetian was one of the most disappointing sound demonstrations of the entire CES. First, the prices you noted in your blog entry are not quite right. The total system price as posted in Room 307 was $667,164. I won't go into every detail but basics are
1) Critical Mass System $92,800
2) Lamm electronics $197,160
3) Wilson A-II $158,000
4) NeoDio CD/DAC $25,300
5) da Vinci table $109,204
6) Kubala Sosna Elation cabling $84,700

The sound was a conundrum. On one hand, it was lovely; beautiful in fact. It had definition, good frequency response, good imaging, and was low in distortion. However, there was one overwhelming problem. The music was LIFELESS. Absolutely uninvolving, sterile and lifeless. You could have knocked me over with a feather if you told me those words would ever come from me in describing what is arguably some of the greatest electronics I have ever heard (under different conditions of course). Sadly, I think my view was the common opinion of many listeners and reviewers we met in the hallways. I can't think of a better example of the absurdity of Hi end audio than this singular demo. This demo clearly refutes one common theorem of hi-end audio which is "more is better" when it comes to cost of gear. Wrong. And in this case, very, very wrong.

END OF QUOTE

Ouch!

[CauYem]

I wasn't the only one who thought this ridiculously overpriced system sounded like crap. From "Marty" at the whatsbestforum.com:
QUOTE:
Lamm-Wilson "Travesty" System

Steve, you're not going to like this but I might as well say it. The Lamm exhibit at the Venetian was one of the most disappointing sound demonstrations of the entire CES. First, the prices you noted in your blog entry are not quite right. The total system price as posted in Room 307 was $667,164. I won't go into every detail but basics are
1) Critical Mass System $92,800
2) Lamm electronics $197,160
3) Wilson A-II $158,000
4) NeoDio CD/DAC $25,300
5) da Vinci table $109,204
6) Kubala Sosna Elation cabling $84,700

The sound was a conundrum. On one hand, it was lovely; beautiful in fact. It had definition, good frequency response, good imaging, and was low in distortion. However, there was one overwhelming problem. The music was LIFELESS. Absolutely uninvolving, sterile and lifeless. You could have knocked me over with a feather if you told me those words would ever come from me in describing what is arguably some of the greatest electronics I have ever heard (under different conditions of course). Sadly, I think my view was the common opinion of many listeners and reviewers we met in the hallways. I can't think of a better example of the absurdity of Hi end audio than this singular demo. This demo clearly refutes one common theorem of hi-end audio which is "more is better" when it comes to cost of gear. Wrong. And in this case, very, very wrong.

END OF QUOTE

Ouch!

Are you talking abbout this >$650K set up?

[audiomagnate]

That's the one. I spent about half an hour in the room working my way into the sweet spot. I was not impressed, especially for close to $700,000. Now I read that some are blaming the lifeless sound on bad AC. Here's a better photo of the 1400's that I fouund on Sound and Vision's site. I'm assuming these must be the discontinued WG variation.

[Mr. Widget]

That's the one. I spent about half an hour in the room working my way into the sweet spot. I was not impressed, especially for close to $700,000. Now I read that some are blaming the lifeless sound on bad AC.My vote is room acoustics combined with some stupid choices... for example:

6) Kubala Sosna Elation cabling $84,700


Here's a better photo of the 1400's that I fouund on Sound and Vision's site. I'm assuming these must be the discontinued WG variation.Not as red as they look in person, but yep.


Widget

[JeffW]

My vote is room acoustics combined with some stupid choices... for example:

6) Kubala Sosna Elation cabling $84,700

Widget

$93K in amp stands?

[Mr. Widget]

$93K in amp stands?I missed that earlier, but it makes sense now... obviously that is where they went wrong. ;)


Widget

[grumpy]

Makes me wonder how far one would get epoxying $100 bills together
to form a laminated speaker stand...

[1audiohack]

Oh I'm sure if one looked hard enough a far more expensive composite adhesive could be found. Epoxy is sooo generic.

[JeffW]

Makes me wonder how far one would get epoxying $100 bills together
to form a laminated speaker stand...

I like the cut of your jib.

"Those amp stands are SO money!"

[tarior]

Most of the people at Harman are probably too busy watching their stock to care about much else. If they need to axe more people and outsource more of the company to get that <censored> stock up so be it. I'm pretty sure that 90% of them don't even know what any of this stuff is beyond "product".

I hear ya' man. I just bought some 2235 cone kits the other day and I felt a little ill seeing "Made in Mexico" on the label. Especially for what they cost. Harman sure ain't passing the savings on to the rest of us.

I kinda want a pair of the 1400 Array, but if they are outsourced I'll just sigh in sadness and stick with my L300s.

On the Wilsons; I don't care how good they may sound, they are damn ugly. They make the Vorlons from Babylon 5 look pleasant.

[sweet212]

I have never heard the 1400's but from what I have read here and elsewhere they are a combination of smooth mothers with a dash of JBL dynamics. Can't get better than that.:applaud:
Seriously I have just plonked down a heap of Federal Reserve Notes for a demo pair of 1400's in Arizona.
After having a 40 year obsession with JBL from Lancers, L200's, 4350's and presently 212's. I hope I have finally hit audio nirvana.
I will let you know.



Of all the things I have lost - I miss my mind the most.

[Titanium Dome]

I have never heard the 1400's but from what I have read here and elsewhere they are a combination of smooth mothers with a dash of JBL dynamics. Can't get better than that.:applaud:
Seriously I have just plonked down a heap of Federal Reserve Notes for a demo pair of 1400's in Arizona.
After having a 40 year obsession with JBL from Lancers, L200's, 4350's and presently 212's. I hope I have finally hit audio nirvana.
I will let you know.



Of all the things I have lost - I miss my mind the most.

Welcome to the forum! What a great way to introduce yourself, new 1400 owner.

We'll await your impressions, but it's hard to imagine anything but bliss for you.

[polar_bear_0104]

congrats sweet212....enjoy the 1400s..

a question:

while i heard and can confirm the 1400s as a mighty fine speakers for rock, electronic music, even old school jazz, i'm not sure how it will handle minimalist vocals or chamber music with natural acoustics, and minimal processing in the studio...

also i should note, i only heard the 1400s with tube amps (el34s), which was lively but not bright....i'm not sure if solid state will fare as well. doesn't the sound turn bright? i can only assume a MOSFET amp with its rounder sound may tame the balance.

your thoughts, especially from the owners.

cheers

[timc]

Have listened to the 1400's with both tubes and SS. In my oppinion you have to do something really wrong to make them sound bright, or harsh. The room is the most probable culprit if it sounds wrong.

In my view it is easier to go wrong with the K2's (9800). They are balancing on a knifes edge, and can easily be pushed the wrong way. The rewards when done right is worth it though.

[polar_bear_0104]

thank you for the insight tim. cheers

[badman]

I hear ya' man. I just bought some 2235 cone kits the other day and I felt a little ill seeing "Made in Mexico" on the label. Especially for what they cost. Harman sure ain't passing the savings on to the rest of us.

I kinda want a pair of the 1400 Array, but if they are outsourced I'll just sigh in sadness and stick with my L300s.

When I found out Harman acquired selenium, I quickly snagged a pair of Selenium D2500ti drivers and replacement phragms. The quality will only go down. Way to trash on of the great names in hifi you weasels, now I buy cheap gear before you get your hands on it and wreck it!



On the Wilsons; I don't care how good they may sound, they are damn ugly. They make the Vorlons from Babylon 5 look pleasant.

Not to worry. They don't sound that great.. or even good :)

[Mr. Widget]

I kinda want a pair of the 1400 Array, but if they are outsourced I'll just sigh in sadness and stick with my L300s.Well... the cabinets for the "Made in USA" 1400 Arrays were made in China with US made drivers and final assembly. I am not sure but I imagine the networks were built in China as well. Now that the Arrays will be "Made in Mexico", I assume the only change will be the location of the driver fabrication and the final assembly. They will likely have initial hiccups, but there is no reason that production can't eventually be up to spec.

That said, I still think those responsible for this short sighted move be kicked off the plane without their golden parachutes.


congrats sweet212....enjoy the 1400s..
:yes:



while i heard and can confirm the 1400s as a mighty fine speakers for rock, electronic music, even old school jazz, i'm not sure how it will handle minimalist vocals or chamber music with natural acoustics, and minimal processing in the studio...

also i should note, i only heard the 1400s with tube amps (el34s), which was lively but not bright....i'm not sure if solid state will fare as well. doesn't the sound turn bright? i can only assume a MOSFET amp with its rounder sound may tame the balance.

I think that this falls into the realm of personal taste and perception. I listen to acoustic and electronic music of many genres and I have found the 1400 Arrays to handle every type of music with grace.


Widget

[Robh3606]

while i heard and can confirm the 1400s as a mighty fine speakers for rock, electronic music, even old school jazz, i'm not sure how it will handle minimalist vocals or chamber music with natural acoustics, and minimal processing in the studio...

also i should note, i only heard the 1400s with tube amps (el34s), which was lively but not bright....i'm not sure if solid state will fare as well. doesn't the sound turn bright? i can only assume a MOSFET amp with its rounder sound may tame the balance.

your thoughts, especially from the owners.

cheers

I have to agree with Widget. I have not found anything to trip them up as well.

Rob:)

[audiomagnate]

I have never heard the 1400's but from what I have read here and elsewhere they are a combination of smooth mothers with a dash of JBL dynamics. Can't get better than that.:applaud:
Seriously I have just plonked down a heap of Federal Reserve Notes for a demo pair of 1400's in Arizona.
After having a 40 year obsession with JBL from Lancers, L200's, 4350's and presently 212's. I hope I have finally hit audio nirvana.
I will let you know.



Of all the things I have lost - I miss my mind the most.
Look elsewhere. These people are mean.

[MikeBrewster77]

Look elsewhere. These people are mean.

:confused:

[polar_bear_0104]

:confused:

double that...:confused::confused:

[audiomagnate]

"I have never heard the 1400's but from what I have read here and elsewhere they are a combination of smooth mothers with a dash of JBL dynamics. Can't get better than that"

That's all I'm saying. A JBL an audiophile could fall in live with.

[audiomagnate]

I didn't get an obtuse joke from Titanium, but it's all good.

[tarior]

Well... the cabinets for the "Made in USA" 1400 Arrays were made in China with US made drivers and final assembly. I am not sure but I imagine the networks were built in China as well. Now that the Arrays will be "Made in Mexico", I assume the only change will be the location of the driver fabrication and the final assembly. They will likely have initial hiccups, but there is no reason that production can't eventually be up to spec.






Widget
I just have a major problem with buying a product from an American company that isn't US made. Especially considering the price. It's got a Made in USA price tag, but but built overseas. In my mind that is total B.S.

[audiomagnate]

I worked for Nakamichi at the end (early 90's). One of my goofy assignments was to figure out exactly how little USA input would be required to stick a "Made in USA" sticker on an upcoming product line. I'm not a lawyer, so I don't even know why they asked me. That's how crazy it was back then. But we did get that 1000 series out which was just glorious.

[audiomagnate]

I just have a major problem with buying a product from an American company that isn't US made. Especially considering the price. It's got a Made in USA price tag, but but built overseas. In my mind that is total B.S.

That's just the way things are these days so I don't let it bother me anymore. Back on topic, do you think that the market failure of this series - the 800s and 1000s are NLA- all we have is GT's most glorious triumph, is due to:

1. How incredibly ugly they are?
2. Overpriceing?
3. Horn prejudice?

These are amazing speakers, I just don't get it.

[Titanium Dome]

That's just the way things are these days so I don't let it bother me anymore. Back on topic, do you think that the market failure of this series - the 800s and 1000s are NLA- all we have is GT's most glorious triumph, is due to:

1. How incredibly ugly they are?
2. Overpriceing?
3. Horn prejudice?

These are amazing speakers, I just don't get it.

Beauty will always be in the eye of the beholder. I find the Array Series to be more attractive than at least half of the speakers on the market. Others don't like their looks. I'd say that's the least likely cause, as many folks buy really ugly stuff that's more expensive.

Overpricing could be a factor, if you're talking about the perception that they cost too much. At full retail they're probably about right given the normal margins on a such a product, but the perception among the average person is that's way too much for a pair of speakers. "Hey, I can get Bose, Polk, or Klipsch for less than that." Then the second part of the value equation comes in: "They cost how much and they're JBLs? Are you kidding, I saw some JBLs at Best Buy, and they're not worth that much. I know a guy who bought some used JBLs for $2000 that were huge, but they were from when JBL was good."

I think horn prejudice may be a small factor among the high end crowd. The average person doesn't care, again because they'll never spend that much and if they did it wouldn't be on JBL.

IMO the biggest factor is a failure on Harman's part to sell the product. I got the feeling it was almost a deliberate neglect, as if to say, "See we built these weird, high end speakers, and nobody bought them. The market segment is gone elsewhere. Now let's get back to the iPod docks and car systems where the real money is." Of course, if there's no advertising, no place to audition them, no dealer network that wants to support them, and no way you can sell a $5k+, $8k+ or $11k+ set of speakers over the Internet and effectively ship them, then I think the outcome is predictable.

[doodle6]

But they DO sell that stuff in Japan. They DO understand that there's a market for their high end. Now that they have some positive Audiophile reviews, why don't they try to market here in the US?

[MikeBrewster77]

1. How incredibly ugly they are?
:no: Personally, I think the walnut cab models are hot. Aesthetics are a very personal thing -- I saw some monster $80K speakers just today in a high-end audio store that I thought were the ugliest things I'd ever seen. I was told they actually do sell...


2. Overpriceing?
:no: Related to having been in a high-end store today, I heard loudspeakers costing double the MSRP of either my PS or TiK that simply didn't come close to out-classing them. I actually think these are very competitively priced given what they offer.


3. Horn prejudice?
:no: Nah, doesn't seem to impact Klipsch's ability to sell high-end loudspeakers. People willing to spend the kind of money we're discussing here on audio equipment buy what sounds good -- provided they can hear them to reach that determination.


These are amazing speakers, I just don't get it.

Let me help:
1.) Focus on other segments (auto, portable, etc.)
2.) Piss poor marketing
3.) Lack of dealer network
4.) Virtual abandonment of US as a target market
5.) Subsequent domestic brand reputation dilution

And at the end of the day, most people are simply unwilling to plunk down $11.5K on speakers they can't hear from a brand they associate with cheap plastic iPod docking stations.* It really is that simple.

*Emphasis on cheap and plastic because some higher-end speaker companies do manage to market these types of gadgets and maintain their brand exclusivity (B&W comes to mind as an example.) Again, it's largely dependent on marketing & maintaining a certain quality level across your entire product line.

[doodle6]

I heard the 1400s at the show as well. They started with a piano piece and I thought to myself, "Wow, that sounds like a real piano, but I'm sure they're going to fall apart on vocals and more complex musical material." Next came a Boz Scaggs tune and I was simply astounded at how "real" they sounded. I wasn't even in the sweet spot of the fairly small room, but I knew I was hearing something very special. By the time the remastered version of "What's New" by Frank Sinatra came on (which I own and am very familiar with) I had worked my way into the sweet spot. It was the most realistic sound I've ever heard from a stereo, ever, period.

When I told the Harmon rep how good I thought they were he immediately started downplaying them, telling me I had to hear the K2s down in the truck at the Convention Center. After I pumped him for more information - they had no literature on the speakers whatsoever - he told me that Greg Timbers had stumbled upon the vertical mid/horizontal tweeter setup, but since they knew vertical horns would flop in Asia, they have never really tried to aggressively market the Array series. It almost seems as if they put these on the market to placate Greg (a total assumption on my part) but that all of the marketing effort goes to the K2/Everest line. I mean, who goes to a CES show without bringing literature?

After hogging the sweet spot for about half an hour I left to listen to the new flagship Sonus Fabers. I'm sure this system was in the $500,000 plus range. Next I listened to the Wilson Alexandria x-2s with some incredible looking tube amps and associated gear. I happenned to see a price sheet for the whole system, it was around $670,000. These two systems sounded very similar to me. I would call them "polite." They certainly didn't sound anywhere near as real as the 1400s, but by this time I was starting to question my sanity. After all, the 1400's retail for a paltry $11,500 and use antiquated 1940s horn technology. How on earth could they sound better that the Wilsons which employ "anti-jitter technology" and which are constructed from "X material" which costs 14 times more than MDF.

I returned to the Harmon suite after a few hours of this audiophile insanity to make sure I hadn't lost my mind, and sure enough the funny looking 1400s sounded every bit as wonderful as they had during my first visit.

The next day I shuttled over to the Convention Center and located the Harmon truck out in the parking lot. This setup was more like a Disney ride than a somber audiophile listening session, but in between "rides" the nice folks at Harmon agreed to put their 7.4 channel Sythesis system into two channel bypass mode and play the two K2s with the same material I had heard the day before at the Venitian. Since I was the only non Harmon employee in the room I got the sweet spot. The K2s sounded excellent, really excellent but not as amazingly lifelike as the 1400s. To be fair, the truck had pretty horrible acoustics, no treatment, and they were using Synthesis electronics instead of Mark Levinson, so it wasn't a fair comparison.

I have been chasing the Holy Grail of a real sounding loudspeaker since I was in college in the 70s. When I heard Mark Levinson's HQD (Hartley Quad Decca) system at the Palmer House in Chicago at some ancient CES show I immediately went home and tried to duplicate it on a student's budget. I even founded my own speaker company, KAS Audio, and designed, manufactured and sold a line of speakers and subwoofers which hold their own to this day. After all, almost every speaker out there today, no matter how insanely expensive, ends up reproducing the highs with a one inch dome tweeter and a cone midrange, as did my designs. The Dynaudio/Morel MDT28 - or a clone thereof - that I used back then is still in use today in most megabuck systems. The difference is, I charged $1000/pair for my floor standing speakers not $200,000.

In short, I think the 1400s deserve to be in every snooty, tubed up audiophile salon in the country, where they would put to shame all the lifeless overpriced hokem that passes as "state of the art" these days.I bought a pair of 1400s a little over a year ago, based on posts like this one. Earlier in the year, in the late spring, we had a pair of birds nest in the shrubs outside one of our bedroom windows. In the pleasant spring weather, every morning we awoke to them singing in the bushes at dawn. I stirred in bed one morning to that singing, then came awake enough to realize that it was still pitch black outside. I listened for a few minutes, then checked the time. It was 3 AM. My wife woke up as I moved around, then asked, "What's up with the birds? Is something stalking them?" We have cats and coyotes in the neighborhood, so they are vulnerable. After a couple of minutes of silence, the bird began again, this time from a tree halfway to the street and over to the left from the shrubs. After some wifely prodding, I got up, grabbed a flashlight and went to the rescue. Just as I opened the front door, it struck me. I turned around, went back to the bedroom and checked the stereo. We were streaming Carlos Nakai, including a track recorded in an outdoor setting, in a small canyon. We were listening to birds in his canyon, not to our own.

We all know that we can convince ourselves that we're hearing almost anything we want to from speakers that we really like or want. This was a completely BLIND experience. We had no idea that we had the system on. Both of us (and we worked for several years in the outdoors, taking out groups on monthlong backpacking trips in the mountains) were convinced that we were listening to our own birds, and both of us could tell EXACTLY where the birds were located. After that experience, I have nothing but awe for the 1400s. I've never before or since experienced that sort of absolute realism in sound reproduction. These speakers are nothing short of astounding in their faithfulness.

[audiomagnate]

I bought a pair of 1400s a little over a year ago, based on posts like this one. Earlier in the year, in the late spring, we had a pair of birds nest in the shrubs outside one of our bedroom windows. In the pleasant spring weather, every morning we awoke to them singing in the bushes at dawn. I stirred in bed one morning to that singing, then came awake enough to realize that it was still pitch black outside. I listened for a few minutes, then checked the time. It was 3 AM. My wife woke up as I moved around, then asked, "What's up with the birds? Is something stalking them?" We have cats and coyotes in the neighborhood, so they are vulnerable. After a couple of minutes of silence, the bird began again, this time from a tree halfway to the street and over to the left from the shrubs. After some wifely prodding, I got up, grabbed a flashlight and went to the rescue. Just as I opened the front door, it struck me. I turned around, went back to the bedroom and checked the stereo. We were streaming Carlos Nakai, including a track recorded in an outdoor setting, in a small canyon. We were listening to birds in his canyon, not to our own.

We all know that we can convince ourselves that we're hearing almost anything we want to from speakers that we really like or want. This was a completely BLIND experience. We had no idea that we had the system on. Both of us (and we worked for several years in the outdoors, taking out groups on monthlong backpacking trips in the mountains) were convinced that we were listening to our own birds, and both of us could tell EXACTLY where the birds were located. After that experience, I have nothing but awe for the 1400s. I've never before or since experienced that sort of absolute realism in sound reproduction. These speakers are nothing short of astounding in their faithfulness.

I'm happy to have helped you find them. There's a great review of MBL speakers (my dream speaker along with Magico Ultimas) in Stereophile where the reviewer discusses the concept of LFAR, or Listening From Another Room. I am a huge advocate of this testing method. It looks like the 1400s pass the LFAR test with flying colors!

[andywin]

I'm happy to have helped you find them. There's a great review of MBL speakers (my dream speaker along with Magico Ultimas) in Stereophile where the reviewer discusses the concept of LFAR, or Listening From Another Room. I am a huge advocate of this testing method. It looks like the 1400s pass the LFAR test with flying colors!

I've always used that test. A number of times now guests have asked who's plaing the piano in the other room, not realising it was a recording.

An amateur pianist friend who heard these in Munich http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/living_voice_vox_olympian_vox_elysian.htm thinks my 1400's give a more realistic portrayal of music. I'm not sure that he's right but it does tend to reinforce how good the 1400's are.

[audiomagnate]

I've always used that test. A number of times now guests have asked who's plaing the piano in the other room, not realising it was a recording.

An amateur pianist friend who heard these in Munich http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/living_voice_vox_olympian_vox_elysian.htm thinks my 1400's give a more realistic portrayal of music. I'm not sure that he's right but it does tend to reinforce how good the 1400's are.

I've heard them. Very nice, but I would rather listen to 1400's and my sub swarm to be honest. I really like the imaging of the the vertical horn.

[Space is the...]

I've always used that test. A number of times now guests have asked who's plaing the piano in the other room, not realising it was a recording.

An amateur pianist friend who heard these in Munich http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/living_voice_vox_olympian_vox_elysian.htm thinks my 1400's give a more realistic portrayal of music. I'm not sure that he's right but it does tend to reinforce how good the 1400's are.

I've heard them. Very nice, but I would rather listen to 1400's and my sub swarm to be honest. I really like the imaging of the the vertical horn.

Interesting, a few threads on a few other forums i frequent about that review of the Living Voice Olympian speakers , needless to say at £300,000, they divide opinions on what good sound is and what VFM is! i think for £300K i'd buy a nice holiday home in the CO Rockies!

I've not heard the LV speakers, although i didn't realise the maker is only an hour away by car, (but whats the point in going to listen to a speaker i can't afford! hopefully will get to hear them at a show) I'm looking forward to hearing the 1400s even more now after your friends comments on the speakers compared! Just got a few weeks to wait.