New here, and to JBLs; 4425 or 4430?

[Columbo]

Hi,

Let me first give you a short background on me. 58 years old and have always leaned towards "The New England" sound, my favorites have been ADS. I mostly liked sealed enclosures as opposed to ported ones, and multiple smaller woofers as opposed to larger (12"+) ones. For the past 3 years, it's been Maggies w/subs.

I listen to jazz, bluegrass (and other acoustic), some ska and reggae, mostly music with dynamics and percussion with good low bass and lots of bass notes (definition.) I've preferred the speakers that disappear rather than "in your face." Hated Klipsch no matter what. Lots of cabinet resonance and coloration.

Enter middle age and hearing loss above 10-12kz. I'm in a condo with a listening room that is only about 10' x 13'. With the hearing loss, I am missing many of my favorite sounds (triangles, etc.) and the "air" around instruments. The best wall for the speakers would be the bottom wall with the window. I can maybe sit 6'-7' away from them, depending on how far away from the front wall they are.

So I've been considering going to horns! These 4425 and 4430 speakers seem to be a good place to start looking, and hopefully end there as well! But with my small room, I'm wondering if the 4430 is really just too big. Having never heard either speaker yet, I would only guess that the 4425 would have a better midrange and mid-bass with the 12" woofer, and mating better with the tweeter. Also a concern of mine is the possibly tubby/boomy bass from either of these speakers.

There are some 4430s for sale reasonably close to me, but I wonder if the 4425 might actually be a better match for the type of music I listen to, and my room.

Thanks for your help!

[JBL 4645]

I would make the room as almost acoustically dead silent free from outside traffic airplanes and any other outside sounds.

You want something that will allow you to hear within the limits of your handicap soft sounds to moderate loud without putting anymore hard SPL db strain on your hearing.

Try and make the room as one single straightforward shape even it means placing some stud-walling up in few places. Some of the bass will want to travel down some of these narrow corners and shape-shift the frequency to its likely, not what you want but, what it wants to do.

I think you know the score better than anyone else. Bass-traps up in few areas around the room to manage the bass naturally first as best as possible then use some minimal EQ to custom tailor the sound system.

I’d have the entrance to the rear I gather the bath-door with a false wall placed up in-front 16foot window! Get rid of it noise will want to come in from there! Block it up stud-wall along the front by a few feet where length of left sidewall just meets it.

You might want speakers out in the room or fixed into a baffle wall and part of the front would make a nice baffle wall if its even 2 or feet deep would benefit for a good sound, maybe?

Horns as you know have high sensitivity so I doubt you want them near to outside live PA or cinema sound level unless you want to loss 8KHz followed by 6 and 4 and then your in serious trouble! The top end of our hearing helps gives us direct to where sounds are coming from. Hearing loss is like having an electrical crossover frequency divider fitted to our hearing and then populously turning down the range from full spectrum to 500Hz it starts to go very dull!

Play safe! Listen safe!

But if you have it already sussed out...Good luck and welcome to LHF.:)

[Columbo]

You have brought up some good points. I'm not at all familiar with room treatments however! I could put just about anything in the room to control the sound, but it would be "hit 'n' miss" without someone knowing what they were doing. Possibly a false, free standing wall could be done along the bottom (window) wall. The bathroom door could be treated or made more solid. The sliding closet doors on the top of the page are mirrors.

I think the speakers have to be on the short wall or I won't be able to sit far enough away for a bass wave to develop and for imaging.

My listening is still okay, but it's no longer as critical as it used to be. I realize that all the latest tweaks will be wasted on me. Things like not having speaker cables on the carpet, using spikes, etc. I couldn't ever hear those differences.

[DavidF]

Me thinks your predilection for “lean-clean” bass will not jive well with the bass response of the big JBLs in a smallish room. My predilection for bass response with appropriate sound pressure puts me an inverse situation so I know how a big JBL woofer can excite room modes in ways interpreted as boomy bass.

Have you considered contacting Magneplanar to see if they have some modification suggestions to boost the high end a bit on their systems. Might by a shot in the dark but I would bet you would like to retain that midrange quality of the Maggies.

[BMWCCA]

I think the whole discussion of a woofer being too big for a room is bogus. The sound waves many speakers produce might just be too big for a room but unless you play at too loud a volume that might explode your walls, how can if make any difference? Twelve-inch woofer versus fifteen, versus eighteen—the bigger the better!

And that comment comes from someone using JBL 4345s in a 11'x16' living room! :dancin:

49324

[Columbo]

I have the Magnepan MMG. I think Magnepan would say to just step up in the line to true ribbon tweeter$. That's not gonna happen. They do midrange really well, but they lack mid-bass and lower, they present a "large but undefined soundstage" due to being dipole, etc. I think I prefer point source better now. I know....all this psycho-acoustic stuff drives us all crazy...because it's only in our minds!

I can treat the room, but not remodel it. I just don't know how to do that!

Would a few of you please respond to whether my thoughts on the 4425 are reality...or is the 4430 the one to have even in my room? BTW, I have 2 15" Velodyne subs in the room, only tuned to 40hz or lower. So they also take up some room.

I see there is an early and late version of the 4430. Is there a desired model or close enough it doesn't matter?

I'm going to try to hear a pair of 4430 later next week.

[HCSGuy]

The 4425 does nothing better than the 4430 and much not as well. End your debate there until you've gone and listened to the 4430's. If you like them, you'll have a hard time doing better for the money, though a 250ti or the modern Arrays would be good to listen to also. Good luck!

[DavidF]

I think the whole discussion of a woofer being too big for a room is bogus. The sound waves many speakers produce might just be too big for a room but unless you play at too loud a volume that might explode your walls, how can if make any difference? Twelve-inch woofer versus fifteen, versus eighteen—the bigger the better!

And that comment comes from someone using JBL 4345s in a 11'x16' living room! :dancin:


And corner-loaded at that!

In my space and with my little twin 6 inch systems I do not get the same the room booms as with the larger LE14H woofers. Same frequencies of peaking but reduced in magnitude. The larger JBLs can Boom while the small Vifas chuff. Same with the Klipsch Heresy that chops off the bass under 60 Hz. I equalize the JBL's response but not the others.

[BMWCCA]

And corner-loaded at that!The advantage of the large speakers in a small room is they end up behaving as near-field monitors; the room doesn't seem to matter. Think of them as a large pair of headphones with your whole body inside their embrace. I've always had large speakers in that room, the previous occupants of those corner spaces being JBL 030s in C37s. The angle is critical for imaging. The room just doesn't seem to matter though our cramped lifestyle, carpets, upholstered furniture, clutter of our possessions, equal openings at both ends of the room opposite the speaker corners, and the vintage quilts hanging from walls help keep the small room from adding much of anything. Now when you really crank them up the entire house reacts and you'd think there was a freight train coming through the front yard, especially on my daughter's favorite Transformers soundtrack.

Quite honestly, playing the L7s in a smaller upstairs room thumps the rest of the house with more effect than playing the 4345s downstairs. There's a ton of coupling going on in that space. I'm forbidden to play the L7s when anyone else is in the house! No such complaints with the L5s in the same room. :D

[Audiobeer]

The 4430s are hard to set up but when done properly they are fantastic!!

[Ruediger]

From the sketch I would guess that the 12' wall is the best for the speakers.

A very good book about acoustics for HiFi is the "Master Handbook of Acoustics" from Alton Everest. The book can be read without an understanding of higher math.

It teaches You about room effects such as "1st reflections", and what You can do against them.

Ruediger

[BMWCCA]

From the sketch I would guess that the 12' wall is the best for the speakers. Assuming the sketch, as drawn, is indicating the closet by the entry opens from another room, I'd put them 10' apart along the entry wall either side of the entry, with the seating against the 12'-marked wall. :dont-know:

[Columbo]

Thanks for the info on the book. I can't really make structural changes, but I can do just about anything "treatment wise" providing I have a clue!

The closet by the entry does not connect from another room. It's rather small and has actually has a 2-piece folding door. The most consistent "front" wall would be the 12' wall that has the bathroom next to it. Placing the speakers on that wall, and some say a foot or so out from the wall, leaves little room to sit in front of them without being against a back wall, or very close to it.

I've located some 4430s to listen to later in the week. Is there anything I need to know to look for other than good surrounds attached to the back of the cone? Early/late model? The seller does not know the history of his speakers as they were in a studio he purchased recently.

[Krunchy]

To Qoute Mr. Zilch.... "you want 4430s" :)

[mech986]

Columbo,

Of the two pairs of 4430's, each is asking near top dollar for them. For that price, the cabinets need to be in almost perfect condition, and the surrounds on the woofers should literally be new. You should be able to push on the surrounds and they should be very resilient without being firm. The 2235H woofer uses a narrow roll surround (around 3/8 inch) not a wide roll (1/2 inch or wider) and the thickness of the surround is thinner and compliant, not seemingly thick and springy to touch.

The horn driver is a crapshoot though because ordinarily you or the owner will not be able to pull it to check if it has ever been worked on or replaced.

Take some good source material with you that will explore the entire frequency range. For HF, use something with good sibilance, S-s-s sounds like brushed cymbals, or Sergio Mendes & Brasil 66 with Mais Que Nada is a classic sibilance test as well as indicator of good midrange and HF extension. On the SM&Brasil 66 greatest hits or classics, vol. 18, if the 4430's are making The Look of Love cause your foot to start tapping, Don't know what will.

Another nice new album is Basia, "It's That Girl Again", cut 1, If Not Now then When, and cut 7, Blame it On the Summer, will test the bass response, clear midrange and imaging.

Still, try and get these prices under $1500 if possible. Some 4430's have gone for $1000-1200 in the recent 2 years past so unless you really want these at the price they're asking, I'd try to do some dickering. I suspect a decent offer may just get accepted, especially if your ready to haul them back to Valencia area.

Didn't realize you had twin subs though, now understood why 4425's might be attractive.

Bart

[Columbo]

mech,

Thanks for the info. I know the pricing is "top dollar" right now. I'm really in no hurry and these seem to pop up quite often. Physical/cosmetic condition of course commands more money.

Do any cracks in the cheeks make a difference in the value and/or sound? Small crack, not chunks missing that is.

I was planning in taking stuff I am familiar with that has wide range and dynamics; Joe Sample (Sample This) Bella Fleck (Live Art) Jorma Kaukonen (Blue Country Heart) Lyle Lovett (I love Everybody) Manhattan Transfer, and maybe some Telarc orchestra stuff. I have Basia's first album too. And others that I might find I want to hear on these speakers.

It will most likely take two runs; first to hear them and see if I like them, then have someone with a truck help me get them. They won't fit in my car. I have a bad back and would certainly need help getting them up 3 fights of stairs! I would hate to take up a friend's day driving around if I don't like them. Then again, what are friends for anyway!! ;)

[Columbo]

I found the book that was recommended. There is a new Fifth Edition I guess c-written with someone else. Does it matter much which one I get? There are some used ones available.

[moparfan]

There are enough around that she shouldn't have to buy a pair with cracks in the horn. As for carrying and moving these, look on amazon for load carrying straps used to move furniture and appliances. It makes life much easier when moving these things.

[1audiohack]

I found the book that was recommended. There is a new Fifth Edition I guess c-written with someone else. Does it matter much which one I get? There are some used ones available.

Unless you are chasing the very latest in materials like absorbers and diffusers I think anyone not in the business would be just fine with a used fourth edition, or even an earlier one.

4430's are fairly wide dispersion but very well behaved off axis. I think they are fairly easy to integrate into the normal asymmetrical rooms found in normal houses.

And yeah, find a nice pair.

[badman]

To Qoute Mr. Zilch.... "you want 4430s" :)

I got to hear Grumpy's pair, and Todd's, they're very fine speakers. Can't speak to 4425s, but the 4430 is very similar conceptually to Array 1400s (look carefully at the horn!), and also to what I use (in some ways) and a DI matched 2 way is pretty impressive, done well.. 49487

[toddalin]

I got to hear Grumpy's pair, and Todd's, they're very fine speakers.

Then you've heard Columbo's pair. ;)

[badman]

Then you've heard Columbo's pair. ;)

Then the world is as it should be :)

[CountD]

I rarely see nice pairs on offer, and I rarely see them come up for sale...I searched long and hard for mine, and they are mint. I bought them a year ago and they were outfitted by JBL Pro with 2405s custom in the cabinet. I got them in Burbank, CA. They weigh a lot, and without a truck I had to remove my passenger seat to get them. Not a scratch on them, but almost every pair I have seen since then have been beat. Looking around as they made them for so long - longer than any other monitor, yet I rarely see them. Comparing them to the 4425 is kind of pointless as to me they sound nothing alike.

[1audiohack]

I bought them a year ago and they were outfitted by JBL Pro with 2405s custom in the cabinet. I got them in Burbank, CA.

Very cool. Would you be so kind as to show a picture of them? I would like to see how and where the 2405 is placed.

Thank you,
Barry

[toddalin]

I rarely see nice pairs on offer, and I rarely see them come up for sale...I searched long and hard for mine, and they are mint. I bought them a year ago and they were outfitted by JBL Pro with 2405s custom in the cabinet. I got them in Burbank, CA. They weigh a lot, and without a truck I had to remove my passenger seat to get them. Not a scratch on them, but almost every pair I have seen since then have been beat. Looking around as they made them for so long - longer than any other monitor, yet I rarely see them. Comparing them to the 4425 is kind of pointless as to me they sound nothing alike.


I remember that those were on the market for quite some time.

[remusr]

I've heard the Array 1400's and they are great, totally in another league to the 4430's which suffer from no top-end whatsoever. Unless you get a modified set with a tweeter like the 2405 mentioned.

[CountD]

I remember that those were on the market for quite some time.

If you think 3 weeks on the market for those 4430's (which cost me $1300) is a long time, maybe it is...maybe it isn't. They are the nicest ones I have ever seen.