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jasonyeo
11-23-2010, 11:04 PM
Dear friends , I have a pair of Mcintosh MC501s and the Array 1400 speakers . I am thinking of adding a MC275 MKV just for the horn module and bass running by 501s . Will there be any ill effect ? Can it be done ?

By the way , what is the sensitivity of the horn module alone ?

timc
11-24-2010, 12:02 AM
The sensitivity of the horn module, is the same. That is because there is passive attenuation, built into the crossover.

There is no reason why you should not use normal passive biamping. However, you will have to be able to adjust the gain to match. If you want to go active, the receipe is in the tech library.


-Tim

jasonyeo
11-24-2010, 12:33 AM
Hi Tim , thanks. Not going for active bi amp at the moment . Passive will do . :D

Just want to smooth out the highs on the Array 1400 when listening to female vocals . Maybe my room is too small for the Array1400 coz when listening to certain recordings , the female voices tends to be bright and harsh . Thinking of adding tube amps to tame it .

timc
11-24-2010, 05:16 AM
Sounds like you might have som trouble with first reflections. The horn on the Array should sound smooooooth at all times. It is far more laidback than the K2 and Everest. Try using some pillows to reduce your first reflection points. That is sidewalls and ceiling/floor. And perhaps on the wall behind your listening position.

tom1040
11-24-2010, 05:22 AM
What is your pre amp? I am using MC402 & C46-the eq controls work well. Perhaps a tube pre may be helpful?

polar_bear_0104
11-24-2010, 10:44 AM
i agree with tim,

what you're hearing is the sonic signature of the room, it's not that array. I worked in Sing for a while a few years back and I'm aware that residential spaces are a premium and therefore tend to be smaller than usual. If I were you, I'll work with a dealer who sells acoustic treatments.. ex. ASC et. al.. and invest in strategically putting diffusers, absorbers and bass traps in key locations in the room.

If you're patient enough, you can even research in the net on practical guides to improving sound using typical furnishings like book cases, etc. If you're a DIY, i have suggestions on what you can do, something I learned 10 years ago when I built a personal home theatre while I was still in the far east.

cheers

jpw
11-24-2010, 08:10 PM
I tried both the below solutions to some brightness issues with our floor model JBL Everest DD66000's just over the last two days. Here is what you can expect.

When passively bi amping like you plan, you will need two amplifiers, regardless of whether tube or solid state, that have the same db of gain. Otherwise an amp with higher gain placed on the horn for example, will make it louder than the woofer. The would be the opposite of the effect you want. You may have to call McIntosh for this specification as I would not assume that all MAC amps have the same gain. Input sensitivity, measured in volts, is also a specification that you can rely on. If the numbers are the same for equal power output, the gain will be the same.

The problem with the bi amping approach is that the brightness is almost always a frequency response error with either the recording, room or speaker. With bi amping you would be trying to correct this problem with the more forgiving character of a tube amp, which does not change the frequency response significantly. It likely will soften the leading edges of transients a bit and warm up the sound overall. But unless your existing amp is glassy or sibilant sounding by nature, the bi amping is unlikely to go far enough toward solving your problem.

Have you consider room correction or graphic EQ? If the brightness you complain about is intermittent based on the recordings, you may just want some EQ or even basic tone controls to make these recordings more listenable. However if the problem is caused by frequency response errors generated by the room or the speaker itself, you may want to try the new McIntosh room correction equalizer or something like it. The cost is about the same as buying a MC-275, the $4000 range. Personally I think this much better money spent as you will solve a host of problems at many different frequencies and very likely the brightness problem too. Another consideration is upgrading your preamplifier to the new McIntosh C-50 preamp coming out next month. It has seven bands of graphic EQ built in, perfect for program material correction and also some limited room or speaker correction. Hope this helps. John. www.audiovideologic.com (http://www.audiovideologic.com)

timc
11-24-2010, 11:56 PM
This got all a bit too comercial like for me.

If you want to spend the money wisely regarding small room problems, then $100 worth of room treatment is probably all you need.

jasonyeo
11-25-2010, 03:57 AM
Sounds like you might have som trouble with first reflections. The horn on the Array should sound smooooooth at all times. It is far more laidback than the K2 and Everest. Try using some pillows to reduce your first reflection points. That is sidewalls and ceiling/floor. And perhaps on the wall behind your listening position.

Hi Tim,my room is fully treated . Ceiling, walls , floors has been treated with acoustic foams(ASC panels,Auralex bass traps and foam panels,ecophon panels + DIY diffusors) . It just sounds harsh and bright on certain recordings :o:

jasonyeo
11-25-2010, 04:00 AM
What is your pre amp? I am using MC402 & C46-the eq controls work well. Perhaps a tube pre may be helpful?

I am using the Mcintosh C220 tube pre . I have 2 CD players , one tube and one solid state . The solid state sounds less harsh and bright than the tube CD player. Tube cdp is Raysonic CD128 and the solid state cdp is Ayre C5xe MP . All round copper cables except speaker cables is a mixture of silver and copper. Tested copper only but sounds more bright :blink:

jasonyeo
11-25-2010, 04:07 AM
i agree with tim,

what you're hearing is the sonic signature of the room, it's not that array. I worked in Sing for a while a few years back and I'm aware that residential spaces are a premium and therefore tend to be smaller than usual. If I were you, I'll work with a dealer who sells acoustic treatments.. ex. ASC et. al.. and invest in strategically putting diffusers, absorbers and bass traps in key locations in the room.

If you're patient enough, you can even research in the net on practical guides to improving sound using typical furnishings like book cases, etc. If you're a DIY, i have suggestions on what you can do, something I learned 10 years ago when I built a personal home theatre while I was still in the far east.

cheers

As mentioned , my room is already fully treated with lot of foams,fiberglass,rockwool,bass traps and etc..... I have tested by changing foams to diffusors or vice versa but that did not help to tame down .

jasonyeo
11-25-2010, 04:18 AM
I tried both the below solutions to some brightness issues with our floor model JBL Everest DD66000's just over the last two days. Here is what you can expect.

When passively bi amping like you plan, you will need two amplifiers, regardless of whether tube or solid state, that have the same db of gain. Otherwise an amp with higher gain placed on the horn for example, will make it louder than the woofer. The would be the opposite of the effect you want. You may have to call McIntosh for this specification as I would not assume that all MAC amps have the same gain. Input sensitivity, measured in volts, is also a specification that you can rely on. If the numbers are the same for equal power output, the gain will be the same.

The problem with the bi amping approach is that the brightness is almost always a frequency response error with either the recording, room or speaker. With bi amping you would be trying to correct this problem with the more forgiving character of a tube amp, which does not change the frequency response significantly. It likely will soften the leading edges of transients a bit and warm up the sound overall. But unless your existing amp is glassy or sibilant sounding by nature, the bi amping is unlikely to go far enough toward solving your problem.

Have you consider room correction or graphic EQ? If the brightness you complain about is intermittent based on the recordings, you may just want some EQ or even basic tone controls to make these recordings more listenable. However if the problem is caused by frequency response errors generated by the room or the speaker itself, you may want to try the new McIntosh room correction equalizer or something like it. The cost is about the same as buying a MC-275, the $4000 range. Personally I think this much better money spent as you will solve a host of problems at many different frequencies and very likely the brightness problem too. Another consideration is upgrading your preamplifier to the new McIntosh C-50 preamp coming out next month. It has seven bands of graphic EQ built in, perfect for program material correction and also some limited room or speaker correction. Hope this helps. John. www.audiovideologic.com (http://www.audiovideologic.com)

Thanks for the advice but I do not like to engage EQ on speakers except super deep bass from subwoofer which is not practical to tame using comercial bass traps . I still prefer to use foams and diffusors for above 80hz .

Mcintosh 501 state 4.2V input sensitivity and 275 is 2.5V . What does this stand? Can someone help to explain , thanks.

timc
11-25-2010, 04:51 AM
Hi Tim,my room is fully treated . Ceiling, walls , floors has been treated with acoustic foams(ASC panels,Auralex bass traps and foam panels,ecophon panels + DIY diffusors) . It just sounds harsh and bright on certain recordings :o:


Have you verified the results of your room treatment? I have been in numerous rooms that have been treated wrongly. It sounds absolute crap.

Or perheps the harsh sounding recordings, is just plainly bad?

jasonyeo
11-25-2010, 05:01 AM
Have you verified the results of your room treatment? I have been in numerous rooms that have been treated wrongly. It sounds absolute crap.

Or perheps the harsh sounding recordings, is just plainly bad?

Did not verify the results but home theater sounds pretty nice to me :D

Good recordings sounds good but the those sounds I like is those with super highs on female vocals :( .. So need to find ways to tame it :o:

timc
11-25-2010, 05:38 AM
Using the HT sound for reference is a mistake. You should get someone knowledgable to measure your inromme response (impulse response). I will be surprised if you don't see any anomalies, taking into acount your description of the sound.

My guess is that you either have "step" in the respons giving you a peak in the 8-10KHz area, or that you have an uneven reverberation time in your room.

tom1040
11-25-2010, 06:52 AM
Which speaker tap are your using? 8 Ohm's? Have you tried to bi-wire using the different taps from the amps to the HF/LF section of the Arrays?

Mctwins
11-25-2010, 08:02 AM
Hi

You have to use an active crossover for your MC275. The amp will run hotter and more inefficiently. There is no use to run a amp in fullrange when the 1400 array has a crossover freq at 750Hz from bass to M/T.

About the sensitivity on the amp you have to know the accual load impedance on each transducer. As I see it, you have 6ohm on bass and 4ohm on the high and 3ohm on the ultrahigh and you have to know how much power they can handle per transducer. You have allready a passive crossover on M/T what is the nominal impedance load on the high and ultrahigh??? Then the calculation can begin. You have to know this first.

About the harshness in your room you have to take some reverberation measurements to be able too see what is wrong here. Timc... has a point here. I don't think the harshness will go away if you put a tube amp.

I woulden't bi-amp these speakers, but that's me.

MC501 is enough for those speakers because the max recommended amp power is 300W at 8ohm.

Thanks

4313B
11-25-2010, 08:26 AM
I woulden't bi-amp these speakers, but that's me.It's arguably easier to just buy SAM1HF's and SAM2LF's instead if bi-amping is desired.

jasonyeo
11-25-2010, 08:31 AM
Using the HT sound for reference is a mistake. You should get someone knowledgable to measure your inromme response (impulse response). I will be surprised if you don't see any anomalies, taking into acount your description of the sound.

My guess is that you either have "step" in the respons giving you a peak in the 8-10KHz area, or that you have an uneven reverberation time in your room.

Thanks , I will measure myself and check the 8-10khz area :)

jasonyeo
11-25-2010, 08:36 AM
Which speaker tap are your using? 8 Ohm's? Have you tried to bi-wire using the different taps from the amps to the HF/LF section of the Arrays?

Tried different taps , 8ohms , 4ohms , 8 for horn and 4 for bass , 4 for horn and 8 for bass.
Both 8 ohms have bigger soundstage and more dynamics . Both 4ohms narrow the soundstage but more warm and airy . 8 for horn and 4 for for bass sounds funny . 4 for horn and 8 for bass sounds better , airy vocals with wider soundstage .

However , all the combinations still cannot get what I want :p

jasonyeo
11-25-2010, 08:42 AM
Hi

You have to use an active crossover for your MC275. The amp will run hotter and more inefficiently. There is no use to run a amp in fullrange when the 1400 array has a crossover freq at 750Hz from bass to M/T.

About the sensitivity on the amp you have to know the accual load impedance on each transducer. As I see it, you have 6ohm on bass and 4ohm on the high and 3ohm on the ultrahigh and you have to know how much power they can handle per transducer. You have allready a passive crossover on M/T what is the nominal impedance load on the high and ultrahigh??? Then the calculation can begin. You have to know this first.

About the harshness in your room you have to take some reverberation measurements to be able too see what is wrong here. Timc... has a point here. I don't think the harshness will go away if you put a tube amp.

I woulden't bi-amp these speakers, but that's me.

MC501 is enough for those speakers because the max recommended amp power is 300W at 8ohm.

Thanks

Think I will have to buy a more powerful tube amp to control both horn and bass if want to try a tube amp. Is the Mcintosh MC2102(100W/channel) enough for the Array 1400?

timc
11-25-2010, 12:02 PM
I would wote: no.

jasonyeo
11-25-2010, 08:44 PM
I would wote: no.

Thanks Tim . Seems like I need to save more for dual MC2102 or MC2301 monoblocks :(

Not sure if the Rogue Audio zeus tube amp is a good match to my Mc C220 pre and my CD player .... :o:

Audionutz
11-30-2010, 07:28 PM
Some suggestions based on my experience and initial frustration with the 1400 Array;

1. They need to be raised by about 5 inches off the floor.

2. Get rid of the standard spikes (if you're using them) and make some longer ones, or place blocks of dense timber under the standard spikes to get the speakers up to 5 inches.

3. Tilt the speakers back about 5deg from the horizontal

4. The LE14 needs at least 150 watts of good quality amp, my Krell KSA 150 seems to work well.

5. Horn/Tweeter needs at least 130 watts SS power.

6. Allow at least 300 hours break in - thats what mine have taken anyway. They now sound considerable different than they did at first !


Just my 2 cents worth, but may be helpful to you.

Cheers

'Nutz

Robh3606
11-30-2010, 08:22 PM
6. Allow at least 300 hours break in - thats what mine have taken anyway. They now sound considerable different than they did at first !

No kidding?? What kind of changes are you hearing?? Are they better now, well did the issue you had with them improve??

Rob:)

martin_wu99
11-30-2010, 11:39 PM
No pics,no truth!:D

Audionutz
12-01-2010, 12:05 AM
No kidding?? What kind of changes are you hearing?? Are they better now, well did the issue you had with them improve??

Rob:)

For the first couple of months, I began to wonder what all the fuss was about with these. In fact, I'd almost given up on them and even had them listed on eBay. Luckily, they didn't sell.

At first they were very strident and harsh in the highs with a pronounced peak, exp on high freq female vocals. Also, the bass was dull and ill defined - no snap or musicality to it at all.

I thought it was my room - then I thought it was my amps - eventually I decided it was either my ears or the speakers themselves.

However, with the assistance of a couple of friends (thanks Woofer !) I persevered. Tried a multitude of amps, cables, speaker positions, preamps, etc etc until I really thought I'd go crazy ....:banghead:

Other associates pointed out the high crossover point of the LE14 - an obvious flaw they stated. Yet others pointed to poor cabinet construction and the bass port etc etc

Knowing that JBL has more experience in speakers than almost anybody I could talk to, but also being aware that everything is built to a price and commercial reality is just that - reality, I still decided to keep going with them.

Boy, am I glad I did. At about the 300 hour mark, they finally started to come to life and now sound amazing. Its been nice to shove them in the faces of all the doubters, I must admit ... :applaud:

I don't know if this is just my pair, or is symptomatic of the model, as I have not heard another pair.

However, I suspect that these may be one of those speakers that reward effort in all areas of setup.

I'll post some pics when I get the time

Cheers

'Nutz

Woofer
12-01-2010, 01:26 AM
Yep! Everything 'nutz said.
Especially the bit about tilting them about 5 degrees. It works for most speaks.
You really don't want the throat of the horn hitting you fair square smack between the eyes.
Just that couple of degrees off axis, and preferably in the vertical axis makes all the difference.
Everything blends then....
Try it when all else fails. :bouncy:

timc
12-01-2010, 01:37 AM
Yep! Everything 'nutz said.
Especially the bit about tilting them about 5 degrees. It works for most speaks.
You really don't want the throat of the horn hitting you fair square smack between the eyes.
Just that couple of degrees off axis, and preferably in the vertical axis makes all the difference.
Everything blends then....
Try it when all else fails. :bouncy:


You are forgetting that tilting the Array in the vertical direction, is the same as tilting most horn speakers in the horisontal direction. Dispersion wise that is. Anyway, i will try this with the K2 clones i have made.

Woofer
12-01-2010, 01:55 AM
No, not forgetting. :o:
What you're trying to avoid is line of site straight down the throat.
That's where female vocals are the most active.

Mctwins
12-01-2010, 02:57 AM
Hi
It is the room, or bad room acoustics.

timc
12-01-2010, 03:33 AM
No, not forgetting. :o:
What you're trying to avoid is line of site straight down the throat.
That's where female vocals are the most active.

In that case, horizontal and vertical tilt would do exactly the same (given same dispersion pattern within the 5 degrees)

Personally i prefer to listen sligthly off-axis. However that is not limited to horn loaded loudspeakers.

I think you are barking up the wrong tree to be honest. I don't believe it is the tilt in itself that makes the sound better in you situation, but rather the sligth change in room interaction.

Woofer
12-01-2010, 03:49 AM
No trees here......
Of course it's room interaction, but it just doesn't stop there.
OK, imagine this. You're sitting in front of a hard blowing trumpet player.
If it's on axis, your eardrums should start bleeding shortly.
.... but if you move a couple of inches to the side, you'll hear the full tone, including the sound of the resonating brass. Don't argue, I know what I'm talking about.
The tone will be more balanced and pleasing.
(It's a shame that the trumpet player never hears it as it really is, as he's always behind the thing.)

Anyway, get the barking out of your ear, and you end up enjoying the instrument a lot more.
The same with females and horns. Sit in front of one, and it's just like a trumpet when she hits the highs and as horns are very efficient at that very frequency range, 1K to 3K or 4 K, AND all the harmonics in between, and before you know it....., well I don't need to repeat myself.
Re: room interaction, yeh there's that too, didn't say it wasn't, and that's also why you tilt the boxes up to stop and coupling or reflections or whatever, coming right back at you.

jasonyeo
12-01-2010, 04:06 AM
Some suggestions based on my experience and initial frustration with the 1400 Array;

1. They need to be raised by about 5 inches off the floor.

2. Get rid of the standard spikes (if you're using them) and make some longer ones, or place blocks of dense timber under the standard spikes to get the speakers up to 5 inches.

3. Tilt the speakers back about 5deg from the horizontal

4. The LE14 needs at least 150 watts of good quality amp, my Krell KSA 150 seems to work well.

5. Horn/Tweeter needs at least 130 watts SS power.

6. Allow at least 300 hours break in - thats what mine have taken anyway. They now sound considerable different than they did at first !


Just my 2 cents worth, but may be helpful to you.

Cheers

'Nutz

I am still using the original spikes . I bought a marble and below the marble with auralex high density foams . Around 2.5 inches raised .

What do you mean by 5deg from horizontal? Is it like putting something on the front 2 spikes so that it tilt a angle ?

timc
12-01-2010, 04:10 AM
1: OK, imagine this. You're sitting in front of a hard blowing trumpet player.
If it's on axis, your eardrums should start bleeding shortly.
.... but if you move a couple of inches to the side, you'll hear the full tone, including the sound of the resonating brass. Don't argue, I know what I'm talking about.
The tone will be more balanced and pleasing.
(It's a shame that the trumpet player never hears it as it really is, as he's always behind the thing.)




No argue on this part (have played trumpet for 8 years). But how can you argue wich presentation is correct? It all depends on where the microphone was placed in the recording.

With less sucsessfull horn designs (Klipsch Synergy for example) I agree with you concerning female voices. With the likes of the Array/K2, not at all. I have tried extensively both off-axis and on-axis, and there is no way they sound harsh regardless of tilting. Of course the rooms used for testing did not have any particular problem in the frequency range in question. The horn itself should not really do much different since it is CD, and uses diffraction slot. A trumpet does not have this feature. And in any case there are lots of non-linearities when a trumpet/trombone etc. is played hard, so it not really a valid comparison. You might argue that you have beaming, but that is on higher frequencies.

I maintain my position, that it is a problematic room that causes the problem, and not the speaker itself.

jasonyeo
12-01-2010, 04:21 AM
Thanks all bros on your suggestions . I actually found out the problem lies on the floor treatment .

I always use a thick carpet and just concentrating on the walls and ceilings treatment. Tried all possible ways (raised the height of speakers, tilt in more angle) but still cannot help much .

Out of sudden thought why not using diffusor instead of thick carpet on floor . Now by placing 2 diffusors on the floor , in front of the speakers each improve a lot .

Will try to tilt a angle upward to see if can improve further .:p

But still like to try out tube amps in future if budget permits :D

Mctwins
12-01-2010, 04:26 AM
Jasonyeo......

Put the diffusor on the ceiling.

Don't forgett to use a active crossover.:)

Woofer
12-01-2010, 04:29 AM
@ timc

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I've worked with and recorded live bands with huge horn loaded PA's all my life, and always used a clamped (to the bell) mic on any brass instrument, and there's no way to escape it, the brass can sound 'peaky', and it's all coming from the horns, no matter what room you're in.
It's exactly the same with females, except you can't clamp their mic's to their mouths, well you couldn't before, but you almost can now, but they still rattle the diaphragms both in the mic, AND in the horns.
Along comes a 1400 with THAT horn, and you can expect to have problems. You can see it just by looking at it.
eg, you got two hoses, both streaming water. What happens when you cross the streams?
Well it's exactly the same thing, and 'some' (only some mind you) have complained about this very area that the two sound streams are physically meeting. There just has to be an effect.
Some will use a slide rule to work this one out, but it's literally staring you in the face.
Anyway, that's the sort of problem 'nutz was having initially I think, although he couldn't quite put his finger on it, but now after 300 hours or so, things seem to be sorting themselves out.
I think he calls it "burning in", but knowing 'nutz, I think it's more like "burning out".
Heh heh heh, just kiding 'nutz...... :p
Put it down to the suspensions softening up, and filling out the frequencies a bit more without sounding so new!
.... somethin' like that. Anyway, it's late, and I've taken my pills. ;)

jasonyeo
12-01-2010, 04:33 AM
Jasonyeo......

Put the diffusor on the ceiling.

Don't forgett to use a active crossover.:)

Am using diffusors and foams on ceiling now . Diffusors covered 3/4 area and foams is 1/4 on the front ceiling.

Still not sure if I want to go for active crossover :confused:

jasonyeo
12-01-2010, 04:53 AM
I also have a Denon AVP A1UD pre/pro . Think can use this as external crossover , right :confused:
But still dislike the idea of having 2 volumn controls , 1 on Mcintosh c220 pre and 1 on Denon .

Moreover , need to bypass the speaker crossover and connect directly to the woofer and horn :confused:

timc
12-01-2010, 05:21 AM
@ timc

1: the brass can sound 'peaky', and it's all coming from the horns, no matter what room you're in.


2: It's exactly the same with females, except you can't clamp their mic's to their mouths, well you couldn't before, but you almost can now, but they still rattle the diaphragms both in the mic, AND in the horns.

3: eg, you got two hoses, both streaming water. What happens when you cross the streams?
Well it's exactly the same thing

1: On this we quite agree. But it is the instrument that does it. The sound you are hearing is a combination of the acoustic wave comming out of the hornt, AND the waves generated by the vibration in the instrument mouth. The last part is not present in a loudspeaker (unless it is very poorly designed)

3: This part i just don't get. Why should a female voice "push" the diaphragm any harder than a random source of equal magnitude and frequency?

3: It is not the same. What happens in the CD diffraction slot is edge diffraction. You don't have this when the stream from two hoses "crash". A better analogy when it comes to water hoses, would be that tiny amount of water that is reversed and goes back at you at the end of the hose. Giving a gentle spray on your hand.

You are mixing two part of physics here. Having water molecules crashing into eachother in a steady stream, and then bouncing off one another is not the same as when you have acoustic wave interference. The acoustic wave is not a stream of molecules comming towards you. They are vibrating back and fort, hovering around a zero-point. This is not 100% true, but very close. This is the reason you have a clear distinction beetween fluid mechanics and underwater acoustics.

timc
12-01-2010, 05:22 AM
Moreover , need to bypass the speaker crossover and connect directly to the woofer and horn :confused:


No!

There is a guide on active use of the 1400 in the tech library. Look a it.

Mctwins
12-01-2010, 05:25 AM
Jasonyeo.....

Now I don't understand what you are trying to do here. Don't mess up the speakers by bypassing the passive crossover. Just take it easy here.

I had JBL SVA1800 one time ago and when I tried to bi-amping these speakers it didn't sounded good without any active crossover, it sounded better when I was running them in fullrange or in this case, bi-wire, (one amplifier).

You have to use a real active crossover like DBX PA+ or the like. Forgett about the rest.

If you want to bi-amp and not using any active x-over then you have the wrong speakers.

When it comes to bi-amp, wheather you have passive or not in the speakers or running SS low and high or tube on High and SS on low, allways use active x-over. It is better for the amps and the speakers.
Thanks

jasonyeo
12-01-2010, 06:03 AM
No!

There is a guide on active use of the 1400 in the tech library. Look a it.

Is this the link http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?23763-Bi-amping-the-JBL-Model-1400-Array

jasonyeo
12-01-2010, 06:06 AM
Jasonyeo.....

Now I don't understand what you are trying to do here. Don't mess up the speakers by bypassing the passive crossover. Just take it easy here.

I had JBL SVA1800 one time ago and when I tried to bi-amping these speakers it didn't sounded good without any active crossover, it sounded better when I was running them in fullrange or in this case, bi-wire, (one amplifier).

You have to use a real active crossover like DBX PA+ or the like. Forgett about the rest.

If you want to bi-amp and not using any active x-over then you have the wrong speakers.

When it comes to bi-amp, wheather you have passive or not in the speakers or running SS low and high or tube on High and SS on low, allways use active x-over. It is better for the amps and the speakers.
Thanks

Thanks . Need to study the Array 1400 bi amp tech library. Hope I can understand :o:

timc
12-01-2010, 06:17 AM
Is this the link http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?23763-Bi-amping-the-JBL-Model-1400-Array


Thats the one. This is submittet by the master himself, so read it carefully, and do just as described. Your sound should be great :)

jasonyeo
12-01-2010, 06:27 AM
Thats the one. This is submittet by the master himself, so read it carefully, and do just as described. Your sound should be great :)

Thanks. Not quite comfortable on shorting the input capacitor as I still need the speakers on HT duty using just the MC501s. Think I better save more money to get two MC275 and mono it instead :o:

timc
12-01-2010, 06:44 AM
Thanks. Not quite comfortable on shorting the input capacitor as I still need the speakers on HT duty using just the MC501s. Think I better save more money to get two MC275 and mono it instead :o:


I think you are missing the point. This description is for use with an electronic active crossover. The power rating is unaffected. (more or less)

jasonyeo
12-01-2010, 08:26 AM
I think you are missing the point. This description is for use with an electronic active crossover. The power rating is unaffected. (more or less)

I get what you mean but for HT , I need timbre matching espcially on the L,C,R speakers . If I change the tone on fronts only leaving center as usual , the timbre will not match unless I bi-amp the center as well :(

timc
12-01-2010, 08:47 AM
I get what you mean but for HT , I need timbre matching espcially on the L,C,R speakers . If I change the tone on fronts only leaving center as usual , the timbre will not match unless I bi-amp the center as well :(

To be honest i don't think the difference will be so large that you would really care about it. Unless you go for an amplifier with way different sound.

On the other hand. What's stopping you from biamping the center as well?

jasonyeo
12-01-2010, 09:34 AM
To be honest i don't think the difference will be so large that you would really care about it. Unless you go for an amplifier with way different sound.

On the other hand. What's stopping you from biamping the center as well?

I am already satisfied with the HT sound so do not want to mess with it anymore :p

Now just want to concentrate on the stereo part . At the same time , learning from you guys . :)

I understand the life span on tubes for tube amp is short so may need to change the tubes every 1.5 years if doing double duty . I am more on a HT guys so most of the times I am watching movies rather than listening to music :D

Love the rich mid and smooth highs from a tube amp so want to try it out on my system.

Mr. Widget
12-01-2010, 09:46 AM
Think I better save more money to get two MC275 and mono it instead :o:Borrow them before you buy... I can't imagine this is a logical or well advised solution. You may find audio nirvana by buying some expensive amps. but simply throwing money at the problem rarely solves it... that said, if you go this route you'd hardly be the first person to initially believe you've solved your "problem" only to eventually change your mind as the "new" wears off.

Mac gear is pretty and some of it is sonically quite good. That said, if you really want to explore amps try a real variety from numerous brands. You might find an amp from someone else that costs far less and satisfies you more... or better yet, make sure your electronics front end is good, focus on the room acoustics and enjoy the music.


Widget

jasonyeo
12-01-2010, 09:59 AM
Borrow them before you buy... I can't imagine this is a logical or well advised solution. You may find audio nirvana by buying some expensive amps. but simply throwing money at the problem rarely solves it... that said, if you go this route you'd hardly be the first person to initially believe you've solved your "problem" only to eventually change your mind as the "new" wears off.

Mac gear is pretty and some of it is sonically quite good. That said, if you really want to explore amps try a real variety from numerous brands. You might find an amp from someone else that costs far less and satisfies you more... or better yet, make sure your electronics front end is good, focus on the room acoustics and enjoy the music.


Widget

Understand . But the dealer here does not loan the amp .:(

Can you recommend some nice tube amps other than mcintosh to match with the mac tube pre?

Mr. Widget
12-01-2010, 10:20 AM
Understand . But the dealer here does not loan the amp .:(

Can you recommend some nice tube amps other than mcintosh to match with the mac tube pre?Is there a local audio club? You need to experiment... buying gear that is highly recommended will guaranty one thing... draining your bank account.

I like Pass Labs which are solid state, I like Audio Research tube amps, some Cary amps, BAT amps... I have recently used a pair of Atmosphere OTL amps... they really heat up the room, but sound very nice. There are numerous tube amps from your corner of the world... try some of those too.


Widget

jasonyeo
12-02-2010, 04:45 AM
Is there a local audio club? You need to experiment... buying gear that is highly recommended will guaranty one thing... draining your bank account.

I like Pass Labs which are solid state, I like Audio Research tube amps, some Cary amps, BAT amps... I have recently used a pair of Atmosphere OTL amps... they really heat up the room, but sound very nice. There are numerous tube amps from your corner of the world... try some of those too.


Widget

Thanks for the advice . Unfortunately it is very hard to loan a tube amp here from a dealer...

Mr. Widget
12-02-2010, 10:19 AM
Thanks for the advice . Unfortunately it is very hard to loan a tube amp here from a dealer...That's why I asked about a Hi-Fi club... you should try to borrow some equipment from like minded people in your area. There is simply nothing like comparing several pieces of gear in your own system to show you what is important to you and what is not.

It is quite easy to spend tens of thousands of dollars on highly rated gear and make your system sound no better or even worse. So much of this hobby is purely subjective, but even objectively the way different pieces of gear perform together can often be surprising... here in the States any decent dealer will let you borrow or at least give you exchange privileges. If that simply is impossible where you are you should try to find a compromise... perhaps carting your speakers and electronics down to the shop and comparing the whole setup with other amps and perhaps preamps as well... sure, a ton of work, but if you are serious about this and don't want to throw away good money after bad...


Widget

timc
12-02-2010, 12:31 PM
If a shop denies you the possibility of trying out stuff at home, you should find another shop. There are dealers that even offer to send product to you. You buy the product with maybe a 10day return policy. If you don't wish to buy, you only cover the shipping cost. If you buy, you might get the shipping for free.

Audionutz
12-02-2010, 06:54 PM
My path to Nirvana on the mid/highs for the 1400's ended with an Odyssey Khartago. Funnily enough, it was the least expensive (by far) amp I tried, but ended up better than any of the 5 vlave amps I tried - go figure ?

Just a nice, synergistic match, for me at least.

Cheers

'Nutz

Mr. Widget
12-02-2010, 10:58 PM
My path to Nirvana on the mid/highs for the 1400's ended with an Odyssey Khartago. Funnily enough, it was the least expensive (by far) amp I tried, but ended up better than any of the 5 vlave amps I tried - go figure ?That is exactly the point I was trying to make. In addition I think it is likely that you will find amp A to be the "best" and someone else may prefer amp C or D though we all agree that amp B is not right.


Widget

timc
12-03-2010, 03:53 AM
Just a nice, synergistic match, for me at least.

Cheers

'Nutz


On a personal level, that is really all that matters. :)