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View Full Version : Beryllium diaphragms ??



mikeharris
11-22-2010, 07:17 AM
I saw these folks at the AES show in SF recently...and was wondering if anyone has tried...heard...or measured these.
They fit the 375/2440 family of drivers

http://www.electrofusionproducts.com/display_page.asp?page_id=77

ratitifb
11-22-2010, 07:42 AM
I saw these folks at the AES show in SF recently...and was wondering if anyone has tried...heard...or measured these.
They fit the 375/2440 family of drivers

http://www.electrofusionproducts.com/display_page.asp?page_id=77



http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?29421-2440-diaphragm-options


make a search with "Truextent" ;)

lgvenable
11-22-2010, 02:31 PM
these have been reviewed and discussed, just use "search"

4313B
11-22-2010, 02:53 PM
I saw these folks at the AES show in SF recently...and was wondering if anyone has tried...heard...or measured these.
They fit the 375/2440 family of drivers

http://www.electrofusionproducts.com/display_page.asp?page_id=77


JBL did. The diaphragms are outstanding.

spkrman57
11-23-2010, 09:12 AM
I've had them for almost a year in 2446 drivers and they have spoiled me big time!

See my avatar.

Ron




I saw these folks at the AES show in SF recently...and was wondering if anyone has tried...heard...or measured these.
They fit the 375/2440 family of drivers

http://www.electrofusionproducts.com/display_page.asp?page_id=77

jw5115
12-02-2010, 07:58 PM
I was the first to use these, and had use of one pr of the prototypes prior to them being released for sale. while my first use of these was in my new line of field coil drivers. It was almost a year before I got around to refitting a stock JBL 2" format driver with these.While the performance in a field coil was to be expected to be outstanding , I had already been using JBL's GOTTO built berylium diaphrams. I was truly impressed with the improvement these made to the standard JBL line. If refitting an alnico driver I recommend recharging as well, since these are at least 30 yrs old.
when refitting these carefull attention must be made in also getting the correct height and this is usually 5-10/1000 above the top plate.
THERE IS NO LONGER ANY NEED FOR THE TAD 4001 &4002 DRIVERS WITH THERE STIFF SURROUNDS AND INABILITY TO GO DOWN LOW.
TRULY AN AMAZING SUCCESS FOR BRUSH-WELLMAN.
GOOD LUCK
JOHN WOLFF
CLASSIC AUDIO LOUDSPEAKERS

4313B
12-03-2010, 07:36 AM
TRULY AN AMAZING SUCCESS FOR BRUSH-WELLMAN.Yeah, JBL seems kind of miffed but they probably should have taken Brush-Wellman up on the offer to distribute them... Something tells me though that the price would have ended up being higher.

cosmos
12-03-2010, 08:04 PM
THERE IS NO LONGER ANY NEED FOR THE TAD 4001 &4002 DRIVERS WITH THERE STIFF SURROUNDS AND INABILITY TO GO DOWN LOW.

Hi John. How low have you taken them? I've had them down to 410 Hz. with a 24db L-R slope, about as low as I'd want to take my horns, and to me they still sounded great without issues.

In answer to the OP, they are worth every penny, in my opinion. I know people who have spent much more on cables and gotten magnitudes less (if any) improvement. They are smooth and natural sounding.

martin_wu99
04-12-2011, 02:51 AM
I've had them for almost a year in 2446 drivers and they have spoiled me big time!

See my avatar.

Ron
Pro sound at home!I like it,i like your signature:applaud:

kartsmart
04-12-2011, 05:25 AM
Has anyone tried these to replace the 2441 diaphragms for the 2397 horns with slots one the top endand how did they sound differently ?

richluvsound
04-12-2011, 06:37 AM
its like taking the cotton wool out of your ears ! I believe others will agree me - you find the missing 15% of music you paid for :D

Rich

1audiohack
04-12-2011, 08:53 AM
Has anyone tried these to replace the 2441 diaphragms for the 2397 horns with slots one the top endand how did they sound differently ?

Funny you should ask! This exact task is on my this week to do list.

kartsmart
04-12-2011, 09:02 AM
Funny you should ask! This exact task is on my this week to do list.
Keep us posted on the 2397s and how they sound with the slots , also what are you using below the horns ? crossovers ? :applaud:

richluvsound
04-12-2011, 09:40 AM
Hey Hack ,


exciting stuff dude . I look forward to your impressions ...... Not wishing to piss on your fire ,but you may find the horn holds you back a bit . You may find you need a horn with more loading to make the most of the extension you will get below 900 hrtz ... Just my opinion .

The slots may be redundant too. You should be able to get the 2441 flat past you hearing . Maybe a Ribbon or the TD 703 ?


Rich

1audiohack
04-12-2011, 10:33 AM
I have never myself used the 2397 although I have heard them alot. The pair I have were recently aquired for measurement purposes mostly and one more reference.

Since there is much published data for the 2441/2311 and 2441/2397 combinations and these were designed to work together I want to get familiar with them. I have not heard a 2" throat horn yet that I didn't think would benefit from a real tweeter (but I haven't heard them all) and I don't expect these to be any different. I am just trying to make my measurement and mental references more complete. What I am really interested in is what makes good workable combinations with the least amount of required EQ, one of the worst so far with the parts I have is a 2441Al on a 2365, yuck.

I plan on running them with AL,Ti, and Be. To listen to these I will probably set them on top of my office system so the stack would be Sub1500's, 2020's, 2397's, with 077's in and out optional. A DBX260 does the dividing, fun!

kartsmart
04-12-2011, 05:41 PM
Hey Hack ,


exciting stuff dude . I look forward to your impressions ...... Not wishing to piss on your fire ,but you may find the horn holds you back a bit . You may find you need a horn with more loading to make the most of the extension you will get below 900 hrtz ... Just my opinion .

The slots may be redundant too. You should be able to get the 2441 flat past you hearing . Maybe a Ribbon or the TD 703 ?


Rich

So Rich what would be your choose for a horn , and drivers ?

maxwedge
04-12-2011, 07:01 PM
They sound really nice is about the best I can put it!:)
I have mine in 2245's w/2385 horns and a 630hz x-over. I like the lower crossover much better than 800 with my system. The mids are 2206 with 2404 on top at 8k. I tried 3way but they dropped off fast ~10k, but then I wasn't using any compensation for my CD horns when I measured them, so I think I'll try 3way again!;)
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j7/maxwedge572/Audio/DSC09388.jpg
Close up:D
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j7/maxwedge572/Audio/DSC09407.jpg

Eaulive
04-12-2011, 07:15 PM
Cool! :cool:

richluvsound
04-13-2011, 02:13 AM
So Rich what would be your choose for a horn , and drivers ?



Hi Ksmart ,

the smith horn, H9800, H4338, TDH 4001, would be my choices .... I fought against a 2-way for along time ,but hearing is believing .

I have found that since I built a Class A amp , used a quality DAC , a solid no whistles Pre-amp . I don't miss a tweeter .I just present the best possible bandwidth to the speaker and let it do its job,not feed crap and expect the speaker to resolve the sign al for me . Perhaps its subjective . There are people hear ,that I respect greatly, that prefer a tweeter.
Beryllium is not a new thing ,TAD has been using it for years.

Rich


BTW , I can still hear at 17 khtz .

pos
04-13-2011, 03:26 AM
A Smith horn would not be the best choice for a two way, as it has serious directivity issues (and lobes) above 7 or 8khz. It also does not load the driver very low compared to the smaller H9800.

richluvsound
04-13-2011, 04:43 AM
A Smith horn would not be the best choice for a two way, as it has serious directivity issues (and lobes) above 7 or 8khz. It also does not load the driver very low compared to the smaller H9800.

Pos,

Am I getting them mixed up ?.... I mean the one that Woody made ?

Rich

kartsmart
04-13-2011, 05:04 AM
A Smith horn would not be the best choice for a two way, as it has serious directivity issues (and lobes) above 7 or 8khz. It also does not load the driver very low compared to the smaller H9800.
My original plan was to use
E-145 2397 2405 2245 subs
or 2245 2123 2307 2405
or E-145 2123 2397 2505
I can see with the 2397s it would have to be a 3way being a tweeter is needed, but aways liked the bash the top end was good for and the bottom that the 2245 and E-145 brings is there better ? .Getting newer horns seems hard to get and need a boat load of money to. I have everything but the horns , I tried to cast the TH4000 horns out of cement but did not work out as well as planed just didn't sound right. need some horns.

JeffW
04-13-2011, 05:33 AM
Pos,

Am I getting them mixed up ?.... I mean the one that Woody made ?

Rich

Woody's were sort of based on the Yuichi's that were sort of based on the TAD.

richluvsound
04-13-2011, 05:47 AM
Woody's were sort of based on the Yuichi's that were sort of based on the TAD.

Thanks Jeff ....

macaroonie
04-13-2011, 07:04 AM
I like your horn Rich :p Hows the hips ?

A previous poster referred to a 630 Hz crossover bass to mid , I concur , I have gradually crept down there and all is good. B&C DE85Ti with magic dust on 2380

richluvsound
04-13-2011, 07:16 AM
I like your horn Rich :p Hows the hips ?

A previous poster referred to a 630 Hz crossover bass to mid , I concur , I have gradually crept down there and all is good. B&C DE85Ti with magic dust on 2380
Hi Mac,
Hips are doin ok .... just gotta be patient . BTW, do you still want that mould ? it needs a bit of work , but your welcome to it . Its an out door project and now is the time !

630 Hz does work nice here :D

Rich

pos
04-13-2011, 09:18 AM
630 Hz does work nice here :D
You are using your H9800+2435SL that low without issue?
What crossover slope are you using? At that low a frequency on the H9800 you need to seriously take the horn rolloff into account when calculating the final acoustical slope (even at 800Hz in fact, as in the S9800).
Good to hear your hips are ok!

pos
04-13-2011, 09:23 AM
My original plan was to use
E-145 2397 2405 2245 subs
or 2245 2123 2307 2405
or E-145 2123 2397 2505
I can see with the 2397s it would have to be a 3way being a tweeter is needed, but aways liked the bash the top end was good for and the bottom that the 2245 and E-145 brings is there better ? .Getting newer horns seems hard to get and need a boat load of money to. I have everything but the horns , I tried to cast the TH4000 horns out of cement but did not work out as well as planed just didn't sound right. need some horns.
2245+2123+2397+2405 would have my vote.
To sound good the 2379 needs to be crossed at 1khz or higher, and at this frequency the E145 would not have a wide enough directivity to match the 140į of the 2397.

richluvsound
04-13-2011, 09:29 AM
You are using your H9800+2435SL that low without issue?
What crossover slope are you using? At that low a frequency on the H9800 you need to seriously take the horn rolloff into account when calculating the final acoustical slope (even at 800Hz in fact, as in the S9800).
Good to hear your hips are ok!

Heir Flux may want to confirm that FQ :D

Guido
04-15-2011, 08:40 AM
Heir Flux may want to confirm that FQ :D

It's more like 750 - 800 Hz.

richluvsound
04-15-2011, 11:16 AM
I'll just go back to my saw dust :o:

Thanks for popping in to clear that up . !

Rich

maxwedge
04-15-2011, 01:23 PM
They sound really nice is about the best I can put it!:)
I have mine in 2445's w/2385 horns and a 630hz x-over. I like the lower crossover much better than 800 with my system. The mids are 2206 with 2404 on top at 8k. I tried 3way but they dropped off fast ~10k, but then I wasn't using any compensation for my CD horns when I measured them, so I think I'll try 3way again!;)

Re-configured for 3 way with some HF compensation on my 2385 horns and finding it very enjoyable.:bouncy:
X-over's @200 and 630 w/2245, 2206 and 2445:)

pos
04-19-2011, 02:24 PM
Still running without tweeter?
What crossover machine are you using?

Oldmics
04-19-2011, 03:04 PM
Inquiring minds want to know.

Any documentation if so?

Thanks,Oldmics

richluvsound
04-19-2011, 03:17 PM
Guido posted graphs somewhere on here !

maxwedge
04-19-2011, 05:02 PM
Still running without tweeter?
What crossover machine are you using?
Yep, 2404's in the closet for now.:blink: I doubt I can hear over 16k anyway...53 here!:(
It's a Rane AC-24 digital unit. Basically it's a stereo 4way dsp that uses knobs. No pc interface.
http://www.rane.com/pdf/old/ac24dat.pdf

1audiohack
04-19-2011, 08:08 PM
OK I finally got around to it, I loaded three 2441's with new diapragms, one Al, one Ti and one Be. All have new JBL foam in the back caps. The Ti and Be are 8Ω, the Al is 16Ω. I ran them all at 300 Hz and got them all centered, the Be was a real fight to get centered.

I wanted to try to isolate some wiggles and ripples so I impedance and SPL swept them all open back, then with the back covers on, on the bench pointed up, with a metal cap over the mouth, with a rag stuffed in the throat, open throat no horn, with a 2311, and with a 2397.

I don't want to wash this post with measurements no one is interested in, in short, the 2397 is done at 11.5 kHz no matter what's driving it and the 2311 measures flattest with an Al phragm going decently to 16 kHz. The Be is the best behaved of them all with the smoothest SPL response curves, the HF SPL extension is not substantially enhanced, it is smoother though.

I am not going to tear down this test setup yet because JeffW is sending a pair of D?R2450SL's to measure, I will load them into other 2441's so they will all be available if we want to check anything else out.

I really don't think I will put the 2397's in a system as I have better horns, and pretty much everyone that has compared the Be's to the rest already knows, it's old new.

I will post anything anyone is interested in seeing, just shout out.

All the best,
Barry.

JeffW
04-19-2011, 08:58 PM
?=8

JeffW
04-19-2011, 09:19 PM
I don't want to wash this post with measurements no one is interested in, in short, the 2397 is done at 11.5 kHz no matter what's driving it

While I'm crossing mine out at 8KHz, I'm still interested in what the throatless 435AL and fabulous plywood adapter will do. So keep that rig handy until I get some more of those flanged up. I've read several posts saying ~12K is as good as it gets, but AFAIK nobody has mounted a throatless driver yet.

Mr. Widget
04-19-2011, 09:32 PM
While I'm crossing mine out at 8KHz, I'm still interested in what the throatless 435AL and fabulous plywood adapter will do. So keep that rig handy until I get some more of those flanged up. I've read several posts saying ~12K is as good as it gets, but AFAIK nobody has mounted a throatless driver yet.I made an adapter and tried a TAD TD-4003... not throatless, but much closer geometry to the small format JBLs than the old WE based 2441 geometry... the results were not at all good. There was a real mismatch at the lower end of the spectrum.

Thanks for the commentary and sharing your findings Barry.


Widget

jerv
04-20-2011, 01:32 AM
OK I finally got around to it, I loaded three 2441's with new diapragms, one Al, one Ti and one Be.....
.....I am not going to tear down this test setup yet because JeffW is sending a pair of D?R2450SL's to measure, I will load them into other 2441's so they will all be available if we want to check anything else out......

I will post anything anyone is interested in seeing, just shout out.

All the best,
Barry.

I'll shout!
This is very interesting, Barry. I use my 2445's with 2450SL's. I am very pleased with them, but wonders if it will be worthwile to change to Be diaphragms.

Please post your findings!

Regards, Espen

1audiohack
04-20-2011, 10:46 PM
As requested, a Woody horn on a 2450 with 8Ω Be's, on axis at 0.6V at 2 meters. These don't come over well as a jpeg, the yellow line is the second harmonic at an average of 41 dB below reference, the blue line is the 3rd harmonic.

pos
04-20-2011, 11:53 PM
Thanks Barry!
Could you please post the same measurement for the two other diaphragms types, for comparison?

herki the cat
04-20-2011, 11:56 PM
As requested, a Woody horn on a 2450 with 8Ω Be's, on axis at 0.6V at 2 meters. These don't come over well as a jpeg, the yellow line is the second harmonic at an average of 41 dB below reference, the blue line is the 3rd harmonic.

Barry, I have some 2440's. If you have 2440, many of us would appreciate Be' curves on your Woody Horns. If not, 2441's with Be' will do. The 2440 has higher flux density of 20,000 compared to 18,000 of the 2441 which provides significant high end improvement in 2440.

BTW,:dont-know: what is the a "Woody Horn" Can you tell me the lowest frequency it provides full acoustic loading.

Regards, Herki

Eaulive
04-21-2011, 05:22 AM
These don't come over well as a jpeg

Try ".gif", you may lose some colour range but you will keep the resolution and detail, the file will be smaller too.

JeffW
04-21-2011, 04:50 PM
BTW,:dont-know: what is the a "Woody Horn"

They are some wood horns made by Woody Banks (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?29396-Wood-Horns), slightly smaller but similar to the Yuichi A-290 (http://www.geocities.jp/arai401204/Horn/A290/A290.html).

1audiohack
04-21-2011, 08:14 PM
Thanks Barry!
Could you please post the same measurement for the two other diaphragms types, for comparison?

Why sure. In order, aluminum, beryllium, and titainium, all in the same motor.

1audiohack
04-21-2011, 08:34 PM
Barry, I have some 2440's. If you have 2440, many of us would appreciate Be' curves on your Woody Horns. If not, 2441's with Be' will do. The 2440 has higher flux density of 20,000 compared to 18,000 of the 2441 which provides significant high end improvement in 2440.

BTW,:dont-know: what is the a "Woody Horn" Can you tell me the lowest frequency it provides full acoustic loading.

Regards, Herki

Hi Herki;

I have no 2440's. I can't keep the buzz out of the one Be diaphragm in the one 2441 I tried it in. I will put it in another 2441 and give it a go Friday night.

The Woody horns we have that Jeff pictured lets go just below 300 Hz.

Cheers,
Barry.

Jan Daugaard
04-22-2011, 02:07 AM
I have tried to invert the colours which makes the graphs more legible. Do let me know if it isn't helpful, and I will delete this post.

It is striking that there is suck-out at 19 kHz, regardless of the diaphragm material.

The graphs are in the same order as above, i.e. aluminum, beryllium, and titanium:

1audiohack
04-22-2011, 06:42 AM
It looks better to me. I thought I should just change them to black on white, they are exported in bitmap originally and have great resolution and far better legibility but the files are huge. I should learn more about that kind of stuff but I don't do this kind of thing at all (post measurements and the like) except once in a while here. My apologies, and thanks.

There are more than a few things that interest and puzzle me. One being the 2nd harmonic of the Ti diaphragm beginning at about 7 kHz, the phase response of it (the 2nd harmonic) at that point takes a big jump out of time from that point on up where the other two metals don't, they just follow a relatively smooth curve on out. I have my suspicions but have drawn no conclusions as yet.

Robh3606
04-22-2011, 07:29 AM
Nice measurements! In case you missed this I posted the Truextent White Paper in the Technical Reference Section. Might help answer some of your questions. The long and short are Be/Al/Ti in that order. The ribbed Ti diaphrams were the "worst" of the bunch. If you look at the wavelet analysis/waterfall the Al is quite good compared to the Be.

Rob:)

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?30412-Truextent-White-paper-for-Large-Format-Diaphragms&p=305351#post305351

1audiohack
04-22-2011, 08:53 AM
Thanks Rob, I did see and read that paper.

Part of what I am doing, besides exploring for fun is to continue to learn to make accurate meaningful measurements, in hopes of improving my own listening pleasures. TEF has many capabilities that I have yet to fully explore. I normally just buzz test, SPL and impedance sweep diaphragm installments and decided to take that a step further and distortion test them to see what you really get should they rub in the gap at all. That kind of led to some of what I posted. I really want to compare the SL's to the standard Ti's. TEF will do all the energy time analysis stuff, display in waterfall as well but if you think the line plots look bad by the time I get them exported, well,,.

srm51555
10-13-2014, 06:54 AM
I had a chance to listen to the Yamaha NS-1000ís this weekend. This was my first chance to audition any beryllium material. The main reason for the listening session was to find out when replacing my old diaphragms in the 2440ís, should I go OEM or Be. $1,200 vs $650 is a lot of coin to spend for me on an experiment, and the Be route meant the Altec 846Bís in storage would need be sold. I also didnít know anyone in the South East Wisconsin area to actually audition a pair of JBL BE drivers, so I figured this would have to do. The Yamahaís did sound great, but Iíve always been a horn fan. My question is this, if I would switch to Be in the 2440ís would they sound as detailed in the mids of the 1000ís and still have the dynamics of the horn? The system is currently a 2235/2440/2397/2405 with Giskards CC L300 Crossover.