PDA

View Full Version : New to this forum (and I bring questions!)



Toka
11-20-2010, 07:28 PM
Hi folks,

I'm new to this forum and relatively new to JBL itself...been into audio for many years but for whatever reason I never heard a set of JBL's that really grabbed me (truth be told many were not in the best state of repair when I heard them).

Anyway I recently heard some that knocked my socks off...don't recall the model # but they were pro monitors with a blue face. Anyway, wow! :eek:

I've since been looking at picking up a pair (or more) of JBL's for myself. Looking at the various models in the library and reading up here it appears that the 'T3' line would be a good fit for me. I say that because I would want to have, at the very least, fronts/rears from the same line, and the fronts would have to have sufficient bass output on their own without a sub. I like a balanced, punchy sound...listen to just about everything but mostly classic/hard rock. Also getting into '78s from the big band era. Oh, and they can't cost an arm and a leg.

I have noticed, though, that while the tweeters are offset in this line, the speakers are not mirror-imaged...anyone know why that is? I see that the 240ti's were (another one on my list), so its a bit confusing. Whether or not it makes an audible difference is one thing, but it would matter in my mind. :blink:

I'm also open to suggestions for other JBL's to keep an eye out for...250ti's seem like a great choice but not sure I'd be able to get them for a reasonable price.

Anyway I'm sure I'll have many more questions...this seems like a great forum from what I've seen thus far and I'm looking forward to learning (and listening) as much as possible!

Titanium Dome
11-20-2010, 09:48 PM
Hope you enjoy our time here.

HCSGuy
11-20-2010, 11:21 PM
Welcome to the forum, hope you have fun!

If you heard and liked blue-face monitors, most likely they were the 43xx series from the late70's/early80's. These were built for recording studios, ranged from 8" 2-ways to 18" 4-ways, and were the first JBL's to use time alignment in the crossover. They are lots of fun to listen to, as you've heard:)

You mention the "T3" series, which was in there consumer line from about '88-'92. It's my favorite series, especially the L100T3, which really rocks. Unfortunately, there are some drawbacks which may make collecting it difficult or require patience. Mainly it was Harman's use of reconstituted wood veneer on this series that seems to keep the series from holding up well over time. The veneer is thin and not very hard, so edges and corners tend to get crushed easily. Also, the reddish ("Walnut") finish fades pretty easy, so most samples have a "Bikini tan", where the section behind the fabric grill looks great, but the exposed section above/below is faded. Because the veneer is not natural, and is not available for purchase (if you find a source, let me know!), you cannot re-veneer the cabinets, and the thinness of the veneer precludes you from sanding and restaining them. So, if you are a meticulous collector, it will be very hard to find pristine examples, especially in the more common, smaller sizes (L20t3, L40t3). However, if you can live with some fading/scratches, their really fun to listen to.

Next, there is no matching center speaker for the series, so you can use a L20t3 if a vertical speaker works in your system. JBL didn't catch on to the surround thing for quite a while, as even the next series (L1, L3, L5, L7) didn't have a matching center.

Regarding mirror-imaging, here's a good link for information on edge diffraction:
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/diffraction.htm

You'll see that you get smoother frequency response by offsetting the drivers, which JBL did, though it doesn't matter to which side you offset them, and mirror imaging is more psychological than measurable. However, as you note, JBL did not usually build speakers in mirror imaged pairs in this era as I think any consumer speaker (except the 250 and its iterations) that was boxed individually was cranked out in mass and mirror imaging would mean they would have to track left and right speakers of each pair. At this time, JBL also didn't sell "Matched" pairs, by the way.

Since you're starting out on your collecting, here's my tips on this vintage:
1. Save up for a pair of 250Ti's. Period. There is nothing else close in this vintage and they're worth every penny. If you buy every other speaker and don't get a pair of these, you'll still wish you had a pair. If you buy a pair of these, you can skip everything else in the consumer line and not really miss much.
2. L100T3's are the best of the t3 series, though you can get L100T's and upgrade the crossover for the same sound. The earlier T series used a different veneer that while thin, was harder and resisted fade better, so you will find more clean examples of this series.
3. Avoid most of the Ti series. The 250Ti is of course excepted. The 18ti is a great sounding bookshelf, but is now sold at a premium for its tweeter, which is used to upgrade L-250's to 250ti's. The 120Ti and 240Ti are mediocre sounding speakers that are little more than boxes to hold valuable drivers (especially the 240Ti, which has LE14-1 woofers in it).

Good luck, and let us know what you hear that you really like!

Robh3606
11-21-2010, 06:56 AM
Hello Toka

Welcome to the Forum. Start small with a pair of L20t3 and run them with a sub. They will surprise you.

Hello HCSguy


and were the first JBL's to use time alignment in the crossover.

The Big Blues?? Which ones?? The Urei's for sure and possibly the 4430.

Rob:)

BMWCCA
11-21-2010, 07:59 AM
You'll see that you get smoother frequency response by offsetting the drivers, which JBL did, though it doesn't matter to which side you offset them, and mirror imaging is more psychological than measurable. However, as you note, JBL did not usually build speakers in mirror imaged pairs in this era as I think any consumer speaker (except the 250 and its iterations) that was boxed individually was cranked out in mass and mirror imaging would mean they would have to track left and right speakers of each pair.

Before the t/T3 series, most home JBLs were matched pairs. The L112 and L96 come to mind. You didn't offer much description of what you did hear and liked, but if you heard a 12" or 10"-woofer blue-faced monitor, you could have heard studio versions of one of those. I'm gonna take a chance on showing my ignorance here and say the mirror-imaging was more important in a near-field monitor used in studio than it will be in your living room where you'll be sitting in a sweet-spot ten-feet away from your speakers, but go ahead and blind-test them yourself!

Don't pass up a pair of L100T or L80Ts since they seem to be more common than the T3 versions, might be in better condition, and cheaper. Members here can help with converting the crossover to T3 specs or you can find the later crossover on Ebay rather frequently. I've converted two-pair of L80Ts to T3s and never paid over $20 for a pair of T3 crossovers, shipped. That being said, I still prefer the sound of the L96 to the L80T/3 and many prefer the studio-version 4410 to the 4412s. There are a lot of people here slamming individual drivers and just recently we had a take-down of the 044 phenolic tweeter compared to the later titanium 035Ti/A, etc. I don't get it and my experience with the L150A, L112, and L96 just doesn't bear out such generalized damning of the 044. :dont-know:

You haven't told us what you listen too, how loud you listen, how big your room is, how much space you have for speakers (250s are HUGE!), or what the rest of your system is or will be. There are plenty of great JBLs out there and many of us have more than one we love and would recommend. I suspect you'll be happy with whatever choice you make until or unless you have a chance to put more than one pair in the same room.

And of course a favorite safe-bet for first-time JBL owners is always the L5 so don't forget those ugly black-tower series, particularly if you're looking for bang-for-the-buck. 48640

Altec Best
11-21-2010, 10:13 AM
Welcome to the board Toka! Best of Luck with your search, may you find the best pair of JBL's you can !! :bouncy:




Kind Regards ~ AB

Titanium Dome
11-21-2010, 11:08 AM
Before the t/T3 series, most home JBLs were matched pairs. The L112 and L96 come to mind.

And of course a favorite safe-bet for first-time JBL owners is always the L5 so don't forget those ugly black-tower series, particularly if you're looking for bang-for-the-buck. 48640

Before the t/T3 series, some home JBLs were matched pairs. The L112 comes to mind as one that was, sold "matched" since they were mirrored and dealers were SOL if they sold two lefts and were stuck with two rights. The L100, L150, L65 Jubal, L200, L300, L220, L40, and the L166 were neither matched nor mirrored. One could go into any JBL dealer (in NW Ohio and SW Michigan) and buy a single, a pair, three, or ten if one wished. I doubt the L96 was "matched' too, but maybe some dealers sold it as a "matched pair" only. It was not sold near me.

The L5 recommendation is a good one. It's not a blue-faced monitor. It is however, among the best performing used JBLs out there for under $500 a pair used, and ugly is subjective. ;) Ask my mom.

BMWCCA
11-21-2010, 05:11 PM
The L100, L150, L65 Jubal, L200, L300, L220, L40, and the L166 were neither matched nor mirrored. One could go into any JBL dealer (in NW Ohio and SW Michigan) and buy a single, a pair, three, or ten if one wished. I doubt the L96 was "matched' too, but maybe some dealers sold it as a "matched pair" only.
Yes, I miss-remembered and misspoke. Thanks for correcting that. Of course the tech papers on the L112 go to great lengths extolling the virtues of mirror-imaging pairs, but the benefits were pitched for horizontal use, not vertical. Since for most of my life my JBLs (030 C37, L112, 4412A) were mirrored, I guess I applied wishful thinking to the L96s. Obviously doesn't hurt their performance, to answer the original question in this thread! ;)

At least JBL bothered to mirror the L7 pairs, on the front baffle as well as the obvious side-firing 12-inchers. 48652

Hooster
11-21-2010, 07:27 PM
The only JBL speakers I ever had were L20T. In a small room with a big amp, 100 watts+ they were very satisfying.

BMWCCA
11-21-2010, 10:12 PM
The only JBL speakers I ever had were L20T. In a small room with a big amp, 100 watts+ they were very satisfying.

And no one is questioning that here. I have a pair in my daughter's room running with a Crown PS-200 and a Soundcraftsmen Pro-PT Two. They sound quite nice. Check the Virginia small JBL shootout to see how they compared: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?28072-JBL-mini-comparo

Wayne
11-22-2010, 12:42 AM
JBL (http://JBL) did not usually build speakers in mirror imaged pairs in this era as I think any consumer speaker (except the 250 and its iterations) that was boxed individually was cranked out in mass and mirror imaging would mean they would have to track left and right speakers of each pair. At this time, JBL also didn't sell "Matched" pairs, by the way.

Actualy my L110's are a matched pair, there numbers being 18881 & 18882 :D

I do like those numbers.

Cheers Wayne
:cheers:

Titanium Dome
11-22-2010, 07:19 AM
Actualy my L110's are a matched pair, there numbers being 18881 & 18882 :D

I do like those numbers.

Cheers Wayne
:cheers:

That's cute. I can imagine them coming down the assembly line veneer touching veneer, holding hands, and being together ever after. :)


But what if 18881 really should have been with 18880? :banghead: I can only imagine being chained for life to the wrong match!

4313B
11-22-2010, 07:21 AM
But what if 18881 really should have been with 18880? :banghead: I can only imagine being chained for life to the wrong match!Dammit Dome! I JUST ran those numbers and 18880 WAS the correct mate. How tragic! :(

Altec Best
11-22-2010, 07:27 AM
What the man should have said was that mines are Sequential !!!!!! :D

Wayne
11-22-2010, 06:37 PM
What the man should have said was that mines are Sequential !!!!!! :D

:rotfl:

Now this is why I like this place so much, I've never enjoyed having the piss taken out of me before let alone laugh my ass off, but the above reply's are fantastic. :lol_fit:

Thanks for pointing out my short-comings guys, but it's all a learning curve for me & if you all don't point out where I'm getting it wrong then I'd be living a life of ignorance. :eek:

Welcome Toka, I hope you enjoy your time here as much as I have. :D

Cheers wayne
:cheers:

Titanium Dome
11-22-2010, 06:50 PM
:rotfl:

Now this is why I like this place so much, I've never enjoyed having the piss taken out of me before let alone laugh my ass off, but the above reply's are fantastic. :lol_fit:

Thanks for pointing out my short-comings guys, but it's all a learning curve for me & if you all don't point out where I'm getting it wrong then I'd be living a life of ignorance. :eek:

Welcome Toka, I hope you enjoy your time here as much as I have. :D

Cheers wayne
:cheers:

No worries, mate. We all knew what you meant, yet saw the opening for jocularity. I'll toss one back in your honor tonight. :cheers:

Some day when you see my pants fall down on some JBL matter, be sure to yell, "Hey everyone, look at that!" :moon: (The odds are in your favor.)

Rolf
11-23-2010, 12:53 PM
I remember my first meeting with the forum. At that time I was "Green" . Then I turned Yellow, then Red. I wonder where I am now. Sure this is "Off Topic".

grumpy
11-23-2010, 02:40 PM
If you make it through several Black and Blue Periods,
then you have been properly seasoned...
hopefully realizing you are still Green after all,
and the actual fun can begin.

shaansloan
11-23-2010, 06:15 PM
Anyway I recently heard some that knocked my socks off...don't recall the model # but they were pro monitors with a blue face. Anyway, wow! :eek:

I've since been looking at picking up a pair (or more) of JBL's for myself. Looking at the various models in the library and reading up here it appears that the 'T3' line would be a good fit for me. I say that because I would want to have, at the very least, fronts/rears from the same line, and the fronts would have to have sufficient bass output on their own without a sub. I like a balanced, punchy sound...listen to just about everything but mostly classic/hard rock. Also getting into '78s from the big band era. Oh, and they can't cost an arm and a leg.

I'm also open to suggestions for other JBL's to keep an eye out for...250ti's seem like a great choice but not sure I'd be able to get them for a reasonable price.



Hey Toka, welcome to the forum...

Why don't you tell us what your budget is and we'll recommend the best fit as JBL's can range in price from $100 to $70,000 or more, depending on what your after. Most blue face JBL Pro monitors are gonna run you any where from $500 to $8000 or more, depending on model, condition, etc... But one thing is for sure, you won't be disappointed. Moreover, depending on your budget, there might be a better fit than a pro monitor, like the 250ti you mention... But those are easy to come by and will cost you upwards of $2000, if you can even find them, it would be rare to find them for less.

No matter which way you go, it will be happy listening for sure. :) Shaan

rgwalker
11-24-2010, 12:51 AM
I was waiting for someone else to say it but why not try Altecs? They are in the same league but different enough to appeal to those with a slightly different taste than JBL. It's Pepsi or Coke.

Bob W

rgwalker
11-24-2010, 01:19 AM
Hey Toka, welcome to the forum...

No matter which way you go, it will be happy listening for sure. :) Shaan

Shaan: What are you using for a crossover with the 604s? It's been a couple of years since we discussed it and I see them in the photo.

I may have lost your email address.

Bob Walker
walkerent@cox.net

shaansloan
11-24-2010, 06:41 AM
Shaan: What are you using for a crossover with the 604s? It's been a couple of years since we discussed it and I see them in the photo.

I may have lost your email address.

Bob Walker
walkerent@cox.net Hey Bob, I am using the N1600's......but these are 605A's. The cabs are 4.13 cu ft and I have them tuned at 39 hz. I really dig them, they are sweet!

shaansloan AT att.net

Toka
03-14-2011, 05:01 PM
Hi again everyone...my apologies for not checking back in sooner. Long story!

Anyway, after a bit more looking around (ie, window shopping), I'm thinking the L80t3 or L100t3 might be the sweet spot for me to start. My budget isn't much...$500 (including refurb costs) would be about the most I want to spend, though less would be welcome. Have other holes to fill as well! 250's would be great but just don't seem realistic at the moment.

My musical taste is quite varied, and I really do listen to everything. Though the my bread and butter is hard rock/classic rock/prog...Hawkwind, Black Sabbath, Uriah Heep, UFO, Grateful Dead, and so forth. I like some acoustic stuff, jazz, folk, and whatnot too but the rock is where its at (and what blew me away when I heard JBL's done proper for the first time not that long ago).

Thank you again for the advice and the warm welcome. I'll be sure to check back a bit sooner this time. :o:

DavidF
03-14-2011, 09:15 PM
"...My musical taste is quite varied, and I really do listen to everything. Though the my bread and butter is hard rock/classic rock/prog...Hawkwind, Black Sabbath, Uriah Heep, UFO, Grateful Dead, and so forth..." :o:

Uriah Heep?? Holy Mick Box...

Go for the largest woofer. Get as much JBL punch as your budget will allow.

Regis
03-17-2011, 10:07 AM
The L100T3 has the 2214H 12" woofer. That will be sufficient to give you a pounding if ya need it! One of my favorite 12"! If you can't find a L100T3, a 4311 or 4312 will give you a lot for your money too.

Toka
03-19-2011, 10:44 AM
Thanks guys! I guess whether or not I go for the 80t3 or the 100t3 will depend on where I end up after my (eternally) pending move.

As for Uriah Heep, I finally had the chance to see them last year...and will be seeing them again this year! Only this time I will be right in front of Mick. :D

pathfindermwd
04-01-2011, 03:16 PM
Welcome to the forum, hope you have fun!

If you heard and liked blue-face monitors, most likely they were the 43xx series from the late70's/early80's. These were built for recording studios, ranged from 8" 2-ways to 18" 4-ways, and were the first JBL's to use time alignment in the crossover. They are lots of fun to listen to, as you've heard:)

You mention the "T3" series, which was in there consumer line from about '88-'92. It's my favorite series, especially the L100T3, which really rocks. Unfortunately, there are some drawbacks which may make collecting it difficult or require patience. Mainly it was Harman's use of reconstituted wood veneer on this series that seems to keep the series from holding up well over time. The veneer is thin and not very hard, so edges and corners tend to get crushed easily. Also, the reddish ("Walnut") finish fades pretty easy, so most samples have a "Bikini tan", where the section behind the fabric grill looks great, but the exposed section above/below is faded. Because the veneer is not natural, and is not available for purchase (if you find a source, let me know!), you cannot re-veneer the cabinets, and the thinness of the veneer precludes you from sanding and restaining them. So, if you are a meticulous collector, it will be very hard to find pristine examples, especially in the more common, smaller sizes (L20t3, L40t3). However, if you can live with some fading/scratches, their really fun to listen to.

Next, there is no matching center speaker for the series, so you can use a L20t3 if a vertical speaker works in your system. JBL didn't catch on to the surround thing for quite a while, as even the next series (L1, L3, L5, L7) didn't have a matching center.

Regarding mirror-imaging, here's a good link for information on edge diffraction:
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/diffraction.htm

You'll see that you get smoother frequency response by offsetting the drivers, which JBL did, though it doesn't matter to which side you offset them, and mirror imaging is more psychological than measurable. However, as you note, JBL did not usually build speakers in mirror imaged pairs in this era as I think any consumer speaker (except the 250 and its iterations) that was boxed individually was cranked out in mass and mirror imaging would mean they would have to track left and right speakers of each pair. At this time, JBL also didn't sell "Matched" pairs, by the way.

Since you're starting out on your collecting, here's my tips on this vintage:
1. Save up for a pair of 250Ti's. Period. There is nothing else close in this vintage and they're worth every penny. If you buy every other speaker and don't get a pair of these, you'll still wish you had a pair. If you buy a pair of these, you can skip everything else in the consumer line and not really miss much.
2. L100T3's are the best of the t3 series, though you can get L100T's and upgrade the crossover for the same sound. The earlier T series used a different veneer that while thin, was harder and resisted fade better, so you will find more clean examples of this series.
3. Avoid most of the Ti series. The 250Ti is of course excepted. The 18ti is a great sounding bookshelf, but is now sold at a premium for its tweeter, which is used to upgrade L-250's to 250ti's. The 120Ti and 240Ti are mediocre sounding speakers that are little more than boxes to hold valuable drivers (especially the 240Ti, which has LE14-1 woofers in it).

Good luck, and let us know what you hear that you really like!


The 240TI's are mediocre?? Can't agree, but I suppose it depends on what you want to listen to on them. I own a pair of L100T's with the T3 crossover and I have heard the 240TI's a few times and thought they sounded better, so I just bought a pair for $900.00. Soon I will have them side by side for a listen. The L100T/T3 is an awesome speaker! Way undervalued! All you see is the sound-stage, the speakers just disappear, and don't draw attention to themselves at all. You will look at them and swear the sound is not coming from them. I was just down in Denver for the speaker show and I honestly believe that my L100t's would blow the doors off of much of what I heard there. I would like to hide them behind a curtain and see what the offers would be! For rocking-out though, the 240TI's are a party speaker, I have never sat down to critically listen to them. The first time I ever heard a pair of 250TI's I thought they were junk, my friend didn't have them set up right and after just toeing them in, it was a night and day difference. Shortly after that another friend had both the his 240's and 250's in the same room, and all I can say is that I thought they sounded very similar, warm, not bright like my L100t's. My friend also owns L7's and while competent feels it is inferior to the L100t's. I think that is because the L100t is such a lively musical speaker, not necessarily superior in technical terms, but just funner to listen to, groovier you could say.

If your budget is $500 that will get you into a pair of L100T/T3's. The thing nobody mentioned yet, is that you cannot rock out with these speakers with just any amp, you need a LOT of power, period. The L100t's play beautifully at low power (I can't even describe how well), but will eat up more watts than most amps will deliver at high volumes. I have a 150 watt per channel NAD, and it still isn't enough for my listening tastes (or the 12" woofers), so, like me, be ready to shell out for a 250+ watt amp.:blink:

Best of luck for whatever you decide!

hjames
04-01-2011, 05:09 PM
Hi again everyone...my apologies for not checking back in sooner. Long story!

Anyway, after a bit more looking around (ie, window shopping), I'm thinking the L80t3 or L100t3 might be the sweet spot for me to start. My budget isn't much...$500 (including refurb costs) would be about the most I want to spend, though less would be welcome. Have other holes to fill as well! 250's would be great but just don't seem realistic at the moment.

My musical taste is quite varied, and I really do listen to everything. Though the my bread and butter is hard rock/classic rock/prog...Hawkwind, Black Sabbath, Uriah Heep, UFO, Grateful Dead, and so forth. I like some acoustic stuff, jazz, folk, and whatnot too but the rock is where its at (and what blew me away when I heard JBL's done proper for the first time not that long ago).

Thank you again for the advice and the warm welcome. I'll be sure to check back a bit sooner this time. :o:

Oh yeah - if you can't find L100T3, get a pair of L100T (basically same drivers but improved xover) and have Duanage upgrade your T crossovers to T3 ... really a great enhancement!! And the woofs have such a nice kick!

Don Mascali
04-02-2011, 05:55 AM
I agree with the L100t3 recommendation, I have three pair under roof.
I recently picked up a pair of L7's. Again a fantastic speaker but it needs a lot of room to br set up properly. Both of these do well with a high power amp. Your $500 should get you into some good consumer JBL.

Please try to listen to some big JBL Pro monitors. a 15" or 18" woofer with a horn on top will blow your socks of.

Good luck on you quest.