Magico speakers

[tom1040]

I heard a pair of the 89K version. Powered by alot of ( I think) Boulder equipment. The listening room total price tag must of been in excess of 150K. The mono blocks looked like medium sized shipping crates.

The sound totally underwhelmed me. The sales person, Al, was very nice. The room was treated very well ( I think )---much better than my "non-treated" room.

Sound? Sterile was the first thing that came to mind. Man, I am glad I have two pair of speakers that actually are not only 'real' sounding, but cost a lot less than 89 K.

89K.

To me JBL 1400 Arrays as well as my S/2600's are IT for me. If the Magico is "HIGH END", count me as among the confused.:eek:

Seriously. WWOOWW.

[Mr. Widget]

Hmmm....

I have heard numerous Magico systems in numerous rooms. I have a pair of 1400 Arrays at home and love them. Are the Magicos worth what they cost? That is a personal question each owner must decide. Are the 1400 Arrays excellent speakers? I think so. Are the various Magico speakers excellent? I absolutely think so. Has every room/system I have heard the Magicos in sounded fabulous? Absolutely not.


Widget

[tom1040]

I suppose the people who have that kind of coin burning a hole in thier pocket would surely buy these. I do not dispute that. All I am saying is that if I had that $$$$, Magico would be ruled out for me.

Not my style. Although he did say it took the amps 2 hours to warm up and they wouldn't sound as good until that time. Perhaps that was the problem:dont-know:

[4313B]

Although he did say it took the amps 2 hours to warm up and they wouldn't sound as good until that time. Perhaps that was the problem:dont-know:Probably... :rolleyes:

[tom1040]

Has anyone heard these monster amps? Man, they were huge!!!! They made my McIntosh MC402 look like a bose wave radio. Freaky. Granted, they were monoblocks-but..wtf?

[4313B]

Has anyone heard these monster amps? Man, they were huge!!!! They made my McIntosh MC402 look like a bose wave radio. Freaky. Granted, they were monoblocks-but..wtf?Nope. I can't think of anything off the top of my head that I wait two hours for...

[jerry_rig]

Not knowing the model number, it is possible the Boulders take time to warm up. They are solid state and these sometimes mellow as their transistors reach their operating range. But two hours seems excessive.

Separately, the large Magico speakers are at the top of my list. You probably heard the M5 speakers which use a sandwiched ply for cabinets. These are being replaced by the Q5, which lists for about $30K less, and is constructed entirely out of aluminum. Early reports are that these are even better. :applaud:

[richluvsound]

Jerry,Tom,

I could live with these :applaud:.




I have know idea what they sound like though . If Widget says their good then they its worth keeping an open mind

Rich

[tom1040]

Jerry,Tom,

I could live with these :applaud:.




I have know idea what they sound like though . If Widget says their good then they its worth keeping an open mind

Rich

Rich,

Those were in the front room. Massive and looked really nice.

[DavidF]

Nope. I can't think of anything off the top of my head that I wait two hours for...

My waffle iron only takes 5 minutes on Sunday morning.

[Titanium Dome]

Grumpy and I heard some Magicos at the CAAS, as did Ian. My comment was something like "I feel someone has poured sawdust down my throat... ack-ack-ACKK-ACKK!!!" I thought them dry and more than a little irritating over time. The gent doing the demo was very personable and gracious. Too bad I didn't like the product.

The top of the line gear was not there, but what we heard was not cheap! Both the Array 1400 and K2 S9900 are better bargains, as is the Revel Ultima2 Salon. Even the lowest priced of the three, the 1400, was far better sounding to me than any of the Magicos actually in use.

[grumpy]

...setting aside my casual interpretations of material from Drs. Olive and Toole for a moment,
I'm convinced people focus on different things that float their audio boat... especially
during brief audio encounters.

The Magico's (V3?), for instance, sounded absolutely wonderful to me while they were playing
some Wurlitzer-like tunes, ... they put me in a large hall (or roller rink) with reasonable
believability. Honestly, I don't even recall if Doug was even in the room at that point.
Other material? not so much. I'd want to hear something I was very familiar with before
praising or dumping on someone's effort, but I did not press for that opportunity.
(FWIW, the V3 system was $25K/pair in 2007)

I guess my point is I would claim one person's "ooh+meh" and another's "ack-ack-ACKK-ACKK!!!"*
are reconcilable opinions, given personal sensitivities, audio priorities, etc...

I would have liked to have heard one of Magico's less "modest" systems, but they were not
available for listening the day I was present at the show.

*Just got through watching Mars Attacks on Blu-ray. :D

[Mr. Widget]

The Magico's (V3?), for instance, sounded absolutely wonderful to me while they were playing
some Wurlitzer-like tunes, ... they put me in a large hall (or roller rink) with reasonable
believability. Honestly, I don't even recall if Doug was even in the room at that point.
Other material? not so much. I'd want to hear something I was very familiar with before
praising or dumping on someone's effort, but I did not press for that opportunity.
(FWIW, the V3 system was $25K/pair in 2007)

I guess my point is I would claim one person's "ooh+meh" and another's "ack-ack-ACKK-ACKK!!!"*
are reconcilable opinions, given personal sensitivities, audio priorities, etc...

I would have liked to have heard one of Magico's less "modest" systems, but they were not
available for listening the day I was present at the show.FWIW: I have only heard the V3 briefly and have no real opinion of it. I have heard the Minis many times at length and in many rooms with lots of source material and different systems. They will not reproduce organ music in a large room... duh! But in general they sound fabulous. I have also heard a number of their other systems including their TOTL gigantic horn system that runs several hundred $K... and it is just that impressive!


Widget

[Steve Schell]

I met Alon Wolf in 2006 at The Show and had a listen to the Minis that he was showing that year. I thought they sounded very good for their size, and I admired his uncompromising approach to everything he was doing. Since then he's been getting plenty of ink and good reviews, well deserved methinks. This speaker biz is a rough game and he's making it.

[jpw]

Sorry for the long post.............but there is a point, food for though and a discussion of Magico below.

I've been in high end audio retailing for 35 years now. Over those 35 years I have had a growing hypothesis that most audiophiles who are long time readers or believers in Stereophile or TAS's philosophy (I'm a reader too!), have created their own art form in listening to recorded music. From this perspective they try to extrapolate the sound of live music in their mind/brain. I see nothing wrong with this since we can't transport ourselves at will to live performances of our choice and must usually rely on playing back recordings in our home to enjoy music. You can also see how a person limited to listening to recordings rather than performing live music might obsess on a few sonic traits to the exclusion of other aspects of reproduced sound. This is because their brain is missing some of the experience they would have had if they were able to spend time being around or making live music. So this might explain how you end up with a $30,000 mini monitor with the world's greatest sound stage but other obvious sonic limitations. If the mini monitor most effectively transports the listener in his mind to where he wants to be, it is the right speaker for him. It's just as valid of a design effort as the three way horn system with all of it's problems that takes the next guy to audio nirvana. BTW, you may be surprised to learn Magico makes both types.

However my involvement in actually regularly playing live music reminds me that the things I value most in a loudspeaker (or playback system) are the qualities that most recall the live experience itself. By experience I mean not just the sound, but the feel of it as well. By feel I don't mean merely sheer SPL, but dynamics as well as attack, tempo and overall gusto. Here the JBL's and other well designed large displacement higher sensitivity speakers trump not just Magico but nearly all audiophile speakers I have heard. In this regard, I consider the Everest near or at the top of the speaker world, pun intended. So if you accept my hypothesis you can see why two different camps of listeners and therefore designers have evolved. I think my hypothesis also goes a long way in explaining why there is such a gulf (they don't talk with each other very often) between the consumer and professional side of audio.

What do you think of my explanation?

Regarding the speakers themselves, comparing upper end JBL (Everest) with Magico (Q5) and you are bound to have two different worlds colliding. Both are valid design choices with goals of perfection, but with different outcomes due to the fact that technology does not allow us to have it all in one package. They are also both near the $60,000 per pair price point.

My store happens to be one of the few in the US that stocks the JBL Everest. So it's my JBL point of reference for most of the comments below.
We are also considering adding Magico which is a clear alternative both in sound and appearance. Their Q5 is what I have spent the most time with.

So let's compare.

JBL's vented - Magico's sealed box. This is a huge design choice and has a lot to do with differences in sensitivity, output, transient response and bass extension differences.

JBL horn loaded - Magico direct radiators. JBL big woofers, Magico small woofers. Black and white differences in radiation patterns which effect tonal balance, imaging and room interaction.
Also onset and type of distortion components, ultimate output and stored energy.

JBL thick MDF cabinets - Magico aluminum and or Baltic birch/aluminum hybrid cabinets. Further differences in stored energy reflected in waterfall plots and transient response.

Some things they have in common would include beryllium diaphragms and general very high quality construction and parts. Also they are both multi way. JBL builds and designs their own transducers. Magico designs their own and has them built for them to a very high level of tolerance.

I can honestly say I love both brands but for different reasons. I think both Magico and JBL Everest - K2 - 1400 Array are on the leading edge of each design camp. The Magico has less cabinet coloration with more silence between the notes and is very box less sounding. They have taken Wilson Audio's lead in a quieter less resonant cabinet and advanced the science beyond them. Octave to octave, compared with Wilson Audio and JBL, they have a flatter and more accurate sounding bottom end. Not surprisingly they "disappear" better than a horn speaker which has lots of surface area and are a better point source. I have not heard all the Magico models but the Q5 (a stand out in this world of me too mega buck speakers) generally have less tonal coloration, although the Everest is surprisingly neutral, more so than most would think given it's horn design. However the Magico's are obviously compressed sounding, as most low to mid sensitivity "audiophile" speakers are. They lack dynamic contrast, and the explosive attack and aliveness the JBL's have. In short they and nearly all other speakers at the high end of the market are missing GESTALT. Which is more important to you?

[tom1040]

dynamic contrast, and the explosive attack and aliveness the JBL's have.

[Titanium Dome]

I can honestly say I love both brands but for different reasons. I think both Magico and JBL Everest - K2 - 1400 Array are on the leading edge of each design camp. The Magico has less cabinet coloration with more silence between the notes and is very box less sounding. They have taken Wilson Audio's lead in a quieter less resonant cabinet and advanced the science beyond them. Octave to octave, compared with Wilson Audio and JBL, they have a flatter and more accurate sounding bottom end. Not surprisingly they "disappear" better than a horn speaker which has lots of surface area and are a better point source. I have not heard all the Magico models but the Q5 (a stand out in this world of me too mega buck speakers) generally have less tonal coloration, although the Everest is surprisingly neutral, more so than most would think given it's horn design. However the Magico's are obviously compressed sounding, as most low to mid sensitivity "audiophile" speakers are. They lack dynamic contrast, and the explosive attack and aliveness the JBL's have. In short they and nearly all other speakers at the high end of the market are missing GESTALT. Which is more important to you?

As noted in another thread, I voted with a few dollars for JBL K2 S9900 rather than for Magico. Not only do I hear live music regularly (OXOMATLI last week at the Grammy Museum through JBL Vertec Arrays), but also my GF and I still play our instruments together in the music room downstairs at home (trumpet, clarinet, flute) so we have a sense of music from both sides of the instrument.

In that vein, I felt/heard music when I listen to the K2s, whereas I felt/heard sound when listening to the Magicos. Thus, the K2s are in my home; the Magicos are not.

In a discussion with the Magico rep, I was impressed by the build quality and attention to detail as he answered my questions about drivers, cabinetry, construction and design details. I could sense his pride in the cabinetry's craftsmanship and quality of components. They sounded really good, but I never once felt the gentle rain of soul-soaking music through them--just really good, dry, soul-parching sound.

I am not a dissector of sound like many of my audiophile friends are. I do not want to be crippled and damaged by the insatiable need to analyze sound reproduction to the point that it becomes a pursuit of numbers and graphs and microphones and curves rather than a pursuit of the joy of music. Sure, I look at that stuff and it provides a useful context, but I really just want the damn speaker to get out of the way and live up to its name: speak to me, to my heart, to my soul, to my brain, to my emotions, to my sentiment, to my memories, to my desires, to my hopes, to my disappointments, to my aesthetics, and to the rhythms of my body. When I listen to my JBL Performance Series, Synthesis® One Array, and now the K2s, this is what happens, and that's why they are in my house.

It's almost always been this way with my JBL acquisitions over the years, though there are some notable exceptions. :yes: Gestalt, yes, but more than that: soul.

Judging from the fact that most of my favorite JBLs that I own have been the children of Greg Timbers (L250, XPL200A, S/2600, Performance Series, SAM1HF, K2 S9900), it must be his soul. What a wonderful compliment (and complement!) to his work.

[4313B]

What do you think of my explanation?I like it.
JBL's vented - Magico's sealed box. This is a huge design choice and has a lot to do with differences in sensitivity, output, transient response and bass extension differences.The better vented JBL transducer/enclosure combinations exhibit quasi-third order characteristics, arguably the best compromise between second order seal box systems and the ubiquitous fourth order and higher vented box systems.

[Akira]

What do you think of my hypothesis regarding Magico versus JBL as examples?


I enjoyed reading your 'not so long' post. You said what I have always suspected and articulated it well.
I knew them there 'audiophiles' was missing some brain parts!;)

[jpw]

Hey 4313, interesting comment about the quasi third order alignment.
Which JBL models use this? What does the shape of the curve look like
on it's way down before it hits the tuning frequency (bump up, flat, gentle sag etc)?
I'm not an engineer but the Everest sounds to me like it might use this. It does not sound ported to me with better definition and tautness, yet has a steeper roll off than sealed box.

[jerry_rig]

Michael Fremer has a new review of the Q5s on the Stereophile site and largely echoes jpw's observations. His only negative comments are about the ability of the Q5 to deliver low-end impact, a feature near and dear to many of us here on this forum.

http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/magico_q5_loudspeaker/index.html

[Hooster]

Thanks, jpw for your fascinating and well informed post. I think there is quite a pronounced live cabinet vs dead cabinet debate out there. Try this for an interesting read:

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/livingvoice5/1.html

"The right type of chipboard created a naturally vibrant, energetic, powerful and radiant sound."

Living voice has the philosophy that the cabinets do, and SHOULD contribute to the sound. These speakers are highly respected and much loved so I am sure there is a lot of truth in what they say.

Verity of Canada has the same philosophy and I recently read about the experience of a person who owns a pair, along with a dCs digital source and Halcrow amplification. There was an electrician working in his house and he needed to talk to him. He went looking for the electrician but he was not where he was supposed to be. He found him in his music room, listening to his system. The electrician just stood there, awe struck and said that he did not think what he was hearing was possible. It sounded just like live music and he had never heard anything like it from a sound system.

What do I think personally? I suspect that well implemented live is better than dead. Did you ever hear a guitar made of aluminum?

PS
According the the makers of YG acoustics they make the best speakers in the world. If you ask me they can keep them. I will take the baddest speakers any day over the self perceived "best".