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View Full Version : Roger Waters of Pink Floyd - The Wall = Canned Music



robertbartsch
10-19-2010, 07:30 AM
I saw this show this past weekend and they used flown JBL equipment inside a 20K seat hockey arena. I will try to post some pics later.

After seeing lots of recent inside concerts with very bad acustics, I made a pledge not to do this again but I don't regret this one. The sound quality was remarkably good - not much sound bouncing off the venue walls.

Anyway, what surprised me was the amount of "canned" music in the performance. I'm pretty certain about 50% of this show was recorded and played back without much assistence from the band on the stage. At one point during one song, the drums, and stage amps and musicians were moved off the stage but the music continued!!!!! I suppose this means Roger does not care about using canned music at a live performance - BOOOOOO!

Maybe I'm wrong but I doubt it. The cartoons flashed on the stage had lots of canned voices and sound effects.

In the two dozen performances I have sen in the last few years, I can't remember much "canned" music, so this was dissappointing.

hjames
10-19-2010, 07:39 AM
Completely agree - I go to a live show to see a live show, there have been too many shows lately with "Sweetener tracks" or canned stuff involved.

Its gotten so all I'm willing to pay to see lately is smaller venues with honestly live folks!

Festivals and that sort of thing qualify in spades ... music in your face!

robertbartsch
10-19-2010, 09:23 AM
I don't know how they got this flown JBL system to perform well in a cement hockey rink but it demonstrates that with good sound equipment and good engeneers that this can be done.

EVERYTHING I have seen lately in a big inside stadium has been a loud muddled mess and vocals could not be understood - sound bounced off the walls like tennis balls. This event was the lone exception to that expereince.

The entire performance sounded EXACTLY like all tracks on the Wall Album from the early 1980s, so I would not be surprised if the entire band was "fake" and merely there to look like it was live music - UHG!

Question for sound engineers: Would playback of recorded music in a 20K seat hockey rink be much easier to reproduce than a live band playing "un-canned" music?

Thx...

jerry_rig
10-19-2010, 03:55 PM
I saw The Wall performance two weeks ago in Madison Square Garden. We were waaaaay back and up pretty high (location-wise). My friends who attended with me and I are in a Pink Floyd cover band and cover much of the material from The Wall, so we know it cold (as does everyone else on earth).

Roger kept pretty much true to the album except for a few numbers (including Mother). No doubt much was canned -- most obviously the sound effects. But he seemed to have everything timed and choreographed closely. Not much spontaneity happening there.

My complaint with the sound was that, although it started out at a reasonable level, by the middle of the show it was way too load. The bass, in particular really reached down there and hit you deep in the chest. My guess is that little was happening below 40 Hz. But what you heard really moved you around.

All in all it was a good show, if a bit of a spectacle.

Jerry

Robh3606
10-19-2010, 04:38 PM
But he seemed to have everything timed and choreographed closely. Not much spontaneity happening there.

I was lucky to get a seat in the Nassau Coliseum that was in the 100's section right next to the stage so I saw it close-up at stage level. It was similar to the original I also saw there 30 years ago. Much of the TV and sound bits were obviously canned then as well. It was very closely choreographed and from my perspective most of it was a mix of live and canned. All of his vocals were the real deal and close up even though the band was behind the Wall we could see them playing through the holes almost the entire show.


My complaint with the sound was that, although it started out at a reasonable level, by the middle of the show it was way too load.

Comfortably Numb got really loud but most of it wasn't that bad.


Not much spontaneity happening there.

He was actually working the crowd with us. I was surprised he seemed to be having a really good time doing the show. He even did the stop singing and point the microphone at the crowd bit which to my surprise came off really well. We were all singing a bit louder than we thought. "13 channels of SHIT on the tv to chose from"

Rob:)

jerry_rig
10-19-2010, 05:29 PM
He even did the stop singing and point the microphone at the crowd bit which to my surprise came off really well. We were all singing a bit louder than we thought. "13 channels of SHIT on the tv to chose from"
Rob:)

Yes, he did exactly that with us as well. And I'm sure he'll do it at every other show on the schedule!

Robh3606
10-19-2010, 05:49 PM
Yes, he did exactly that with us as well. And I'm sure he'll do it at every other show on the schedule!

LOL Well he certainly was playing us!

Rob:D

robertbartsch
10-20-2010, 04:11 AM
I live in Westchester NY but traveled to Hartford Ct. to see the show in the cement hockey rink.

Anyway, the flying pig, the airplane crash, the cartoons and wall building/busting was a bit much for me. I would have been happy with a non-canned performance with no recorded BS.

I thought the members of Pink Floyd, principlly David Gilmore, were not crazy about the fluff and puff that Waters likes so they split. The origninal organ player died last spring so they will likely never unite as Floyd.

Is it true that a system that is too loud in a big echo chamber kills the sound quality? This system had two flown racks on each side of the stage and one flown stack in the back.

hjames
10-20-2010, 08:30 AM
Anyway, the flying pig, the airplane crash, the cartoons and wall building/busting was a bit much for me. I would have been happy with a non-canned performance with no recorded BS.

I thought the members of Pink Floyd, principally David Gilmour, were not crazy about the fluff and puff that Waters likes so they split. The original keyboard player died last spring so they will likely never unite as Floyd.
.

They had the airplane crash and all of that when I saw them in the 70s for the Wish You Were Here tour - I think a lot of fans expect that as part of the show, and for acts of that size, I just don't see them doing the band-only onstage thing without all that multimedia ... thats what makes them Pink, right?

I wasn't going to pay the kind of money they wanted for the DC show, so I have no idea if its happened here yet -

Robh3606
10-20-2010, 08:31 AM
Hello Rob



Anyway, the flying pig, the airplane crash, the cartoons and wall building/busting was a bit much for me. I would have been happy with a non-canned performance with no recorded BS.


Have you ever seen Pink Floyd?? The plane started at least as far back as the original Dark Side of the Moon Tour. The Pig started with Animals and the original Wall had all of the same types of theatrics as the one you just saw. Frankly it wouldn't be The Wall without them. The graphics, the actual Wall, the marionettes and the sound bits are all an integral part and the show and without The Wall it wouldn't have the same impact.

"Is there anybody in there?"

Have you seen the movie??

I suggest you see either David Gilmore or Roger when he comes back and does his regular show. Lots of lasers and smoke and visual effects but not as much canned back-round material. With those 2 there will always be some canned sound bites as they are unavoidable and part of the songs.


This system had two flown racks on each side of the stage and one flown stack in the back.

We had 5 2 fronts 2 sides and 1 rear. They were doing some surround with us at various points. Especially in the intro when they had the voices playing they were coming from different stacks. I was off to the side but on the floor it must have been a head turner with some of them.


Rob:)

robertbartsch
10-20-2010, 09:23 AM
I saw Pink Floyd only once in the early 1970s in a Jersey City NJ baseball field (outside) when the Dark Side of the Moon album was new. They had a quad sound system (Altec Lansing bass horns, large format compression drivers) that was driven by Crown DC-300s and it was very impressive - one of the best performances I have heard and witnessed in about 40 years of live shows.

I have a modern DVD of David Gilmore and the Band playing live in England from around 2005. Yeh, the recorded DVD performance had lazers and a real church bell. It did not have flying planes, cartoons, giant walls, huge puppets, fireworks, etc.

I thought the band breakup was due in part to Waters insistence on using this stuff which the other guys did not like????

Anyway, it was a good show and the sound system was excellent considering the stadium was a concrete hockey rink (Hartford Ct. XL Center)

Robh3606
10-20-2010, 09:47 AM
I saw Pink Floyd only once in the early 1970s in a Jersey City NJ baseball field (outside) when the Dark Side of the Moon album was new.

We saw the same tour back then too:D. I saw them in the Nassau Coliseum when it was a new arrena back then! I really enjoyed it.


I thought the band breakup was due in part to Waters insistence on using this stuff which the other guys did not like????

That could have been part of it. They had some bad blood for years.


I have a modern DVD of David Gilmore and the Band playing live in England from around 2005.

How do you like it??

Rob:)

robertbartsch
10-20-2010, 10:58 AM
The Dark Side tour in the early 1970s was great! They did have the model plane crash I think, some stage smoke and recorded ticking clocks as I recall, but it was not that big a deal that you came away wondering if you just saw a heavily staged rock opera. I was a fan of their music before Dark Side when crazy Sid recorded some tracks that were not really "music."

My GF at the time of the old concert was hit with an open plastic mustard bottle during the show. My car was busted into in the parking lot and the stereo (quad) 8-track was gone.

Bad blood - yeh I think they all sued each other in the mid 1980s to see who could use the Floyd name.

The new David Gilmore DVD is super; I doubt David will tour again as he is getting too long in the tooth.
Apparently, he was devistated at the death of the original organ player this year.

I am kinda miffed with the idea that Roger Water's sound engineers can perform well in a concrete jungle and no one else seems able to do this. My days watching concerts in big halls with bad acustics is OVER.

I assumed the new flying stacks had something to do with most all of the poor acustics performances inside but, this is not really true. The old stage placed reinforcement systems with bass horns seemed much better in these difficult venues but apperently the flown systems are capable of good performances too.

Who ever did the Roger Waters sound should teach the other clowns the industry how to mix an indoor show with success.

jerry_rig
10-20-2010, 02:28 PM
Here are some shots (from my phone) of the MSG show.

Oldmics
10-22-2010, 08:35 PM
Question for sound engineers: Would playback of recorded music in a 20K seat hockey rink be much easier to reproduce than a live band playing "un-canned" music?

Thx...

Yes

Oldmics

AmericanPie
10-28-2010, 12:06 PM
I saw them play at an outdoor concert in Milwaukee Stadium in the early 70's but don't recall any plane crashes. But then, it was sort of a "lost weekend" ;) and I probably missed a lot. This was before the Wish You Were Here and The Wall albums so there were probably no flying pigs yet.

I distinctly remember "Echoes" and in the state I was in, it seemed like all the fellow freaks in the audience were moving around the playing field in slow motion, stepping over lying bodies as if "dancing" to the music. Very eerie with the seagulls and all, and it left a lasting impression on this long-since reformed stoner.

robertbartsch
10-30-2010, 04:07 PM
I suspect the vocals were live but all the guitars, bass, drums, organ etc, were 100% canned which is unfortunate.

Robh3606
10-30-2010, 05:13 PM
All canned? Not the show I went too

Rob

Akira
10-31-2010, 06:18 AM
Question for sound engineers: Would playback of recorded music in a 20K seat hockey rink be much easier to reproduce than a live band playing "un-canned" music?

While the answer to that is a yes, I would argue the biggest difference is the band, type of music and HOW LOUD THEY PLAY!
Van Halen is notorious for bad sound because the guitar is louder in the singers mic than the singer. Pink Floyd has always been considered an engineers dream and for most the ultimate gig-- controlled, lush, separation between mics and great musicianship.
The biggest difference in systems I have setup is a show featuring 'Theater in the Round' because the wave length starts from the same point and projects outward fairly evenly. Even empty stadiums sound pretty good with this setup.

What I don't understand, (and maybe current engineers can comment) is why do these new line arrays not sound as good as the older systems? I have seen some of the same acts under similar conditions including Genesis and Yes, and sorry but the sound ain't as good. In the case of Yes, their performance 30 years later was exactly the same including the poor backup vocals and the identical timing mistakes by Steve Howe on guitar--talk about consistency.

Altec Best
10-31-2010, 11:22 AM
I seen Roger Waters 4 times in his last tour (Dark Side) best show i ever seen.Front row for 2 of those shows second row for one and first level for the other and I can tell you it sounded much better down in front of the stage.Here's a little video i shot of the Denver show.I have plenty of video of that show.Enjoy the video it gives me goosebumps every time i watch it. Carol Kenyon belting out the "Great Gig" I always love to see him do "Shine on you Crazy Diamond" which i have on Video as well,but not this time. I admit "The Wall" isn't my favorite Pink Floyd album.

I haven't seen the Wall yet but will very soon Front row and second row for the 2 shows I'm going to.Roger Waters friggin Rocks !! I think you may feel it is canned because much of the show is BEHIND the wall.

http://www.youtube.com/v/Tg5URUetTMM?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param

yggdrasil
10-31-2010, 01:56 PM
I just barely got tickets for his extra concert in Oslo on May 1st next year.

The whole ticket sale was done in two hours. They opened the ticket sale at 9 am, and when I got through on the web-site around 10.45, the only seats available was category 4 on an unannounced extra concert...

Will go with my brother and two of our long time friends - a real boys weekend in our capital :bouncy:

Akira
10-31-2010, 06:25 PM
Here's a little video i shot of the Denver show.I have plenty of video of that show.Enjoy the video it gives me goosebumps every time i watch it. Carol Kenyon belting out the "Great Gig"
http://www.youtube.com/v/Tg5URUetTMM?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param (http://www.youtube.com/v/Tg5URUetTMM?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US%22%3E%3C/param%3E%3Cparam)
Amazing how well this music stands up after 40 years. Amazing how good it sounds captured on a low level cam. Dark Side is surely one of the greatest performances created on this planet.

Side note:
When this came out a friend said to me of 'Great Gig in the Sky": 'A life long whore, born of misfortune and surviving through prostitution and drug abuse has died and is singing her soul out begging for redemption and a chance to go to heaven.'

Altec Best
11-01-2010, 12:11 PM
Amazing how well this music stands up after 40 years. Amazing how good it sounds captured on a low level cam.

Actually I shot it on a HP MZ67 :D

Altec Best
11-08-2010, 12:35 PM
Showtime tonight, Boys & Girls ! :D

Altec Best
11-12-2010, 02:48 PM
Well went to my second show last night in Philly.I don't know how the acoustics in those other Venues are but at the Wachovia/Wells Fargo center they were Superb !!! I tried to get a look at the speakers but could not see a label or anything that would Identify them.Could be JBL's 15"-18" subs. :thmbsup:The local radio station in Philly 93.3 WMMR said it was a Quadrophonic sound system. If you have a chance on seeing the show I highly recommend going.It will most likely be his last major tour as he is approaching 70 years of age,but still looks great and puts on one Heck of a show. Keep Rockin Roger "Your the Man" !!:applaud:No doubt which ones "Pink" !! It takes 26 tractor trailers to move the 112 tons of equipment to city to city,no to mention the manpower,it's in the 200's !! There are 6 fulltime sound men on this tour. Thanks Roger & Band for a wonderful Show !!

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu255/Altec_Best/Roger%20Waters%20The%20Wall%20Show%2011-8-10/IMG_0073.jpg


http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu255/Altec_Best/Roger%20Waters%2011-11-10/HPIM2679.jpg


http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu255/Altec_Best/Roger%20Waters%2011-11-10/HPIM2693.jpg


http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu255/Altec_Best/Roger%20Waters%2011-11-10/HPIM2771.jpg

Tom Brennan
11-13-2010, 05:43 PM
Pink Floyd? How can you guys stay awake long enough to tell whatever it is that's going on; canned or not?

Rip van Winkle.

Altec Best
11-14-2010, 06:25 AM
I first would suggest that you go to bed at night and then maybe you won't have trouble with falling a sleep !The post was for the Pink Floyd fans, since you are not. Why Bother posting Rip ? http://www.hostboard.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif Your commenting on something you haven't even seen !

And what do you listen to ? I like all kinds of music ! Not just Pink Floyd.

Tom Brennan
11-14-2010, 12:27 PM
And what do you listen to ? I like all kinds of music ! Not just Pink Floyd.


I listen alot to Anita O'Day, Sarah Vaughn, Johnny Hartman and stuff like that.

I also listen to movie scores by fellas like Korngold, Tiomkin and Rosza. And Show Tunes too.

Modern Pop music mostly 50s Rock and Roll and Doo-Wop, The Ramones and Thin Lizzy. Stuff that moves. And Madonna, I like Madonna. Been listening to that Lady GaGa too.

Altec Best
11-14-2010, 03:02 PM
I listen alot to Anita O'Day, Sarah Vaughn, Johnny Hartman and stuff like that.

I also listen to movie scores by fellas like Korngold, Tiomkin and Rosza. And Show Tunes too.

Modern Pop music mostly 50s Rock and Roll and Doo-Wop, The Ramones and Thin Lizzy. Stuff that moves. And Madonna, I like Madonna. Been listening to that Lady GaGa too.

Well I'm not too thrilled with some of those performers.But see that's what makes the world go around. ;)

MikeM
11-15-2010, 07:25 PM
I saw them in about 1977 at solders field (superbowl of rock) chicago. 5 Channel set up kicked. Animals tour. Rodger played out here this month wasn't about to pay 120+ a ticket unless it was the original band. Sounds like a good idea..

John
11-15-2010, 09:28 PM
[QUOTE=MikeM;299571Rodger played out here this month wasn't about to pay 120+ a ticket unless it was the original band.[/QUOTE]

Ya, I want to see the Beatles as well.

Altec Best
11-16-2010, 11:08 AM
I was happy just seeing Roger would have liked David Gilmour/Nick Mason to come trotting out there as well.But that will never happen.I wasn't happy with the ticket prices either.On their original tour of "The Wall" ticket prices were $15 and they only played 31 shows in 4 cities.They lost a ton of money and as why the tour was so short.If you understand the amount of people who work on putting these shows on,you begin to realize the costs involved.And of course a profit has to be made.But when I saw front row seats listed on Comcast Tix.com I almost fell of my chair,and couldn't find my credit card fast enough! I was getting front row at regular box office prices.That will never happen again. :D

jerry_rig
11-16-2010, 02:28 PM
Ya, I want to see the Beatles as well.

A bit OT, but I did see the Beatles in concert in August 1966 -- in St. Louis. We were just kids, but it was very cool for me and my siblings. Now, back to Roger...

Mike Caldwell
12-13-2010, 04:35 PM
The speakers in the pictures are not a JBL product. I almost certain they are Clair Brothers Audio I series. Most likely loaded with some JBL components. Clair at one time was all JBL but I think that may have changed a little.

Altec Best
12-19-2010, 02:29 PM
Good Eye Mike ! The array on the left is definitely Clair I found a picture at their site but the array on the right I can't find a picture of the Sub woofer boxes in that picture.

Altec Best
07-21-2011, 12:37 PM
@ (Yggdrasil -Johnny)

Hey Johnny, How was the show ? Did you guys have a good time of it ? :)

mark214
07-21-2011, 01:47 PM
I have attended 50+ Pink Floyd, Gilmour and Waters shows and I never ceased to be absolutely impressed with the excellent job they do in large arenas. I have seen other big name bands at the United Center in Chicago and Waters crew made the others look like amateurs with Springsteen being the worst.

And having seen a number of sound checks there is a fair amount of playback going on. It was amusing at the Fiddlers Green sound check in Denver 2000 to hear Waters using the album version of Comfortably Numb with Gilmour to point out to Doyle Bramhall how he was not playing as Gilmour did.

4343
07-21-2011, 06:27 PM
...

And having seen a number of sound checks there is a fair amount of playback going on. It was amusing at the Fiddlers Green sound check in Denver 2000 to hear Waters using the album version of Comfortably Numb with Gilmour to point out to Doyle Bramhall how he was not playing as Gilmour did.

That's funny!

The Dec 8th show in San Jose was fantastic. The did play a lot of canned music, pre-show and during the breaks, mostly John Lennon, in honor... :crying:

yggdrasil
07-22-2011, 03:15 AM
@ (Yggdrasil -Johnny)

Hey Johnny, How was the show ? Did you guys have a good time of it ? :)
Hi. Yes, we had a very good time.

The visual part of the show was fantastic. We didn't have good seats, so the sound was not great.

However we saw an improvising Roger Waters.... They had some technical problems with the wall. On (if I remember right) "Nobody home" he was supposed to sit alone up somewhere in the wall, but the mechanics failed and it would not open...

While trying to fix it Waters came on stage for a good 10 minutes in very good mood, telling stories.

Definitely worth the trip. Since it is a 2 hour flight to Oslo we filled in some other activities and made it an oval weekend. First, on friday we saw/heard a cover band called "Pulse of Floyd". They were much closer to the original sound than Waters... but then again Waters is the creative source. Then on saturday we visited the opera, seeing an opera version of Frankenstein - trying to make the perfect tenor. Fantastic experience - absurd theater! Before finishing off on sunday with Waters.

Altec Best
07-23-2011, 11:37 AM
Hi. Yes, we had a very good time.

The visual part of the show was fantastic. We didn't have good seats, so the sound was not great.

However we saw an improvising Roger Waters.... They had some technical problems with the wall. On (if I remember right) "Nobody home" he was supposed to sit alone up somewhere in the wall, but the mechanics failed and it would not open...

While trying to fix it Waters came on stage for a good 10 minutes in very good mood, telling stories.

Definitely worth the trip. Since it is a 2 hour flight to Oslo we filled in some other activities and made it an oval weekend. First, on friday we saw/heard a cover band called "Pulse of Floyd". They were much closer to the original sound than Waters... but then again Waters is the creative source. Then on saturday we visited the opera, seeing an opera version of Frankenstein - trying to make the perfect tenor. Fantastic experience - absurd theater! Before finishing off on sunday with Waters.

Very Cool ! It was nice that you were able to make a weekend of it. :applaud:My wife and I really enjoyed the show,but we would have enjoyed anything from Floyd,Waters,Gilmour,etc... :D

Having said that though,Rogers previous tour "Dark Side Of the Moon" in 2006-08 was way better IMO.The band is hard to see through the wall.:blink: The Wall was still a great show though. :bouncy:


I think you are talking about the platform that swings out from the wall.It had a lazy boy chair,TV, and lamp on it that he sits in and sings. I snapped this one with cell phone so sorry for the blurry picture.

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu255/Altec_Best/3565496f.jpg

mark214
07-27-2011, 05:32 PM
Mark Fischer and Jonathon Park worked together for quite a number of years and then split off. Fischer did the U2 360 and the Wall shows among other things.



This is Fisher's site on the current Wall show and if you go to the start page you will see some of the other things he has done.

http://www.stufish.com/roger-waters/the-wall/reality.html

This is The site for Jonathon Park.

http://www.studiopark.co.uk/projects.htm


By the those who missed the Wall shows or would like to see it again they will likely be back early next year.

Altec Best
07-28-2011, 02:50 PM
By the those who missed the Wall shows or would like to see it again they will likely be back early next year.

What would make you think that ? Especially after completing a world tour.

mark214
07-28-2011, 03:46 PM
What would make you think that ? Especially after completing a world tour.

The tour is not over. He is doing Australia and South America January through March 2012 and a friend in the know said as of late June that it is 90% that he will hit the larger cities in the US and Canada. :D

Altec Best
07-28-2011, 10:43 PM
The tour is not over. He is doing Australia and South America January through March 2012 and a friend in the know said as of late June that it is 90% that he will hit the larger cities in the US and Canada. :D

Sounds like a plan. Thanks for the tip ! :bouncy: :D

mark214
09-29-2011, 03:41 PM
The tour is not over. He is doing Australia and South America January through March 2012 and a friend in the know said as of late June that it is 90% that he will hit the larger cities in the US and Canada. :D

He is returning with the Wall tour next year.:applaud:

Sadly some will be at baseball stadiums.
I will probably go to one stadium show, I have never been a fan of stadium sound but I will be interested in seeing the projections scaled up.