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Audionutz
10-03-2010, 08:55 PM
I've had the 1400's for about 2 months now from new and they probably have about 150-200 hours in total on them.

Apart from being simply amazing, even my wife says they also look fantastic !

I'm very happy with them, but have a query already ;). Now, this may well be a factor of them not having enough hours on them yet, but I thought I'd ask anyway.

Having the LE14 14" going up to 750 seems to be giving me a slight "hollowness" and lack of bite at certain frequencies - namely notes from double bass, bass guitar or lower male vocals such as Lennard Cohen etc.

I had a quick peek inside and saw there's no damping directly behind the driver ?

Is this something that would be worth trying ? I know it works well on other makes and models. I'm not talking masses of material, more like a couple of layers of Dacron, or similar sealed across the rear of the LE1400.

A couple of friends who have built speakers seconded this idea, not that that necessarily means a thing of course :D

All I'd be trying to do is attenuate the particular frequency in question, nothing else.

Of course, I could be barking up the wrong tree completely .... and it wouldn't be the first time either, I can assure you !

Cheers

'Nutz

Valentin
10-04-2010, 07:57 AM
what about room interactions

Audionutz
10-04-2010, 03:06 PM
That was something I also wondered about.

Is it possible, or likely, that room interactions could affect such a specific frequency ?

Please forgive what may be a seemingly obvious question, but this is one area I have very little experience with.

Cheers

'Nutz

Robh3606
10-04-2010, 05:08 PM
Hello Nutz

First off I don't share your experience with my clones. My first thought would also be to look into placement issues. A simple rule of thumb is to have no 2 dimensions the same with respect to a woofers distance from room boundary's. An example would be woofer height 2 ft and distance from back wall 2 ft and so on. The worst case would be all three dimensions the same. Mine are at least 3ft from any room boundary except the floor as far as the woofer is concerned which are about 26" to the center of the Le-14. See if any of the spacings match if they do try moving things around a little and see if it helps.

Could also be where you are seated so try moving your listening position as well or move around the room and see if the hollowness changes as you move around.

Post a picture of how they are positioned if you can.

Rob:)

Valentin
10-05-2010, 07:18 AM
Is it possible, or likely, that room interactions could affect such a specific frequency ?

what is the problematic frequency


in my opinion if it is below the 500 Hz it is probably a room interaction

arrays are not perfect but are very good in frequency response specially in the lower registers (that could be the problem) faithfulness

what about the recording that is a another big factor (many are far form being good) and you know what thy say bad in bad out

Mr. Widget
10-05-2010, 09:40 AM
I had a quick peek inside and saw there's no damping directly behind the driver ?

Is this something that would be worth trying ? I know it works well on other makes and models. I'm not talking masses of material, more like a couple of layers of Dacron, or similar sealed across the rear of the LE1400.First of all, these speakers are such a well balanced set of compromises I wouldn't start messing about with them. Secondly, Dacron is a pretty poor damping material. Thirdly, I won't speculate on what is or isn't happening in your system, but in my room while not perfect, the 1400s are close enough that I am content with them warts and all. I have very rarely ever felt this way. I have had these speakers for several months and am still enjoying the hell out of them.


Widget

Audionutz
10-05-2010, 12:57 PM
First of all, these speakers are such a well balanced set of compromises I wouldn't start messing about with them. Secondly, Dacron is a pretty poor damping material. Thirdly, I won't speculate on what is or isn't happening in your system, but in my room while not perfect, the 1400s are close enough that I am content with them warts and all. I have very rarely ever felt this way. I have had these speakers for several months and am still enjoying the hell out of them.


Widget

Well said. I fear I may be starting to fall into the "nitpicking" syndrome. In other words, they are so good that I'm looking for things to criticize.

I too have always found many things to pick on with almost every pair of speakers I've had - and there have been many. The 1400's make me smile, simple as that. Maybe after several years use, as different areas of technology improve, there might be room to improve them. But for now I think I need to settle down and get to know them better.

I will still post up some pics and room measurements to see if improvements can be made in positioning etc.

Thanks to all for the "restrained" answers :applaud: I suspect many would have tempted to ask me what the hell I was thinking, starting to pull apart speakers with this much design, testing and heritage behind them.

Consider me suitably "brought back to earth" ;)

Cheers

'Nutz

Audionutz
10-05-2010, 04:41 PM
Hello Nutz

First off I don't share your experience with my clones. My first thought would also be to look into placement issues. A simple rule of thumb is to have no 2 dimensions the same with respect to a woofers distance from room boundary's. An example would be woofer height 2 ft and distance from back wall 2 ft and so on. The worst case would be all three dimensions the same. Mine are at least 3ft from any room boundary except the floor as far as the woofer is concerned which are about 26" to the center of the Le-14. See if any of the spacings match if they do try moving things around a little and see if it helps.

Could also be where you are seated so try moving your listening position as well or move around the room and see if the hollowness changes as you move around.

Post a picture of how they are positioned if you can.

Rob:)


Thanks Rob,

here are some pics of the room. Size is 16' x 16'. Pitched roof approx 20 feet high. No treatments, other than the heavy woolen theater drapes as seen. Under those are bare stud walls. Carpet over solid concrete floor. Speakers on supplied spikes. Speakers are placed 75" out from rear wall and 67" out from side walls. Listening seat is 47" from the rear wall. Speaker to listening seat 130". 99" between the speakers. All measurements taken to the center of the bass driver, not to cabinet edges.

Hope this all makes sense - if not, please let me know ?

Cheers

Scott

Woofer
10-05-2010, 09:21 PM
Try bringing them in by 6"-12" each, and possibly raise them by about 6".
Also move the 4350's to somewhere else. ;)

Audionutz
10-05-2010, 09:28 PM
Try bringing them in by 6"-12" each, and possibly raise them by about 6".
Also move the 4350's to somewhere else. ;)

Do you mean closer to one another by 6-12" ?

Can do the first two, but short of another dimension, there's nowhere else for the 4350's for now .... :banghead:

Audionutz
10-05-2010, 09:29 PM
Try bringing them in by 6"-12" each, and possibly raise them by about 6".
Also move the 4350's to somewhere else. ;)


Also, tweeters are just above ear level now as they stand ?

Woofer
10-05-2010, 09:37 PM
yes, closer to each other.
the only reason I suggest raising them, is to just check if there's any floor coupling and interaction.

the 4350's might be also be interacting and resonating at the frequencies you're having problems with.
afterall, that's 4 extra 15" speakers in your room just waiting to join in on the 'harmonies'.
at least turn them around just to see if there's any noticeable difference.

Woofer
10-05-2010, 09:40 PM
Also, tweeters are just above ear level now as they stand ?

there's a good reason for raising and tilting boxes, and that's to stop standing waves.
you have to eliminate direct reflection.
just raising the box by 6" and then tilting even a couple of inches can do absolute wonders...

Robh3606
10-06-2010, 05:59 PM
just raising the box by 6" and then tilting even a couple of inches can do absolute wonders...

If they were 4344 I would agree 100% you need to get the 2235 up off the floor. That said you had to keep the 2405/077 at ear level becasue of directivity issues. Unlike the 4344's these were designed as floor standers so the woofers are up high in the cabinet. You could raise them but watch the tweeter level. You don't want them too high or you will be out of the UHF cone in the vertical axis. Take a look at the Stereophile review and see how smooth the lower 15 degrees of the vertical polar measurement is on the system. You obviously want the system height and listening height in the smoothest part of the arc. It could be on axis and above in the top side of the arc or above the tweeter. Check it out so if you do decide to rasie them you don't trade one problem for another.

Rob:)

Woofer
10-06-2010, 06:24 PM
That's why I suggested tilting the boxes slightly too Rob. :o:
'nutz has a problem, so I'm trying to recommend anything that may help resolve it.
Nothing is permanent.
It's all a matter of trial and error, and crossing things off on a list eliminating what is not the culprit gives you something to do on a rainy day. Doesn't hurt to try. ;)
Hell, I'd hang 'em off the roof upside down and turned inside out if I knew it would help! :D

Cheers. :bouncy:

SEAWOLF97
10-06-2010, 06:41 PM
its cheap , easy and quick ....try different speaker wires.

Woofer
10-06-2010, 06:46 PM
its cheap , easy and quick ....try different speaker wires.

Ya know what? That was gonna be my very next suggestion 'wolf..... :applaud:
Those 'iffy' flat things I can see are quite the curiosity.
Try 'normal' wire. It's all oxygen free no matter wot anyone says. If it wasn't, it'd be copper oxide! :p

Robh3606
10-06-2010, 06:50 PM
That's why I suggested tilting the boxes slightly too Rob. :o:


I got that, but which way?? We have a perfectly good polar measurement set in the review we might as well use it. I use tilt in my center channel it wouldn't work as installed without it.


Hell, I'd hang 'em off the roof upside down and turned inside out if I knew it would help! :D


I agree

Rob:)

Woofer
10-06-2010, 06:58 PM
I got that, but which way??

Rob:)

... tilted down, aiming the tweets right between the eyes! (or should that be ears?)

SEAWOLF97
10-06-2010, 07:03 PM
I use tilt in my center channel it wouldn't work as installed without it.Rob:)

I use the JBL CL-505 center (the one that matches L5/7) ..it has a built-in sliding vertical rod with a foot ....on the backside with locking knob ...just for tilting it.

Woofer
10-06-2010, 07:14 PM
I use the JBL CL-505 center (the one that matches L5/7) ..it has a built-in sliding vertical rod with a foot ....on the backside with locking knob ...just for tilting it.

They should start making ALL the boxes with 'drop down' lockable spikes, standard.
One on each corner.
That way you could angle the box any way you need. (As well as help isolate them from the floor - IF need be.)
It's only a matter of time....

Audionutz
10-06-2010, 09:40 PM
its cheap , easy and quick ....try different speaker wires.


Done that at great length (pun intended). The ones in use are the best trade off between colouration and full response.

Audionutz
10-06-2010, 09:50 PM
If they were 4344 I would agree 100% you need to get the 2235 up off the floor. That said you had to keep the 2405/077 at ear level because of directivity issues. Unlike the 4344's these were designed as floor standers so the woofers are up high in the cabinet. You could raise them but watch the tweeter level. You don't want them too high or you will be out of the UHF cone in the vertical axis. Take a look at the Stereophile review and see how smooth the lower 15 degrees of the vertical polar measurement is on the system. You obviously want the system height and listening height in the smoothest part of the arc. It could be on axis and above in the top side of the arc or above the tweeter. Check it out so if you do decide to raise them you don't trade one problem for another.

Rob:)

I'm just inside the 15 Deg sweet spot on the horn actually and it's a noticeable feature.

But, my problem is nothing to do with the horn. As I said, the problem is in the LE14's area of response. Probably about 3-500K. Think low male vocals like later Leonard Cohen, bass guitar notes or double bass. Even some of Patricia Barbers tracks bring it on.

Maybe I haven't made myself clear enough. Its a coloration at that frequency. A noticeable smoothing out and lack of bite on transient edges. It just sounds "wooly" at that point. This is all on tracks I know intimately and have heard on dozens of setups, not just new material.

Thats why the suggestion was made to damp the back of the LE to attenuate at that particular frequency.

I'm also pretty sure its not a standing wave, or reflection issue. I've moved the speakers around enough to recognize that when it happens .... :confused:

Cheers

Scott

Robh3606
10-07-2010, 03:46 AM
But, my problem is nothing to do with the horn. As I said, the problem is in the LE14's area of response. Probably about 3-500K. Think low male vocals like later Leonard Cohen, bass guitar notes or double bass. Even some of Patricia Barbers tracks bring it on.



I understand that. It was suggested to you to try to raise the speakers, I was pointing out that if you did you had to watch out to make sure you staid in the UHF Horns sweet spot.

I can't explain what you are hearing.

Rob:confused:

4313B
10-07-2010, 05:07 AM
I think you're used to listening to 2202's... The LE14 is never going to do the same thing the 2202 does.

Audionutz
10-07-2010, 01:13 PM
I understand that. It was suggested to you to try to raise the speakers, I was pointing out that if you did you had to watch out to make sure you staid in the UHF Horns sweet spot.

I can't explain what you are hearing.

Rob:confused:

OK, thanks :)

Audionutz
10-07-2010, 01:15 PM
I think you're used to listening to 2202's... The LE14 is never going to do the same thing the 2202 does.


That may be a possibility, especially as nobody else with 1400's seems to have experienced the problem ?

Thanks

Scott

Mr. Widget
10-07-2010, 01:59 PM
This morning I played my 1400 Arrays with 3 different amps. Two were solid state and one a pair of vintage monoblock Atmosphere OTL amps. All three are very different designs and had very different sounding low frequencies and midbass.... depending on the room, the type of music and the sound quality one prefers any of the three could be a saviour or a villain.

What are you using for amplification and have you tried something quite different from it also... i.e. not two different push pull triode amps or two MOSFET designs.

That aside, I do agree with the 2202 comments... while I find it lacking in detail and finesse, it has a slam that demands to be noticed.


Widget

4313B
10-07-2010, 02:13 PM
That may be a possibility, especially as nobody else with 1400's seems to have experienced the problem ?:dont-know:

I'd put some test tones through them at the frequencies you find objectionable and see what's going on.

richluvsound
10-07-2010, 02:20 PM
Hi Nutz,

I think Woofer may have a point about the 4350's being that close .... Your exciting the air inside the box .... could I Suggest maybe moving them out of the room just for a listen ... Sorry I aint there to help :D

Just and idea mate !

rich uF

Audionutz
10-07-2010, 04:09 PM
This morning I played my 1400 Arrays with 3 different amps. Two were solid state and one a pair of vintage monoblock Atmosphere OTL amps. All three are very different designs and had very different sounding low frequencies and midbass.... depending on the room, the type of music and the sound quality one prefers any of the three could be a saviour or a villain.

What are you using for amplification and have you tried something quite different from it also... i.e. not two different push pull triode amps or two MOSFET designs.

That aside, I do agree with the 2202 comments... while I find it lacking in detail and finesse, it has a slam that demands to be noticed.


Widget

Thanks Widget,

Currently, a Krell KSA150 is in place. But, I have tried a pair of push pull monos and it was still apparent with them. I also tried a pair of 80 watt OTL monos, but they ran out of puff very quickly - just not enough current for the relatively low sensitivity of the 1400's.

I do have another solid state amp coming in next week, so will give that a try as well.

Cheers

'Nutz

Audionutz
10-07-2010, 04:10 PM
:dont-know:

I'd put some test tones through them at the frequencies you find objectionable and see what's going on.

Now that is something I will definitely try - why didnt I think of that first - duh :banghead:

Cheers

'Nutz

Audionutz
10-07-2010, 04:14 PM
Hi Nutz,

I think Woofer may have a point about the 4350's being that close .... Your exciting the air inside the box .... could I Suggest maybe moving them out of the room just for a listen ... Sorry I aint there to help :D

Just and idea mate !

rich uF


When it stops raining here, I think I'll give that a try too and wheel them outside for a listen.

Thanks again to all for your suggestions !

Cheers

Scott

Woofer
10-08-2010, 02:57 AM
One last suggestion.....
Go and borrow a Klark Teknik DN360 from you know who.
I know he won't be using it for a while. Then you can fiddle about to your hearts content looking for the culprit frequency/ies.
If that solves the problem, then maybe you should look at alternatives to just room placement and treatment.
If you can't get a hold of it, tell me, and I'll send you my Crown EQ2. I just know it will do the job.
Or, go and buy yourself a DBX PA thingie, and you can do it all in the digital domain, if you don't want to try analogue.
I know, you want the speakers to be able to do it themselves, but, there are too many variables.
Also, you're comparing the 1400's to the 4350's which you've become very accustomed to. BIG difference and absolutely no comparison.
What you may hear in one, you might not hear in the other and vice versa.
You're gonna end up chasing your own tail into oblivion, if you don't make sacrifices.
One shoe does not fit all! If you want the shoe to fit everything, invest in a GEQ.
:p

Audionutz
10-08-2010, 12:57 PM
One last suggestion.....
Go and borrow a Klark Teknik DN360 from you know who.
I know he won't be using it for a while. Then you can fiddle about to your hearts content looking for the culprit frequency/ies.
If that solves the problem, then maybe you should look at alternatives to just room placement and treatment.
If you can't get a hold of it, tell me, and I'll send you my Crown EQ2. I just know it will do the job.
Or, go and buy yourself a DBX PA thingie, and you can do it all in the digital domain, if you don't want to try analogue.
I know, you want the speakers to be able to do it themselves, but, there are too many variables.
Also, you're comparing the 1400's to the 4350's which you've become very accustomed to. BIG difference and absolutely no comparison.
What you may hear in one, you might not hear in the other and vice versa.
You're gonna end up chasing your own tail into oblivion, if you don't make sacrifices.
One shoe does not fit all! If you want the shoe to fit everything, invest in a GEQ.
:p


Ta, but no thanks ... :)

Several reasons - the EQ is something I have tried and found that although it may improve a culprit frequency, the trade off with loss of clarity and detail etc across the rest of the range is not worth it.

Why not make the speakers do it themselves ? Surely thats the "cleanest" solution - esp if its only a matter of placement/damping/cables/amp changes ? Thats what us "Audionutz" live for remember. I envisage hours of enjoyable fiddling and listening to come :applaud:

As for comparisons to the 4350's, maybe. But the 1400's have been heard by several people now who never heard the 4350's running, and they noticed what I'm attempting to describe here ?

As I said before, this is a very small part of the overall sound response on these speakers. If it turns out to be part of their character and cant be addressed, I wont be unhappy.

They are still amongst the best I have heard and still put a big grin on my face when called to :bouncy:

Cheers

Scott

tom1040
10-08-2010, 01:05 PM
Perhaps the addition of a 1500 Array sub? Perhaps?;)

Audionutz
10-08-2010, 04:17 PM
Perhaps the addition of a 1500 Array sub? Perhaps?;)

Might not solve the problem - but I wouldn't say no if one was offered :D

Woofer
10-08-2010, 05:55 PM
Here's a point that hasn't been brought up yet.
When was the last time you had the battery in your Hearing Aid replaced? :p

Audionutz
10-08-2010, 06:51 PM
Here's a point that hasn't been brought up yet.
When was the last time you had the battery in your Hearing Aid replaced? :p


Pardon ?

Woofer
10-08-2010, 07:10 PM
Maybe you're hearing the interaction between the dustcap and cone where they join.
There's some strange stuff happening there at times, and some people can hear it.
Maybe you're one of them! It was something I became aware of when I had some Turbosound® speakers in the mid 80's. They had a rather large Phase Plug to address the issue.
It would also be interesting to hear if there is a difference between a 'normally' orientated dustcap and an 'inverted' one.
Of course you can't do that to a new pair of speaks, but one day maybe someone might try it.

Zilch
10-08-2010, 07:25 PM
Short the inputs of the 4350s.... :yes:

Audionutz
10-08-2010, 07:50 PM
Short the inputs of the 4350s.... :yes:


Done quite a while ago.

Cheers

'Nutz

JBLAddict
10-29-2010, 05:17 PM
they're for sale on ebay :(

Robh3606
10-29-2010, 05:38 PM
they're for sale on ebay :(


Well the important thing is he has his 4350's so he got to give it a go and made the right personal decision about what he really wanted from his speakers.

Rob:)

Audionutz
10-29-2010, 06:58 PM
Well the important thing is he has his 4350's so he got to give it a go and made the right personal decision about what he really wanted from his speakers.

Rob:)


Correct. And believe me, I tried real hard to make them work for me. I suspect a better man in a different room will find them absolutely superb

Cheers

'Nutz

Woofer
10-29-2010, 07:28 PM
Correct. And believe me, I tried real hard to make them work for me. I suspect a better man in a different room will find them absolutely superb

Cheers

'Nutz

Not necessarily.
I'm a better man, ;) and I got a different room, and I just know I wouldn't like them either.... :p
:bouncy:

Titanium Dome
10-29-2010, 09:07 PM
From what I can tell, you don't like anything. :p

Maybe you're too good a man?




As a contrast, I tend to like everything. This make me happier but much less than a good, better, or best man. I believe I'm the LCM of JBL fans on the site. :D

Audionutz
10-29-2010, 09:15 PM
From what I can tell, you don't like anything. :p

Maybe you're too good a man?




As a contrast, I tend to like everything. This make me happier but much less than a good, better, or best man. I believe I'm the LCM of JBL fans on the site. :D

No, not at all. There are many things I like. Paying a lot of money for something with flawed design and poor construction is not among them though !

Apart from the sound, there are a few more things about the 1400 I'd take issue with, just not publicly.

Cheers

'Nutz

Titanium Dome
10-29-2010, 09:22 PM
No, not at all. There are many things I like. Paying a lot of money for something with flawed design and poor construction is not among them though !

Apart from the sound, there are a few more things about the 1400 I'd take issue with, just not publicly.

Cheers

'Nutz

Actually, I was teasing Woofer, not you. :)

You did the right thing. You've got to be happy.

Audionutz
10-29-2010, 09:29 PM
Actually, I was teasing Woofer, not you. :)

You did the right thing. You've got to be happy.


Thanks Titaniaum, I'm a bit "Gun-shy" at present .......:D

Woofer
10-29-2010, 09:36 PM
From what I can tell, you don't like anything. :p

Maybe you're too good a man?

As a contrast, I tend to like everything. This make me happier but much less than a good, better, or best man. I believe I'm the LCM of JBL fans on the site. :D

Yes you're absolutely right 'Dome. I don't like anything..... :crying:
.... but I'm taking meds to change that.

Oh, and BTW, did you know that 'nutz is one of my best friends, and I don't like him either! :o: (yes, of course I'm just kidding!!!)
..... and I really don't like JBL's, yet I find my place so full of them, that the only room I have spare is the square metre of floorspace that my chair occupies.

I even hate myself so much, (enough for everyone), that I do it just so others don't have to waste their time hating me.... :(

But, I guess that's just me.....
(I promise to change my ways soon) :blink:

Just razzin' ya 'Dome. :p
(... actually that comment I made earlier was just a joking dig at 'nutz, but then you weren't to know that. heh heh heh...)

Cheers all. :bouncy: