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saeman
09-25-2010, 07:43 AM
Just saw a sales flyer for the new release of the 4365 monitor. Thought I'd pass it on. I guess JBL is still in the market. Price is near $10K per pair.

Valentin
09-27-2010, 11:15 AM
10k

I really hope sow :)

bubbleboy76
04-26-2013, 11:23 PM
This speaker seems to be the root cause of all problems in the world, if to beleive the thread that had to be closed :)
Let's continue here for us interested in the 4365. I am still waiting on my pair to arrive.

martin_wu99
04-27-2013, 06:06 AM
This speaker seems to be the root cause of all problems in the world, if to beleive the thread that had to be closed :)
Let's continue here for us interested in the 4365. I am still waiting on my pair to arrive.
They ruined my 4365 post:banghead:

4313B
04-27-2013, 06:34 AM
They ruined my 4365 post:banghead:Just buy a pair already and then post about them.

martin_wu99
04-27-2013, 08:02 AM
Just buy a pair already and then post about them.
I believed your words and turn to S4700:(

SEAWOLF97
04-27-2013, 10:02 AM
Just buy a pair already and then post about them.

where is that thumbs UP button ? :dont-know:

bubbleboy76
04-27-2013, 10:32 AM
Here we go again....
Please, do not mess up this thread as well. Let's stick to 4365 related discussion here.

hjames
04-27-2013, 01:21 PM
Here we go again....
Please, do not mess up this thread as well. Let's stick to 4365 related discussion here.

Love the way they look - it'd really be tempting if I could hear a pair somewhere in the US -
that $10k price isn't bad for a new pair of studio monitors!

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=47700&stc=1&d=1285425794

grumpy
04-27-2013, 01:26 PM
I thought list price was just over $10k USD ... each. :dont-know:

hjames
04-27-2013, 03:30 PM
I thought list price was just over $10k USD ... each. :dont-know:

Ouch!! $20k pair? - That does change things a bit ...

macaroonie
04-27-2013, 04:32 PM
M2 gets better looking every day or a VTX and saw it in half. Oh you also get a spare D2 if youdo this. :crying:

Odd
04-28-2013, 07:47 AM
4365 for sale in Norway. USD 15 000.00 a pair.
Link (http://www.finn.no/finn/torget/tilsalgs/annonse?finnkode=41246843&searchQuery=jbl)
Not mine.

4313B
04-28-2013, 08:59 AM
Those trim pots are so cute, plus or minus 0.5 dB :p

Dave_72
04-30-2013, 07:04 PM
They ruined my 4365 post:banghead:

And whose fault was that? Yours, my friend.

Dave_72
04-30-2013, 07:04 PM
This speaker seems to be the root cause of all problems in the world, if to beleive the thread that had to be closed :)
Let's continue here for us interested in the 4365. I am still waiting on my pair to arrive.

Cool, sounds good. Let us know how they are! :D

SEAWOLF97
04-30-2013, 07:12 PM
Those trim pots are so cute, plus or minus 0.5 dB :p

too fine for me. I can only hear the diff of plus or minus 0.75 dB ;)

mikebake
05-01-2013, 06:28 AM
As I probably said elsewhere, to me, this is what a speaker should look like. I was probably influenced by the Altec 19.

Mr. Widget
05-01-2013, 08:27 AM
As I probably said elsewhere, to me, this is what a speaker should look like. I was probably influenced by the Altec 19.Ya think? To me the main design statement of the Model 19 is the two box design... which I've always liked. I thought the Model 19 was derivative of the Belle Klipsch... which I've always had a soft spot for as well.

As for the 4365, I have a bias against the entire line of "monitor styled" consumer speakers. Not sure why, I've appreciated the reto movement in auto design, but for the JBLs they just seem like posers. I realize I am being overly harsh on them, but they just don't float my boat.


Widget

4313B
05-01-2013, 09:29 AM
Ya think? To me the main design statement of the Model 19 is the two box design... which I've always liked. I thought the Model 19 was derivative of the Belle Klipsch... which I've always had a soft spot for as well.Agreed.

As for the 4365, I have a bias against the entire line of "monitor styled" consumer speakers. Not sure why, I've appreciated the reto movement in auto design, but for the JBLs they just seem like posers. I realize I am being overly harsh on them, but they just don't float my boat.They are posers in the sense that Consumer doesn't hold a candle to Pro. I don't even think anyone actually manages Consumer, I think it's been on auto-pilot for about ten or twelve years. Hopefully it will hit an iceberg sooner rather than later and sink into fifteen thousand feet of frigid water.

The components themselves though are still quite desirable.

grumpy
05-01-2013, 10:22 AM
I finally received two pair of 1501Fe's

Well, a hearty *whew* and congrats to that at least...

martin_wu99
05-04-2013, 03:20 AM
And whose fault was that? Yours, my friend.
Oh,Dave,my good friend,it is not my fault,it is them who talk political topic first.

Dave_72
05-04-2013, 05:40 PM
Oh,Dave,my good friend,it is not my fault,it is them who talk political topic first.

Sure it is. You've picked fights with everyone on this board including me. Why you're not banned yet, I dunno.

martin_wu99
05-20-2013, 05:12 AM
Sure it is. You've picked fights with everyone on this board including me. Why you're not banned yet, I dunno.
Dave,here are some s4700 pictures that are taken in HONG KONG HIFI SHOWROOM for your reference;)

caladois
05-21-2013, 09:58 AM
Thanks for sharing

martin_wu99
05-21-2013, 10:05 AM
Thanks for sharing
My pleasure,hope helpful for S4700 user:D

Dave_72
05-29-2013, 01:23 AM
My pleasure,hope helpful for S4700 user:D

Thank you. Nice photos! :)

martin_wu99
05-29-2013, 02:25 AM
Thank you. Nice photos! :)
Come back again?where do you head for?:D

Dave_72
05-29-2013, 12:52 PM
Come back again?where do you head for?:D

Hmm? :confused:

bubbleboy76
05-29-2013, 02:26 PM
Two absurdely large packages just entered my livingroom.

martin_wu99
05-29-2013, 11:53 PM
Hmm? :confused:
Just mean i haven't seen you for some time,what are you doing now?:D

Mctwins
05-30-2013, 07:51 AM
Two absurdely large packages just entered my livingroom.

Yeah!!! :bouncy::applaud: Pictures please!

martin_wu99
05-30-2013, 10:03 PM
Thank you. Nice photos! :)
Dave,i have a idea,you can try CROWN MA5000 with your S4700.because s4700 have the same woofer like M2,and recommdend AMP for M2 is MA5000:applaud:

martin_wu99
05-30-2013, 10:16 PM
Thank you. Nice photos! :)
If you really like PASS,try this new one,Xs300 big improvement

Mctwins
05-31-2013, 04:35 AM
Dave,i have a idea,you can try CROWN MA5000 with your S4700.because s4700 have the same woofer like M2,and recommdend AMP for M2 is MA5000:applaud:

I don't think one can use MAi5000HD amp to run with S4700. Maybe one can, if you remove the crossover in the bass unit. In the manual it says 300Watts RMS but no info how much power in bi-amp mode. In the M2 there is no crossover.

The limit how much power one can use in the S4700 is due to the crossover. I think the crossover will destroy first then the transducer if MAi5000HD is used.

That's how I see it.

martin_wu99
05-31-2013, 06:43 AM
I don't think one can use MAi5000HD amp to run with S4700. Maybe one can, if you remove the crossover in the bass unit. In the manual it says 300Watts RMS but no info how much power in bi-amp mode. In the M2 there is no crossover.

The limit how much power one can use in the S4700 is due to the crossover. I think the crossover will destroy first then the transducer if MAi5000HD is used.

That's how I see it.
Don't worry,the crossover is not so fragile,but it is better to go active crossover with S4700,
Can s4700 go active?

Mctwins
05-31-2013, 12:39 PM
Don't worry,the crossover is not so fragile,but it is better to go active crossover with S4700,
Can s4700 go active?

Off course you can go active and bi-amp the S4700.

About the MAi5000HD on can use the LevelMax limiter.

Some readings.....

http://www.crownaudio.com/media/storagebk/pdf/support/ITech HD LevelMax Limiter Readme File.pdf

Dave_72
06-02-2013, 03:37 PM
If you really like PASS,try this new one,Xs300 big improvement

Sure, I would like to have that! I don't have the money to get it! :D

Dave_72
06-02-2013, 03:39 PM
Just mean i haven't seen you for some time,what are you doing now?:D

Oh, I'm around. I haven't been on the net too much lately.

Dave_72
06-02-2013, 03:39 PM
Dave,i have a idea,you can try CROWN MA5000 with your S4700.because s4700 have the same woofer like M2,and recommdend AMP for M2 is MA5000:applaud:

Maybe...thanks for the suggestion.

Dave_72
06-02-2013, 03:40 PM
Two absurdely large packages just entered my livingroom.

You got your 4365s? :cool:

Mostlydiy
06-02-2013, 10:42 PM
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by bubbleboy76 http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=348566#post348566)
Two absurdely large packages just entered my livingroom.


bubbleboy, wakie wakie :) post us some pics

hjames
06-03-2013, 03:01 AM
Two absurdely large packages just entered my livingroom.

Its been simply DAYS since your last posts and your friends all want to know if the absurdly large boxes fell and trapped your leg, or if you got them open and found other delights?

Pictures would answer all our questions, thanks!

martin_wu99
06-03-2013, 03:22 AM
Its been simply DAYS since your last posts and your friends all want to know if the absurdly large boxes fell and trapped your leg, or if you got them open and found other delights?

Pictures would answer all our questions, thanks!
No pics,no truth:Dmaybe some big secrets in the absurdly large boxes :applaud:

bubbleboy76
06-03-2013, 11:42 AM
Come on guys, patience is a virtue!

I have been away from home this weekend. Will post some pics later this week.

The sound has changed very much from friday to sunday.

bubbleboy76
06-03-2013, 01:57 PM
Santa came early this year.

JeffW
06-03-2013, 02:38 PM
Santa came early this year.

JBL's cabinets sure aren't what they used to be ;)

Mostlydiy
06-03-2013, 11:21 PM
JBL's cabinets sure aren't what they used to be ;)

I do miss the blue JBL monitor colour, otherwise they look kind of like the 4345 which is fine by me :)

/Mostly

Dave_72
06-04-2013, 12:02 AM
Come on guys, patience is a virtue!

I have been away from home this weekend. Will post some pics later this week.

The sound has changed very much from friday to sunday.

Cool, sounds good. Oh yes, it will. Just wait until a month from now. You'll be in audio heaven!

Dave_72
06-04-2013, 12:03 AM
Santa came early this year.

Nice. :coolness:

bubbleboy76
06-04-2013, 02:31 AM
Cool, sounds good. Oh yes, it will. Just wait until a month from now. You'll be in audio heaven!

Can you describe the changes you experienced?

My 4365 sounded thin in all registers out of the box. And also veiled to some degree.

But now it is starting to sound good!

I played a 16hz pink noise tone all night on high volume, can not hear it anyway!

bubbleboy76
06-04-2013, 02:36 AM
I have plans to make my 4365 white using plastic film, and white grille cloth.
I have done it to speakers before with good result. Makes then dissapear a bit on the white walls.
Pictures will come when it is done.

bubbleboy76
06-04-2013, 02:44 AM
Behind the green blanket stands my 4429 center. It sounds crazy good!

I will make a frame with white speaker grille cloth in front of it. Fastened with magnets on the bench.

Mctwins
06-04-2013, 02:47 AM
I played a 16hz pink noise tone all night on high volume, can not hear it anyway!

What are you doing:confused:

Mctwins
06-04-2013, 02:49 AM
I have plans to make my 4365 white using plastic film, and white grille cloth.
I have done it to speakers before with good result. Makes then dissapear a bit on the white walls.
Pictures will come when it is done.

Please don't destroy the speakers and it will not sound any better. Just leave them as it is.

bubbleboy76
06-04-2013, 03:33 AM
What are you doing:confused:

Breaking it in. What is your concern?

I repeatedly played 1 minute noise, 1 minute digital silence, so there should be no probem with overheating or something like that.

bubbleboy76
06-04-2013, 03:37 AM
Please don't destroy the speakers and it will not sound any better. Just leave them as it is.

Destroy? Everything is 100% reversible.

Mctwins
06-04-2013, 03:39 AM
Breaking it in. What is your concern?

I repeatedly played 1 minute noise, 1 minute digital silence, so there should be no probem with overheating or something like that.

If you would use a pink noise with 20Hz-20kHz with low volume, this is more resonable than only using 16Hz. You are beyond the speaker specs.

Just play some music thru the speakers.

bubbleboy76
06-04-2013, 04:18 AM
If you would use a pink noise with 20Hz-20kHz with low volume, this is more resonable than only using 16Hz. You are beyond the speaker specs.

Just play some music thru the speakers.

I play music the whole day on normal "background"" listening level. Then tonight I played a combination of 25hz sinus, 20hz sinus and 16 hz pink noise with digital silence in between. The volume was slightly higher than normal listening level.

Dave_72
06-04-2013, 08:55 AM
Can you describe the changes you experienced?

My 4365 sounded thin in all registers out of the box. And also veiled to some degree.

But now it is starting to sound good!

I played a 16hz pink noise tone all night on high volume, can not hear it anyway!

Yes, the S4700s also sounded both thin and veiled at the same time new out of the box. A bit disappointing to me at the time.

What happens is that the midrange and treble opens up to a large degree, while the bass becomes full and powerful.

So, the sound becomes more dynamic and transparent.

It took a long time to break these in. They're now 6 months old. I'd say they're still breaking in, but I might be wrong on that.

4313B
06-04-2013, 09:09 AM
They are mechanical devices.

At the other end of the bell curve they will sound awful too. :rotfl:

Fortunately JBL loudspeakers are built like a fine musical instrument, and all that garbage :blah: :blah: :blah:, so you'll be long gone when they reach the end of their life cycle. Your great grandchildren will say "What in hell's half acre did great grandpa see in these things!" :screwy:

BMWCCA
06-04-2013, 09:29 AM
Pictures will come when it is done.
How about some pictures as they are now, you know, actually out of the box! :banghead:

bubbleboy76
06-04-2013, 10:03 AM
Because you are whineing like babies, you get this state-of-the-art iPhone pic in severe backlight.

59118

Mostlydiy
06-04-2013, 10:09 AM
nice view :)

4313B
06-04-2013, 10:14 AM
Isn't there supposed to be like ten feet of snow and ABBA in the background there?

bubbleboy76
06-04-2013, 11:16 AM
Isn't there supposed to be like ten feet of snow and ABBA in the background there?

Thank god (and the US?) for global warming.

ABBA is out on the balcony.

bubbleboy76
06-04-2013, 12:39 PM
Some more pics.

bubbleboy76
06-04-2013, 12:42 PM
DIY bridged Hypex nCore monoblocks attached with velcro on the backside of the speakers.

Preamp/processor/dac is the Oppo BDP-105.

To come are very short DIY speaker-cables in pure silver, directly wired without connectors.

4313B
06-04-2013, 12:49 PM
Thank god (and the US?) for global warming.In any case, that view sure looks nice! :yes:

The loudspeakers look pretty neato too!

Mostlydiy
06-04-2013, 11:34 PM
Behind the green blanket stands my 4429 center. It sounds crazy good!

I will make a frame with white speaker grille cloth in front of it. Fastened with magnets on the bench.

If you are going to use this setup for HT, what will be the speakers for the surround channels and what sub will you use?

/Mostly

bubbleboy76
06-05-2013, 12:42 AM
If you are going to use this setup for HT, what will be the speakers for the surround channels and what sub will you use?

/Mostly

No sub, and no surrounds to begin with. I went all-in on the front-speakers.

My long-term plan is to buy a house with a dedicated HT-room, and the dream is then to have another 4365 as center (behind the screen), and use 4429:s as surrounds.

Mostlydiy
06-05-2013, 01:32 AM
My long-term plan is to buy a house with a dedicated HT-room, and the dream is then to have another 4365 as center (behind the screen), and use 4429:s as surrounds.

Im one step ahead of you :) just bought a house with a nice room at about 25m2 in the basement. Planning on a real overkill horn HT with all JBL components. I cant move in until after this summer thought and all of the basement is demolished because of water damage so I will have a few things to take care of before I can start building the HT, but the planning is going on in my head 24/7.

Maybe your future surround channels?

http://www.hifimagasinet.com/annonsDetalj.asp?annonsID=81010

/Mostly

bubbleboy76
06-05-2013, 03:50 AM
Im one step ahead of you :) just bought a house with a nice room at about 25m2 in the basement. Planning on a real overkill horn HT with all JBL components. I cant move in until after this summer thought and all of the basement is demolished because of water damage so I will have a few things to take care of before I can start building the HT, but the planning is going on in my head 24/7.

Maybe your future surround channels?

http://www.hifimagasinet.com/annonsDetalj.asp?annonsID=81010

/Mostly

Nice. Yeah, I have seen thoose for sale.
Check out what Baldrick is selling on hifisentralen.no. Those SUB1500-elements are hard to beat in my experience.

Mostlydiy
06-05-2013, 04:26 AM
Those SUB1500-elements are hard to beat in my experience

I have a few W1500H that I´ll probably be using but Im not sure yet, have some other stuff aswell. The subs and the 80Hz-800Hz region in the surrounds is the only things that wont be hornloaded. Like I said, a bit overkill but loads of fun :)

/Mostly

bubbleboy76
06-05-2013, 07:32 AM
I have a few W1500H that I´ll probably be using but Im not sure yet, have some other stuff aswell. The subs and the 80Hz-800Hz region in the surrounds is the only things that wont be hornloaded. Like I said, a bit overkill but loads of fun :)

/Mostly

I might be interested if you don't need those w1500h in the future.
Where do you live? I would like to see this project when it starts playing!

Mostlydiy
06-05-2013, 01:43 PM
El Estocolmo!

Im going to build 8 closed cabinets with W1500H to "hopefully" complete my horn system under 100Hz. If I don´t like it I will build some hornloaded 2227 and if I like that, I will have some W1500H lying around.

/Mostly

bubbleboy76
06-06-2013, 11:20 AM
El Estocolmo!

Im going to build 8 closed cabinets with W1500H to "hopefully" complete my horn system under 100Hz. If I don´t like it I will build some hornloaded 2227 and if I like that, I will have some W1500H lying around.

/Mostly

Sounds crazy, in a good way :)

Valentin
06-10-2013, 04:51 PM
El Estocolmo!

Im going to build 8 closed cabinets with W1500H to "hopefully" complete my horn system under 100Hz. If I don´t like it I will build some hornloaded 2227 and if I like that, I will have some W1500H lying around.

/MostlyThats a lot of horse power

bubbleboy76
06-14-2013, 01:39 AM
The 4429-center is now hidden behind white speaker-cloth.

The signalcables will be hidden, do not worry about that.

bubbleboy76
06-14-2013, 02:01 AM
I will test with one more layer of cloth (to make it look white), and see how much it degrades the sound. The 4429 has tone control, so maybe I can higher the HF a bit to compensate, like they do in cinemas.

Dave_72
06-18-2013, 04:20 PM
The 4429-center is now hidden behind white speaker-cloth.

The signalcables will be hidden, do not worry about that.

Looks good, man! :D

bubbleboy76
10-19-2013, 03:36 AM
Had my 4365s for 3 months now. Just last week the bass really really came alive. Now they are sounding freaking amazing, I must say. Very happy with them, I think they are here for life (I have said that before though...). The sound is so natural and "live".
To me, the bass is better now with the 4365s, than with single subs of TiK and 1500 array that I have had before. That is not a bad company to beat!
You guys who do not beleive in long breakin-time for this Kind of JBL-speakers, sorry you are just plain wrong. They sounded like a laptop out-of-the-box :) They seem to need to play REALLY loud to loosen up, that is what I did last week.
Now, I have 5 new blu-ray concerts to enjoy this weekend, love it! It is like being there.

Dave_72
10-19-2013, 04:37 AM
Had my 4365s for 3 months now. Just last week the bass really really came alive. Now they are sounding freaking amazing, I must say. Very happy with them, I think they are here for life (I have said that before though...). The sound is so natural and "live".
To me, the bass is better now with the 4365s, than with single subs of TiK and 1500 array that I have had before. That is not a bad company to beat!
You guys who do not beleive in long breakin-time for this Kind of JBL-speakers, sorry you are just plain wrong. They sounded like a laptop out-of-the-box :) They seem to need to play REALLY loud to loosen up, that is what I did last week.
Now, I have 5 new blu-ray concerts to enjoy this weekend, love it! It is like being there.

Cool! I believe the break in time too. I'm having the same experience with the S4700s. They sounded terrible to me at first as well. My complaints about them are all over the internet! lol. Anyway, after about 10 months of constant playing, it's finally beginning to sound good.

caladois
10-19-2013, 04:56 AM
How do you drive the 4365 ?MF, tubes ...Lucky man

bubbleboy76
10-19-2013, 05:23 AM
How do you drive the 4365 ?MF, tubes ...Lucky man

Oppo BDP-105 source/preamp
Dodd Balanced Tube buffer
5m cheap XLR-cables
Hypex nCore bridged class-D monoblocks (1,2Kw in 4ohm)
20cm cheap speaker cables, thick copper.
JBL 4365 fronts
JBL 4429 center

Will experient with other cables later on, just for the fun of it.

Dave_72
10-19-2013, 06:02 AM
Oppo BDP-105 source/preamp
Dodd Balanced Tube buffer
5m cheap XLR-cables
Hypex nCore bridged class-D monoblocks (1,2Kw in 4ohm)
20cm cheap speaker cables, thick copper.
JBL 4365 fronts
JBL 4429 center

Will experient with other cables later on, just for the fun of it.

Nice system, I recommend Neotech cables.

martin_wu99
10-19-2013, 08:09 PM
Had my 4365s for 3 months now. Just last week the bass really really came alive. Now they are sounding freaking amazing, I must say. Very happy with them, I think they are here for life (I have said that before though...). The sound is so natural and "live".
To me, the bass is better now with the 4365s, than with single subs of TiK and 1500 array that I have had before. That is not a bad company to beat!
You guys who do not beleive in long breakin-time for this Kind of JBL-speakers, sorry you are just plain wrong. They sounded like a laptop out-of-the-box :) They seem to need to play REALLY loud to loosen up, that is what I did last week.
Now, I have 5 new blu-ray concerts to enjoy this weekend, love it! It is like being there.
Congratulation:applaud:you still need lots of time to run in your 4365,at least half year:D

Dave_72
10-19-2013, 11:18 PM
at least half year:D

I agree...

martin_wu99
10-29-2013, 02:26 AM
I agree...
Comparing 4365 with 4700,an article in Stereo Sound

bubbleboy76
10-29-2013, 04:16 AM
Comparing 4365 with 4700,an article in Stereo Sound

Can you summarize what it says?

Dave_72
10-29-2013, 03:42 PM
Can you summarize what it says?

Good idea!

Dave_72
10-29-2013, 03:43 PM
Comparing 4365 with 4700,an article in Stereo Sound

Nice! Thanks! :applaud:

bubbleboy76
11-03-2013, 01:20 PM
Martin, please! Help us, translate!

Dave_72
11-03-2013, 06:57 PM
Martin, please! Help us, translate!

Yeah martin, quit fooling around! :D

martin_wu99
11-05-2013, 10:27 AM
Martin, please! Help us, translate!
You know my english is poor:crying:

spkrman57
11-05-2013, 05:41 PM
I don't have a 2216Nd, but I do have a 1501Fe and can say it's a very capable driver.

Nd is the future and the 2216Nd will be the next generation of drivers, but for this old fossil I like the heavy cast frame ceramic driver!

I think with what is available that everyone will be happy. DSP will perform the necessary corrections for the future.

Ron

martin_wu99
11-06-2013, 07:47 AM
Yeah martin, quit fooling around! :D
Who is fooling aeound?:o:
I'm giving you information:D

4313B
11-06-2013, 08:40 AM
What issue is this? Allegedly they are all available via download in multiple languages.

Dave_72
11-06-2013, 05:41 PM
Who is fooling aeound?:o:
I'm giving you information:D

Just kidding! :D

martin_wu99
11-18-2013, 04:23 AM
Martin, please! Help us, translate!
The editor of STEREO SOUND said, he compared S4700 with 4365 in same room with same gear:Accuphase C3800+P6100 or TAD MA2500 and TECHNICAL BRAIN TBC-Zero/EX+TBP-Zero/EX
Two systems are same design,they are both extensive two way systems,but the fineness,stability and the headroom of the sound are different,4365 is very like S9900,with 4' horn characteristic,if you like 4' horn ,you will not miss him.it is worth 1.7 times than S4700,consider S9900 is 2.3 times than 4365,the 4365 has little different with S9900.
In one word,4365 and S4700 are not in the same level.he will chose 4365.
Not like 4313B said,S4700 is better than 4365:crying::D

bubbleboy76
11-18-2013, 06:04 AM
Thank you very much Martin!

hjames
11-18-2013, 06:11 AM
Would that be Japanese magazine Stereo Sound? - http://www.stereosound.co.jp/ (http://http://www.stereosound.co.jp/‎)‎

We already know that the new 43xx monitors for sale in Asian countries are voiced for the Japanese market,
which have a different desire for low low bass than the original 43xx series produced.

Saying that a Japanese magazine prefers one speaker over another may not equate for American tastes in sound.

No flames meant. Its just a statement that different markets treasure different kinds of sound.




The editor of STEREO SOUND said, he compared S4700 with 4365 in same room with same gear:Accuphase C3800+P6100 or TAD MA2500 and TECHNICAL BRAIN TBC-Zero/EX+TBP-Zero/EX
Two systems are same design,they are both extensive two way systems,but the fineness,stability and the headroom of the sound are different,4365 is very like S9900,with 4' horn characteristic,if you like 4' horn ,you will not miss him.it is worth 1.7 times than S4700,consider S9900 is 2.3 times than 4365,the 4365 has little different with S9900.
In one word,4365 and S4700 are not in the same level.he will chose 4365.
Not like 4313B said,S4700 is better than 4365:crying::D

4313B
11-18-2013, 08:41 AM
In one word,4365 and S4700 are not in the same level.he will chose 4365.
Not like 4313B said,S4700 is better than 4365:crying::DI didn't say. The designer of both systems did. Despite the fact that the 4365 has the better components the S4700 is the preferred system over here.

And Heather got it right above, I just read her post.

Regardless, both systems have been so thoroughly marginalized by the M2 that they just don't matter anymore. It could have been beneficial for both the 4365 and S4700 if the M2 had been delayed a few more years.

The K2-S9800 and K2-S9900, wonderful as they are, really aren't my personal cup of tea either. I much prefer the 1200 Array, 1400 Array and Everest II.

Mostlydiy
11-18-2013, 09:03 AM
Regardless, both systems have been so thoroughly marginalized by the M2 that they just don't matter anymore. It could have been beneficial for both the 4365 and S4700 if the M2 had been delayed a few more years.

That brings a question to mind. What makes the M2 so good compared to the s4700? Is it the horn or the D2 driver? We all know they use the same bass driver. I presume you would say the DSP. I know there are threads here suggesting using DSP for the different monitors aswell. Would there be another matter as to "what speaker is the best" if they all had use of a DSP?

/Mostly

martin_wu99
11-19-2013, 01:24 AM
Thank you very much Martin!
You are wellcome,bubbleboy:D

martin_wu99
11-19-2013, 02:08 AM
Would that be Japanese magazine Stereo Sound? - http://www.stereosound.co.jp/ (http://http://www.stereosound.co.jp/‎)‎

We already know that the new 43xx monitors for sale in Asian countries are voiced for the Japanese market,
which have a different desire for low low bass than the original 43xx series produced.

Saying that a Japanese magazine prefers one speaker over another may not equate for American tastes in sound.

No flames meant. Its just a statement that different markets treasure different kinds of sound.
Yes,after reading so many Chinese/Taiwanese/Hongkong hifi magazines,i only read <STEREO SOUND> now,
it is objective and rich information.
Although 4365 is for Asian market,but JBL sound standard is just the same,isn't it?:crying:
I don't think 4365 has low low bass.the magazine only said 4365 is much better than S4700:blink:

4313B
11-19-2013, 02:19 AM
the magazine only said 4365 is much better than S4700:blink:Yep. That blue baffle gets them every time. ;)
That brings a question to mind. What makes the M2 so good compared to the s4700? Is it the horn or the D2 driver? We all know they use the same bass driver. I presume you would say the DSP. I know there are threads here suggesting using DSP for the different monitors aswell. Would there be another matter as to "what speaker is the best" if they all had use of a DSP?At this point, it's all in the filters, passive or active.

martin_wu99
11-19-2013, 02:31 AM
I didn't say. The designer of both systems did. Despite the fact that the 4365 has the better components the S4700 is the preferred system over here.

And Heather got it right above, I just read her post.

Regardless, both systems have been so thoroughly marginalized by the M2 that they just don't matter anymore. It could have been beneficial for both the 4365 and S4700 if the M2 had been delayed a few more years.

The K2-S9800 and K2-S9900, wonderful as they are, really aren't my personal cup of tea either. I much prefer the 1200 Array, 1400 Array and Everest II.
I knew that you told that G.T had said that.but why did he say that is beyond many people ken,because 4365 has much better components and is much more expensive than S4700 and carefully designed with the same designer:crying:

we all know that M2 is game changer and ender,but it is too expensive
Seems you like the appearance of novel of JBL,such as ARRAY,M2:D

Dave_72
11-19-2013, 07:13 PM
You are wellcome,bubbleboy:D

Yes, thank you martin.

Dave_72
11-19-2013, 07:18 PM
I didn't say. The designer of both systems did. Despite the fact that the 4365 has the better components the S4700 is the preferred system over here.

And Heather got it right above, I just read her post.

Regardless, both systems have been so thoroughly marginalized by the M2 that they just don't matter anymore. It could have been beneficial for both the 4365 and S4700 if the M2 had been delayed a few more years.

The K2-S9800 and K2-S9900, wonderful as they are, really aren't my personal cup of tea either. I much prefer the 1200 Array, 1400 Array and Everest II.

I'm beginning to think the S4700 is the red headed stepchild of JBL Synthesis...I guess it sucks all the way around. Just lovely, really. :crying: :(

martin_wu99
11-19-2013, 11:02 PM
I'm beginning to think the S4700 is the red headed stepchild of JBL Synthesis...I guess it sucks all the way around. Just lovely, really. :crying: :(
Welcome you back,Dave,where are you fooling around?:D

4313B
11-20-2013, 05:58 AM
I'm beginning to think the S4700 is the red headed stepchild of JBL Synthesis...I guess it sucks all the way around. Just lovely, really. :crying: :(You might not have cared much for the preceeding S4800 either. I think you need to hear a pair of M2's and see if they do it for you. I don't think the S4700 is the redheaded stepchild. I just think it is overpriced.

Mr. Widget
11-20-2013, 12:51 PM
I don't think the S4700 is the redheaded stepchild. I just think it is overpriced.I guess JBL did too... the first year it was available it cost $20K pr. The second year it was reduced to $15K pr... you don't see that often. ;)


Widget

4313B
11-20-2013, 01:17 PM
I guess JBL did too... the first year it was available it cost $20K pr. The second year it was reduced to $15K pr... you don't see that often. ;)I view it as kind of a 15-inch version of the 4429. What does the 4429 go for these days?

bubbleboy76
11-20-2013, 02:25 PM
Anyone who has the voltage drive diagram for the 4365 crossover?

Dave_72
11-20-2013, 05:29 PM
You might not have cared much for the preceeding S4800 either. I think you need to hear a pair of M2's and see if they do it for you. I don't think the S4700 is the redheaded stepchild. I just think it is overpriced.

I don't really truly think it sucks, I've been enjoying them for the most part recently. But you and others keep alluding to that, so it does annoy me and give me serious buyer's remorse to be honest after spending all the money that I did, even though I got a good discount. I am very bummed out and upset at all of this really. :confused: :(

As far as the M2s go, well, I'm going to CES, so I would think they'll be there...

Dave_72
11-20-2013, 05:32 PM
I guess JBL did too... the first year it was available it cost $20K pr. The second year it was reduced to $15K pr... you don't see that often. ;)


Widget

What is the list price now?

Dave_72
11-20-2013, 05:33 PM
Welcome you back,Dave,where are you fooling around?:D

Thanks. Just doing other things, really.

Mr. Widget
11-20-2013, 07:05 PM
What is the list price now?
My current price sheet has them at $15K per pair.

Widget

Dave_72
11-20-2013, 08:59 PM
My current price sheet has them at $15K per pair.

Widget

Thanks. :)

bubbleboy76
11-20-2013, 11:12 PM
I don't really truly think it sucks, I've been enjoying them for the most part recently. But you and others keep alluding to that, so it does annoy me and give me serious buyer's remorse to be honest after spending all the money that I did, even though I got a good discount. I am very bummed out and upset at all of this really. :confused: :(

As far as the M2s go, well, I'm going to CES, so I would think they'll be there...

Dave, the S4700 is the best speaker I have ever heard at an public show (Arken hifi-show in Gothenburg). It made me go back to JBL again. Don't overanalyse all crap written here, the S4700 is amazing.

hjames
11-21-2013, 04:44 AM
Thanks. :)

These marketing types ...
"All hail the new speaker", until another new speaker comes out and the older one becomes "junk".
It didn't suddenly become junk, it plays just as well as it did last month or last year ...
but - they gotta move that new product ...

No doubt, its better than what many readers here have at home!

Enjoy!

4313B
11-21-2013, 08:28 AM
I don't really truly think it sucks, I've been enjoying them for the most part recently. But you and others keep alluding to that, so it does annoy me and give me serious buyer's remorse to be honest after spending all the money that I did, even though I got a good discount. I am very bummed out and upset at all of this really. :confused: :(
The price point sucks. I did the math.

I think what started this was someone coming onto the forum and posting that their S4700's weren't doing it for them. I think folks tried to suggest that it was very probably a room issue. The designer himself said "There is nothing wrong with the S4700". Then it was a break-in issue. Then the M2 was released at an arguably superior price-performance ratio and it all went to hell after that. That's my take on it. I could be missing something.

Truth be told, I'd really prefer that you just like what you have and live with it. It really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.

Mr. Widget
11-21-2013, 08:37 AM
It's one thing to have Pro come out with a stellar model at a killer price point, they've been off the grid for years, having next to nothing to compete against the better Consumer models. It's another thing to then have Consumer, oops, I'm sorry, Harman Luxury, try and sell the same model. Bundling it with Levinson and some crap SDEC isn't going to make the situation any better either. Why didn't they just try bubblegum and bailing wire instead?As someone who sells more than a few speakers, I can tell you that many people buy these things for reasons other than their technical performance. Most people don't want to see their speakers, but for those who do, the look of the system and the physical package is as important as the performance for quite a few buyers.

Each one of these speakers has something to offer.


Widget

4313B
11-21-2013, 08:46 AM
As someone who sells more than a few speakers, I can tell you that many people buy these things for reasons other than their technical performance. Most people don't want to see their speakers, but for those who do, the look of the system and the physical package is as important as the performance for quite a few buyers.

Each one of these speakers has something to offer.


WidgetI edited my post while you were posting this because I decided that I didn't want to go there but yes, you're right.

Plus there is the fact that most people really don't mix the Pro world and the Consumer world together quite like we do on this forum. Heck, even JBL separated them out years ago. They even separate models out based on geographical location.

Mr. Widget
11-21-2013, 08:47 AM
For those looking for stunning HT performance and can live with this package, here is a real bargain from JBL. The JBL CBT-70J-1. I've heard these in a test room at work and was floored. Our chief engineer actually likes them better than the SAMs for behind the screen performance. Three of these at $1300 a pop and the subs and surrounds of your choice and you can have an amazing theater.


http://www.jblpro.com/BackOffice/ProductAttachments/CBT70J-1_022513.pdf


Widget

.

Mctwins
11-21-2013, 10:30 AM
Dave_72......The break-in issue must be done now, you can take that out of the equation.:)

Dave_72
11-21-2013, 01:10 PM
Dave_72......The break-in issue must be done now, you can take that out of the equation.:)

Right, I hear ya.

Dave_72
11-21-2013, 01:12 PM
The price point sucks. I did the math.

I think what started this was someone coming onto the forum and posting that their S4700's weren't doing it for them. I think folks tried to suggest that it was very probably a room issue. The designer himself said "There is nothing wrong with the S4700". Then it was a break-in issue. Then the M2 was released at an arguably superior price-performance ratio and it all went to hell after that. That's my take on it. I could be missing something.

Truth be told, I'd really prefer that you just like what you have and live with it. It really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.

You know, you have poo-pooed the speakers enough, really. That's what's getting on my last nerve. It's you, not anyone else here. So, can you just knock it off and quit being so damn blunt? Sheesh!

Dave_72
11-21-2013, 01:14 PM
Dave, the S4700 is the best speaker I have ever heard at an public show (Arken hifi-show in Gothenburg). It made me go back to JBL again. Don't overanalyse all crap written here, the S4700 is amazing.

Ok cool, thanks, I appreciate your positive feedback.

4313B
11-21-2013, 02:50 PM
You know, you have poo-pooed the speakers enough, really. That's what's getting on my last nerve. It's you, not anyone else here. So, can you just knock it off and quit being so damn blunt? Sheesh!Yeah, I'm sorry. I hate JBL loudspeakers in general. I certainly didn't mean to toss any extra hate at any particular model. Sorry for being so blunt too.

Dave_72
11-21-2013, 03:01 PM
Yeah, I'm sorry. I hate JBL loudspeakers in general. I certainly didn't mean to toss any extra hate at any particular model. Sorry for being so blunt too.

Whatever...:mad: Now you're trying to be a comedian with your condescending attitude. Take a hike, buddy. And go fly a kite.

bubbleboy76
11-21-2013, 03:29 PM
This is the second thread about 4365 that is being messed up. Should I start a third? But then we maybe have more threads about it than owners! :)

Dave_72
11-21-2013, 09:41 PM
This is the second thread about 4365 that is being messed up. Should I start a third? But then we maybe have more threads about it than owners! :)

Sorry about that. But I'm not gonna tolerate BS.:mad: From anyone. That's just the way I'm wired.

Mr. Widget
11-21-2013, 10:32 PM
Sorry about that. But I'm not gonna tolerate BS.:mad: From anyone. That's just the way I'm wired.I think we all handle our web frustrations differently... That said, I'm not sure why you need anyone's approval of your speakers... either you like them or you don't it is that simple.

To the original poster, I do apologize for veering off target. Unfortunately I can't comment on 4365s as I've never seen them, heard them, or really heard much about them.


Widget

hjames
11-22-2013, 02:33 AM
Maybe one of the mods can delete all of the posts here that aren't about 4365 speakers and clean this thread up?
Start with Martin_Wu99's posting of pix of the 4700s in #24 that begin the run off-topic and clean up from there ...

Its SO HARD to keep a single speaker thread on topic sometimes ...

Maron Horonzakz
11-22-2013, 06:56 AM
HHHHHMMMMMMM !!!!!! That reminds me...!!!!!!!!!:bouncy:

4313B
11-22-2013, 07:57 AM
Anyone who has the voltage drive diagram for the 4365 crossover?I posted the voltage drive some time ago, along with the voltage drives for the K2-S9900, DD65000, DD66000, and DD67000. I have no idea where in the forums I posted them. They have since been archived off my systems on some backup drives somewhere and it would take me time to find them again. Sorry.


Whatever...:mad: Now you're trying to be a comedian with your condescending attitude. Take a hike, buddy. And go fly a kite.


You know, you have poo-pooed the speakers enough, really. That's what's getting on my last nerve. It's you, not anyone else here. So, can you just knock it off and quit being so damn blunt? Sheesh!


Sorry about that. But I'm not gonna tolerate BS.:mad: From anyone. That's just the way I'm wired.You don't get what I'm all about and that's fine. You can go be mad in a corner somewhere if you want.

One last time for those who happen to come to this website on an S4700 search - THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE S4700 - if it isn't doing it for someone there are two possible reasons.

1.) User Error.
2.) The S4700 might not have the type of presentation a particular person is looking for.

As far as I know, the only people who have had anything negative to say with respect to their performance have been two owners and I attribute their negative responses to number 1 above. I can indeed be more blunt than that but I'll refrain. I am quite certain that no one here is feeding you any BS. I've have reviewed some of your posts and all I see is a whole bunch of gracious people trying to assist you. I have zero time left to allot to your particular predicament so have a nice life and try to enjoy your loudspeakers. :)



Finally, G.T. doesn't waste his time on systems that aren't worth it. The very fact that he would take the time to do a DSP workup for the S3900 and S4700 can be construed as proof positive that these systems are absolutely worth the time to invest in. That fact stands heads above whatever nitpicking we do here on this forum, whether it be price, performance, component complement, network topology, enclosure volume/tuning, etc.

Dave_72
11-22-2013, 12:03 PM
I posted the voltage drive some time ago, along with the voltage drives for the K2-S9900, DD65000, DD66000, and DD67000. I have no idea where in the forums I posted them. They have since been archived off my systems on some backup drives somewhere and it would take me time to find them again. Sorry.





You don't get what I'm all about and that's fine. You can go be mad in a corner somewhere if you want.

One last time for those who happen to come to this website on an S4700 search - THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE S4700 - if it isn't doing it for someone there are two possible reasons.

1.) User Error.
2.) The S4700 might not have the type of presentation a particular person is looking for.

As far as I know, the only people who have had anything negative to say with respect to their performance have been two owners and I attribute their negative responses to number 1 above. I can indeed be more blunt than that but I'll refrain. I am quite certain that no one here is feeding you any BS. I've have reviewed some of your posts and all I see is a whole bunch of gracious people trying to assist you. I have zero time left to allot to your particular predicament so have a nice life and try to enjoy your loudspeakers. :)



Finally, G.T. doesn't waste his time on systems that aren't worth it. The very fact that he would take the time to do a DSP workup for the S3900 and S4700 can be construed as proof positive that these systems are absolutely worth the time to invest in. That fact stands heads above whatever nitpicking we do here on this forum, whether it be price, performance, component complement, etc.


Ok, whatever...I'll just sit back and enjoy them. Matter of fact, I am. I still call BS. And I'm not gonna be second guessed regarding equipment upgrades. If I wanna do it, that's my right. I'm tired of the browbeating.

Mctwins
11-22-2013, 12:17 PM
For those looking for stunning HT performance and can live with this package, here is a real bargain from JBL. The JBL CBT-70J-1. I've heard these in a test room at work and was floored. Our chief engineer actually likes them better than the SAMs for behind the screen performance. Three of these at $1300 a pop and the subs and surrounds of your choice and you can have an amazing theater.


http://www.jblpro.com/BackOffice/ProductAttachments/CBT70J-1_022513.pdf


Widget

.

Nice speakers, one can have a real party at home, wheather resistance. :bouncy:

Mr. Widget
11-22-2013, 02:31 PM
Nice speakers, one can have a real party at home, wheather resistance. :bouncy:You do know how to party! :D


Widget

S4700
11-22-2013, 08:39 PM
I was one of the original members of this site when Don first started it,
i found the site a haven for us JBL junkies, i stopped posting in 2003
because people were hijacking posts and been dickheads, looks like things havent
changed much, and by the same players.
its way cool everyone has their say and share their experiences, how about we
be adults and get back on track, guys like Dave have spent a bunch on their systems
and want to get help to get the most out of their gear, not to mention feeling good about
their purchases, and i think if someone takes the time to start a thread, we should all stay
on topic.
Mick.

Mr. Widget
11-22-2013, 09:54 PM
I was one of the original members of this site when Don first started it,
i found the site a haven for us JBL junkies, i stopped posting in 2003
because people were hijacking posts and been dickheads, looks like things havent
changed much, and by the same players.
its way cool everyone has their say and share their experiences, how about we
be adults and get back on track, guys like Dave have spent a bunch on their systems
and want to get help to get the most out of their gear, not to mention feeling good about
their purchases, and i think if someone takes the time to start a thread, we should all stay
on topic.
Mick.Shouldn't you be posting this in the Forum Feedback area then? :)


Come on guys lighten up, this is only a hobby not a religion!


Widget

S4700
11-23-2013, 12:40 AM
Yes I could have, but some may not have seen it,

4313B
11-23-2013, 08:56 AM
That brings a question to mind. What makes the M2 so good compared to the s4700? Is it the horn or the D2 driver? We all know they use the same bass driver. I presume you would say the DSP. I know there are threads here suggesting using DSP for the different monitors aswell. Would there be another matter as to "what speaker is the best" if they all had use of a DSP?I have to come back to this again. Upon adding DSP to the S3900 and S4700 he seemed quite pleased with the results. The purpose of the exercises were to add delay and DSP correction to the crossover slopes to achieve true 24 dB/ Octave LR slopes. Icing on the cake really. This can be done with the 4365, K2-S9900 and any of the Everest II versions as well.

He is working on some new designs using DSP and it could be that they show up at the annual party out in SoCal in May. ;) Really, you guys should probably just make the trip and get the scoop first hand.

we all know that M2 is game changer and ender,but it is too expensiveHow is that? Did Harman recently raise the price of the M2 from $12k a pair? Or are you adding in the fact that it requires an active filter and a second amp. Aren't you going to be using an active filter and a second amp on any other world class system anyway? What if you had spent $40 grand on a pair of K2-S9900's? Are you really going to play the 80% game by running them with a single full range amp? Really? Wow... Ok...

Mostlydiy
11-24-2013, 03:54 AM
I have to come back to this again. Upon adding DSP to the S3900 and S4700 he seemed quite pleased with the results. The purpose of the exercises were to add delay and DSP correction to the crossover slopes to achieve true 24 dB/ Octave LR slopes. Icing on the cake really. This can be done with the 4365, K2-S9900 and any of the Everest II versions as well.

It wouldnt be to much trubble to stretch this dps corrections and apply phase corrections(FIR) as well I think. It would be interesting if he made a shot at it and told us what he thinks about it.


He is working on some new designs using DSP and it could be that they show up at the annual party out in SoCal in May. ;) Really, you guys should probably just make the trip and get the scoop first hand.

Spinning along on the dsp track after the succesful M2 was just a matter of time I guess, it will be very interesting to see what he comes up with.

/Mostly

martin_wu99
11-25-2013, 08:13 AM
For those looking for stunning HT performance and can live with this package, here is a real bargain from JBL. The JBL CBT-70J-1. I've heard these in a test room at work and was floored. Our chief engineer actually likes them better than the SAMs for behind the screen performance. Three of these at $1300 a pop and the subs and surrounds of your choice and you can have an amazing theater.


http://www.jblpro.com/BackOffice/ProductAttachments/CBT70J-1_022513.pdf


Widget

.
Beautiful,i have never seen them before,how can i get them?:banghead:

martin_wu99
11-25-2013, 08:28 AM
This is the second thread about 4365 that is being messed up. Should I start a third? But then we maybe have more threads about it than owners! :)
They have ruined my first 4365 post,and they are determined to destroy this one again:crying:

hjames
11-25-2013, 08:37 AM
Maybe one of the mods can delete all of the posts here that aren't about 4365 speakers and clean this thread up?
Start with Martin_Wu99's posting of pix of the 4700s in #24 that begin the run off-topic and clean up from there ...

Its SO HARD to keep a single speaker thread on topic sometimes ...


They have ruined my first 4365 post,and they are determined to destroy this one again:crying:

4313B
11-25-2013, 08:45 AM
They have ruined my first 4365 post, and they are determined to destroy this one again:crying:We're all waiting for you to buy a pair and tell us how good, or bad, they are. I noticed in post 6 that you said you'd turned to the S4700 instead. Did you buy a pair of them?
Maybe one of the mods can delete all of the posts here that aren't about 4365 speakers and clean this thread up?
Start with Martin_Wu99's posting of pix of the 4700s in #24 that begin the run off-topic and clean up from there ...Is there really any point? The very few people who have purchased these systems have all reported "problems" with them, primarily with the break-in period it seems. I'm perplexed about that because I've never said something like "G? How are the 4365's coming along?" and gotten a response of something like "Dude... I'm at the part where I have to wait for them to break in for six to nine months before I can voice the damn things..." :rotfl:

It took all of a week for my new pair of 1501FE's to break in and that's only because I left them in their "shipping cartons" for the first five days. Maybe UPS drop kicking them across 18-wheelers a few times counts heavily towards the break-in period? :dont-know:

But hey, what do I know about any of this stuff. I probably shouldn't be posting in this thread since I only have the 4365 components and networks (as well as all the requisite technical data) but not the factory enclosures too.

martin_wu99
11-25-2013, 09:29 AM
I have to come back to this again. Upon adding DSP to the S3900 and S4700 he seemed quite pleased with the results. The purpose of the exercises were to add delay and DSP correction to the crossover slopes to achieve true 24 dB/ Octave LR slopes. Icing on the cake really. This can be done with the 4365, K2-S9900 and any of the Everest II versions as well.

He is working on some new designs using DSP and it could be that they show up at the annual party out in SoCal in May. ;) Really, you guys should probably just make the trip and get the scoop first hand.
How is that? Did Harman recently raise the price of the M2 from $12k a pair? Or are you adding in the fact that it requires an active filter and a second amp. Aren't you going to be using an active filter and a second amp on any other world class system anyway? What if you had spent $40 grand on a pair of K2-S9900's? Are you really going to play the 80% game by running them with a single full range amp? Really? Wow... Ok...
4313B,please just relax,maybe you are too fast for us that i can not catch up with you,i have no intention to offend your authority,in fact i believe your word and i like S4700 more than 4365,and i began to look for a pair of ARRAY 1400 now.
Using DSP is a very good methed to improve speaker performance,but if from M2 on,every JBL speakers all with DSPs in it and all have perfect curves,just like Genelec,Dynaudio,Big foot,what a boring:blink:we need original speakers sound.
I haven't seen M2 appeared in Chinese mainland,one Hongkong web site has its price:89999 HK$,comparing with 4365,60000RMB,S4700,45000RMB,it is still too high.

pos
11-25-2013, 09:30 AM
It took all of a week for my new pair of 1501FE's to break in and that's only because I left them in their "shipping cartons" for the first five days. Maybe UPS drop kicking them across 18-wheelers a few times counts heavily towards the break-in period? :dont-know::rotfl:

martin_wu99
11-25-2013, 09:35 AM
Maybe one of the mods can delete all of the posts here that aren't about 4365 speakers and clean this thread up?
Start with Martin_Wu99's posting of pix of the 4700s in #24 that begin the run off-topic and clean up from there ...

Its SO HARD to keep a single speaker thread on topic sometimes ...
I do talking about 4365,but....:crying:

martin_wu99
11-25-2013, 09:39 AM
We're all waiting for you to buy a pair and tell us how good, or bad, they are. I noticed in post 6 that you said you'd turned to the S4700 instead. Did you buy a pair of them?Is there really any point? The very few people who have purchased these systems have all reported "problems" with them, primarily with the break-in period it seems. I'm perplexed about that because I've never said something like "G? How are the 4365's coming along?" and gotten a response of something like "Dude... I'm at the part where I have to wait for them to break in for six to nine months before I can voice the damn things..." :rotfl:

It took all of a week for my new pair of 1501FE's to break in and that's only because I left them in their "shipping cartons" for the first five days. Maybe UPS drop kicking them across 18-wheelers a few times counts heavily towards the break-in period? :dont-know:

But hey, what do I know about any of this stuff. I probably shouldn't be posting in this thread since I only have the 4365 components and networks (as well as all the requisite technical data) but not the factory enclosures too.
I REALLY think every speakers need break-in time, including JBL speakers,it is my view.:D

4313B
11-25-2013, 09:40 AM
4313B,please just relax,maybe you are too fast for us that i can not catch up with you,i have no intention to offend your authority,in fact i believe your word and i like S4700 more than 4365,and i began to look for a pair of ARRAY 1400 now.

Why not just buy what you like listening to? You are not offending my "authority". I don't have any "authority". I post the technical specs of these things and post my opinion. What you do with the technical information is your business.

What really gets me started is when someone posts that they don't like the way something sounds and it appears that they have not done due diligence. Are you familiar with Titanium Dome and his Home Theater? If not, he can tell you how the system sounded before and after someone with technical knowledge set the system up in his particular room. If you blow twelve grand or better on a pair of loudspeakers I really have to suggest having someone with a bit of expertise help you set them up. We have guys on this forum who can take a $4,000 pair of 4345's, set them up correctly and blow the pants off a pair of modern JBL's simply because the owners of the modern pair of JBL didn't do due diligence.

Let's just be honest. "I bought a new pair of K2-S9900's but I don't feel like doing anything with my room to enhance their performance. I don't feel like doing any kind of EQ. I might feel like toeing them in or out a bit and I might feel like moving them towards or away from a boundary but that's about all I am willing to do. Based on that, I personally think they suck in my environment. I'm going to buy something else. End of story." ;)


Using DSP is a very good methed to improve speaker performance,but if from M2 on,every JBL speakers all with DSPs in it and all have perfect curves,just like Genelec,Dynaudio,Big foot,what a boring:blink:we need original speakers sound.
I haven't seen M2 appeared in Chinese mainland,one Hongkong web site has its price:89999 HK$,comparing with 4365,60000RMB,S4700,45000RMB,it is still too high.Ok. I can understand that.
I REALLY think every speakers need break-in time, including JBL speakers,it is my view.:DI agree and have stated that numerous times. I've also posted that if it took a pair of my loudspeakers six to nine months to break in they'd be at the curb long before then. But, you know, that's just my viewpoint.

martin_wu99
11-25-2013, 09:44 AM
:rotfl:
Pos,what's wrong with you?:confused:what thing makes you so laughing?:blink:

4313B
11-25-2013, 09:53 AM
Pos,what's wrong with you?:confused:what thing makes you so laughing?:blink:I took it that he understands my twisted sense of humor? It was meant to be funny. I laughed, he laughed and then I laughed again. Weird eh?

martin_wu99
11-25-2013, 09:58 AM
I took it that he understands my twisted sense of humor? It was meant to be funny. I laughed, he laughed and then I laughed again. Weird eh?
I know it,but your humor is not funny at all:blink:

SEAWOLF97
11-25-2013, 11:05 AM
These marketing types ...
"All hail the new speaker", until another new speaker comes out and the older one becomes "junk".
It didn't suddenly become junk, it plays just as well as it did last month or last year ...
but - they gotta move that new product ...

No doubt, its better than what many readers here have at home!

Enjoy!

glad that someone else understands that. My 1980's (?) system is still better than what is in 99% (estimated) of Americas households .

The idea of kicking the old stuff to the curb and running out to buy the new wizbang shiny thing is moronic and plays straight into marketers/retailers hands. Geeze the half life of new smart phones seem to be 2 weeks to 6 months (at the most).

Gotta dispose of that disposable income before it becomes worthless ..:blink:

me, personally ... I've built my system to where it makes me happy and now it just plays nicely, money is spent on more worthy causes.

Mostlydiy
11-25-2013, 12:36 PM
glad that someone else understands that. My 1980's (?) system is still better than what is in 99% (estimated) of Americas households .

The idea of kicking the old stuff to the curb and running out to buy the new wizbang shiny thing is moronic and plays straight into marketers/retailers hands. Geeze the half life of new smart phones seem to be 2 weeks to 6 months (at the most).

Gotta dispose of that disposable income before it becomes worthless ..:blink:

me, personally ... I've built my system to where it makes me happy and now it just plays nicely, money is spent on more worthy causes.

I hear what you say and I very much agree with you, but without people buying new shiny things there wouldnt be any JBL or any other speakerbrands for that matter. A business needs to come up with new things to sell or they wont survive. The majority of the members on this forum though I believe are spread across the whole spectrum which makes it so interesting. Some buy new fancy stuff and some like the blue faced monitors of the 80th and some people are into the real old school stuff.

/Mostly

SEAWOLF97
11-25-2013, 02:00 PM
I hear what you say and I very much agree with you, but without people buying new shiny things there wouldnt be any JBL or any other speakerbrands for that matter. A business needs to come up with new things to sell or they wont survive. The majority of the members on this forum though I believe are spread across the whole spectrum which makes it so interesting. Some buy new fancy stuff and some like the blue faced monitors of the 80th and some people are into the real old school stuff.

/Mostly

Am in agreement with most of what you write. BUT, I have a big problem replacing a quality item that's working well . That continual replacement cycle is -IMHO- what is killing Microsoft & The PC. To stay above water and in business , the producers need to innovate and devise new gear instead of re inventing the same thing over & over. When you reach a certain quality level, any more is mostly flash & overkill.

I would guess that if you do a survey of the speakers of LHF members, the huge majority would be vintage (before year 2000). JBL now seems to target to Best Buy, and the popular image of the company has been cheapened considerably (though we all on this forum know they are still capable of high quality products), marketing them seems their weak area tho.

hjames
11-25-2013, 02:55 PM
Think the real problem is that there just isn't of a market for high fidelity gear. If they don't continually resell US,
then the majority of the market is VERY high end boutique buyers (who are also not replacing their system yearly)
and the iPod ear-bud generation - who seems to be the market for the Best Buy gear ...

Unless something fails, I'm like Seawolf - pretty happy with the gear I already have.
Most of my purchases these days are media - CDs, SACDs, Movies and such ...

Mostlydiy
11-25-2013, 11:33 PM
Am in agreement with most of what you write. BUT, I have a big problem replacing a quality item that's working well.

I believe its called the hifi nut disease, there might be something that is better out there... :)

/Mostly

bubbleboy76
11-26-2013, 12:54 AM
This thread is the gift that keeps on giving :)

Interesting that 4365 is more expensive than S4700 in Asia, and the other way around in Europe.
I couldn't afford the S4700, that is why I bought the 4365 instead.
Blue-baffle charge in Asia? :)

Mctwins
11-26-2013, 01:35 AM
I REALLY think every speakers need break-in time, including JBL speakers,it is my view.:D

Yes, they do need break-in time. but NO 6-12 month. It just take a couple of hours. To be on the safe side, 24 hours. Then you are done.:applaud:

4313B
11-26-2013, 04:54 AM
It wouldnt be to much trubble to stretch this dps corrections and apply phase corrections(FIR) as well I think. It would be interesting if he made a shot at it and told us what he thinks about it.
Ok, point me to that software again.

Preferably a complete hardware/software solution.

Mostlydiy
11-26-2013, 11:41 AM
Ok, point me to that software again.

Preferably a complete hardware/software solution.

Im kind of embarassed because Im not bright enough to figure out how they do it. I know pos software (http://sourceforge.net/projects/rephase/) is used somehow. I think that it generates some fir info to be used in a convolution engine. BSS London 800 might work possibly. Hopefully G.T. can figure out how to do it, maybe with the help of someone here brighter than me.

/Mostly

JBLAddict
11-27-2013, 06:55 AM
Am in agreement with most of what you write. BUT, I have a big problem replacing a quality item that's working well . That continual replacement cycle is -IMHO- what is killing Microsoft & The PC. To stay above water and in business , the producers need to innovate and devise new gear instead of re inventing the same thing over & over. When you reach a certain quality level, any more is mostly flash & overkill.

I would guess that if you do a survey of the speakers of LHF members, the huge majority would be vintage (before year 2000). JBL now seems to target to Best Buy, and the popular image of the company has been cheapened considerably (though we all on this forum know they are still capable of high quality products), marketing them seems their weak area tho.

this reminds me of a classic from one of my all-time publications; if you happen to read this you'll quickly see the parallels with most products in any industry. It just sounds so new, and appealing, and high tech, and well....BETTER, that we at some point just have to have it because it turned our existing treasures into muck!
http://www.theonion.com/articles/revolutionary-new-insoles-combine-five-forms-of-ps,759/

JBLAddict
11-27-2013, 07:12 AM
What is the list price now?

4429= $2553/ea (MSRP per Harman Japan)
4700= $4615/ea
4338= $6580/ea
4365= $7857/ea

I've only heard the 4338 among them in japan, and am still haunted by the stunning beauty and balance of the 435Al/045Ti combo.

AND IN OTHER NEWS, for those interested, a guy at work who I traveled with to Akhihabara in 2009 was back last week, and told me the two buildings, Dynamic Sound and Refino&Enhilo, have been demolished and replaced by some other shopping center. Every insane high end JBL system was in those two buildings, hooked to millions in top end electronics, with floors of open, unrestricted, unsupervised listening... sad.
6073260733

Mostlydiy
11-27-2013, 07:32 AM
this reminds me of a classic from one of my all-time publications; if you happen to read this you'll quickly see the parallels with most products in any industry. It just sounds so new, and appealing, and high tech, and well....BETTER, that we at some point just have to have it because it turned our existing treasures into muck!
http://www.theonion.com/articles/revolutionary-new-insoles-combine-five-forms-of-ps,759/

Im really dont know where you are getting with this article but beeing more of a science oriented person this made me :rotfl:

pos
11-27-2013, 07:47 AM
Im kind of embarassed because Im not bright enough to figure out how they do it. I know pos software (http://sourceforge.net/projects/rephase/) is used somehow. I think that it generates some fir info to be used in a convolution engine. BSS London 800 might work possibly. Hopefully G.T. can figure out how to do it, maybe with the help of someone here brighter than me.

/Mostly

I think you got it right.
rePhase can be used to setup a manual amplitude and phase correction (minimum-phase, linear-phase, or correcting the minimum-phase behavior of existing crossovers, etc.), and then requires a convolution engine to "run" that FIR correction.
There are many software convolution engines (plugins, as well as integrated in common media players), and a few hardware ones (More10's crossover being one of these devices).
Contrary to IIR solutions, convolution requires a lot of CPU power, and the lower in frequency and sharper your corrections, the harder it is on the CPU. For example a 96dB/oct filter set at 100Hz will require much more power than a 12dB/oct filter at 10kHz...

More10's crossover makes use of special tricks and optimizations to be able to do these convolution on 8 channels on a "normal" DSP.
I hope he will find a way to distribute his solution as it is head and shoulders above anything available on the market in terms of usable FIR power. I think he described it somewhere here, but I cannot find it rigth now (that topic seems to be spread on several threads for some reason).

miniDSP also has a multiway solutions called miniSHARC (up to 8 channels) but does not implement these tricks and the power is a little bit tight...
That miniSHARC solution is also integrated in a product they call openDRC, which is limited to 2 channels processing at 48kHz.
By limiting the convolution engine to 2 channels the device has enough power for most corrections to be done in FIR. It also has an IIR engine to complement those.

Najda is also a potential solution, but the available FIR power is also quite limited as of now.

There are other convolution engines on the market (Ev DX46, Dolby Lake, DEQX, ...) but they do not let the user load its own corrections (generated by rePhase for example) and are limited in functionalities.

As of now, the openDRC is probably the best bet for immediate use. It exists in either analogue or digital I/O versions.

If the goal is to linearize the phase of a set of loudspeakers (stereo), and possibly also apply global amplitude corrections, then one unit is enough.
If the goal is to do the actual active crossover with this device (for example implementing the M2 settings, as well as phase linearization all in one shot), then a 2-way loudspeakers system (such as M2, or S4700/S3900 if keeping the UHF fully passive) will of course need one device per speaker...

There is a thread about rePhase on the diyaudio forum, but I would be happy to answer questions here by PM as well.
(and of course if GT were to use my software then I would be honored, and disposed to help/assist as much as I could :D )

Mr. Widget
11-27-2013, 07:58 AM
(that topic seems to be spread on several threads for some reason)The organic nature of human interaction. ;)

Thanks for the info... it is very illuminating for those of us who have only dipped a toe into these waters and it also sounds very intriguing!


Widget

Dave_72
11-27-2013, 08:40 AM
4429= $2553/ea (MSRP per Harman Japan)
4700= $4615/ea
4338= $6580/ea
4365= $7857/ea

I've only heard the 4338 among them in japan, and am still haunted by the stunning beauty and balance of the 435Al/045Ti combo.

AND IN OTHER NEWS, for those interested, a guy at work who I traveled with to Akhihabara in 2009 was back last week, and told me the two buildings, Dynamic Sound and Refino&Enhilo, have been demolished and replaced by some other shopping center. Every insane high end JBL system was in those two buildings, hooked to millions in top end electronics, with floors of open, unrestricted, unsupervised listening... sad.
6073260733

Thanks for that. The 4700s are much cheaper in Japan!

hjames
11-27-2013, 08:50 AM
I took it that he understands my twisted sense of humor?
It was meant to be funny. I laughed, he laughed and then I laughed again. Weird eh?


I know it,but your humor is not funny at all:blink:

Oh, relax - its a lot of kiddink but it seemed funny enough ...
I swear, some folks need to go offline for fresh air and a change of people now and then!
and maybe sell their crappy old 4700s and buy some M2s!
Misery loves a paycheck, hmmm?

4313B
11-27-2013, 10:01 AM
Alas, no interest in FIR at this point, and no interest in the 4365 ever, so we're on our own. I had a feeling that would be the case.

Thank you for the summarization though pos.


There is a thread about rePhase on the diyaudio forum, but I would be happy to answer questions here by PM as well.I'm not a big fan of audio forums but if you could post a link to it I would like to look at it specifically.

Mostlydiy
11-27-2013, 11:48 AM
Alas, no interest in FIR at this point, and no interest in the 4365 ever, so we're on our own. I had a feeling that would be the case.


Thats a shame... I think we will hear a lot more about FIR in the future so I believe he will be introduced sooner or later anyhow. Since the vast majority of speakers utilize vented system designs, all of them have at least one phase issue that could be corrected using this technique if Im not mistaken. Rather big market no?

/Mostly

more10
11-27-2013, 12:59 PM
More10's crossover makes use of special tricks and optimizations to be able to do these convolution on 8 channels on a "normal" DSP.
I hope he will find a way to distribute his solution as it is head and shoulders above anything available on the market in terms of usable FIR power.

I am flattered. But those special tricks where actually pos idea, I just coded them. :D


I think he described it somewhere here, but I cannot find it rigth now (that topic seems to be spread on several threads for some reason).

Here it is (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?33972-JBL-Master-Reference-Monitor&p=355060&viewfull=1#post355060)

Goophy
11-27-2013, 02:10 PM
I've had great success with FIR correction on my 4365s.
Just using a cheap miniDSP OpenDRC helps a lot!

I'm also running a miniDSP for the active crossover, but it has way too much noise on the outputs.
Need to replace it with something better some day.

pos
11-27-2013, 03:27 PM
I am flattered. But those special tricks where actually pos idea, I just coded them. :D
I just pointed out what four audio did in the HD2, you are the one how figured out how to implement it in DSP code :)


Here it is (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?33972-JBL-Master-Reference-Monitor&p=355060&viewfull=1#post355060)
This is a good place to ask questions, but it is a long read if you want to get an accurate picture of were the software is right now.
rePhase has evolved a lot since day one of that thread, and things like measurement import and other stuff have been integrated along the way.
First post of that thread has been kept up to date with a the change log, but it is a bit difficult to catch up as well.

I think the best way to get an accurate picture of what rePhase can do is this application note from miniDSP:
http://www.minidsp.com/applications/advanced-tools/rephase-fir-tool

Of course it is focused on miniDSP hardware, but everything they explain can be done with any convolution software, as well as hardware solutions like more10's one (with more taps available :D )


Thats a shame... I think we will hear a lot more about FIR in the future so I believe he will be introduced sooner or later anyhow. Since the vast majority of speakers utilize vented system designs, all of them have at least one phase issue that could be corrected using this technique if Im not mistaken. Rather big market no?

/Mostly

FIR is mostly seen as a way to do linear-phase crossovers (mostly brickwall ones, with slopes dictated by a given window algorithm and length) and automated correction (based on measurement impulse inversion like what DRC does).
But in essence FIR let you manipulate amplitude and phase independently and arbitrarily (well as long as you have enough taps, ie CPU power).
You can do minimum-phase (similar to IIR and passive crossovers) in FIR, with 0 additional delay, or anything...
FIR can bring a lot of benefit when phase-linearizing a "classic" loudspeaker (its crossover-induced phase shifts, as well as the one coming from the box tuning) and fixing its amplitude curve, but most benefit is gained when you can design your loudspeaker and crossovers with FIR in mind from the ground up (Horbach-Keele crossover topology is one such example).
rePhase is really focused on manual correction and filtering, nothing is automated so the user is in control and takes all the decisions based on his measurement(s). Other software like DRC (and Align2) let you do automated corrections. It is up to the user to choose, and once you have a correction impulse you can run it on any convolution engine you like (hardware, software, or even offline by batch processing your songs...)

(sorry for the OT...)

pos
11-27-2013, 03:49 PM
I've had great success with FIR correction on my 4365s.
Just using a cheap miniDSP OpenDRC helps a lot!
That brings us back on topic :D
How did you generate your FIR correction?

Goophy
11-28-2013, 12:17 AM
That brings us back on topic :D
How did you generate your FIR correction?

I've tried both Acourate and rePhase and tuned a bit manually.
They give pretty much the same result.

Amazing how much cleaner those filters make everything sound!

4313B
11-28-2013, 03:49 AM
Thats a shame... I think we will hear a lot more about FIR in the future so I believe he will be introduced sooner or later anyhow.It has to do with his currently available equipment. I've no doubt he'll give it a go when he has time.
I've had great success with FIR correction on my 4365s.I'll be trying something similar.

martin_wu99
11-28-2013, 08:34 PM
This thread is the gift that keeps on giving :)

Interesting that 4365 is more expensive than S4700 in Asia, and the other way around in Europe.
I couldn't afford the S4700, that is why I bought the 4365 instead.
Blue-baffle charge in Asia? :)
Ridiculous:eek:,the cost of 4365 is much more than S4700:crying:

martin_wu99
11-28-2013, 08:38 PM
Yes, they do need break-in time. but NO 6-12 month. It just take a couple of hours. To be on the safe side, 24 hours. Then you are done.:applaud:
No way,a couple of hours is not called break-in,just called warm up.
6-12 months for break-in is a must:D

martin_wu99
11-28-2013, 08:51 PM
4429= $2553/ea (MSRP per Harman Japan)
4700= $4615/ea
4338= $6580/ea
4365= $7857/ea

I've only heard the 4338 among them in japan, and am still haunted by the stunning beauty and balance of the 435Al/045Ti combo.

AND IN OTHER NEWS, for those interested, a guy at work who I traveled with to Akhihabara in 2009 was back last week, and told me the two buildings, Dynamic Sound and Refino&Enhilo, have been demolished and replaced by some other shopping center. Every insane high end JBL system was in those two buildings, hooked to millions in top end electronics, with floors of open, unrestricted, unsupervised listening... sad.
6073260733
So expensive in Japan?in Chinese market
4365=60000RMB/pair(4894US$/ea)
4700=46000RMB/pair(3752US$/ea)
4429=25000RMB/pair(2039US$/ea)

martin_wu99
11-28-2013, 08:55 PM
Thanks for that. The 4700s are much cheaper in Japan!
The S4700 is even more cheaper in China:D

martin_wu99
11-28-2013, 09:04 PM
Oh, relax - its a lot of kiddink but it seemed funny enough ...
I swear, some folks need to go offline for fresh air and a change of people now and then!
and maybe sell their crappy old 4700s and buy some M2s!
Misery loves a paycheck, hmmm?
4313B laughed at the so-called break-in,he said he kicked his speakers several time as a break-in :crying:

hjames
11-28-2013, 09:15 PM
4313B laughed at the so-called break-in,he said he kicked his speakers several time as a break-in :crying:

No, he was joking that the delivery company kicked his speakers around on the way to him
- we sometimes have problems with rough and tumble delivery people!!

Dave_72
11-28-2013, 10:05 PM
The S4700 is even more cheaper in China:D

I see that! Crazy...:D

Dave_72
11-28-2013, 10:06 PM
No way,a couple of hours is not called break-in,just called warm up.
6-12 months for break-in is a must:D

I agree. :coolness:

Mctwins
11-29-2013, 01:34 AM
No way,a couple of hours is not called break-in,just called warm up.
6-12 months for break-in is a must:D

Base on what theory are you refering this statement too??


I agree. :coolness:

What do you agree, are you still breaking in??:eek:

It seems that both of you really don't undertstand how mechanical behavior works.

If you guy's are so anal about break-in time and other high-end theories, why don't I see any acoustical treatments in your rooms:confused: This is the most important.

You guy's are going in circles and will never be satisfied even after 12 month of break-in time. I have very hard to belive that you will remember how it sounded after so long time compare too when the speakers was new.

JBL don't need so much time to break-in, just play LOUD music for 24hours or couple of days and you are done. Then forgett about the break-in, if you are still not satisfied, then there is some other problems to deal with, like room acoustics.:bouncy:

martin_wu99
11-29-2013, 06:13 AM
Base on what theory are you refering this statement too??



What do you agree, are you still breaking in??:eek:

It seems that both of you really don't undertstand how mechanical behavior works.

If you guy's are so anal about break-in time and other high-end theories, why don't I see any acoustical treatments in your rooms:confused: This is the most important.

You guy's are going in circles and will never be satisfied even after 12 month of break-in time. I have very hard to belive that you will remember how it sounded after so long time compare too when the speakers was new.

JBL don't need so much time to break-in, just play LOUD music for 24hours or couple of days and you are done. Then forgett about the break-in, if you are still not satisfied, then there is some other problems to deal with, like room acoustics.:bouncy:
No theory needed,only from experiences.it is a common sense,just like you buy a pair of new shoes,you need some time to let shoes fit your feet.

martin_wu99
11-29-2013, 06:18 AM
I see that! Crazy...:D
Do you need me to buy a pair of 4365 for you?:D

Mostlydiy
11-29-2013, 08:06 AM
Amazing how much cleaner those filters make everything sound!

Thats about how I felt with More10´s filter. It produces a very "clean" sound. OpenDRC wont do it for me since it wont allow 4 way filters(unless you buy more of them). I will have to flirt with More10 and make him whip out a filter for me as well :) bästa pris kompis!

/Mostly

hjames
11-29-2013, 08:06 AM
Do you need i buy a pair of 4365 for you?:D

Yes please.

Thank you very much for such kindness!

Mostlydiy
11-29-2013, 08:07 AM
Do you need i buy a pair of 4365 for you?:D

I want a pair too...

/Mostly

Dave_72
11-29-2013, 06:19 PM
Do you need i buy a pair of 4365 for you?:D

Sure, why not? :yes:

Dave_72
11-29-2013, 06:21 PM
No need theory,only from experiences.it is a common sense,just like you buy a pair of new shoe,you need some time to fit your feet.

:yes: I agree.

martin_wu99
11-30-2013, 01:33 AM
Yes please.

Thank you very much for such kindness!
I'll PM my acount,RMB or US$ all OK,but freight collect.

martin_wu99
11-30-2013, 01:36 AM
I want a pair too...

/Mostly
OK,no problem,$ and your address:D

martin_wu99
11-30-2013, 01:42 AM
Sure, why not? :yes:
So there are 3 pairs of 4365 total:applaud:

Dave_72
11-30-2013, 10:04 AM
So there are 3 pairs of 4365 total:applaud:

Cool! :coolness:

SEAWOLF97
11-30-2013, 10:11 AM
get me a pair too ..

I have a friend in Nigeria who will send you a BIG check,
you take whats needed for the purchase and send me the remainder
(along with the speakers) ...you can keep a couple hundred for your work. ;)

martin_wu99
11-30-2013, 11:21 PM
get me a pair too ..

I have a friend in Nigeria who will send you a BIG check,
you take whats needed for the purchase and send me the remainder
(along with the speakers) ...you can keep a couple hundred for your work. ;)
Stop kidding instead of stop spying:D
Why Nigeria? no any charge,only my pleasure

martin_wu99
12-01-2013, 03:40 AM
Cool! :coolness:
These ones are all made in Mexico:blink:

Dave_72
12-01-2013, 08:42 PM
These ones are all made in Mexico:blink:

Yes I know...:D

SEAWOLF97
12-04-2013, 06:50 PM
here is a quote that seems somewhat relevant to earlier conversation in this thread.
and no, I don't agree 100%

from Paul Kingsnorth
"...To ask that question in those terms is to misunderstand what is going on. Brushcutters are not used instead of scythes because they are better, they are used because their use is conditioned by our attitudes to technology. Performance is not really the point, and neither is efficiency. Religion is the point; the religion of complexity. The myth of progress manifested in tool form. Plastic is better than wood. Moving parts are better than fixed parts. Noisy things are better than quiet things. Complicated things are better than simple things. New things are better than old things. We all believe this, whether we like it or not. It’s how we were brought up."

Jonas_h
02-12-2014, 03:56 AM
Does anyone have the data (distortion, off-axis, directivity etc) for the 4365 speaker? The post in the forum section about system information is empty.

Ian Mackenzie
02-20-2014, 11:00 AM
Thought I would chime in.

Think its depends on systems you intend to compare side by side.

I did ths in Japan and despite the higher specification of the 9800 referred the 4338. The 4365 ups the anti on resolving power but otherwise the presentation has similarities

I think this is because I was used to the live sound and high impact blue baffle systems and the dominant base.

The trend JBL is following is more contemporary listening preferences and this is surfacing in the 4700.

DK11706
03-10-2014, 01:32 AM
Before you buy any JBL speakers from Asia be warned that I was told by JBL that a western world model is different compared to a asian model even if the model number is the same (they are all build in mexico). Cabinets and units are the same, but they are tuned differently.

I asked JBL because I found 2 sets of specs. for a model 4429. Not saying its true........but it's worth checking before buying.

Odd
03-10-2014, 03:20 AM
Before you buy any JBL speakers from Asia be warned that I was told by JBL that a western world model is different compared to a asian model even if the model number is the same (they are all build in mexico). Cabinets and units are the same, but they are tuned differently.

I asked JBL because I found 2 sets of specs. for a model 4429. Not saying its true........but it's worth checking before buying.

Will you let us see the specs. ?

DK11706
03-10-2014, 04:37 AM
Link 1 from JBL EMEA:
http://eu.jbl.com/jbl_product_detail_eu/jbl-studio-monitor-4429.html

(http://eu.jbl.com/jbl_product_detail_eu/jbl-studio-monitor-4429.html)

Same model from Harman in Japan:

Look at the frequency response.

http://jbl.harman-japan.co.jp/product.php?id=4429


The tweeter is also supposed to be a few db louder as default, as many asians seems to prefers that.

martin_wu99
03-10-2014, 10:09 AM
Before you buy any JBL speakers from Asia be warned that I was told by JBL that a western world model is different compared to a asian model even if the model number is the same (they are all build in mexico). Cabinets and units are the same, but they are tuned differently.

I asked JBL because I found 2 sets of specs. for a model 4429. Not saying its true........but it's worth checking before buying.
Really?who told you that?:eek:
It can not be truth.

SEAWOLF97
03-10-2014, 10:22 AM
The tweeter is also supposed to be a few db louder as default, as many asians seems to prefers that.

OKAY ..this response is from shaky personal knowledge and NOT a knock on anyone.

Have you ever noticed Asians speaking rather loud in stores ?? Wondered why ?

Those who are old enough to shop for this type of gear were born when childhood inoculations were not as important as feeding the people ... many countries (not really Japan tho) did not give childhood TB shots to the population . In SE Asia , everybody had an exposure to tuberculous (including me , having lived there a bit .. I was treated for a year after return to CONUS at 23) .... they developed perforated ear drums , which decrease hearing sensitivity. This doesn't ever "self repair".

As I said, this is personal theory and I've not read it anywhere.

Ian Mackenzie
03-16-2014, 12:16 PM
I am not sure I agree given the number of 4343s in Japan and Asia and very large horn systems.

Contemporary listening tastes aside, would not call the West Coast sound an audiophile experience and I have no doubt JBL (Japan) wants to distance the brand from that.

FWIW, I heard the 4365 recently, I'd need to hear it again but did not do it for me.

DK11706
03-17-2014, 12:16 PM
Try looking at the 4429, best buy if you ask me. So well balanced and smooth but also kinda cruel and powerful, the only real downside is that they need to be turned up loud to be at their best :rockon1::rockon1::rockon1:

bubbleboy76
03-26-2014, 04:54 AM
I bought a used DBX Driverack 260 with microphone today. I will try to get the best out of my 4365s with active crossover.

I have never worked with crossovers before, so any hints and tips are welcome.

I will make it a 2-way and skip the UHF-driver. Crossover around 800Hz to start with. I know a guy in Norway (goophy) that uses 850Hz on his 4365s.

How do I now which delay-time to set? Should I measure the distance-difference between the compression-driver and the bass-element? Or should I measure this with the microphone?

What filter type for crossover should I use to start with?

Selections are:

BS (Bessel) with a slope of 6, 12, 18, or 24 dB/Octave.

BW (Butterworth ) with a slope of 6, 12, 18, or 24 dB/Octave.

LR (Linkwitz-Riley) with a slope of 12, 24, 36, or 48 dB/Octave.





Anyone knows if the Auto-EQ in the DBX 260 is of any use?

Goophy, if you are reading this, how did you connect to the 1501fe-element, did you reach it from behind the speaker-terminals on the backside?

Jonas_h
03-26-2014, 05:19 AM
I bought a used DBX Driverack 260 with microphone today. I will try to get the best out of my 4365s with active crossover.

I have never worked with crossovers before, so any hints and tips are welcome.

I will make it a 2-way and skip the UHF-driver. Crossover around 800Hz to start with. I know a guy in Norway (goophy) that uses 850Hz on his 4365s.

How do I now which delay-time to set? Should I measure the distance-difference between the compression-driver and the bass-element? Or should I measure this with the microphone?

What filter type for crossover should I use to start with?

Selections are:


BS (Bessel) with a slope of 6, 12, 18, or 24 dB/Octave.
BW (Butterworth ) with a slope of 6, 12, 18, or 24 dB/Octave.
LR (Linkwitz-Riley) with a slope of 12, 24, 36, or 48 dB/Octave.




Anyone knows if the Auto-EQ in the DBX 260 is of any use?

Goophy, if you are reading this, how did you connect to the 1501fe-element, did you reach it from behind the speaker-terminals on the backside?


No simple answer for what you are asking. The approach I am using when I do active crossover (not the 4365 though) is to measure each driver seperately and assign the slope+filters which makes each driver follow a 24db/oct LR response. Then I measure then LF driver and HF driver seperately again and analyse the phase response around the crossover to set the correct delay.

more10
03-26-2014, 05:20 AM
Get an audio interface and a measurement mic. A small amp can also be of use. I use the Focusrite Scarlett Ii2i, there is a thread (http://www.hififorum.nu/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=86260) about it in Swedish Hififourm. Are you a member?

You can measure distance to sound source in Holmimpulse. Arta is another good free measurement program.

Linkwitz-Riley 24 dB is the way to go.

Mårten

Jonas_h
03-26-2014, 05:22 AM
Get an audio interface and a measurement mic. A small amp can also be of use. I use the Focusrite Scarlett Ii2i, there is a thread (http://www.hififorum.nu/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=86260) about it in Swedish Hififourm. Are you a member?

You can measure distance to sound source in Holmimpulse. Arta is another good free measurement program.

Linkwitz-Riley 24 dB is the way to go.

Mårten
LR 24db is the way to go for the acoustical crossover slopes... But the acoustic slope is not necessarily identical to the electrical slope.

more10
03-26-2014, 05:58 AM
Of course. 24 db LR with time-alignment is difficult enough to achieve with new equipment and doing the measurements. Lets see measurements of the system with this configuration before doing more advanced things.

ivica
03-28-2014, 08:15 AM
I bought a used DBX Driverack 260 with microphone today. I will try to get the best out of my 4365s with active crossover.
I have never worked with crossovers before, so any hints and tips are welcome.
I will make it a 2-way and skip the UHF-driver. Crossover around 800Hz to start with. I know a guy in Norway (goophy) that uses 850Hz on his 4365s.
How do I now which delay-time to set? Should I measure the distance-difference between the compression-driver and the bass-element? Or should I measure this with the microphone?
What filter type for crossover should I use to start with?
Selections are:

BS (Bessel) with a slope of 6, 12, 18, or 24 dB/Octave.
BW (Butterworth ) with a slope of 6, 12, 18, or 24 dB/Octave.
LR (Linkwitz-Riley) with a slope of 12, 24, 36, or 48 dB/Octave.

....?

Hi

May be famous "JMLC" words can help:

"...If the 2 drivers are aligned at the same distance of the listener, then the low-frequency loudspeaker has to be moved toward the listener of a distance equal to 0.22 x wavelength at Fr...."

so for Fr=800Hz.
D= 0.22*345/800 [m] = 0.095m = 9.5cm,
but VHF driver with horn would introduce some delay too....
so measurements would be the best solution.

Regards
ivica

bubbleboy76
03-28-2014, 09:14 AM
Thanx for the info guys, very much helpful!

bubbleboy76
03-28-2014, 12:08 PM
Hi
so for Fr=800Hz.
D= 0.22*345/800 [m] = 0.095m = 9.5cm,


Kind of explains why the compression-driver is recessed approximately that distance. I learned something new today :)

Earl K
03-28-2014, 02:15 PM
Hi

May be famous "JMLC" words can help:

"...If the 2 drivers are aligned at the same distance of the listener, then the low-frequency loudspeaker has to be moved toward the listener of a distance equal to 0.22 x wavelength at Fr...."

so for Fr=800Hz.
D= 0.22*345/800 [m] = 0.095m = 9.5cm,
but VHF driver with horn would introduce some delay too....
so measurements would be the best solution.

Regards
ivica

Hi Ivica,

Are you able to provide a link to the thread where JMLC talks about this rule of thumb ?

I'd like to see if there is a formula ( hiding ) behind that "applied" constant .

Thanks :)

bubbleboy76
03-28-2014, 03:43 PM
Get an audio interface and a measurement mic. A small amp can also be of use. I use the Focusrite Scarlett Ii2i, there is a thread (http://www.hififorum.nu/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=86260) about it in Swedish Hififourm. Are you a member?

You can measure distance to sound source in Holmimpulse. Arta is another good free measurement program.

Linkwitz-Riley 24 dB is the way to go.

Mårten

I have REW and the Radioshack SPL Meter to start with. But maybe I will use my DBX rta-m microphone with this Focusrite-thing later on. Thanx for the tip.

I tried some times to be a member of hififorum, never succeded though!

ivica
03-29-2014, 04:37 AM
Kind of explains why the compression-driver is recessed approximately that distance. I learned something new today :)


Hi,

You have to think that almost any kind of filter would introduce some kind of signal delays. So LF section of the filter would introduce some kind of the signal delay (driving LF driver). So a kind of the network delay has to be "compensated by the geometry".
Not to forget that each driver has to be 'modeled' as a kind of band-pass filter too.



Regards

ivica

ivica
03-29-2014, 04:49 AM
Hi Ivica,

Are you able to provide a link to the thread where JMLC talks about this rule of thumb ?

I'd like to see if there is a formula ( hiding ) behind that "applied" constant .

Thanks :)

HI Erl_K,

May be can be started from here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/231594-quasi-optimal-crossover-high-efficiency-loudspeaker-system.html

or even better from here:
http://nicolas.davidenko.perso.sfr.fr/filtragejmlc/filtragejmmlc.html

but I think there is English version somewhere too.

http://freerider.dyndns.org/anlage/LeCleach1.zip

http://freerider.dyndns.org/anlage/LeCleach2.zip

on the second link You can find the file: crossovers_JML.ppt where more explanation is.

http://freerider.dyndns.org/anlage/LeCleach.htm


But on the Internet can be find the whole JMLC presentation of his view over speakers filtering vision.

bubbleboy76
04-05-2014, 03:24 PM
I started fiddling with the dbx driverack 260 today.

If I want to crossover at 800Hz with LR24db-slope, should I then set the high pass/lowpass crossover points to exactly 800Hz? Or should I set it like 790 and 810 and then the slopes starts going down and meeting a bit down? Or is the driverack doing this automatically, so I just have to enter the intersection-frequency, so to speak?

I don't have amplifier-channels enough yet, so I am just "dry-coding" the driverack for now.

audiomagnate
04-05-2014, 09:20 PM
I started fiddling with the dbx driverack 260 today.

If I want to crossover at 800Hz with LR24db-slope, should I then set the high pass/lowpass crossover points to exactly 800Hz? Or should I set it like 790 and 810 and then the slopes starts going down and meeting a bit down? Or is the driverack doing this automatically, so I just have to enter the intersection-frequency, so to speak?

I don't have amplifier-channels enough yet, so I am just "dry-coding" the driverack for now.

You would set it at 800.

Jonas_h
04-06-2014, 12:35 AM
As I wrote earlier there is no way of telling at what frequency and what slope to set it to. That depends on the natural response of the drivers. You probably need some HF-compensation filters for the CD as well.
You need measurements :)

bubbleboy76
04-06-2014, 03:55 AM
As I wrote earlier there is no way of telling at what frequency and what slope to set it to. That depends on the natural response of the drivers. You probably need some HF-compensation filters for the CD as well.
You need measurements :)

what is "CD"?

I know, I will measure for sure!

Jonas_h
04-06-2014, 04:08 AM
Compression driver :)

btw i am looking forward to your results. I have thought about doing The same for my next speaker purchase. But The M2's are a tempting choice as well!

more10
04-06-2014, 06:07 AM
Or Constant Directivity.

Goophy
05-01-2014, 03:33 AM
Goophy, if you are reading this, how did you connect to the 1501fe-element, did you reach it from behind the speaker-terminals on the backside?

If you haven't done the same already.
I unscrewed the 1501fe and ran wires through one of the bass ports.

bubbleboy76
05-02-2014, 12:06 AM
If you haven't done the same already.
I unscrewed the 1501fe and ran wires through one of the bass ports.

Thanx, I finally got my measurement-rig working (DBX RTA-M mic, Focusrite 2i2 sound interface, Laptop with REW). So I will do the wiring tonight.

I added the DBX Driverack 260 to the signal-chain some days ago (still passive crossover, and only bypass in the 260). And I am a little bit disappointed with the "digital" sound it adds. Some naturalness is lost.

bubbleboy76
05-02-2014, 02:57 PM
I added the DBX Driverack 260 to the signal-chain some days ago (still passive crossover, and only bypass in the 260). And I am a little bit disappointed with the "digital" sound it adds. Some naturalness is lost.
I take this back, after more testing I must say the 260 is very transparent.

Did the wiring today. Now the experiments with the crossover will begin!

Mctwins
05-05-2014, 01:12 AM
I take this back, after more testing I must say the 260 is very transparent.

Did the wiring today. Now the experiments with the crossover will begin!

Hallo!

Glad that you took it back, I was thinking, what did he just write now. Didn't wanted to comment it before.

But, I still don't understand what you are trying to achive with the dbx260. Are you gonna remove the x-over in the speakers and use the 260 instead?

bubbleboy76
05-05-2014, 05:49 AM
Hallo!

Glad that you took it back, I was thinking, what did he just write now. Didn't wanted to comment it before.

But, I still don't understand what you are trying to achive with the dbx260. Are you gonna remove the x-over in the speakers and use the 260 instead?

I never tried active crossover before, thats why I do it, for the fun of it. I also want to try to voice the speaker a little bit warmer, if possible. I want it too sound more tonally like my 4429-center. The 4429 has a little darker sound, with more bottom in male voices for example.

I use the 260 as a active crossover and EQ, bypassing the internal crossover.
Bi-amp.
2-way (I skip the UHF).
The initial SPL-curve is much flatter when I close the bassports, and it plays much deeper. So maybe I will go for closed box.

Mctwins
05-06-2014, 01:33 AM
I never tried active crossover before, thats why I do it, for the fun of it. I also want to try to voice the speaker a little bit warmer, if possible. I want it too sound more tonally like my 4429-center. The 4429 has a little darker sound, with more bottom in male voices for example.

I use the 260 as a active crossover and EQ, bypassing the internal crossover.
Bi-amp.
2-way (I skip the UHF).
The initial SPL-curve is much flatter when I close the bassports, and it plays much deeper. So maybe I will go for closed box.

Ok, I understand about using the active x-over. Still don't understand why you remove the passive x-over in the speakers. You won't get any benificial improvment by removing the passive and trying to set an new settngs for the transducers with your own settings. You can use the prePEQ for setting the overall tone to your liking. I asume that you are bi-amping, you can still bi-amp the speakers with the 260 together with the passive x-over. My opinion, you are messing with the wrong speakers, a speaker that is allready tuned to perform the best. If you wan't to go with "true" bi-amping system then choose a speaker that dosen't have any passive x-overs, like the M2 or any other PA system.

I don't know how you are measureing to come to any conclusion for the best settings. If you are measurening in your room, then I say, good luck with that. You have to measure either in anechoic chamber or outdoor to set the x-over point and so on.

About your SPL curve and closed box, it has nothing to do with your speakers, it is all room dependent. You still don't know if the room modes is playing tricks for you here. This has to be measurerd (acoustic room measurement) and confirmed and treated before mixing with speakers x-over, closed-open bassports or bi-amping.

My 4429 has no dark sound.

I will hold my breath for the moment and see what you come up with.:)

bubbleboy76
05-15-2014, 10:13 AM
Ok, I understand about using the active x-over. Still don't understand why you remove the passive x-over in the speakers. You won't get any benificial improvment by removing the passive and trying to set an new settngs for the transducers with your own settings. You can use the prePEQ for setting the overall tone to your liking. I asume that you are bi-amping, you can still bi-amp the speakers with the 260 together with the passive x-over. My opinion, you are messing with the wrong speakers, a speaker that is allready tuned to perform the best. If you wan't to go with "true" bi-amping system then choose a speaker that dosen't have any passive x-overs, like the M2 or any other PA system.

I don't know how you are measureing to come to any conclusion for the best settings. If you are measurening in your room, then I say, good luck with that. You have to measure either in anechoic chamber or outdoor to set the x-over point and so on.

About your SPL curve and closed box, it has nothing to do with your speakers, it is all room dependent. You still don't know if the room modes is playing tricks for you here. This has to be measurerd (acoustic room measurement) and confirmed and treated before mixing with speakers x-over, closed-open bassports or bi-amping.

My 4429 has no dark sound.

I will hold my breath for the moment and see what you come up with.:)

You have a kind of negative approach, but thanks for the input anyway :)
I agree to some of what you are saying, in theory. In practice though, for my case, I am sorry to say that you are plain wrong! The sound now with the active crossover is many many times better than before (subjectively to me). It is not an small improvement. I can not see that I will go to plan B (passive x-over and only prePEQ for setting tone) at the moment.
4365 is voiced for the Japanese market, and is sounding a bit to bright to me out-of-the-box. Very different to 4429, as I wrote before.
I have the voltage-drive diagram and anechoic chamber measurements from the original 4365. So I can mimic that voltage drive pretty much exactly, if I should want to.
I will post settings and measurements later on.
I did not say 4429 has dark sound. You misinterpreted what I wrote.
I do not care how the speaker sounds in an anechoic chamber. I care how it sounds in my listening position! I know room acoustics plays a big part, and now I will tame some of that "for free" with this dsp-solution. I only reduce gain with PEQ in lower regions, not trying to add power to cancellations.
When I measure for crossover settings, I do it from 1m with the speaker as far away from wall as possible. I know this is not optimal, but the best I can do for now.
It is very funny to experiment with crossover-Hz, slopes and so on, and hear the differences it makes. Right now I am on Linkwitz-Riley 24Db at 820Hz, that sounds subjectively best to me. I know Goophy ended up at 850Hz. The standard crossover is at 750Hz, with a not so steep slope.