Shure V15 VMR ... busted cantilever

[grumpy]

:banghead:

Anyone had experience with JICO, for replacement stylii?

http://www.export-japan.com/marketing/stylus/product_info.php?products_id=1522

[jcrobso]

Years ago my young daughter broke the stylus on my new Sure M55E.
I took all the stylus parts to Shure and they gave me a new one for $15.
Maybe you can contact Shure and send them the pieces and for a reasonably fee the will send you a replacement.
In recent years I have taken them broken wireless mics and Shure has been very reasonable in the repair cost.

[Mr. Widget]

Last I heard, Shure was still making replacement styli for the V15 Series.


Widget

[grumpy]

Ah. The VN5MR stylii -had- been discontinued, then later the VN5xMR.

I've contacted Shure's service dept. to make ...uh, sure.
They have stated that they will reply to me, tomorrow.

Thanks!

[grumpy]

Official Shure service department response (at least it was a nice/fast turnaround):
The VN5MR stylii -remains- discontinued, as does the VN5xMR. Crrrrrap.

Looks like the JICO equivalent stylus at $120 might be worth a try... or
the Benz-Micro or Dynavector folks this weekend :)

[grumpy]

1) Found an old Sony headshell and Shure M95ED cart in working condition
(listenable, but just a band-aid for now)

2) AT-OC9ML/II at under $350 seems like a worthwhile contender for more "critical"
listening and that something like a Dynavector Karat (at 3x $) is probably "right out"

To be used with: Technics SL-1210 MKII, Audio Research PH3-SE

I'm not firing on this today; any comments good/bad/alternatives would be fine.

Thanks... and no need to bash the Technics... I understand it's limitations, possible
upgrades, etc... it'll stay at least until the kids are out of the house (mostly).

[10 Watt Street]

Take a look at the Shure M97xe, it is essentially the V15 Type V with an aluminum shank rather than the beryllium. Also very affordable.

http://www.shure.com/americas/products/phono/m97xe-audiophile-phono-cartridge

[grumpy]

Thanks Mr. Street. I value your input.

I'll probably get that one anyway, ... to leave in the tonearm while I'm not at home :D

Actually, I've also heard good things about it, especially in that price range.
If Shure would sell it with the micro-ridge "Namiki" diamond (M97xE is elliptical), I'd have it
already and that would probably be the end of it.

For my personal usage, I'd like to move -up- from the VMR... or at least not lose
any ground.

[10 Watt Street]

The Audio Technica AT440MLa gets the MicroLine stylus at an affordable price.

If possible, go for a DynaVector overall! It will get along well with your ARC phono stage.

[grumpy]

M97xE showed up yesterday $59 shipped from JR. An inexpensive experiment.

A day later... after setting up overhang, tracking force, anti-skating, VTA (increasing this
helped a bit), and a very minor azimuth tweak (can only do so much with the Technics
arm without going to something like the Sumiko headshell, fortunately the amount of
rotation available was sufficient).

Personal judgment: It "ain't no" VMR, but I guess if they were still built they'd probably
be close to 10x the price. I can enjoy the music, and it's quiet (i.e., did not exaggerate
surface noise) but I'm not entranced... it's not involving the way the V15-VMR was.
meh. Maybe it will "break-in" further or I may play with VTA and tracking force some
more. I wouldn't expect an elliptical stylus to be as sensitive to VTA as a line-contact type,
but whatever.

If my opinion changes, I'll repost.

[macaroonie]

You should go MC ........... ask me why

[grumpy]

Hey Mac, why should I consider sticking an MC under my headshell?
(he says, already well along that path and needing no further persuasion ;))

[Hoerninger]

You should go MC ...
I do second this. :yes:
____________
Peter

[macaroonie]

Hey Mac, why should I consider sticking an MC under my headshell?
(he says, already well along that path and needing no further persuasion ;))

Seems to me that the preoccupation with tracking ability and high compliance ( Shure Pickering AT Signet Ortofon et al ) comes with the promise of instability in use. Of course there are those silly little brush dampers and other doo dads meant to keep things under control , but when the arm / cart assembly starts to wiggle tracking is out the window , fine line diamond or not.
In my time i have set up literraly thousands of high end turntables and frankly MM pickups just do not cut it these days.
The MC manufacturers have moved far in compliance design and also in micro coil winding so the old drawbacks really do not exist any more. However the big plus point is that the MC generator output is closer to what was cut because the generator system is inherently more linear. ( Relatively strong magnetic field , small coil moving around in that field ) Result is the more immediate character that comes with MC use. That comment is not about brightness or anything like that it refers to liveliness or lifelike qualities. From this then comes enhanced imaging .
I take it we are all here because of a liking for speakers that have also a character that aims to be lifelike in response and dynamics , and we are all aware of how JBL have achieved this. Same goes for cartridges , they are just smaller and easily overlooked.

Now having said all that there are some truly hideous MC carts and some scary prices also so of course let the buyer beware.

In general if you need a step up I would advise using a transformer , less noise.

If you are using the stock arm on that Technics you may have difficulty with some of the heavier MC's causing the counterweight to end up well back on the arm stub. I always advocate getting the CW as close to the pivot as possible , so that might mean some form of ballast weight. Some arms have this anyway.

Denons sound good with JBL without breaking the bank ( IMHO )

Hope that helps :dont-know:

[grumpy]

Thanks Mac. Appreciate the time that took and sharing your experience. I think KAB has heavier weights for stock arms, to bring that mass
back toward the pivot.

[macaroonie]

You are most welcome. Footnote , some of those ' audiophile 'step up transformers can cost an arm and a leg , for us cheapo sorts there is a way out. Have a hunt for microphone step up trannies like are used in mixing desks. This link gives some useful info http://www.sowter.co.uk/phono-cartridge-transformers.php Slap em into a nice screened box and you are good to go.

I forgot to mention Grado ,,, something of an oddball and not the easiest to get the best out of but on a good day they can be marvelous. Most likely not a good match with your stock arm.
They used to have a cheapie that performed way beyond its £20 price tag but wierdly there were about half a dozen models on the way up the scale that did not really seem much better and then bang in comes the noticably good unit at about £200 ( sorry cant remember the model codes )

Ask Seawolf about his Denon

[SEAWOLF97]

Ask Seawolf about his Denon

The Denon DL-103 (on Macs recommendation) with the Denon transformer is the best that my TT has sounded....grew up with a V-15/T3 that is prolly a little fuller tho less detailed.

There are some great deals on DL-103's (new) on eBay ....in the $160 range..the seller from Spain was very good.

[Hoerninger]

Have a hunt for microphone step up trannies like are used in mixing desks. This link gives some useful info http://www.sowter.co.uk/phono-cartridge-transformers.php Slap em into a nice screened box and you are good to go.

:thmbsup:
Physics instead of voodoo, I like it.
____________
Peter :)

[macaroonie]

The Denon DL-103 (on Macs recommendation) with the Denon transformer is the best that my TT has sounded....grew up with a V-15/T3 that is prolly a little fuller tho less detailed.

There are some great deals on DL-103's (new) on eBay ....in the $160 range..the seller from Spain was very good.

Hi Tom , hope you are well , worth mentioning of course that the DL103 has a conical stylus. Go figure. Dl103R is getting some glowing press but it will be $300 plus

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frr.pl?ranlg&1034089946

[Wagner]

M97xE showed up yesterday $59 shipped from JR. An inexpensive experiment.

A day later... after setting up overhang, tracking force, anti-skating, VTA (increasing this
helped a bit), and a very minor azimuth tweak (can only do so much with the Technics
arm without going to something like the Sumiko headshell, fortunately the amount of
rotation available was sufficient).

Personal judgment: It "ain't no" VMR, but I guess if they were still built they'd probably
be close to 10x the price. I can enjoy the music, and it's quiet (i.e., did not exaggerate
surface noise) but I'm not entranced... it's not involving the way the V15-VMR was.
meh. Maybe it will "break-in" further or I may play with VTA and tracking force some
more. I wouldn't expect an elliptical stylus to be as sensitive to VTA as a line-contact type,
but whatever.

If my opinion changes, I'll repost.

..........you'll be in for a very pleasant surprise.

Try loading (if you are able with your phono stage) that M97xE down around 62K before you give up on it.

You may be in for an even BIGGER surprise.

Thomas

[Wagner]

Seems to me that the preoccupation with tracking ability and high compliance ( Shure Pickering AT Signet Ortofon et al ) comes with the promise of instability in use. Of course there are those silly little brush dampers and other doo dads meant to keep things under control , but when the arm / cart assembly starts to wiggle tracking is out the window , fine line diamond or not.
In my time i have set up literraly thousands of high end turntables and frankly MM pickups just do not cut it these days.:

Just not true my friend. And I run both, MM and MC.

Moving magnets have many positive attributes over moving coils and should be given serious consideration by all but the most committed.

And those whose records have NO pot holes. ;)

Thomas

[SEAWOLF97]

OK..sometimes I'm a little slow and dont always get it right first time, BUT I do stay after it and eventually things get to their performancer zenith..

have been re-enjoying vinyl for about a year now...before getting separates, the phono gets plugged into the right jack, tf & as get set and thats it. (pretty much what I'd done with the Apt/Holman preamp - still on defaults) .... So today I run across the manual again and there is a supplement called "PHONO INPUT IMPEDIANCE MATCHING" ..sounds like a fun read, so I give it a go...

well, you go to the tables of tone arm and cable capacitance ..then note your values..then go to the tables of cartridge load requirements ( load resistance in ohms & load capacitance in pF) note values ,,do a little math and set into the preamp...

WOW !!! what a difference !! I thot it all sounded fine before , but now....I put on the same vinyl that I'm used to and it sounds waayyy better....the missing bass has returned...I bypassed the EQ and turned off tone controls and it sounded great !!
Deeper bass , crisp highs and the mids just right..

If any of you have an Apt or similar preamp but dont have access to the value tables, give me a PM and can look them up ..really made a BIG difference. :applaud:

these settings make a big difference over just hooking to a generic MM port

[Wagner]

In my time i have set up literraly thousands of high end turntables:

I'm sorry, but I really have to take issue with, and make note of, a statement as preposterous and obviously :bs: as this one.

Incredible :(

Thomas

[macaroonie]

It maybe did not occur to you that there are people here who have had a professional involvement with Hi Fi. I was 25 years and pretty much specialised in turntables and have been inside pretty much all of them at one time or another. I also worked at Linn and Ariston
Do your math , twenty decks in a week would be normal so there is a thousand in the first year. Nuf said ?

Perhaps you would like to qualify your statement re MM carts other than making a bald assertion.

Out.

[grumpy]

I appreciate your thoughts and sentiments, gentlemen.

Emotive responses are unnecessary.

FWIW, with the current catridge (M97xE) my phono pre is set for a max of
47K (can be dropped to 80 ohms), and internally 90pF (+ stock Technics
cable and tonearm wiring, ... another 100pF).

Cartridge optimum load (re Shure) is 47K and 200-300pF, so I think I'm good there.
Thanks for the reminder to check, Seawolf.

Found a Shure tracking/resonance test record at home yesterday... so I'll play
with that later, re arm-mass/cartridge-compliance interaction.

[SEAWOLF97]

Grumpy...did you ever get the replacement V-15 stylus ??

My V-15T3 is going to need one soon (still on its original 1973 stylus) ...and the options are a bit confusing..

there is the JICO VN35 and the VN35SAS
http://stylus.export-japan.com/sas.php
http://stylus.export-japan.com/product_info.php?cPath=18&products_id=1044

have no idea if the SAS is worth extra money

also found this:
http://www.edsaunders.com/shurereview.htm

Ed Saunders Aftermarket Replacement Stylus for Shure V-15 Type III

has anyone been down this road and have some experience to share ??

[grumpy]

I did not. If I do, it would be the SAS profile though,
as it seems to be more similar to the stock VMR profile,
which worked really well in my system.
I listened to the M97xE again a few days ago and my
opinion hasn't changed.

[SEAWOLF97]

I did not. If I do, it would be the SAS profile though,
as it seems to be more similar to the stock VMR profile,
which worked really well in my system.
I listened to the M97xE again a few days ago and my
opinion hasn't changed.

DAve ..your well considered opinions are always valuable .... I had believed that the M97xe was an update of the M95ed ...which wasnt too bad

have never replaced the original 1973 V15 stylus as it still sounds very fine, and has seen moderate use ...it was OEM on my dual 701 TT.



I'm sorry, but I really have to take issue with, and make note of, a statement as preposterous and obviously :bs: as this one.

Incredible :(

Thomas

Thomas...I've had a hand in this stuff since 1964 ...friends come to me for advice , but I dont have all the answers ...so I come to the forum ....our UK cousins , Mac and Rich always have great answers based on years of experience ...I have followed their guidance and never regretted it....methinks that in retrospect you should modify that quoted statement to better reflect reality.

[SEAWOLF97]

well the original stylus on my V-15T3 has finally worn out (and its only 37 years old :( ) , I did a lot of homework last night and tried to decide between the Jico and the Ed Saunders replacement..

http://www.edsaunders.com/shurestylus.htm

http://www.edsaunders.com/shurereview.htm

I can get the ES on eBay and use PP , so ready to jump that direction, (hope it isn't a case of false economy) :dont-know:

[Mr. Widget]

Want a V15 VXMR with far less than 100 hours on it for $100?

I bought it to check it out... nice, but I am more of a low output MC type.

Widget

[SEAWOLF97]

Want a V15 VXMR with far less than 100 hours on it for $100?

I bought it to check it out... nice, but I am more of a low output MC type.

Widget

I picked up this cart from Mr. W , and got it installed this AM ....on the DP-60L it is a fantastic combo .....pulled off the headshell with the V15-T3 (which I thot was heavier) and stuck on the V type and it didnt need re balancing. Have "Brothers in Arms" going right now and its about as good as any TT of mine has ever sounded ...

was very surprised at the "DeLuxeness" of the kit...:bouncy:.

[SEAWOLF97]

so yesterday was busy, but I wanted to get the new cart mounted...

I wired it up , mounted in head shell, set VTA/VTF AS , squared it up in the shell and gave a listen ......sounded GREAT on the outer tracks , but sucked on the inner :eek:

Got up today , determined to fix the issue ...remembered that it said somewhere that when correctly mounted , that the cart may NOT seem square to the shell ... in desperation I read the instructions.

The top alignment plate has a molded holder (top right in above foto) where the cart snaps in for shipment ....you use that same holder to align it.. insert supplied rubber wedges between the platter and edge to demobilize, remove stylus , slightly loosen the head screws (while head is on the arm and cart in the holder) , and insert alignment plate hole onto spindle , that moves cart & corrects alignment for inner tracks...then move plate so that the curved leftmost slot is over the spindle, and that corrects for outer alignment. Cinch the screws back down , insert stylus and check it out.

Wow , great sound through the entire disk .... a worthy upgrade ...:applaud::applaud::applaud:

[SEAWOLF97]

now that I've got the new cart sounding right on the Denon , decided to move the AudioTechnica 6002 DustBug clone over from a Tech TT ....but because of the saucer around the platter on the DL-60L , the AT arm isnt long enough to advance with record progression.

found my original Watts Dust Bug, but only the arm...base is MIA.

started doing a little homework on alternatives and decided on a TONAR arm . these run $25-50 on the web...its a rather unique design,,,the base shaft is height adjustable, the collar that balances on the tip has a cut out on the bottom so it moves freely in X & Y ...weighted base has a grounding line to minimize static and the carbon fiber brush has very small copper filaments to pull a charge off the vinyl ...then on the arm there is a sliding weight to set the exact downward force that you want .... instructions are in US, French & German , tho I suspect its made in Ch1na , but pretty good quality.

The package on mine says "REK-O-KUT" ...if this is what you need , the seller gearmania (http://myworld.ebay.com/gearmania/) has them brand new for $19.99

http://cgi.ebay.com/Brand-New-Dust-Bug-Dust-and-Static-Cleaner-LPs-/290560821616?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a6c64970

no relation to seller, but delivery was sure quick :D

[brutal]

I picked up this cart from Mr. W , and got it installed this AM ....on the DP-60L it is a fantastic combo .....pulled off the headshell with the V15-T3 (which I thot was heavier) and stuck on the V type and it didnt need re balancing. Have "Brothers in Arms" going right now and its about as good as any TT of mine has ever sounded ...

was very surprised at the "DeLuxeness" of the kit...:bouncy:.

:eek:

If you ever decide to part with that V15, put me in line. :applaud:

[SEAWOLF97]

If you are using the stock arm on that Technics you may have difficulty with some of the heavier MC's causing the counterweight to end up well back on the arm stub. I always advocate getting the CW as close to the pivot as possible , so that might mean some form of ballast weight. Some arms have this anyway.


I recently acquired a V-15 V and set about mounting it on the Denon DP-60L ....the Denon came with both straight and S shaped arms .....this V-15 is very light and in the S arm it sounded great , BUT , the owners manual said that it would be even better in the straight arm. I decided to switch it to the other arm.

got it all dialed in ...switched counter weights from the heavier S arm one to the lighter straight arm one and ..OH CRAP ...no matter where I put the weight ..its was too much...if I took the weight completely off , but left just its sleeve on, it would balance to 1.5g

So broke down yesterday and went digging thru the TT paraphernalia box..did find a 2g and 1.5g weight that would fit under that little head on the straight arm ....so with 3.5g added to the head, I can now put the counter weight back on and balance to 1.2g VTF ...but as Mac mentioned, "I always advocate getting the CW as close to the pivot as possible " ....its within 1/4 inch of the remaining adjustment space to the pivot now..:o:

[grumpy]

If it sounds better that way, great. I don't recall if that Denon is one that has the
active 'servo-tracer' or whatever it was called to try to dampen arm resonances,
but there are rules of thumb for setting up resonant frequencies
for arm/cartridge combinations, and test records (as well as experienced turntable
setter-uppers...[Mac :)]) to help determine them. Most of the turntable setup guides
completely ignore this and assume a decent cartridge compliance/effective arm mass
pairing.

Ah, this might help:
http://www.resfreq.com/resonancecalculator.html