Tale of two Vertecs @ Woodstock

[robertbartsch]

We went to see Yes and Peter Frampton at a 10,000 seat outdoor theater in Bethel NY - formerly known as Woodstock. The flown system had 10 Vertecs per side and stage mounted subs. The 8 sub cabs looked like 18s x 2

We sat near the sound engineers and there were two control boards. One board was for Frampton and the other board was for Yes and each act had a different sound engineer but, other than that, the SR system was identicle.

Anyway, Frampton's sound was very clean, had great dynamics with great clear vocals. The Yes sound was overbearing, too much bass and the vocals could not be heard or understood. One obvious issue was that the system was being driven beyond its capabilities for Yes.

So what can we conclude from this?

* Sound engineers are very important for a good experience
* Even outdoor stages (covered seating but no walls) can produce crudy results
* Vertecs are very capable if run correctly
* Boards can make a difference?

[robertbartsch]

...one other thing.

Frampton said all his equipment was lost in the Tenn flood two weeks prior - so his crew was working with all new stuff. I'm not sure what that meant but maybe the board they were working with was a new digital board????

Anyway, the Frampton sound was far superior to the YES sound. In the picture above, the YES board was less than half the size of the Frampton board.

[boputnam]

In the picture above, the YES board was less than half the size of the Frampton board.The larger format analogue console is the Midas XL4 - granddaddy of warmth, and monster weight! They do sound great.

The YES console, looks like a DigiDesign Venue - a great sounding, very versatile desk.

Certainly engineers do make a difference, even on the same system. Since there were two of each, it is hard/impossible to make meaningful comment. I can say that at festivals (and even at venues) I often get lauds for our mix - "best of the weekend" / "best I've heard this venue sound", sort of things, so different engineers can certainly get very different results even using the same system. For me, part of that is lower SPL (that is appreciated by most) as things are less bad sounding when driven less hard.

However, I am not sure the hang is Vertec? I've never seen one with a scrim on the front. But, I cannot a good close-up view...

[clmrt]

Not enough subs. I'll be gigging Peter in a few weeks, we'll see what Martin Audio sounds like.

[Maron Horonzakz]

Sometimes after the engineer sets the levels,,you need to shoot the engineer,,,to keep him from fucking up the performance.

[boputnam]

Sometimes after the engineer sets the levels,,you need to shoot the engineer,,,to keep him from fucking up the performance.Ah, I'll for sure keep my head down! :duck:

[robertbartsch]

The engineer was setting near us and I can't understand his actions since others in the audience said the same thing; YES system was overdriven and too loud, bass was overbearing, vocals were very bad; Frampton sound was much better.

[Oldmics]

Sometimes after the engineer sets the levels,,you need to shoot the engineer,,,to keep him from fucking up the performance.

I recommend a "stunt double".

Hell all of us sound men look alike anyways-Ponytail (usually greying),confused look on face,miracle ear(s)
;)

Oldmics

[boputnam]

...miracle ear(s)
;)
+1

Hey, Oldmics... What you think them flown cabs are? I'm not sure. They don't look JBL to me.

Got an XL4 in your back pocket!!??? :rotfl: Hoping the festival season's keeping your life scrambled...

[Tim Rinkerman]

The flying cabinets are L-Acoustic V-dosc line arrays..I can't think of the name of the audio vendor for that venue..it used to be Audio 300, but that's who provided the stacks and racks.
My company, North American Theatrix provided all the in house A/V systems during construction of Bethel Woods, the venue you were at. I built and flew the lawn coverage system. There's an EAW 750 and 755 in each of the 10 weatherproof enclosures, all powered by QSC. We also provided A/V for the small theatre in the Woodstock museum.
It's ALWAYS the sound guy's fault...I've heard a million mixes in my 40+ years in the business. I've heard garbage systems sound like a well produced record, and I've heard state of the art systems sound like they were blown up....I can't really think of any time I couldn't credit or fault anything but the guy behind the board.....I've spent enough time behind a board to argue this one into the dirt..

[Triumph Don]

Both will be playing this Sunday about 2 miles from my home. Big Yes fan back in the day, Frampton not. Funny thing though, Peter F has a home in Cincinnati [a real nice one] next door to one of my son's runni'n buddies. Got all the passes, should be fun.

[boputnam]

The flying cabinets are L-Acoustic V-dosc line arrays... Tim, I thought that first - V-DOSC with dV-DOSC beneath for near-fills. But, I couldn't get a good image showing the rollerboard mounts on each side of the V-DOSC, and none seem to have the tell-tale logo imbed into the foam scrim. Thanks for clearing it up. That is my favorite line-array - great sounding at both lo and hi SPL, and in all genre's. Something I cannot say about competing products...


Anyway, if that's the case, even with a Venue console (as contrasted to the XL4 :bouncy:), they should have sounded perfect.

[Tim Rinkerman]

I'll share a personal observation with you all....I found it to be true because I found myself doing it. When you spend enough time mixing loud acts, or try to make quiet acts loud, you tend to set your ears in a "defensive" mode....you kind of get ready for the next loud thing coming at you...kind of like wincing when yo know something big is going to happen in front of you...like waiting for a fire cracker to go off. It really affects the response curve of your ear, it seem your ear canal tightens up a bit, the bass is all wrong. Anyway, when you mix the same act over and over, you tend to forget about it, and be on your way. The end result is the audience is relaxed waiting for the show to start, and the FOH guy already has his aural defenses in place. Take a look at the next sound guy at a concert that sounds bad. Is he sitting there attentive and relaxed, or do his facial expressions make you think he's dodging bullets?
I found the same to be true in a slightly different respect with performers and loud monitors. After an extended length of hearing the same thing night after night, a performer becomes deaf to his own voice or instrument...kind of like repeating the same word many times in a row...it doesn't sound like the same word anymore. It's not that it isn't loud enough, they just aren't hearing it anymore.

[mikebake]

I think you are onto something there.

[JBL 4645]

I assume this is that same connect (Peter Frampton, 2010, Bethel Woods)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA7lrkbxtgI

Too bad the audio is low distortion quality on cheep camera phone with (mono sound) frequency response from 160Hz to 8KHz the JBL PA sound system just overloads the audio from what looks like 25 meters away?

[Triumph Don]

...one other thing.

Frampton said all his equipment was lost in the Tenn flood two weeks prior - so his crew was working with all new stuff. I'm not sure what that meant but maybe the board they were working with was a new digital board????

Anyway, the Frampton sound was far superior to the YES sound. In the picture above, the YES board was less than half the size of the Frampton board.

After the Yes/Frampton show on the 4th, I had the same impressions. Except at this show, the Yes vocals were superb. Bass was overbearing. Funny thing, just listened to several of the Yes songs played at the show on the old Thorens, and that's how it sounded back in the day! If the engineers were trying to replicate the original sound [not a bad idea] I'd say they were close to spot on. Amazing that Anderson guy can still sound like that.

[Robh3606]

Amazing that Anderson guy can still sound like that.

He is not on this tour. They have a stand in.

Rob:)

[hjames]

He is not on this tour. They have a stand in.

Rob:)

Well, we saw Yes on Tour a couple years ago, and Jon Anderson CAN still sing like that - its frightening the notes he can hit at his age!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Anderson

But according to the lineup, they have Bennoit David for Anderson, and OLIVER Wakeman (son of Chris, born 1972) - on this tour ... hmm - first time I saw Yes was in '73 and his FATHER was the keyboardist!

[Robh3606]

Well, we saw Yes on Tour a couple years ago, and Jon Anderson CAN still sing like that - its frightening the notes he can hit at his age!


Well I wasn't debating if he COULD SING or not. I have seen them at least 10 times going back to Close to the Edge saw them for Drama, no Anderson and so on. He is having health issues like he did in 2008 so if you see Yes on this tour it's without him because of them. As far as I can tell from his post his frame of reference was the show he just saw without him.

Rob:)

[robertbartsch]

....the lead vocal for Yes at Bethel Woods (woodstock) was a young stand-in who was unable to hit the high notes. In this case, it did not matter too much since the vocals were not clear anyway.

Saw Anderson from Tull the week before at Jones Beach - this guy is unbelievable at 70 something. Sound system there was L-Accoustics but we were sitting four rows back on one side and I was unable to judge the system from our seats. In that venue the sub bass cabs were small so I would say the drivers were no biger then 12"s or maybe 15"s. The bass was not chest pounding but not overdriven either.

[robertbartsch]

My wife and i went to see Santana and Stevie Winwood at PNC Arts Center in NJ. It was a forum nearly identicle to the Woodstock arena.

ANyway, the sound stage was bigger than Yes with four stacks of L-Acoustics and +40 stage amps and the same board used by Yes.

The vocals were pretty bad. Carlos spoke several times while no music was playing and I could not hear a single word. It sounded like he was talking with marbles in his mouth in a reverb chamber. Dido for Stevie.

We sat near the board about 30 rows back. We have heard a few very good concerts at this areana so it is confusing why the engineers got it so WRONG???

[hjames]

My wife and i went to see Santana and Stevie Winwood at PNC Arts Center in NJ.

The vocals were pretty bad. Carlos spoke several times while no music was playing and I could not hear a single word. It sounded like he was talking with marbles in his mouth in a reverb chamber. Dido for Stevie.

We sat near the board about 30 rows back. We have heard a few very good concerts at this areana so it is confusing why the engineers got it so WRONG???

yeah, there is a reason we wind up buying concert DVDs these days instead of going to bum shows in too crowded and hot outdoor venues, performing with "sweetener tracks" and seeing aging acts with attitudes.

Concerts are too hit or miss and too expensive for such results.

If I can't catch an artist in a really small venue, I'm really not interested anymore.

[robertbartsch]

I stopped going to see shows in big indoor arenas because the sound is terrible. We will only go to outdoor things with no walls to bouce sound from. Indoor theaters are limited to Radio City and the Beckman.

When Carlos was talking to the crowd and no one could understand a word he was saying, I kept thinking about the sound engineeer behind the board.

ARE YOU DEAF MAN; CARLOS SANTANA IS SPEAKING AND YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND A WORD? PLEASE FIX YOUR CRAPPIE MIX. YOUR EQUIPMENT AND THE FORUM ARE STATE-OF-THE-ART AND YOU ARE A DUMMIE!

[jcrobso]

I recommend a "stunt double".

Hell all of us sound men look alike anyways-Ponytail (usually greying),confused look on face,miracle ear(s)
;)

Oldmics

But I do have graying hair!:bouncy: The confused look is just a cover, we really know what we are doing ,most of the time!;)

[Oldmics]

we really know what we are doing ,most of the time!;)

They will expect more from us if this gets out :crying:

Oldmics

[Tim Rinkerman]

I'll share a personal observation with you all....I found it to be true because I found myself doing it. When you spend enough time mixing loud acts, or try to make quiet acts loud, you tend to set your ears in a "defensive" mode....you kind of get ready for the next loud thing coming at you...kind of like wincing when yo know something big is going to happen in front of you...like waiting for a fire cracker to go off. It really affects the response curve of your ear, it seem your ear canal tightens up a bit, the bass is all wrong. Anyway, when you mix the same act over and over, you tend to forget about it, and be on your way. The end result is the audience is relaxed waiting for the show to start, and the FOH guy already has his aural defenses in place. Take a look at the next sound guy at a concert that sounds bad. Is he sitting there attentive and relaxed, or do his facial expressions make you think he's dodging bullets?
I found the same to be true in a slightly different respect with performers and loud monitors. After an extended length of hearing the same thing night after night, a performer becomes deaf to his own voice or instrument...kind of like repeating the same word many times in a row...it doesn't sound like the same word anymore. It's not that it isn't loud enough, they just aren't hearing it anymore.
Some guy's mix by what it sounds like..others mix by how many led ladders they can make go up and down.....
Shall I tell you a story from my sound reinforcement days..when I used to take truckloads of "rider filler" processing gear to all who requested it. This particular fellow ABSOLUTELY needed, DEMANDED a PM-3000 to mix his show...(15 years ago...)plus 8 gates, and 8 comp/limiters all to be inserted on critical inputs, along with 4 astrodomes worth of reverbs. Well, I inserted all his critical devices where they had to be, he spent several hours tweeking every gain,ratio, and level knob on everything till it weas just right...all the lights were flashing properly..he had perfected his well controlled mix. Remember, this guy NEEDED a PM-3000 because he was so familiar with it...I happened to look at the board during the sound check and realized he hadn't pressed any of the "insert" buttons...yep, everything was flashing, and doing nothing....all the while telling me why a limiter was so critical to his bass sound, and "I have to have a limiter on that singer because he shout's alot"..
Some day I'll tell you the story about the famous sound guy who needed 5 reverbs for a piano,bass and drums jazz trio........

[Oldmics]

{Quote: along with 4 astrodomes worth of reverbs. }

Priceless :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:




I happened to look at the board during the sound check and realized he hadn't pressed any of the "insert" buttons...yep, everything was flashing, and doing nothing....

I"ve worked with those ;)


Some day I'll tell you the story about the famous sound guy who needed 5 reverbs for a piano,bass and drums jazz trio........

Its a spacial thing-requires lots of digital confusion and O.K. I dont know what I"m talkin about.:crying:


Oldmics

[robertbartsch]

Are sound engineers licenced; where do they learn their trade?

A few years ago, I attended some concerts where the sound never got about 90DB and it was not like being at a normal event.

In retorspect, the sound was very good but just not loud.

The old concerts of the 1970s had very different equipment. The typical system was 24 or so bass loaded horns, 12 or so large format compression drivers w/ horns and 24 or so Crown DC-300s. In general, the sound was as good or not better than any of the 24 or so concerts I have seen in the last 4 years.

I assume the technology for sound reinforcement has advanced considerably, but "people" can still screw it up. Carlos Santana's sound engineer is just one example.

[Tim Rinkerman]

I had to stand alongside more house mixers that really didn't care one way or another about the act they were mixing than I care to think about..they can talk the talk, give you the model number of the newest, coolest toy, but don't know the difference between a 3 part harmony and a 3 piece suit. Many of them seem to come in in the morning telling you how boring this part is, and how they can't stand a certain section....I don't think it's your place to judge, dude...you are there to give the audience a fair and even representation of what is going on onstage.
It's sometimes interesting to guess what kind of frustrated musician the house mixer is...the loudest instruments are usually the ones he wished he played as well as the guy in the band.........

[Oldmics]

Are sound engineers licenced; where do they learn their trade?

Licenses ??? We Don"t Need NO Steekin Licenses :applaud:

__________________________________________________ ____________________________________



It's sometimes interesting to guess what kind of frustrated musician the house mixer is...the loudest instruments are usually the ones he wished he played as well as the guy in the band.........

Excellent observation - I do find that for rock music drummers make the best transition into sound techs

Tim,you and I could swap some great stories I bet.

Oldmics

[robertbartsch]

I use vocals as a good test of the mix. Crosby, Stills, Nash was an event at Woodstock in 2008 that had an excellent mix. The system was small by comparision; 12 x 2 of very smallish L-acoustics flown; 4 x 2 bass cabs on stage and 12 x 2 SR amps.

I could hear every word of every song - electric and acoustic licks. They played with vintage Fender and Marshall stage amps miked.

If the sound engineer could acheive this without a huge system, I assume that other engineers who are able to work with a larger system but produce only garbled noise are just lost-in-space.

[Tim Rinkerman]

"Tim,you and I could swap some great stories I bet."
I suppose we could start a "War Stories" thread....:D
Alot of sound guy's get it in their head that a certain instrument has to sound a certain way..weather it fits the song or music doesn't matter to them...I have heard many guitar solos treated as "solo guitar" to the point that the rest of the band is inaudible.

"If the sound engineer could acheive this without a huge system, I assume that other engineers who are able to work with a larger system but produce only garbled noise are just lost-in-space."

It all depends on what you are listening to/for what...you want to get an even tonal response from every input to get a proper musical balance..all parts of all instruments ( voices are instruments) heard equally. PA systems are only tools..some mechanics reach for a hammer first, others listen to the entire assembly to determine which part needs fixing first. How many times do you watch the guy spend half the night referring back to a set of headphones?
Alot of guys won't accept the fact that they have to come to a happy medium between what the band is doing, what the PA can do, and what the venue is doing to all of it. You have to have a "sonic image" in your mind to work towards...
Oldmic's...how many bands did you work with that brought out their "studio engineer/producer" to mix the show, because they were "familiar with the music"? I quickly found out that studio guys were hands down the worst at trying to mix a live show. On the opposite foot is the reason I never wanted to work in a studio....Live, you have to get it, and get it good the first time. A good live performance is fleeting magic...the band builds energy from the crowd, thing happen that wouldn't (couldn't) happen in a studio. A studio performance will NEVER hold a candle to a good live performance.
I'll be quiet now...I'm going on like a Kathy Mattea encore....

[Oldmics]

Oldmic's...how many bands did you work with that brought out their "studio engineer/producer" to mix the show, because they were "familiar with the music"? I quickly found out that studio guys were hands down the worst at trying to mix a live show. On the opposite foot is the reason I never wanted to work in a studio....Live, you have to get it, and get it good the first time. A good live performance is fleeting magic...the band builds energy from the crowd, thing happen that wouldn't (couldn't) happen in a studio. A studio performance will NEVER hold a candle to a good live performance.


There has been more studio experts that attempted to mix a live show than I care to remember.

I guess without pause,protools and rewind it usually does not lead into an enjoyable sonic event.

"A good live performance is fleeting magic..."

and sadly next to no one knows you were an integeral part of it. :dont-know:

Oldmics-been there and probably will go back !

[clmrt]

Well, worked the Frampton gig last night. We used our usual W8LC Martin lines in a 2000 seat room. Bottom end was 4x WSX, 18" folded horns per side, power by Crest, 9001's and related.

102-103db at the desk, clean and wide open feel to it. The engineer had it dialed, great work in a big shoebox conference room setting. Maybe 200x80x30 ft.

Pete had all new gear due to his losses from the floods in TN.

Sorry, no pics. Cam batt died...

[robertbartsch]

What exactly happened to the equipment in the TN floods?

So this stuff was in a truck and the truck floated away? What was lost; amps, guitars, drums, PA, board?

They were traveling with Yes; did the Yes stuff get lost too?

[clmrt]

Not sure exactly - They were set up for rehearsal in an Air Force hangar and overnight the flood waters crept in and ruined the gear that was in place. I know he had all new Marshall cabinets, effect racks and pedal boards, cables...He told the crowd about it and that's how I learned, actually. The guitar tech, Rick, didn't mention it. Much of the gear was new but in old road cases.

[clmrt]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126776761

[robertbartsch]

That SUKs.

With hindsight, it seems dumb to store muscial instruments and equipment in a flood zone. The insurance people must have known this was volnerable. If not they know it now.

[Oldmics]

, power by Crest, 9001's and related :yes::yes::yes:

Wouldnt know what to do without mine!

Oldmics

[boputnam]

Sorry to have missed all this - been out doing it...

Tim - you raised a lot of issues, some agreed, some not. I run into many band engineers (BE's) on the road, and I can say that to a person, few are bored, and all are working really hard. Speaking only for me, every show is just as exciting as the first, and I have high expectations of my ability to get it right, quickly, and at lowest SPL possible so that the fans are happy. My eyes are glued to stage - I hate missing even one cue. With high SPL stage wash, I bring down the vox bus (or DCA) about -6 to -10 dB between singing, to clean-up the mix, so I cannot afford to miss resurrecting the gain structure. Healy is working me through his mic floor mat switches the Dead used for decades, but touring has kept me away from my shop, so I carry on manually in the interim.

The hardest part of my role is deciphering the install and making sure we have a system that will work optimally for us. Many clubs have archaic and shabby installs, of poorly maintained and sometimes unserviceable gear. Then there are venues like Brooklyn Bowl with a Venue at FOH and SC48 in monitors, and a nicely flown Vertec array. I carry a wealth of adapters, splitters, looms, and the xta to help us achieve a stable system, but there is often little that can be done and "doors" are looming.

The biggest tool I have is controlling SPL. I strive for 93 dBA at FOH (unless I'm literally on the mains, which happens... :crying:). During solo's I tend to de-emphasize other inputs, rather than boost the solo - the result is the same without escalating SPL.

As to Santana's troubles, I cannot know. At a recent festival the spendiferous IM8-40 :barf:would not bus one of my vocals - an unknown "feature" of that contractors console. w/o soundcheck (only line checks at festivals...), I had to bump it mid-set at FOH - the adjacent strip happened to be empty and functioning. I told the system tech, who failed to pass it along to Scarekrow (NRPS) who was up next. I was backstage during NRPS, and could tell Scarekrow fell into the same trap - David Nelson's vocals were not where they should be, so I ran to FOH, and shared my discovery. Scarekrow couldn't bump (adjacent strips busy), so he double-bussed. The point being the bad strip gave great signal indication, but would not bus - tough to decipher in the heat of building a mix, fast. And, something that was not so obvious until Nelson was talking.

Likewise, Sunday I had our keyboard through a JDI duplex - just like always and works fine. But the house tech inadvertently punched one channel out-of-phase. Neither our monitor guy nor I caught it - both ch gave great clean signal, but combined in the mix I got nothing. Mind blowing symptoms at downbeat. A few frantic COMS to stage made them check my hunch, and it got fixed, but it took some time and I had 20-something other ch needing my attention.

The point is, things happen, as you know, and it doesn't always go as planned.

I've run into as many disinterested / obstructionist HE's as you have BE's. My job is to friend them, work with them, and leave things in better condition than found, and to throw off a good show for the fans and house. I can also only remind that BE's get incredibly run down - we're not home or near home. A different venue every night requires +/- 5 hrs of driving every day (not everyone has a tour bus), after too few hours sleep and 12-hrs of standing every show. This is not an excuse, just the reality of "living the dream" and toward the end of a run, everyone is pretty exhausted and needing some time off. Then again, after being home for only a couple days, I'm already advancing the next run and anxious to get back out... :bouncy:

[Tim Rinkerman]

"Tim - you raised a lot of issues, some agreed, some not. I run into many band engineers (BE's) on the road, and I can say that to a person, few are bored, and all are working really hard."
I have to agree that few are bored.....I guess I have just come up against too many that spend too much time making excuses why the band is messing up their mix, or promoting their own agenda. I, like you, try to make the day as smooth and easy as possible...even when moving the building 4 feet to the left would have been easier.
Yes, things do happen, and sometimes it doesn't go the way you would like, or the way it was planned..but you know as well as I do, that there are some people who push you just to see how far you will go. Or, spend 2 hours on getting drum sounds, and the vocals suck during the show, and the BE blames the guitar player....been there too many times...

[Altec Best]

One thing I think any musician will tell you is that they would much rather play in a indoor small venue then an outdoor one.With outdoor venues i think you need more power and with more power you have more distortion especially if the drivers can't handle it.There is nothing worse then a show that sounds like crap.Hey I want my money back this sounds like crap.:crying:. Visuals are a lot harder as well I try to stay away from the outdoor venues just for these reasons "I Won't Like the Show" Any intimate small venue is going to be hard to beat.The only problem is that any decent act don't play in too many small venues for the fact that the demand for tickets is too high to justify playing in those small venues when let's say that they can sell out a large venue.It's all about making money and being able to satisfy the public in that it will give everyone a chance to see them who wants to.

[boputnam]

...I guess I have just come up against too many that spend too much time making excuses why the band is messing up their mix.... Yikes - never known that. We often struggle with our rented backline - the B3, Leslies and guitar amp are not what the rider specified and this (rightfully) distracts the artists and confounds the mix, too, but I can't comprehend blaming the aritists. We are in this together.


One thing I think any musician will tell you is that they would much rather play in a indoor small venue then an outdoor one.With outdoor venues i think you need more power and with more power you have more distortion especially if the drivers can't handle it.Both are very different - hard to compare. Outdoors gives the benefit of less acoustical issues - boundary effects, slap-back, etc. - both situations need the proper sized PA, in either event.

I prefer outdoor, myself - weather permitting - especially if a small amphitheatre. :)

[LowPhreak]

Excellent observation - I do find that for rock music drummers make the best transition into sound techs



Don't know how that was intended, but let's not bash drummers! I'm a drummer and I can tell you that if I ran sound in many of my gigs, I'd certainly try for a much more balanced mix than what I've had to tolerate. No, I don't believe the drums should hog the mix much of the time, though I do get annoyed when some half-assed FOH guy gates my cymbals too hard. But I guess if they just want white noise... :banghead:


On Santana - One of all-time fave bands, and I've seen them several times over the past couple decades (80's through '00's, though didn't get to see them in the 70's). Every time in venues such as Saratoga Performing Arts Center and RPI Field House (Troy, NY), they sounded very good to excellent. Most of those shows from what I could tell were JBL PAs. Example: the 1983 Shango tour I saw at SPAC was a near-religious experience for me, (and no, I hadn't used any of the dreaded 'Lysergic) :blink: ;)

So I'm a bit surprised at the description of that show above. Too bad, because Santana shows used to sound great, and I didn't hear a bad one out of the 8 or 9 I've attended.

Yes, another of my faves, I've seen 3 times, (1977 Relayer tour at War Memorial in Nashville; 1991 Union tour at Pepsi Arena, Albany; and at SPAC a few years ago), and all had very good sound.

Anyway, it's too bad these great acts have such mediocre backup today.