Fake 150-4Cs

[rgwalker]

I have some 150-4Cs on Ebay and someone is claiming that they are fakes
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160445025859&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT
and
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160445024842&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT

His claim is that he has another pair with very close serial numbers to mine and that it's too close to be a coincidence. My argument is that there weren't many made and that 80% of them have been or will be for sale on Ebay and Audiogon etc and that it's not a stretch to have two pairs from the same batch show up on two different sales sites within a period of time and to someone who's actively looking. He claims that the guy that I bought them from sells repro labels etc but his feedback iss 100% and has absolutely no indication of anything but up front business to happy buyers.

I saw a thread here from 2003 but there didn't seem to be a consensus and none of the links to photos are good. Has there been any update on that discussion and is there any way to definitely tell a real one from a fake or one that's been doctored?

If these are fakes they were built extremely well and perform beautifully. The cones aren't marked but the paper looks authentic and it seems that doctoring a cone ID would be easy if that was the idea.

I have no other reason to believe that they are fakes but I don't want to pass something along as genuine if it isn't and especially if I've been alrerted that it may be a possibility.

Thanks

Bob Walker (702) 241-6599

[scott fitlin]

It was also stated in the same thread by someone else, that they look REAL, too! AND that it would be fairly foolish to try to pass of D-130,s as 150,s as most people in the market for this woofer KNOW what it is they are looking at!

Anyway, sometimes people get the wrong impressions almost immediately, but to my eyes your 150,s LOOK REAL and GENUINE!

On behalf on Lansing Heritage I apologize for any misconceptions about your products for sale. IN THE FUTURE, should you have something on ebay for sale that some are knocking here, and it ISN'T true, PM me, I will take care of it.

[rgwalker]

Now I'm paranoid and I've pulled the auction until I can determine whether these are real or not. The photo links are still up but may disappear soon. I'll take some very detailed photos and post them here tomorrow and hopefully someone can tell me definitively whether they're real or fake.

Bob W

[rgwalker]

It was also stated in the same thread by someone else, that they look REAL, too! AND that it would be fairly foolish to try to pass of D-130,s as 150,s as most people in the market for this woofer KNOW what it is they are looking at!

Anyway, sometimes people get the wrong impressions almost immediately, but to my eyes your 150,s LOOK REAL and GENUINE!

On behalf on Lansing Heritage I apologize for any misconceptions about your products for sale. IN THE FUTURE, should you have something on ebay for sale that some are knocking here, and it ISN'T true, PM me, I will take care of it.

Scott: I really appreciate the comment. I don't think that anyone here is knocking mine; or at least I haven't seen it. It's the lone bidder who's brought it up but something's not right. Yesterday his story was that he had just received another pair with similar numbers but today he has had multiple pairs and several of the pairs have close numbers. Now he's saying that the guy who sold them to me has admitted that he makes fakes. I've contacted but haven't heard back from the original seller. If the bidder was already suspicious why did he make the bids and why is it an issue the day before the auction closes? I offered to let him pull his bid when he first brought it up and he didn't so I shut it down rather than deal with any potential problems. I may have been getting played and I don't know the game but it needed to end. He's bidding on three other items and if there's any indication of the same game I'll shut them down too and block his bids in the future. However, he may be right and I'd be foolish to dismiss it without investigating it.

Bob W

[rgwalker]

Anyway, sometimes people get the wrong impressions almost immediately, but to my eyes your 150,s LOOK REAL and GENUINE!

What would be definitive are validations from some of the ex JBL engineers and technicians here that designed and built the stuff. I'll post some detailed photos later tonight and see what happens.

Thanks again for the support

Bob W

[rgwalker]

I've attached some close up photos of one of the speakers. Hopefully they will show something that can define it way or the other. There's an issue of it being a fake and then there's an issue whether it's real but has been put together from pieces and possibly with a reproduced label.

I can only post five at a time and I don't want to make them too large here. The original files are each 22" across and are 1600 x 1200 pixels. I can post one or two here and/or email as many as anyone would like for closer inspection. Right click on the photos and choose 'Save As' to get the ID number.

Bob W

[rgwalker]

The next five photos

[rgwalker]

The next five

[rgwalker]

The next five

[rgwalker]

This is it.

[scott fitlin]

Hopefully someone with true expert knowledge of the 150-4C will chime in. To my eyes, your 150,s look very darn good. The baskets and magnet pot are VERY GENUINE looking. The cones are in excellent shape.

Lets see what others have to say.

[rgwalker]

Hopefully someone with true expert knowledge of the 150-4C will chime in. To my eyes, your 150,s look very darn good. The baskets and magnet pot are VERY GENUINE looking. The cones are in excellent shape.

Lets see what others have to say.

Sorry Scott.............I didn't mean to imply that you're not an expert and when you first responded I assumed that you were. Your opinion meant a lot to me and was the boost that I needed. I was just refering to someone being able to validate them with their employment at JBL as a badge of sorts. It's borne out of frustration.

The seller that I got them from responded and said that they are authentic with recones that are as good as new and that they always pay attention to matching the coils. He says that if I test them on the meter that the DCR will be very close.

At the end of the day they will likely be proven authentic and I can get on with it. On one hand it's a waste of time but on the other I'm going to learn about 150-4Cs and become somewhat knowledgeable.

Bob W

[scott fitlin]

Sorry Scott.............I didn't mean to imply that you're not an expert and when you first responded I assumed that you were. Your opinion meant a lot to me and was the boost that I needed. I was just refering to someone being able to validate them with their employment at JBL as a badge of sorts. It's borne out of frustration.

The seller that I got them from responded and said that they are authentic with recones that are as good as new and that they always pay attention to matching the coils. He says that if I test them on the meter that the DCR will be very close.

At the end of the day they will likely be proven authentic and I can get on with it. On one hand it's a waste of time but on the other I'm going to learn about 150-4Cs and become somewhat knowledgeable.

Bob WBob, it's ok, I didn't take your comment the wrong way. Late 70,s gear and on, I know well. 50,s and 60,s gear, I learn new things all the time. When I say "Lets see what others have to say", it is because there are those who do know the 150 better than I. And I am OK with this, as I don't know everything!

I am confident your woofers will prove to be genuine, though. :D

[rgwalker]

Bob, it's ok, I didn't take your comment the wrong way. Late 70,s gear and on, I know well. 50,s and 60,s gear, I learn new things all the time. When I say "Lets see what others have to say", it is because there are those who do know the 150 better than I. And I am OK with this, as I don't know everything!

I am confident your woofers will prove to be genuine, though. :D

I'm just glad to have you guys and this resource available. I've been able to hook up with a few good people outside of the forum and have given my two cents worth on occassion. Anyway...enough of that.

I got an email back from Ken Haerr at Upland Loudspeaker Service. His initial opinion is that they have aftermarket parts and have been repainted but he wasn't specific about what parts and asked for larger photos. However, other than the paint he was specific about the recone and that may be all the he was referring to.

The paint is sloppy in spots and there are scratches and indentations in the metal under the paint but I have a pair of D140Fs and LE15As that aren't finished any better.

Someone posted a comment here in a similar thread from years ago about having several pairs of 150-4Cs with no markings on the original OEM cones and another guy who worked at JBL and prepared the foilcals who stated that it wasn't totally unheard of for D130s to get 150-4C badges and vice versa. That's obviously not the case with mine but it shows less than perfect quality control and the type of work that some may mistake for being redone may be factory original. Someone else posted a photo of a huge speaker array used by a lab for creating vibrations to test vibrations on spacecraft. He has suggested that when they were decommissioned many of the speakers and horn drivers were converted for hifi and relabled as 150-4Cs and 375s. Not authentic but not really fakes and not much different than speakers that had the coil gaps widened and given a second serial number at the factory, which is stamped above the origianl numbers.

I guess that I need to determine whether mine are actual fakes made from D130s, real but put together from spare and aftermarket parts or authentic from the frame up and simply reconed. It's definitely getting interesting.

Bob W

[rgwalker]

I just received an email from Harmon stating that mine look authentic.

Bob W

[Harkness]

the things that looked odd to me are: the magnet finish is smooth, unlike any i've seen before. i guess these could be a refinish and a rebadge and a recone we're seeing here. i've never seen an ink printed serial on that badge type before. the cork looks brand new, and cork loses that bright look after some years. part of the basket looks painted over.

if it's genuine, i would venture to say it's a total restoration with the magnet and basket assembly being the only remaining original parts.

without seeing it person though, i would say it's nealy impossible to say for certain. the small thumbnails in the thread aren't enough to go on.

i've attached a pic i took ten years ago when i opened my C40 cabinets for the first time. Digital cameras are a lot better now, so the detail is a bit lacking..

again, i'm not insisting these one's of bob's are not real, but only they looked different enough to warrant discussion.

[rgwalker]

the things that looked odd to me are: the magnet finish is smooth, unlike any i've seen before. i guess these could be a refinish and a rebadge and a recone we're seeing here. i've never seen an ink printed serial on that badge type before. the cork looks brand new, and cork loses that bright look after some years. part of the basket looks painted over.

if it's genuine, i would venture to say it's a total restoration with the magnet and basket assembly being the only remaining original parts.

without seeing it person though, i would say it's nealy impossible to say for certain. the small thumbnails in the thread aren't enough to go on.

i've attached a pic i took ten years ago when i opened my C40 cabinets for the first time. Digital cameras are a lot better now, so the detail is a bit lacking..

again, i'm not insisting these one's of bob's are not real, but only they looked different enough to warrant discussion.

The cones were done less than three years ago and I've been in touch with the guy who did it and sold them to me. He claims that the frames are authentic and his Ebay feedback comments totally back up his integrity but doesn't rule out that he reconed fakes without realizing it.

I spoke with Steve Schell who also noticed the smooth cover and has suggested that it's a recondition job with possible aftermarket parts, including a repainted cover. I've got nothing to lose by chipping off a small piece to see if there's another layer underneath. We discussed the label and it's much more difficult to silk screen a couple of numbers than to stamp them and the cones would be easy to mark. It doesn't make sense as a fake but the recondition of an original 150-4C that's since been neglected would explain a lot.

Thanks for your input. This has been a good learning experience. I may have been duped myself but perhaps I can be a watchdog for others in the future.

Bob W

[Harvey Gerst]

Someone posted a comment here in a similar thread from years ago about having several pairs of 150-4Cs with no markings on the original OEM cones and another guy who worked at JBL and prepared the foilcals who stated that it wasn't totally unheard of for D130s to get 150-4C badges and vice versa. That's obviously not the case with mine but it shows less than perfect quality control and the type of work that some may mistake for being redone may be factory original.from spare and aftermarket parts or authentic from the frame up and simply reconed. It's definitely getting interesting.

Bob W
George Martin (Jim Lansing's brother) was the only person in charge of putting foilcals on speakers, and recording that serial number in a book he kept at his bench. In my 8 years of working at JBL (a lot of that time as head of Quality Control), I never saw George make a mistake on labeling a speaker - ever!! The idea of George mislabeling a D130 as a 150-4C is ludicrous - we didn't make that many 150-4C's per month, so it would be pretty obvious to everybody if it was mislabeled. The only places we used 150-4C's were in Hartsfields, early Paragons, and the big theater bins; a much smaller market than cabinets designed for the home market, which used the D130's and 130A's.

The D130's and 130A's used a light curved cone, while the 150-4C used a heavy, straight-sided cone. The D130 had an aluminum dome; the 150-4c had a paper dome. The surround rolls were different on the 150-4C, and oh yeah, the 150-4C extender ring would have been a dead giveaway.

The pictures Bob posted show 150-4C's that may have been reconed and repainted, but they looks genuine to me.

[rgwalker]

George Martin (Jim Lansing's brother) was the only person in charge of putting foilcals on speakers, and recording that serial number in a book he kept at his bench. In my 8 years of working at JBL (a lot of that time as head of Quality Control), I never saw George make a mistake on labeling a speaker - ever!! The idea of George mislabeling a D130 as a 150-4C is ludicrous - we didn't make that many 150-4C's per month, so it would be pretty obvious to everybody if it was mislabeled. The only places we used 150-4C's were in Hartsfields, early Paragons, and the big theater bins; a much smaller market than cabinets designed for the home market, which used the D130's and 130A's.

The D130's and 130A's used a light curved cone, while the 150-4C used a heavy, straight-sided cone. The D130 had an aluminum dome; the 150-4c had a paper dome. The surround rolls were different on the 150-4C, and oh yeah, the 150-4C extender ring would have been a dead giveaway.

The pictures Bob posted show 150-4C's that may have been reconed and repainted, but they looks genuine to me.

Harvey: Thank you. I really appreciate the insight. I've offered the speakers to the original bidder for a good price and we're both happy. I might have gotten a few dollars more by listing them on Ebay again but I didn't lose much and I've gained some knowledge and experience.

I apologize for any slight against JBL but I've been clutching at straws and looking for any and all excuses for the condition of these speakers and most of what's out there is based on speculation and inuendo. I did see an old post from someone about the foilcals and no one here knows better than you what really went on but it seemed to fit and was never challenged so I used it in my hypothesis.

Bob W