Non-Harman line array SR?

[robertbartsch]

My wife and I went to a 12,000 seat outdoor theater (Nikon Jones Beach NY) to see Jethrow Tull and we were surprised to see a non-Harman line array system - L-Acoustic.

We were sitting 6 rows back on one side so it was diffucult to judge the quality of the system but it seemed pretty good.

We have seen a dozen or more acts in the last couple of years and EVERYTHING has been JBL.

...just wondering if his is a company that is managing a succesful challenge to Harman??

[robertbartsch]

The flying towers were small - I would guess they were filled with 12" drivers, smaller cone midrange speakers and a couple of compression drivers.

The units were covered with foam grills and embossed with "L-Acoustics." The bass cabs were stage mounted and looked small - say ....wide enough for 15" sub-woofer drivers.

There is limited information on these systems in the Internet. I assume these are a European knock-off of JBL.

[1audiohack]

1870's acoustician Vern Knudsen said "The ancients keep stealing our ideas."

Harry F. Olsen described (mathematically) line arrays, beam steering and the pattern control and dispersion of them in 1947 if I remember correctly.

There are many manufactures of line arrays, surprised?

[robertbartsch]

I suppose I am surprised a Tad (??). I assume the L-Acuostic brand is a Euro company and Tull is a Euro band. ...some would argue that it takes some gall to bring this stuff to America but it is supposed to be a free world, I guess.

The weirdest part of the event was that it was more than 50% empty on a Friday night in NYC. Apparently, the economy is soooo bad they were selling $10 tickets at the show for Yes, and other popular groups.

[Oldmics]

Robert

L"Acoustics is the French company that started the line array concept for pro sound.

It is a full bandwidth line array system.Vertec is not as it goes point source above 8K.

The Vertec is/was the Harman contender to capture the line array market.

It was probably Britanica Row supplying the system for Tull.

L"Acoustics requires stringent training and certification for all of those who purchase their V Dosc system which is probably what you heard.

I am a certified V Dosc technician.It was great training on how line arrays function and are deployed.

I critique all of the systems that I encounter against the V Dosc rigs.

There are some other excellent systems designs availiable.It really is about how each speaker element is designed and hung as a total package.

The Vertec system is not well regarded for audio quality in the pro world.

Oldmics

[mikebake]

The weirdest part of the event was that it was more than 50% empty on a Friday night in NYC. Apparently, the economy is soooo bad they were selling $10 tickets at the show for Yes, and other popular groups.
Maybe half their demographic are picking out their assisted living quarters................

[robertbartsch]

After a long absence from the live music scene, my wife and I have attended 12 or so concerts in the last 3 years.

Frankly, I have not been impressed by ANY flying line array SR systems that we have heard so far. From memory, the older shows of the 1970s with stage mounted bass horns and HF horns were much better the Vertec stuff.

Today, the objective seems to be to ripp off the audience by using cheaper smaller more compact equipment in flown rigs so set up and transportation costs can be minimized.

Obviously, the event forum has lots to do with your experience and we have decided to NEVER attend an event in a large indoor stadium where the sound bounces off the walls and ensures a miserable experience for all. Madison Square Garden in NYC is a prime example of a horrible forum for a music event.

Outdoor events and venues where no walls are present seem to provide an adequate experience, however. Small indoor halls <5,000 like Radio City are also OK.

If L-Acoustics invented the "line array" they need to go back and invent something better.

[voice of theatr]

I agree Robert, I've had much better luck with sound being acceptable in outdoor venues. Most indoor venues weren't built for acoustics (an understatement!), and at least outdoors you're not dealing with sound ricocheting every which way. Outdoors your main limitation is the sound man/PA system as opposed to most indoor venues even the best sound man/PA is very handicapped by horrendous acoustics. I've been at indoor concerts where the sound man had the volume too high for the room--combined with bad acoustics the bass was like thunder..... Here in Rochester, NY we have the (George) Eastman Theater--built for music/acoustics. I've seen concerts there where the sound man had the volume at a reasonable level and the overall sound quality was excellent. Same with the Roy Thomson Hall in Toronto (three hours drive from here). Unfortunately, indoor venues like these are few and far between....

Now that you mention it, those British bands are like the energizer bunny---they keep going and going and going. Think I'll throw on Thick As A Brick and maybe some Close to the Edge.....

[Tim Rinkerman]

"If L-Acoustics invented the "line array" they need to go back and invent something better"
About 15 years ago, L-Acoustics concept worked so much better than anybody else's anything, that within 2 years every big speaker manufacturer (and a bunch of the small ones..)had their own "line array". True, the do have their own particular "color", but in terms of size,pattern control, coverage....nothing else came close. The best new line arrays I have used is D+B, a German company that has taken the concept a few steps further...dedicated, mega powerful, lightweight amps, and really innovative construction.
And, remember, a bad soundguy can even make JBL stuff sound bad. :)

[robertbartsch]

So the flown line array system is about 15 years old?

I attended >100 concerts in the 1970s-80 and the sound reinforcement systems were pretty much the same consisting of bass HORN enclosures driven with 15" woofers and large format compression drivers with large horns. These were all stage mounted and driven by Crown amps. Sub woofers had not been developed yet.

We began to get interested in live entertainment again a few years ago and now the line arrays are the only game in town.

Some line arrays are good but some are horrible and, on balance, the older systems seemed better.

[Tim Rinkerman]

The line array concept is good, and set up correctly is a significant improvement over traditional systems. They are able to throw a very coherent pattern. The most unique trait of a properly set up one is that it presents a sound field that sounds alot closer than it really is. 100 feet away sounds like it is right in your face.
If you hear a really nice one,( and IF the guy knows how to mix,).. you will know it. As you move from one side to the other, there are no phase peaks and dips, and the volume is much more uniform. Being able to align many drivers into a tightly controlled pattern makes it alot easier to keep reflections off of the hard stuff, and having everything centered around a single vertical axis, reduces the amount of points of source to interfere with each other.