JBL 4430 vs JBL L300 summit

[pw8888]

HI
Could someone describe me the sound difference ?
i have a pair of 4430 . I love the sound.I tried them with a Mcintosh 2255 and a Crown STUDIO REFERENCE 1.
The crown won. tighter bass.

The 4430 doesn't go very very high and i "feel" i wouldn':Dt mind a tweeter.
Does the L300 has the same type of "sound " (specially the bass)

thanks for your info !!!

phil :D

[toddalin]

I find that the L300 does go higher and is more "effortless" in that range. The 4430 has more bass (and sounds "tubbier" in my room) but presents a better "sound stage" with better imaging than my quasi-L300s that have been enlarged by about 3/4 cubic foot with one port blocked for better bass.

http://www.largescaleonline.com/eimages/lsolpics/Team_Member_Pics/toddalin/Revised_L200_v4430.jpg

[pw8888]

Can you describe it more "hifi" sounding (l300)?
What amp did you try or do you use currently with them ?
Any recommendation ?
thanks :D !!

[toddalin]

Can you describe it more "hifi" sounding (l300)?
What amp did you try or do you use currently with them ?
Any recommendation ?
thanks :D !!


No, just a little different. And I can't see that the 4430s are too low to the ground as some may suggest seeing as how they are exactly where the factory placed them.

I run mine with a Yamaha RX-Z9 receiver.

[toddalin]

:rolleyes:

I deleted my previous post because there is no point in being involved in any thread you show up in.



So, why did you post in the first place? Must have been a USER ERROR on your part.

And when was the last time that you had a set of L300s and 4430s set up in the same place, at the same time, run by the same equipment so you could do instantaneous A/B comparisons? Ooops, better not answer as you may get involved.

[pw8888]

ok.go back on track please....

thanks toddalin for your advice.

:D

[tom1040]

try a supertweeter? It worked well with my JBL S/2600 speakers.

[HCSGuy]

This thread covers some parallel ground, it may shed some more light on the subject for you:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?27829-is-JBL-4333B-quot-much-quot-better-than-JBL-4425&p=280074&highlight=#post280074

[pw8888]

I would love to try a supertweeter ....
any advice ?
what model ?
crossover frequency ?

any advice welcome:D....

[tom1040]

Hi. The one have tried ( & is still connected ) is a Tannoy ST-50. I think this is the lowest on the "totem pole" yet cost a bit. Results were great-to me. Combined with the S/2600 were great. Upgrade fever hit and the 1400 Arrays are in use now.:D:D

[Robh3606]

No, just a little different. And I can't see that the 4430s are too low to the ground as some may suggest seeing as how they are exactly where the factory placed them.


Thats not how they were intended to be mounted. Almost all of the large format monitors were soffit mounted or raised so the HF drivers were are at or above ear level. None of those systems should be set up with woofers on the floor. They all benefit from having the woofers raised up a bit. Even a foot helps.

Rob:)

[4313B]

So, why did you post in the first place? Must have been a USER ERROR on your part.

And when was the last time that you had a set of L300s and 4430s set up in the same place, at the same time, run by the same equipment so you could do instantaneous A/B comparisons? Ooops, better not answer as you may get involved.Because I am thoroughly familiar with both products in a variety of venues. And yes, I've also had them side by side in several venues. But none of that is important - you are quite right, it was USER ERROR on my part to respond to this thread once you showed up. Going forward I will most assuredly defer to your vast depth and breadth of loudspeaker and system expertise and refrain from further postings.

[toddalin]

Thats not how they were intended to be mounted. Almost all of the large format monitors were soffit mounted or raised so the HF drivers were are at or above ear level. None of those systems should be set up with woofers on the floor. They all benefit from having the woofers raised up a bit. Even a foot helps.

Rob:)


That's all fine and dandy. But how many people do you really think soffit mount them in homes?

One must compare the speakers in their ultimate locations, and if it's not hanging, it's not hanging. If they are tubby on the floor and the L300s aren't, well then that's just the way it is.

[toddalin]

Because I am thoroughly familiar with both products in a variety of venues. And yes, I've also had them side by side in several venues.


In my venue in my home? I don't think so. :dont-know:

[Robh3606]

That's all fine and dandy. But how many people do you really think soffit mount them in homes?


That's not the point. The point is to get them on stands off the floor. Try them on the short stands you have the 300's on. I have my 4344's on 1 ft stands and it makes a big difference.

Rob:)

[toddalin]

That's not the point. The point is to get them on stands off the floor. Try them on the short stands you have the 300's on. I have my 4344's on 1 ft stands and it makes a big difference.

Rob:)


I don't have those on stands. Those are hollow bases.

[Robh3606]

I don't have those on stands. Those are hollow bases.

So try your hollow bases with them. Target is raised off the floor. Semantics of Base vs Stand simply not important.

Rob:)

[grumpy]

It'd be good to try, as I've certainly never heard anything but positives here in doing so.

Right now, I find I just end up slouching in my seat :p

[toddalin]

So try your hollow bases with them. Target is raised off the floor. Semantics of Base vs Stand simply not important.

Rob:)


No, you missed the point. Those are physically part of the speakers and open to the insides of the cabinets. As I've noted in the past, those speakers have had their internal volumes increase by ~3/4 cu ft. which should make them about the same as an L300's internal volume.

I would need top raise them on something else. But then there is also the WAF to contend with. As I said, I would bet that very few actually raise these and most listen at their "stock" placement.

Also if you raise them, unless you angle them down, you've changed the horn position relative to the ear. If JBL thought they should be raised, why didn't they provide/suggest an optional, angled stand?

[Robh3606]

Right now, I find I just end up slouching in my seat :p

:lol_fit:

These look nice but I bet they are pricey

Rob:)

[spkrman57]

I had a pair and they sounded better being 4 - 6" off the ground.

A tighter bass than when placed directly on the ground where tended to sound more bloated. Also, I have a small listening space if that helps any!

Ron

[toddalin]

I had a pair and they sounded better being 4 - 6" off the ground.

A tighter bass than when placed directly on the ground where tended to sound more bloated. Also, I have a small listening space if that helps any!

Ron


Bloated = Tubby

[spkrman57]

I would rather have less bass and have it clean, than bass that is not clean.

My love affair with the 2235 driver ended years ago and since then I am happy with really clean midbass that the 2226 delivers even if it does not reach much below 50hz.

In my system, the room gain gives usable below 40hz that is satisfying with the music I listen to that contains very little below 40hz.

Sometime in the future if I were to economically obtain a nice pair of 2234's, I would be temped to try them out as I think they may play the way I like.

Ron

[John]

I had a pair and they sounded better being 4 - 6" off the ground.

A tighter bass than when placed directly on the ground where tended to sound more bloated. Also, I have a small listening space if that helps any!

Ron

Hey I remember that room, It sounded very good even if it was small:bouncy:

[John]

Thats not how they were intended to be mounted. Almost all of the large format monitors were soffit mounted or raised so the HF drivers were are at or above ear level. None of those systems should be set up with woofers on the floor. They all benefit from having the woofers raised up a bit. Even a foot helps.

Rob:)

Where does it say in the 4430-35 user manual that these were designed to be soffit mounted? I really doubt that JBL did their voicing on these systems by placing them in soffit's. :confused:

[mech986]

Where does it say in the 4430-35 user manual that these were designed to be soffit mounted? I really doubt that JBL did their voicing on these systems by placing them in soffit's. :confused:

JBL designed these as Studio Monitors so their professional application was in control rooms or the actual studio. Most were used for monitoring live or replay audio so mostly nearfield monitoring. Since most studio control rooms have big mixing desks, placement on the floor or aside the desk would give really lousy placement or acoustics leading to poorly placed soundstage and midrange dispersion. And they're too big to put on top of the mixer desk like the small monitors with 8" or less woofers.

Most all studios then mounted their large SPL monitors in the walls or soffits to provide a clear unobstructed path to the recording engineers and clients. The soffit mounting provides for flush wall mounting (ultimate infiinite baffle) which minimizes boundary reinforcement from floor or ceiling or side walls which leads to bloated or excessive bass, especially with the dual woofer systems like the 4435/TAD or Augsperger monitors. It also allows the BiRadial horns to work into a much larger space.

Key also is most all studios are specifically acoustically treated to reduce excessive reflection and the whole speaker system/room is equalized to provide the desired response, acoustic or power. If any anomalies appear, they are worked over with EQ, placement, or other means.

In Todd's case, the bass likely is tubby due to floor reinforcement. The base on the 4430/4435 is something that the speaker sits on but in my experience, most 4430/4435's are soffit mounted and the bases are superfluous in that application. Even in the main studio of 4 studios I've seen, the 4435's are soffit mounted instead of being on the floor, partly for frequency and strict control of placement, and likely to save space.

Why doesn't the L200 mod to L300 sound that way? It was designed to be used as a home consumer floor monitor. It is set up to work primarily on the floor. The pro 4333/A is designed to work better in a soffit but can also work as a floor monitor in a pinch but was used in a studio era when acoustically EQing the room/monitor wasn't as feasible or scientific.

The original L200/4320 monitor sounded like crap partly due to the use of the 4320 parts in a floor monitor. If you look where most 4320s were mounted at Capital Records (who requested the design), you'll see they were all mounted up high. Granted this was the 60's but they didn't use them on the floor, they don't sound that good there.

Certainly, WAF is important, and the very nice room (I've been there) shouldn't be cluttered with all kinds of experiments. But a trial of a 6-12 inch stand could provide some nice data and listening experience to tell whether the 4430 likes to be a bit away from the floor. Otherwise, Todd would need to do what the studios do, EQ the bottom end so the floor boundary reinforcement is minimized and the bass is tightend back up.

Nice to have the 4430 Todd, I just think they could benefit from a bit more optimization like your L300's have had.

[John]

JBL designed these as Studio Monitors so their professional application was in control rooms or the actual studio. Most were used for monitoring live or replay audio so mostly nearfield monitoring.

I have only seen a few pictures of 4430,s in studios and included on equipment lists on studio web sites. Which to me sounds like they were not a hot ticket in studios but on the other hand, I have seen them in more bars and restaurants as well as homes than I can count. And the tag "Studio Monitor" did not mean much by the 80's. Every speaker coming out was tagged as one.:(

[4313B]

And the tag "Studio Monitor" did not mean much by the 80's. Every speaker coming out was tagged as one.:(It might not have meant much to the average consumer but it still meant something at the AES:

http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Technologyleadership/Documents/Scientific%20Publications/4573.pdf

I hope my reposting this information doesn't offend you experts. I've used Harman's new link instead of the link here on this website.

The JBL Model 4430 was the most successful large format Studio Monitor JBL ever made. It was available for nearly two decades.

These look nice but I bet they are priceyYeah but you can bet that they are worth it. They won't have the beer rings on the tops or barf stains on the grilles like you'll find here in the States.

[toddalin]

So the article and others simply confirm what I've said all along.

The L300 tweeter has a more effortless high end extension.

The 4430s present better imaging/sound stage.

Placed on the floor, the 4430s tend to be a bit heavy in the upper bass region.

So what's the problem here?

[Robh3606]

Placed on the floor, the 4430s tend to be a bit heavy in the upper bass region.


Well that's the point, not to place them that way. That's what I was getting at. You can make them sound better using short stands like in the Kendric Sound picture I posted. You are making claims about how tubby the 4430's are and you don't have them placed as well as you could. People try to help you and you get argumentative and defensive.



So what's the problem here?

None for me, I always place my speakers to get the most out of them. What's the point of not setting them up if they don't sound their best?? Why bother??

As far a problem comparing the 4430 to the L300. You not placing them optimally makes any comparison between the two worthless.

Rob:)

[toddalin]

Well that's the point, not to place them that way. That's what I was getting at. You can make them sound better using short stands like in the Kendric Sound picture I posted. You are making claims about how tubby the 4430's are and you don't have them placed as well as you could. People try to help you and you get argumentative and defensive.

None for me, I always place my speakers to get the most out of them. What's the point of not setting them up if they don't sound their best?? Why bother??

As far a problem comparing the 4430 to the L300. You not placing them optimally makes any comparison between the two worthless.

Rob:)


The OP asked for opinions.

No one said a word until me, nor would they probably have. In fact, other than me, no one still has yet to offer any comparison between the two.

All most have done is accuse me of an "improper setup" even though this is the way the speaker cabinets are physically designed to sit, this is the way they are typically used in a home setting, and that this is the way they used to place them for audition back in the day when they were sold in high end audio stores and places like Orange County Speaker. (Yeah I was in those places too.)

As for making claims that they are tubby in the position they are in, it's not a claim, it's an opinion that just happens to be backed up by the RTA. Someone could have simply said that even though this is the typical setup, the tubbyness is reduced if the speakers are raised without laying into me.

As far as not raising them making any comparison between the two worthless, well I guess that I was not aware that raising them will extend their high end by ~4,000 Hz or ruin their nice soundstage and imaging.

You guys are too much.

[Robh3606]

Someone could have simply said that even though this is the typical setup, the tubbyness is reduced if the speakers are raised without laying into me.


Well I hope you don't think I laid into you. The only point I was try to get across was raise them off the floor. Just try it and see if you like them better that way.


You guys are too much.

Well I guess we are. The whole point about doing good comparisons is to get each speaker pair set-up as best you can to make a fair comparison between the 2 different pairs. It's just my opinion but anything less than that makes for unfair and inconclusive comparisons.

Rob:)