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Dr.db
05-04-2010, 01:26 PM
Hey folks,


additional to the 2-inch drivers (2440 or 2482) I will go for a pair of tweeters too.
But I`m not shure how these 3 tweeters compare....

2404 and 2405 seem to be pretty much the same. How do they differ in sound and difraction?
I think the 2402 is the loudest one, but also the harshest...


Thanks a lot,
Olaf

jcrobso
05-04-2010, 02:23 PM
2402 cone dispersion about 40deg.
2404 constant directivity horn 100deg dispersion H&V.
2405 diffraction horn, 140deg H X 40deg V.
I have never done a side by side comparison, but for most Hi-Fi applications the 2405 is the preferred driver. The 2402 is mostly in PA applications and the 2405 in monitors.
Also the 076 is highly sought after.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150439403888&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

pos
05-04-2010, 02:24 PM
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?6368-Ring-Radiator-Comparisons
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?23869-075-2402-076-2403-2404-077-2405

4313B
05-04-2010, 05:08 PM
The 2405 is considered to be the best of the bunch.

The 2404 is nice if you like wide dispersion in both planes.

The 2402 is really for sound reinforcement use. JBL used it in the old days because they hadn't come up with anything better yet.

scott fitlin
05-05-2010, 03:59 AM
I have all three, 2402, 2404, and 2405. I use in my system the 2404 and 2402, and the 2402 bullet is VERY loud and also beamy. It is good for what I use it for, but is not what I would consider for home hi fi use.

The 2405 slot tweeter goes up much higher, and this would be a good hi fi choice. But, the 2405 is also slightly beamy.

The 2404 bi radial goes up high, and has wide dispersion, this is what my choice for home use is. I like the sound character of this particular unit, airy, and delicate and twinkly sounding top end, with very wide dispersion so you won't hear drop off as you walk around the room.

jcrobso
05-05-2010, 09:18 AM
I have all three, 2402, 2404, and 2405. I use in my system the 2404 and 2402, and the 2402 bullet is VERY loud and also beamy. It is good for what I use it for, but is not what I would consider for home hi fi use.

The 2405 slot tweeter goes up much higher, and this would be a good hi fi choice. But, the 2405 is also slightly beamy.

The 2404 bi radial goes up high, and has wide dispersion, this is what my choice for home use is. I like the sound character of this particular unit, airy, and delicate and twinkly sounding top end, with very wide dispersion so you won't hear drop off as you walk around the room.
I have 2402 and 2404, but no 2405/077 I would like to get some, someday.
I have heard the 076 and they are nice, but they usually cost a few body parts.:crying:

4313B
05-05-2010, 09:58 AM
I have heard the 076 and they are nice, but they usually cost a few body parts.:crying:Yeah, it's really a shame because they do look nice and while they are a nice ring radiator their performance isn't quite up to the older slot.

scott fitlin
05-06-2010, 12:42 AM
I have 2402 and 2404, but no 2405/077 I would like to get some, someday.
I have heard the 076 and they are nice, but they usually cost a few body parts.:crying:If the slot floats your boat, then the tweeter I might look into as the ultimate, is the TAD ET-703. Be diaphragm, Cobalt magnet, and they are listed on TAD,s site, as being available, with a WHOPPING $1490ea, list price. Even though it had been said they were discontinued, they seem to be listed, maybe Widget can chime in, as he is an authorized TAD dealer.

The TAD ET-703 has rated response to 45k, and a 107db sensitivity, and looks like the slot without the triangular phase plug. The few people I have heard from that have and use these, or have heard them, exclaim THE HIGHEST PRAISE of any tweeter ever.

As long as we are writing the wish list.....

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/BusinessProducts/ProfessionalSpeakers/TAD-Drivers/ET-703

Dr.db
05-06-2010, 04:12 AM
Hi Scotty,


how would you compare the 2404 to the 2405 ?

Besides different difractions how does the sound differ?



@All:

Thanks for your replies/links, I do know by now that I won`t use a Ringradiator....

pos
05-06-2010, 05:26 AM
Thanks for your replies/links, I do know by now that I won`t use a Ringradiator....
Why?
they are all ring radiators

1audiohack
05-06-2010, 08:31 AM
I do know by now that I won`t use a Ringradiator....


I think the confusion may have been caused by the statement;



Yeah, it's really a shame because they do look nice and while they are a nice ring radiator their performance isn't quite up to the older slot.


and Dr.db possibly not knowing that all of them are ring radiators.

Anyway Dr.db I think the 2404 and 2405 sound very similar, volume level corrected and up close on axis. The 2404 is less efficient than a 2405 because its work is being spread over a much larger area due to the coverage angle created by the 100° by 100° horn.

That said, the 2405 may exhibit more detail due to it not working as hard via reduced coverage area and the mutual benefit of more direct energy reaching you and less energy bouncing around the room.

Dr.db
05-06-2010, 03:34 PM
Ah ok, didn`t know they are all ringradiators.... I thought just the 2402 is one....


All right, so there are just very little differences between 2404 and 2405 in sound.. As any of these tweeters is loud enough to shatter a living room I think I go for the baby-checks as I`m not fixed onto a sweetspot :)

scott fitlin
05-06-2010, 08:17 PM
Ah ok, didn`t know they are all ringradiators.... I thought just the 2402 is one....


All right, so there are just very little differences between 2404 and 2405 in sound.. As any of these tweeters is loud enough to shatter a living room I think I go for the baby-checks as I`m not fixed onto a sweetspot :)OK, here's the deal as I hear with my ears.

2402 BULLET! VERY NARROW ( beamy ) dispersion , you move one inch off axis, and the highs drop like a rock. However, for dance music systems they can give you that HIGH PRESSURE SPRAY, in soundwaves, similar to using a water hose with the nozzle set to the narrow spray that gives you the highest pressure and throw distance. Of course, it's 15k rated response is kind of limited for todays music. But, for dance music this also gives the ability to accentuate that HI HAT cymbal type sound, that TSS, TSS, TSS sound! And with careful set up in arrays of four hanging over the dance floor in 4 array sets, 16 tweeters total, they can actually sound quite good, but again, NOT really consumer hi fi. So, even though I use four arrays of four 2402,s each, my six full range stacks each have a 2404 bi radial, and it is these that we really hear the extension and fine top end coming from, the bullets in my system work in a similar fashion as subs do in systems, they are reinforcing the sound coming from the 2404,s and augment the top end as effects tweeters, something of an audible illusion if you will. However, IF I just use the 2402,s without a REALLY GOOD tweeter on the full range stacks, that DO go up high enough, and have the sound I like, THE BULLETS ALONE ARE ROUGH SOUNDING! But, again, I run a dedicated dance music system, and it is different from HIGH END CONSUMER HI FI, it does sound spectacular, but, there is some Hollywood trickery going on.

2405 SLOT! Wider dispersion, yet still sounds slightly beamy, you will hear the HF level drop as you move off axis, but these go up quite high. They are rather sharp sounding, and not harsh, but, too sharp and abrupt for me, that is just my taste, I suppose. To my ear, they can be somewhat analytical sounding,and a bit cold and even though they are rated at 105DB 1W@1M, to me they sound as sensitive as the 110DB 1W@1M 2402 BULLET!

2404 BI RADIAL. This tweeter has also very HF response, and VERY wide dispersion, as I walk my room, I don't hear these drop off as I move off axis from their center point. The sound character is a soft, sweet, sound. Delicate airy sounding VHF, that twinkles, and gives you that breath from the back of HER throat sound, and cymbals that elusive GOLDEN SHIMMER. Highs are softer sounding than the 2402 or 2405, and this, to me, makes it sweeter more pleasing. I was told that the shapes of the horns and phase plugs come into play here, as well as the diaphragms. Round horns and round phase plugs have a softer sound, square and rectangular horns and phase plugs with sharp folds and bends, are harder and less sweet sounding. All I know IS I LIKE THE 2404, I am not crazy for the 2405.

Of course, all these tweets are good devices, used properly, for their intended applications. WHAT anyone prefers over one or another is personal preference. I am just sharing my personal tastes for what I like. Also the 2404 is rated as 105DB 1W@1M, too!

Dr.db
05-07-2010, 09:27 AM
Well Scotty, thank you very very much for this informative and well written answer of yours!!

It really did give me a helpfull overview I was looking for, great stuff!!

By now I do know the best purposes of these three ringradiators and all of you helped me a lot to find the correct choice for my setups.
At home where listening position is quiete predictable I will use the 2405 because of it`s analytical way of playing music.
In my mobil setup for nearfield I`ll use the 2404h cause of its dispersion.
Allthough I allready got four 2402 I have no clue where to run them right now.... But someday maybe....


I wish you all a nice and pleasent weekend,
Olaf

scott fitlin
05-07-2010, 02:42 PM
Well Scotty, thank you very very much for this informative and well written answer of yours!!

Allthough I allready got four 2402 I have no clue where to run them right now.... But someday maybe....


I wish you all a nice and pleasent weekend,
OlafYour very welcome. Lets get down to brass tacks now, and I will suggest to you something you might find more than interesting. You say you have a mobile system, so I am assuming this system is a DJ/Entertainment system?

If so, what I would do if I were you, and as I do for myself, and have done for years, is save up the money for a GSA X-3000 DJ crossover, it is an exact copy of the original Richard Long RLA X-3000 crossover. These are the famous DJ crossovers used at clubs like Studio54, The Paradise Garage, and are made today by various independent sound contractors and companies, as well as I have and use these myself.

What this is, is a special 3 way crossover, with a sub bass stereo output, a "FULL RANGE" bandpass output, and a tweeter output. The crossover points are 100hz/18db Butterworth, Full Range is is a 20hz - 20khz, with gentle 6db hi pass and low pass at their set points, and the tweeter out is 7K 18db Butterworth. The front panel has three knobs, a bass, and full range, and tweeter, they are dual ganged stereo pots, and are the output level controls, and are used as the level controls to boost the tweeters or sub bass during peaks, and break passages in recordings. Raising the bass pot for example, and you only affect your subs, and get that dance club BOOM, BOOM, same thing with the tweeters. The full range output of the X-3000 would feed the crossover you have now, for your full range combination. The full range in my system has six stacks of dual 15in woofers, a JBL 2395 lens horn with 2441J compression driver, and the JBL 2404 bi radial. What you would do, is run your full range, with whatever LF woofers and cabinets you have, crossing over into your midrange units of whatever it is you have, and then at 7K your midrange rolls off and the 2404 bi radials come in! Now, you would have to have wood or plastic, or plexi mounting boxes made to house the JBL 2402 tweeters you have, and mount these on top of your full range cabinets, with the bullets in a side by side configuration. Your sub bass cabinets would be under your full range cabinets, you effectively have ground stacks, and the way this now works, is the GSA X-3000 crossover is mounted in your console above your mixer, and instead of using the bass and treble tone controls on the mixer to accentuate highs and lows as you play music, you use the bass and tweeter output level knobs on this crossover, and your full range with the nice and delicate sounding 2404 remains consistent in level and sound, then you want to excite the audience and you raise the tweeter knob, which only affects the 2402 bullets, and get that TSS TSS TSS! Same thing for the bass, and these crossovers also uses specialized filter tuning and gain for the bass and tweeters that give them a sound unlike any other crossover can. Your full range is the prominent sound, but this way of doing things allows you to kick the bass and sizzle the highs without overdriving the full range. Augmentation! And it works.

It is an expensive way of doing things, but you would love the sound you can get from your mobile rig. It requires the GSA X-3000, and your current crossover, and EQ,s as well as amps for the bullets, and the bi radials, and additional amps for you subs.

You can find more info about systems like these and their components at www.gsany.com, as well as I am part of and run a forum dedicated to dance club style sound, and you can look at things over there and discuss with others this type of sound system. www.wavemusic.com, and we have a wonderful community of DJ,s and DIY,ers, and you are welcome to join us, and learn more about this kind of sound. I can put you in touch with all the right people to purchase whatever you want and/or need for these kinds of components, and [email protected] is also a seller of quality rebuilt Urei 1620 mixers, GSA X-3000 crossovers, and GSA ISO-3001 isolators three band accelerated tone control EQ type units with FULL KILL on bass, full range, and treble. You will also discover others systems, and DIY electronic projects, speaker systems, and consoles, as well as other brands of custom high quality nightclub oriented electronics. And of course, I can offer you advice on set up and use, and how to achieve that special sound that makes the people throw their hands in the air and dance till dawn! Like here, we are a friendly community and we all take great pride in what we have and what we do, and always love helping new people.

This is not to say you no longer need to be a member at Lansing Heritage, it is another forum, specific to dance club sound and music, and you will meet other people into what we do. I use alot of JBL in my system, I also use TAD 15in woofers, and have four Richard Long J Horn subs that use another woofer brand, but all the rest of my 18,s and my horns and comp drivers and tweeters are JBL.

AFAIC, between Lansing Heritage, and Wavemusic, you will have some of the best information available, so come on over and join us there, too! :D

louped garouv
05-07-2010, 03:05 PM
Your very welcome. Lets get down to brass tacks now, and I will suggest to you something you might find more than interesting. You say you have a mobile system, so I am assuming this system is a DJ/Entertainment system?

If so, what I would do if I were you, and as I do for myself, and have done for years, is save up the money for a GSA X-3000 DJ crossover, it is an exact copy of the original Richard Long RLA X-3000 crossover. These are the famous DJ crossovers used at clubs like Studio54, The Paradise Garage, and are made today by various independent sound contractors and companies, as well as I have and use these myself.

What this is, is a special 3 way crossover, with a sub bass stereo output, a "FULL RANGE" bandpass output, and a tweeter output. .....


AFAIC, between Lansing Heritage, and Wavemusic, you will have some of the best information available, so come on over and join us there, too! :D


i have to say i have been really digging the DJ style crossovers for a few years now....


I have an RLA unit as well as two units of an alternative brand in the same design "vein" that utilizes shallower slopes to feed the "augmented" tweeter arrays and subbass units....

i do enjoy the way they function very much!

pocketchange
05-27-2010, 05:13 PM
After a several years of listening to all three, the 2404H works better for home use in any size room. HF blankets the area and isn't piped to a single spot which is great for extended listening.
I've re-done the top's on my EV KD2's a few times using different drivers and the current results are much better than my previous quest for audio perfection. :)

4313B
05-27-2010, 06:01 PM
HF blankets the area and isn't piped to a single spot which is great for extended listening.

Have any of you noticed years ago that George used two slots in some of his monitors, one horizontal and the other vertical. I assume that was before the 2404 was thought up.

scott fitlin
05-27-2010, 11:29 PM
HF blankets the area and isn't piped to a single spot which is great for extended listening.

Have any of you noticed years ago that George used two slots in some of his monitors, one horizontal and the other vertical. I assume that was before the 2404 was thought up.Actually YES I have noticed that! I used to, many years ago, wonder why?

But for me, and I have slots, I just don't like their tonality. I am not saying they are bad, but I LOVE the tonality of the 2404,s and don't care for the 2405.

:dont-know:

Dr.db
06-11-2010, 06:39 PM
Hey,


just a single question that keeps my mind on working...

Does the 2402 has the same diaphragm as the 2404 !?
So could I simply swap the horns....!?

scott fitlin
06-12-2010, 07:03 AM
Hey,


just a single question that keeps my mind on working...

Does the 2402 has the same diaphragm as the 2404 !?
So could I simply swap the horns....!?No.