Center Channel question

[jontherev]

Howdy. I'm curious what some of you experts think about center channels, as I currently do not use one at all. On a recent thread about L150's, I read some discussion about how important the center is for watching movies, something that I was unaware of. I have an L150 that I use as my fronts. For rear speakers, I use an old set of Optimus STS100's (small bookshelfs). Also, I have no subwoofer. Would I be better off hooking up one of these as my center, and not using ANY rears?

I guess I'm looking for advice on what to add as a center channel. On that other thread, the L112 was suggested. Since money is an issue with me, I am curious what would be the smarter purchase: a powered subwoofer, or a center channel speaker (eventually I'll get both, but for now just one'll do). To keep on topic, I would prefer JBL to Optimus speakers.:cool: For you veterans, how often does one find single speakers on ebay (or elsewhere), as opposed to pairs (since I only need one). Finally, any suggestions besides the L112, or is that the optimal pairing (if there IS even such a thing), given my L150 fronts? As for my rears, I'll probably be keeping them for awhile. Also on my get-list is a nice 6230 for those 150's. Thanks to anyone who feels like edgyoukatin' me. I know I'm asking A LOT of questions. As you can tell, I'm sortuva newbie.:D

If this is covered in previous topics, just let me know...I didn't see anything offhand...thanks a TON!!!

[Mr. Widget]

If you watch movies by yourself or are very familiar with one other party while watching movies a center channel speaker is an unnecessary luxury. If you have two or more friends with you during the movies a center channel is very important. If you use a center channel it ideally is the same or very similar to your left and right speakers. For most movies the majority of the sound track will be played through the center so a killer pair of left and rights and a mediocre center is just plain wrong. Rear channels can be almost anything. Set up properly they should seldom be noticed and any moderately competent speaker will do. A sub is nice for action movies, but your L-150s will certainly do for now.

All of these comments assume you have a proper multi-channel processor or receiver that has the capabilities to direct the channels and frequencies to the appropriate speakers. I am also assuming that you do not intend to play multi-channel music. If your goal is multi-channel music, get three more L-150s.

Widget

[boputnam]

Hey, rev...

Widget's got it, down. And, his is the most intense HT you'll find - bar none. I feel we get by fine with a 2-way setup using 4345's - and it's phenomenal - but we clearly cannot get the spatial effects afforded by 5.1. And, doing 5.1 badly is foolish.

Get a good EXPENSIVE processor, a proper speaker config, and off you go. This will convince your girl-to-be-wifey that stereo gear is her friend... ;)

[Robh3606]

IMHO If you plan to do HT right you need a good center. That is how the mixes are designed to be heard. Anything less than 5.1 is a compromise. I use a Urei 811C clone as a center. Its a 15' coax driver like the Altec 604's. Rears you have some latitude with but for Mulitichannel music you need good rears to as they can be either croud noise or your backround singers depending on the mix. As Widget says 5 of the same is the best but usually it's not a practicle solution. Now if you like what you get using the 150's and no center don't worry about it. There are plenty of people out there who don't like using a center channel speaker and use phantom mode. If your are one of them don't sweat it.

Rob:)

[Charley Rummel]

I've been using an Altec 604C for a center chanel for a mighty long time. It is flanked by a pair of L65 Jubals. The rear speakers are a pair of non-lansing systems which also help add an extra octive or so of bass (I don't believe in the subwoofer thing by any means!). I don't focus on HT in this particular system; it's main function is music.

I first tried implementing a center channel when I was in my early teens (~1973 or so). I had a Sansui amp with a pair of Fisher speakers serving my left and right chanels (later came L26's). One afternoon I tried plugging my guitar amp, a Fender Bandmaster with a Baldwin keyboard cab, halfway into the headphone jack on my tapedeck to contact both channels on the patch chord, and found an absolutely amazing sound:eek: . The tapedeck mixed the mono signal for the center. (I played Deep Purple's 'Smoke on the Water' at a healthy level, and about half way into the song the door to my bedroom swung open with a crash, and there was my mother, mad as hell and screaming, "...TURN THAT GODD@*@*D THING DOWN!!!:biting: " followed by a stearn lecture on irreversable hearing loss)

A shortwhile later, the Bandmaster was replaced by the Altec 604C (which were very cheap in the 1970's) and another amp. For a while I had the L26's for front left and right. Eventually I got the L65's, which I still have to this day along with the 604C in my main sound room. (Today, it's the WAF, or wife-acceptance factor we deal with. In those days I dealt a lot with the PAF, or parrents-acceptance factor:D ) Anyway the sound is hard to beat!

Regards,
Charley

[Steve]

Aloha
For my AV set up, I have been using a pair of Valencia's with 515C's reconed at 8 ohms instead of the 416Z for L&R.
For the center I picked up the single home made cabinet, about 6 years ago, of solid black walnut made in 1957 with an 803 woofer and 802C driver on 811 horn. I love the 802C driver on the center horn. I don't even turn on the tv sound any more. The TV and cat are bigger now. I am currently using an Yamaha AV receiver.
Instead of the copier on the right speaker, I have an Altec 9440A amp driving a Contra Bass sub.
For rear speakers I have an old pair of Tannoy C6's I picked up at a garage sale that I put in a new set of woofers. The center speaker I found in CT...... had it shipped as is. Those were the days....Put in another x-over, rest untouched. I do have a pair of L65's for kitchen listening.
Music immersion is where it is at for us.

Steve

[MJC]

Like Wiget has said, if you're sitting in the middle you don't HAVE to have a center speaker for movies. For DVD-A or SACD you will want 5 identical full range speakers.
I have 5 L212s and 3 subs. The small sub is connected to the center L212 and the two sub1500s are connected to the sub out on the pre/pro thru a K2 amp. With this setup the 2 sub1500s are always on and the small sub is only on if the center is activated.
I made my L/R mains into mirror image, this gives me a better soundstage for stereo. If I run 2 channel music thru the prologic decoder, activating the center channel, the soundstage collapes.

But a movie like "We Were Soldiers" with 5.1 DD, the sound was much better with the center channel on, as apposed to sending the center info to the L/R speakers.

The better your pre/pro or receiver the better your system will perform. I think I'm going to get a Lexicon pre/pro, a big upgrade to the Marantz receiver I'm using as a pre/pro.

[GordonW]

A L112 is usually suggested, because it has the same active drivers as the L150. It's just in a smaller box, which means it'll have less low end, but it'll match otherwise.

John, if you want... I've got a single L100 cabinet (which is the same size, pretty much, as an L112) that could be retro-fitted as a "pseudo-L112", if you'd like to try it. If you want the bare cabinet, it's yours... it's just a matter of locating appropriate drivers. I'd be willing to build a replica L112 or L150 crossover, for a reasonable price... and I think I've got a midrange basket already (LE5-6 basket), suitable for reconing.

The center channel discussion caught my eye, as I'm already building one for another person using L100Ts; it's going to have the woofers from a pair of L20Ts and a single 035Ti tweeter. I still have to build a box for it, but it looks like it's going to work quite well. It seems like there might be a "niche market" for building center channel speakers to match with vintage JBLs, no?

Regards,
Gordon.

[4313B]

The 4411 makes a good center channel since it's network is designed to allow the system to operate on it's side, hence a 14-1/4" vertical height.

For modest 5.1 HT systems I like the Tannoy Saturn series coupled to JBL subs.

[jontherev]

Interesting stuff guys. I'm running my L150's through a Harmon Kardon AVR40 at the moment, but plan on obtaining a JBL 6230/6260 at some point soon (I hope) to help'em out.:D The HK only has one input for the center channel, so I can only use one speaker (I believe someone suggested another set of L150's...yikes!). Would it be ok to use my HK to power the center, while I'm using a 6230 to power the fronts, or would this be unbalanced? Currently, I do use phantom mode for movies/tv and usually for music as well (occasionally hall or prologic). Sometimes it seems like the music is too loud, while the conversation is a bit low, so I tend to turn up the TV to offset it. Thanks!

[jontherev]

Originally posted by GordonW
A L112 is usually suggested, because it has the same active drivers as the L150. It's just in a smaller box, which means it'll have less low end, but it'll match otherwise.

John, if you want... I've got a single L100 cabinet (which is the same size, pretty much, as an L112) that could be retro-fitted as a "pseudo-L112", if you'd like to try it. If you want the bare cabinet, it's yours... it's just a matter of locating appropriate drivers. I'd be willing to build a replica L112 or L150 crossover, for a reasonable price... and I think I've got a midrange basket already (LE5-6 basket), suitable for reconing.

The center channel discussion caught my eye, as I'm already building one for another person using L100Ts; it's going to have the woofers from a pair of L20Ts and a single 035Ti tweeter. I still have to build a box for it, but it looks like it's going to work quite well. It seems like there might be a "niche market" for building center channel speakers to match with vintage JBLs, no?

Regards,
Gordon.

Gordon,
That sounds really interesting. I'll definitely keep your most kind offer in mind and look around for some drivers. Thanks man! What drivers would you recommend me look for? The originals from the L112? So, I'd just need the woofer, the tweeter, and recone your mid? Fun fun fun! Yeah, definitely a niche market!:) Man, this is exciting finally getting my system up to par! I sure hope that 033 gets here today. Every day I pull up the driveway, I'm looking for that brown package. I was told "late this week, early next week at the latest". Patience Daniel-san.:cool: Take care,
Jon

[4313B]

I've got a single 033. It works but has the obligatory dented dust cap that's been pushed back out by the previous owner. I can let it go as is, or rediaphragmed. I think I also have a single stock L150 network.

[Zilch]

Vintage center channel?

A pair of LE8T's and an 035Ti. O.K., LE20-1, then, for purists, with LX4-1....

Just gotta build me a box lined with Mu metal.

OR, as suggested earlier, a new plasma or LCD whiz-bang HDTV to avoid the shielding problem altogether.... :D

WAIT! How about a Lancer 77 with the PR10 replaced with another LE10? Retune to taste. Plenty of those around; split a pair with a pal....

Ooops, they're not "3-in-line." So what? We're talkin' "Vintage" here.... :cool:

Just exploring. The point being there's already good old JBL stuff available that approaches D'Appolito design, or can be easily reconfigured into it....

[jontherev]

Originally posted by Giskard
I've got a single 033. It works but has the obligatory dented dust cap that's been pushed back out by the previous owner. I can let it go as is, or rediaphragmed. I think I also have a single stock L150 network.

Sorry, but I'm a bit slow catching on to the vernacular here. By network, do you mean the crossover and associated wires?:o I'd probably like to have the 033 rediaphragmed, if it needs it. Between you and Gordon, it looks like I have everything I need except the 128H, other than reconing the mid, and rediaphragming that 033. However, I'll probably wait to obtain all of these materials until I can find me a 128H. And that will have to wait until at least next pay period.:( If you guys can hold on to this stuff, I would be much appreciative. We can work out prices, etc. via email. Gordon, if we hook up over this, drinks are on me!:cheers: Dang, my system's gonna see a dramatic improvement once I add the new 033, an amp, and this hopeful center L112/150 hybrid.:D You guys rock!

[jontherev]

I just checked some pricing on rediaphragming, reconing, etc. and it looks like it's a LOT cheaper to just buy them on ebay (assuming you find one in good condition). For example, there's 2 044's on ebay now going for like $50. Hmmm, now it's got my mind wandering about purchasing THOSE for use in my L150, and using my incoming 033 (or my old one) for use in this center channel speaker. Hmmm.

[Michael]

Heres something that might help you come up with some ideas.

http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/wray/miscellaneous/4311_centre.jpg

We found a single 4311 many years ago and were able to modify it so it could sit sideways, with the attenuators and JBL badge still at the top.

[Charley Rummel]

Well, the Fender Bandmaster with the Baldwin cab is a pretty cool option...:D

Any thoughts?

Regards,
Charley

[JBL 4645]

Like Wiget has said, if you're sitting in the middle you don't HAVE to have a center speaker for movies. For DVD-A or SACD you will want 5 identical full range speakers.
I have 5 L212s and 3 subs. The small sub is connected to the center L212 and the two sub1500s are connected to the sub out on the pre/pro thru a K2 amp. With this setup the 2 sub1500s are always on and the small sub is only on if the center is activated.
I made my L/R mains into mirror image, this gives me a better soundstage for stereo. If I run 2 channel music thru the prologic decoder, activating the center channel, the soundstage collapes.

But a movie like "We Were Soldiers" with 5.1 DD, the sound was much better with the center channel on, as apposed to sending the center info to the L/R speakers.

The better your pre/pro or receiver the better your system will perform. I think I'm going to get a Lexicon pre/pro, a big upgrade to the Marantz receiver I'm using as a pre/pro.

Ideally if the pink noise sounds the same when it cycles from (depending on the AVR it might start from left or start from right) point is the tone should sound the same when it leaves left and sound on centre then right and then left surround and right surround.

Its not easy in most cases to get the tone to sound the same even with matching speakers that (are spaced over the front in different locations) as long as they are placed at the same height level that should take care of some of the issues.

EQ it can ether take minutes (with some automatic EQ like Audyssey) or hours that leads into days with basic PEQ to get the channels to sound the same.

I know what the mix sounds like on “We Were Solders” I’ve listened to it plenty of times.

There is one moment were there’s a (circle dialogue pan) that moves around along with the camera as Gibson’s character Lt. Col. Hal Moore, evaluates the situation, the radio operator’s voice goes from centre to right along the sidewall surround arrays and over to centre back surround arrays its so confusing as its got bullets whizzing though the air explosions in the background yelling and shouting. (Chapter 14, time 01:34:56 to 01:35:26) - Hastings! -“Broken Arrow!”

Also you have to remember with DOLBY STEREO pro-logic (4.2.4 matrix) its always going to create a large degree of crosstalk with centre front which isn’t a true discrete front nor is the matrix surround as that has crosstalk coming off from the front left and right often sometimes a small degree of dialogue is heard on the matrix monaural surround.

The pro-logic has its pros and cons if you know how to tame to the beast.

It as advantages with creating extra channels in diy custom surround set-up and its been used in the professional field with DOLBY-EX only limited it’s a shame studios haven’t encoded enough on the rear extra channel (and that has nothing to do with centre back surround) that channel is the same as the centre front if reversed around the other way.

Most AVR don’t have the matrix rear surround which Dolby labs kinder screwed up themselves when allowing there so called DOLBY-EX out on the market place some 9 years ago, now.

Any DOLBY Pro-logic decoder can be mated with the surround outputs just like the professional layout in cinemas, its no secret.

Thou I haven’t heard “We Were Soldiers” (2002) at the cinema that used the overheard matrix surround which was on limited engagement and I think only one cinema in the USA used it.

Sonic boom Todd-AO/Soundelux and Dolby labs experiment with Sonic Whole Overhead Sound
http://www.smartdevicesinc.com/pdf/sonic_boom.pdf

I’ve fitted up a matching array of JBL control 1 around the room up x12 surrounds for matching all-around on the surround. When I look around chapter15 I hear crickets “I am surrounded!”:p

[JBL 4645]

Didya notice you just replied to a thread where the last post was from July 2004?
Perhaps they've been waiting for 6 years for your answer?
Or perhaps they've moved on over all these years and already found their answer ...

No flames, just amazed every time you dig up these old old threads to find someone to talk to ...

No I’m just talking to a ghost thread. I thought I’d spark it, off with some afterlife.:p