Something wrong here with my 4343 mid-range?

[pyonc]

Hi,

I've purchased my 4343 from a JBL senior member here recently, and has found only today that
the cone and surrounds of mid-range 2121 on right and left speakers are somewhat different. This person said to me about this 4343, "Never a repair, all original", except for the surrounds. As I'm only a beginner, I didn't notice the difference between them at the time. Pls take a look at the photos attached. Can you check out the difference of the cone color, and the outer surrounds of the pair? And can this affect the mid-range sound of this pair? After listening to CDs or LPs, frankly I'm not sure about the difference at this point, though. Thanks for your feedback and advice in advance.

[John]

They look the same to me except for a sloppy glue line on one dust cap compared to the other!:blink:

Oh and the outer surround is wider on one?

[pyonc]

They look the same to me except for a sloppy glue line on one dust cap compared to the other!:blink:

Oh and the outer surround is wider on one?

Yes, the outer surround in the top picture is a little bit wider than the other one.
And the color of the cone is also different. I'm not sure if it's been discolored due to exposure to sunlight...

[hjames]

Yes, the outer surround in the top picture is a little bit wider than the other one.
And the color of the cone is also different. I'm not sure if it's been discolored due to exposure to sunlight...

my 4341s had a pair of (incorrect for that model) 2123s. Original 212s are no longer available and were replaced by the model 2122 - so I had one of the members recone a fresh set of 2122s for me from some cores he had.
Its a bit pricey, but knowing its right is worth it.
Having a matched pair (for all of your drivers) is the desired end ...

[4313B]

I'd get them both reconed with a matched pair of kits. Yeah they cost a chunk of change but these aren't Radio Shack specials from some Salvation Army depot. If you want "cheap" you picked the wrong brand of loudspeaker. Get someone who has alot of pride in JBL transducers to do the recones though otherwise you'll end up with a generic job.

[opimax]

I was there last night and noticed this. I don't know which is the correct one but did notice the difference. Are the correct kits still available?

when we played test tones They started losing steam at around 60 hz they would move to 16hz but no "sound"(not expecting to play 16) how low would the these go? We had no meter to actually see the drop off.

I believe they sounded better :) than what he is writing here but everyone ears are different. I brought over a adcom GFA555 amp and gft 400 pre(i think that is the number) which he is comparing to his very pretty (the term mint is appropriate!) marrantz receiver. I have offered to trade him :) :)

I have recommended since he plans on upgrading anyway to skip the mid range stuff like the adcom and get something that is real hi fi to go with these speakers. bi amp w/tubes up top? haven't really heard tubes stuff.

I think they will be placed where they are with in his house because that is about the only place available so only minor changes in speaker placement are available. I was wondering about spikes to take them off the carpet, no experience so don't know much about this if there is a short ver/recommendation please explain to him/me..

Mark

[pyonc]

I'd get them both reconed with a matched pair of kits. Yeah they cost a chunk of change but these aren't Radio Shack specials from some Salvation Army depot. If you want "cheap" you picked the wrong brand of loudspeaker. Get someone who has alot of pride in JBL transducers to do the recones though otherwise you'll end up with a generic job.

Thanks for your advice.
But I wonder if the reconing gets you better mid-range sound than now.
At least the cones here look intact, with no damaged dustcap. :blink:

[pyonc]

I was there last night and noticed this. I don't know which is the correct one but did notice the difference. Are the correct kits still available?

when we played test tones They started losing steam at around 60 hz they would move to 16hz but no "sound"(not expecting to play 16) how low would the these go? We had no meter to actually see the drop off.

I believe they sounded better :) than what he is writing here but everyone ears are different. I brought over a adcom GFA555 amp and gft 400 pre(i think that is the number) which he is comparing to his very pretty (the term mint is appropriate!) marrantz receiver. I have offered to trade him :) :)

I have recommended since he plans on upgrading anyway to skip the mid range stuff like the adcom and get something that is real hi fi to go with these speakers. bi amp w/tubes up top? haven't really heard tubes stuff.

I think they will be placed where they are with in his house because that is about the only place available so only minor changes in speaker placement are available. I was wondering about spikes to take them off the carpet, no experience so don't know much about this if there is a short ver/recommendation please explain to him/me..

Mark

Thanks a lot for your time and efforts last night.
I'll try more with your pre/ power amp during the weekend.:applaud:

[pyonc]

my 4341s had a pair of (incorrect for that model) 2123s. Original 212s are no longer available and were replaced by the model 2122 - so I had one of the members recone a fresh set of 2122s for me from some cores he had.
Its a bit pricey, but knowing its right is worth it.
Having a matched pair (for all of your drivers) is the desired end ...

I wish I had detected this difference at the time of my long email exchanges with this seller, a senior JBL member here. He didn't mention this different pair to me...:(

[Robh3606]

I was wondering about spikes to take them off the carpet, no experience so don't know much about this if there is a short ver/recommendation please explain to him/me..


Definately get them up off the floor they will sound better. I have mine on up about 10" on short wheeled stands so they are easy to move around. Also watch the height of the 2405. You want them to line up with your seated head height. They are very directional in the vertical so you can use a short stand to get them set right.


when we played test tones They started losing steam at around 60 hz they would move to 16hz but no "sound"(not expecting to play 16) how low would the these go?

I get good respone down to about 25Hz in my room with my 4344. They should be solid down to at least 30hz or so. I am in a smaller cabinet so they should defienately get down there.



Something wrong here with my 4343 mid-range?


Yes and No

They don't match so they are different age cones. I have photo's of at least 3 versions of the 2121 cones which includes the 2 you show. As long as the cone kits have the same parameters they will be acoustically identicle. We know for a fact that some of the kits are different when reissued. The 2108 8" midrange used in the 4315 being a prime example. I don't know if those 2 kits are different or not. As long as they sound the same you should be OK. If it bugs you get them reconed.

Rob:)

[pyonc]

Yes and No

They don't match so they are different age cones. I have photo's of at least 3 versions of the 2121 cones which includes the 2 you show. As long as the cone kits have the same parameters they will be acoustically identicle. We know for a fact that some of the kits are different when reissued. The 2108 8" midrange used in the 4315 being a prime example. I don't know if those 2 kits are different or not. As long as they sound the same you should be OK. If it bugs you get them reconed.

Rob:)[/QUOTE]

I'm greatly relieved to hear your explanation, Rob. If that's the case, I can forget about this mid-range cone issue once and for all, at least for now. Frankly I don't see that much difference of sound from this pair, but let me try one more this time. :)

[PaulB]

OK, just a quick chiming in here since it's late... I was asked to have a peek, since as some of you may recall, I was the original (yes original) owner of these (assuming they are the ones that I'm told they are).

I'm really stretching my memory here but I know the woofer surrounds were replaced by me, with OEM rings at a local JBL Pro dealer long ago. I'm 99.9% sure that the mids were all original at the time of sale approx 5-6 years ago... clearly the upper one is the benchmark...hopefully this helps clarify a bit?

[BMWCCA]

I'm really stretching my memory here but I know the woofer surrounds were replaced by me, with OEM rings at a local JBL Pro dealer long ago.
It's always been my understanding that there is no such thing as an Original Equipment replacement surround available from JBL. :dont-know:

[pyonc]

OK, just a quick chiming in here since it's late... I was asked to have a peek, since as some of you may recall, I was the original (yes original) owner of these (assuming they are the ones that I'm told they are).

I'm really stretching my memory here but I know the woofer surrounds were replaced by me, with OEM rings at a local JBL Pro dealer long ago. I'm 99.9% sure that the mids were all original at the time of sale approx 5-6 years ago... clearly the upper one is the benchmark...hopefully this helps clarify a bit?

Thanks so much for telling the truth, Paul.:applaud:Actually, before I bought these from Paul's high-school pal in Feb. at $3,900, I asked him whether he'd them repaired before, and he said NO, except for the woofer surrounds that he said Paul replaced several years ago. So, I just trusted him because he's a senior member here, and I had some sort of conviction that members in this forum value mutual trust and integrity above all, especially when it comes to buying and selling among each other. Paul's friend might have felt it necessary to replace one of the mid-range drivers for some reason, but he still should have told me about it frankly when I asked him about the repair history of these 4343. I'm just disappointed and annoyed at him as I've come to know about this only now.:( But I want to let bygones be bygones, because they're already in my hands, and I want to focus on getting the best out of them now and in the future. Thanks again, Paul.

[PaulB]

Well, this was probably 10-15 years ago so my recollection may be off, but I thinkkkk I was told the surrounds were a JBL product. I do know that these guys (who I believe are gone now) were JBL pro dealers and the repairs were purdy darned pricey but I told them I wanted absolutely flawless results.

BTW as to the low end response question... I drove these in biamp mode, with a pair of Crown DC300As, and when I would periodically run a freq sweep just by ear they routinely rattled the dishes at 20Hz. So I'm gonna guess that if you have a lack of low end, it's not the speakers but what's feeding them ;)

[pyonc]

Well, this was probably 10-15 years ago so my recollection may be off, but I thinkkkk I was told the surrounds were a JBL product. I do know that these guys (who I believe are gone now) were JBL pro dealers and the repairs were purdy darned pricey but I told them I wanted absolutely flawless results.

BTW as to the low end response question... I drove these in biamp mode, with a pair of Crown DC300As, and when I would periodically run a freq sweep just by ear they routinely rattled the dishes at 20Hz. So I'm gonna guess that if you have a lack of low end, it's not the speakers but what's feeding them ;)

Thanks again for this kind explanation. I turst you on this, Paul. I'm going to biamp soon, and I hope that will tell me some more about this response of mid-drivers.

[PaulB]

I'm truly saddened to see by the most recent emails and pics that I was sent that one of the midranges was replaced :( I treated those speakers like children, not to be overly dramatic. I know I am essentially a non member here, but I've loved JBL since the 70s and still own them so it breaks my heart to see them mistreated and a new member apparently mislead... that's no way to perpetuate the heritage :(

[SEAWOLF97]

So, I just trusted him because he's a senior member here.

All that "senior member here" means is that person has passed the milestone of 100 posts....take a look - you are now a senior member too..;) (101 posts)

[pyonc]

All that "senior member here" means is that person has passed the milestone of 100 posts....take a look - you are now a senior member too..;) (101 posts)

Oh, I didn't know this! Thanks for this unexpected reminder. I'm still a beginner in this long journey to audioland, so I'm just humbled. I just thought "a senior member" should do something befitting a "senior member", given his or her dedication and passion to this forum and consideration for forum members...

[BMWCCA]

I can't seem to find a thread dealing with your purchase of this system, only a thread started by you asking to find a pair. Always a good idea for a novice to ask questions of the forum community before embarking on a major purchase of a vintage monitor. I know I relied on this group for their opinion on several systems before I took the plunge.

I'm sorry for your problems but it's not like you don't have the basic building blocks for a killer system. I hope you get there soon so you can enjoy it. :cheers:

[PaulB]

. I just thought "a senior member" should do something befitting a "senior member", given his or her dedication and passion to this forum and consideration for forum members...

I agree that this should be the premise in a forum such as this one, sorry that wasn't the case. Although I'm far from a regular contributor here, I can say that it is a great resource and full of ethical, helpful people...

[pyonc]

I can't seem to find a thread dealing with your purchase of this system, only a thread started by you asking to find a pair. Always a good idea for a novice to ask questions of the forum community before embarking on a major purchase of a vintage monitor. I know I relied on this group for their opinion on several systems before I took the plunge.

I'm sorry for your problems but it's not like you don't have the basic building blocks for a killer system. I hope you get there soon so you can enjoy it. :cheers:

Thanks for your interest and concern. Next time I'll do so as you've advised.
This is my thread on this:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?27643-4343-wanted&highlight=4343+wanted

And this forum member sent me a PM, and that started it all just between me and him.
As he sent me a PM, I just thought it's impolite and embarrassing to him
for me to ask our forum members here through an open thread whether his asking price was legitimate,
or his description of "in near mint condition" was right, as he explained to me.
As I said, I just want to let bygones be bygones, and focus on getting the best sound out of them. :)

[pyonc]

I agree that this should be the premise in a forum such as this one, sorry that wasn't the case. Although I'm far from a regular contributor here, I can say that it is a great resource and full of ethical, helpful people...

That's why I turn to this forum at least a couple of times every day as a JBL lover.
I get so much valuable insight and information from lots of members here, especially senior members.:)

[edgewound]

Hi,

I've purchased my 4343 from a JBL senior member here recently, and has found only today that
the cone and surrounds of mid-range 2121 on right and left speakers are somewhat different. This person said to me about this 4343, "Never a repair, all original", except for the surrounds. As I'm only a beginner, I didn't notice the difference between them at the time. Pls take a look at the photos attached. Can you check out the difference of the cone color, and the outer surrounds of the pair? And can this affect the mid-range sound of this pair? After listening to CDs or LPs, frankly I'm not sure about the difference at this point, though. Thanks for your feedback and advice in advance.

It turns out that I was the reconer on the 2121 in the bottom image. The customer sent a JBL C8R2121 recone that he had acquired through an outside supply channel....But it IS an OEM JBL kit.

BTW, John...the glue line is not sloppy. The CP Moyen glue does not photograph very well with a flash since it's much a glossier finish than the good old black bostik from days of yore.

The top image is in fact an OEM JBL 2121 as well...with an incorrect surround and incorrect felt dust cap with a glue lip.

As was mentioned by Robh3606, OEM recone kits can vary in cosmetic appearance over the decades due to supplier variations to the factory. The variations can range from color to trim ring to cone hardness/softness...which will alter the sound characteristics. The only way to get a matched pair of OLD speakers is to recone in pairs.

BTW...no matter what anyone ever tells you...

The JBL Factory has NEVER supplied replacement foam surrounds for JBL Professional products.

[pyonc]

It turns out that I was the reconer on the 2121 in the bottom image. The customer sent a JBL C8R2121 recone that he had acquired through an outside supply channel....But it IS an OEM JBL kit.

BTW, John...the glue line is not sloppy. The CP Moyen glue does not photograph very well with a flash since it's much a glossier finish than the good old black bostik from days of yore.

The top image is in fact an OEM JBL 2121 as well...with an incorrect surround and incorrect felt dust cap with a glue lip.

As was mentioned by Robh3606, OEM recone kits can vary in cosmetic appearance over the decades due to supplier variations to the factory. The variations can range from color to trim ring to cone hardness/softness...which will alter the sound characteristics. The only way to get a matched pair of OLD speakers is to recone in pairs.

BTW...no matter what anyone ever tells you...

The JBL Factory has NEVER supplied replacement foam surrounds for JBL Professional products.

Thanks, edgewound, for this valuable information I've been looking for. I think I have to give a serious thought to having them reconed sooner or later.