JBL 2226/2446/Be/350hz round wooden Edgar tractix horns

[spkrman57]

Recently there was a thread concerning Be diaphrams in JBL compression drivers which has a wealth on information and some amazing testing in which the results were shared with all the forum members.

Unfortunately the thread hit the skids and became closed.

Well, this thread has nothing to do with the testing, but it does have to do with my actually using Be diaphrams in JBL 2446 compression drivers on my 350hz Edgar tractix horns.

I had just broke in a 2-way crossover (4-Pi with components for 16 ohm LF/HF sections) with my 500hz Edgarhorns powered by Altec 299 drivers w/fresh aluminum diaphrams.

I swapped one horn at a time to guage the difference in efficiency vs the rated efficiency (JBL 2446 @ 113 db/watt vs the Altec 299 @ 115 db/watt).

I expected to have to reduce the attenuation, but actually I found the JBL's to sound more bright and alive, and I doubt I will change attenuation quite yet.

These diaphrams have not been broke in yet, so I will post more results as I get them optimized into my system. There is a definite a more open-air sound than the Altec 399's on the 500hz horns.

I previously had a pair of EV DH1-A's on these 350hz horns back last year, and they don't come close to this sound.

I will post more as I get more listening time to see what all I'm hearing, and making sure I'm not imagining these just because I have them and they are new to me.

My speakers are driven by a 300B SET tube amp @ 8 wpc!

They definitely sound VERY, VERY nice!!!

Regards,
Ron

This is a NON-professional opinion thread, I'm just a DIY'er with a little experience with tinkering!

[doucanoe]

Very cool indeed, Ron!


I look forward to hearing your thoughts as things settle in. After a great start with the guys, it looks like the 2446 might just end up being the vehicle that brings the Be diaphragm to the dance.

For me, maybe someday, maybe someday...


RC

[eso]

The Edgar 350 Hz round tractrix horns were designed for 2" format compression drivers, so they should sound better with one instead of a 1.4" format driver that requires a throat adapter, regardless of diaphram differences.

Not to say the the BE diaphram isn't an improvement. Quite likely it does provide extended bandwidth.

I've been following the TureXtent Diaphram threads with interest, and want to try out some 1" format for my Coaxial experiments once they become available.

Have you used tweeters with your system? My main horn system have 280Hx round tractrix horns with 2440 drivers and Fostex T925a alnico horn tweeters and I get plenty of high frequency extension, and detail using stock JBL diaphrams.


eso

[robertbartsch]

What was the cost of the BE diaphragms if I might ask?

I have one similar system in my basement; drivers are 2225, 2445 and 2402. I'm not a fan of Ti frames but the use of a UHF tweeter seems to eliminate much of the annoying harshness of Ti....

[spkrman57]

Have you used tweeters with your system?
eso

I don't care to use tweeters if I don't have to as I can get some incredible holographic imaging with my round horns and a good 15" LF on the bottom.

I'm also over the age of 50 and my hearing is not what it used to be. I can hear to approx 14 khz, after that there's not much.

I will say that I don't feel the need for tweeters with this setup!

Regards, Ron

[spkrman57]

What was the cost of the BE diaphragms if I might ask?

I have one similar system in my basement; drivers are 2225, 2445 and 2402. I'm not a fan of Ti frames but the use of a UHF tweeter seems to eliminate much of the annoying harshness of Ti....

I did some horse-trading for my diaphrams, but I'm sure Dan or Brad will contact you.

The beauty of the Be diaphrams is that you get the extension of the Ti diaphrams, without the annoying sizzle that Ti brings along.

Ron

[Mr. Widget]

Looks like fun... and I bet it does sound great.

I've got a question about your horns. How does that plywood mount work? Is it a straight 2" bore or is it part of the horn's tractrix taper?


Widget

[spkrman57]

Looks like fun... and I bet it does sound great.

I've got a question about your horns. How does that plywood mount work? Is it a straight 2" bore or is it part of the horn's tractrix taper?


Widget

The 2" throat starts the taper on the 350 hz Edgar tractix horns.

I can't wait until these diaphrams get broke-in!

I wonder how long Be takes to break-in?

It sounds pretty good right from the start though, I can hear the changing of the tonal character as she gets more time cook'n in!

Regards, Ron

[spkrman57]

I'm currently using 1.6 khz crossover and while I'm listening to these diaphrams break-in I'll be building my 800 hz crossover.

I think 800 hz will sound pretty good. I can't say I can find anything wrong with the 1.6 khz crossover either.

I don't know what this would sound like with SS, but with tubes is very open and alive.

Actually I can't come up with the proper words to describe the sound I'm hearing.

Easiest thing that comes to mind is "non-fatiguing". Most folks don't like horns because they can be fatiguing if not set up right, or they just don't have a decent response curve to them.

Ron

[grumpy]

pardon my crayon-like drawing... I'm re-asking Widget's question
graphically, because I didn't understand your response:

[spkrman57]

not the JBL 2446.

I'm not the expert on the 2446, but the Edgar horn flare starts at the throat where the driver is mounted.

Ron

[grumpy]

:)Thanks. Made it into my thick skull this time.

[djnagle]

The Edgar 350 Hz round tractrix horns were designed for 2" format compression drivers, so they should sound better with one instead of a 1.4" format driver that requires a throat adapter, regardless of diaphram differences.

Not to say the the BE diaphram isn't an improvement. Quite likely it does provide extended bandwidth.

I've been following the TureXtent Diaphram threads with interest, and want to try out some 1" format for my Coaxial experiments once they become available.

Have you used tweeters with your system? My main horn system have 280Hx round tractrix horns with 2440 drivers and Fostex T925a alnico horn tweeters and I get plenty of high frequency extension, and detail using stock JBL diaphrams.


eso

Hey Eso, I have the 2440 on 400hz horns and I had them on the Edgars as well. The 244X Be is night and day compared to the stock diaphragms. No need for a tweeter with the Be.

[Mr. Widget]

The 244X Be is night and day compared to the stock diaphragms.Very cool... I never liked Ti myself, though I must admit I haven't experimented with the aquaplas coated versions.


No need for a tweeter with the Be.I am not so sure this is a universal truth. ;)


Widget

[spkrman57]

would most likely be a individual preference.

I have a sensitivity to UHF notes that give me earaches when voiced too hot, so I prefer a slightly rolled off upper HF response.

I also can't hear up to 20 khz, so it's a easy decision for me.

Last night when I finally shut the system down I finally decided that the HF extension was better than any other MF/HF horn driver I've heard before. I'm not counting tweeter horns, only compression drivers and horns that could be crossed over @ 1.6 khz and lower.

This compression driver and Be diaphram on the 350 hz Edgarhorns is doing the job quite nicely for me. Others may require a tweeter, but not me!

Ron

[eso]

I am not so sure this is a universal truth. ;)


Widget


Depending on the crossover point one is potentially asking a driver for 5+ octaves. While do-able, in many applications a higher quality will be achieved by dividing up that duty.



I have a sensitivity to UHF notes that give me earaches when voiced too hot, so I prefer a slightly rolled off upper HF response.

I also can't hear up to 20 khz, so it's a easy decision for me.

Last night when I finally shut the system down I finally decided that the HF extension was better than any other MF/HF horn driver I've heard before. I'm not counting tweeter horns, only compression drivers and horns that could be crossed over @ 1.6 khz and lower.

This compression driver and Be diaphram on the 350 hz Edgarhorns is doing the job quite nicely for me. Others may require a tweeter, but not me!

Ron

That sensitivity is possibly due iun part to harshness from drivers working outside their optimal range. Smoother high frequencies are one of the big benefits of a good supertweeter. I too am over 50, and I spent over 15 years playing very loud abrasive music and abusing my hearing. In spite of that I have somehow come out of that with reasonably acute hearing and the articulation of a good tweeter makes listening less fatiguing and more pleasurable for me.

My 4-way horn system produced a very holographic image due to careful planning and a huge helping of good old fashioned luck.

I still listen to my big ol' A5s in my shop nearly every day, and my monitor project is a 2-way coax, so don't get defensive and think I'm attacking here. There are many ways to skin a cat and each of us has his/her own preferences.

As I have said I've been following reports on these diaphrams with great interest as they may be a step taken as I work on improving an already great monitor.

eso

[spkrman57]

Not matter how good the system, my ears really don't like the upper HF frequencies.

It's something I've experienced most of my life. I've become accustomed to it.

I must be one of those rare individuals that the situation happens to.

Even naturally occurring UHF sounds bother me (that takes speakers out of the equation).

But even though I can't hear beyond 14 khz, I can sense when the notes are reaching higher than that.

Ron

[Mr. Widget]

The need for a tweeter when using Be diaphrams... would most likely be a individual preference.That was my point. The perceived need for a tweeter or lack of that need is a personal preference and not a universal truth.

Many older members on this forum have successfully used older Altec and JBL 1" drivers as well as more modern Be and Ti drivers in two-way systems and are quite pleased with the results. In my experience using any of these drivers with passive or active EQ to "extend" the range creates a rather harsh upper end that I don't care for. If you use the horn's natural flair and no EQ the upper end of all of them is a bit rolled off and dull sounding. Obviously I haven't heard every horn and driver combo out there, but I have heard a number of the most popular and a few very exotic examples and even the mega dollar Be models that purportedly don't need a tweeter sounded (and measured) better with a dedicated tweeter.

For those who use a tractrix and enjoy the imaging that they can offer in a properly set up two-way... I have heard these systems augmented by tweeters that were crossed over at fairly high frequencies (~10KHz) and found the theoretical (and measured) lack of coherence not to be a problem... for me at least.


Widget

[spkrman57]

I decided to disconnect one end of the EQ cap and listen for a day or 2 and see what I think.

The only soldering that I did to build this crossover was for the L-pads, the rest of everything else is connected via wire nuts and screw terminal barrier strips.

I plan on dismantling the crossovers when the newer 800 hz crossovers are built. It will take all of 5 mins to have a box full of parts for future use.

I will report back when I have more listening time without the EQ!

Thanks for the idea Widget! I will decide in a day or 2 which way I'll keep it.

Ron

[4313B]

The Everest II seemed to work just fine with the supertweeter coming on at 20 kHz. :p

If I'm not mistaken JBL brought in the 045Be around 15 kHz in the S9900 and 10 kHz in the S9800.

Honestly though, the 045Be is an example of an excellent ultra high frequency device with the requisite aperture to properly deal with ultra high frequencies. It does things that a larger aperature compression driver is physically incapable of doing. Too bad we can't buy them separately. :rotfl:

Oops! My Bad!

http://www.harman-japan.co.jp/product/jblhome/ut045be.html

￥500,000 = $5,352.50

[spkrman57]

I did not like the sound w/out the EQ cap after hearing it with the cap.

Sorry I could not listen longer w/out the cap.

It does tell me what I need to know though, I like the sound that is coming out of these horns.

My 300B SET tube amp is a nice match for this speaker system.

Ron

[4313B]

It does tell me what I need to know though, I like the sound that is coming out of these horns.That's pretty much all that matters.

[spkrman57]

I'm thinking of 800 hz 12db/oct LP - 18db/oct HP.

Is there anything on what you measured that would indicate a specific crossover frequency that I should shoot for?

Mainly I thinking that 600hz would be absolute bottom considering the tractix curve on these horns, and I'm already at 1.6khz which is probably too high to utilize the horns/drivers to their best potential.

Send me a PM if you don't want to post on the forum!

Thanks Ron



That's pretty much all that matters.

[4313B]

Is there anything on what you measured that would indicate a specific crossover frequency that I should shoot for?Looking at the data I have of your horn it looks like the 6 dB downpoint is around 600 to 650 Hz.

But I'd have to measure the woofer and horn together and see where their nulls occured.

I'm thinking of 800 hz 12db/oct LP - 18db/oct HP.
Mainly I thinking that 600hz would be absolute bottom considering the tractix curve on these horns, and I'm already at 1.6khz which is probably too high to utilize the horns/drivers to their best potential.You probably want to shoot for a 24 dB/octave acoustical LR. What kind of electrical filters you need to achieve that is unknown. You can exploit the natural roll-off of the horn/c.d. and end up using a 12 dB/octave electrical LR to yield the 24 dB/octave acoustical LR. The woofer response is unknown. What kind of electrical filter it needs I couldn't say.

Those are the subwoofer test boxes I made and then passed on to Mike years ago? I have no idea how the 2226 behaves in them. They seem pretty low to the ground for a woofer being used up into the midbass region?

[spkrman57]

Looking at the data I have of your horn it looks like the 6 dB downpoint is around 600 to 650 Hz.

But I'd have to measure the woofer and horn together and see where their nulls occured.
You probably want to shoot for a 24 dB/octave acoustical LR. What kind of electrical filters you need to achieve that is unknown. You can exploit the natural roll-off of the horn/c.d. and end up using a 12 dB/octave electrical LR to yield the 24 dB/octave acoustical LR. The woofer response is unknown. What kind of electrical filter it needs I couldn't say.

Those are the subwoofer test boxes I made and then passed on to Mike years ago? I have no idea how the 2226 behaves in them. They seem pretty low to the ground for a woofer being used up into the midbass region?

I will probably raise the 2226 cabs off the ground approx 8" to 12".

WT2 gave these results for vented box test:

Fsb 55hz - 58hz
alpha .87 - .73
Ha .66 -.61
Fm 36hz - 36hz
flo 25hz - 26hz
fhi 80hz - 81hz
Zlo 37 ohms - 34 ohms
Zhi 61 ohms - 59 ohms
Zmid 12 ohms - 12 ohms

Cabinet is approx 3 cu ft not counting the ports and 2226 driver. The 2226J is the 16 ohm model, I'm working on procuring a pair of 2226H (8 ohm) in the near future and see which works better for me.

I would be interested in new cabinets for the 2226's in the future that would better fit my new system. Basically a taller cabinet with the driver mounted near the top, more width and less depth overall similiar to a JBL 3677 cabinet. I need to have a minimum of 11" depth so the horn won't fall off the top sitting on a home-made cradle.

You turned off your PM's, so I'll shoot you a e-mail over the weekend.

Regards, Ron

[4313B]

I meant the response of the woofer in the box around the crossover frequency.
You turned off your PM's:blink: I did?

[spkrman57]

After 30 hrs of playing time thus far I hear the sound smoothing out.

I don't know how long Be takes to break-in, but the detail is rising out of the music. Now I'm noticing how I need a better crossover to get more out of this system.

Ron

[Mr. Widget]

After 30 hrs of playing time thus far I hear the sound smoothing out.

I don't know how long Be takes to break-in, but the detail is rising out of the music. Now I'm noticing how I need a better crossover to get more out of this system.It would be the surround that is breaking in... not the Be.

FWIW: I haven't noticed much if any break in with the TADs with Be surrounds.


Widget

[spkrman57]

Yeah, there might not be much break-in on these. But I will admit after the 1st 20 hrs sounded smoother!:)

Ron


It would be the surround that is breaking in... not the Be.

FWIW: I haven't noticed much if any break in with the TADs with Be surrounds.


Widget

[spkrman57]

Hi all!


I get to borrow these until I get my own built. they are Radial Tractix(?) made with poplar designed for a Fc (flare cutoff) of 248 Hz. I'm running JBL 2446 2" compression drivers w/Be diaphrams.

Compared to my 350 Hz Edgarhorns these require much more EQ and I had to attenuate them less. They are approx 4 db less efficient.

I'm currently using 1.6 khz crossover, but will change to 800 hz crossover whenever I get the chance to build them.

They sound very large (just like their physical size) and there is still work to be done on these (horn/driver transition), but they sound very nice!

Measurements:

H = 17"
W = 23.5" (straight across the front opening)
D = 14.5" (horn only) (with driver included: 22")

Ron sends....

[cosmos]

Compared to my 350 Hz Edgarhorns these require much more EQ and I had to attenuate them less. They are approx 4 db less efficient.

Ron, I think it's normal to add more HF compensation and loose a little efficiency in a wide angle horn compared to a very focused horn like the Edgarhorn. By way of the electronic crossover, I add about 10 db at 20KHz in a 12db/octave HP boost. This would mean that I am adding 4 db at 15Khz and 1 db at 12.5Khz.

In any case, I am pretty confident that you'll get them dialed in.

They image pretty darn well, but I don't think any horn images as well as a full Tractrix.

[spkrman57]

I think since these HF horns are so LARGE that a folded corner horn is in order to do the bottom end to match the dispersion characteristics of the HF horn.

I should be able to make that happen by beginning of next week.

Regards, Ron

[robertbartsch]

I have a similar system comprised of a 2225 and 2445. I've never been a fan of Ti diaphragms but I have added some tweeters - 2402s, crossed at 10K. The tweets take the the annoying "tssssss" out of the Ti frames.

[djnagle]

I am not so sure this is a universal truth. ;)


Widget


Oh absolutly this is how I feel, not a universal truth. I have the big Heils for tweeters and I ran the 2441 with Radian diaphragm and it needs the tweeter. With the TrueXtent, I felt no need for a tweet.

[djnagle]

Hi all!


I get to borrow these until I get my own built. they are Radial Tractix(?) made with poplar designed for a Fc (flare cutoff) of 248 Hz. I'm running JBL 2446 2" compression drivers w/Be diaphrams.

Compared to my 350 Hz Edgarhorns these require much more EQ and I had to attenuate them less. They are approx 4 db less efficient.

I'm currently using 1.6 khz crossover, but will change to 800 hz crossover whenever I get the chance to build them.

They sound very large (just like their physical size) and there is still work to be done on these (horn/driver transition), but they sound very nice!

Measurements:

H = 17"
W = 23.5" (straight across the front opening)
D = 14.5" (horn only) (with driver included: 22")

Ron sends....

Looking good Ron. I really like the bigness of those horns. They fill my room really well and still have 90% of that tight imaging that I came to expect from my Edgarhorns. These however have more of a live concert sound to them and with GREAT detail.

Folded bass horns might be the good ticket, but after hearing Dan's speakers at AKfest with the Lambda, I am sold on those. To put this in perspective, and this is just my ear, I am passing on a pair of Sound Lab M-1PX (26K new) in order to get Dan's horns.