marantz receiver with JBL

[pyonc]

Hi,

Until I get a new gear of pre-/power-amp in the near future, I've been using Marantz 2330B (130W RMS power per channel) receiver for 4343 recently. The sound just seemd okay to me, but I was rather shocked to find there was little difference in sound quality or loudness between 4311 and 4343 when I hooked them up to the same Marantz source. With the volumn knob set at the 11 0'clock, I took turn in pushing the speaker 1 button (4343) and speaker 2 button (4311) for comparison of the sound quality, loudness, etc. The outcome is there is little or no difference between them, to my disappointment. I don't know why. :banghead:
Do you have any idea on this? Can I get any big difference between them if I turn to pre/power amp instead of receiver? Thansk for your feedback and counsel in advance.

[cosmos]

:blink:

Perhaps, you couldn't hear a difference at 15 db above the threshold of pain?

[jim3860]

It sounds like to me there may be an issue with the speaker outputs between 1 and 2 on your receiver, I would suggest hooking up the 4343's to the same outputs that you are using for your 4311's on the receiver the 4343's should smoke the 4311's on both SPL's and sound quality especially in the bass dept


.
REGARDS JIM

[Robh3606]

Well it depends on how things are set-up. There shouldn't be a big difference in apparent loudness between them. May be a couple of dB to the 4343 but that's about it. With the 4343 you have quite a bit of latitude in how they are voiced with separate attenuators on all three drivers. I have 4344's and I can make them sound like damn near anything I want just by adjusting the attenuators on the 3 top drivers.

If I were you I would do some searches about the 4343 and 4344 go from there. I would also see how the attenuators are set and start with them set flat with the compression driver down a couple of dB and see what happens.

I have always taken the position that these 4 ways are harder to set-up and balance in a home environment than most other speakers. From my point of view you should have some kind of rudimentary measurement system to balance the drivers in each cabinet and then in the stereo pair. There is a bit of slop in the attenuators and even being off a db or 2 between drivers in a stereo pair is going to screw up your imaging and potentially the balance in that speaker depending on what driver it is. They would have been better off using fixed stepped resistor attenuation as opposed to L pads.

You have to remember they were intended for a studio where 1/3 octave EQ was the norm and proper set-up was for all intents and purposes a done deal

Rob:)

[Mr. Widget]

You have to remember they were intended for a studio where 1/3 octave EQ was the norm and proper set-up was for all intents and purposes a done deal...and the proper set up was usually done by a trained technician.

If you don't hear the 4343 as the clear winner, there is something wrong. Something wrong with the speaker. Something wrong with the set up. Something wrong with the electronics. Possibly all three.


Widget

[pyonc]

...and the proper set up was usually done by a trained technician.

If you don't hear the 4343 as the clear winner, there is something wrong. Something wrong with the speaker. Something wrong with the set up. Something wrong with the electronics. Possibly all three.

------------------------------------------------

Thanks, Widget. As I said, the sound from 4343 seemed okay when hooked to the Marantz receiver. So, I don't understand what you mean when you take issue with the speaker itselt or set-up or the electronics. Could you elaborate?

To repeat, when I linked the 4311 to the receiver (Marantz 2330B has one pair of speaker input terminals on the back, so I can hook up 4311 and 4343 to each of this terminal simultaneously) for comparison with 4343, I was very much surprised to detect little difference between them. Don't you think it has something to do with the source of the amp, namely Marantz "receiver" itself? Can I expect some tangible difference when I use a pre-amp and power amp for 4343 instead of this receiver? :blink:

[pyonc]

Well it depends on how things are set-up. There shouldn't be a big difference in apparent loudness between them. May be a couple of dB to the 4343 but that's about it. With the 4343 you have quite a bit of latitude in how they are voiced with separate attenuators on all three drivers. I have 4344's and I can make them sound like damn near anything I want just by adjusting the attenuators on the 3 top drivers.

If I were you I would do some searches about the 4343 and 4344 go from there. I would also see how the attenuators are set and start with them set flat with the compression driver down a couple of dB and see what happens.

I have always taken the position that these 4 ways are harder to set-up and balance in a home environment than most other speakers. From my point of view you should have some kind of rudimentary measurement system to balance the drivers in each cabinet and then in the stereo pair. There is a bit of slop in the attenuators and even being off a db or 2 between drivers in a stereo pair is going to screw up your imaging and potentially the balance in that speaker depending on what driver it is. They would have been better off using fixed stepped resistor attenuation as opposed to L pads.

You have to remember they were intended for a studio where 1/3 octave EQ was the norm and proper set-up was for all intents and purposes a done deal

Rob:)

Thanks for your comment. Looks like you're going technical here, which I don't dare to attempt it at this point as a junior in this field. My question is this, does it have anything to do with the source of the amp, namely "receiver"? What if I hook them up to a pre-amp and power-amp? Same result? :blink:

[pyonc]

It sounds like to me there may be an issue with the speaker outputs between 1 and 2 on your receiver, I would suggest hooking up the 4343's to the same outputs that you are using for your 4311's on the receiver the 4343's should smoke the 4311's on both SPL's and sound quality especially in the bass dept


.
REGARDS JIM

Thanks for your comment. But I'm not sure I'll have the different outcome because the source, namely Marantz receiver, is still the same. The speaker terminal inputs, one pair each, are on the back of this receiver. Currently, 4343 are hooked to the upper terminals, and 4311 to the lower ones. Let me try your way, though. :blink:

[hmolwitz]

There should be no difference between the speaker taps on the amp, I would look elsewhere for improvement.
Harry

[pyonc]

...and the proper set up was usually done by a trained technician.

If you don't hear the 4343 as the clear winner, there is something wrong. Something wrong with the speaker. Something wrong with the set up. Something wrong with the electronics. Possibly all three.


Widget

Hi, Widget,

Just take a look at this set-up on the back of the Marantz 2330B receiver.
Anything wrong here? Do I need to reconfigure?
For 4343, I use 14 gauge speaker wires, and for 4311, 16 gauge.
Thanks. :blink:

[opimax]

Where in Md are you? I am inside the DC Beltway, happy to offer an opinion...

Mark

You can send me a PM if you would like

[SEAWOLF97]

I cant tell from the speaker wires ...are you maintaining correct polarity ?

[pyonc]

I cant tell from the speaker wires ...are you maintaining correct polarity ?

Thank you, Seawolf. :applaud:
What do you mean by 'correct polarity' here?
Could you elaborate for me?
If you're talking about equal length of speaker wires, I've made sure of that.
Also with respect to the connection of positive/negative terminals,
I've also made sure the speaker wires linked to their correct terminals.
I use 14 gauge wires for 4343; one is white and the other black (as you can see in the photo)
As the terminal inputs of 4343 are black and red in color, I connected black wire to the black terminal input,
and the white wire to the red terminal input. Is this correct? Do I need to connect the other way?
According to the current wire set-up, I don't hear any tangible bass sound from 4343 even with high volume.
I have no idea here too. I'm just a beginner in this audio world...

[Mr. Widget]

Thanks, Widget. As I said, the sound from 4343 seemed okay when hooked to the Marantz receiver. So, I don't understand what you mean when you take issue with the speaker itselt or set-up or the electronics. Could you elaborate?It is possible your 4343s are not up to spec... might need new diaphragms in the 2420s or 2405s, might need recones for the 2231s or 2121s, or perhaps you have issues with your crossovers. Alternatively and more likely, the L-pads might not be set to the correct settings. Finally it is possible that your Marantz isn't working correctly so any speaker will sound off.

Basically what Rob was saying was that to get the 4343s to sound right, you really need to know what you are doing or be prepared to mess around with them for some time.

Now if by "big difference in sound" you meant loudness... their specs are only 2dB apart. The big difference you should hear is deeper bass from the 4343, a more dynamic midrange, and certainly a significantly greater range in the upper most frequencies.


Widget

[jim3860]

There should be no difference between the speaker taps on the amp, I would look elsewhere for improvement.
HarryI agree there shouldndt be any difference :) But sometimes solder joints grow weak connections get dirty etc, I have been able to use certain inputs for example without issue but on other ones the sound would sound scratchy, cut in and out etc on older gear, It would within 15 secs eliminate that possibility without any cost, then move onto harder to diagnose and eliminate things. One thing I would do for sure is use the identical type and gauge of speaker cable to eliminate any possible differences there also.

REGARDS JIM

[hjames]

Have you been inside the 4343 - have you checked the polarity of how the drivers are connected to the internal crossover network?

If memory serves, with all the big 4 way crossovers, the woofer gets connected backwards compared to the other 3 drivers.

see:
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=156524&postcount=10


3143 network -
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=23582&d=1173884631

[pyonc]

Have you been inside the 4343 - have you checked the polarity of how the drivers are connected to the internal crossover network?

If memory serves, with all the big 4 way crossovers, the woofer gets connected backwards compared to the other 3 drivers.

see:
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=156524&postcount=10


3143 network -
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=23582&d=1173884631

No, hjames.The senior JBL member who recently sold this to me reassured me that all wiring on woofer is correct, though he said he messed with the woofers to get its wiring correct years ago when he bought them from the original owner. He said once the wires were correct, his bass was good. He also said he never touched the crossovers. As I'm just new to this technical stuff, I've no way of ascertaining this unless I look inside 4343 as you just mentioned, which I dare not at this point. Hope some experienced member could come to my place to check them out. ;)

[Audiobeer]

My Marantz would kick ass after it was gone through and weak components were replaced. I'd check the output power after all easy checks of the system was done. If your reciever is a little sluggish your 4343's just ain't going to the dance!

[pyonc]

My Marantz would kick ass after it was gone through and weak components were replaced. I'd check the output power after all easy checks of the system was done. If your reciever is a little sluggish your 4343's just ain't going to the dance!

Thanks, Audiobeer. The one I'm usng now, Marantz 2330B, seems to be in excellent condition. I purhcased this at $750 from an ebayer several months ago, when I just started this long journey to audioland as a beginner. In hindsight, I feel I paid too much...:(

[Wagner]

Thank you, Seawolf. :applaud:
What do you mean by 'correct polarity' here?
Could you elaborate for me?
If you're talking about equal length of speaker wires, I've made sure of that.
Also with respect to the connection of positive/negative terminals,
I've also made sure the speaker wires linked to their correct terminals.
I use 14 gauge wires for 4343; one is white and the other black (as you can see in the photo)
As the terminal inputs of 4343 are black and red in color, I connected black wire to the black terminal input,
and the white wire to the red terminal input. Is this correct? Do I need to connect the other way?
According to the current wire set-up, I don't hear any tangible bass sound from 4343 even with high volume.
I have no idea here too. I'm just a beginner in this audio world...


How does one switch form internal network to external?
Maybe a stupid question, but from what I can see in the photograph and the bi-amp-able speakers I have owned, only half the system is being feed a signal.
Is there a switch somewhere?

Enlighten the unenlightened :bouncy:

Thomas

[pyonc]

How does one switch form internal network to external?
Maybe a stupid question, but from what I can see in the photograph and the bi-amp-able speakers I have owned, only half the system is being feed a signal.
Is there a switch somewhere?

Enlighten the unenlightened :bouncy:

Thomas

I don't understand your question clearly. As the photo shows, the switch is set to internal crossover, single-amp mode, on both right and left speaker terminals on the back of 4343. Can you elaborate? Thanks

[hjames]

I don't understand your question clearly. As the photo shows, the switch is set to internal crossover, single-amp mode, on both right and left speaker terminals on the back of 4343. Can you elaborate? Thanks

In the picture below the switch is not visible -
I assume it must be underneath the black wire jacket, perhaps where the two lead emerge?

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=45148&stc=1&d=1270779793

[pyonc]

[quote=hjames;285242]In the picture below the switch is not visible -
I assume it must be underneath the black wire jacket, perhaps where the two lead emerge?

Yes, you're right. Another one, this time. Thanks.

[opimax]

I will be stopping by tomorrow to offer a quick opinion. Any specific things I can help with? I am not experienced with these, only listening to them long ago at Fred Sanford's 1st listening party we had ( :) :) )

Tomorrow I will be there for 15 min or so and schedule another trip if need when I have more time and will be solo

Mark

[mech986]

Thank you, Seawolf. :applaud:
What do you mean by 'correct polarity' here?
Could you elaborate for me?
If you're talking about equal length of speaker wires, I've made sure of that.
Also with respect to the connection of positive/negative terminals,
I've also made sure the speaker wires linked to their correct terminals.
I use 14 gauge wires for 4343; one is white and the other black (as you can see in the photo)
As the terminal inputs of 4343 are black and red in color, I connected black wire to the black terminal input,
and the white wire to the red terminal input. Is this correct? Do I need to connect the other way?
According to the current wire set-up, I don't hear any tangible bass sound from 4343 even with high volume.
I have no idea here too. I'm just a beginner in this audio world...

OK, some potential ideas.

The key here is the statement bolded above. if there is no tangible bass out of a 4343, either the woofers don't work (unlikely) or there is a polarity reversal somewhere in the chain, not necessarily at the speaker wire, speakers, or receiver terminals, although they should all be checked and verified. If both speakers sound similar, the woofers aren't in polarity. The 4311 should have the classic mid-bass pump and that hasn't been mentioned so their polarity may be off too. Imaging hasn't been mentioned and that may also explain why all the speakers don't sond different if all you're listening to is the upper mids and highs and they're out of phase.

before the below suggestions, try reversing polarity at one 4343 speaker (switch white and black wires on one speaker to the other terminals on the same speaker.). Then see if the bass comes back for that pair of speakers and the image locks into the center with a mono source. If it does, do the same for the other pair.

We don't know enough about the whole system, so we need info. You have a CD player playing into the Tape 2 In. Usually that should be on Aux 1 or two so you can use the selector switch instead of the tape monitor. Are the cables you're using ever been worked on?

Also, what type of turntable do you have and what is the cartridge installed? Did you ever change the cartridge or change the wires to tthe cartridge. Does the lack of bass happen only on the LP's or both LP and CD's. That will help us figure out where there might be a polarity issue.

With these type of semi-mysterious problems, basic audio troubleshooting must be done.

Also, this 2330B that you bought off ebay, do you know if there was ever any work done on it, including rework or repair, like relay cleaning, reworking of the amplifier modules, etc. It is alway possible there may have been a miswiring of the speaker terminals, etc.

So, can you provide more infomation, and see what happens with the simple polarity change above? Thanks!

[hjames]

I will be stopping by tomorrow to offer a quick opinion. Any specific things I can help with? I am not experienced with these, only listening to them long ago at Fred Sanford's 1st listening party we had ( :) :) )

Tomorrow I will be there for 15 min or so and schedule another trip if need when I have more time and will be solo

Mark

No no - Fred has 4333 - the big 3 ways - 15s, long horn and slot tweeter.

Pyong has the 4343 - its like the big 3 ways but with an added 10 inch midBass.
Thus, a big 4 way. He has the model that replaced my 4341s ...
its basically the same drivers but a (slightly) newer crossover (with a biamp switch) and a somewhat larger cabinet,
(with the split baffleboard, so you can rotate the 3 driver portion).

In one of the threads Greg Timbers said biamp switches can be problematic and recommended bypassing them ...

But of course, the original crossovers are now nearly 40 years old anyway -
so at a minimum, the caps should be replaced/upgraded - but since all the big 4 ways have the same 290Hz low split crossover point,
they can all use the newest crossover, and since the 4345 had the newest design of the 3 of them, you can just build a fresh 4345 crossover and use that.

That's what I will eventually do with my 4341s ... that's what they are lacking ...

[pyonc]

I will be stopping by tomorrow to offer a quick opinion. Any specific things I can help with? I am not experienced with these, only listening to them long ago at Fred Sanford's 1st listening party we had ( :) :) )

Tomorrow I will be there for 15 min or so and schedule another trip if need when I have more time and will be solo

Mark

Thanks a lot, Mark. Please give me a call when you're ready to come this afternoon! See you then. :)

[opimax]

This should sound good!!?? I figure today just listen, switch polarity on main input, just play a little. Nothing like having a nice system and it not sounding the way it should...;)

Mark

[Audiobeer]

Thanks, Audiobeer. The one I'm usng now, Marantz 2330B, seems to be in excellent condition. I purhcased this at $750 from an ebayer several months ago, when I just started this long journey to audioland as a beginner. In hindsight, I feel I paid too much...:(

Sounds like you bought one that has been gone through. I actualy like the sound of yours better than the 2325. They are nice and if you're unit is up and running as it should be I wouldn't think you overpaid. In fact it will only start appreciating!

[mech986]

So any updates? Would love to know what you found.

[pyonc]

OK, some potential ideas.

The key here is the statement bolded above. if there is no tangible bass out of a 4343, either the woofers don't work (unlikely) or there is a polarity reversal somewhere in the chain, not necessarily at the speaker wire, speakers, or receiver terminals, although they should all be checked and verified. If both speakers sound similar, the woofers aren't in polarity. The 4311 should have the classic mid-bass pump and that hasn't been mentioned so their polarity may be off too. Imaging hasn't been mentioned and that may also explain why all the speakers don't sond different if all you're listening to is the upper mids and highs and they're out of phase.

before the below suggestions, try reversing polarity at one 4343 speaker (switch white and black wires on one speaker to the other terminals on the same speaker.). Then see if the bass comes back for that pair of speakers and the image locks into the center with a mono source. If it does, do the same for the other pair.

We don't know enough about the whole system, so we need info. You have a CD player playing into the Tape 2 In. Usually that should be on Aux 1 or two so you can use the selector switch instead of the tape monitor. Are the cables you're using ever been worked on?

Also, what type of turntable do you have and what is the cartridge installed? Did you ever change the cartridge or change the wires to tthe cartridge. Does the lack of bass happen only on the LP's or both LP and CD's. That will help us figure out where there might be a polarity issue.

With these type of semi-mysterious problems, basic audio troubleshooting must be done.

Also, this 2330B that you bought off ebay, do you know if there was ever any work done on it, including rework or repair, like relay cleaning, reworking of the amplifier modules, etc. It is alway possible there may have been a miswiring of the speaker terminals, etc.

So, can you provide more infomation, and see what happens with the simple polarity change above? Thanks!

Thanks a lot for your kind comments, Mech986.
First of all, a senior JBL member nearby stopped by my house this afternoon to check the bass function, polarity, etc. He did a battery test of both woofers of 4343. The woofers moved inside when he tested them with the battery with speaker wires connected to red/black terminal inputs on the back. He judged the woofers were correct, "in phase". Then, I played LPs and CDs to compare 4343 and 4311. So, nothing wrong with the woofers. With the volumn knob set at noon, I played 4311, and heard some booming sound while I heard not much of it in 4343. My guest said he could feel the difference between them. Well, I wasn't quite sure, though. He said he would want to check the mid, high, ultra-high drivers in the upper panel later , so he could cross check if these were in phase with the woofers.

Now, it's time to play music for test. When I played a jazz LP loud (12 o'clock), and pushed the Loudness button of the Marantz receiver, the woofer cone of 4343 trembled and flapped (same with 4311), but when he pushed the 15hz filter button, the trembling stopped (same with 4311). More loudness from bass, this time. Looks like the bass sound becomes louder with Loudness button on with 15hz button. Actually I knew about this along when I played LP or CD with 4311, but didn't use the Loudness button much. I think I have to use that if I want more bass sound, though.

By the way, based on your advice, I linked the black wire to the black terminal of 4343, and the white to the red. When I played CD and LP, the sound was good, though I still was not sure which was better, compared with the prior set-up. Anyway I would like to stay with this new set-up,though.
Regarding the Tape or Aux, I pulled off the plug from Tape 1, and put it in the Aux termial, but I didn't hear any sound from the speakers. So, I went back to the Tape mode. As for the turntable and cartridge, I'm using Linn Sondek LP12 turntable, Basik Plus with Shure V15 type III. The wires to the cartridge, and the turntable cables were never changed, all original.

So, that's about it. If I'm a more learned and experienced audio man,
I would know the difference immediately, but as I'm a beginner, I just can't tell the big or subtle difference between 4343 and 4311 despite all this kind explanation and counsel by wonderful JBL members here like you. I'll keep trying to find the clues... Thanks again! :applaud:

[grumpy]

When I played a jazz LP loud (12 o'clock) , pushed the loudness button of the Marantz receiver, the woofer cone trembled and flapped, but when he pushed the 15hz button, the trembling stopped.This is clearly feedback through your turntable or to the surface of the
disc (are you using a dust cover?)... that can suck the available power
from your amp in the audio range. As the 4343's are more capable in this
range (LF), the problem is exacerbated.

4311's may be your cup of tea if you like how they reproduce sound.
There's nothing inherently wrong with that. The 4343's are a more wideband
system with less emphasis in any particular range... they were intended as
listening tools for engineers, not as home systems.

I'm not suggesting that you give up immediately, but don't worry too
much if they don't suit you. One can buy quite a few LP's for the price
of a used set of 4343's :).

BTW, to hear anything coming through the AUX input, you'd have to turn
the tape monitor OFF and set the input to AUX. If that's not working, then
there is a problem with the unit. Wish I'd been following LH while I was
working out there last week... wasn't far.

[Audiobeer]

Do just one more test. Use your 2330B as a preamp and hook up a good 200+ watt amp. I think you'll really hear a difference at that point. I wish you were local and I'd run one over!

[pyonc]

Do just one more test. Use your 2330B as a preamp and hook up a good 200+ watt amp. I think you'll really hear a difference at that point. I wish you were local and I'd run one over!

Thanks for your advice, and offer to help me.:applaud:
I see the pre-amp output terminals on the back of the 2330B.
Let me try that, and get back to you with the outcomes.

[Mr. Widget]

Has speaker placement been suggested? Sorry... I haven't read all of the posts. If it has been discussed and moving the speakers around the room has been tried... sorry to have missed it. It is just that as important as a good amp is, placement is far more significant.


Widget

[pyonc]

Has speaker placement been suggested? Sorry... I haven't read all of the posts. If it has been discussed and moving the speakers around the room has been tried... sorry to have missed it. It is just that as important as a good amp is, placement is far more significant.


Widget

Thanks, Widget. Please take a look at the speaker placement, which has not yet been discussed. 4343 sit on the basement right now, as you see, with carpet on the floor. About 30cm from the sidewall with some toe-in, and 40 inches from the rear wall. Any suggestion on the placement?
How about the volumn adjustment for ultra-hi, hi, mid? Sources: Marantz 2330B, Linn Sondek LP12 with Shure V15 type III, Nakamich CDP. The gear on the Nakamichi are 5233, 5234 channel dividing network for future use.

[JeffW]

From my experience, there is no way that the turntable is going to be stable on that rack. That's the reason you are getting LF excursion with the TT vs the CD, and loudness/volume/walking on the floor will just make it worse.

[pyonc]

From my experience, there is no way that the turntable is going to be stable on that rack. That's the reason you are getting LF excursion with the TT vs the CD, and loudness/volume/walking on the floor will just make it worse.

Thanks for your comment. What is your suggestion, then? What about the distance of the speakers from the side wall and real wall? And take a look at this volumn level for ultra-hi, hi, and mid, too. :blink:

[hjames]

Thanks, Widget. Please take a look at the speaker placement, which has not yet been discussed. 4343 sit on the basement right now, as you see, with carpet on the floor. About 30cm from the sidewall with some toe-in, and 40 inches from the rear wall. Any suggestion on the placement?
How about the volumn adjustment for ultra-hi, hi, mid? Sources: Marantz 2330B, Linn Sondek LP12 with Shure V15 type III, Nakamich CDP. The gear on the Nakamichi are 5233, 5234 channel dividing network for future use.

Okay, so the system is in your basement, on a carpeted concrete floor, correct? If it were me I'd go to Home depot and get some 12x12 marble floor tiles - you can get them for about $2-3.00 each. Buy 2 or 4 or whatever you need to cover the top shelf of your turntable rack. if it extends out the sides a little bit thats ok.
You want to add some MASS up there and make it STABLE.
Some folks have done bricks or masonry - Marble is a little nicer looking on TOP of the rack. The turntable will sit on top of that.
That should get a lot of the bass rumble out of your equipment rack.

Even nicer would be to get a set of 4 brass points and put one at the bottom of each let of your rack, You want to lock it down onto the concrete - get through any padding or carpet fabric.

If you want more bass get the 4343s off the wheeled carts!
You can make some short plinths for each and set the speakers on them. Just some short wooden bases for them to sit on ... That will help too.

[pyonc]

Okay, so the system is in your basement, on a carpeted concrete floor, correct? If it were me I'd go to Home depot and get some 12x12 marble floor tiles - you can get them for about $2-3.00 each. Buy 2 or 4 or whatever you need to cover the top shelf of your turntable rack. if it extends out the sides a little bit thats ok.
You want to add some MASS up there and make it STABLE.
Some folks have done bricks or masonry - Marble is a little nicer looking on TOP of the rack. The turntable will sit on top of that.
That should get a lot of the bass rumble out of your equipment rack.

Even nicer would be to get a set of 4 brass points and put one at the bottom of each let of your rack, You want to lock it down onto the concrete - get through any padding or carpet fabric.

If you want more bass get the 4343s off the wheeled carts!
You can make some short plinths for each and set the speakers on them. Just some short wooden bases for them to sit on ... That will help too.

Thanks a lot for your suggestion for improvement, hjames. Let me carry out your suggestions tomorrow. Hope this will bring about some good results. :applaud:

[Mr. Widget]

Unfortunately that looks like a tough space... In your current scenario you will lose some bass due to the speakers being up on the furniture dollies, but you are also gaining significant boundary reinforcement by having them in the corners... this can easily cause a "one note" bass sound. If you are sitting in the approximate middle of the length of the room, you will be sitting in a null and this will cancel a great deal of bass. (The frequencies of this cancellation will be a function of the actual room dimension.)

I would try setting it up with the speakers away from the corners along the longer wall if possible. If you do this, your listening position will necessarily be up against the opposite long wall... you will be sitting in a reinforcement node. You may like this... sort of an acoustic "loudness compensation". Doing this you might want to put some acoustic absorption behind your head... while you can't absorb the bass doing this, you can control the upper frequency reverberation and apparent time smear...


Widget

[opimax]

I spent a short time there while my date was waiting for my friend to show up w/keys to unlock my car at the Home depot parking lot. I just didn't have any time.

While not an audiophone I heard more of a differece between the the 2 sets of speakers than he did. Very nice details, a little flat sonding but a mid range hump which was set that way on the cross overs. I am not sure they are "broken" yet,. When I go back I will bring a adcom pre amp and amp and a test CD . Maybe a meter if I get one 1st. and some music with more bass to begin with.

we tested at the main inputs for phase , both woofs went in which is probably correct for these 40 yr old speakers. The surrounds were done 10 yrs ago but the rest of the woofer is origianal, might be time to have them checked.

I was thinking we copuld also check the mid bass to verify it is connected the saem and then see i they are connected properly if i can read the and find the diagram for these.

I rememeber watching the woofers move on John's (Fred S) 4333s and no sound coming from 1 and this at a quick initial thought kind of remeinded me of that...but it is early with the diags.

I am sure any other locals would be welcome to helpit they are free. I will call him back tomorrow for either late this week or more likely next week


Mark

[pyonc]

I spent a short time there while my date was waiting for my friend to show up w/keys to unlock my car at the Home depot parking lot. I just didn't have any time.

While not an audiophone I heard more of a differece between the the 2 sets of speakers than he did. Very nice details, a little flat sonding but a mid range hump which was set that way on the cross overs. I am not sure they are "broken" yet,. When I go back I will bring a adcom pre amp and amp and a test CD . Maybe a meter if I get one 1st. and some music with more bass to begin with.

we tested at the main inputs for phase , both woofs went in which is probably correct for these 40 yr old speakers. The surrounds were done 10 yrs ago but the rest of the woofer is origianal, might be time to have them checked.

I was thinking we copuld also check the mid bass to verify it is connected the saem and then see i they are connected properly if i can read the and find the diagram for these.

I rememeber watching the woofers move on John's (Fred S) 4333s and no sound coming from 1 and this at a quick initial thought kind of remeinded me of that...but it is early with the diags.

I am sure any other locals would be welcome to helpit they are free. I will call him back tomorrow for either late this week or more likely next week


Mark

Thanks a lot for your time and help yesterday, Mark. I was relieved to know the woofers're all right after your battery test. According to this senior JBL member who sold me this gear, all wiring is JBL stock. So, I want to believe all the other drivers are fine. If you can come with a pre amp and amp, with a test CD, I just think I can get the real difference from my current receiver. By the way, I removed the cart dolly stands from 4343 (according to hjame's suggestion), and had them repositioned more away from the corners/ real walls and side walls (according to Widget's suggestion). Please let me know when you're available this weekend or next. :applaud:

[opimax]

did moving the speakers to the floor make ANY to much difference? has anything you have tried made much difference to your ears? turning down the level s on the XO do anything?

Weekends are harder than during the week for me ,after work we need to pick a night ...

[pyonc]

did moving the speakers to the floor make ANY to much difference? has anything you have tried made much difference to your ears? turning down the level s on the XO do anything?

Weekends are harder than during the week for me ,after work we need to pick a night ...

I'm not so sure at this point. I did so at the kind counsel of our great people here. Maybe until you could check it for me with your gear, I've got to wait. I can arrange for you to come during the week. Just give me call, so I can schedule my time. Thanks again. :)

[hjames]

we tested at the main inputs for phase , both woofs went in which is probably correct for these 40 yr old speakers. The surrounds were done 10 yrs ago but the rest of the woofer is origianal, might be time to have them checked.

I was thinking we could also check the mid bass to verify it is connected the same and then see i they are connected properly if i can read the and find the diagram for these.

I remember watching the woofers move on John's (Fred S) 4333s and no sound coming from 1 and this at a quick initial thought kind of reminded me of that...but it is early with the diags.

I am sure any other locals would be welcome to help if they are free. I will call him back tomorrow for either late this week or more likely next week
Mark

I'm pretty sure the 15 should be wired backwards compared to the 10 inch midbass ...

Here are the basics I posted in message 16 in the thread ...

If memory serves, with all the big 4 way crossovers, the woofer gets connected backwards compared to the other 3 drivers.
see:
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=156524&postcount=10


Schematic for 3143 network -
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=23582&d=1173884631

I am swamped timewise right now - just haven't got much time to do much of anything outside yardwork and work work
... maybe later in the month, if time eases up ... sigh ...

[jcrobso]

This is because of the 180deg phase shift of the 12db/octave x-over.
The other speakers have band pass filters and they have a 360 deg phase shift which puts them back in phase.:blink:

[pyonc]

Hi, guys,

I finally have found out that the reason I don't get that big woofer sound from my4343 is because of this unnatural set-up, namely receiver with 4343. Thanks to our kind and generous member here, Mark, I was fortunate to use his pre-amp and power amp to drive 4343, instead of the receiver. What a difference in the quality and resonance of sound!!! There was clear limit to getting the most out of the bass woofer of 4343 with even this mighty Marantz 2330B receiver (135 RMS per channell). When I hooked up the pre-amp and power-up (adcom -200 WPC) to 4343, I could notice the trembling and vibration of the bass woofer as it should, and hear the true sound of jazz to my satisfaction, with distinct timber and color of horns and percussions in particular back alive. Thanks a lot to you all for trying to help me out on this thread. :applaud:

[opimax]

From his other thread:

I was there last night and noticed this. I don't know which is the correct one but did notice the difference. Are the correct kits still available?

when we played test tones They started losing steam at around 60 hz they would move to 16hz but no "sound"(not expecting to play 16) how low would the these go? We had no meter to actually see the drop off.

I believe they sounded better http://www.audioheritage.org/images/smilies/smile.gif than what he is writing here but everyone ears are different. I brought over a adcom GFA555 amp and gft 400 pre(i think that is the number) which he is comparing to his very pretty (the term mint is appropriate!) marrantz receiver. I have offered to trade him http://www.audioheritage.org/images/smilies/smile.gif http://www.audioheritage.org/images/smilies/smile.gif

I have recommended since he plans on upgrading anyway to skip the mid range stuff like the adcom and get something that is real hi fi to go with these speakers. bi amp w/tubes up top? haven't really heard tubes stuff.

I think they will be placed where they are with in his house because that is about the only place available so only minor changes in speaker placement are available. I was wondering about spikes to take them off the carpet, no experience so don't know much about this if there is a short ver/recommendation please explain to him/me..

Mark