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robertbartsch
04-03-2010, 04:02 PM
A few years ago I had some custom cabs made at an unfinished furniture store and these were reasonably priced and of high quality. Unfortunately, these guys are now out of business.

Fast forward:

I would like to build a pair of Model 19 or Valencia cabs and I have gone to a few cabinet makers in my area who have given me quotes ranging from $1,900 to $3200 for a pair of cabs. These quotes don't include grill frames or cab finishing.

Frankly, I think these quotes are excessive but I realize there is a fair amount of labor involved and quality is not cheap.

Consequently, I'm looking for alternatives. Any ideas would be helpful.

Thx...

Mr. Widget
04-03-2010, 04:16 PM
I would like to build a pair of Model 19 or Valencia cabs and I have gone to a few cabinet makers in my area who have given me quotes ranging from $1,900 to $3200 for a pair of cabs. These quotes don't include grill frames or cab finishing.For unfinished cabs using preveneered shop grade oak plywood that is steep... then again, you could easily spend $1900 in high quality veneer alone with no cabs at all... what exactly do you want?


Widget

robertbartsch
04-04-2010, 02:42 AM
...looking to have built Model 19 or Valencia cabs in factory hardwood veneer unfinished - no grills. I was hoping to spend no more then $1,200 for the cabs.

Considering I could by a Model 19 pair or Valencia pair with cabs in good condition for $1500 or so, its not very economicial to buy components and have cabs built.

I live in the northeast and my options Vs. California are limited; there is just not much vintage stuff available on the east coast. Shipping big cabs is expensive.

macaroonie
04-04-2010, 04:10 AM
Maybe ask one of the talented builders here .............. Saeman for example

Krunchy
04-04-2010, 04:56 AM
you could easily spend $1900 in high quality veneer alone with no cabs at all... what exactly do you want?
Widget

While exotic veneers can get pretty expensive (true ebony, crotch mahogany & burls in particular) most exotic species are very reasonable (walnut even more so) unless you are planing to have the walls veneered as well :D

One could also have the panels made with whatever veneer you like and have a shop cut them to your specs. There is are a few companies that will manufacture them.

I would also consider macaroonies suggestion & contact Saeman, couldnt hurt.

For that $3,200.00 Id want them built, finished & served a complimentary cocktail :D

robertbartsch
04-04-2010, 09:27 AM
...yeh, for $3200 I could buy four vintage Valencias in great shape or a slightly used car.

Skilled workmen in Westchester NY think everyone is rich here and that they should be rich too.

....I'm not cheap but these cost estimates seem out of line.

Thx...

rdgrimes
04-04-2010, 09:49 AM
For that price you could buy all the materials AND the power tools needed for the job. More than anything, the cabinet shop is telling you they don't really want the job.

Krunchy
04-04-2010, 10:12 AM
More than anything, the cabinet shop is telling you they don't really want the job.

I agree, they dont want to bother, its too small a job :blah: & if they are going to do so they're going to make it worth their while$. This type of mentality is very pervasive these days, I personally do not understand it, seems very shortsighted IMO. Oftentimes small jobs lead to larger ones but most people dont have time to hear that kind of rationale.

Keep looking around though, I'm sure you'll be able to find someone to build them but it might take a little more effort than it used to.

cosmos
04-04-2010, 10:46 AM
What is your objective?

If you are trying to beat the cost of buying nice Altec 19s by buying components (or furnishing your own) and having cabinets custom built, I think you are going to have a very difficult time. From what I see, typically they sell for between $500 and $1200 /pair. Components are going to be around half of that. With at least a couple hundred dollars in materials for a quality cabinet, there isn't much left.

However, if your goal is to get nice cabinets, then I'd guess you could find someone that would likely do common materials (Not Exotic) veneers in the $900 to $1500 range for a pair of cabinets. This won't beat what you can buy nice ones for, but you should have a nice pair of speakers when you're done. Finishing can add several hundred dollars and a fair amount of time to the project...

As an aside, the low cost from the guys that are out of business might be part of the reason they aren't in business any longer.

I know cabinet makers here that are very slow and would likely take work at a lower than normal cost, but by the time you added shipping, I'd guess they'd be back in the same range as you can find there anyway. Hopefully, they'll be here in a few years..

Mr. Widget
04-04-2010, 11:01 AM
While exotic veneers can get pretty expensive (true ebony, crotch mahogany & burls in particular) most exotic species are very reasonable (walnut even more so) unless you are planing to have the walls veneered as well :DYou don't have to cover the walls... but yes, there are some fairly reasonable exotics... it just seems the ones I always pick cost a ton... $500+ per 4X8 panel. I like using wood on wood pre made up sheets of veneer. While considerably more expensive than simple veneer and a bit more than paper backed rolls, the results are consistently excellent, and it is fairly easy to work with.




As an aside, the low cost from the guys that are out of business might be part of the reason they aren't in business any longer. :yes:

The cost of running a legitimate cabinet shop with employees who do furniture grade work is considerably more than a guy in his garage.


As others have said, if you want flat cut walnut or are OK with Oak... buying the real deal will likely be far less expensive than having them built and sourcing all of the bits... unless you can find a hobbyist who is wiling to work with you.


Widget

eso
04-04-2010, 11:07 AM
If I were to build a pair of 19s, I'd be using baltic birch at least, and if I wanted a furniture grade finish I'd veneer that in my vacuum using flitches so I could set the veneer pattern. We're at ~$500-600 already and we haven't cut anything. Laying up the veneers is couple of days...



Mr Widget Says:
You don't have to cover the walls... but yes, there are some fairly reasonable exotics... it just seems the ones I always pick cost a ton... $500+ per 4X8 panel. I like using wood on wood pre made up sheets of veneer while considerably more expensive than simple veneer and a bit more than paper backed rolls, the results are more consistent, and it is easy to work with.

I like starting from raw so I can control the pattern and seam locations. Also, for proper composite panels the both side need to have the same treatment to maintain balanced tension. I use cheaper backers on interior faces, but I do both sides...


Even using fir core shop grade birch ply is going to be nearly $200 in materials alone. That would made a good paint grade cabinet, but I'd probably opt for MDO as a better base for paint. Having said that I'm a snob and don't like quality home audio equipment built from materials other than the Baltic (exception: prototyping and quick builts for development)

Essentially I'm saying the initial request doesn't ask clearly enough what is being priced to come up with an apples/apples comparison.


eso

Mr. Widget
04-04-2010, 11:22 AM
Essentially I'm saying the initial request doesn't ask clearly enough what is being priced to come up with an apples/apples comparison.Agreed... that is what I was suggesting in my original veneer comment.

On an aside...

I have a vacuum bag and occasionally will still tape up veneer joints and make my own panels, but life is short and you need to decide where you want to invest your time... these days I usually pay others to do that for me. There is a firm near by that make custom veneered panels for architects specing high rises... you know the ones, where the lobby on every floor has identical looking quartered Sapele or shimmering ribbon mahogany floor to ceiling.

On the birch core plywood front... I only use hardwood core plywood myself, sometimes appleply, sometimes baltic birch or marine grade Finn-ply, but frequently I use a Russian product that is entirely birch, and comes in 60" by 60" panels. It is not quite marine grade, but in speaker work that will be painted or veneered, it works equally well, is similarly stout, and is half the price per square foot. I don't know if it is available everywhere.


Widget

Krunchy
04-04-2010, 12:10 PM
You don't have to cover the walls... but yes, there are some fairly reasonable exotics... it just seems the ones I always pick cost a ton... $500+ per 4X8 panel. I like using wood on wood pre made up sheets of veneer. While considerably more expensive than simple veneer and a bit more than paper backed rolls, the results are consistently excellent, and it is fairly easy to work with.

I know exactly what you mean :D I thought you were talking about raw (ie:unbacked) veneer. Yeah, once you start applying it to a substrate then all bets are off and then the price of the veneer winds up being a small fraction of the finished panel price. But you do end up with a beautiful finished product so to that extent you get what you pay for.


I have a vacuum bag and occasionally will still tape up veneer joints and make my own panels, but life is short and you need to decide where you want to invest your time... these days I usually pay others to do that for me.

Couldnt agree more! Splicing, taping and glueing your own veneer panels is not that easy and can be very time consuming even if you know what you are doing, at this tage of the game I'd probably go the panel route unless I had lots of disposable time....like we all do these days :D

rdgrimes
04-04-2010, 12:17 PM
I agree, they dont want to bother, its too small a job :blah: & if they are going to do so they're going to make it worth their while$. This type of mentality is very pervasive these days, I personally do not understand it, seems very shortsighted IMO. Oftentimes small jobs lead to larger ones but most people dont have time to hear that kind of rationale.
I work with contractors and craftsmen a lot. As a rule, they are not business people who make sensible business decisions. Repeat business is not part of their "plan".

Krunchy
04-04-2010, 12:25 PM
I work with contractors and craftsmen a lot. As a rule, they are not business people who make sensible business decisions. Repeat business is not part of their "plan".

Exactly! I find it amazing so many have that kind of attitude :dont-know makes me kinda wonder when they start bitching about how slow things are? :blink:

eso
04-04-2010, 02:57 PM
I work with contractors and craftsmen a lot. As a rule, they are not business people who make sensible business decisions. Repeat business is not part of their "plan".

And likewise there many business people who are quite adept at making money yet really have no "Business" trying to associate their work with craftsmanship. To them going the extra mile to produce something truly excellent is as foreign as a fine craftsperson cutting corners to make an extra dollar...



eso

Mr. Widget
04-04-2010, 09:53 PM
And likewise there many business people who are quite adept at making money yet really have no "Business" trying to associate their work with craftsmanship. To them going the extra mile to produce something truly excellent is as foreign as a fine craftsperson cutting corners to make an extra dollar...I am afraid fine craftsmanship has become a rather alien concept to most Americans... appreciating the value of fine craftsmanship and taking pride in one's own craft are the exception rather than the rule these days... It certainly isn't gone, but it is disappointingly rare.

To be fair to the posters complaining about craftspeople who are shortsighted... I have met them too, but the rare individual who is a fine craftsman will take delight in working for someone who knows and appreciates the difference between ordinary and the extraordinary. They won't blow you off.


Widget

saeman
04-05-2010, 11:10 AM
I have to share Mr. Widget's observations related to cabinet making in today's market.

Simply driving up to a business who has Cabinet Making as part of their name will usually result in dissappointment for those seeking anything in the custom category. In today's cabinet shops their is likely only one true cabinet maker - the owner - if he's old enough to have grown up in a near dead trade.

In today's economy cabinet shops only survive by mass producing cabinets for kitchen installations and the like. Most of today's shops use little to no hardwoods with composite look alike materials dominating. They're slamming them together with nail and staple guns, using assembly fixtures, and presses. Seldom will you ever see a screw. The majority of their employees are simple labor with a few long timers responsible for the millwork necessary to make all the parts. I've been in many of these shops over the years and this is what the industry has become. Today's furniture factories (the few that still exist) have degraded to the same routine. Cost of labor !!!!!

I'm surprised that anyone could even get a quote for a custom application pair of speaker cabs in today's market, since most shops do not even employ a person capable of creating such a cabinet from scratch. For those shops that do, you must realize that that person will be taken out of the normal work force for a couple of weeks, while he hand cuts every piece and hand assembles and finishes the end product. In dollars/hour you have to ask what his time is worth to the business owner? Likely more than the project is worth is my guess.

I've built so many cabinets over the years that I take the process for granted but every pair is a reminder of the man-hours required - and I have assembled a hugh pile of jigs and templates to streamline my efforts. Building the raw cabinets is only half of the battle. Installing the veneer, finishing and building grilles is an equal task. Nobody, not even home based hobbiests, wants their work going out the door for $5 to $10/hour for their labor time and this is what would need to happen to get everyone the cabinets of their dreams.

As stated earlier in this thread, a pair of Model 19's can be purchased outright for far less than than the option of buying components and having custom cabinets built. I've owned 19's before but have not actually built those cabinets, however I can envision their construction time to be similar to many of the bigger 43XX models. When I sold my 19's about 5 years ago (Stone Mint Original's in Walnut/Black) I struggled to get $1500 for them. I'm sure if one is patient a similar pair will come along and result in a significant net savings when compared to the DIY option.

Just my 3 cents worth - Rick

robertbartsch
04-05-2010, 12:56 PM
I can't see paying $2K - $3.5K for new cabs.

Can someone explain the simple economics to me?

1. Why are the JBL/Altec components of a large 15" system being sold on FleaBay, for example, for amounts that are often equal to or exceeding the price of a whole system that includes the cabs? This is even true for 12" systems that can be shipped fairly easily.

2. I realize shipping a large 90.lb box from coast-to-coast can be prohibitively expensive but only if you have existing cabs or plan to make them yourself; right?

3. If building new cabs from a shop is so expensive, why are these "box-less" components selling so well? Are most people building their own cabs or is "gramps" donating the cab labor?

as always - thanks for your thoughts...

grumpy
04-05-2010, 02:06 PM
I can't see paying $2K - $3.5K for new cabs.Then don't. That reduces the economics about as simply as is possible. :D

Is it a problem to just wait for a local sale of a system you're after?

robertbartsch
04-05-2010, 02:21 PM
....No problem for me to wait for a sale with cabs on the east coast ...just a tad frustrated knowing my multiple cab building venture worked well in the past, was reasobably priced, was good quality- but is now Bye-bye!

A couple of other thoughts:


When I learned wood working in school 40 years ago, the school shop teacher and sometimes kids would look for projects that the kids could do for their learning skills.

Is this something that has long since been eliminated?


What about trying to find a retired cab maker - I don't expect him to work for peanuts but maybe $15-$20 an hour might produce cabs for under $1,200 or so???
I suppose I could buy a table saw and veneer a pair of new cabs for under $800 or so but this is really more than I want to do right now.
Thx all!

herki the cat
04-05-2010, 02:27 PM
I am afraid fine craftsmanship has become a rare exception these days... It certainly isn't extinct. Widget

For the surprise of your life visit this LinK , 1st the home page:

< michaelchrist.com (http://michaelchrist.com) > and then contact Mr. Michael Christ at Email:

< onemichaelchrist@hotmail.com (onemichaelchrist@hotmail.com) >


After you have seen Michael Christ's Shop in the Web site gallery, then see the image of Michael's exquisite reproduction of the WECO TA-7395 horn for WECO 18 inch field coil horn driver. In the next image is a picture of Michael's RCA Photophone 1950's Cinema Scope Theater PL-301-A Ubangi horn system with the RCA MI-9462 Ubangi low frequency horns in Michael's home. Michael will be very pleased to fabricate exquisite veneered woods cabinets for you.


cheers herki the cat

grumpy
04-05-2010, 02:37 PM
I like the school idea... although most high-schools around here wouldn't know
what wood shop was if you asked, you might talk to the staff of community college
that has such facilities.

I certainly benefited from such an arrangement when I took auto machine
shop classes and was able to work on 'brought in' flat head ford engines,
Olds race motors (for marine use), etc... in addition to my own projects.

You would have to front the materials, probably a small fee, and get no
real guarantee, but you'd be doing several folks a favor with a high likelihood
of the shop instructor not letting the student fail. My work was held to a
high standard... if a student got into trouble, the shop instructor could
direct a repair or take over briefly (normally the former).

saeman
04-05-2010, 02:37 PM
What economics? I don't think there's a single answer to your question. Individual components have always sold well on eBay. I've been buying them for over 10 years. Motive for buying is the question.

If I had to guess I would say the majority are being bought by DIY'ers who are building their own boxes. So called professionally built boxes are not a high priority to everyone. Some will wrap them in laminated plastic and put them in their mobile home living room and be perfectly satisifed.

Some DIY'ers are motivated to build simply to create something themselves and total end price is not the up front issue. Others are doing it because what they seek is not being offered whole, at any price, and building is their only option. Then there are the majority who decide to build because they believe the end cost will be considerably lower. This group I believe to be in the majority and most find out after the fact that they could have bought whole originals for less money.

How many eBay ads have you seeen that read "bought these items for a DIY project thar never materialized so now my loss is your gain". I see this quite often. I wonder how many times a given set of components has changed hands over the course of 5 years or so. A better question is "How many AC Corba Kit Cars" are sitting unfinished in garages around the country.

I'm fortunate that I can blend the components and wood into a finished product but many find it to be more than they bargained for. If there was a pair of Hartsfields on the market for every set of plans sold on the internet, the Hartsfield would be worth a fraction of the current asking price.

I'm not trying to defend the validity of the quotes you have received but I personally feel that you'll get only cobbled together junk for less than that amount - and if you're not careful you might get less. If you proceed be absolutely sure the company knows what the end product must look like. Supply tons of detailed pics and precise building plans as a minimum. Does any one know if factory Model 19 plans exist out there?

Rick

grumpy
04-05-2010, 02:41 PM
They do.

http://home.earthlink.net/~jmarkwart/

saeman
04-05-2010, 02:54 PM
Thanks Grumpy. I've bookmarked that site. I'm not a real big Altec fan these days but if I had to choose one it would be the Model 19. If I could keep everything I would not have sold my last pair. It's for sure one of the best 70's vintage 2-ways and I appreciate Robert's desire to bring em home.

dprice
04-05-2010, 03:11 PM
Try searching for a woodworkers club in your area. I would think that would be a good source finding a contact for a semi-retired craftsman or, perhaps, a young one that hasn't given up yet.

Good luck!

sonofagun
04-05-2010, 06:23 PM
I think I'd like to take on your project for you. I started out building custom cabinets 30+ years ago - always enjoyed it and would be a nice project to do.

Plus I have contacts for very reasonable freight/shipping, know how to package/palletize cabinets, am located mid westerly AND of course...

Ta Dah....can furnish grilles (foam of course).

Materials are reasonable around here so I think I can give you the price you want - just will need to know EXACTLY what you want (ergo 19s or Valencias and how finished).

You can PM me with details.

Frankly, I'd love to go back into cabinet making - IF you want some real high end cabs, I've got contacts with several Amish shops that produce beautiful furniture...but it costs.

macaroonie
04-05-2010, 07:12 PM
How good is that ? Well done you sir for stepping up to the plate, thats what its all about. :applaud:

subwoof
04-05-2010, 07:36 PM
Interesting reading for sure.

Back in 1979 I built a group of (4) 4530 cabinets after buying one from JBL and making a jig - 2 for myself and hopefully 2 that I could sell to recoup my small investment in a radial arm saw and router. Took them to a music store and they sold before I made it back home.

The next batch of 8 lasted 2 days. I guess I hit a niche. The vast majority were painted black and thrown around uhauls and repainted / resold many times and I still see them in stores and in retired soundman garages...but a few were made of oak veneer plywood with solid oak trim and found their way into homes and "nice" clubs.

In the next 2 decades I built a large shop, made all kinds of cabinets for clubs, bands, sound companies, Install contractors (unique church boxes with special finishes) and furniture for my self and family.

Fast forward to the present and I find myself yet again relocating the ( dormant for 8 years ) wood shop to the LAST place it will reside and once again will be building cabinets and refinishing all the 43XX monitors I have accumulated over the years.

The biggest issue I have with building for the DIY'er is that the original materials and technique of assembly for the big format monitors left a lot to be desired. Particle board is just plain junk to work with, store, reinforce and so on. Get it even close to damp and it swells up. Hit it and it fractures. Won't hold a screw for crap.

So when I used to tell clients that I would make it out of shop or finnish birch ( or russian / appleply - love that stuff from anderson in anaheim BTW ) multiply plywood I get the "attitude" that it's not original and the "aura" might be impeded.

Nevermind that the client uses ceramic insulators to separate his 28ga speaker wires ( that run exactly North-south ), 2000 dollar interconnects that have direction arrows and those "magic" 6" cones pulled from drive-in hanging metal boxes because they are "warm"...and I won't even get into the tube amp damping game....

...sigh...

Anyways, enough ranting. By this fall I hope to have the shop completed enough to start producing the large 4 ways and related sub cabs for sale here on the forum. And the model 19 plans look pretty straightforward compared to a large folded horn.

And yes saeman - it took a whole vanload to transport *just* the jigs and templates and I still have to sort them out...:)

And robertbartsch - I am about 2 hours from you...

So what cabinet types are in demand these days???

:)

sub

rusty jefferson
04-06-2010, 03:39 AM
I believe the $2500-$3000 price quotes from cabinets shops to be reasonable for companies billing out a journeyman cabinetmakers time at $75-$100 per hour. That price is of course necessary for those companies to pay the lease/mortgage on their building, the overhead, equipment, insurance, etc, and turn a small profit.

That said, many of the skilled people that work for those shops do side work at home for pretty reasonable rates. In my business, I work with some custom cabinet builders and yacht carpenters frequently. Last summer I contracted with one to build me 2ea. 8 cubic foot sub cabinets for 2245hs per the plans found on this site. 1" mdf braced per the plan, in satin black Formica [$225.00 ea.] with wood veneer [Cherry-Walnut "off the roll" on 3 sides of the box, applied with contact cement, $325.00 ea.] vacuum bagged, selected veneers etc. went up from there. I chose the satin Formica. Works for this system.

For small [but important to us] projects like this it's tough to go with a big shop. Consider being in the parking lot of one of those shops at quitting time and ask if anyone does side work. Many of these guys [or women] have portfolios of their work so you can get an idea of their capabilities. Some shop owners will tell you straight out if they have a good person doing side work that's not in conflict with their day job. PM me and I'll put you in touch with the guy I used. He's in VA.

I've seen the threads here showing some of the outstanding reproduction work members are doing, and it is excellent work. When I sold my B-380s to do this project, I thought about B-460 cabinets as close to new as possible, but it was cost prohibitive. This time the cosmetics took a back seat. I got very solid cabinets that look pretty ordinary for a reasonable price.

Mr. Widget
04-06-2010, 08:00 AM
I can't see paying $2K - $3.5K for new cabs.

Can someone explain the simple economics to me?
I believe the $2500-$3000 price quotes from cabinets shops to be reasonable for companies billing out a journeyman cabinetmakers time at $75-$100 per hour. That price is of course necessary for those companies to pay the lease/mortgage on their building, the overhead, equipment, insurance, etc, and turn a small profit.Exactly! ...and let's not forget workman's comp insurance which is crazy high as soon as you have tools that can kill you in the shop... and let's not forget healthcare. (which wouldn't be a problem if we had universal single payer coverage... that would eliminate it from the burden on small business... the largest shop and grandpa's garage would be on equal footing on that expense. ;))

And for you who haven't run a small business... billing out at $75 to $100 an hour means the worker is getting at most $25 an hour or $50K a year if he works full time... not a crazy sum to pay a fast, hardworking, skilled individual with decades of experience with a family and his own mortgage and taxes to pay. :blah:

Yep, for the economics to work out in your favor it is best to ask a part timer/hobbyist to help you out... or have it done in China.


Widget

4313B
04-06-2010, 08:07 AM
not a crazy sum to pay a fast, hardworking, skilled individual with decades of experience with a family and his own mortgage and taxes to pay. :blah:Screw 'em... Let them eat cake!
or have it done in China.It's the American way...

:barf:

eso
04-06-2010, 08:32 AM
And for you who haven't run a small business... billing out at $75 to $100 an hour means the worker is getting at most $25 an hour or $50K a year if he works full time...

Referred to as the Burden for the labor...



Yep, for the economics to work out in your favor it is best to ask a part timer/hobbyist to help you out... or have it done in China.

... all the while further decimating the middle class and lowering standards that were one very high. At some point there will be no significant mass consuming class here and all of those companies plundering the masses will just find another population to fleece without shedding a tear for this country...

I'll get off the soap box now.

I'm fortunate to be able to do top quality work for a limited but appreciative clientele. I keep my company to a minimum because what I do requires my hand in it constantly. I.E. there's one major project in the shop that will keep me very busy for the next year. In about 6 months I'll have to start thinking about work for the 2nd quarter of 2011...

And all of this allow me the space, tooling, time and money to do a few fine audio projects too!

eso

Mr. Widget
04-06-2010, 08:37 AM
... all the while further decimating the middle class and lowering standards that were one very high. At some point there will be no significant mass consuming class here and all of those companies plundering the masses will just find another population to fleece without shedding a tear for this country...The future is now.


Widget

Odd
04-06-2010, 08:50 AM
Cabinet maker.
For those who live in Scandinavia, try this,
http://www.joasnickeri.com/index.htm

4313B
04-06-2010, 09:15 AM
The future is now.Here's something to read while we wait for it all to go to hell in a handbasket:

David Brooks: Relax, We’ll Be Fine (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/06/opinion/06brooks.html?src=me&ref=general)

richluvsound
04-06-2010, 09:15 AM
Your having problems?

I don't understand why .... I grew up and did my apprenticeship on that continent . North American Union Carpenters And Joiners .. I was a proud member . 5 years of training ... started with a shovel and ended up building spiral staircases . You guys had some fine craftsmen .

I grew up running to my dad with splinters in my hands and tears in my eyes.
Tools were the things I needed to master in order to create in 3D the things my mind could see.

I was lucky having the father I did- Shipwright ( boat-builder) by trade. I watched flat panels and strips of timber evolve into wonderful complex shapes, not just art, but form.

So there is a shortage of skill craftsmen worldwide . The last project I was involved with was as Site manager of a $24 million dollar refurbishment.
You get the contract, now you need to man it . Plumbers , Electricians , Bricklayers ,Painters and roofers are a dime a dozen. So where are the joiners ? I don't want framers or formwork carpenters - I want a person that can pick up that chunk of hardwood and not screw it up Fat Fercken Chance ...! I must have fired 20 wood butchers in the first month - not something I enjoy, but its them or me . I was there to get the job done to a very high quality and these guys could not do it .

Now they are talking about bringing back a formal apprentice program.. LOL
Excuse me , but who is going to train them , Me ,Saeman , John W, Mac, I dont bloody think so .. They would want us work for peanuts and try to impart our knowledge to kids that would really rather be smoking dope and
killing someone on their PS3's

Lets face it , everyone wants a deal , everyone wants the best , but for fuck all ... What an insult.. personally , I have 32 years of professional experience,
a formal trade qualification ,6 years in art school and ,were not talking some little community college either . A top degree in that field GPA of 4 which cost me close to a $ 500.000 .
Why should I give that away, why should any of us ... you want a bargain get to Walmart, if you want quality come back when you can afford it

Sorry if this is rant, but to think a tradesmen is some how less worthy of a decent standard of living than any other occupation is the same as spitting in my face ... In which case... run like F%^*

Rich
investment in me

sonofagun
04-06-2010, 09:22 AM
Here's something to read while we wait for it all to go to hell in a handbasket:

David Brooks: Relax, We’ll Be Fine (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/06/opinion/06brooks.html?src=me&ref=general)


Dream on!

eso
04-06-2010, 09:32 AM
... try to impart our knowledge to kids that would really rather be smoking dope and
killing someone on their PS3's

Lets face it , everyone wants a deal , everyone wants the best , but for fuck all ...

Rich, if I were a drinking man I'd really love to sit down at a pub and have a good piss with you. Cheers


I too recently completed a highrise reuse project where I worked as a superintendent while under a consulting contract to a builder. It was a good move to get me and the family through the worst of the meltdown but I'm so happy to be full-time on my own projects again.

eso

richluvsound
04-06-2010, 10:04 AM
Eso ,

nice to meet you. I admire you skill greatly ...

BTW, that was no high rise , that was one home ! 50 tonnes of marble on the ground floor ...... Yep , you guessed it OIL MONEY

as for the sit down ... love to !

Rich

Robh3606
04-06-2010, 10:07 AM
Is it me or are we putting a spin on lot's of threads of late.

Rob:homer:

Mr. Widget
04-06-2010, 10:10 AM
Is it me or are we putting a spin on lot's of threads of late.I think it's just you. ;)

Or perhaps...

Living in Rome as it burns, it is hard to write without the taste of smoke in one's mouth.


Widget

robertbartsch
04-06-2010, 10:43 AM
...awh shucks....

No one has ever called me cheap and I recognize the value of good workmenship.

To me, it does not make cents (no pun), however, to buy a pair of new cabs for +$2,000, install components worth +$1,200 when the 35 year-old factory originals with decent cabs can be purchased used for $1,200 - $1,500.

I'm I being un-reasonable or is my argument just hard-headed?

Thx...

PS - California guys should consider themselves very lucky since east coast versions of vintage Lansing stuff is relatively rare. ...not sure why this is the case but it is a fact.

Mr. Widget
04-06-2010, 10:54 AM
To me, it does not make cents (no pun), however, to buy a pair of new cabs for +$2,000, install components worth +$1,200 when the 35 year-old factory originals with decent cabs can be purchased used for $1,200 - $1,500.I believe that is exactly what everyone has been telling you.

These vintage systems are a bargain... JBL does make a contemporary speaker that is similar... and much improved over what they and Altec did 30-40 years ago, and it costs $11K a pair to do that today.

You keep saying that the West Coasters are lucky. Maybe, but these systems show up all over the country and around the world. As a number of people have posted on other threads, there are very reasonable shipping options if you can get the seller to put the speakers on a pallet.

Buying a large pair of speakers is a big deal... airfare is still ridiculously cheap. If you find a pair that appeals to you fly to Florida or California or?? check them out, put them on a pallet and ship 'em home. You'll get an experience, a story to tell, and a pair of great speakers.

Alternatively do your part to help out your local economy and hire someone and stop worrying about what they need to stay in business. :D


Widget

eso
04-06-2010, 11:05 AM
... there are very reasonable shipping options if you can get the seller to put the speakers on a pallet.

My early '50s Altec A5s came from Chicago. The seller removed the drivers and crossovers (515b. 288b and N-500-C) and shipped them double boxed UPS and the cabinets and heavy tar-filled 1005A horns were shipped on pallets.

Although, at that time I was shipping things all over the country constantly and I just had our freight company pick them up and bring them here so I have no idea of the cost. I think Ralph Lauren paid the shipping for me...


eso

richluvsound
04-06-2010, 11:09 AM
...awh shucks....

No one has ever called me cheap and I recognize the value of good workmenship.

To me, it does not make cents (no pun), however, to buy a pair of new cabs for +$2,000, install components worth +$1,200 when the 35 year-old factory originals with decent cabs can be purchased used for $1,200 - $1,500.

I'm I being un-reasonable or is my argument just hard-headed?

Thx...

PS - California guys should consider themselves very lucky since east coast versions of vintage Lansing stuff is relatively rare. ...not sure why this is the case but it is a fact.


you should get a very good quality build for that money ,but nothing fancy .
no fancy veneer though !

SEAWOLF97
04-06-2010, 11:17 AM
Whether you like the design or not...

250ti cabs are a really nice piece of workmanship...:D

macaroonie
04-06-2010, 11:43 AM
I can see me and Rick offering a fly in build u a box service :) ................. In your own backyard

robertbartsch
04-06-2010, 11:50 AM
OK - I've traveled the world for the last 20 years, but I need to be educated about using private shipping companies.

So you by a big system, rent an airport limo, fly to the seller's location, rent a car and hotel, buy a couple of pallets (???? where?), ask the seller to store them on the pallets, hire a shipper to pick them up and deliver them to your home, then fly home, rent a airport limo?

Really?

eso
04-06-2010, 12:05 PM
It looks like the company I used frequently (Target logistics) has been absorbed:

http://www.mainfreightusa.com/usa/USA.aspx

Here's another one we used:

http://www.trumpcardinc.com/

Most of the smaller companies will have countless alliances around the country, so the company that picks up might not have the same name as the one you're expecting.

I think we used to pay about 50˘/lb. to anywhere in the continental US. Residential pick-ups can be a challenge, but usually you just have to specify that it is a residence and a pallet jack and lift gate are required for the pick-up. If you're going to ship a pair of 19s or similar I'd try to get them crated and not just palleted.

eso

JeffW
04-06-2010, 01:44 PM
OK - I've traveled the world for the last 20 years, but I need to be educated about using private shipping companies.

So you by a big system, rent an airport limo, fly to the seller's location, rent a car and hotel, buy a couple of pallets (???? where?), ask the seller to store them on the pallets, hire a shipper to pick them up and deliver them to your home, then fly home, rent a airport limo?

Really?

I guess you could charter a cargo jet as well.

I bought my 250ti pair from a guy in Wisconsin. I didn't rent any limo or fly anyplace. I mailed him a cashier's check registered mail, he crated them up and shipped them to my house.

I know I've seen a thread here where a guy shipped some big monitors. The thread showed pictures of the crating process, palleting, stretch wrapping, and even named the carrier. Pretty sure no limos were involved.

I'd search, but I'm not looking to ship or receive any large speakers.

It's funny how things go. I have quite an assortment of woodworking tools, passed down from my grandfather. Why did he have them? He wanted stuff that he couldn't afford to buy, so it built the stuff himself. I can just picture his reaction to $3500 speaker cabinets..as he started sketching out how he'd build them himself in his spare time.

1audiohack
04-07-2010, 10:15 PM
Living in Rome as it burns, it is hard to write without the taste of smoke in one's mouth.


Well said Citizen, well said.

opimax
04-08-2010, 06:04 PM
I have driven many miles so I know how my speaker will arrive, in my vehicle. From DC I have gone to Alabama, Tenn, and Western NY , NC and others. I enjoyed the drive and the peace of mind

Mark

hjames
04-08-2010, 06:22 PM
I have driven many miles so I know how my speaker will arrive, in my vehicle. From DC I have gone to Alabama, Tenn, and Western NY , NC and others. I enjoyed the drive and the peace of mind

Mark

Agreed - so far, I've only gone from VA to points in Md and PA to obtain mine - but I wouldn't pay cash and take delivery unless I had confirmed the sound first.

SEAWOLF97
04-08-2010, 06:38 PM
I have driven many miles so I know how my speaker will arrive, in my vehicle. From DC I have gone to Alabama, Tenn, and Western NY , NC and others. I enjoyed the drive and the peace of mind

Mark

same here ...I drove from Portland, Oregon..across Washington to Tsawwassen , BC, Canada for my 250ti's..

eso
04-08-2010, 08:25 PM
I have driven many miles so I know how my speaker will arrive, in my vehicle. From DC I have gone to Alabama, Tenn, and Western NY , NC and others. I enjoyed the drive and the peace of mind

Mark

Aside from having my vintage Altec A5s delivered from Chicago I mostly drive down to my shop... sometimes to Orange County Speaker to drop-off or pickup drivers... Tomorrow I have to drive a few miles to check some test castings at a local foundry...


:blink:

eso