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scarpi
03-22-2010, 08:41 AM
This is indeed a sad time for JBL fans. It seems that many American companies are now manufacturing items in China. In the 80s my system consisted of JBL L150a speakers powered by Marantz electronics. I had my L150a speakers for over twenty years. I purchased them at a local high end audio store. The JBL name was highly respected then and that was the only place you could buy JBL speakers at the time. I remember the salesman, showing me actual cutaways of the JBL drivers and explaining the construction quality compared to other well known speakers at the time. I loved my L150As. But in 2001, I thought I'd perhaps look into replacing them with speakers that had the latest technology advances. I was hopefully going to replace them with new JBLs. Then I started to see JBL speakers at Best Buy. These were not the JBL speakers that I remember and compared to my L150As, frankly, they were basically junk. In my opinion, that's when the JBL era came to an end. They cheapened their name and the name dissappeared from high end audio stores. And I admit, I do have a problem buying audio gear made in China for my own personal reasons. If given a choice, I try to purchase products that are made in democratic societies. So my gear now consists of a B&K amp and preamp designed and built in Buffalo, NY, and Paradigm Studio 100 speakers designed and built in Ontario, Canada. And yeah, I still get nostalgic about my old JBLs but the company has decided to go in a different direction. To me that's sad and I can't support that.

Loren42
03-22-2010, 11:07 AM
This is indeed a sad time for JBL fans. It seems that many American companies are now manufacturing items in China. In the 80s my system consisted of JBL L150a speakers powered by Marantz electronics. I had my L150a speakers for over twenty years. I purchased them at a local high end audio store. The JBL name was highly respected then and that was the only place you could buy JBL speakers at the time. I remember the salesman, showing me actual cutaways of the JBL drivers and explaining the construction quality compared to other well known speakers at the time. I loved my L150As. But in 2001, I thought I'd perhaps look into replacing them with speakers that had the latest technology advances. I was hopefully going to replace them with new JBLs. Then I started to see JBL speakers at Best Buy. These were not the JBL speakers that I remember and compared to my L150As, frankly, they were basically junk. In my opinion, that's when the JBL era came to an end. They cheapened their name and the name dissappeared from high end audio stores. And I admit, I do have a problem buying audio gear made in China for my own personal reasons. If given a choice, I try to purchase products that are made in democratic societies. So my gear now consists of a B&K amp and preamp designed and built in Buffalo, NY, and Paradigm Studio 100 speakers designed and built in Ontario, Canada. And yeah, I still get nostalgic about my old JBLs but the company has decided to go in a different direction. To me that's sad and I can't support that.

Unfortunately, JBL is just moving with the market here and I can agree that I don't like where it is moving, but JBL can not afford to swim upstream and they shouldn't.

There are many smaller specialty companies that are out there that produce state of the art drivers. Acoustic Elegance Speakers (http://www.aespeakers.com/) is but one and there are many others, too.

Every dynasty passes the torch onto the next. I think JBL is just trying to find away to stay alive in a changing market. Can't really blame them.

Wagner
03-22-2010, 06:05 PM
This is indeed a sad time for JBL fans. It seems that many American companies are now manufacturing items in China. In the 80s my system consisted of JBL L150a speakers powered by Marantz electronics. I had my L150a speakers for over twenty years. I purchased them at a local high end audio store. The JBL name was highly respected then and that was the only place you could buy JBL speakers at the time. I remember the salesman, showing me actual cutaways of the JBL drivers and explaining the construction quality compared to other well known speakers at the time. I loved my L150As. But in 2001, I thought I'd perhaps look into replacing them with speakers that had the latest technology advances. I was hopefully going to replace them with new JBLs. Then I started to see JBL speakers at Best Buy. These were not the JBL speakers that I remember and compared to my L150As, frankly, they were basically junk. In my opinion, that's when the JBL era came to an end. They cheapened their name and the name dissappeared from high end audio stores. And I admit, I do have a problem buying audio gear made in China for my own personal reasons. If given a choice, I try to purchase products that are made in democratic societies. So my gear now consists of a B&K amp and preamp designed and built in Buffalo, NY, and Paradigm Studio 100 speakers designed and built in Ontario, Canada. And yeah, I still get nostalgic about my old JBLs but the company has decided to go in a different direction. To me that's sad and I can't support that.


It's not too late to buy "real" U. S. A. built JBL reflecting the latest in technologies.................
IF you are willing to put your money where your mouth is. Get it while it's hot!

Seems a lot of people have recently joined this forum to talk about what a sorry state of affairs JBL is in; not the point of this place as I thought I understood it.

As far as the fact of moving sizable, if not all production out of the country; old news, you're preaching to the choir.

(and they've been heading in that "different direction" for a long time, ergo: "Lansing Heritage")

I'll wait for my dressing down from the Administrators now :(

Thomas

scott fitlin
03-22-2010, 06:54 PM
Unfortunately, JBL is just moving with the market here and I can agree that I don't like where it is moving, but JBL can not afford to swim upstream and they shouldn't.

There are many smaller specialty companies that are out there that produce state of the art drivers. Acoustic Elegance Speakers (http://www.aespeakers.com/) is but one and there are many others, too.

Every dynasty passes the torch onto the next. I think JBL is just trying to find away to stay alive in a changing market. Can't really blame them.Thank you for the link! These woofers look very enticing, and I am looking at their new 18 for possible use in my j horns, the specs are right. And, it is an underhung coil, and has 1000w power handling capability. NICE!

All things considered, if these woofers perform as well as their manufacturer claims, they are very reasonably priced.

And, YES, IF they are all that, combined with the fact they are made in Green Bay Wi, I will send my greenbacks to them! If I can get what I need from an American company, I'm in.

:applaud:

Loren42
03-23-2010, 05:34 AM
Thank you for the link! These woofers look very enticing, and I am looking at their new 18 for possible use in my j horns, the specs are right. And, it is an underhung coil, and has 1000w power handling capability. NICE!

All things considered, if these woofers perform as well as their manufacturer claims, they are very reasonably priced.

And, YES, IF they are all that, combined with the fact they are made in Green Bay Wi, I will send my greenbacks to them! If I can get what I need from an American company, I'm in.

:applaud:

What is really nice about these drivers is, for example, the inductance. The inductance of the 2235H is four times the amount of the TD15H! The TD15H also has very, very low distortion and a very linear excursion thanks to the copper sleeve on the pole to tame eddy currents. There is an option for additional aluminum to further reduce eddy currents and heat at even higher SPL levels.

The TD15H would be a drop in replacement for the 2235H, except that the TD15H extends out to 2 kHz and beyond and is claimed to still have a wide dispersion!

The problem with that is that you need a pretty steep filter to cut off the upper end. However, 2 kHz, if it really is usable, gets you into a 2-way design with the right tweeter or even a horn.

It's a tempting driver to play around with.

If you like really, really deep bass, the IB15 15" infinite baffle woofer is another interesting character to explore and is cheap at $150 each. In quantity of four they go for $125 each.

4313B
03-23-2010, 07:13 AM
Maybe someone should find out where these things are being manufactured.

BMWCCA
03-23-2010, 07:27 AM
Maybe someone should find out where these things are being manufactured.

It would appear from the photo below that they are at least assembled here in the USA.

http://www.aespeakers.com/pics/shop_tour/PICT1769.jpg

4313B
03-23-2010, 07:31 AM
It would appear from the photo below that they are at least assembled here in the USA.Well, those quoted prices seem awfully cheap for SOTA drivers made in the USA. :dont-know

Tom Brennan
03-23-2010, 07:45 AM
I think those are the drivers that used to be called Lambdas. They have a following among some people who previously used JBL and Altec.

4313B
03-23-2010, 07:50 AM
Oh, I think Ian mentioned Lambda drivers a time or two.

Loren42
03-23-2010, 07:57 AM
Well, those quoted prices seem awfully cheap for SOTA drivers made in the USA. :dont-know

Email John at Acoustic Elegance LLC Sales [email protected] and find out.

John is pretty good at getting back to you fast.

Loren42
03-23-2010, 08:08 AM
It would appear from the photo below that they are at least assembled here in the USA.

http://www.aespeakers.com/pics/shop_tour/PICT1769.jpg

That is a nice little assembly line.

Mr. Widget
03-23-2010, 08:51 AM
The TD15H would be a drop in replacement for the 2235H, except that the TD15H extends out to 2 kHz and beyond and is claimed to still have a wide dispersion!You had me going until this line... the dispersion is a function of cone diameter and to a lesser degree it's shape. How could it possibly have wide dispersion if it is a 15" woofer?


Widget

Ducatista47
03-23-2010, 09:02 AM
Ian indeed purchased two woofers from AE a while ago. I expect he measured them at some point.

I can't get over how much the speakers awaiting final assembly look like lamps. Now I know what to do with the cores I can't afford to recone.

Clark

Robh3606
03-23-2010, 09:11 AM
Info is here in this thread

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=21738&page=7

Rob:)

Loren42
03-23-2010, 11:19 AM
You had me going until this line... the dispersion is a function of cone diameter and to a lesser degree it's shape. How could it possibly have wide dispersion if it is a 15" woofer?


Widget

Wide dispersion is both subjective and I guess arbitrary. So, the question is, wider than what?

I don't have one to test, so I could not say what it actually does.

This was a link John sent me for the TD15X, but it does not show off-axis response. I just thought I would throw it in as a red herring. :)

http://www.aespeakers.com/pics/measurements/TD15X-closemic.PNG

scott fitlin
03-23-2010, 11:33 AM
Maybe someone should find out where these things are being manufactured.I read through their website, and they claim THEY make everything here. They say they have their pole pieces made to specification, and they form their own parts, to precision tolerances, and hand assemble everything.

scott fitlin
03-23-2010, 11:34 AM
Well, those quoted prices seem awfully cheap for SOTA drivers made in the USA. :dont-knowyeah, I think this too. they are really inexpensive.

SEAWOLF97
03-23-2010, 11:39 AM
It would appear from the photo below that they are at least assembled here in the USA.

http://www.aespeakers.com/pics/shop_tour/PICT1769.jpg


yeah, I think this too. they are really inexpensive.

well, thats why they are cheap....the cones are in upside down. :o:

scott fitlin
03-23-2010, 11:45 AM
Umm hmm, or maybe they have to put the 2nd cone in place, for Push-Pull operation? :blink:

robertbartsch
03-23-2010, 11:48 AM
Yeh, I bought a center channel JBL speaker for a 5-channel TV about 10 years ago. I could not listen to it very well in the big box department store, but I bought it anyway because JBL had a very good reputation. The unit was NOT cheap.

Anyway, when I got home I realized I had purchased a piece of junk. All the things we have come accustomed to expecting from JBL (high efficiency, clear clean sound, great presence and big dynamic range, flat responce, etc.) were missing.

Although I never took the thing apart, I'm reasonably certain that it did not have flat wire coils, strong motors, cast not stamped frames, machined not stamped top plates, etc.

I tossed the POS in the trash a year or so later.

The JBL Professional series drivers are still the industry standard and the company's stock price (HAR) has trippled in the last year, so they must be doing something right, however.

scott fitlin
03-23-2010, 11:58 AM
I have no idea how good, or not, these woofers are. They look interesting. I wouldn't say they are JBL woofers. But I honestly have no idea of how they sound, either. They could be good, maybe not the TOP OF THE GAME, OMG PERFORMANCE, but still a good bang for the buck driver. And, the manufacturer claims they do BEAT OUT name brands.

According to the manufacturers claims, they do everything in house, and I was looking at their 18in woofer, and what caught my attention is that they use an underhung coil. it's interesting, and I want to know more. But, how can a company like this offer these kinds of products at all? When other MAJOR companies have stopped making drivers using these topologies because it was too costly to produce!

OTOH, and please don't shoot me for saying this, Eminence offers drivers at very low prices, and are also made here in the U.S. They are not JBL, and still, they sell a large amount of drivers. Again, they are not JBL, but for some applications, they are not bad, either. They have a few woofers that sound pretty good in certain apps, and offer really good bang for the buck. Sure, they ain't got no 2245 equivalent, but many guys built the Lab subs, using the Eminence 12in Lab woofer, and swear by it.

Mr. Widget
03-23-2010, 12:35 PM
The JBL Professional series drivers are still the industry standard and the company's stock price (HAR) has trippled in the last year, so they must be doing something right, however.Don't even go there...

Lehman looked pretty good in 2005, 2006, and even 2007... I thought we all learned the relevance of the market recently. :(


Widget

4313B
03-23-2010, 12:40 PM
The JBL Professional series drivers are still the industry standard and the company's stock price (HAR) has trippled in the last year, so they must be doing something right, however.That's weird... my take on things was that the folks with stock options were engaged in nefarious activities... them doing something right would never have crossed my mind. In fact, I just flat out don't buy it.

Don't even go there...

Lehman looked pretty good in 2005, 2006, and even 2007... I thought we all learned the relevance of the market recently. :(:rotfl: Yeah, what he said. :p

OTOH, and please don't shoot me for saying this, Eminence offers drivers at very low prices, and are also made here in the U.S. They are not JBL, and still, they sell a large amount of drivers. Again, they are not JBL, but for some applications, they are not bad, either. They have a few woofers that sound pretty good in certain apps, and offer really good bang for the buck. Sure, they ain't got no 2245 equivalent, but many guys built the Lab subs, using the Eminence 12in Lab woofer, and swear by it.Yeah but try as they might the wannabees will never, ever be a part of the Lansing Heritage. Hell, JBL itself is hell bent on working its way out of the Lansing Heritage too! :rotfl:

scott fitlin
03-23-2010, 01:14 PM
Yeah but try as they might the wannabees will never, ever be a part of the Lansing Heritage. Hell, JBL itself is hell bent on working its way out of the Lansing Heritage too! :rotfl:I DID say that they are not JBL!

Then again, Eminence also OEM,s many drivers for other large manufacturers too.

JBL may be bent on working it's way out of Lansing Heritage, but, what if they accidentally work their way out of the markets they really do want to keep?

To be really honest, Eminence is the dominant driver manufacturer for the MI markets, both DIY, and OEM designs for instrument amp makers. as JBL once had DIY, and Fender, among others, I'm sure. IMO, I never looked at Eminence as a JBL wannabe, it seems as if they have enough of their own market for what they make and DON'T needtobe JBL!

I am not being sarcastic, either. No one I know is truly inspired by JBL,s Tijuana Taxi Ride this coming June. Cuts both ways,:dont-know

Wagner
03-23-2010, 01:43 PM
I DID say that they are not JBL!

Then again, Eminence also OEM,s many drivers for other large manufacturers too.

JBL may be bent on working it's way out of Lansing Heritage, but, what if they accidentally work their way out of the markets they really do want to keep?

To be really honest, Eminence is the dominant driver manufacturer for the MI markets, both DIY, and OEM designs for instrument amp makers. as JBL once had DIY, and Fender, among others, I'm sure. IMO, I never looked at Eminence as a JBL wannabe, it seems as if they have enough of their own market for what they make and DON'T needtobe JBL!

I am not being sarcastic, either. No one I know is truly inspired by JBL,s Tijuana Taxi Ride this coming June. Cuts both ways,:dont-know


http://www.nrtw.org/images/us-map.gif





Thomas

Wagner
03-23-2010, 01:46 PM
http://www.eminence-speaker.com/Imgs/home_lower.jpg

Wagner
03-23-2010, 01:57 PM
Wow, as long as everyone is beating this place to an angry pulp, maybe, if we ask really nice, we could be founding members of the Eminence Heritage website. ;)

Oh wait, nobody wants to be members of an Eminence heritage site ...


Missed my point entirely...........................:(

..........or DID you? :)

Thomas

Wagner
03-23-2010, 02:00 PM
Eminence History: In 1966, Bob Gault founded Eminence and what was to become the world's largest loudspeaker manufacturing company after working as an engineer for Magnavox and CTS (Chicago Telephone Supply). Ironically, Gault started Eminence hoping to manufacture three 18" speakers per day, based on a commitment from Ampeg's Everett Hull. Under the leadership of Gault and most recently his son, Rob, the company's capacity has grown to over 10,000 speakers per day, employing over 200 people.

Hartley Peavey summed up Gault's commitment to engineering and the music industry recently when he wrote, "My friendship and business relationship with Bob Gault has endured for over 32 years. Why? We both share the dream of building something better for less than the competition charges".

Gault was the president of Eminence from the company's inception until 1992. He officially retired in 1993, but continued to make valuable contributions to the company. Gault passed away on October 4, 2002. He was a husband, father, and grandfather. Gault was also an avid golfer. He will be greatly missed by this family, the music industry, and the Eminence community.

Eminence Comments & Quotes:

THE INDUSTRY STANDARD - ANYTHING BUT STANDARD

Eminence now has an extraordinary proportion of the world's greatest musical equipment. Nobody knows more about loudspeakers. Eminence has a manufacturing capacity of over 10,000 pieces per day building over 6,000 unique loudspeaker specifications ... our loudspeakers are widely used but they are anything but standard!

The Genuine Eminence Line of speakers, drivers, and horns represents the world's widest choice of great sounding loudspeakers MADE IN THE USA! No speaker manufacture in the USA even comes close to Eminence.

The Eminence roots are in custom manufacturing. The design and manufacture of special models for a whole range of leading music equipment companies is still the bulk of Eminence business. Eminence has produced thousands of confidential manufacturer-specific formulas since 1966.

Currently we produce approximately 10,000 raw frame drivers per day. With production numbers like this, coupled with over 30 years of experience, it's no wonder virtually every manufacturer in the world builds equipment powered by Eminence drivers!

"If you have listened to live music, it is likely you have listened to Eminence!"

Peavey was one of the first companies ever to do business with Eminence. I first met Bob (Gault) and Paul Lovegren (his future partner in Eminence ) when both were at CTS in Paducah, Kentucky. They were kind enough to listen to a "crazy kid from Mississippi" who had a dream about building the best gear, at fair and reasonable prices! At that time (1964), what was to become Peavey Electronics Corporation was little more than a "hope and prayer". What I found in Bob and Paul were two "kindred spirits" who had their own dreams of building a better product but doing so in different way that would yield better speakers at fair and reasonable prices.
My friendship and business relationship with Bob Gault (Eminence) has endured for over 32 years. Why ?...We both share the dream of building something better for less than the competition charges. Both Eminence and Peavey have succeeded at this together, and this has been an ongoing process for more than three decades.
Both of our companies have forever changed the marketplace (each in its own way) but interestingly, by essentially doing the same thing, i.e. building a better product by daring to be different. We are proud to claim Eminence as one our of our major suppliers just as they have been since the beginning of both companies . We are hopeful that this "winning combination" will continue for another three decades or longer.
Hartley D. Peavey, CEO/Chairman of the Board,
Peavey Electronics Corporation

We use Eminence speakers for our highly successful range of bass products. Part of that success, we feel sure, is due to Eminence who time and again give us the right tone at the right price.
Marshall Amplification

Eminence = Price + Quality + Delivery = Best Buy. Good people and good product makes this a good company!!!
Brian Weafer, Yorkville

As a designer of world class amplifiers, I have found the loudspeaker can be as important in "shaping" the ultimate sounds and tone as the amplifier itself. Unlike many applications (such as sound reinforcements, studio playback, audiophile etc.) where "dead flat" response is the usual goal and can be scientifically achieved, speakers for my needs often require a custom, somewhat "non linear" design. Furthermore, I expect no less than the best possible quality in the speakers used in my products. The friendly and efficient engineering staff at Eminence have been great to work with to meet these needs. The result? Durable speakers that not hold up to our rigorous demands for dependable, high quality components, but also enhance our product line and have become part of our signature sound.
Michael J. Soldano, Jr. President, Soldano Custom Amplification

Since 1969 Eminence Speakers have been proudly featured in our product line. Eminence and P.R.O. - American made with pride for the world market.
Art Hilton, P.R.O. (Professional Speaker Systems)

Roland A.D. has been purchasing Eminence Speakers for quite sometime now. We are very satisfied with the quality of the product and the service they provide for us.
Mark Tsuruta, Vice President, General Manager, Roland Audio

Eminence has been a tremendous part of the growth and success of our products. They have always been able to take our ideas or concepts of a speaker we maybe looking for to match our amplifiers and satisfy our engineers with the perfect product. And almost always on time within budget and meeting beating the performance criteria that we have set forth.
Their design staff are always great to work with. Our Acoustic Lab Engineers can always rely on Eminence for cooperation in designing new transducers . It is a collaborative effort and the end result is a better speaker than either side developing it by itself.
Ampeg (SLM)

Great Price, High Quality, On Time Delivery, Prompt Response.
Gallien Technology

The company and the people have been an invaluable vendor for our company. Their quality and service has been a major part of Genz Benz Enclosures reliability and reputation.
Jeff Genzler, Genz Benz

Since the start of Hartke Systems in 1984, Eminence has supplied us with parts for our products. Even in the beginning when our orders were small we were treated as important customers. This can be crucial to the growth of any small company. Eminence has been and is an important key to our success. Rob and the boys at Eminence run a truly great American company. They deliver quality products on time and they get the orders right. What makes these guys even cooler is their love of music . Whenever I see them at trade shows they are always planning a nightly assault on the local music scene. Long live Eminence!!!
Larry Hartke, Hartke Systems

Thank you for providing quality subwoofer drivers to M&K for over 20 years.
Miller & Kriesel Sound

We have used Eminence speakers for a number of years now and found good consistent quality, excellent service and great engineering assistance.
McBride Loudspeaker Source Ltd.

Eminence has continually supplied SoundTube with high quality, close tolerance drivers, helping SoundTube to create superior products that customers count on for exceptional sound, consistency and durability.
David Wiener , President & CEO of SoundTube Entertainment Eminence Speakers are a tremendous part of our custom amplifiers. We are quite pleased with their performance and the customer service we receive.
Julia Buffington, Evans Custom Amplifiers DOD uses Eminence speakers in many of our guitar and bass amplifiers. We are satisfied with the speakers' performance. We like the excellent service and relationship that we enjoy with Eminence. They are flexible and responsive.
Tom Cram, DOD/Digitech

Wagner
03-23-2010, 02:02 PM
What can be accomplished when you take punitive tax rates and Labor Unions out of the equation.

What's the housing market like in Kentucky right now?

Thomas

scott fitlin
03-23-2010, 02:09 PM
Wow, as long as everyone is beating this place to an angry pulp, maybe, if we ask really nice, we could be founding members of the Eminence Heritage website. ;)

Oh wait, nobody wants to be members of an Eminence heritage site ...No, I am not angry. But, we are discussing ALL things JBL, and other options, as well as companies that do continue to manufacture here in the U.S.A! Like it or not, JBL,s move, is something to discuss, and someone brought up AES drivers, they look interesting.

We are not strictly limited to only discussing the positive aspects of JBL! We are making comparisons of the types of drivers manufactured by JBL, today, and WHERE, and other USA brands making interesting items, however, no one, certainly not I, is saying eminence is an alternative to JBL! Only that Eminence and AES manufacture here.

Wagner
03-23-2010, 02:16 PM
What's the housing market like in VA right now?? sheesh!

It depends on where you are, but the tax base is hammered pretty hard, a lot of manufacturing has gone offshore - pretty much like everywhere else, I hear ...

Philip Morris is still in Richmond, tho they pulled out of NC and Kentucky -
but if they get hammered with any more penalties, they'll likely go offshore too.

These days a lot of the money gets generated in Northern Virgina, near DC -
but that gets shipped down to Richmond and they keep most of it,
not spending much on roads and infrastructure up here!


What? What's with the "sheesh"? It has EVERYTHING to with it (whether they stay or go).

And yes, you are correct, the printing presses are running 24 hours a day I heard. ;)

Thomas

Loren42
03-23-2010, 02:20 PM
But, how can a company like this offer these kinds of products at all? When other MAJOR companies have stopped making drivers using these topologies because it was too costly to produce!


AE Speakers is a business serving a niche market. JBL is trying to be all things to all people.

I like Porsche's slogan that states that their car is not designed to be all things to all people, but everything to someone. They serve a niche market and their focus is sharper than companies like Ford. It makes it easier for Porsche to earn #1 for customer satisfaction world wide, which they did according to JD Powers.

Wagner
03-23-2010, 02:29 PM
What's the housing market like in VA right now?? sheesh!

It depends on where you are, but the tax base is hammered pretty hard, a lot of manufacturing has gone offshore - pretty much like everywhere else, I hear ...

Philip Morris is still in Richmond, tho they pulled out of NC and Kentucky -
but if they get hammered with any more penalties, they'll likely go offshore too.

These days a lot of the money gets generated in Northern Virgina, near DC -
but that gets shipped down to Richmond and they keep most of it,
not spending much on roads and infrastructure up here!

There is no "tax base" without manufacturing and it's subsequent employment of the folks in and around the area. It's that simple.

"Penalties"? Another word for taxes. Emasculate the tobacco industry, put many otherwise unemployable folks out of work, then wonder why THEY can't make their house payment or rent.
Yet, all the while, taxing the SH&T out of the end product.

It's like watching a bad movie.

Thomas

scott fitlin
03-23-2010, 02:33 PM
AE Speakers is a business serving a niche market. JBL is trying to be all things to all people.

I like Porsche's slogan that states that their car is not designed to be all things to all people, but everything to some people. They serve a niche market and their focus is sharper than companies like Ford. It makes it easier for Porsche to earn #1 for customer satisfaction world wide, which they did according to JD Powers.I know. I looked at the site you posted the link, and I was actually quite surprised to see what they make, and read their mission statements. Their 18in woofer has interest to me, as I use mostly JBL, but of the twenty 18,s in my room, 4 of them are not JBL.

I use JBL horns and tweeters, but I also use TAD 15,s! And we always have a little TAD TALK pop up here and there.

To be clear, the things I use JBL, as long as the quality remains JBL, I will continue to use JBL! But, my room was NEVER 100% JBL, we started with Altec, and, then became JBL and Altec.

Today, I still use MOSTLY JBL, but, also have some other needs.

Wagner
03-23-2010, 02:34 PM
You said what's the housing mkt like in Kentucky and I replied with
"What's the housing mkt like in VA" because we are a right-to-work state as well.

My brother-in-law in Richmond area has jumped careers a few times as companies like Stanley moved out,
and he's trying to keep a decent paying job (daughter in college, etc)

Sheesh just meant the mortgage crisis crashed pretty hard here, too.
Not like Ohio, of course, but there are a lot of defaults, a lot of folks under water and walking away.
We see it on the local news all over the area.


Come try Kalifonia for a while. The numbers where you are, are a drop in the bucket.
The Southern states are essentially sound; why do you think so many new folks are heading your way.
Sad part is, "call a place paradise, kiss it goodbye"
Virginia is the place to be right now though, the majority of their law makers still know what the Constitution is.
You'll be "OK" for a good while there! ;)

Thomas

scott fitlin
03-23-2010, 02:35 PM
There is no "tax base" without manufacturing and it's subsequent employment of the folks in and around the area. It's that simple.

"Penalties"? Another word for taxes. Emasculate the tobacco industry, put many otherwise unemployable folks out of work, then wonder why THEY can't make their house payment or rent.
Yet, all the while, taxing the SH&T out of the end product.

It's like watching a bad movie.

ThomasHold up a second. This is a discussion about JBL manufacturing, and a few other audio items popped up. Tax bases, housing markets, and politics weren't part of this. Please keep this thread to audio!

Wagner
03-23-2010, 02:51 PM
Hold up a second. This is a discussion about JBL manufacturing, and a few other audio items popped up. Tax bases, housing markets, and politics weren't part of this. Please keep this thread to audio!


Same mistakes apply to both. Just citing similar examples. You don't think our current condition, our "economy" and current consumer trends have a direct impact and connection to what JBL (Harman) is doing?

It's the same cancer, it's just spreading to another body part and in this case it's hitting very close to home (and our hearts).

That's generally when people start to complain. And when it's too late.

ALL roads lead to China bud. Not good :bs:

Thomas

scott fitlin
03-23-2010, 03:03 PM
The thread is about JBL, and a few other audio brands popped up. Tobacco, taxes, politics, housing, and unions are not welcome discussion!

The forum has rules, ones you agreed to abide by when you joined!

Please respect our forum rules.

Mr. Widget
03-23-2010, 03:05 PM
Hey Wagner (Thomas) and Heather and everyone else... we've already had a multi-hundred post thread discussing the politics of this subject.

We won't be having another. OK?

We all agree that we are disappointed that JBL under the control of Harman International has plans to stop making product in the USA. So instead of going on about chickens and eggs, Red State-Blue State and all the rest, please give it a rest.
Thanks.


Widget

cooky1257
03-23-2010, 03:45 PM
It's the same cancer, it's just spreading to another body part and in this case it's hitting very close to home (and our hearts).



We Brits are big on irony and this post, following your(OT) tobacco tax lament is a classic.
:applaud:
Those AE baskets look a like piece of art.

Wagner
03-23-2010, 04:02 PM
We Brits are big on irony and this post, following your(OT) tobacco tax lament is a classic.
:applaud:
Those AE baskets look a like piece of art.


Sincere thanks to you,

Thomas

4313B
03-23-2010, 05:30 PM
Those AE baskets look a like piece of art.Not my kind of art. :no: To be fair, I think the 1500AL is ugly too. Thankfully it gets bolted to a baffle and has a chance to look "normal". :rotfl:

cooky1257
03-24-2010, 09:31 AM
Not my kind of art. :no: To be fair, I think the 1500AL is ugly too. Thankfully it gets bolted to a baffle and has a chance to look "normal". :rotfl:

:D I did say a 'piece' not a 'work'....:D

scott fitlin
03-24-2010, 11:29 AM
:D I did say a 'piece' not a 'work'....:DThey look similar to the old Gauss frames, to me.

robertbartsch
03-24-2010, 12:18 PM
My JBL re-coner has been a Harman stockholder for decades and he passes out buttons at the annual shareholder's meeting that say, "NO MORE CHINESE JUNK"

He is totally against the current management moves at Harman. I think he told me the staff involved at Northridge that make diaphragms and re-cone kits is fairly limited - say a dozen or so people.

I assume the local real estate taxes at Northridge makes the Harman operation there a total cash flow and earnings disaster. (Yeh, I'm a bean counter)

He claims the Crown stuff from China is pure garbage and that his sales of Crown amps is way way down.

Anyway, he makes stage cabs too and fills them with Eminance drivers - lots of induced distortion that guitar players love!

Mr. Widget
03-24-2010, 12:44 PM
"NO MORE CHINESE JUNK"Personally I think they are kinda cool...


Widget

scott fitlin
03-24-2010, 12:47 PM
A Chinese junk!!!!! :applaud::rotfl::thmbsup:

4313B
03-24-2010, 01:09 PM
I think he told me the staff involved at Northridge that make diaphragms and re-cone kits is fairly limited - say a dozen or so people.Outeffinstanding! That means we can fire the ahole making 20 million a year running the dump and pay each of those folks a hundred grand a year to keep doing what they do best. :yes:

timc
03-24-2010, 01:18 PM
Hear Hear!!

robertbartsch
03-24-2010, 01:29 PM
The buttons being past out at the shareholder meeting have a picture of the Chinese junk "sailboat" that is posted above. There is a red circle with a cross through it and the name of the re-coner's shop is also listed.

I have one of the buttons and may post a pic soon. Since the button has an "ad" for a re-coner, I'm not sure it would be OK to post a pic here, however.

So Sidney Harman is still a significant shareholder but has no day-to-day say in management? Apparently, his much younger wife is a Congress women from California and the Harman shut down decision was, obviously, not a hit with her.

If you guys want to protest the decision, I would do it through Sidney's wife rather than write letters directly to the Harman company management which would likely be ignored.

Mr. Widget
03-24-2010, 01:30 PM
Outeffinstanding! That means we can fire the ahole making 20 million a year running the dump and pay each of those folks a hundred grand a year to keep doing what they do best. :yes:Pay him or his successor should he decide to leave $5 million and use the extra $15 million to pay the "high" Northridge rent?

BTW: For those who haven't been to the old Northridge facility, it isn't in a high rent neighborhood. ;)


Widget

Mr. Widget
03-24-2010, 01:34 PM
If you guys want to protest the decision, I would do it through Sidney's wife rather than write letters directly to the Harman company management which would likely be ignored.That's the best suggestion yet, though since her name is Harman she may not want to advertise the fact that a multinational company of the same name was screwing California and America to make a buck. :(


Widget

Loren42
03-24-2010, 01:36 PM
Personally I think they are kinda cool...


Widget

I agree, but poor xmax.

Wagner
03-24-2010, 01:38 PM
The buttons being past out at the shareholder meeting have a picture of the Chinese junk "sailboat" that is posted above. There is a red circle with a cross through it and the name of the re-coner's shop is also listed.

I have one of the buttons and may post a pic soon. Since the button has an "ad" for a re-coner, I'm not sure it would be OK to post a pic here, however.

So Sidney Harman is still a significant shareholder but has no day-to-day say in management? Apparently, his much younger wife is a Congress women from California and the Harman shut down decision was, obviously, not a hit with her.

If you guys want to protest the decision, I would do it through Sidney's wife rather than write letters directly to the Harman company management which would likely be ignored.

Guess you don't know too much about the beloved Congresswoman Jane Harman, representing the 36th Congressional District of California, do you?

Thomas

Wagner
03-24-2010, 01:42 PM
That's the best suggestion yet, though since her name is Harman she may not want to advertise the fact that a multinational company of the same name was screwing California and America to make a buck. :(


Widget

An interesting point to note (to me anyway):

Sidney was Undersecretary of the Department of Commerce during the Carter administration.

I don't think they'll mind.

Thomas

Wagner
03-24-2010, 01:53 PM
I went to the thrift store yesterday and was reminded that even Fisher (WELL post Avery) built their "speakers" down in Chatsworth.

All in and around L. A. , L.A. County (City of Industry) et al
Marantz doing business out of Ventura County, designing some of their best Solid State stuff............Infinity etc etc etc.........

Oh yeah, and some outfit called "JBL"

Used to be a hub, nice place to live.

JBL's held out longer than a lot of 'em.

Thomas

Mr. Widget
03-24-2010, 01:54 PM
Guess you don't know too much about the beloved Congresswoman Jane Harman...


An interesting point to note (to me anyway):...Do you have a point, or are you dragging this into a political direction again?


Widget

Wagner
03-24-2010, 02:11 PM
Do you have a point, or are you dragging this into a political direction again?


Widget


No Mr. Widget, simply suggesting that writing a letter to either would be a waste of time, rather a naive and childish proposition in my opinion. Sidney and Jane's record(s) and actions, respectively speak for themselves. The first sale to Beatrice certainly wasn't altruistically motivated, nor the events up for discussion now.
It's inseparable in my mind, they are both political creatures and have been calling the shots at JBL, off and on, for a LONG time.
But I hear you loud and clear and promise you I will never mention again that JBL and others are moving "off shore" due to any other reason than they just don't like the weather here anymore, or some same such reason.

I am not trying to make this a political debate or a flame war, but again, with this particular topic there IS an 800 lb. gorilla in the room.

I apologize to you, and anyone else I may have offended with my point of view.

I write and say this sincerely,

Thomas

P. S.: Sidney Harman quit being a "hi-fi" guy a LOOOOOOOOONG time ago. Just this writer's opinion.

Mr. Widget
03-24-2010, 02:36 PM
No Mr. Widget, simply suggesting that writing a letter to either would be a waste of time, rather a naive and childish proposition in my opinion. Sidney and Jane's record(s) and actions, respectively speak for themselves. You don't think it would be in the Congresswoman's best political interest to get up and make a stink about yet another company selling out?



P. S.: Sidney Harman quite being a "hi-fi" guy a LOOOOOOOOONG time ago. Just this writer's opinion.Assuming you meant "quit", I'd agree. I don't know much about him, but it may be that he never really was much of a Hi-Fi guy and was always more interested in making a buck than making good music.


Widget

Wagner
03-24-2010, 02:48 PM
You don't think it would be in the Congresswoman's best political interest to get up and make a stink about yet another company selling out?
Widget

No, but then the "politics" are back in the mix and I've publicly vowed to you I'd avoid it. Might I suggest a trip to her website and review her "positions" on things.


Assuming you meant "quit", I'd agree. I don't know much about him, but it may be that he never really was much of a Hi-Fi guy and was always more interested in making a buck than making good music.Widget


EXACTLY! :bouncy: (and now we've come full circle)

Thomas

Mr. Widget
03-24-2010, 02:55 PM
No, but then the "politics" are back in the mix and I've publicly vowed to you I'd avoid it. Might I suggest a trip to her website and review her "positions" on things.I guess my feeling is that you don't have to take up a political stance to see how kissing babies is good for a politician.

That said, I think you are right and we had better not go down that slippery slope...


Widget

robertbartsch
03-24-2010, 02:56 PM
Unfortunately, if you are a hi-fi guy and your company does not make money, you will quickly become a hi-fi guy with no company.

Its possible that over the years, Sidney and Jane did not want to move more stuff offsore but the laws of capitalism forced their hands....

The laws of capitalism are easy - make money or die.

Mr. Widget
03-24-2010, 03:00 PM
Unfortunately, if you are a hi-fi guy and your company does not make money, you will quickly become a hi-fi guy with no company.

Its possible that over the years, Sidney and Jane did not want to move more stuff offsore but the laws of capitalism forced their hands....

The laws of capitalism are easy - make money or die.We've been all over this one. I don't think anyone disagrees with you... Jim Lansing himself was a sort of poster child for this situation, that said, you can make a little less and do good, make more and do bad, or make more today at the cost of tomorrow's profits.


But again, we really have pounded this into the ground.


Widget

Wagner
03-24-2010, 03:02 PM
I guess my feeling is that you don't have to take up a political stance to see how kissing babies is good for a politician.

That said, I think you are right and we had better not go down that slippery slope...


Widget


I agree.

As for you other point, understood, but I've had about all the "baby kissing" I can take. And I don't think I am alone.

On another OT note: I am getting busy, FINALLY hooking up a system LONG in the making. C40s and a little 6BQ5 Class A amp I just finished.

Nothing's ever seemed to be in the same room at the same time! But yes, a crippled old man CAN move (2) loaded C40s from one end of the house to the other, BY HIMSELF! (and still have veneer and corners)

I am exited! :bouncy:

Thomas

JeffW
03-24-2010, 06:18 PM
Unfortunately, if you are a hi-fi guy and your company does not make money, you will quickly become a hi-fi guy with no company.

I think he's the guy who sold it to Beatrice Foods.


Its possible that over the years, Sidney and Jane did not want to move more stuff offsore but the laws of capitalism forced their hands....

The laws of capitalism are easy - make money or die.

Jane Harman is said to be the 2nd wealthiest member of congress with assets in the $160 million range. Being broke isn't really a concern for her or her husband.

4313B
03-24-2010, 06:39 PM
Gina Harman:

http://www.parade.com/news/intelligence-report/archive/100103-one-way-to-create-jobs.html (http://www.parade.com/news/intelligence-report/archive/100103-one-way-to-create-jobs.html)


Recession ups U.S. demand for microloans - Giving- msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29258701/)

Wagner
03-24-2010, 07:14 PM
Gina Harman:

http://www.parade.com/news/intelligence-report/archive/100103-one-way-to-create-jobs.html (http://www.parade.com/news/intelligence-report/archive/100103-one-way-to-create-jobs.html)


Recession ups U.S. demand for microloans - Giving- msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29258701/)


Not Sydney's wife. One of the children:


A Phi Beta Kappa graduate of Smith College in 1966, she graduated from Harvard Law School in 1969 and became a member of the bar in the District of Columbia. She has two children, Brian Frank and Hilary Frank, from her nine-year first marriage to Richard Frank. She also has two younger children, Daniel Geier Harman and Justine Leigh Harman, with her husband Sidney Harman, an audio equipment manufacturer, whom she married in 1980.


Thomas

tomee
03-24-2010, 08:56 PM
Aren't there any US states with a low minimum wage (or none at all) where JBL could move to instead of China? If they're going to re-train people to do the work wayyy over there, why not an alternative here? Or is that where Mexico comes in?

Saw some news recently that Burton Snowboards was closing it's plant in Vermont that made the high end boards - about 50 people losing their jobs. Interestingly they're shifting production of these high end boards to Austria, where it's cheaper to produce them! (All the low end/entry boards are made in China already...)

Robh3606
03-24-2010, 09:06 PM
Where in the US could you pay someone $20 a day including all their expected benefits, sick days, vacation and overhead for the factory they work in??

20.00 USD=136.566 CNY

That's the exchange rate right now with a weak dollar. $500 Chinese dolars a week is a good wage for them. In the Free Trade Zones they live at the factories during the week and get free room and board and food as part of the package. They go home on weekends. They don't have to spend a dime and bring their entire pay check home to their families. They are happy as hell to work and get a job like this there.

Rob:)

Wagner
03-25-2010, 07:29 AM
Unfortunately, if you are a hi-fi guy and your company does not make money, you will quickly become a hi-fi guy with no company.

Its possible that over the years, Sidney and Jane did not want to move more stuff offsore but the laws of capitalism forced their hands....

The laws of capitalism are easy - make money or die.


These links will provide a bit of insight as to the current ownership of our beloved JBL. There are unavoidable political references as they are political people. If you find this sort of material offensive or irrelevant, then please do NOT click on the links. If, on the other hand, you would like to learn more about Jane Harman and Harman International then feel free.

One thing's for certain; it's not your father's "JBL":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKKSiC0BOeo

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-415779932014154459#

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3341296297758182280#

Thomas

4313B
03-25-2010, 07:33 AM
Not Sydney's wife. One of the children:I know, I've met her. Don has met her and I believe Steve has as well.

That's the exchange rate right now with a weak dollar. $500 Chinese dolars a week is a good wage for them. In the Free Trade Zones they live at the factories during the week and get free room and board and food as part of the package. They go home on weekends. They don't have to spend a dime and bring their entire pay check home to their families. They are happy as hell to work and get a job like this there.Yeah, maybe we can all move to that model too.

These links will provide a bit of insight as to the current ownership of our beloved JBL. There are unavoidable political references as they are political people. If you find this sort of material offensive or irrelevant, then please do NOT click on the links. If, on the other hand, you would like to learn more about Jane Harman and Harman International then feel free.

One thing's for certain; it's not your father's "JBL":Nice videos... :barf:
The company I work for has the same kind of plant down there. The guys here hate going down there. The plant itself is nice compared to our hundred year old plant here in Ohio but the surrounding area smells like raw sewage and the people are destitute. Hopefully we can look forward to that in our own country too. It seems to be what everyone wants...

scott fitlin
03-25-2010, 07:56 AM
AND exactly what DID anyone think we were doing everywhere else in the world that got mad at us and kicked us out of their countries that we FIGHT so hard to get back in to?

WAKE UP! This shit has been going on since.....

I'm not advocating what they do, and I am not UN-ADVOCATING, either.

Since it is going to be political, regardless of anything I had to say about it, LETS TALK, what about the GASOLINE we all put in our cars?

What kinds of deals did our gov't, and BIG, BIG,, BIG American oil companies make, to sell out our people, other countries, and THEIR people in, IN THE GRAND TRADITION OF AMERICAN EXPLOITATION?

Wagner
03-25-2010, 08:07 AM
AND exactly what DID anyone think we were doing everywhere else in the world that got mad at us and kicked us out of their countries that we FIGHT so hard to get back in to?

WAKE UP! This shit has been going on since.....

I'm not advocating what they do, and I am not UN-ADVOCATING, either.

Since it is going to be political, regardless of anything I had to say about it, LETS TALK, what about the GASOLINE we all put in our cars?

What kinds of deals did our gov't, and BIG, BIG,, BIG American oil companies make, to sell out our people, other countries, and THEIR people in, IN THE GRAND TRADITION OF AMERICAN EXPLOITATION?


My point is not to carry on the circular jerkster debate and rant on "exploitation", financial colonialism or any of that.

My point is that JBL, as we know and love it, isn't just moving off shore or out of the country..............

It's DEAD and I don't want to accept that fact just yet but we are in denial to think (or discuss) otherwise.

Oh, there'll be bones to pick for a while, but it's DEAD and it ain't coming back.

And folks, forgive me, I think I'm having to tell myself that here, hoping someone will show me otherwise and I can wake up, as from a bad dream.

Thank you James Bullough Lansing! It was a Hell of a run!

Let's treasure what we have. What JBL was really about will live on for a long time if we do.

Thomas

jim3860
03-25-2010, 08:07 AM
Oddly enough I remember when made in Japan items were considered to be crap products and now people look for the label because it indicates a higher level of quality. China I am sure will be the same way, when they first starting producing electronics quality control was a big issue and im sure still is for some items but I would be willing to bet in 10-20 years that will change and their products will be looked at in a different light.

If JBL wants to make the type of profits other companys do then they will have to follow suit, now if they were happy with making a small profit and just keeping their head above water I dont see a problem with staying here in the USA but you have to realize that the people in charge want ever bigger profits not become a small botique company that produces high quality audio products. Look at what Lexicon did with the whole Oppo Blu Ray debacle, greed has became the name of the game.

REGARDS JIM

scott fitlin
03-25-2010, 08:15 AM
Oddly enough I remember when made in Japan items were considered to be crap products and now people look for the label because it indicates a higher level of quality. China I am sure will be the same way, when they first starting producing electronics quality control was a big issue and im sure still is for some items but I would be willing to bet in 10-20 years that will change and their products will be looked at in a different light.

If JBL wants to make the type of profits other companys do then they will have to follow suit, now if they were happy with making a small profit and just keeping their head above water I dont see a problem with staying here in the USA but you have to realize that the people in charge want ever bigger profits not become a small botique company that produces high quality audio products. Look at what Lexicon did with the whole Oppo Blu Ray debacle, greed has became the name of the game.

REGARDS JIMYES, this is true! I was a little boy when this was first really starting to take foothold. And I remember well, my grandparents, and my parents, and their friends saying Japanese made was junk, etc! And back then, we still had "Made In NYC", let alone "Made In USA". Sadly, made In Japan did come to mean Better made than what we make! Detroit got it's ass kicked, now didn't they?

Wagner baby, JBL isn't dead, it is changing and for some the change is unacceptable! But, to me it's like anything else, UNLESS you find something you really like better, at some point you'll be back for more!

For some. though, you'll never buy another item labelled JBL ever again, you'se ell be the screamin mean 'ol SOB,s we have to use moderation on!:rotfl:

scott fitlin
03-25-2010, 08:21 AM
Because, in all seriousness, I been here and done all this before!

Mr. Widget
03-25-2010, 08:50 AM
My point is that JBL, as we know and love it, isn't just moving off shore or out of the country..............

It's DEAD and I don't want to accept that fact just yet but we are in denial to think (or discuss) otherwise.

Oh, there'll be bones to pick for a while, but it's DEAD and it ain't coming back.Assuming they go through with the plant closure, I am afraid you are right.


Oddly enough I remember when made in Japan items were considered to be crap products and now people look for the label because it indicates a higher level of quality. China I am sure will be the same way, when they first starting producing electronics quality control was a big issue and im sure still is for some items but I would be willing to bet in 10-20 years that will change and their products will be looked at in a different light.They are already producing very high quality goods as well as inexpensive crap.

A few have been saying moving to China (and Mexico) will be the death of quality in our beloved brand. While there will undoubtedly be hiccups initially, I have every confidence that any factory in China or Mexico can produce top quality goods given the proper training, management, and time to get the kinks worked out... but that isn't the issue. The issue is that the little company that started in Southern California over 60 years ago will no longer be. Even though it has grown and grown, and with that growth both good and bad have come from it... it simply will no longer be.

Sure this is sad for us as fans of the heritage of Mr. Lansing, but MUCH more importantly it is one more sad factory closing that is driving our country bankrupt. If we as a people don't demand the stop of the free fall manufacturing decline in this country we will have little to offer the rest of the world. We get caught up in the side show of Left and Right ideology... more taxes, less taxes, more freedom, or more regulation. The Karl Roves and David Axelrods spin, spin, spin... people get all wound up and putty in their hands. Free Market my ass, there really is no Free Market, and if someone doesn't put the brakes on this situation, the Dot Com Bubble and the Housing Bubble will feel like minor speed bumps.

America, we've got a problem. It isn't healthcare, it isn't cap and trade, it isn't our national debt, it isn't jobs! It is high value jobs. Without high value jobs and exports the rest is simply a ponzi scheme.


Widget

Wagner
03-25-2010, 09:01 AM
Assuming they go through with the plant closure, I am afraid you are right.

They are already producing very high quality goods as well as inexpensive crap.

A few have been saying moving to China (and Mexico) will be the death of quality in our beloved brand. While there will undoubtedly be hiccups initially, I have every confidence that any factory in China or Mexico can produce top quality goods given the proper training, management, and time to get the kinks worked out... but that isn't the issue. The issue is that the little company that started in Southern California over 60 years ago will no longer be. Even though it has grown and grown, and with that growth both good and bad have come from it... it simply will no longer be.

Sure this is sad for us as fans of the heritage of Mr. Lansing, but MUCH more importantly it is one more sad factory closing that is driving our country bankrupt. If we as a people don't demand the stop of the free fall manufacturing decline in this country we will have little to offer the rest of the world. We get caught up in the side show of Left and Right ideology... more taxes, less taxes, more freedom, or more regulation. The Karl Roves and David Axelrods spin, spin, spin... people get all wound up and putty in their hands. Free Market my ass, there really is no Free Market, and if someone doesn't put the brakes on this situation, the Dot Com Bubble and the Housing Bubble will feel like minor speed bumps.

America, we've got a problem. It isn't healthcare, it isn't cap and trade, it isn't our national debt, it isn't jobs! It is high value jobs. Without high value jobs and exports the rest is simply a ponzi scheme.


Widget


Hallelujah!

Thomas

Mr. Widget
03-25-2010, 09:07 AM
I am not going to run out and buy Martin Logans because they are claiming to be "The Great American Speaker Company", but I do applaud the fact that they are offering a custom shop and acknowledging their heritage.


Widget

Ducatista47
03-25-2010, 09:17 AM
Never having been a fan of the greed - I mean growth model, I applaud the feature section in the new (April 2010) Scientific American. The really big picture is the theme, and the article "Breaking the Growth Habit" is germane to this thread in particular.

The growth model of business makes a very few very wealthy and leaves everything and everyone else in wreckage, the Earth included.

Clark

scott fitlin
03-25-2010, 09:18 AM
Yeah, so now BEING American, is something to capitalize on? Whoop E Doo!

Electrostats ain't my bag any way, holograhic imaging though. However, pay more attention to the way our Gov't moves, in addition to our manufacturers.

BTW, just to say so, IF you have EVER bought ANYTHING at Radio Shack, any resistor, and adapter, YOU HAVE ALREADY BOUGHT MADE IN CHINA beginning MANY MOONS AGO!

And OUR clothing, even our designer brands! Yeah my designer label shirts NEVER say Made In Sri Lanka, or Indonesia! And again, this didn't start happening a year or two ago! Where was everyone then?

jim3860
03-25-2010, 09:32 AM
Assuming they go through with the plant closure, I am afraid you are right.

They are already producing very high quality goods as well as inexpensive crap.

A few have been saying moving to China (and Mexico) will be the death of quality in our beloved brand. While there will undoubtedly be hiccups initially, I have every confidence that any factory in China or Mexico can produce top quality goods given the proper training, management, and time to get the kinks worked out... but that isn't the issue. The issue is that the little company that started in Southern California over 60 years ago will no longer be. Even though it has grown and grown, and with that growth both good and bad have come from it... it simply will no longer be.

Sure this is sad for us as fans of the heritage of Mr. Lansing, but MUCH more importantly it is one more sad factory closing that is driving our country bankrupt. If we as a people don't demand the stop of the free fall manufacturing decline in this country we will have little to offer the rest of the world. We get caught up in the side show of Left and Right ideology... more taxes, less taxes, more freedom, or more regulation. The Karl Roves and David Axelrods spin, spin, spin... people get all wound up and putty in their hands. Free Market my ass, there really is no Free Market, and if someone doesn't put the brakes on this situation, the Dot Com Bubble and the Housing Bubble will feel like minor speed bumps.

America, we've got a problem. It isn't healthcare, it isn't cap and trade, it isn't our national debt, it isn't jobs! It is high value jobs. Without high value jobs and exports the rest is simply a ponzi scheme.


WidgetAgreed 100% I was sorely tempted to say the same things virtually verbatim but was afraid that might be considered political. But true enough once we lose the ability to manufacture products and the knowledge base and the skilled labor to do so we as a country are in serious trouble, and it has been happening for years. Look at all the companies that used to support workers in the USA that have moved away and are not coming back everything from Zippo lighters Kodak cameras almost all textiles and electronics literally thousands of companies and millions of jobs and a way of life for many small towns have came and gone.

Japan started the electronic wars with the transistor radio and actually sold their products at a loss until they gained market share then the rest was history all sanctioned and approved and even paid by in large part by the Japanese goverment, our goverment could learn a lot from this :p

REGARDS JIM

Wagner
03-25-2010, 09:33 AM
Yeah, so now BEING American, is something to capitalize on? Whoop E Doo!

Electrostats ain't my bag any way, holograhic imaging though. However, pay more attention to the way our Gov't moves, in addition to our manufacturers.

BTW, just to say so, IF you have EVER bought ANYTHING at Radio Shack, any resistor, and adapter, YOU HAVE ALREADY BOUGHT MADE IN CHINA beginning MANY MOONS AGO!

And OUR clothing, even our designer brands! Yeah my designer label shirts NEVER say Made In Sri Lanka, or Indonesia! And again, this didn't start happening a year or two ago! Where was everyone then?


What the heck you think I've been trying to say? But then it gets too close to that 3rd rail here..........."politics".


Thomas

Wagner
03-25-2010, 09:37 AM
Yeah, so now BEING American, is something to capitalize on? Whoop E Doo!


It should be.

Thomas

scott fitlin
03-25-2010, 09:41 AM
What the heck you think I've been trying to say? But then it gets too close to that 3rd rail here..........."politics".

We ARE on the same page.

ThomasI always knew what you were trying to say. BUT the problem is it did NOT start with JBL! rather JBL is following what has been done over the last 40 years.

Look, just look at what our Gov't is doing, and WE say NO, and THEY say OH YES, anyway! SOCIALISM!

Heck, I wouldn't want to here , either, If I were them, meaning LBJ!

4313B! He makes a HUGE stink, but the company he works for, BEEN took the Tijuana Taxi! Nobody quitting jobs over it though. We do still all have to eat and etc, etc!

My point is we have been at, what we are speaking against, for so long now, it is commonplace to do. If it were 1967, I would say differently.

Like I said, look at so much of our clothing, yeah, sneakers like Nike were mentioned, and IT doesn't matter, KIDS still want the AIR JORDANS!

Bottom line? Too late, accept or don't, but it is being done, and the precedents to do so were set many generations ago.

scott fitlin
03-25-2010, 09:43 AM
It should be.

ThomasWell, unfortunately, so is making THE BIGGEST PROFIT!

Wagner
03-25-2010, 09:46 AM
I always knew what you were trying to say. BUT the problem is it did NOT start with JBL!

I don't think anyone said it did.

Interesting that when I used non audio, non JBL examples to gently illustrate some of the same points you are making I was scolded.

Mmmm? :)

Thomas

Wagner
03-25-2010, 09:48 AM
Can't we all just get along?! :D

Thomas

scott fitlin
03-25-2010, 09:57 AM
Can't we all just get along?! :D

ThomasNOW you want to get along?

We wanted to NOT go here, but some so desperately NEEDED to go there!

So, now we are here, BUT the problems with your arguments, are simply that this has been going on for so long, and we have been dependent upon American design/Foreign manufacture for so long, we can't turn back now. We just won't, either.

Wagner, you wanted to be a politician, NOW we are all POLITICIANS!

scott fitlin
03-25-2010, 09:58 AM
I don't think anyone said it did.

Interesting that when I used non audio, non JBL examples to gently illustrate some of the same points you are making I was scolded.

Mmmm? :)

ThomasTo be truthful, YOU wanted to continue, so?

Mr. Widget
03-25-2010, 10:02 AM
Never having been a fan of the greed - I mean growth model, I applaud the feature section in the new (April 2010) Scientific American. The really big picture is the theme, and the article "Breaking the Growth Habit" is germane to this thread in particular.

The growth model of business makes a very few very wealthy and leaves everything and everyone else in wreckage, the Earth included.I'll have to look into that.

Unfortunately we even have a political movement that is against science. :blink:

How did we get here? ...this is not my beautiful wife.... :D


Widget

Wagner
03-25-2010, 10:03 AM
NOW you want to get along?

We wanted to NOT go here, but some so desperately NEEDED to go there!

So, now we are here, BUT the problems with your arguments, are simply that this has been going on for so long, and we have been dependent upon American design/Foreign manufacture for so long, we can't turn back now. We just won't, either.

Wagner, you wanted to be a politician, NOW we are all POLITICIANS!


?
I am not arguing with you.

Thomas

Wagner
03-25-2010, 10:09 AM
I'll have to look into that.

Unfortunately we even have a political movement that is against science. :blink:

How did we get here? ...this is not my beautiful wife.... :D


Widget

Ah so, David Byrne!

Thanks for reminding me, now I'll have to go and dig up "Angels"! :bouncy:

Thomas

jim3860
03-25-2010, 10:10 AM
Well, unfortunately, so is making THE BIGGEST PROFIT!

True and we as a country have only ourselves to blame we have allowed these things to happen through our own actions.

Consumers want things cheaper, why go to your mom and pop store to purchase a loaf of bread or a gallon of milk when you can get the same bread and milk at Walmart for half the price?

Why go to your local mens store to get your clothes when you can go to K Mart and get the same jeans and shirts for half price?

Why go to your local furniture store or appliance store or hardware store or small engine shop? when you can go to Best Buy, Home Depot, Sears etc and get your products at half price?

All these huge chains have one thing in common.... they purchase overseas for far cheaper in bulk than the small stores can, they get huge tax breaks for opening new stores which further drive out the little shops they simply cant compete period. All these larger stores to remain competitive with each other have to sell for less than a competing store which means they cant purchase USA made products if they want to stay in business and the cycle continues.

The end result of all this is that down the road we all pay the price in lost jobs, skilled trades, tax sources, ability to make a liveable income which we are seeing right now as a result of things that started in the 60's and 70's and we will continue to see unless this trend changes.



REGARDS JIM

Doc Mark
03-25-2010, 10:53 AM
Greetings, All,

Many outstanding points have been made in this thread, and even though it's wandered around a bit, the subjects under discussion are very, very important to us all!! Sweet Bride and I live in a small mountain town, and do our level best NOT to have to do down the mountain to do our shopping. We try, as best we can, do support our local food stores, restaurants, and other businesses. Yes, we occasionally have to venture down to a larger store for a certain item, or two. But, mostly, we shop where we live and support our local businesses. As a matter of principal, we seldom walk into Walmart, or any of the "big box" stores, unless we absolutely HAVE to do so.

Do I think that most other folks will think about, and then undertake doing the same thing? Not likely, unfortunately. Like most of the rest of you, however, Sweet Bride and I very much miss the days when American companies were proud to put the MOST they could into their products, and charged a fair price for those stellar efforts, like JBL did, back in the day. These days, most companies seem driven to put the very LEAST into their products, and in so doing, make their profits. But, then again, their customers are from the "throw away" generation, who really don't seem to expect their things to last, then when they do not, toss them out and go buy another just like it..... or worse. They want to pay the least, and the least is what they receive in return, both in goods and services. Go figure......

I absolutely agree that, if we are to survive as a Country, the US MUST change it's course, and quickly. But, we have obstructionists of all political stripes, happy to make their own "30 pieces of silver", no matter how distasteful, misguided, or even illegal, their activities, with, seemingly, little to no regard for how things go for the future of the US. May God bless us with the wisdom and the strength to clean our house enough so that the house may actually be saved from the wrecking ball. Take care, keep the faith, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

scott fitlin
03-25-2010, 11:01 AM
?
I am not arguing with you.

ThomasBut you did what you wanted to, and so, NOW will I!

Wagner
03-25-2010, 11:02 AM
Greetings, All,

Many outstanding points have been made in this thread, and even though it's wandered around a bit, the subjects under discussion are very, very important to us all!! Sweet Bride and I live in a small mountain town, and do our level best NOT to have to do down the mountain to do our shopping. We try, as best we can, do support our local food stores, restaurants, and other businesses. Yes, we occasionally have to venture down to a larger store for a certain item, or two. But, mostly, we shop where we live and support our local businesses. As a matter of principal, we seldom walk into Walmart, or any of the "big box" stores, unless we absolutely HAVE to do so.

Do I think that most other folks will think about, and then undertake doing the same thing? Not likely, unfortunately. Like most of the rest of you, however, Sweet Bride and I very much miss the days when American companies were proud to put the MOST they could into their products, and charged a fair price for those stellar efforts, like JBL did, back in the day. These days, most companies seem driven to put the very LEAST into their products, and in so doing, make their profits. But, then again, their customers are from the "throw away" generation, who really don't seem to expect their things to last, then when they do not, toss them out and go buy another just like it..... or worse. They want to pay the least, and the least is what they receive in return, both in goods and services. Go figure......

I absolutely agree that, if we are to survive as a Country, the US MUST change it's course, and quickly. But, we have obstructionists of all political stripes, happy to make their own "30 pieces of silver", no matter how distasteful, misguided, or even illegal, their activities, with, seemingly, little to no regard for how things go for the future of the US. May God bless us with the wisdom and the strength to clean our house enough so that the house may actually be saved from the wrecking ball. Take care, keep the faith, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc


Yes
Good Man
+1

Thomas

scott fitlin
03-25-2010, 11:40 AM
Who said we get to survive as a 1st rate nation? Don't ya know? WE are the NEW 3rd world country!

Tis us that will now serve the world, as the world served us for the last 150 years, or so.

Get used to your new position in life.

Wagner
03-25-2010, 12:35 PM
Who said we get to survive as a 1st rate nation? Don't ya know? WE are the NEW 3rd world country!

Tis us that will now serve the world, as the world served us for the last 150 years, or so.

Get used to your new position in life.


Sad to hear you feel that way.

Thomas

scott fitlin
03-25-2010, 12:45 PM
We are all entitled to our opinion, even when NOT asked for them, Ayy, Mr. Wagner?

JoMoCo
03-25-2010, 12:47 PM
Failure to recognize REAL enemies leaves friends arguing amongst each other...:hmm:

Deafness is both a cause & a result that grows all the more...:blink:

Wagner
03-25-2010, 12:51 PM
Failure to recognize REAL enemies leaves friends arguing amongst each other...:hmm:

Deafness is both a cause & a result that grows all the more...:blink:


You got that right!

Thomas

hjames
03-25-2010, 01:21 PM
Great for you! Only time I hit Walmart is for prescriptions - I never buy food or goods there ... but we aren't the prime problem. Venture to say most of us are fairly comfortable - certainly have enough extra to have a speaker hobby :D but folks who are tight on their money shop these places to make ends meet. Younger folks without the older values shop these places so they can get more, and some of the folks who weren't born here shop there to stretch their dollars as well.

So, bottom line, no matter how many of us (boomer) folks stay out of Wally world, I don't think were the big problem - so, how to you stop the others, short of tarrifs on imports or land use policies that discourage big box stores ... ?
How do we talk JBL into going to the boutique market?
Sadly I think that's not possible, and they're just going to be the Memorex, RCA and Zenith of this decade ...

So sad ...


Greetings, All,

Many outstanding points have been made in this thread, and even though it's wandered around a bit, the subjects under discussion are very, very important to us all!! Sweet Bride and I live in a small mountain town, and do our level best NOT to have to do down the mountain to do our shopping. We try, as best we can, do support our local food stores, restaurants, and other businesses. Yes, we occasionally have to venture down to a larger store for a certain item, or two. But, mostly, we shop where we live and support our local businesses. As a matter of principal, we seldom walk into Walmart, or any of the "big box" stores, unless we absolutely HAVE to do so.

Do I think that most other folks will think about, and then undertake doing the same thing? Not likely, unfortunately. Like most of the rest of you, however, Sweet Bride and I very much miss the days when American companies were proud to put the MOST they could into their products, and charged a fair price for those stellar efforts, like JBL did, back in the day. These days, most companies seem driven to put the very LEAST into their products, and in so doing, make their profits. But, then again, their customers are from the "throw away" generation, who really don't seem to expect their things to last, then when they do not, toss them out and go buy another just like it..... or worse. They want to pay the least, and the least is what they receive in return, both in goods and services. Go figure......

I absolutely agree that, if we are to survive as a Country, the US MUST change it's course, and quickly. But, we have obstructionists of all political stripes, happy to make their own "30 pieces of silver", no matter how distasteful, misguided, or even illegal, their activities, with, seemingly, little to no regard for how things go for the future of the US. May God bless us with the wisdom and the strength to clean our house enough so that the house may actually be saved from the wrecking ball. Take care, keep the faith, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

Wagner
03-25-2010, 01:36 PM
Great for you! Only time I hit Walmart is for prescriptions - I never buy food or goods there ... but we aren't the prime problem. Venture to say most of us are fairly comfortable - certainly have enough extra to have a speaker hobby :D but folks who are tight on their money shop these places to make ends meet. Younger folks without the older values shop these places so they can get more, and some of the folks who weren't born here shop there to stretch their dollars as well.

So, bottom line, no matter how many of us (boomer) folks stay out of Wally world, I don't think were the big problem - so, how to you stop the others, short of tarrifs on imports or land use policies that discourage big box stores ... ?
How do we talk JBL into going to the boutique market?
Sadly I think that's not possible, and they're just going to be the Memorex, RCA and Zenith of this decade ...

So sad ...


My son and I made a case study of our local WalMart.
We compared prices on 25 random items, from cookies to pellet rifles with the prices available at other brick and mortar chains here in the area for identical items.
Our conclusion from our little sampling? WalMart enjoys the enormous draw they do because of clever marketing,
AND the very intelligent use of high profile loss leaders combined with effective television advertising.
It's all a big lie, but almost everyone that enters their stores is convinced going in that they are going to save a shit pot full of money.
Except for the loss leaders (which all big chain stores feature from week to week) you'd be just as well off at Target, KMart or any of 'em.

Only thing Walmart has to offer that beats the other general merchandise giants is more crap in one place under one roof. At WalMart you can buy braided fishing line, a gallon of milk, a new car battery and a bra all in one stop for example. But there are other stores that offer the same, just maybe not as grotesque. General stores, it's not a new concept obviously; only the SCALE.

Kind of like a Costco without the membership fee (which is no longer the "great deal" it once was).

AND, chances are you can get all the crap you need for a week or two with one stop, which means one trip, which is I guess a savings needed and valued by some.

All marketing and volume (with a little brain washing (loss leader) propaganda thrown in).

Working well for them :bs:

If you don't believe me, try it yourself.

Thomas

jim3860
03-25-2010, 04:34 PM
Great for you! Only time I hit Walmart is for prescriptions - I never buy food or goods there ... but we aren't the prime problem. Venture to say most of us are fairly comfortable - certainly have enough extra to have a speaker hobby :D but folks who are tight on their money shop these places to make ends meet. Younger folks without the older values shop these places so they can get more, and some of the folks who weren't born here shop there to stretch their dollars as well.

So, bottom line, no matter how many of us (boomer) folks stay out of Wally world, I don't think were the big problem - so, how to you stop the others, short of tarrifs on imports or land use policies that discourage big box stores ... ?
How do we talk JBL into going to the boutique market?
Sadly I think that's not possible, and they're just going to be the Memorex, RCA and Zenith of this decade ...

So sad ...I know that the few of us older people that still prefer to shop as much as possible for USA made products and that try to support our local economy and small businesses isnt going to change the world and yes it is sad being able to see the big picture and yet not being able to change it. Everything that we as a country do today will affect us later.

REGARDS JIM

JeffW
03-25-2010, 04:48 PM
My dad is a long time member of the NRA, but I think he's about done with them.

There's not a more RAH RAH USA! organization around, but each year he gets a little membership "gift"- a hat, a knife, a T-Shirt, etc., and they are all Made in China. And he let them know about it (he has a tendency to do that). Didn't change a thing except his membership status as of next year.

Who knows, he's 84 now and has 3 different 280Z variants, so it's not that he's utterly opposed to foreign goods- we had Volkswagon Beetles when I was a kid- but he sure doesn't like the juxtaposition of the NRA jingoism and their Chinese trinket gifts.

Wagner
03-25-2010, 05:17 PM
My dad is a long time member of the NRA, but I think he's about done with them.

There's not a more RAH RAH USA! organization around, but each year he gets a little membership "gift"- a hat, a knife, a T-Shirt, etc., and they are all Made in China. And he let them know about it (he has a tendency to do that). Didn't change a thing except his membership status as of next year.

Who knows, he's 84 now and has 3 different 280Z variants, so it's not that he's utterly opposed to foreign goods- we had Volkswagon Beetles when I was a kid- but he sure doesn't like the juxtaposition of the NRA jingoism and their Chinese trinket gifts.


I don't think anyone is opposed to "foreign goods", just opposed to being dependent on foreigners............for every God damned thing under the Sun. The old "dependence on foreign oil" thing just makes me laugh and then cry a little bit. If it were only oil we'd be in good shape.

That's what I'm opposed to anyway.

Thomas

Wagner
03-25-2010, 05:22 PM
Maybe not speakers, or anything else so much any more, but I do think we're still the World leaders in super filthy PORN! :D

It's sumthin'

Just sayin',

Thomas

jim3860
03-25-2010, 05:24 PM
I don't think anyone is opposed to "foreign goods", just opposed to being dependent on foreigners............for every God damned thing under the Sun. The old "dependence on foreign oil" thing just makes me laugh and then cry a little bit. If it were only oil we'd be in good shape.

That's what I'm opposed to anyway.

Thomas Agreed we are "NOW" a nation of consumers versus producers.



REGARDS JIM

Wagner
03-25-2010, 05:31 PM
Made in U. S. A. porn put the video cassette, camera and VCR within reach of any American with a job. Hey, when they first appeared in the early '70s only Hugh Hefner, movie stars and other Heads of State could afford one!

And no more foolin' with those pesky reels! Life was good during those "service based" economic times!

What a shot in the arm that was for the Asian electronic giants!

Trickle down economics at it's best! :)

Need to start thinkin' about rampin' that deal back up! There's a cure and a solution in there somewhere!

Thomas

hjames
03-25-2010, 07:30 PM
So - do the chinese get off on American Porn??
Isthat how to balance the trade, ya think?

Somehow I doubt it ... I'm guess they have cheaper labour in that industry as well ...


Made in U. S. A. porn put the video cassette, camera and VCR within reach of any American with a job. Hey, when they first appeared in the early '70s only Hugh Hefner, movie stars and other Heads of State could afford one!

And no more foolin' with those pesky reels! Life was good during those "service based" economic times!

What a shot in the arm that was for the Asian electronic giants!

Trickle down economics at it's best! :)

Need to start thinkin' about rampin' that deal back up! There's a cure and a solution in there somewhere!

Thomas

scott fitlin
03-26-2010, 08:33 AM
Porn, who makes it, who buys it, WHO CARES! Has NOTHING to do with JBL, thread is closed.