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Dave Dunbar
03-11-2010, 02:12 PM
I recently acquired a pair of 4412s from a radio station. I've had the woofer surrounds redone. Everything else seems fine (really fine!) except for a shrillness in high-level voices, especially female voices. Even Steve Hoffman's great Joni Mitchell remasterings overload a bit. I've tried them with a number of decent amps, pre-amps and CD players. The harshness in vocals at high volume changes depending on the characteristics of the gear I'm feeding them, but never completely goes away. I don't notice this harshness in friends' high end systems. This characteristic doesn't seem right for speakers this good, but I suspect an issue with the tweeters. I'm listening at a distance of about 8'in a room 17' x 21', at moderately high, but certainly not super-loud, levels. How does one determine if the tweeters are in good shape or if they need repair/replacement?

rdgrimes
03-11-2010, 02:38 PM
Do those have L-pads? The L-pads can cause a variety of similar issues when they are old and dirty. Try spinning them around a few times and see if it makes a difference.

Progneta
03-11-2010, 10:45 PM
Usually on lpads I spray the snot out of them with an air compressor to get debris out then use a contact cleaner - lube combo (made for electronics of course) and this really helps that crappiness go away.

Beowulf57
03-12-2010, 08:31 AM
Dirty connection contacts can also contribute...clean them all!

BJL
03-12-2010, 08:33 AM
Do those tweets (035Ti-something-or-other-?) have a foam under the dome that's turned to goo ?
Just a WAG

Wagner
03-12-2010, 12:14 PM
I recently acquired a pair of 4412s from a radio station. I've had the woofer surrounds redone. Everything else seems fine (really fine!) except for a shrillness in high-level voices, especially female voices. Even Steve Hoffman's great Joni Mitchell remasterings overload a bit. I've tried them with a number of decent amps, pre-amps and CD players. The harshness in vocals at high volume changes depending on the characteristics of the gear I'm feeding them, but never completely goes away. I don't notice this harshness in friends' high end systems. This characteristic doesn't seem right for speakers this good, but I suspect an issue with the tweeters. I'm listening at a distance of about 8'in a room 17' x 21', at moderately high, but certainly not super-loud, levels. How does one determine if the tweeters are in good shape or if they need repair/replacement?


They all (the Titanium) sound a bit edgy to me too, for what that's worth.
Seems more pronounced with digital sources as well.
I think a lot of it is the extreme resolution and extension they offer, just not use to hearing so much information.
Most annoying on run of the mill pop and rock, not so much with nicely recorded Jazz.
Turn the pots down into the negative territory, it's what I have to do as I have a very "hard" room.
You'll grow accustomed to it I think as your brain gets used to processing so much. Get to know them at lower listening levels at first.
I have wondered about the damping stuff too though, but I don't want to fool around with them unless I had some appropriate material on hand and I don't know what that would be.

Thomas

Dave Dunbar
03-12-2010, 05:56 PM
Thanks to everyone for the responses. Thomas, I appreciate your thoughtful comments. I actually have had the 4412 for two years, so I've done quite a bit of listening to all sorts of music. And I've tried the "low level" test a number of times. I still hear it at lower volume, though it's not as pronounced. I've never fully accepted that everything is as it should be. I'd get someone to look at them, but we don't have a good JBL specialist here in Cincinnati (at least that I've been able to unearth). My serious dissatisfaction of late came when I had a chance to audition a new set of Acoutic Energy speakers, which have a VERY forward characteristic like the JBLs, but with none of the high end harshness/overload I'm hearing on my 4412s. On the other hand, the 4412 have bass and warmth that the AEs just don't. I'd be quite satisfied with the 4412s if I could clear out this high-end overload thing. So I've tried lots of different gear with the 4412s, and have convinced myself that something is amiss. And I do have the 4412s, not the 4412A, so I've go the tweeter that's tougher to rebuild. And it won't be cheap. But I'm seriously considering it, since it's the only way to be sure.

Wagner
03-12-2010, 06:29 PM
Thanks to everyone for the responses. Thomas, I appreciate your thoughtful comments. I actually have had the 4412 for two years, so I've done quite a bit of listening to all sorts of music. And I've tried the "low level" test a number of times. I still hear it at lower volume, though it's not as pronounced. I've never fully accepted that everything is as it should be. I'd get someone to look at them, but we don't have a good JBL specialist here in Cincinnati (at least that I've been able to unearth). My serious dissatisfaction of late came when I had a chance to audition a new set of Acoutic Energy speakers, which have a VERY forward characteristic like the JBLs, but with none of the high end harshness/overload I'm hearing on my 4412s. On the other hand, the 4412 have bass and warmth that the AEs just don't. I'd be quite satisfied with the 4412s if I could clear out this high-end overload thing. So I've tried lots of different gear with the 4412s, and have convinced myself that something is amiss. And I do have the 4412s, not the 4412A, so I've go the tweeter that's tougher to rebuild. And it won't be cheap. But I'm seriously considering it, since it's the only way to be sure.

I'd turn it down to at least "negative" 3 on the HF adjust, give the surrounds time to break in and then decide if you want to proceed with fixing what MIGHT not be broke.
Like I said, I find them to be too energetic as well even when new, and some agree; when you first dial them back things may seem to go too much in the other wrong direction; muffled or too dull. Relax and listen a while and you will hear that all the fine detail is in fact there.
To me it's the same as making judgments on sound after listening for anomalies with my ears too close and the volume to loud, coupled with "new acquisition" anxiety. Seems to be at its worse with used gear.
I have learned through the experience of ownership that JBL tweeters can be RUTHLESSLY revealing, of both source and material. Takes a little time to get them dialed into your room/brain/acoustic combo.
It's the same to me as volume and bass quantity; a lot of it is perceived. That pesky old ear/brain psycho-acoustic thing.
When I play JBLs with a tube amp they never seem as loud, or loud enough, as they do with the big Solid State, until I realize that I am actually YELLING over the music to say something to the other person in the room I am showing the current set up to.
If you've only had them a short time (days?) I'd give it a couple weeks before I decide something was wrong.

Just my experience.

Thomas

BMWCCA
03-12-2010, 06:35 PM
And I do have the 4412s, not the 4412A, so I've go the tweeter that's tougher to rebuild. And it won't be cheap. But I'm seriously considering it, since it's the only way to be sure.You have the ubiquitous 035Ti, available everywhere from Craig's List bargain L20T, L60T, and L80Ts (cheaper than buying new tweets and you can dump the rest on Ebay if that's your thing).

Got news for you though; they sound "edgy" to me on the L80Ts, too, but it's usually the program source or the CD player when I hear it. Much less when I updated to a more-modern but cheap DVD player. The 052Ti in the 4412A isn't really that different, at least to my ears. :dont-know

Wagner
03-12-2010, 06:38 PM
Thanks to everyone for the responses. Thomas, I appreciate your thoughtful comments. I actually have had the 4412 for two years, so I've done quite a bit of listening to all sorts of music. And I've tried the "low level" test a number of times. I still hear it at lower volume, though it's not as pronounced. I've never fully accepted that everything is as it should be. I'd get someone to look at them, but we don't have a good JBL specialist here in Cincinnati (at least that I've been able to unearth). My serious dissatisfaction of late came when I had a chance to audition a new set of Acoutic Energy speakers, which have a VERY forward characteristic like the JBLs, but with none of the high end harshness/overload I'm hearing on my 4412s. On the other hand, the 4412 have bass and warmth that the AEs just don't. I'd be quite satisfied with the 4412s if I could clear out this high-end overload thing. So I've tried lots of different gear with the 4412s, and have convinced myself that something is amiss. And I do have the 4412s, not the 4412A, so I've go the tweeter that's tougher to rebuild. And it won't be cheap. But I'm seriously considering it, since it's the only way to be sure.

Sorry, missed the part about having them 2 years.

I still wholeheartedly recommend my approach. I have found that a lot of people want to run those pots set at "0" and if it's not "right" to their ears they become anxious that something must be wrong. Try putting on some music with a lot of HF content, at low volume, with the pot fully counter clockwise. Then slowly start to turn the pot clockwise. You will be surprised how much HF output you get with nearly nothing on the pot. STOP the minute you hear the tweeter kick in definitively, and then try that for a while. And don't look at those basically worthless scale numerals and hash marks on the foilcal while you do it! :) Trust your ears. Those damn scales (and the ones on volume pots too) drove me crazy for years until I learned how to ignore them! I think they only have any real meaning (besides driving the literally minded nuts) in an anechoic environment. Aside from use as a repeatable reference mark.

JBL (the good stuff) is in a league of it's own. Takes a little work to dial them in to the typical, less than perfect, listening room.

Thomas

Dave Dunbar
03-13-2010, 11:35 AM
First, let me say that I sincerely apprecitate this forum and its participants. It's gatifying that several knowledgable JBL users have posted helpful responses. I've tried the suggestions about cleaning the l-pads and connectors, and running the tweeter at a lower level. Alas, in my listening room, any setting below about 12 o'clock on the high level control yields a less-than-satisfying high level response relative to the bass and mid-range. My sources are clean. Through my work, I've had access to multiple re-issues of the work of thousands of popular music artists, so I've been able to audition these and select the very best and most natural-sounding reissues of most of the music in which I have an interest. I tend to play music from the 1950s through the 1970s, and for the sake of discussion, please know that I'm confident I'm listening to the cleanest and best-engineered masterings of most what I listen to. I also have access to studios and friends who have first-rate gear. As I've said, I'm thrilled with mid-range and bass performance of the 4412s (even compared to some very good modern speakers), and have only recently become concerned that my highs are overloading after listening to several newer, and admittedly expensive, speakers. So, here's my new question: Would any of you JBL experts here offer your characterization of what the high end on the 4412 should sound like? Assuming the tweeters are right, and a decent amp and CD player, is it generally clean? Is it subject to overload effects? I'm talking about what the tweaks call "glassing over." Assuming things are right, should I hear overload effects listening at moderately loud levels on vocalists like Patsy Cline, Emmylou Harris or Joni Mitchell? Several people have characterized the nominal high end on the 4412s as "edgy." I like edgy, but not overloaded or distorted. So, how would you characterize the high end on these speakers? Smooth? Edgy? Detailed? Clean? How would you characterize their ability to handle fairly loud female vocals without breaking up? Is 120 watts enough? Assuming the woofer is hungrier for power than the tweeters, I would assume so, because I can play them louder than I can stand with no bass or mid-range distortion. Thanks in advance for your feedback on this.

Wagner
03-13-2010, 12:25 PM
Dave, I couldn't tell you if your tweeters are "OK" without hearing them.

You seem convinced that there is a problem; possibly there is.

If you are hearing "distortion" then something is wrong, but I can't tell you what it is.

Those tweeters can handle any clean power you give them. Edgy might have been the wrong word. Should have used "accurate" to the point of being "analytical". They are VERY revealing of all qualities in the chain, but they have never been dominating over the rest of the drivers in the box with the half a dozen or so pairs I own.

Ever listen to later in his career Elvis Costello, like "All This Useless Beauty" on vinyl? All of his records that I own from around this period are rolled off. Some say he (and Brits) like it that way, and the recordings are engineered that way. I don't know if that's true or not, but it's clear many of them are rolled off on my JBLs with Titanium domed tweeters (and everything else I've heard them on). The notoriously sibilant Dianna Krall is never strident, but if she's bothering me at higher levels, I just dial it back a little and she's very natural. I have a good reference as I've seen her live several times and own a couple of here DVDs as well.

That's the best I can do for you.

Good luck,

Thomas

Wagner
03-13-2010, 12:45 PM
My sources are clean. Through my work, I've had access to multiple re-issues of the work of thousands of popular music artists, so I've been able to audition these and select the very best and most natural-sounding reissues of most of the music in which I have an interest. I tend to play music from the 1950s through the 1970s, and for the sake of discussion, please know that I'm confident I'm listening to the cleanest and best-engineered masterings of most what I listen to.


Most of which, if not all, were engineered using JBLs.

Thomas

rdgrimes
03-13-2010, 12:45 PM
I think we're all shooting in the dark here. If both speakers sound exactly the same then I suppose it could be assumed that they are OK. But it's not hard to find pairs of 035ti on eBay if you want to swap them out. If both of them read the same DCR, swapping them both would be the next step.

Also good to note that these are horizontal near-field designs and will sound different from a distance and especially bad if the room is not right. Early reflections and the like will muddy things up a lot.

It's not impossible that your ear just doesn't like the 035ti, but that would place you in the minority. If that's the case then just try turning them down.

rusty jefferson
03-13-2010, 11:22 PM
Hey Dave,

I feel, and hear your pain. I suspect the issue is not with the speakers, per se, but like me your listening has become more sophisticated.

Now I haven't been around this site long, or have a very big collection, but I am a Loyal JBL owner. My father lugged home a pair in 1970 when I was 10 years old, spent 2 weeks of evenings after work building a Heathkit receiver, and introduced our family to Hi-Fi. With the first bit of money I earned, I bought a pair of 4311b monitors, cause that's what I saw being used at a famous recording studio for mix down [ The mixing engineer could reach out and touch both of those speakers they were so close, and rarely played them loud ]. Then with my first real earnings, a pair of L150-A and a B-380. Some time later, another B-380, 4412s and since finding this site, a pair of L7s and I just built some 2245 subs to replace the B-380s I sold to a friend.

A couple of years ago I started upgrading electronics in hope of curing the same issues your describing, the kind of raw or PA sound that was most noticeable in strong female voices. Joni Mitchell, Eva Cassidy, Ella, New York Voices, etc. Jazz, not a problem. Rock, ya can't beat the JBLs. But for pure singers, I was still frustrated to the point that last year I bought a $700.00 Cambridge cd player/transport and a [ gulp ] $3000.00 outboard DAC to finally cure the problem. Two weeks later, I returned both pieces after doing blindfolded A/B comparisons, and although I could pick out the new rig from the old, they weren't very different.

Well, soon after the cd/dac fiasco I was talking to a audio tweeks/wire guy, who after hearing my plight and a description of my system recommended not buying anything from him, but rather trying an inexpensive speaker he was very fond of, the Axiom M3ti [$330.00 /pair new ]. In one instant, all the frustration was washed away. I can't believe such an inexpensive [ built in Canada no less ] loudspeaker can sound so natural.

My current set-up is the Axioms and the 2245 subs. None of my systems has sounded half as good as this one. Even my recent L7 purchase, which was after the Axioms, [ I wasn't ready to give up on JBL yet ] don't cut it when playing powerful singers. The L7s are harsher in the mid frequencies and uncontrolled [for lack of a better adjective] by comparison.

All my JBLs have redeeming characteristics of course, and I enjoy listening to all of them [I can't seem to part with them yet] from time to time. But I recognize my tastes have changed, and so have times.

Good luck with your project. I would consider a pair of these speakers, before spending an equivalent amount replacing/rebuilding drivers that may be fine, but just not to your liking.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/m3.htm

Wagner
03-14-2010, 10:29 AM
Now that I've calmed down :)

Get your tweeters checked out; if they are mechanically and electrically fine, then sell the JBLs and listen to something else. Writing about it here is a waste of time for all concerned.

Life is too short to listen to speakers you don't care for.

Lots of folks swear by Klipsch and Bose.

Enjoy the Music :bouncy:

Thomas

Again, good luck to you

edgewound
03-14-2010, 10:08 PM
Then there's also the possibility that the good ol' 035TIAs have seen better days and need a refresh.

...and yes...they have been confirmed to be TIAs.

Mr. Widget
03-16-2010, 12:13 PM
Paradigm Titans are super popular too (amongst the "sophisticated", big bang for the buck crowd), Canadian as well. Cheap Vifa tweeters (very smooth and rolled off) coupled with a nice warm bump in the middle. Back in the day, JBL had a hard time competing with "cheap" Audax tweeters. Ultimately Harman put an end to that problem by buying Audax and now many JBLs use Audax tweeters. I don't think you should put down a speaker simply because it uses a "cheap" this or that. JBL's real area of supremacy has always been in their woofers and compression drivers... but not every system needs a multi-thousand dollar 4" voice coiled "tweeter." ;)

Is it possible that Dave's tweeters are working correctly and yet he finds them shrill and or harsh at elevated levels? Sure. All speakers tend to get hard and nasty sounding when pushed to their limits. This can get exacerbated by amps running out of steam if playing back at higher levels with relatively low sensitivity loudspeakers. It is also quite likely that as Edge pointed out, the tweeters are old and they may be tired and need to be rebuilt or retired. That was the original query of this thread after all.

So, why do people feel compelled to snipe at each other every time somebody posts something that doesn't seem to agree with their own personal experiences? There are so many variable at play here we can never really know what is going on in someone else's listening room.


Widget

Mr. Widget
03-16-2010, 12:27 PM
Assuming things are right, should I hear overload effects listening at moderately loud levels on vocalists like Patsy Cline, Emmylou Harris or Joni Mitchell? Several people have characterized the nominal high end on the 4412s as "edgy." I like edgy, but not overloaded or distorted. So, how would you characterize the high end on these speakers? Smooth? Edgy? Detailed? Clean? How would you characterize their ability to handle fairly loud female vocals without breaking up? Is 120 watts enough? Assuming the woofer is hungrier for power than the tweeters, I would assume so, because I can play them louder than I can stand with no bass or mid-range distortion. Thanks in advance for your feedback on this.I wouldn't rule out a lack of amplifier power... the results of clipping show up in the form of ultra high frequency noise that will distort and eventually blow a tweeter. However you did mention that you also hear this effect at lower levels. I think your initial supposition that your tweeters may be worn out is likely.

You said you picked these up from a radio station. Back in college, I worked in a radio station... we abused every piece of gear we could whenever the chief engineer wasn't around. (Sorry Dave)

I doubt the problem is with crossover components, L-pads, or wiring. I think you should repair or replace your tweeters. Tweeters are small, send a PM to edgewound, he runs an authorized JBL repair center. He should be able to help you out.


Widget

Wagner
03-16-2010, 12:57 PM
Back in the day, JBL had a hard time competing with "cheap" Audax tweeters. Ultimately Harman put an end to that problem by buying Audax and now many JBLs use Audax tweeters. I don't think you should put down a speaker simply because it uses a "cheap" this or that. JBL's real area of supremacy has always been in their woofers and compression drivers... but not every system needs a multi-thousand dollar 4" voice coiled "tweeter." ;)

Is it possible that Dave's tweeters are working correctly and yet he finds them shrill and or harsh at elevated levels? Sure. All speakers tend to get hard and nasty sounding when pushed to their limits. This can get exacerbated by amps running out of steam if playing back at higher levels with relatively low sensitivity loudspeakers. It is also quite likely that as Edge pointed out, the tweeters are old and they may be tired and need to be rebuilt or retired. That was the original query of this thread after all.

So, why do people feel compelled to snipe at each other every time somebody posts something that doesn't seem to agree with their own personal experiences? There are so many variable at play here we can never really know what is going on in someone else's listening room.


Widget


I thought I had done a reasonably good job concurring with, and making, all of the points you have just made, with my posts. Guess not.

I got a little pissy when "rusty" jumped in, and with not so subtle inference, started dropping bombs like "sophisticated", and then proceeded to extol the virtues of a $300 pair of boxes hooked up to 10K worth of "custom electronics" and how it solved all of his unhappiness with JBLs.

Axiom Speakers has a forum too.

For the sake of clarity, I'd just like to say I did not "put down" anything. That was not my intent. I believe I asked the rhetorical question "what's not to like?" when I referenced the Paradigm Titan. But I couldn't listen to them for long (and that's MY problem) before they'd start to wear on me; just because something's incredibly popular doesn't make it "good".

The use of the word "cheap" was relative to cost, not whether a person should like the speaker, or not, based on the same.

$300 dollars for a pair of new loudspeakers of any value is "cheap" in today's World, relative to cost. (and with the exception of desk top toys, you know it too :))

Maybe I am too old to be PC conscious and should have used the phrase "cost effective" or "built to a point".

I was not saying the guy's speakers were no good, he in fact was saying mine were.

That's all, I am sorry if I offended anyone.

Thomas

timc
03-16-2010, 12:58 PM
I doubt the problem is with crossover components, L-pads, or wiring. I think you should repair or replace your tweeters. Tweeters are small, send a PM to edgewound, he runs an authorized JBL repair center. He should be able to help you out.


Widget


I also doubt the error is in the crossover, but it is POSSIBLE that a capacitor is leaking. Check them for deformation and puncture.

Wagner
03-16-2010, 01:16 PM
I wouldn't rule out a lack of amplifier power... the results of clipping show up it ultra high frequency noise that will distort and eventually blow a tweeter. However you did mention that you also hear this effect at lower levels. I think your initial supposition that your tweeters may be worn out is likely.

You said you picked these up from a radio station. back in college, i worked in a radio station... we abused every piece of gear we could whenever the chief engineer wasn't around. (Sorry Dave)

I doubt the problem is with crossover components, L-pads, or wiring. I think you should repair or replace your tweeters. Tweeters are small, send a PM to edgewound, he runs an authorized JBL repair center. He should be able to help you out.


Widget


I do confess that I became rather facetious, but only in light of what I perceived, and still believe, to be wholly subjective, snobby post.

Again, sorry if I caused any problems :(
Thomas

Mr. Widget
03-16-2010, 01:52 PM
I do confess that I became rather facetious, but only in light of what I perceived, and still believe...Please stop while you are ahead. the more you write the worse it gets.

FWIW: I didn't see any snobby posts or any other untoward posting before your unfortunate ramblings, but please let's not go on and on about this.


Widget

Wagner
03-16-2010, 02:11 PM
Please stop while you are ahead. the more you write the worse it gets.

FWIW: I didn't see any snobby posts or any other untoward posting before your unfortunate ramblings, but please let's not go on and on about this.


Widget


Sounds fine.

Thomas

BMWCCA
03-16-2010, 04:52 PM
What I found with similar tweeters is that on some music they are irritating. That same music is irritating on my 2405s, too. If you find music that covers the same frequency ranges and doesn't sound "bad" on those same tweeters, I suggest it is poor recordings at the root of the problem. The more "sophisticated" my system becomes the more critical I am of the recordings. If I don't want to hear the trash in the high-end in what passes for recorded music these days, I can play it on less-sensitive tweeters and it's just not as irritating. Might be why a pair of $300-new speakers sound "better" to the listener. In my case the old 044 isn't as sensitive to trashy highs as is the 035Ti, 035TiA, or 052.

Seems to me this is the primary reason someone finally obtaining their holy-grail of speakers immediately searches for better-quality recordings. I know it was the case for me though for some time before getting my 4345s I was blaming my lack of satisfaction with my 030s on what I though must be N2400s past their prime. I cleaned L-pads, replaced CD players, and finally even with the L5s and L7s the irritation in certain recordings was still there. I even bought a pair of Crown VFX2-As to bypass the ancient N2400s, but haven't gotten that far yet. It was the purchase of the 4345s that convinced me there was nothing wrong with the final link in the chain but that it all went back to the source material. I've upgraded my "software" and now the hardware makes me happy. :dont-know

rusty jefferson
03-16-2010, 07:36 PM
What I found with similar tweeters is that on some music they are irritating. That same music is irritating on my 2405s, too. If you find music that covers the same frequency ranges and doesn't sound "bad" on those same tweeters, I suggest it is poor recordings at the root of the problem. The more "sophisticated" my system becomes the more critical I am of the recordings. If I don't want to hear the trash in the high-end in what passes for recorded music these days, I can play it on less-sensitive tweeters and it's just not as irritating. Might be why a pair of $300-new speakers sound "better" to the listener. In my case the old 044 isn't as sensitive to trashy highs as is the 035Ti, 035TiA, or 052.

Seems to me this is the primary reason someone finally obtaining their holy-grail of speakers immediately searches for better-quality recordings. I know it was the case for me though for some time before getting my 4345s I was blaming my lack of satisfaction with my 030s on what I though must be N2400s past their prime. I cleaned L-pads, replaced CD players, and finally even with the L5s and L7s the irritation in certain recordings was still there. I even bought a pair of Crown VFX2-As to bypass the ancient N2400s, but haven't gotten that far yet. It was the purchase of the 4345s that convinced me there was nothing wrong with the final link in the chain but that it all went back to the source material. I've upgraded my "software" and now the hardware makes me happy. :dont-know

I like much of what you are saying here, but because of my experience, I'm not sure about the source material being the culprit. As I've been upgrading electronics, aspects of the system definitely improved. The sound stage gained depth and height, Increased detail, etc. but I continued to have the harshness particularly in womens voices. On long sustained notes, it's as though there was a unsteadyness or quivering that wasn't actually on the record. When I changed speakers, issue gone. Smoother, very clean vocals.

I don't know much about the frequency range, but aren't womens singing voices mostly in the midrange and just crossing into the high frequency. 3-4khz

I hope Dave is still following his thread. I'd like to know what happens with his system.

edgewound
03-16-2010, 07:46 PM
I like much of what you are saying here, but because of my experience, I'm not sure about the source material being the culprit. As I've been upgrading electronics, aspects of the system definitely improved. The sound stage gained depth and height, Increased detail, etc. but I continued to have the harshness particularly in womens voices. On long sustained notes, it's as though there was a unsteadyness or quivering that wasn't actually on the record. When I changed speakers, issue gone. Smoother, very clean vocals.

I don't know much about the frequency range, but aren't womens singing voices mostly in the midrange and just crossing into the high frequency. 3-4khz

I hope Dave is still following his thread. I'd like to know what happens with his system.

A recording's quality is only as good as the speakers will let it reveal.

Mediocre speakers will let a bad recording sound not as bad.

Very revealing speakers will reveal every flaw without mercy.

That said...Control room monitors that are 20+ years old with a foam pad underneath the dome and possible debonding of the voice coil former from the dome can sound scratchy/buzzy at any volume level.

There's only one way to find out.

Mr. Widget
03-16-2010, 09:22 PM
I like much of what you are saying here, but because of my experience, I'm not sure about the source material being the culprit. As I've been upgrading electronics, aspects of the system definitely improved. The sound stage gained depth and height, Increased detail, etc. but I continued to have the harshness particularly in womens voices. On long sustained notes, it's as though there was a unsteadyness or quivering that wasn't actually on the record. When I changed speakers, issue gone. Smoother, very clean vocals.I can believe that. To clarify this, all of your JBLs were vintage or at least second hand and the speakers that eliminated the problem were new, right?

A number of years ago when I bought my CLIO rig and started measuring loudspeakers and drivers I discovered what a wide range in performance there was with secondhand gear. Sometimes vintage or secondhand gear is perfect, but usually not quite so. If you think about it, it is pretty obvious... loudspeaker drivers are small mechanical systems that require a high degree of precision to operate properly. All of the materials tend to change with age, some more than others.


Widget

rusty jefferson
03-17-2010, 05:37 AM
A recording's quality is only as good as the speakers will let it reveal.

Mediocre speakers will let a bad recording sound not as bad.

Very revealing speakers will reveal every flaw without mercy.

That said...Control room monitors that are 20+ years old with a foam pad underneath the dome and possible debonding of the voice coil former from the dome can sound scratchy/buzzy at any volume level.

There's only one way to find out.

I appreciate what you are saying here and it makes sense.

I live close to a JBL tech [OLDMICS-a member] and discussed this problem with him maybe a year ago. I seem to recall him saying he probably wouldn't be able to inspect these tweeters without damage that would require a rebuild/replacement, but I can't remember now. Can you confirm? I also think he was dubious about the crossover rebuild. That was my original question to him about this issue. I did neither.


I can believe that. To clarify this, all of your JBLs were vintage or at least second hand and the speakers that eliminated the problem were new, right?

A number of years ago when I bought my CLIO rig and started measuring loudspeakers and drivers I discovered what a wide range in performance there was with secondhand gear. Sometimes vintage or secondhand gear is perfect, but usually not quite so. If you think about it, it is pretty obvious... loudspeaker drivers are small mechanical systems that require a high degree of precision to operate properly. All of the materials tend to change with age, some more than others.


Widget

I purchased the L-150As new. The 4412s came from a friends home were they were almost never used. I've known them since new.The L7s I recently purchased used and are showing visual signs of a rough life, but probably display the least amount of the harshness.

Mr. Widget
03-17-2010, 07:51 AM
I purchased the L-150As new. The 4412s came from a friends home were they were almost never used. I've known them since new.The L7s I recently purchased used and are showing visual signs of a rough life, but probably display the least amount of the harshness.Ok, sounds like my theory of your picking up some damaged goods doesn't hold water...

I suppose there is just something about mid priced JBLs that you don't like. I've never owned any of these three models or even ever heard any of the later day "L" series. My time spent with the L150As and 4412s would only be brief store visits so I really can't say if I'd agree with your assessment or not, but I guess it is a good thing you found an affordable alternative.

That said, your own experience aside, thousands of others (professionals and enthusiasts alike) have enjoyed 4412s so I'd suggest Mr. Dunbar look into having his tweeters tested, repaired, or replaced.


Widget

Wagner
03-17-2010, 08:35 AM
A recording's quality is only as good as the speakers will let it reveal.

Mediocre speakers will let a bad recording sound not as bad.

Very revealing speakers will reveal every flaw without mercy.

That said...Control room monitors that are 20+ years old with a foam pad underneath the dome and possible debonding of the voice coil former from the dome can sound scratchy/buzzy at any volume level.

There's only one way to find out.


Any readily available material suitable for refreshing those pieces of foam on an otherwise sound diaphragm?
I always remove the screens and covers on new acquisitions to gently clean (blow away) away the little bits of debris and metallic crud that accumulates due to the magnet. 044s really seem to attract a lot of little crap.
But I don't disturb the diaphragms to clean the gaps on working units because I don't have/know what to put back there if the foam were shot/crumbly.
Do you have a suggestion short of a new diaphragm kit?

Thanks,
Thomas

jblnut
03-17-2010, 08:58 AM
I think you need to try a different amp or two before throwing in the towel on the 4412. I've been down this road several times over the years and I finally found nirvana by pairing some classic tube power (Dynaco) with the titanium JBL tweeter. It seems that the almost unlimited high-end of these tweeters is ruthlessly revealing. A lot of solid state amps just sound too bright and edgy - especially when the volume goes up - on certain material. Chaning to tube power totally changed that on my system.

Give the glass bottles a try....

jblnut

Wagner
03-17-2010, 09:04 AM
I think you need to try a different amp or two before throwing in the towel on the 4412. I've been down this road several times over the years and I finally found nirvana by pairing some classic tube power (Dynaco) with the titanium JBL tweeter. It seems that the almost unlimited high-end of these tweeters is ruthlessly revealing. A lot of solid state amps just sound too bright and edgy - especially when the volume goes up - on certain material. Chaning to tube power totally changed that on my system.

Give the glass bottles a try....

jblnut


+1

Thomas

edgewound
03-17-2010, 12:21 PM
Any readily available material suitable for refreshing those pieces of foam on an otherwise sound diaphragm?
I always remove the screens and covers on new acquisitions to gently clean (blow away) away the little bits of debris and metallic crud that accumulates due to the magnet. 044s really seem to attract a lot of little crap.
But I don't disturb the diaphragms to clean the gaps on working units because I don't have/know what to put back there if the foam were shot/crumbly.
Do you have a suggestion short of a new diaphragm kit?

Thanks,
Thomas

Sweep, disassemble, inspect, clean, replace dampening pad with suitable material, reassemble, sweep again, reinstall.

Dave Dunbar
03-17-2010, 12:42 PM
Yep, still following the thread, and weighing all of the information. I appreciate everyone's feedback. I will make the investment to fix the 4412s, once I have determined for sure exactly what is wrong. In an ideal world, I would take them to an experienced shop within a day's drive of Cincinnati to get an expert's read on just what's going on. I suspect the tweeters, but also want to be sure my crossover is good. And, as has been pointed out, a portion of the offending female vocal passages I've noted falls in the domain of the mid driver. Working against me is the fact that I got them from a radio station, which probably fed them with an underpowered amp and which probably had jocks who turned them up to obnoxious levels for sustained periods. I'm sure that didn't help them. On the other hand, on most material, the sound is simply great. Bass is very tight and full, the mids are sweet and detailed. Most highs are fairly nice, if a bit edgy. As I've noted, I actually like a highly-detailed top end. So I'm hoping that they're not totally trashed and in need of crossover repairs or new or repaired mids in addition to the tweeters. If everything's wrong, I'll be in for over $500 for this rescue mission. If it's of any interest, my main amp is a Yamaha CR-2020 receiver (vintage 1977, in flawless shape, and upgraded by Myer-Emco in Wasington with beefier output transistors in 1987, measured at 116w a side at 0.1% distortion) and a top-of-the-line Onkyo CD player produced in 1989 (a super-clean unit, by the way). I also have a Kenwood 7050 receiver (1980, 80 w per side) which sounds particularly nice with the 4412s. My 4412s sit on 4' stands approximately 6' in front of my listening position. I also have a pair of L-110s on my hearth across the room (14' away) which I play at lower level with a different amp and a different EQ curve designed to emphasize intruments one would normally hear at the rear of the sound stage. Works quite well, with the L-110s padded way down so as not to overwhelm the 4412s (this trick requires a fair amount of bass roll-off on the L-110 feed, as they tend to have prodigious bass output). The room is a dedicated sound room with appropriate wall hangings to tame standing waves. At this point, with the exception of what I think is some high end overload that shouldn't be there, I've got a fantastic set-up for the mostly-vintage stuff I listen mostly listen to. Sinatra's right in the room. So are Stan Getz and Dave Brubeck. The Doors, Bert Kaempfert, the Nashville Sound, Elvis...you name it - 95% of it sounds like it was recorded yesterday. Now if I can just tame that high end overload on female vocals, I will have acheived sonic perfection...or as close as I'll come to it.

jblnut
03-17-2010, 01:27 PM
Thanks - it makes a lot of sense now. I'm remembering my own JBL journey and you've brought a lot of it back to me.

Asssuming the 4412's are in good working order, you may be experiencing the 4412 shining a microscope (so to speak) into your electronics. It may be the pairing of vintage solid-state Yamaha power with the 4412 is producing the grain/glare/edge you hear. I'd also be a bit suspect of that 1989 CD player. AD/DA circuits have come a *long* way since then and perhaps what you're hearing stems from the CD.

I was using Yamaha power too at one point (I still use it for the low-end of my 250's but no longer the highs) and I ended up going with tubes for exactly the same reasons you are describing.

That's the downside (if it's really a downside) to getting a really good pair of JBLs. You may end up re-thinking most of your other components as you begin to hear things that previous speakers did not reveal. It's all got to add up - speakers + electronincs + room + source material - and that's a lot of variables :).

jblnut

Wagner
03-17-2010, 01:51 PM
Sweep, disassemble, inspect, clean, replace dampening pad with suitable material, reassemble, sweep again, reinstall.

Thank you!

"Suitable" material, that is the essence of my question.
Other than that which is provided in a new diaphragm kit, what do you suggest that is appropriate? Is there any "over the counter" solution?

Thank you again,
Thomas

Wagner
03-17-2010, 01:58 PM
Yep, still following the thread, and weighing all of the information. I appreciate everyone's feedback. I will make the investment to fix the 4412s, once I have determined for sure exactly what is wrong. In an ideal world, I would take them to an experienced shop within a day's drive of Cincinnati to get an expert's read on just what's going on. I suspect the tweeters, but also want to be sure my crossover is good. And, as has been pointed out, a portion of the offending female vocal passages I've noted falls in the domain of the mid driver. Working against me is the fact that I got them from a radio station, which probably fed them with an underpowered amp and which probably had jocks who turned them up to obnoxious levels for sustained periods. I'm sure that didn't help them. On the other hand, on most material, the sound is simply great. Bass is very tight and full, the mids are sweet and detailed. Most highs are fairly nice, if a bit edgy. As I've noted, I actually like a highly-detailed top end. So I'm hoping that they're not totally trashed and in need of crossover repairs or new or repaired mids in addition to the tweeters. If everything's wrong, I'll be in for over $500 for this rescue mission. If it's of any interest, my main amp is a Yamaha CR-2020 receiver (vintage 1977, in flawless shape, and upgraded by Myer-Emco in Wasington with beefier output transistors in 1987, measured at 116w a side at 0.1% distortion) and a top-of-the-line Onkyo CD player produced in 1989 (a super-clean unit, by the way). I also have a Kenwood 7050 receiver (1980, 80 w per side) which sounds particularly nice with the 4412s. My 4412s sit on 4' stands approximately 6' in front of my listening position. I also have a pair of L-110s on my hearth across the room (14' away) which I play at lower level with a different amp and a different EQ curve designed to emphasize intruments one would normally hear at the rear of the sound stage. Works quite well, with the L-110s padded way down so as not to overwhelm the 4412s (this trick requires a fair amount of bass roll-off on the L-110 feed, as they tend to have prodigious bass output). The room is a dedicated sound room with appropriate wall hangings to tame standing waves. At this point, with the exception of what I think is some high end overload that shouldn't be there, I've got a fantastic set-up for the mostly-vintage stuff I listen mostly listen to. Sinatra's right in the room. So are Stan Getz and Dave Brubeck. The Doors, Bert Kaempfert, the Nashville Sound, Elvis...you name it - 95% of it sounds like it was recorded yesterday. Now if I can just tame that high end overload on female vocals, I will have acheived sonic perfection...or as close as I'll come to it.


"I have learned through the experience of ownership that JBL tweeters can be RUTHLESSLY revealing, of both source and material." *

Good luck to you,

Thomas

* (post #8)

Wagner
03-17-2010, 02:24 PM
Yep, still following the thread, and weighing all of the information. I appreciate everyone's feedback. I will make the investment to fix the 4412s, once I have determined for sure exactly what is wrong. In an ideal world, I would take them to an experienced shop within a day's drive of Cincinnati to get an expert's read on just what's going on. I suspect the tweeters, but also want to be sure my crossover is good. And, as has been pointed out, a portion of the offending female vocal passages I've noted falls in the domain of the mid driver. Working against me is the fact that I got them from a radio station, which probably fed them with an underpowered amp and which probably had jocks who turned them up to obnoxious levels for sustained periods. I'm sure that didn't help them. On the other hand, on most material, the sound is simply great. Bass is very tight and full, the mids are sweet and detailed. Most highs are fairly nice, if a bit edgy. As I've noted, I actually like a highly-detailed top end. So I'm hoping that they're not totally trashed and in need of crossover repairs or new or repaired mids in addition to the tweeters. If everything's wrong, I'll be in for over $500 for this rescue mission. If it's of any interest, my main amp is a Yamaha CR-2020 receiver (vintage 1977, in flawless shape, and upgraded by Myer-Emco in Wasington with beefier output transistors in 1987, measured at 116w a side at 0.1% distortion) and a top-of-the-line Onkyo CD player produced in 1989 (a super-clean unit, by the way). I also have a Kenwood 7050 receiver (1980, 80 w per side) which sounds particularly nice with the 4412s. My 4412s sit on 4' stands approximately 6' in front of my listening position. I also have a pair of L-110s on my hearth across the room (14' away) which I play at lower level with a different amp and a different EQ curve designed to emphasize intruments one would normally hear at the rear of the sound stage. Works quite well, with the L-110s padded way down so as not to overwhelm the 4412s (this trick requires a fair amount of bass roll-off on the L-110 feed, as they tend to have prodigious bass output). The room is a dedicated sound room with appropriate wall hangings to tame standing waves. At this point, with the exception of what I think is some high end overload that shouldn't be there, I've got a fantastic set-up for the mostly-vintage stuff I listen mostly listen to. Sinatra's right in the room. So are Stan Getz and Dave Brubeck. The Doors, Bert Kaempfert, the Nashville Sound, Elvis...you name it - 95% of it sounds like it was recorded yesterday. Now if I can just tame that high end overload on female vocals, I will have acheived sonic perfection...or as close as I'll come to it.


You should check for DC on your speaker taps. Anything over 50mV or so and you may have found your problem.
This was a TOTL receiver, but it's still more than 30 years old.
I don't have a schematic handy and don't know if Yamaha had a pot for adjusting offset or if they used differential pairs like Kenwood.
I'll bet a dollar the DC on your outputs is over 50mV. (presuming you haven't had it re-capped and the power boards adjusted)

Thomas

Mr. Widget
03-17-2010, 02:34 PM
Asssuming the 4412's are in good working order, you may be experiencing the 4412 shining a microscope (so to speak) into your electronics. It may be the pairing of vintage solid-state Yamaha power with the 4412 is producing the grain/glare/edge you hear. I'd also be a bit suspect of that 1989 CD player. AD/DA circuits have come a *long* way since then and perhaps what you're hearing stems from the CD.I agree 100% however...


My serious dissatisfaction of late came when I had a chance to audition a new set of Acoutic Energy speakers, which have a VERY forward characteristic like the JBLs, but with none of the high end harshness/overload I'm hearing on my 4412s.Were these speakers in your usual listening room with the same electronics?


Widget

Wagner
03-17-2010, 02:38 PM
Yep, still following the thread, and weighing all of the information. I appreciate everyone's feedback. I will make the investment to fix the 4412s, once I have determined for sure exactly what is wrong. In an ideal world, I would take them to an experienced shop within a day's drive of Cincinnati to get an expert's read on just what's going on. I suspect the tweeters, but also want to be sure my crossover is good. And, as has been pointed out, a portion of the offending female vocal passages I've noted falls in the domain of the mid driver. Working against me is the fact that I got them from a radio station, which probably fed them with an underpowered amp and which probably had jocks who turned them up to obnoxious levels for sustained periods. I'm sure that didn't help them. On the other hand, on most material, the sound is simply great. Bass is very tight and full, the mids are sweet and detailed. Most highs are fairly nice, if a bit edgy. As I've noted, I actually like a highly-detailed top end. So I'm hoping that they're not totally trashed and in need of crossover repairs or new or repaired mids in addition to the tweeters. If everything's wrong, I'll be in for over $500 for this rescue mission. If it's of any interest, my main amp is a Yamaha CR-2020 receiver (vintage 1977, in flawless shape, and upgraded by Myer-Emco in Wasington with beefier output transistors in 1987, measured at 116w a side at 0.1% distortion) and a top-of-the-line Onkyo CD player produced in 1989 (a super-clean unit, by the way). I also have a Kenwood 7050 receiver (1980, 80 w per side) which sounds particularly nice with the 4412s. My 4412s sit on 4' stands approximately 6' in front of my listening position. I also have a pair of L-110s on my hearth across the room (14' away) which I play at lower level with a different amp and a different EQ curve designed to emphasize intruments one would normally hear at the rear of the sound stage. Works quite well, with the L-110s padded way down so as not to overwhelm the 4412s (this trick requires a fair amount of bass roll-off on the L-110 feed, as they tend to have prodigious bass output). The room is a dedicated sound room with appropriate wall hangings to tame standing waves. At this point, with the exception of what I think is some high end overload that shouldn't be there, I've got a fantastic set-up for the mostly-vintage stuff I listen mostly listen to. Sinatra's right in the room. So are Stan Getz and Dave Brubeck. The Doors, Bert Kaempfert, the Nashville Sound, Elvis...you name it - 95% of it sounds like it was recorded yesterday. Now if I can just tame that high end overload on female vocals, I will have acheived sonic perfection...or as close as I'll come to it.


I would also suggest with a CD player of this vintage that you lift the muting transistors and replace the output blocking caps (easy, and only costs a few bucks) at minimum. Use film a type, although a good audio grade bi-polar electrolytic will work but they're harder to find.
Players from this time are not known for being very "smooth".

Thomas

jim3860
03-17-2010, 03:44 PM
Dave this is my oppinion after having owned several JBL's with the 035ti and 035ti-a tweeter they are shrill as hell to my ears and there isnt a lot you can do IMHO to change that if your ears are able to hear into the upper frequencies then most likely you will suffer listening fatigue after a few hours or even less. If you use a tube pre amp or amp and even a tube buffer throw in some warm or dark sounding IC's and you could take the edge off and they may well be fine then.


I am not sure if you would be able to find a silk dome or paper drop in, I kinda doubt it perhaps you could even get a seperate tweeter that sits atop the 4312 to use not sure. Or you could simply sell them and get JBL's that uses a paper tweeter or something similar if you like the sound of the bass and midrange of your JBL's.

The good thing is JBL made all different kinds of speakers for all different types of listening prefernces and you should be able to find what you like with a little listening and research.

REGARDS JIM

JBL 4645
10-20-2010, 12:34 PM
Do those tweets (035Ti-something-or-other-?) have a foam under the dome that's turned to goo ?
Just a WAG

Sounds like Ferrofluid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrofluid

Ferrofluids are commonly used in loudspeakers to remove heat from the voice coil, and to passively damp the movement of the cone. They reside in what would normally be the air gap around the voice coil, held in place by the speaker's magnet. Since ferrofluids are paramagnetic, they obey Curie's law, thus become less magnetic at higher temperatures. A strong magnet placed near the voice coil (which produces heat) will attract cold ferrofluid more than hot ferrofluid thus forcing the heated ferrofluid away from the electric voice coil and toward a heat sink. This is an efficient cooling method which requires no additional energy input.[6]

JeffW
10-20-2010, 12:49 PM
Foam under the tweeter dome doesn't sound at all like ferrofluid to me.

Sounds like foam. Looks like foam, too.

BJL
10-20-2010, 12:50 PM
When I wrote my earlier comment I meant this foam (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?29325-044Ti-questions-Help-needed&p=294632&viewfull=1#post294632) which might get sticky when it deteriorates.

-Mallwalker

JBL 4645
10-20-2010, 01:30 PM
JeffW

Oh, yes, yes I do remember now looking at tweeter a different soft dome cloth tweeter years ago and noticed a little price of foam glued to the magnet, so, foam rot? Could I be the glue that eats away at the foam as I know some glues would so this. Or, just simple air getting to the foam?

BJL

I’ve noticed a slight oily like smell on one of tweeters. Its working fine just noticed the smell.

So I take the foam is placed there in case little fingers push the dome in! LOL like we haven’t already seen that.
So what is the service life for the foam behind the dome tweeters, how many years, does it last for?

grumpy
10-20-2010, 04:58 PM
There are a few threads here on the 044 family, and replacing the foam,
should it seem warranted. The one in post #44 (oddly enough) was due for it.

Seems like Seawolf may have done this or looked into it recently.

pathfindermwd
10-25-2010, 07:59 PM
I recently acquired a pair of 4412s from a radio station. I've had the woofer surrounds redone. Everything else seems fine (really fine!) except for a shrillness in high-level voices, especially female voices. Even Steve Hoffman's great Joni Mitchell remasterings overload a bit. I've tried them with a number of decent amps, pre-amps and CD players. The harshness in vocals at high volume changes depending on the characteristics of the gear I'm feeding them, but never completely goes away. I don't notice this harshness in friends' high end systems. This characteristic doesn't seem right for speakers this good, but I suspect an issue with the tweeters. I'm listening at a distance of about 8'in a room 17' x 21', at moderately high, but certainly not super-loud, levels. How does one determine if the tweeters are in good shape or if they need repair/replacement?

Dave I just wanted to throw in an experience I had with my L100's which use the 035 tweeter. My friend sold them to me because they sounded terrible, and I needed the woofers. One day while I was exchanging crossovers I noticed that the positive wire (spade) was not going to where the tweeter mark said was positive. For like a whole minute I was completely stumped until I checked the tweeters on my L100t's and realized that someone had actually changed the spades around on the tweeter itself! I mention this because your description of shrill and unbalanced treble reminds me alot of what the "s" sounded like until we figured this out. Why someone would do this and keep it like that is beyond me, though vocals were very good on the odd song. So check to make sure all the drivers are wired properly to their proper positive and negative.