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wolfshead
02-15-2010, 09:52 AM
The advent of the transistor enable U.S. manufactures to reduce cost in amplification. High power -low cost. The move from valves to transistors had little to do with sonic improvement. It was as they say all about money.

Most speaker design in the United States since 1970 has been built around more exotic driver materials and inexpensive transistors. Thus the vast majority of speakers on the market are multi-driver affairs with complex power eating crossovers. Too many modern speakers are Hifi-ish and
artifical .

The JBL line from the Paragon to the much desired Hartsfields rarely service. Were among the best sounding loudspeakers produced.
My AR'S are an early example of the move away from large music producing speakers to small one's with very little high end but an exceptable low end.

Today audio is only a supporter to video. The iPOD has replaced the CD.
Another move that makes economic sense , but only adds to the exceptability of low quality sound.

Music has paid a major part in the poor quality of today's music, pop music
for example rarely uses an orchestra. The center of most homes today is the entertainment center with the focus on video. The speakers and amplification takes a back seat.

We may wait around and hope but the days of the great music producing systems made in America is over , as are the great movies from Hollywood.

Mr. Widget
02-15-2010, 10:32 AM
We may wait around and hope but the days of the great music producing systems made in America is over , as are the great movies from Hollywood.With the exception of your comments on video being the driving force in today's home entertainment economy I tend to disagree with most of your observations though I understand how you could come to these conclusions. I think Seawolf in sheep's clothing got most of it right.

Today's Hartsfield is the JBL Everest II see a pic below. I think you would be amazed at what it can do. There are literally dozens of American made, and other makes of high quality electronics that will make a pair of these speakers sing like you couldn't imagine, though you will have to spend a small fortune to get this system, an audiophile in the golden era of Hi-Fi had to spend a relative fortune on a McIntosh powered pair of Hartsfields back in the day.

speakerdave
02-15-2010, 11:02 AM
The acceptance of the small acoustic suspension speaker was mated to the development of stereo with its demands on space and placement. They needed far more power. The revival of interest in the more efficient older speakers, and the development of new high-efficiency speakers is part of the revival of interest in tube amps, especially small ones, as well as the realization that because of power compression very few inefficient speakers can reproduce the dynamism available in the big amps.

scott fitlin
02-15-2010, 11:15 AM
I used to think like you Wolf. What happened to all the good speakers, the good music, the good, the good, the GONE!

However, music, speakers, and technology have changed drastically. And right now, the technology AND the music are getting GOOD!

Some times OUR reluctance to acceptance.....

hjames
02-15-2010, 11:30 AM
I used to think like you Wolf. What happened to all the good speakers, the good music, the good, the good, the GONE!

However, music, speakers, and technology have changed drastically. And right now, the technology AND the music are getting GOOD!

Some times OUR reluctance to acceptance.....
Or sometimes we fail to realize that what we hold as regular is far beyond the grasp of the "somewhat above average" breadwinner ..

I mean really, a high end mac system with a pair of Everest II is hardly within the budget of the regular discerning listener.
Its really a "bespoke" sound system, don't you think?

And frankly, you can do Good sound with a heck of a lot less than $70+k, don't you think?
Or did I misremember the Everest II as being a $60k pair of speakers?

scott fitlin
02-15-2010, 11:41 AM
Or sometimes we fail to realize that what we hold as regular is far beyond the grasp of the "somewhat above average" breadwinner ..

I mean really, a high end mac system with a pair of Everest II is hardly within the budget of the regular discerning listener.
Its really a "bespoke" sound system, don't you think?

And frankly, you can do Good sound with a heck of a lot less than $70+k, don't you think?
Or did I misremember the Everest II as being a $60k pair of speakers?I do not think, one has to spend 70 grand on speakers to achieve great sound in their home. But, yes it does cost some money, and yes, I agree it is sometimes above the budget of the average consumer.

OTOH this very thing has also been taking place since time and memorial. Just as we have legendary products of the past, so too, do we have LEGENDARY garbage of the past! Anyone remember those ALL IN ONE BSR systems? The turntable was built right into the receiver, the speakers had an 8in or 6in full range driver made by I have no idea, and the cabinets were made of the cheapest flake board. People bought these too!

We do the same today as we did then! It goes BOTH ways!


:D

speakerdave
02-15-2010, 11:53 AM
There are many, many dimensions to the problem, but in the end, the fact is people lack discernment, and they spend too much money on crap.

hjames
02-15-2010, 12:30 PM
Its a long way between the Hartsfields of, say $12k in 2009 dollars, and $62k speakers.

But, yes, I agree with speakerdave - too many folks are willing to buy crap, so what incentive is there to provide quality when the mainstream doesn't notice it, or sets "lowes price" as their main concern ...

Same tired old path we run down every time this discussion arises - next will be the off shore discussion, followed by poli-tics, then the thread will go down in flames ...

Been there, done that, got the flame war scars to prove it ...

carry on!

scott fitlin
02-15-2010, 12:42 PM
Its a long way between the Hartsfields of, say $12k in 2009 dollars, and $62k speakers.

But, yes, I agree with speakerdave - too many folks are willing to buy crap, so what incentive is there to provide quality when the mainstream doesn't notice it, or sets "lowes price" as their main concern ...

Same tired old path we run down every time this discussion arises - next will be the off shore discussion, followed by poli-tics, then the thread will go down in flames ...

Been there, done that, got the flame war scars to prove it ...

carry on, men!:rotfl:

wolfshead
02-15-2010, 01:00 PM
With the exception of your comments on video being the driving force in today's home entertainment economy I tend to disagree with most of your observations though I understand how you could come to these conclusions. I think Seawolf in sheep's clothing got most of it right.

Today's Hartsfield is the JBL Everest II see a pic below. I think you would be amazed at what it can do. There are literally dozens of American made, and other makes of high quality electronics that will make a pair of these speakers sing like you couldn't imagine, though you will have to spend a small fortune to get this system, an audiophile in the golden era of Hi-Fi had to spend a relative fortune on a McIntosh powered pair of Hartsfields back in the day.
The audiophile is not the masses. There were excellent speakers made by JBL that was much less expensive. Speaker cabinets such as C35 ,36, 37 and C38 bass reflex cabinets. There also was rear loaded corner consoles, C34 , C43 & C55. These cabinet consoles could except a variety of speaker combinations.

The D130 , D131 , and D 123 were beginner speaker systems which could be upgraded. One could build their own cabinet or buy a kit.
There were many amp manufactures and kit manufactures with amps and
recievers ranging from $100.00 , to over $300.00, A Marantz 7C preamp sold for $274.00. Considered by many the finest tube preamp made.
The Mac C22 preamp was a close second $289.00.

I would not rate your speaker system with Hartsfields , Concert Grands ,
Imperials , Patricians , GRF etc,etc. It is not to say that your speaker system is not excellent.
Example what popular singer today compares with Frank Sinatra ? or dancer with Fred Astaire ?
Excellence can be had today but at a very high price. A Rolex Dayjust in 1963 sold for $150.00 today $6500.00.

speakerdave
02-15-2010, 01:07 PM
I've found that price comparisons via inflation calculators, for TOTL items reflect a big increase in discretionary money in the upper levels of the economy. But what's the news in that? That the trend of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer has been going on for decades has been no secret. You can't blame JBL or any other company for targeting that market.

The asking price for a JBL 1500Al woofer (used in the K2 S9900) today is $1850, $261 in 1962 dollars. JBL'S most expensive woofer at that time was less than half that, but it's really not a legitimate comparison because the 1500Al is very much more complex, was created out of a tremendous investment of engineering, and is difficult to manufacture, but most important, is an order of magnitude better! It is a new kind of product intended for a new market with its own demands.

If you compare products at various competitive, consumer-level price points, I think you will find that present products are in keeping with inflation calculators or are a little cheaper.

speakerdave
02-15-2010, 02:21 PM
. . . . A Marantz 7C preamp sold for $274.00. Considered by many the finest tube preamp made.
. . . .

I think you've bought into some collector frenzy here. I owned one once. If modified it came close to the Audio Research SP3a-1, now available for about half what the 7c draws. I've also owned two more tube preamps, the Audio Research SP8 and the Conrad Johnson PV9, which are better, and can be bought now for about one-third of what the 7c draws. You will note that these are not the most expensive preamps those companies have offered; far from it.

I have to say, you are really all over the place with your posts.

Titanium Dome
02-15-2010, 03:12 PM
I think it's great that folks like the old stuff, and it's super that some of it still works well. It's also nice that occasionally someone finds a really well-presevered specimen that elicits oohs and aahs from admirers. I ooh! and aah! myself. In some cases someone can spend a few hundred $$ to a few thousand $$ and restore these vintage pieces to original glory status.

For me, once the love-fest-of-the-past is over, it's all just old stuff that's been superseded by better stuff.

Like heather writes, this is old ground we're covering, but for the sake of any who might not know how I feel ( :D :p :applaud: ) let me drop my load on the ground one more time:

NOT interested in underperforming, overhyped antiques.

Thanks everyone for stopping by. :wave:

hjames
02-15-2010, 03:40 PM
I think it's great that folks like the old stuff, and it's super that some of it still works well. It's also nice that occasionally someone finds a really well-presevered specimen that elicits oohs and aahs from admirers. I ooh! and aah! myself. In some cases someone can spend a few hundred $$ to a few thousand $$ and restore these vintage pieces to original glory status.

For me, once the love-fest-of-the-past is over, it's all just old stuff that's been superseded by better stuff.

Like heather writes, this is old ground we're covering, but for the sake of any who might not know how I feel ( :D :p :applaud: ) let me drop my load on the ground one more time:

NOT interested in underperforming, overhyped antiques.

Thanks everyone for stopping by. :wave:

'course its not ALL better stuff, there is a lot of chaff that's passed through the doors of Circuit City and Best Buy ...

Barrier to entry is about $3k for a pair of great speakers,
and depending on what you want, will be much higher for a fully integrated Amp/processor/speakers system for home theatre.

Yep, you get what you pay for, IF you are a careful shopper!

scott fitlin
02-15-2010, 04:07 PM
Yep, you get what you pay for, IF you are a careful shopper!That and also being an EDUCATED shopper. :yes:

wolfshead
02-15-2010, 04:08 PM
I've found that price comparisons via inflation calculators, for TOTL items reflect a big increase in discretionary money in the upper levels of the economy. But what's the news in that? That the trend of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer has been going on for decades has been no secret. You can't blame JBL or any other company for targeting that market.

The asking price for a JBL 1500Al woofer (used in the K2 S9900) today is $1850, $261 in 1962 dollars. JBL'S most expensive woofer at that time was less than half that, but it's really not a legitimate comparison because the 1500Al is very much more complex, was created out of a tremendous investment of engineering, and is difficult to manufacture, but most important, is an order of magnitude better! It is a new kind of product intended for a new market with its own demands.

If you compare products at various competitive, consumer-level price points, I think you will find that present products are in keeping with inflation calculators or are a little cheaper.
I Would disagree with you as for as values vs prices. A Rolex watch today
is much more over priced than one available 40 years ago. $450.00 vs $6500. In 1962 JBL's most expensive woofer the 150-4C sold for $114.00

There actually is more discretionary income today especially with a larger middleclass. There is no blame , it is just that companies such as JBL were
sold and the new owners were not that interested in audio but in the bottom line.
I remember talking to Saul Marantz at one of his visits to St.Louis , The new Marantz 10B was being presented. Mr. Marantz said it cost more to
manufacture the 10B than what we were paying for it.

The list of pioneers in audio of those that sold out or closed because of cheap transistor and the change in musical taste as well as lower expectations is endless. Marantz , Jenson , Electro Voice , Ampex, Crown ,
Fisher , Scott, Bogen , Pilot , Garrad , Empire , Rek-O Kut etc,etc.

Frank Sinatra said in the musical " That's Entertainment " You can wait around and hope but you will never see that again "

speakerdave
02-15-2010, 04:18 PM
I don't see what relevance Rolex watches have to any discussion here. They are nothing but power jewelry, and you can get a time piece just as accurate for $25.

In audio there are improvements in performance at the higher price points. Yes, there is some conspicuous consumption going on as well, but there are definite tiers of music reproduction quality.

I'm having difficulty finding the focus of your posts.

I also think you missed the main point of mine that you quoted.


I Would disagree with you as for as values vs prices. A Rolex watch today
is much more over priced than one available 40 years ago. $450.00 vs $6500. In 1962 JBL's most expensive woofer the 150-4C sold for $114.00

There actually is more discretionary income today especially with a larger middleclass. There is no blame , it is just that companies such as JBL were
sold and the new owners were not that interested in audio but in the bottom line.
I remember talking to Saul Marantz at one of his visits to St.Louis , The new Marantz 10B was being presented. Mr. Marantz said it cost more to
manufacture the 10B than what we were paying for it.

The list of pioneers in audio of those that sold out or closed because of cheap transistor and the change in musical taste as well as lower expectations is endless. Marantz , Jenson , Electro Voice , Ampex, Crown ,
Fisher , Scott, Bogen , Pilot , Garrad , Empire , Rek-O Kut etc,etc.

Frank Sinatra said in the musical " That's Entertainment " You can wait around and hope but you will never see that again "

scott fitlin
02-15-2010, 04:28 PM
I Would disagree with you as for as values vs prices. A Rolex watch today
is much more over priced than one available 40 years ago. $450.00 vs $6500. In 1962 JBL's most expensive woofer the 150-4C sold for $114.00

There actually is more discretionary income today especially with a larger middleclass. There is no blame , it is just that companies such as JBL were
sold and the new owners were not that interested in audio but in the bottom line.
I remember talking to Saul Marantz at one of his visits to St.Louis , The new Marantz 10B was being presented. Mr. Marantz said it cost more to
manufacture the 10B than what we were paying for it.

The list of pioneers in audio of those that sold out or closed because of cheap transistor and the change in musical taste as well as lower expectations is endless. Marantz , Jenson , Electro Voice , Ampex, Crown ,
Fisher , Scott, Bogen , Pilot , Garrad , Empire , Rek-O Kut etc,etc.

Frank Sinatra said in the musical " That's Entertainment " You can wait around and hope but you will never see that again "And you waited from 1962, until NOW to get this off your chest? :banghead:

I couldn't live that way my own self, but, hey, to each their own!

wolfshead
02-15-2010, 04:36 PM
I don't see what relevance Rolex watches have to any discussion here. They are nothing but power jewelry, and you can get a time piece just as accurate for $25.

In audio there are improvements in performance at the higher price points. Yes, there is some conspicuous consumption going on as well, but there are definite tiers of music reproduction quality as well.

I'm having difficulty finding the focus of your posts.

I also think you missed the main point of mine that you quoted.
A boom box reproduces music and a cheap audio system purchased at Walmart does the same.
One does not buy a Rolex to keep time , it is bought to make a statement
Oh I might add it will most likey last for many years.

Generally those that purchase high end audio equipment also may purchase high end watches , cars etc.
Those same tiers exist in other consumer items.

scott fitlin
02-15-2010, 04:46 PM
A boom box reproduces music and a cheap audio system purchased at Walmart does the same.Who here purchased their system at Walmart, K-Mart, or any other CHEEP-MART?

Exactly what are you trying to say to us? :hyp:

speakerdave
02-15-2010, 05:05 PM
I think I know what he's saying.

But I definitely know what he's hearing of what anybody else has to say.

Just as all roads lead to Rome, all subjects lead to a collection of classic audio gear, which if you've read the other thread, is indeed cool.

But a monomania isn't.

Point taken, dude, but I'm outta here.

BMWCCA
02-15-2010, 06:33 PM
The list of pioneers in audio of those that sold out or closed because of cheap transistor and the change in musical taste as well as lower expectations is endless. Marantz , Jenson , Electro Voice , Ampex, Crown ...
Has anyone told Crown that they are closed? It might come as a rude shock to the guys and gals in Elkhart, Indiana. :banghead:

scott fitlin
02-15-2010, 10:51 PM
Has anyone told Crown that they are closed? It might come as a rude shock to the guys and gals in Elkhart, Indiana. :banghead:Not only that, but no one told Bass Woofers everywhere hooked up to a Crown, that kick only the way a Crown can make them kick, that they are transistor amplifiers!

It is a dayum shame I say! :D

o0OBillO0o
02-16-2010, 02:03 AM
The advent of the transistor enable U.S. manufactures to reduce cost in amplification. High power -low cost. The move from valves to transistors had little to do with sonic improvement. It was as they say all about money.

Most speaker design in the United States since 1970 has been built around more exotic driver materials and inexpensive transistors. Thus the vast majority of speakers on the market are multi-driver affairs with complex power eating crossovers. Too many modern speakers are Hifi-ish and
artifical .

The JBL line from the Paragon to the much desired Hartsfields rarely service. Were among the best sounding loudspeakers produced.
My AR'S are an early example of the move away from large music producing speakers to small one's with very little high end but an exceptable low end.

Today audio is only a supporter to video. The iPOD has replaced the CD.
Another move that makes economic sense , but only adds to the exceptability of low quality sound.

Music has paid a major part in the poor quality of today's music, pop music
for example rarely uses an orchestra. The center of most homes today is the entertainment center with the focus on video. The speakers and amplification takes a back seat.

We may wait around and hope but the days of the great music producing systems made in America is over , as are the great movies from Hollywood.

This post got me to register, so I'll bite.

Vintage JBL are like muscle cars, not Rolex watches. Every single muscle car that is available today from their era offer memories, style and gobbs of performance.

That is what this forum is all about, JBL's heritage. Moreover, JBL doesn't run it's own, as far as I know, brand forum - like Klipsch does- Therefore this has become more a less a pseudo JBL/Harman international product forum where consumers can celebrate there audio purchases from said company.

Loudspeaker designs haven't fundamentally changed since there birth. ( Piston, magnet, current..) Same for cars, motor, 4 wheels, seats, etc. But both have become very refined.

Today's JBL speakers are cutting edge, just as any other well established speaker company. Project Everest are top-shelf Luxury speakers. But most would be satisfied with ES100 Towers and even L890's got kudo's from Stereophile. Likewise, and to continue the car bit, You can get a high performing car for much less than a Porsche or Ferrari..

Great music is still available. iPods are not ruining anything, who said you had to compress your music? My iPod is full of Apple Lossless Audio. Don't give into consumerism and understand that now everyone ,even the have nots, are now just getting the concept of Hi-Fi ( now called HD or high definition)

My recommendation, if you want good inexpensive speakers, AND you want to stick with JBL, get their LSR 2300 series Stereo pair, 2 subwoofers and MCS1 controller (http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/General/ProductFamily.aspx?FId=73&MId=5) If that is too small and not enough, then the MCS1 Controller and a pair of PRX535 (http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/general/Product.aspx?PId=48&MId=3)

Lastly, if your a Metal fan get Metallica's S&M, plenty of rock and orchestra.. plenty more out there..

Do not fear my friend.

Allanvh5150
02-16-2010, 02:51 AM
There are many, many dimensions to the problem, but in the end, the fact is people lack discernment, and they spend too much money on crap.

Not really. People that do not care about sound are pretty much always going to have "crap gear". People that dont care for cars are not going to have a garage full of Ferrari's and people that wear digital watches are not going to go out and buy a Rolex that will last them a lifetime and endure any extreme they can deal to it. And most of the time, people buy crap because that is all they can afford.

o0OBillO0o
02-16-2010, 03:05 AM
Not really. People that do not care about sound are pretty much always going to have "crap gear". People that dont care for cars are not going to have a garage full of Ferrari's and people that wear digital watches are not going to go out and buy a Rolex that will last them a lifetime and endure any extreme they can deal to it. And most of the time, people buy crap because that is all they can afford.

Maybe speaker dave should check out JBL's "how to assess Speakers" guide/ course that somewhere out there..

"crap" gear is cheap to make and big business to sell. How many designs from an engineering and business standpoint is based on costing the most to produce? not many. Bang for the buck and lowest bidder win most of the time.

Many Designs, from the days of past, ostensibly are devoid from mass marketing "crap" and contain the best design elements ( construction/quality) that demanding Music fans enjoy for much less than new loudspeakers today.

My third recommendation is to find a set of used Klipsch Lascala's for ~$800 and see what you think..

BMWCCA
02-16-2010, 06:48 AM
My third recommendation is to find a set of used Klipsch Lascala's for ~$800 and see what you think..Been there, done that. Good friend bought a pair for just that amount. He even bought the much-discussed Adcom GFA-555 amp to power them. We all decided my $200 L7s and $100 Crown PS400 blew PWK's stuff into the weeds.

We won't even talk about how they compare to the 4345s, well, because the suggestion of the La Scalas was made at a given price point (even if a NEW pair of La Scala II's will set you back close to $6,000). Funny thing is this guy lived right next door to the house down the street where I got my L7s, before he bought the LaScalas, but he passed on the JBLs (when the asking price was $400) because he remembered them as "Circuit City" JBLs. ;)

Nothing wrong with pre-'70s JBLs. I own a pair. Though most here would probably say JBL's best were made in the '70s and after. Doesn't make pre-70's stuff desirable but you have to separate "collectibility" from "utility". A Paragon is way cool to look at, to touch and feel, and to own and show off. An L300 does all that and sounds better. A 4333 provides the sound without the glitz and bling.

Many people collect Edsels, too, yet no one would call them fun to drive and certainly not their first-choice for a daily commute. A Rolex has similar anachronistic attractions and for a couple hundred-dollars in maintenance each year you can even make them come close to keeping time. But all my bosses with their gold GMT-Masters were always asking me to check my $300 Victorinox Swiss Army watch for the correct time. (I tried Timex and Seiko but they irritated my skin or corroded away.) I'd love to someday be able to say I own a Paragon and show it off, proudly, to my friends. I also love my D130/075/N2400 JBL 030 and will always keep them for their sentimental value AND their sound quality. But I've now moved into the '80s and '90s with my JBL collection that I actually listen to.

It's really nothing to argue about, they're all JBLs. It's not like we're here to talk Klipsch! ;)

Maron Horonzakz
02-16-2010, 07:41 AM
Yeah ???/ well i also own a Klipschorn,,,BUT with JBL drivers,, Take that Bullwinkle..

BMWCCA
02-16-2010, 07:51 AM
Yeah ???/ well i also own a Klipschorn,,,BUT with JBL drivers,, Take that Bullwinkle..
Yeah, I own a big plywood box with a 15" JBL in it, too. Does that make us buds? :D

4313B
02-16-2010, 07:56 AM
Has anyone told Crown that they are closed? It might come as a rude shock to the guys and gals in Elkhart, Indiana. :banghead:Crown is just a prototyping company now. All manufacturing was finally killed as of the second half of last year. This is not the Crown that you are thinking of, although they sure would like you to keep thinking they are. Harman really doesn't want anyone to know that they've killed off all U.S. Manufacturing across all their brands. JBL goes bye bye at the end of June this year. They don't want anyone to know that either so carry on like nothing ever happened. Evidently alot of people don't see any problem with it. Except all the folks who helped build the companies and then lost their jobs...

The Corporation I work for, which dwarfs Harman, is doing away with all U.S. manufacturing this year too. I think it's funny. I'm watching the dismantling of our country with piqued interest. It's a fantastic case study in purposeful social decline. Twenty five percent of the population of the city I live in is below the poverty line and it's growing daily.

As for the interest in old JBL's. It's just people being sentimental and trying to cocoon themselves into a time they remember as being "good". Pure nostalgia. Most of that old gear sounds... well... old. Nothing wrong with that though if it's what you like. The Paragon still does what it was always supposed to do, fill a room with sound...

scott fitlin
02-16-2010, 07:58 AM
Not really. People that do not care about sound are pretty much always going to have "crap gear". People that dont care for cars are not going to have a garage full of Ferrari's and people that wear digital watches are not going to go out and buy a Rolex that will last them a lifetime and endure any extreme they can deal to it. And most of the time, people buy crap because that is all they can afford.BINGO!

Many people today just do not care about sound. And many people of the past did not care about sound either. NOT every house in the 50,s had Hartsfields. Probably more like 1 out of a few hundred had a Hartsfield.

And people LOVED their portable 8 tracks, then we loved our Portable Sony Walkmans, Then our CD Walkmans, NOW our iPods.

We do the same things all over again, with different products, that have different names, BUT THE SAME PURPOSE!

Beowulf57
02-16-2010, 07:59 AM
"Why is it that pre 1970 speakers so prized today ?"

I do not care one bit about what anyone else likes, however the reason I like my pre 1970 speakers is that they reproduce a most enjoyable musical experience with my pre 1970 tube amplifiers - mono-block tube regulated Class A P-P 6B4Gs. What other reason is there for prizing a speaker reproduction system than the sound? Nostalgia has little importance to me. ;)

wolfshead
02-16-2010, 08:09 AM
Yeah ???/ well i also own a Klipschorn,,,BUT with JBL drivers,, Take that Bullwinkle..
You are the second person in St.Louis that I am aware of that put JBL
drivers in a Klipschorn. I listen to a pair about 40 years ago. The sound was excellent.

Klipschorn's problem was poor quality speakers installed. To add JBL speakers greatly increased the price.

4313B
02-16-2010, 08:21 AM
You are the second person in St.Louis that I am aware of that put JBL
drivers in a Klipschorn. I listen to a pair about 40 years ago. The sound was excellent.

Klipschorn's problem was poor quality speakers installed. To add JBL speakers greatly increased the price.Most of the industry thought JBL was on crack for building such high quality drivers. They thought it thoroughly unnecessary. The good news is that JBL now thinks the same thing and sources their drivers from whomever is willing to make them.

Remember that old JBL ad wherein they stated that they'd never settle for 90%. Well they've settled. :rotfl: :applaud: :rotfl:
We'll just have to hope that it's at least 90%. :p

scott fitlin
02-16-2010, 08:27 AM
Most of the industry thought JBL was on crack for building such high quality drivers. They thought it thoroughly unnecessary. The good news is that JBL now thinks the same thing and sources their drivers from whomever is willing to make them.

Remember that old JBL ad wherein they stated that they'd never settle for 90%. Well they've settled. :rotfl: :applaud: :rotfl:
We'll just have to hope that it's at least 90%. :pWassa matta you? "HECHO EN MEXICO" not good for you? :help:

4313B
02-16-2010, 08:31 AM
Wassa matta you? "HECHO EN MEXICO" not good for you? :help:It was fucking fine right where it was for the last sixtysome years... any other stupid questions I can answer?

Tom Brennan
02-16-2010, 08:34 AM
Perhaps the best speakers today are better than the best of 30-40 years ago. But many of us think the best speakers of 30-40 years ago sound much better than most audiophile speakers made today.

Would I favor an Altec 19 over a JBL Everest? Perhaps not. Would I favor a 19 over a new audiophile mini speaker, a Magneplanar (ANY Magneplanar) or any number of cone and dome speakers considered modern "high end"? Yes indeed. Indeed, if I had the room for 19s I'd certainly favor them over my new Martin Logans.

scott fitlin
02-16-2010, 08:39 AM
It was fucking fine right where it was for the last sixtysome years... any other stupid questions I can answer?No, not today, this answer covers most ground! Thank you very much!

I do somehow get the feeling we will definitely know when we get a driver that was made on Friday!

:thmbsup:

Maron Horonzakz
02-16-2010, 08:39 AM
I have no are argument with Mexican Quality control of a product,, Ford is doing pretty good there,,, But be warned,, The BEAN COUNTERS in any corp will find a way to reduce cost,, a bolt here a bolt there and before you know it the product will suffer. Is that why TAD is such an outstanding product?

4313B
02-16-2010, 09:20 AM
No, not today, this answer covers most ground! Thank you very much!

I do somehow get the feeling we will definitely know when we get a driver that was made on Friday!

:thmbsup:Well, it isn't just that they are no longer manufacturing in the U.S.A.;
They now source drivers from third party manufacturers just like everyone else. ;)
Six months ago I had a very heated conversation with one of the guys and he was absolutely livid that he was having to source drivers when JBL used to be able to make anything and everything they needed themselves. He said that he'd been sitting across the table from people telling him that they could offer him turnkey solutions and all he could think about was "JBL used to be turnkey..."

It's just your basic big business bullshit and I'm full up is all... everyone I know is full up...

scott fitlin
02-16-2010, 09:30 AM
Seriously, I know what you mean. However, they are doing what they think is best for them, and regardless of whatever we may think, they will still do it, anyway!

Then again, I have already been down this path with other companies going under, or offshore, and I REFUSE to be miserable over anything. LIFE GOES ON, and IF it won't be a JBL, it will be a TAD or whatever. I will always find something GOOD to use!

Of course, IMO, the same people showing "TURNKEY" solutions are also the same people in ten years that some one else will be showing others a "TURNKEY" solution showing whoever, that these folks, themselves are in fact NO LONGER NEEDED. Then they get shown the door. It is an evil cycle, one that that will bite it's creators in the ass just as it has bitten us at the moment.

4313B
02-16-2010, 09:35 AM
Seriously, I know what you mean. However, they are doing what they think is best for them, and regardless of whatever we may think, they will still do it, anyway!

Then again, I have already been down this path with other companies going under, or offshore, and I REFUSE to be miserable over anything. LIFE GOES ON, and IF it won't be a JBL, it will be a TAD or whatever. I will always find something GOOD to use!

Of course, IMO, the same people showing "TURNKEY" solutions are also the same people in ten years that some one else will be showing others a "TURNKEY" solution showing whoever, that these folks, themselves are in fact NO LONGER NEEDED. Then they get shown the door. It is an evil cycle, one that that will bite it's creators in the ass just as it has bitten us at the moment.
Yep. It's like a death in the family, only so many people are going to be broken up about it. Everyone else has their own problems and life does go on.
I have no are argument with Mexican Quality control of a product,, Ford is doing pretty good there,,,It isn't about Mexican or Chinese or Japanese manufacturing, it's about yet another American company chasing cheap/slave labor at the expense of the social fabric of our own country...

wolfshead
02-16-2010, 09:57 AM
Perhaps the best speakers today are better than the best of 30-40 years ago. But many of us think the best speakers of 30-40 years ago sound much better than most audiophile speakers made today.

Would I favor an Altec 19 over a JBL Everest? Perhaps not. Would I favor a 19 over a new audiophile mini speaker, a Magneplanar (ANY Magneplanar) or any number of cone and dome speakers considered modern "high end"? Yes indeed. Indeed, if I had the room for 19s I'd certainly favor them over my new Martin Logans.
The difference is cost ! One can build a Concert Grand , Patrician or Hartsfield , but what about the cost.
Lansing speakers were built to last , the one's I have are 60 years old !
The quality was outstanding. Workmanship unbelievable.
You can get that same quality today , in anything one buys. Is the public willing to pay for it ?
It will cost much less to manufacture an Everest or Martin Logan than an
EV Patrician , Paragon or Concert Grand.

They still build Steinway Concert Grand piano's as they did 60 years ago.
Look at their cost.
The older piano will perform as well as the new one , but the price difference is unbelievable.

New is not always better , unless new is better , than the cost is also
better. Examine a Paragon , it's construction , what is made today in audio that matches that quality that cost less than $100,000 ! That is built to last generations !!

4313B
02-16-2010, 10:03 AM
It will cost much less to manufacture an EverestI'm not going to buy that one until I dig further. My understanding was that the beautiful E2 box was seriously difficult to get to function correctly with production held up several times until all the issues could be rectified. They might be cheaper now but the front end costs were staggering from what I've heard. I think someone somewhere ate some profit without anything to wash it down with.

scott fitlin
02-16-2010, 10:04 AM
The difference is cost ! One can build a Concert Grand , Patrician or Hartsfield , but what about the cost.
Lansing speakers were built to last , the one's I have are 60 years old !
The quality was outstanding. Workmanship unbelievable.
You can get that same quality today , in anything one buys. Is the public willing to pay for it ?
It will cost much less to manufacture an Everest or Martin Logan than an
EV Patrician , Paragon or Concert Grand.

They still build Steinway Concert Grand piano's as they did 60 years ago.
Look at their cost.
The older piano will perform as well as the new one , but the price difference is unbelievable.

New is not always better , unless new is better , than the cost is also
better. Examine a Paragon , it's construction , what is made today in audio that matches that quality that cost less than $100,000 ! That is built to last generations !!And YOU said it!

YOU state WE can in fact buy the level of quality that was offered years ago, just the cost is prohibitive.

GUESS WHAT? 60 years ago, the cost of Hartsfields and Paragons were prohibitive, then, too. NOT every household had one. NOT every household had a Klipsch corner horn, either. EVERY house DID have a Philco, or whatever brand, RADIO!

Luxury items are exactly that! LUXURY!

Mr. Widget
02-16-2010, 10:19 AM
It isn't about Mexican or Chinese or Japanese manufacturing, it's about yet another American company chasing cheap/slave labor at the expense of the social fabric of our own country...

The difference is cost ! One can build a Concert Grand , Patrician or Hartsfield , but what about the cost.
Lansing speakers were built to last , the one's I have are 60 years old !
The quality was outstanding. Workmanship unbelievable.
You can get that same quality today , in anything one buys. Is the public willing to pay for it ?My grandmother used to say she was too poor to buy cheap goods. Times have changed, people want immediate gratification and think little about the future. I guess I blame the brilliant minds of Madison Avenue who have worked day and night for decades to create this social change. Poor and rich alike share today's mindset of, "Well, it didn't cost much. I'll toss it out and buy another." Corporate leaders now think of their factories and employees this way too. It is simply shortsighted and not sustainable.

Were speakers of 3-4 decades ago better than their counterparts of today? No. Are they worth saving and enjoying? Hell yes!

Is an $800 pair of La Scalas better than any $800 pair of speakers sold today? To some people yes, but it is far from being a universal truth. Same is true for $4K Hartsfields, $5K Paragons etc. etc.


Widget

wolfshead
02-16-2010, 10:35 AM
And YOU said it!

YOU state WE can in fact buy the level of quality that was offered years ago, just the cost is prohibitive.

GUESS WHAT? 60 years ago, the cost of Hartsfields and Paragons were prohibitive, then, too. NOT every household had one. NOT every household had a Klipsch corner horn, either. EVERY house DID have a Philco, or whatever brand, RADIO!

Luxury items are exactly that! LUXURY!
I never indicated that a Hartsfield was for the masses or the average person. People who purchase Hartsfields or Paragons are not average.
Used or new. They are bought by either hobbist or collectors.

The avereage household today generally doesn't have an audio system
but an entertainment center , the audio supplements the video.
There are very few audiophiles around today. Very few audio stores.

I Might add not every household owns a Rolex or a high performance German car. Is audio any different ? The masses are average, high end audio is not average.

SEAWOLF97
02-16-2010, 10:53 AM
The avereage household today generally doesn't have an audio system
but an entertainment center ,

I Might add not every household owns a Rolex or a high performance German car. The masses are average, high end audio is not average.

Always called myself super-average ...

but DO have 3+ audio systems , NO entertainment centers
and DO have a Rolex (but prefer Omegas)
and DO have a high performance German car (but ride my bikes more)

Oh no...does this mean that I can't be average anymore ?

wolfshead
02-16-2010, 10:56 AM
My grandmother used to say she was too poor to buy cheap goods. Times have changed, people want immediate gratification and think little about the future. I guess I blame the brilliant minds of Madison Avenue who have worked day and night for decades to create this social change. Poor and rich alike share today's mindset of, "Well, it didn't cost much. I'll toss it out and buy another." Corporate leaders now think of their factories and employees this way too. It is simply shortsighted and not sustainable.

Were speakers of 3-4 decades ago better than their counterparts of today? No. Are they worth saving and enjoying? Hell yes!

Is an $800 pair of La Scalas better than any $800 pair of speakers sold today? To some people yes, but it is far from being a universal truth. Same is true for $4K Hartsfields, $5K Paragons etc. etc.


Widget
Not true , there are people who want and purchase quality items. Otherwise there would not exist a Neiman Marcus. Brioni men's suits or
Mercedes S series cars.
The Stradivari violin is today the most expensive violin ever made. Is there
a better violin made today ? What about a faberge egg ? What's better ?

Again certainly they are building speakers today the equal if not the superior of Hartsfields and Concert Grands , Stenway does , cost over $150,000 !.

As for as corporate greed , that's another subject. Didn't Gordon Gekko
state in "Wallstreet " GREED IS GOOD.

wolfshead
02-16-2010, 11:14 AM
Always called myself super-average ...

but DO have 3+ audio systems , NO entertainment centers
and DO have a Rolex (but prefer Omegas)
and DO have a high performance German car (but ride my bikes more)

Oh no...does this mean that I can't be average anymore ?
Great question. Stanley Marcus , founder of Neiman Maricus once said:
It is one thing to own , another to appreciate ".

Why would one want to be average ?

scott fitlin
02-16-2010, 11:17 AM
I never indicated that a Hartsfield was for the masses or the average person. People who purchase Hartsfields or Paragons are not average.
Used or new. They are bought by either hobbist or collectors.

The avereage household today generally doesn't have an audio system
but an entertainment center , the audio supplements the video.
There are very few audiophiles around today. Very few audio stores.

I Might add not every household owns a Rolex or a high performance German car. Is audio any different ? The masses are average, high end audio is not average.Yo, Wolf, TODAY the HT system IS what TELEVISION was 40 years ago. People may not see the need for supreme audio systems, but they will not go without TV.

SEAWOLF97
02-16-2010, 11:33 AM
Why would one want to be average ?

so I can wear sheeps clothing..:blink: ...actually it was the best way to hide within the military , or at IRS time or during negotiations or on internet forums....


but they will not go without TV.

No TV in my LR ...they's hidden away.....LR is audio ONLY. As the TV's break, I'd like to not replace them.

scott fitlin
02-16-2010, 11:56 AM
No TV in my LR ...they's hidden away.....LR is audio ONLY. As the TV's break, I'd like to not replace them.Do you have children?

Let me see a household with a 5 year old, a 10 year old, and a 13 year old WITHOUT a TV, OR HT system!

I won't say anything, but I bet that house will rectify the TV situation, DIRECTLY!

:D

SEAWOLF97
02-16-2010, 12:14 PM
Do you have children?

Let me see a household with a 5 year old, a 10 year old, and a 13 year old WITHOUT a TV, OR HT system!

I won't say anything, but I bet that house will rectify the TV situation, DIRECTLY!

:D

Uhh Scotty...I turn 61 in April ..my dotter in 39 and a DJ in Germany, my 29 y.o. son is headed for the U of London in September...dont think either of them will complain. :rotfl:

jcrobso
02-16-2010, 12:16 PM
Yeah ???/ well i also own a Klipschorn,,,BUT with JBL drivers,, Take that Bullwinkle..
JBLs in "K" corner horn is very nice!:D
I own pre 1970 JBLs and love them, I own post 1970 JBL also, to each his own. The new JBLs are just way out of my price range, but vintage JBL is not.
If you can afford the new JBL speakers I think that that is great!!:applaud:
But my champagne sound system on beer budget does not allow this.:(

scott fitlin
02-16-2010, 12:19 PM
Uhh Scotty...I turn 61 in April ..my dotter in 39 and a DJ in Germany, my 29 y.o. son is headed for the U of London in September...dont think either of them will complain. :rotfl:But when they were younger, AND living at home?

OTOH, kids with the DJ bug don't care much about TV, I didn't! :rotfl:

SEAWOLF97
02-16-2010, 12:27 PM
But when they were younger, AND living at home?

back then the TV was more a monitor for the VCR so I could control what was watched....lots of "Gumby & Pokey" and "Yellow Submarine" , even as grownups they still appreciate those. I do too.

prolly made my kids weird (non-average)

scott fitlin
02-16-2010, 12:34 PM
back then the TV was more a monitor for the VCR so I could control what was watched....lots of "Gumby & Pokey" and "Yellow Submarine" , even as grownups they still appreciate those. I do too.AGREE! :yes:

SMKSoundPro
02-16-2010, 01:08 PM
WOW!!!

I am sure am glad i stayed out of this one!!!

And, I am grateful for my superb vintage old school JBL and Crown hi-fi's to let me hear the beautiful sounds of the crashing good china and shattering leaded crystal goblets as all of you were spouting off to one another!

I am going back to work. How about you?

Love you guys, and Miss Heather, but come on...

scotty.

hjames
02-16-2010, 01:39 PM
WOW!!!

I am sure am glad i stayed out of this one!!!

And, I am grateful for my superb vintage old school JBL and Crown
hi-fi's to let me hear the beautiful sounds of the crashing good china
and shattering leaded crystal goblets as all of you were spouting off to one another!

I am going back to work. How about you?

scotty.

Nah, they'll be snapping at each other for another page or 2 -
I don't think they have the critical mass of the old days
so it won't tear down through another 6 pages
like the old rant and rip sessions did ... (thank goodness!)

SEAWOLF97
02-16-2010, 01:51 PM
Nah, they'll be snapping at each other for another page or 2 -
I don't think they have the critical mass of the old days
so it won't tear down through another 6 pages
like the old rant and rip sessions did ... (thank goodness!)

thats why I purposely lead the thread OT....;)

hjames
02-16-2010, 01:56 PM
thats why I purposely lead the thread OT....;)

FWIW - I liked the old suede sheep with red neon eyes
better than the newer black sheep at midnight avatar ...

demon
02-16-2010, 02:14 PM
thats why I purposely lead the thread OT....;)
elegant move!


FWIW - I liked the old suede sheep with red neon eyes
better than the newer black sheep at midnight avatar ...

and i wanna add that the signation would slightly improve if you make the "sheep" a "wet sheep", or make at least the clothing of the sheep wet, so it fits the seaWolf better.
you gotta be realistic.

:)

cheers,
mikey

SEAWOLF97
02-16-2010, 03:57 PM
FWIW - I liked the old suede sheep with red neon eyes




elegant move!

not bad for an average guy ?




and i wanna add that the signation would slightly improve if you make the "sheep" a "wet sheep", or make at least the clothing of the sheep wet, so it fits the seaWolf better.
you gotta be realistic.

I'll look for a wet filter ( wow, how much further OT can we go ??) ...but, this winter I'm staying pretty dry in GorTex , so it only beads on me.

wolfshead
02-17-2010, 08:25 AM
back then the TV was more a monitor for the VCR so I could control what was watched....lots of "Gumby & Pokey" and "Yellow Submarine" , even as grownups they still appreciate those. I do too.

prolly made my kids weird (non-average)
Back than as you put it was the golden age of television. Not the over sexed , poor dialogue , sitcoms passing for comedy we have today.
Entertainers were seasoned veterans , coming from radio , screen , stage and vaudeville .
There was no need to monitor your television. The music was well written
by great composers , scripts well done. Jack Benny for example had 25 writers. Today comedians are lucky to have one !

Sinatra , Mathis , Day , crosby , Cole , Streisand etc. sang with orchestras. lyrics were well done by lyricist such as Johnny Mercer
Hart and others.

In that background the engineers from many audio comapies that themselves loved music created outstanding audio equipment. Listenable equipment. Today well as you posted , monitor your children as to what they watch and listen to. Times have changed !!!!

scott fitlin
02-17-2010, 08:39 AM
Back than as you put it was the golden age of television. Not the over sexed , poor dialogue , sitcoms passing for comedy we have today.
Entertainers were seasoned veterans , coming from radio , screen , stage and vaudeville .
There was no need to monitor your television. The music was well written
by great composers , scripts well done. Jack Benny for example had 25 writers. Today comedians are lucky to have one !

Sinatra , Mathis , Day , crosby , Cole , Streisand etc. sang with orchestras. lyrics were well done by lyricist such as Johnny Mercer
Hart and others.

In that background the engineers from many audio comapies that themselves loved music created outstanding audio equipment. Listenable equipment. Today well as you posted , monitor your children as to what they watch and listen to. Times have changed !!!!Tell me something WHAT do you like?

I mean I have read your posts, even in The BEST JBL EVER thread, you slag todays music, and to some extent, YEAH it is different than what you or I grew up on. BUT still, there is good music around, just it is different. And what about when Rock & Roll was OH SO NEW? How many people slagged this as NOISE! That DAYUM Electric GEETAR!

But, you don't seem to like anything! The world has changed in 50 years, DRAMATICALLY! I, myself, don't always agree with everything today, but, guess what? It will happen anyway!

The Rolling Stones! They sang a song, about this very thing. "What a drag it is, GETTING OLD"

And, Wolf, not to mention it, BUT you are online! This means your using a computer, and that means your using TODAYS technology to be heard. Because, umm, well, you know, they just didn't have these newfangled darn gadget thingies, back in the GOOD 'OL DAYS your talking about!

Today must not be all that bad!

SEAWOLF97
02-17-2010, 09:44 AM
Back than as you put it was the golden age of television. Not the over sexed , poor dialogue , sitcoms passing for comedy we have today.
Entertainers were seasoned veterans , coming from radio , screen , stage and vaudeville .
There was no need to monitor your television. The music was well written
by great composers , scripts well done. Jack Benny for example had 25 writers. Today comedians are lucky to have one !

Sinatra , Mathis , Day , crosby , Cole , Streisand etc. sang with orchestras. lyrics were well done by lyricist such as Johnny Mercer
Hart and others.

In that background the engineers from many audio comapies that themselves loved music created outstanding audio equipment. Listenable equipment. Today well as you posted , monitor your children as to what they watch and listen to. Times have changed !!!!

Mebbe you missed the post with my kids ages..they were born in '71 & '81 ....hardly the "Golden Age of TV" .....more of the "Sonny & Cher" , "Donnie & Marie" and "Starsky & Hutch" age ...there was a lot of TV crap in those days too ....dont romanticize it too much .

Better life lessons were learned from Gumby on VHS.

Got a thang for Sinatra ?

__________________________________________________ ________________

My Dad , who was a "Who's Who in America" psychologist, liked to relate the quip that the oldest written record of man -the Dead Sea scrolls- on page 1 , para 1 , starts out
"Oh woe is me , for the good ole days are gone, never to return"

Maron Horonzakz
02-17-2010, 09:57 AM
May I step in??? No the music today is not bad,,Remember you dont need to go to college to compose or wright music,,, Paul McCartney wanted to compose a Symphony,,He had to hier a Editor and arranger to fill in the details,, There is a band called "Big Bad Voodoo Daddy, I like, and I was suprised at all the instriments besides a guitar they used. And of all things they wore suits. Yes music is now different but not bad.

LE15-Thumper
02-17-2010, 10:06 AM
Quote: Example what popular singer today compares with Frank Sinatra ? or dancer with Fred Astaire ?
Excellence can be had today but at a very high price. A Rolex Dayjust in 1963 sold for $150.00 today $6500.00.

Well, as far as singers go, I can think of many that are at least as good as what Frankie was....Harry Connick Jr, Michaek Buble, Matt Dusk, Julio Iglesias, Kurt Elling, George Benson.

I think for some reason we don't want to think that something newer can be better than the "Classics" because somehow it may take away from their uniqueness or how we remember them.

But it is man's quest to be better AND do better in our undertakings.

Take the L-100 speaker, probably the most recognizable speaker ever made, how does it sound ? And by today's standards ?

Well, I can think of dozen's that smoke it for sonic quality and tonal balance at or around $500.00 in today's dollars. What did they sell for in the 70's ?

But yet these speakers garner a good buck in the used market, why ? Who knows for sure.

How many of today's compression drivers (even non-JBL) would sound better than the venerable 375 ? And for a sh*tload less cash, even at the 375's 1960 price !

Your Rolex in 1963 was made by people that were earning less than $2.00 an hour, keep that in mind as well.

Mr. Widget
02-17-2010, 10:38 AM
Sinatra , Mathis , Day , crosby , Cole , Streisand etc. sang with orchestras. lyrics were well done by lyricist such as Johnny Mercer Hart and others....and you don't think the classically trained musicians gagged at the sentimental dribble they were sometimes asked to play?

Life is a cycle not a linear continuum. There is good and bad in every generation, but the warm glowy filter of nostalgia certainly makes yesteryear appealing... kids today are dusting off turntables, wearing headphones, and clothes that look a lot like the stuff we wore years ago. I thought the '70s with all of those dark stained pine waterbeds and walnut vinyl covered everything was a pretty terrible thing that could never be fondly remembered... the '60s were filled with anger and contempt... the "Happy Days" weren't really so happy for so many...

Today with all of it's problems is a pretty damned good time to be alive and what's more, it's all we've got so go out and embrace it!


Widget

Doc Mark
02-17-2010, 10:52 AM
...and you don't think the classically trained musicians gagged at the sentimental dribble they were sometimes asked to play?

Life is a cycle not a linear continuum. There is good and bad in every generation, but the warm glowy filter of nostalgia certainly makes yesteryear appealing... kids today are dusting off turntables, wearing headphones, and clothes that look a lot like the stuff we wore years ago. I thought the '70s with all of those dark stained pine waterbeds and walnut vinyl covered everything was a pretty terrible thing that could never be fondly remembered... the '60s were filled with anger and contempt... the "Happy Days" weren't really so happy for so many...

Today with all of it's problems is a pretty damned good time to be alive and what's more, it's all we've got so go out and embrace it!


Widget

Mr. Widget,

Your comments are spot on the money, Sir! Well said, and absolutely true. Sweet Bride and I are very happy to be alive today, and though there are certainly some things about how people treat each other today, that seem wrong to us, we know that there were people "back on the day" who did the same, or worse, things to their fellow man!

If I could pick out one thing that really does seem to be missing, overall, from today's existance, that was, more of less, the way to do business "back in the day", it is that today a man's word doesn't seem to count for too much, and the phrase "a man's word is his bond" is virtually unheard of by many today. Not to say that there aren't honest, generous, kind, and caring people around. Just look at many of our LH members, and you will find a ton of them!! But, many people today don't seem to honor their given word as often as they did "back in the day", in daily person to person contact. Just my opinion.....

Again, thank you for your wise words concerning "the old days". Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

scott fitlin
02-17-2010, 11:02 AM
Today with all of it's problems is a pretty damned good time to be alive and what's more, it's all we've got so go out and embrace it!


WidgetThis I agree with wholeheartedly.

The way I view things now, is that "WE" are currently experiencing "THE GOLDEN ERA" of digital. I say this, because right now, everything is being invented, and perfected, etc. VERY MUCH like "THE GOLDEN AGE OF HiFi", or TELEVISION.

And, besides the music and speaker technologies of today being good sounding, albeit, different somewhat than what we once had, IT is FUN to use!

Now, from yet another perspective, I have a business that music, TODAYS music, is an integral component! And the young people today want to hear TODAYS music, and IF you try to tell them what it was and what it SHOULD be? They will look at you, the same way WE looked at our parents when they said these same things to us! Then they laugh, and continue doing or listening to, what they like.

Vocals! There are GOOD vocals today. Yes, the music styles and recording technologies are different, but, vocal emotion still shines through in a GOOD digital recording.

Two vocals worth hearing?

1. What Happened To Us- The Jinks Feat. Carla Prather, Bargrooves Over Ice, available at Beatport.com

2. Hey Hey-Dennis Ferrer, also available at beatport.com.

And these are HUMAN vocals, combined with todays music sounds and electronic instruments and TODAYS recording technology! You can play this music through Hartsfields, L100,s, Todays Revel, or modern JBL, or B & W, or just thru an iPod.

But, regardless of what I hear it through, I LIKE THIS MUSIC! I like hearing it through the BETTER setups, of course, but, even through lesser systems, the emotion comes through.

BTW, Dennis Ferrer was nominated for a grammy, and just as has always been the case, todays unknown is tomorrows history!

scott fitlin
02-17-2010, 11:06 AM
And, from my fathers point of view, as he is 73, and I spoke with him last evening, HIS BIG LED HI DEF FLATSCREEN TV of TODAY, kicks the shit out of the "DuMont" TV they used to go downstairs to the neighbors apt on Tuesday, to watch Milton Berle on.

wolfshead
02-17-2010, 11:19 AM
Quote: Example what popular singer today compares with Frank Sinatra ? or dancer with Fred Astaire ?
Excellence can be had today but at a very high price. A Rolex Dayjust in 1963 sold for $150.00 today $6500.00.

Well, as far as singers go, I can think of many that are at least as good as what Frankie was....Harry Connick Jr, Michaek Buble, Matt Dusk, Julio Iglesias, Kurt Elling, George Benson.

I think for some reason we don't want to think that something newer can be better than the "Classics" because somehow it may take away from their uniqueness or how we remember them.

But it is man's quest to be better AND do better in our undertakings.


Take the L-100 speaker, probably the most recognizable speaker ever made, how does it sound ? And by today's standards ?

Well, I can think of dozen's that smoke it for sonic quality and tonal balance at or around $500.00 in today's dollars. What did they sell for in the 70's ?

But yet these speakers garner a good buck in the used market, why ? Who knows for sure.

How many of today's compression drivers (even non-JBL) would sound better than the venerable 375 ? And for a sh*tload less cash, even at the 375's 1960 price !

Your Rolex in 1963 was made by people that were earning less than $2.00 an hour, keep that in mind as well.

Read some of the reviews regarding the JBL L-100 , they exaggerate the upper mid-range frequencies , , great presence , west coast sound etc. the JBL L-200 was considered much better.

Question , how does something become a classic ? The singers you listed I would be surprised if they ever achieved the staus of classic.

In 1963 Swiss workers earned more than $2.00 per hour. They earned more than American workers.
Finally one can buy audio that is better than what was produced pre 1970's but at a great price. Example one can buy a Hickey Freeman suit today that cost $250.00 in 1967 today $1800,00 , not many people today buy Hickey Freeman suits, they did in the 1970's.

scott fitlin
02-17-2010, 11:28 AM
Read some of the reviews regarding the JBL L-100 , they exaggerate the upper mid-range frequencies , , great presence , west coast sound etc. the JBL L-200 was considered much better.

Question , how does something become a classic ? The singers you listed I would be surprised if they ever achieved the staus of classic.

In 1963 Swiss workers earned more than $2.00 per hour. They earned more than American workers.
Finally one can buy audio that is better than what was produced pre 1970's but at a great price. Example one can buy a Hickey Freeman suit today that cost $250.00 in 1967 today $1800,00 , not many people today buy Hickey Freeman suits, they did in the 1970's.Dianne Krall is destined to achieve CLASSIC status. And she hails from TODAY, not yesterday.

As I was told, and have watched on re-runs of the old TV programs, Elvis was NOT all that well received by parents, especially with those gyrating hips and all. He is beyond CLASSIC and has reached CULT status. The Beatles with their long hair and twangy guitars, the same thing.

How can you predict what will NOT be classic because you don't see it or hear it?

Your right, we don't wear Hickey Freemans like we once did! Now we wear Zegna, and other European designer wear.

hjames
02-17-2010, 11:29 AM
Read some of the reviews regarding the JBL L-100 , they exaggerate the upper mid-range frequencies , , great presence , west coast sound etc. the JBL L-200 was considered much better.


If memory serves, the L-200 was a more expensive speaker than the L-100, so - it SHOULD sound better, doncha think?
Bet the L-300 sounded even better than that!

wolfshead
02-17-2010, 11:33 AM
...and you don't think the classically trained musicians gagged at the sentimental dribble they were sometimes asked to play?

Life is a cycle not a linear continuum. There is good and bad in every generation, but the warm glowy filter of nostalgia certainly makes yesteryear appealing... kids today are dusting off turntables, wearing headphones, and clothes that look a lot like the stuff we wore years ago. I thought the '70s with all of those dark stained pine waterbeds and walnut vinyl covered everything was a pretty terrible thing that could never be fondly remembered... the '60s were filled with anger and contempt... the "Happy Days" weren't really so happy for so many...

Today with all of it's problems is a pretty damned good time to be alive and what's more, it's all we've got so go out and embrace it!


Widget
I agree as Bogart said I made a lot of bad movies to. Did you know in the
1970's one could by a speaker covered in walnut for $76.00 ! The AR4ax.
I wonder what a walnut covered speaker would cost today ?

As for as the different decades there was good and bad , if one is alive it is a good time. There were golden years in motion pictures , comedy , television , sports, such as baseball , men clothing and audio.
Most kids today are listening to ipod's.
Men's fashion , now really. most everyone today appears to be wearing jeans and athletic shoes. That's dress ? Cary Grant would never do that.
Nor would Fred Astaire !
I would certainly prefer to listen to sentimental dripple than rap music that calls women B's and H's.
Only a counterpoint.

LE15-Thumper
02-17-2010, 11:36 AM
Wolf....stop digging....you're just getting yourself deeper and deeper.

scott fitlin
02-17-2010, 11:45 AM
I agree as Bogart said I made a lot of bad movies to. Did you know in the
1970's one could by a speaker covered in walnut for $76.00 ! The AR4ax.
I wonder what a walnut covered speaker would cost today ?

I would certainly prefer to listen to sentimental dripple than rap music that calls women B's and H's.
Only a counterpoint.Who says Rap and Hip Hop are the ONLY modern forms of POP music? I didn't! I am talking about HOUSE and TECHNO music. Although it will NOT be everyones cup of tea, I gave you two tunes at a certain website to hear, and see what IS out there, BESIDES just what WE see on TV and hear many young people listening to! There is still many forms of music being performed.

Walnut covered speakers for $76.00! Yeah, man, I remember when a Cadillac Eldorado, TOTL for it's time. And that car cost $10,000 new in 1973. IF YOU COULD AFFORD THAT!

Then, they went up to $12,000, then by the time I was 20, a TOTL car was $20,000 to $25,000 and I remember thinking HOW will I ever afford this?

And today, a really TOTL car, is $80,000 and UPPPPP!

What is really any different about speaker pricing?

Counter Counter point!

robertbartsch
02-17-2010, 11:45 AM
I object to the folks here who blast so-called bean counters.

I've been a CPA in public practice for 30 years and I have traveled the world on business. I've lived in Asia, Europe and have worked in Korea, Japan, Malyasia, UK, Switzerland, France, Germany, Columbia and on and on and on....

I think it fair to say that Harman was at a near death situation a couple of years ago but recently, the company is doing much better. In fact, the share price went from $10 but $35 in the last year and jumped 12% in just a single day last week.

So why is Harman moving manufacturing off shore?

Simple answer: CAPITAL sees no national boundaries; it moves to the places where it can perform the best. Bean counters are not at fault here. If capital is not moved to places where it can perform well, the businesses that imploy capital fail.

Unfortunately, the U.S. has lost its manufacturing base because it is no longer a competitive place to do this. Poor government policies, high taxes, massive deficits, high labor costs, unions, open borders, poor education systems, local taxes, restrictive environmental laws are all factors.

Have a nice day!

wolfshead
02-17-2010, 11:46 AM
This I agree with wholeheartedly.

The way I view things now, is that "WE" are currently experiencing "THE GOLDEN ERA" of digital. I say this, because right now, everything is being invented, and perfected, etc. VERY MUCH like "THE GOLDEN AGE OF HiFi", or TELEVISION.

And, besides the music and speaker technologies of today being good sounding, albeit, different somewhat than what we once had, IT is FUN to use!

Now, from yet another perspective, I have a business that music, TODAYS music, is an integral component! And the young people today want to hear TODAYS music, and IF you try to tell them what it was and what it SHOULD be? They will look at you, the same way WE looked at our parents when they said these same things to us! Then they laugh, and continue doing or listening to, what they like.

Vocals! There are GOOD vocals today. Yes, the music styles and recording technologies are different, but, vocal emotion still shines through in a GOOD digital recording.

Two vocals worth hearing?

1. What Happened To Us- The Jinks Feat. Carla Prather, Bargrooves Over Ice, available at Beatport.com

2. Hey Hey-Dennis Ferrer, also available at beatport.com.

And these are HUMAN vocals, combined with todays music sounds and electronic instruments and TODAYS recording technology! You can play this music through Hartsfields, L100,s, Todays Revel, or modern JBL, or B & W, or just thru an iPod.

But, regardless of what I hear it through, I LIKE THIS MUSIC! I like hearing it through the BETTER setups, of course, but, even through lesser systems, the emotion comes through.

BTW, Dennis Ferrer was nominated for a grammy, and just as has always been the case, todays unknown is tomorrows history!
Music is an art it is learned. Young people today generally are not exposed to Gershwin or Kern. As most young people in a question asked and reported in the New York Times , stated that Japan was an ally in World War Two. No wonder when President Obama said he had visited 57 states it went unnoticed.

I use my iPhone and drive my computer filled car , watch HD television,
and also responding to post here on the audio forum , offering counterpoints to many of your post.

You are a great bunch of guys , a great website.
Wolfshead

scott fitlin
02-17-2010, 11:47 AM
If memory serves, the L-200 was a more expensive speaker than the L-100, so - it SHOULD sound better, doncha think?
Bet the L-300 sounded even better than that!But, alas, NOT every house had a pair of L-300,s!

But I know they wish they did! :bouncy:

scott fitlin
02-17-2010, 11:51 AM
Music is an art it is learned. Young people today generally are not exposed to Gershwin or Kern. As most young people in a question asked and reported in the New York Times , stated that Japan was an ally in World War Two. No wonder when President Obama said he had visited 57 states it went unnoticed.

I use my iPhone and drive my computer filled car , watch HD television,
and also responding to post here on the audio forum , offering counterpoints to many of your post.

You are a great bunch of guys , a great website.
WolfsheadWolf, we love talking, and sharing and expressing various points of view. Stick around, the NEWNESS will wear off on you, too!

:bouncy:

wolfshead
02-17-2010, 12:02 PM
Dianne Krall is destined to achieve CLASSIC status. And she hails from TODAY, not yesterday.

As I was told, and have watched on re-runs of the old TV programs, Elvis was NOT all that well received by parents, especially with those gyrating hips and all. He is beyond CLASSIC and has reached CULT status. The Beatles with their long hair and twangy guitars, the same thing.

How can you predict what will NOT be classic because you don't see it or hear it?

Your right, we don't wear Hickey Freemans like we once did! Now we wear Zegna, and other European designer wear.
Zegna over done for men great for women. I bought a pair of Church shoes now owned by Zegna , a disgrace. The men clothing website's crucify
Zegna owned Church shoes once one of the best made men shoes.

Elvis , couldn't sing , act or dance. he did appeal to the young. Didn't last long as a singer , about 7 years ! finished his life drugged out, working at a dive.
The Beetles a little better , didn't last very long either. Sinatra lasted 6
decades ! late 30's until the early 90's.
Dianne Krall , how long will she last ? Doris Day 40's through the 80's was
a star in radio , movies , television , and recording. Was the number one box office attraction 5 times in motion pictures. That's what I call classic.

scott fitlin
02-17-2010, 12:11 PM
Well, nonetheless, our days of being the current trendsetters and tastemakers DO NOT last forever! One mans trash is another mans treasure.

I like Louis Armstrong, myself, but, I only listen to his music once in a while. Not that I don't care for it anymore, but many times I find myself wanting something a bit more modern. Forward thinking some call it!

All depends on how you look at things, I guess. You see tin, I see platinum.

Titanium Dome
02-17-2010, 12:29 PM
Unfortunately, the U.S. has lost its manufacturing base because it is no longer a competitive place to do this. Poor government policies, high taxes, massive deficits, high labor costs, unions, open borders, poor education systems, local taxes, restrictive environmental laws are all factors.

Have a nice day!

And there it is.

Titanium Dome
02-17-2010, 12:31 PM
Well, nonetheless, our days of being the current trendsetters and tastemakers DO NOT last forever!


All depends on how you look at things, I guess. You see tin, I see platinum.

The bullet train has left the station, and most people over 50 are still standing on the platform waiting for a steam engine to pull in, like in the good old days.

scott fitlin
02-17-2010, 12:40 PM
The bullet train has left the station, and most people over 50 are still standing on the platform waiting for a steam engine to pull in, like in the good old days.:applaud::rotfl::applaud:

ALL ABOARD! NEXT STOP, NOO YAWK CITAY!


:dj-party:

Titanium Dome
02-17-2010, 12:42 PM
Music is more accessible, prolific, innovative, and interesting today than at any other time in history. The first three are provable facts, the third, interesting, is a subjective judgment, and one that I hold.

This discussion has the feeling that music needs to be on some kind of straight, historical line and exist in one time. Let me tell you this: The music of Sinatra still exists. So does the music of Handel, Greig, and Hendrix. It's additive, it's cumulative. There is never less music!

Just as music accumulates, it also mutates. As new genres emerge (house, trance, industrial, nu-jazz, trip-hop, globalgroove) old ones branch out ( http://www.otherminds.org ) and EVERYTHING IS BETTER.

scott fitlin
02-17-2010, 12:44 PM
Music is more accessible, prolific, innovative, and interesting today than at any other time in history. The first three are provable facts, the third, interesting, is a subjective judgment, and one that I hold.

This discussion has the feeling that music needs to be on some kind of straight, historical line and exist in one time. Let me tell you this: The music of Sinatra still exists. So does the music of Handel, Greig, and Hendrix. It's additive, it's cumulative. There is never less music!

Just as music accumulates, it also mutates. As new genres emerge (house, trance, industrial, nu-jazz, trip-hop, globalgroove) old ones branch out ( http://www.otherminds.org ) and EVERYTHING IS BETTER.YESSS!

Allanvh5150
02-17-2010, 12:46 PM
Wolf has a lot of very valid points. I think though he is generalising and as such, most things made today are rubbish compared to their contemporaries. As far as music goes, todays efforts are bollocks. Sure there are some good examples but in general pretty average. Many "artists" today are niche market and it is relatively easy to be the best of the best when you are only standing on the top of a crap heap. I have been a proffesional musician for 30 years or so, I have written and produced music over the years and have been trained in everything from Classical, Baroque, all the way through Pop, Rock, Metal and pretty much everything else. Most "musicians" today wouldnt know what a B double sharp is or what notes the key of E flat flat contains. To me, to be called a musician you need some sort of qualification. If you want to talk about who is the best here is a short list: Cliff Richard, The Rolling Stones, The Who, The Beach Boys, Kiss, Van Halen, The Beetles, Abba, Rod Stewart, the list goes on. Why are they the best? They are still doing what they have always done, but most importantly, They appeal to the masses. The efforts of the last 2 decades will ring on for the next 100 years?, I doubt it very much. As good as Diana Krall may be in her chosen genre, her husband has a far wider fan base and indeed a far wider musical ability.

The only time today, that I can see, when products are better than the ones that have passed, are the very top end. Middle of the road musical instruments are junk, TV's and most other midrange appliances are made to las for 5 years or so, if that, Cars are made to go well for 5 years and then are junked.

Most of the things in my music room are 25 years or older and I will challenge anyone to show me a system from today that is at least twice as good without spending more than 100K, even then it would be debateable.

The argument can go in other directions as well. As a pilot I have a distinct love for aircraft. Which is better? A B52 or a B2, an F15 or an F22, a 747-8 or an A380?

I am open to all bites.:)

Allan.

Titanium Dome
02-17-2010, 12:56 PM
Today we can play the best selection and variety of music on the BEST EQUIPMENT EVER, in more brands, varieties, sizes, and price ranges than ever before.

MP3 players: got 'em
portable stereos: got 'em
music streaming: got it
digital and analog radio: got 'em
vinyl players got 'em
tape decks: got 'em
CD/DVD/BD/LD players: got 'em
tiny speakers: got 'em
ear buds: got 'em
headphones: got 'em
near field monitors: got 'em
bookshelf speakers: got 'em
HTIB: got it
floorstanding full range speakers: got 'em
THX certified home theater speakers: got 'em
Pro studio monitors: got 'em
high end statement speakers: got 'em
fully calibrated and matched systems (like Synthesis®): got 'em

Man, if there isn't a medium and system that you like and can afford, you're not looking very hard.


:rockon2:THIS IS THE GOLDEN AGE:applaud:

scott fitlin
02-17-2010, 01:01 PM
And only every genre of music, technology, and products, have had their good, their great and their garbage, too. Once something gets going, many knockoffs come to the marketplace. Many companies that just want to cash in on current fads.

Same as it ever was!

And, there are products from 25 years ago, that were in fact so well made they do still work well today! And that many are even still around today, well, what a testament, and THE BEST OF THEN WAS EQUALLY HARD TO AFFORD BY MOST AS IT STILL IS TODAY! But, there are products made today, that will OUTPERFORM the older designs, in many ways. 25 years ago, high compliance woofers were commonplace. I LOVED High Compliance suspensions, ONLY I found out the hard way, they work great with music of their period, but not as well as ( IMO ) with todays bass heavy music.

CARS! Cars are the same. What once cost 12 grand, and was WELL MADE FROM GREAT materials, now costs 80 grand! Now the old luxury and muscle cars are classic, no doubt, but most of todays mid price cars will outdo the older cars in terms of handling, acceleration, braking! And the premium sports and luxury cars TROUNCE yesteryears muscle and luxo cars, IN EVERY WAY! The older cars are still classic, but.... About us NOT holding on to cars for ten to 12 years, well I like a new car every 3 years myself, so, oh, and some of the amenities offered in todays cars, are OFF THE HOOK!

Time don't stand still, not for anyone!

4313B
02-17-2010, 01:06 PM
I object to the folks here who blast so-called bean counters.

I've been a CPA in public practice for 30 years and I have traveled the world on business. I've lived in Asia, Europe and have worked in Korea, Japan, Malyasia, UK, Switzerland, France, Germany, Columbia and on and on and on....

I think it fair to say that Harman was at a near death situation a couple of years ago but recently, the company is doing much better. In fact, the share price went from $10 but $35 in the last year and jumped 12% in just a single day last week.

So why is Harman moving manufacturing off shore?

Simple answer: CAPITAL sees no national boundaries; it moves to the places where it can perform the best. Bean counters are not at fault here. If capital is not moved to places where it can perform well, the businesses that imploy capital fail.

Unfortunately, the U.S. has lost its manufacturing base because it is no longer a competitive place to do this. Poor government policies, high taxes, massive deficits, high labor costs, unions, open borders, poor education systems, local taxes, restrictive environmental laws are all factors.

Have a nice day!


And there it is.Utter hogwash... that rationale is as epic fail as the greedy little losers who come up with it. It's greed that knows no national boundaries...



"I knew the people who worked for me... When you know people, you have to behave toward them like human beings." David M. Crowe, Oskar Schindler: The Untold Account of His Life, Wartime Activities, and the True Story Behind The List. Philadelphia: Westview Press, 2004

scott fitlin
02-17-2010, 01:08 PM
Nah, they'll be snapping at each other for another page or 2 -
I don't think they have the critical mass of the old days
so it won't tear down through another 6 pages
like the old rant and rip sessions did ... (thank goodness!)Heather, you may want to recalculate your figures!


:D

SMKSoundPro
02-17-2010, 01:23 PM
Yep, still glad I stayed out of this one!!!

Tim Rinkerman
02-17-2010, 01:28 PM
After WWII, there was a strong push to build better widgets.....till people figured out that if you build the best widget, the people who bought them would never have to buy another one...Modern thinking is sell as many widgets as you can, ignore the quality, just TELL people they are good..who would ever lie about that?
Someplace along the line, "good enough" started being billed as "superior".

4313B
02-17-2010, 01:31 PM
WOW!!!

I am sure am glad i stayed out of this one!!!




Yep, still glad I stayed out of this one!!!And yet... here you are... :rotfl:

I'm glad I stayed out of it too! :yes:

JBLAddict
02-17-2010, 01:36 PM
There actually is more discretionary income today especially with a larger middleclass.

there is not more discretionary income today, there is more discretionary spending of money people don't actually have in the form of credit that they are not actually able to payoff......there might be a few articles on the internet on this topic;)

scott fitlin
02-17-2010, 01:45 PM
I'm glad I stayed out of it too! :yes:And what are you doing? Eating Orville Reddenbachers MICROWAVE Popcorn, watching the hilarity?

:D

grumpy
02-17-2010, 01:48 PM
discretionary spending

more like "indiscretionary"

hjames
02-17-2010, 01:50 PM
Heather, you may want to recalculate your figures!


:D
:blah:
And I had such high hopes it'd close faster ...:blink:

But - this group is REMARKABLY more civil than some of the rant and rip sessions of the past - must be why its still going well ...

Mr. Widget
02-17-2010, 01:52 PM
After WWII, there was a strong push to build better widgets.....My parents included! :applaud:


Hey guys, this thread is turning into another one of "those" threads... please tread lightly.


What I want to know is why no one has brought up the point that most of us here prefer 1970s and early '80s JBLs... not the pre '70s stuff. :blink:


Widget

scott fitlin
02-17-2010, 01:58 PM
My parents included! :applaud:


Hey guys, this thread is turning into another one of "those" threads... please tread lightly.


What I want to know is why no one has brought up the point that most of us here prefer 1970s and early '80s JBLs... not the pre '70s stuff. :blink:


WidgetWell, I for one thank Mr. and Mrs. Widget! They DID make a GOOD Widget, and Widget makes GOOD things to have, that are AVAILABLE right now, be it HT or whatever your doing at the moment!

As for this being one of "THOSE" threads, we are civil. I mean it isn't nasty. Rather humorous, even.

I have always said the PINNACLE of many things, especially analog music, was the late 70,s and early 80,s. They were great times, musically, and gearwise.

But, even as great as I remember these times being, we can, will, and in some cases ARE surpassing even this time period!

hjames
02-17-2010, 02:04 PM
What I want to know is why no one has brought up the point that most of us here prefer 1970s and early '80s JBLs... not the pre '70s stuff. :blink:

Widget

Umm, 'cause we're kind of a Rockin'Roll/Rockin'Soul kind of crowd, thats the era most of us grew up in, and most of these speakers were made for that kind of music?

Yeah, I know I have the world beat and trance stuff, tons of celtic/folk music, the Delos Eargle and klezmer stuff, some pipe organ "tunes", some lovely Ludwig Van and such ... but most of the lot is Rock based ...

wolfshead
02-17-2010, 02:56 PM
After WWII, there was a strong push to build better widgets.....till people figured out that if you build the best widget, the people who bought them would never have to buy another one...Modern thinking is sell as many widgets as you can, ignore the quality, just TELL people they are good..who would ever lie about that?
Someplace along the line, "good enough" started being billed as "superior".
America became a consumer driven society beginning in the 1950's with the explosion of television. Washers and dryers were sold in one's living room. Madison Avenue for the first time had a captive audience.
Everything from toothpaste to cars were sold right there in one's living room.

Than came audio or HiFi not very good at first but why not have a Broadway show in one's living room. First mono and than stereo !
As always there was those who wanted the best , enter component equipment. Most people had a philco or RCA , BUT THERE WAS THOSE WHO WANTED BETTER. JBL , Altec , Western Electric , Marantz , Ampex ,
EV , University , Thorens , Fairfield , etc, etc, etc.

Those who could afford or were hobbist wanted components , the masses
the average joe , was not included. That was the beginning.
Than came those who saw a chance to make a quick buck. The hobbist and those who loved beautiful music was kicked out, Now it was all about profit ! Mass production , outsourcing , Best Buy , and alone with the music keep it cheap but keep it comming.
Michael can't sing , dance or act , but who cares it's all about promotion.
After all who listens anyway.

That is where we are together gentleman. Greed is good !

scott fitlin
02-17-2010, 03:09 PM
Than came audio or HiFi not very good at first but why not have a Broadway show in one's living room. First mono and than stereo !
As always there was those who wanted the best , enter component equipment. Most people had a philco or RCA , BUT THERE WAS THOSE WHO WANTED BETTER. JBL , Altec , Western Electric , Marantz , Ampex ,
EV , University , Thorens , Fairfield , etc, etc, etc.

!Your answering your own debate here.

Then came HiFi, wasn't very good at first! BUT IT DID BECOME GOOD as it grew.

Same thing with todays gear, and technology and medias.

"MOST" people had Philco, NOT Hartsfields or Paragons! The masses of the 1940,s and 1950,s had MASS MARKET JUNK just as we still do today!

"AFFLUENT" members of society, or Die Hard hobbyists had the far more serious gear available to them at the time. but, NOT everyone had....

Todays gear, and todays digital medias have become good, and will get better every day, this is where the R & D is, because this is where the money to be made is.

scott fitlin
02-17-2010, 03:57 PM
America became a consumer driven society beginning in the 1950's with the explosion of television. Washers and dryers were sold in one's living room. Madison Avenue for the first time had a captive audience.
Everything from toothpaste to cars were sold right there in one's living room.

Than came audio or HiFi not very good at first but why not have a Broadway show in one's living room. First mono and than stereo !
As always there was those who wanted the best , enter component equipment. Most people had a philco or RCA , BUT THERE WAS THOSE WHO WANTED BETTER. JBL , Altec , Western Electric , Marantz , Ampex ,
EV , University , Thorens , Fairfield , etc, etc, etc.

Those who could afford or were hobbist wanted components , the masses
the average joe , was not included. That was the beginning.
Than came those who saw a chance to make a quick buck. The hobbist and those who loved beautiful music was kicked out, Now it was all about profit ! Mass production , outsourcing , Best Buy , and alone with the music keep it cheap but keep it comming.
Michael can't sing , dance or act , but who cares it's all about promotion.
After all who listens anyway.

That is where we are together gentleman. Greed is good !All this time I thought mass market consumer capitalism began with Henry Ford's Model T!

Boy was I ever wrong!

louped garouv
02-17-2010, 04:14 PM
Been there, done that.....


A Rolex has similar anachronistic attractions and for a couple hundred-dollars in maintenance each year you can even make them come close to keeping time. But all my bosses with their gold GMT-Masters were always asking me to check my $300 Victorinox Swiss Army watch for the correct time. ....


It's really nothing to argue about, they're all JBLs. It's not like we're here to talk Klipsch! ;)


Ha! that was my first thought when Rolex was mentioned...
overhaul costs.....

and how lousy a timekeeper mine is...

:)

it is pretty though, and all the chicks dug it when i was still hitting the meat markets

andywin
02-17-2010, 04:43 PM
[QUOTE
Were speakers of 3-4 decades ago better than their counterparts of today? No. Are they worth saving and enjoying? Hell yes!

Is an $800 pair of La Scalas better than any $800 pair of speakers sold today? To some people yes, but it is far from being a universal truth. Same is true for $4K Hartsfields, $5K Paragons etc. etc.
[/QUOTE]

I'm in the fortunate position of being able to compare my Array 1400's with BTH K10A's, a pair of vintage speakers over 50 years old that, in their day, were one of the most expensive in the world.

It's surprising how little design has really progressed. There are differences, mainly the extended high frequency capability, the tighter imaging and the greater slam in the bass of the Array's, contrasting with the K10A's 17kHz roll off, wider focussed imaging and bass more akin to that of the Everest 2's I've heard. The differences reflect the era in which each speaker was designed, and fit the requirements of the recordings and media available at the time.

So are the older BTH's not as good as comparable modern ones? Well....IMHO yes they are and so are a lot of other vintage speakers. The best news though is that people are still making great speakers, and for that to happen there must be a market for them. It might be that that it's only in the far east or wherever, but at least it means they are still produced and we haven't slipped to far down the slippery slope,

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/sc0034de41.jpg

Titanium Dome
02-17-2010, 04:56 PM
Since 90% of my daily listening (done at work) is via iPod through Soundcraftsmen amps and L250, 4430, or L7 pairs, I thought I'd test your premise on myself. It lays out like this:

1. Trance/Progressive Trance 16.09 GB
2. Electronic/Electronica/Dance 16.04 GB
3. Pop/Rock/Hard Rock 7.27 GB
4. Alternative 3.88 GB
5. Classical 2.70 GB
6. Jazz 1.95 GB
7. Hip-Hop/Rap 1.03 GB
8. New Age 0.95 GB
9. Reggae 0.83 GB
10. Country 0.54 GB

Maybe that's why I really like the mid 1980s to 2009 JBLs, and especially the stuff from the late 1990s onward. That's when the good stuff really started to drift up from the underground. :banana:

It sounds great, just freakin' great, on Performance Series and Array style gear.


Umm, 'cause we're kind of a Rockin'Roll/Rockin'Soul kind of crowd, thats the era most of us grew up in, and most of these speakers were made for that kind of music?

Yeah, I know I have the world beat and trance stuff, tons of celtic/folk music, the Delos Eargle and klezmer stuff, some pipe organ "tunes", some lovely Ludwig Van and such ... but most of the lot is Rock based ...

scott fitlin
02-17-2010, 05:22 PM
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/sc0034de41.jpg[/IMG]For me though, the VERY thing I once LOVED and CHERISHED my Altec 15in woofers for, are the VERY thing that makes hem sort of NOT as good with todays digital music. The HIGH compliance suspensions were PHENOMENAL sounding when music didn't have the amount of LF it does today, and didn't go nearly as deep as what is present in todays digital recordings. 70,s and 80,s music sounded lovely thru my Altecs, but mushy, soggy and muddy with no real definition and articulation of bass notes playing modern music. When I updated to modern woofers, with modern power handling, I couldn't believe how the bass tightened up, the entire system sounded like MUSIC once again!

Now in todays world, a 20 watt speaker won't do me much good. In a home enviroment, IF you like listening to them, that is fine.

For me, todays good products perform better, for me, with todays music.

Then, there is an issue with serviceability, and parts. What do I do IF something breaks and PARTS ARE NLA?

This does not mean I don't like anything older, just that I found todays stuff does work, used correctly.

Beowulf57
02-17-2010, 05:29 PM
Dianne Krall is destined to achieve CLASSIC status. And she hails from TODAY, not yesterday.

Listen on a really fine "archaic" system and you'll discover it's "Diana." :D

scott fitlin
02-17-2010, 05:32 PM
Listen on a really fine "archaic" system and you'll discover it's "Diana." :DDon't have to! I am READING on a MODERN, VERY MODERN laptop, and YOU showed me!

See, this NEW stuff does work!

:D

Beowulf57
02-17-2010, 06:24 PM
Don't have to! I am READING on a MODERN, VERY MODERN laptop, and YOU showed me!

See, this NEW stuff does work!

:D

That's the spirit! Combine the ancient and the modern: when the roots are good, the tree flourishes and the new buds are healthy.:applaud:

andywin
02-17-2010, 11:36 PM
[QUOTE me though, the VERY thing I once LOVED and CHERISHED my Altec 15in woofers for, are the VERY thing that makes hem sort of NOT as good with todays digital music. The HIGH compliance suspensions were PHENOMENAL sounding when music didn't have the amount of LF it does today, and didn't go nearly as deep as what is present in todays digital recordings. 70,s and 80,s music sounded lovely thru my Altecs, but mushy, soggy and muddy with no real definition and articulation of bass notes playing modern music. When I updated to modern woofers, with modern power handling, I couldn't believe how the bass tightened up, the entire system sounded like MUSIC once again!

Now in todays world, a 20 watt speaker won't do me much good. In a home enviroment, IF you like listening to them, that is fine.

For me, todays good products perform better, for me, with todays music.

Then, there is an issue with serviceability, and parts. What do I do IF something breaks and PARTS ARE NLA?

This does not mean I don't like anything older, just that I found todays stuff does work, used correctly.[/QUOTE]

Who said anything about musshy soggy & muddy bass. The BTH's articulate the lower frequencies very well. They don't have the slam of the Array's but that doesn't make them less musical. I have now heard the new Everest DD6600 and they and the BTH's are very similar in the way they present the lower frequencies.

Power handling is all relative to sensitivity. Having a 600W rated speaker does not make it better than a 20W rated one. For PA or disco use I would agree that vintage speakers are not really suitable nnowadays but for home use they can be as good as a modern speaker.

As for parts availability. I see a lot of threads complaining the lack of availability for fairly recent JBL models. Yes there is the aftermarket and that exists for vintage speakers too. My BTH speakers have the effectively the same cones as WE 4181's and yes they are being reproduced.

scott fitlin
02-18-2010, 02:16 AM
Power handling is a major concern for me. I understand a high sensitivity speaker, with low power handling not really being an issue for home use.

Parts, produced, reproduced, or otherwise, a MAJOR factor to me, and WILL prevent me from buying something, or force me to change from something to something else!

Bass articulation! Sorry, Andy, gotta disagree with you on this! Depends on what you listen to! Playing some of todays music, that has far lower frequency than a speaker was ever designed to really have to cope with, really overtaxes some high compliance suspensions.

In the end, however, it is up to the end user to decide for themselves what is right for them, good or bad, workable or not, etc!

wolfshead
02-18-2010, 06:04 AM
[QUOTE me though, the VERY thing I once LOVED and CHERISHED my Altec 15in woofers for, are the VERY thing that makes hem sort of NOT as good with todays digital music. The HIGH compliance suspensions were PHENOMENAL sounding when music didn't have the amount of LF it does today, and didn't go nearly as deep as what is present in todays digital recordings. 70,s and 80,s music sounded lovely thru my Altecs, but mushy, soggy and muddy with no real definition and articulation of bass notes playing modern music. When I updated to modern woofers, with modern power handling, I couldn't believe how the bass tightened up, the entire system sounded like MUSIC once again!

Now in todays world, a 20 watt speaker won't do me much good. In a home enviroment, IF you like listening to them, that is fine.

For me, todays good products perform better, for me, with todays music.

Then, there is an issue with serviceability, and parts. What do I do IF something breaks and PARTS ARE NLA?

This does not mean I don't like anything older, just that I found todays stuff does work, used correctly.

Who said anything about musshy soggy & muddy bass. The BTH's articulate the lower frequencies very well. They don't have the slam of the Array's but that doesn't make them less musical. I have now heard the new Everest DD6600 and they and the BTH's are very similar in the way they present the lower frequencies.

Power handling is all relative to sensitivity. Having a 600W rated speaker does not make it better than a 20W rated one. For PA or disco use I would agree that vintage speakers are not really suitable nnowadays but for home use they can be as good as a modern speaker.

As for parts availability. I see a lot of threads complaining the lack of availability for fairly recent JBL models. Yes there is the aftermarket and that exists for vintage speakers too. My BTH speakers have the effectively the same cones as WE 4181's and yes they are being reproduced.[/quote]
Your key quote is today's music. Again you are correct older speakers were really not designed for music of today.
Johnny Mathis was asked , what was the difference between the music of his era and today's music. His answer was '" DCIBELS "

The vast majority of pre-1970 audio designed speakers in America has emigrated to Europe and Japan. Europe remains today to this day an innovator in efficent loudspeaker design.
Than there is cost ,the 375 drivers are extremely expensive to produce or purchase.
Speakers today or more room friendly slimmer.Most music today is much
louder therefore there is little need for definition.
For examples the LP has more definition , the CD more dynamic.The Ipod another story.

Is newer better ? not always if so than there is no place for a concert grand Steinway or a Stradivari violin.

Again music is learned and in many cases environmental , generally a
classical recording or a small jazz group will sound better on a pair of Hartsfieds or a Bozak Concert Grand. Those speakers will only expose
the poor quality that is today's music.:)

wolfshead
02-18-2010, 06:22 AM
Since 90% of my daily listening (done at work) is via iPod through Soundcraftsmen amps and L250, 4430, or L7 pairs, I thought I'd test your premise on myself. It lays out like this:

1. Trance/Progressive Trance 16.09 GB
2. Electronic/Electronica/Dance 16.04 GB
3. Pop/Rock/Hard Rock 7.27 GB
4. Alternative 3.88 GB
5. Classical 2.70 GB
6. Jazz 1.95 GB
7. Hip-Hop/Rap 1.03 GB
8. New Age 0.95 GB
9. Reggae 0.83 GB
10. Country 0.54 GB

Maybe that's why I really like the mid 1980s to 2009 JBLs, and especially the stuff from the late 1990s onward. That's when the good stuff really started to drift up from the underground. :banana:

It sounds great, just freakin' great, on Performance Series and Array style gear.
In St.Louis Bob Shaw the local representative for Bozak and one of the audio engineers for the St.Louis symphony , would do a test, live vs. recorded sound. Powell symphony hall has excellent acoustics one of the finest halls in America.

It was almost impossible to tell the difference between live vs recorded sound using Bozak Concert Grands , Marantz 7c's ,Model 9 power amps and first generation tape recordings. The Bozak's were tri-amp. 6 Model 9's were used. From the quietest soloist to the thunder of a full symphony
the music was indistinguishable !

To sum up music today , there is an old Hollywood saying, in Hollywood today the men are short and the women ugly , and their dress ?

scott fitlin
02-18-2010, 06:52 AM
Sorry Wolf, but, music today is THE same as music production has been for quite a long time. Back in the 70,s, we had WELL RECORDED music in every genre, but we also had OVER COMPRESSED ROCK, and DISCO so they could make louder and punchier recordings. No NEW ground covered here! However, you should take some of the vinyl records of YOUR favorite era's, and read them on a scope or RTA your system while this music is playing through your system. And SEE what really is or IS NOT on those older recordings. Many vinyl recordings, were tailored to fit the limitations of the existing vinyl media! Rolled off bass below 65hz on 45,s and rolled off below 45hz on 70,s albums! Rolled off highs as well. Then, they used compression as well, it had to be done! We just couldn't fit complete wide scale dynamics onto the vinyl! Not to mention symphonies. Mixdown of symphonic recordings sometimes required some compression otherwise you, I, we, would never be able to hear that oh so delicate little flute, piccolo, or triangles coming from all the way back there! I have records from wayyy back, too! Benny Goodman, lots of salsa, some jazz, whatever floats my boat! The music was great, but when I listen to many of the pre 70,s recordings, the technology itself is LOADED with flaws. Oh, I have good turntables, arms and cartridges, too, and I KNOW HOW TO PROPERLY SET THEM UP AND BALANCE THEM! Audio is, was, and will probably always be a series of compromises to get to the end product that can be produced that we buy. Matter of fact, the other evening, I was listening to music of MY youth, the 1972 to 1979 era, and I still like much of that music, BUT MAN can I hear the deficiencies in ALL these recordings. Sonically, and this was surprising to me, I found myself quickly returning to todays recordings, they just sound fuller and richer, better high end, low end, SMOOTHER midrange. Some of the old songs on records had some seriously screechy midrange, and not much else, albeit the songs were fun, but THIS IS WHAT IT REALLY WAS! Oh, BTW, I was listening to James Horner's AVATAR soundtrack, which I "DOWNLOADED" and THIS work sounds FANTASTIC to me. HERESY I know it to be, but my ears tell me what they tell me! And this Avatar soundtrack is TODAY, and IS music. My taste and collections of music are WIDE and quite varied. It took a while for digital formats to become usable and GOOD but, we are there. And it will only get better and better...

The 375? JBL makes compression drivers that are still great, however, EXPENSIVE! Materials and technologies are different than what they used 40 years ago, and guess what? Materials and technologies of 40 years ago are different from what they used 70 and 80 years ago! Before permanent magnet drivers using alnico, we had field coil drivers, EVEN more expensive to make, but, some say sound the BEST of them all! There is still a need for drivers that can reproduce accurately, the transient details, and complex waveforms in music. If you want premium goods, you can get them, will you pay the price? But it is available!

As I remember, and THIS I do remember, I lived through THIS era, THE 8 TRACK TAPE, HUGELY popular pre 70,s and early 70,s! And HUGELY portable music format, hugely successful, and really a pretty crappy format, but I remember my uncles 1969 Caddy with the 8 track, listening to Mongo Santamaria, Vanilla Fudge, Cream, Beatles, Stones, and Diana Ross and the Supremes in his car on the way to wherever we were going, MAN that was the stuff of the moment. But it was commercial consumer crap! UP THE LADDER TO THE ROOF!

OTOH, didn't see too many cars with custom reel to reel in them!

:D

scott fitlin
02-18-2010, 07:01 AM
In St.Louis Bob Shaw the local representative for Bozak and one of the audio engineers for the St.Louis symphony , would do a test, live vs. recorded sound. Powell symphony hall has excellent acoustics one of the finest halls in America.

It was almost impossible to tell the difference between live vs recorded sound using Bozak Concert Grands , Marantz 7c's ,Model 9 power amps and first generation tape recordings. The Bozak's were tri-amp. 6 Model 9's were used. From the quietest soloist to the thunder of a full symphony
the music was indistinguishable !

Yeah, I go to the AES convention here in Manhattan, and back in the 80,s JBL would demo their latest using 30ips master tapes and we would just be WOW! You hear that? INCREDIBLE!

Problem is, once WE get home, kind of difficult to get recordings of this LEVEL! No one has masters to sell. Masters on 30ips open reel was something to hear!

I do have some well recorded tunes, that I got as download, that surprisingly would blow your thoughts apart heard on my system. IT DID ME!

I have the John Eargle Everest demo CD, and THIS particular CD opened my ears to what CAN BE DONE, digitally, or otherwise! EVERY TRACK on this CD! WOW! The only problem with it is, IT IS JUST A FEW YEARS OLD! Definitely 21st century! Not pre 70,s!

wolfshead
02-18-2010, 07:50 AM
Sorry Wolf, but, music today is THE same as music production has been for quite a long time. Back in the 70,s, we had WELL RECORDED music in every genre, but we also had OVER COMPRESSED ROCK, and DISCO so they could make louder and punchier recordings. No NEW ground covered here! However, you should take some of the vinyl records of YOUR favorite era's, and read them on a scope or RTA your system while this music is playing through your system. And SEE what really is or IS NOT on those older recordings. Many vinyl recordings, were tailored to fit the limitations of the existing vinyl media! Rolled off bass below 65hz on 45,s and rolled off below 45hz on 70,s albums! Rolled off highs as well. Then, they used compression as well, it had to be done! We just couldn't fit complete wide scale dynamics onto the vinyl! Not to mention symphonies. Mixdown of symphonic recordings sometimes required some compression otherwise you, I, we, would never be able to hear that oh so delicate little flute, piccolo, or triangles coming from all the way back there! I have records from wayyy back, too! Benny Goodman, lots of salsa, some jazz, whatever floats my boat! The music was great, but when I listen to many of the pre 70,s recordings, the technology itself is LOADED with flaws. Oh, I have good turntables, arms and cartridges, too, and I KNOW HOW TO PROPERLY SET THEM UP AND BALANCE THEM! Audio is, was, and will probably always be a series of compromises to get to the end product that can be produced that we buy. Matter of fact, the other evening, I was listening to music of MY youth, the 1972 to 1979 era, and I still like much of that music, BUT MAN can I hear the deficiencies in ALL these recordings. Sonically, and this was surprising to me, I found myself quickly returning to todays recordings, they just sound fuller and richer, better high end, low end, SMOOTHER midrange. Some of the old songs on records had some seriously screechy midrange, and not much else, albeit the songs were fun, but THIS IS WHAT IT REALLY WAS! Oh, BTW, I was listening to James Horner's AVATAR soundtrack, which I "DOWNLOADED" and THIS work sounds FANTASTIC to me. HERESY I know it to be, but my ears tell me what they tell me! And this Avatar soundtrack is TODAY, and IS music. My taste and collections of music are WIDE and quite varied. It took a while for digital formats to become usable and GOOD but, we are there. And it will only get better and better...

The 375? JBL makes compression drivers that are still great, however, EXPENSIVE! Materials and technologies are different than what they used 40 years ago, and guess what? Materials and technologies of 40 years ago are different from what they used 70 and 80 years ago! Before permanent magnet drivers using alnico, we had field coil drivers, EVEN more expensive to make, but, some say sound the BEST of them all! There is still a need for drivers that can reproduce accurately, the transient details, and complex waveforms in music. If you want premium goods, you can get them, will you pay the price? But it is available!

As I remember, and THIS I do remember, I lived through THIS era, THE 8 TRACK TAPE, HUGELY popular pre 70,s and early 70,s! And HUGELY portable music format, hugely successful, and really a pretty crappy format, but I remember my uncles 1969 Caddy with the 8 track, listening to Mongo Santamaria, Vanilla Fudge, Cream, Beatles, Stones, and Diana Ross and the Supremes in his car on the way to wherever we were going, MAN that was the stuff of the moment. But it was commercial consumer crap! UP THE LADDER TO THE ROOF!

OTOH, didn't see too many cars with custom reel to reel in them!

:D
8 Track tapes was junk than as are Ipods today. Cadillac's were junk as was in my opinon Stones , Diana Ross , Santamaria, Cream etc.
The cassette replaced 8 track which was an improvement. Materials were cheaper than as was technology.

One could buy an excellent audio JBL speaker system for about $400.00.
Affordable. Top of the line pre-amps ranged around $250.00.

I posted earlier that cost , cost is the major reason audio equipment is either for the wealthy or the hobbist . Audio equipment is manufactured by Multi-transnational corporations today. Pre-1970's it was produced by
music lovers , engineer hobbist.
You think the CEO of Sony cares about music or audio as did Saul Marantz or Avery Fisher ?

Dress , music , art , entertainment today is based on greed, and ignorance. Greed is good but ignorance is unexceptable.
Elvis proved that any one and anything can be successful with the right kind of promotion. Michael Jackson went beyond Elvis as having little talent
but a gimmic , a grown man sounding like a 14 year old wearing sailors clothing , and bleaching his skin. that's new ! Rappers glorifing gangsters
and women performers half cloth on the stage and no women actress today can get a job in Hollywood today unless she takes her cloths off !
The hell with her ability to act.

That sirs is progress? new? I have a XM reciever connected to my audio system not bad , but it pales when compared to a Marantz 10B producing analog FM music

My counterpoint.

scott fitlin
02-18-2010, 08:02 AM
My point is THAT they have been making MASS MARKET CRAP, and HIGH END PREMIUM PRODUCTS as long as we have been making anything to sell!

Anyway, I am OFF to WORK, I'll be back later this evening to banter some more!

IT IS WHAT IT IS! AND WHAT IT IS, IS WHAT IT ALWAYS WAS! MAKIN MONEY! Your generation had just as much consumer crap as we do today. It was just different consumer crap, but crap is still crap!

Oh, one more! Rappers GLORIFYING GANGSTERS! Yeah, and Hollywood and James Cagney, Edward G. Robinson, and Bogie DIDN'T glorify GANGSTERISM? Yeah, ok!

wolfshead
02-18-2010, 12:25 PM
My point is THAT they have been making MASS MARKET CRAP, and HIGH END PREMIUM PRODUCTS as long as we have been making anything to sell!

Anyway, I am OFF to WORK, I'll be back later this evening to banter some more!

IT IS WHAT IT IS! AND WHAT IT IS, IS WHAT IT ALWAYS WAS! MAKIN MONEY! Your generation had just as much consumer crap as we do today. It was just different consumer crap, but crap is still crap!

Oh, one more! Rappers GLORIFYING GANGSTERS! Yeah, and Hollywood and James Cagney, Edward G. Robinson, and Bogie DIDN'T glorify GANGSTERISM? Yeah, ok!
Hollywood's " Code of decency" prevented the glorification of the gangster.
The stars you named played gansters but they always met a violent ending.

The difference is the mass marking of "crap" and the exceptance of crap.
Very different. The hard truth is that with all the advances in technology many of todays young people have either not been exposed to quality or
lack interest. Parenting plays a major role.

Why is it that the Japanese and the Chinese have a great appreciation for quality while most Americans today except "crap" as you coined it.
Finally since the 1960's we have seen a decline in music , art , dress ,
etc, etc. in America alone with values. It all began in the 1950's.
Little did we know than that Elvis was only the beginning , or did we.
I respect yours and others opinion on these subjects. We can agree to disgree. An American tradition.:)

SEAWOLF97
02-18-2010, 12:44 PM
cant believe that this crapfest has lasted 124 posts....geeze talk about kicking a dead horse....:barf:



The difference is the mass marking of "crap" and the exceptance of crap.
Why is it that the Japanese and the Chinese have a great appreciation for quality while most Americans today except "crap" as you coined it.


I hate to tell you, wolfshead...but when you repeatedly use incorrect or misspelled words, it tends to devalue your whole argument. There is an excellent free hot spell checker recommended on one of the forum threads that might help ...iespell.

http://www.iespell.com/

though that won't help you get the difference between exceptance/acceptance....except/accept.

scott fitlin
02-18-2010, 01:10 PM
Hollywood's " Code of decency" prevented the glorification of the gangster.
The stars you named played gansters but they always met a violent ending.

The difference is the mass marking of "crap" and the exceptance of crap.
Very different. The hard truth is that with all the advances in technology many of todays young people have either not been exposed to quality or
lack interest. Parenting plays a major role.

Why is it that the Japanese and the Chinese have a great appreciation for quality while most Americans today except "crap" as you coined it.
Finally since the 1960's we have seen a decline in music , art , dress ,
etc, etc. in America alone with values. It all began in the 1950's.
Little did we know than that Elvis was only the beginning , or did we.
I respect yours and others opinion on these subjects. We can agree to disgree. An American tradition.:)On my lunch hour now!

Excuse me, but ALL gangster movies portrayed the criminals as guys living LARGE! They drove the best cars, they went to the best joints, wore fancy clothes, and had the best looking women, and had lots of money until they either die or go to prison. Kind of HOW IT REALLY IS, THOUGH! Sadly, so many DO want the FAST life, though. Today, though, VIOLENT crime is not as fashionable, BUT White Collar crime is! THINK MADOFF, here! Or how about IDENTITY THEFT via online services?

Hollywood and nudity? Hollywood has been selling wet dreams forever! Because sex sells. Yes, it is more unabashed today, BUT, umm, IF they had a full frontal nudity shot of Marilyn Monroe, in PANAVISION, would you have gotten up and left the theater? I feel your pain here, brother, but there isn't anything I can do as it is already in the past. :coolness:

I'll tell you this about children. THEY know what is around, what is HOT and WHAT they WANT! You can preach to a 12 year old all you want about this or that, then they will look at you and say I WANT AN IPOD! THEY ( kids ) tell US what is hot in their world. Don't underestimate the intelligence of young people.

And it isn't parents that teach children to appreciate crap, either. OUR corporate conglomerates do that! EVEN OUR BELOVED JBL MAKES COMPUTER and PLASTIC speakers, and disposable items.

The ONE thing I feel you fail to mention is WHAT was 2 or 3 hundred bucks in 1954? That was OUTTASIGHT for many! That was what 5 grand is now. The thing is we seem to be having MORE expensive items than I remember having as a child. I was taught work and save, and when you have saved up enough, THEN you go out and buy it! TODAY we LIVE ON CREDIT! And EVERY STORE AND EVERY CORPORATION OFFERS FINANCING and CREDIT! Parents aren't giving their kids the credit, the CORPORATIONS are! YOU WORK, U DRIVE! Get a NEW car today! NO MONEY DOWN, FOR QUALIFIED APPLICANTS!

I have been in homes that have severely expensive HT systems, that HAVE money, but never spent BIG bucks on premium 2 channel audio. Most of my parents friends had no interest in high end audio, BUT TOP HT they had to have! And my folks are from your era, had no interest in BIG expensive audio. BIG TV she loves, GREAT kitchen SHE MUST HAVE, big speakers, get out. Dad likes audio, but not like me. And, dad has to go along with mom to an extent, otherwise....

Gotta finish work now, be back later!

:D

scott fitlin
02-18-2010, 01:25 PM
cant believe that this crapfest has lasted 124 posts....geeze talk about kicking a dead horse....:barf:

We know the horse is dead. The horse died days ago, I'm just helping him dig a hole deep enough to bury it!

:dont-know

JBLAddict
02-18-2010, 01:25 PM
Elvis proved that any one and anything can be successful with the right kind of promotion.

clearly you've never seen the artistry of Blue Hawaii :D

JBLAddict
02-18-2010, 01:27 PM
Since 90% of my daily listening (done at work) is via iPod through Soundcraftsmen amps and L250, 4430, or L7 pairs, I thought I'd test your premise on myself. It lays out like this:

1. Trance/Progressive Trance 16.09 GB
2. Electronic/Electronica/Dance 16.04 GB
3. Pop/Rock/Hard Rock 7.27 GB
4. Alternative 3.88 GB
5. Classical 2.70 GB
6. Jazz 1.95 GB
7. Hip-Hop/Rap 1.03 GB
8. New Age 0.95 GB
9. Reggae 0.83 GB
10. Country 0.54 GB

Maybe that's why I really like the mid 1980s to 2009 JBLs, and especially the stuff from the late 1990s onward. That's when the good stuff really started to drift up from the underground. :banana:

It sounds great, just freakin' great, on Performance Series and Array style gear.


I can only conclude that you work at a dance club? ;)

wolfshead
02-18-2010, 01:33 PM
cant believe that this crapfest has lasted 124 posts....geeze talk about kicking a dead horse....:barf:




I hate to tell you, wolfshead...but when you repeatedly use incorrect or misspelled words, it tends to devalue your whole argument. There is an excellent free hot spell checker recommended on one of the forum threads that might help ...iespell.

http://www.iespell.com/

though that won't help you get the difference between exceptance/acceptance....except/accept.
I may may miss-pell words but I keep to the topic. It appears you have no opinions on this topic , so why read it , Where is your "argument "
What are your opinions ? do you have any ?
I might add this is a discussion , not an argument ! Try reading the Thread

scott fitlin
02-18-2010, 01:40 PM
I can only conclude that you work at a dance club? ;)He isn't the only one! :dj-party:

But dance music isn't the only thing I listen to either. It is energetic, and cool sounding, however!

So is Tito Puente, or El Gran Combo, or Hector Lavoe.

:banana:

louped garouv
02-18-2010, 01:49 PM
I think TiDome does Non-Profit work....

i would be suprised to see L7s, L250, or 4430 units in a club...
although i am sure it's been done.....

i worked in clubland for awhile too, & still listen to A LOT of new club music...


in the heart of the young, or young at heart.... i suppose


Dubstep and Techno are what the kids i know are all into at the moment....

I still like some early breakbeats and freestyle too :)

as well as dixieland jazz, blues, classical, zydeco, cajun, rock, jam...
and may other genres...

SEAWOLF97
02-18-2010, 01:55 PM
I may may miss-pell words but I keep to the topic.

Ummm, actually, No.

the topic is "Why is it that pre 1970 speakers so prized today ? "

not Sinatra or Elvis or why modern life stinks or gangsters or Hollywood decency.or Cadillac or greed....etc. etc..etc

If you think your Jed Clampet style suits the "discussion" , well by doggies...go fer it !!


why read it .... Try reading the Thread

gee..I was reading the thread to find out why is it that pre 1970 speakers so prized today ?


It appears you have no opinions on this topic , so why read it , Where is your "argument "

where ??? I did post a couple here until I saw the direction it was headed and then retracted them, as I'm sure that others would like to do. :barf:

hjames
02-18-2010, 02:39 PM
I may may miss-pell words but I keep to the topic.

What, you mean the topic: "Why is it that pre 1970 speakers so prized today?"

Gads - if you are in such praise of the Golden days, you have to understand that what you typed in
to start this was not even good ENGLISH!! So much for learning the classics, eh Dagwood?

I think you meant for the topic to be was:
"Why is it that pre 1970 speakers ARE so prized today?"

but you started off on the wrong foot and continued kicking none-the-less ...

Ok, let me drop back to the shadows and continue to watch ...
hilarity ensues!

Titanium Dome
02-18-2010, 02:54 PM
So much entertainment value, so little time to enjoy it. :D

Yes, I do inner city gang prevention work and run a non-profit. Yet despite that, somehow I can find a way to own really fine, current JBL products, despite constant references to the good JBLs costing too much, being too hard to find, and not being significantly better. And I get them from authorized dealers, not out of the back of some fence's garage or from the grey market.

So, all the arguments about things costing too much or being too hard to find or not as good as the past are just pointless virtual hot air. Heck, if a poor non-profit employee can find, purchase, and enjoy these products, then anyone can. At least, anyone who wants the best can.

We have several examples of guys here who've found ways to get the Performance Series and Array Series. I don't think anyone had to declare bankruptcy to do it. Several have picked up Studio L Series, too, as well as LSR and more. All of this gear is better in multiple ways than anything from before the 70s.

Heck lots of stuff from the 90s is better, as is plenty of 80s era and 70s era product.

I think the 1970's gear under consideration here is prized by two groups:

1. Vintage aficionados, whose love of these units is genuine and deep.
2. Cheapskate blowhards who don't have the commitment to get the best that's available so they try to puff up their shallow devotion to the brand by buying old scrap metal and claiming it's a pile of gold.
:rotfl: :flamer: :rotfl:

Is this enough to get this thread locked? :flamed:

If not, carry on. :drive:

scott fitlin
02-18-2010, 03:10 PM
So much entertainment value, so little time to enjoy it. :D

Yes, I do inner city gang prevention work and run a non-profit. Yet despite that, somehow I can find a way to own really fine, current JBL products, despite constant references to the good JBLs costing too much, being too hard to find, and not being significantly better. And I get them from authorized dealers, not out of the back of some fence's garage or from the grey market.

So, all the arguments about things costing too much or being too hard to find or not as good as the past are just pointless virtual hot air. Heck, if a poor non-profit employee can find, purchase, and enjoy these products, then anyone can. At least, anyone who wants the best can.

We have several examples of guys here who've found ways to get the Performance Series and Array Series. I don't think anyone had to declare bankruptcy to do it. Several have picked up Studio L Series, too, as well as LSR and more. All of this gear is better in multiple ways than anything from before the 70s.

Heck lots of stuff from the 90s is better, as is plenty of 80s era and 70s era product.

I think the 1970's gear under consideration here is prized by two groups:

1. Vintage aficionados, whose love of these units is genuine and deep.
2. Cheapskate blowhards who don't have the commitment to get the best that's available so they try to puff up their shallow devotion to the brand by buying old scrap metal and claiming it's a pile of gold.
:rotfl: :flamer: :rotfl:

Is this enough to get this thread locked? :flamed:

If not, carry on. :drive:Why lock the thread? We have been VERY civilized about the entire matter. You speak what you believe to be the truth, and in most ways I agree with you, and I also speak my own point of view.

Truth is, IF one wants to have something and IT IS IMPORTANT to them, they find ways of obtaining these things.

Heck, in todays PREMIUM cars, even they are now accessible to iPod. They have docking and plug in ports for iPod. You can program YOUR music in YOUR ride YOUR way! The iPod is LESS if not completely immune to vibration and bumps, unlike CD players for automobiles, and I do not have to hear hogwash radio programming, or 15 minutes of commercials to 2 minutes of music.

I loved what we once had. But these days I also love what we have now, and what we will be having tomorrow!

And not only that, I had a ball in this thread. Most fun online I have had in a long time. And all this with no flaming.

Nothing wrong here IMHO, :bouncy:

wolfshead
02-18-2010, 07:24 PM
What, you mean the topic: "Why is it that pre 1970 speakers so prized today?"

Gads - if you are in such praise of the Golden days, you have to understand that what you typed in
to start this was not even good ENGLISH!! So much for learning the classics, eh Dagwood?

I think you meant for the topic to be was:
"Why is it that pre 1970 speakers ARE so prized today?"

but you started off on the wrong foot and continued kicking none-the-less ...

Ok, let me drop back to the shadows and continue to watch ...
hilarity ensues!
You are still off topic ! If you don't find this thread interesting enough to discuss the topic , move on. There many other topics on this site that may interest.

BMWCCA
02-18-2010, 07:38 PM
8 Track tapes was junk than as are Ipods today.I don't get it: Everything you say in this thread is off-topic from your subject. And yet you blather on about how others are off-topic? URNUTZ!

And why blame the ills of the music world on the iPod? That's like blaming your turntable for a poor LP pressing. The iPod is an amazing music reproduction tool that, when loaded with material transferred at the correct rate (loss-less), reproduces music with fidelity equal to many bulky systems today. Try hooking one up through your amp and speakers. You might be surprised!

Other than that, I'm going to make a wild guess that you and Maron are actually one-and-the-same person. :wtf:

Maron Horonzakz
02-18-2010, 07:38 PM
Dont mind grandma,,She,s out on her day pass...

Maron Horonzakz
02-18-2010, 07:40 PM
BMW,,,That is a Wild guess..

scott fitlin
02-18-2010, 07:49 PM
BMW,,,That is a Wild guess..But is it true?

:rotfl:

scott fitlin
02-18-2010, 07:54 PM
And why blame the ills of the music world on the iPod? That's like blaming your turntable for a poor LP pressing. The iPod is an amazing music reproduction tool that, when loaded with material transferred at the correct rate (loss-less), reproduces music with fidelity equal to many bulky systems today. Try hooking one up through your amp and speakers. You might be surprised!

Thank you.

Seriously, I was listening to a 45 pressing of Brother Louie-Stories, the other evening, one of my fav tunes of that period, man the song is as good as ever. But the 45 pressing lacks SO MUCH in terms of fidelity, and has like NO BASS! And what highs?

The list of this music goes on and on......

Then, upon returning to NOW, it is IMMEDIATELY apparent that we have surpassed most of these eras, in every way!

Maron Horonzakz
02-18-2010, 07:56 PM
Ive been good today,,i hav,nt bashed anyone. Yet

scott fitlin
02-18-2010, 07:57 PM
Ive been good today,,i hav,nt bashed anyone. YetYes u have!

You get an extra half hour of listening to the JBL,s tonight for such exemplary behavior! :rotfl:

Maron Horonzakz
02-18-2010, 07:59 PM
Scott,,, Was that 45 cut by the same person,, probably not. I,m assuming the origional was 33 1/3

scott fitlin
02-18-2010, 08:03 PM
Scott,,, Was that 45 cut by the same person,, probably not.What do you mean? Same person who cut the album?

I don't know, I don't have the album here, but I can find out.

But Maron, I'm sure your more than familiar with music of this period, and 45,s and albums. They didn't always have the finest fidelity, at all.

Maron Horonzakz
02-18-2010, 08:09 PM
Not all the time..Some lose a fullness... Ive noticed that on 45,s,,, in fact the old 45 of the late 50,s you know the old big donut hole 45,s sounded richer

scott fitlin
02-18-2010, 08:17 PM
Not all the time..Some lose a fullness... Ive noticed that on 45,s,,, in fact the old 45 of the late 50,s you know the old big donut hole 45,s sounded richerI have some stuff sounds better than others, from EVERY period, no doubt.

I have recordings from the 50,s that sound quite good. I have many that sound THIN too!

My late 60,s and early to mid 70,s 45,s are all donut hole 7in records.

And my mother still has all her 78,s from the 50,s as well. These I don't know how to make sound proper.

Maron Horonzakz
02-18-2010, 08:21 PM
Do you remember back in the late 50,s,,RCA released A special Glenn Miller set with leather cover???? It was released in 33 1/3 ande 45 i have both the 45 ,s sounded better,, But later that year They also sent the tapes to europe and were pressed by EMI ,,HMV on 33 1/3 the albumn cover was then done in allegater,,That one was better than US pressings.. go figure.

Maron Horonzakz
02-18-2010, 08:27 PM
Also BELEFONTE at Carnege Hall great two LP albimn,33 1/3,,, Pressing on 45 sounded different,, and i also have that one pressed in Germany,,Again different..

scott fitlin
02-18-2010, 08:28 PM
Do you remember back in the late 50,s,,RCA released A special Glenn Miller set with leather cover???? It was released in 33 1/3 ande 45 i have both the 45 ,s sounded better,, But later that year They also sent the tapes to europe and were pressed by EMI ,,HMV on 33 1/3 the albumn cover was then done in allegater,,That one was better than US pressings.. go figure.I was born in 1962, and that Glenn Miller set is one I am not familiar with.

As far as European pressings, I can understand what your saying. In the late 70,s, much of the disco music, was actually European, that was first in our specialty record shops on the import labels, then picked up, pressed and put out by American labels. Pretty much always, the European pressings were superior.

By the late 70,s, they were producing a lot of 45rpm 12in single pressings, and these usually sounded superior to 33 1/3rpm too.

With reel to reel tape, the higher the speed always resulted in better sound, so it never surprised me with vinyl.

Some of the BEST recordings I have ever heard in my life are in fact 30ips open reel tapes.

Maron Horonzakz
02-18-2010, 08:36 PM
Read last post before yours,,,On Belefonte at Carnege Hall,,,The German pressing was better,,,BUT last year i got a GERMAN CD Digital on that concert,, They bucherd it sonically.

Maron Horonzakz
02-18-2010, 08:39 PM
I always recorded at 15 ips,,But 30 ips had quieter back ground no hiss,,

scott fitlin
02-18-2010, 08:42 PM
Read last post before yours,,,On Belefonte at Carnege Hall,,,The German pressing was better,,,BUT last year i got a GERMAN CD Digital on that concert,, They bucherd it sonically.That would be the fault of the mastering engineer doing the digital transfer, or lack of, I suppose.

And then again, it mirrors what I always say about having to remaster the older analog music for digital. If they don't, or don't do it well, the music doesn't translate into the digital realm as it had in the analog domain!

I have a 33 rpm album of John Williams and the Boston Pops, on Deutsch Gramophone vinyl, doing Saints Go Marching In, and Stagecoach, and others, sounds excellent on the vinyl, then I bought same album on CD, and :barf:

scott fitlin
02-18-2010, 08:48 PM
I always recorded at 15 ips,,But 30 ips had quieter back ground no hiss,,Back in the days, when record labels sent DJ,s at hot clubs advance acetates or open reel copies of pre release music, we always got 15ips reels. These sounded really good. Without a doubt, the tape ALWAYS sounded better than the final consumer release vinyl. Acetates sounded really good for the first few plays, too. But acetates would wear out rather quickly.

It was usually in a studio, or at a big audio show I got to hear 30ips tape, and even 2in multi track tape.

Maron Horonzakz
02-18-2010, 08:50 PM
Before i retired the last few recordings for the St Louis Philharmonic,, I was recording them in Analog and digital (same time),, same spot with mics,, for compairison.. I liked the analog tapes better,,

scott fitlin
02-18-2010, 08:54 PM
Before i retired the last few recordings for the St Louis Philharmonic,, I was recording them in Analog and digital (same time),, same spot with mics,, for compairison.. I liked the analog tapes better,,Yeah, that was a huge argument for a long time. But, that also was digital then, and digital now has advanced.

And even today, many people in the recording industry still miss tape. Although, there has been somewhat of a resurgence of tape for studio use, in the past couple of years.

Maron Horonzakz
02-18-2010, 08:55 PM
SEAWOLF ,,, Your spelling is shit too.. But if you cand understand my Russion than its ligit..

SEAWOLF97
02-18-2010, 08:55 PM
As far as European pressings, I can understand what your saying.

Have picked up German pressings of the Eagles and Rare Earth , in addition to the US copies that I have....the German ones are high gloss, very thick jackets and feel like 200g vinyls. They certainly put more care in production. Were they comparatively more expensive there ?


SEAWOLF ,,, Your spelling is shit too..

Please show examples, otherwise.......STFU

Maron Horonzakz
02-18-2010, 08:58 PM
Scott,,,Yes the new Digital is wayyyyy better,, Editing is easier too.

Maron Horonzakz
02-18-2010, 09:01 PM
Sea Wolf.. If i can read your english.. I can under stand you.. I still speak with a heavy accent,,

scott fitlin
02-18-2010, 09:02 PM
Have picked up German pressings of the Eagles and Rare Earth , in addition to the US copies that I have....the German ones are high gloss, very thick jackets and feel like 200g vinyls. They certainly put more care in production. Were they comparatively more expensive there ?My music was from all over, Germany, Belgium, Italy, England, France, etc!

Import vinyl in NY always cost more than domestic, and I was an IMPORT HOUND! First off, imports generally meant you had the music anywhere from 1 to 6 months before an American label picked it up and put it out. So, I was always hunting down new and unknown material to play, in search of finding TOMORROWS hits.

The German pressings were usually the most expensive imports as well. These usually ran a dollar more than every other European import. Sonically they ran the gamut too. Some were incredibly good, some were sterile sounding. One particular and hard to find German import was Bucks Fizz-I Hear talk, about 1984, the German RCA 12in was great!

scott fitlin
02-18-2010, 09:08 PM
Scott,,,Yes the new Digital is wayyyyy better,, Editing is easier too.Maron, this winter, I heard digital recording done using a Metric Halo ULN-8 soundcard, YO, this is the SHIT! The soundcard makes a WORLD of difference, and Metric Halo is AWESOME SOUNDING!

For the first time, I heard something that I DID NOT analyze as being digital or analog. IT JUST SOUNDED GREAT!

Maron Horonzakz
02-18-2010, 09:16 PM
Metric Halo ULN 8,,, Ive read a little about it,,not heard it,,, St louis is a cow town and will take some time to get here,,

scott fitlin
02-18-2010, 09:31 PM
Metric Halo ULN 8,,, Ive read a little about it,,not heard it,,, St louis is a cow town and will take some time to get here,,The price of this thing is WHOA! But, Maron, I say the sound is all that!

Now in my realm, which is end user playback, I use a DVS system and laptop with an interface to DJ files like records, and have CD turntables with midi encoded discs to control the music. This system I currently use is called Serato. It's good, because it sounds good, it is VERY stable, and SO SIMPLE to hook up and use. But now, i'm switching to Native Instruments Traktor Scratch Pro.

Traktors Audio 8 soundcard has better DAC,s than Serato, is 24/96 capable, and has GREAT timecode, and the timecode makes a great difference to subjective audio quality. Set up, and use are not as simple as Serato, BUT man, the sound is great. It has the kind of sound quality that will really make you ask "ARE YOU REALLY PLAYING A DIGITAL FILE"? Put another way, traktor has a superior low mid response, than what I am currently using. Native instruments says the naturalness of traktors sound is because of their TOP QUALITY DAC,s and tight and superior timecode. I say, HEY, THIS SOUNDS VERY GOOD, VERY MUCH THE SAME AS ANALOG DID!

I know all the things I have openly mouthed off about over the years. But, what can I say now? Digital media is getting VERY GOOD! And to my ears, the better it gets, the more indiscernible it becomes from analog! However, the best digital these days, has frequency response that openly surpasses what we could fit on to a vinyl recording, most definitely audible in the top octaves and lower regions. And, now, with 24 bit DVS becoming available, and accepted, things like depth in the midrange, lightning transient attack, dimensionality, and natural vocal range sounds, once the hallmarks of analog music, are now reaching the level that we became so enamored of analog with, and will shortly surpass and eclipse that, too.

So, right here, this is where some of todays premium speaker designs and components will surpass the older gear. To really reproduce the wider frequency response, the higher levels of transients, is where the better thermal compression characteristics and power handling, and better, and cleaner frequency response of TODAYS premium speaker components, amplifiers, and other associated electronics come into play!

BMWCCA
02-18-2010, 09:42 PM
Before i retired the last few recordings for the St Louis Philharmonic,,Did you ever record their Sunday Afternoon concert series back in the '60s? I have particular affection for one my grandmother took me too where the "guest soloist" was B.B. King. For decades I've longed to hear that string section as it came in right after B.B. sang "The thrill is gone.." zoom, zoom...

A "thrill" I've never been able to recreate in any King recording I've heard since. We all want to recreate that true live sound. I wonder if any recording can match the memory of being there?

And then there's the memory of a revered woman sharing that experience with me. She, too, was a one-of-a-kind. You don't often hear names like those from the old days anymore. Alvera was as unique as her name.

:offtopic:

Maron Horonzakz
02-18-2010, 09:49 PM
a friend of mine (passed away) Hung around with Paul Klipsch,,A real stickler for accurate fidelity,, He would be shocked at what is happening today,,,I too look over my shoulder at the dark shadows creeping in,,,But i cant let loose of the new technoligy coming in,,,JBL is still in the forefront on High tech speaker design,,HF Drivers in the Everest II ,,, plus the expense in that woofer amazes me,,Pushing the envelope,, We,v come along way since Edison,,

SEAWOLF97
02-18-2010, 09:59 PM
SEAWOLF ,,, Your spelling is shit too.. .



Please show examples, otherwise......STFU


Sea Wolf.. If i can read your english.. I can under stand you..

unsubstantiated statements suit you well. :barf:

scott fitlin
02-18-2010, 10:09 PM
a friend of mine (passed away) Hung around with Paul Klipsch,,A real stickler for accurate fidelity,, He would be shocked at what is happening today,,,I too look over my sholder at the dark shadows creeping in,,,But i cant let loose of the new technoligy coming in,,,JBL is still in the forefront on High tech speaker design,,HF Drivers in the Everest II ,,, plus the expense in that woofer amazes me,,Pushing the envelope,, We,v come along way since Edison,,And you know what? I agree, JBL is still very much at the forefront of things. To my ears, when it comes to 18,s, compression drivers and things, I still prefer JBL to others, as they still have the JBL sound. JBL 2in compression drivers have that dynamic snap, yet smoothness in the HF, that I like.

To me, a 2450J, is today, as the 2441 was back then. Then I hear other systems using other brands, I don't know! Missing this, too much of that! JBL is still JBL, and MODERN JBL works with todays music, SPECTACULARLY WELL.

I know my application is somewhat different than most others here, and is pro, however, it is still relevant, as WHAT I am doing now, will not work nearly as well, with my older, original speakers, even though I do still use some of my older HF drivers. But yesterdays woofers, are NOT always up to the demands I have today. And, the ease at which my system does this is JAWDROPPING!

SMKSoundPro
02-18-2010, 10:26 PM
OH MY GOD, LISA!!!

They're still at it!!!!!:blah::blah::blah::blah::blah::blah::blah:

I am SO glad I still stayed out of this one!!!!!!!


ScottyK.

Maron Horonzakz
02-18-2010, 10:31 PM
SMKS,,,Go to bed

Maron Horonzakz
02-18-2010, 10:34 PM
ssssssssssEAwolf.... Watch it

scott fitlin
02-18-2010, 10:36 PM
OH MY GOD, LISA!!!

They're still at it!!!!!:blah::blah::blah::blah::blah::blah::blah:

I am SO glad I still stayed out of this one!!!!!!!


ScottyK.CRITICAL MASS!

We still have it, and we are talking audio, and we got more stamina than 4 athletic 20 year olds when it comes to JBL Audio!

12 pages and still climbing!

:thmbsup:

Maron Horonzakz
02-18-2010, 10:41 PM
BMW,,, I came into the recording frey at the Symphony,,in 1970,,, Bob Shaw and Roy were at the helm before that,,, Politics at that time were to find more money for the orchestra,,,,

speakerdave
02-18-2010, 11:44 PM
And there it is.

Just like the Emporer Joseph in the movie Amadeus? Really?

wolfshead
02-19-2010, 05:49 AM
I don't get it: Everything you say in this thread is off-topic from your subject. And yet you blather on about how others are off-topic? URNUTZ!

And why blame the ills of the music world on the iPod? That's like blaming your turntable for a poor LP pressing. The iPod is an amazing music reproduction tool that, when loaded with material transferred at the correct rate (loss-less), reproduces music with fidelity equal to many bulky systems today. Try hooking one up through your amp and speakers. You might be surprised!

Other than that, I'm going to make a wild guess that you and Maron are actually one-and-the-same person. :wtf:
The topic is music and audio. Not his analysis of my spelling , also if he doesn't wish to discuss the topic than move onto another topic. There are many different topics on this website.

As for as Ipod's ,turntables did not produce music, turntables turned the
Lp on it's platter. Ipod's are a musical source. In the old days a system was only as good as it's weakest link. The Ipod is a weak link in my opinion.

Fred Sanford
02-19-2010, 06:12 AM
As for as Ipod's ,turntables did not produce music, turntables turned the
Lp on it's platter. Ipod's are a musical source. In the old days a system was only as good as it's weakest link. The Ipod is a weak link in my opinion.

You lost me on that one...what's your logic for that statement? The turntable does its best to reproduce what's spinning on the platter (via tone arm/cartridge/stylus/etc., plus the phono preamp later in the chain), and the iPod (or another brand of player) converts the digital file inside into an analog output. There are actually far more variables I can think of that would make a turntable play a perfectly good record poorly than there are ways for an iPod to play a perfectly good digital file poorly.

If both turntable and iPod are functioning correctly, your result is as good as your input- a good-sounding recording will sound good. And, it's far cheaper and much easier to get an iPod to play a recording cleanly than it is to buy & set up a turntable.

je

Beowulf57
02-19-2010, 07:26 AM
Ranking in audio quality on my system all using the best source material possible:

1. Linn LP12/Lingo/Ittok LVIII/Shure V15 Type VMR/NYAL Upgraded/Modified Super It

2. Linn Unidisk SC

3. ipod

The ipod doesn't come even close...but then neither does its price!!!;)

wolfshead
02-19-2010, 08:46 AM
You lost me on that one...what's your logic for that statement? The turntable does its best to reproduce what's spinning on the platter (via tone arm/cartridge/stylus/etc., plus the phono preamp later in the chain), and the iPod (or another brand of player) converts the digital file inside into an analog output. There are actually far more variables I can think of that would make a turntable play a perfectly good record poorly than there are ways for an iPod to play a perfectly good digital file poorly.

If both turntable and iPod are functioning correctly, your result is as good as your input- a good-sounding recording will sound good. And, it's far cheaper and much easier to get an iPod to play a recording cleanly than it is to buy & set up a turntable.

je
An Ipod is a musical source , Example a FM tuner recieves the signal from a source. it than relays that signal to the preamp. The better the tuner the better the signal received , in this case audio. An Ipod does the same.

The Marantz tuner was considered to be the finest FM tuner ever built.
No one knew the reason why but the Marantz had a beautiful sound.
There were other tuners that came close , Fisher , Scott , McIntosh , Harmon Kardon but none could match the Marantz 10B FM tuner.

For XM broadcast I use a Polk receiver in my main system. I also have a
Marantz 10B FM tuner. The Polk receiver sounds much better producing XM
music than either my Ipod or my Iphone. The Polk listed for about $300.00. Was a top of the line XM receiver , it received many rave reviews.
The Marantz 10B sold for about $750.00 more than 40 years ago !


Turntables if one is playing an LP does have an effect on the music as well. To be able to hear that difference one generally must have an excellent audio system. Having owned several high end turntables I can
honestly say I could not hear the difference in tables.

Cartridges , yes , sometimes tonearms . Unless poorly made a good turntable is silent when turning a LP.

Again today we are confortable with poor quality , look at our dress , generally our musical taste.
Why would one spend thousands of dollars for an audio system and than insert a $50.00 Ipod ?

wolfshead
02-19-2010, 08:54 AM
Ranking in audio quality on my system all using the best source material possible:

1. Linn LP12/Lingo/Ittok LVIII/Shure V15 Type VMR/NYAL Upgraded/Modified Super It

2. Linn Unidisk SC

3. ipod

The ipod doesn't come even close...but then neither does its price!!!;)
Price is very important when assembling an audio system. There are links.
Each link is generally of equal importance.
Cars are generally used when comparing audio gear. An example , would you buy a Porsche Carrera and expect Porsche to save money on the transmission ? Would you put inexpensive tires on your Porsche to save money. Than why include a cheap Ipod with your excellent audio system ?

scott fitlin
02-19-2010, 08:58 AM
Again today we are confortable with poor quality , look at our dress , generally our musical taste.
Why would one spend thousands of dollars for an audio system and than insert a $50.00 Ipod ?For the same reason people put a TWENTY FIVE CENT 7in 45rpm pressing on an expensive audio system in 1969!

To hear a tune.

:blink:

scott fitlin
02-19-2010, 09:12 AM
Price is very important when assembling an audio system. There are links.
Each link is generally of equal importance.
Cars are generally used when comparing audio gear. An example , would you buy a Porsche Carrera and expect Porsche to save money on the transmission ? Would you put inexpensive tires on your Porsche to save money. Than why include a cheap Ipod with your excellent audio system ?OK, so, how come many people that had expensive audio systems of the time also had AUTOMATIC RECORD CHANGER TURNTABLES, instead of SINGLE PLAY, MANUAL TURNTABLES?

These were not serious turntables for high end use. Mass market convenience product they most definitely were, and stacking 6 LP,s on a changer was NEVER considered good audio practice to the best of my knowledge. But, even manufacturers known for making GOOD turntables made record changers too! Brands like Dual, and Garrard made GOOD turntables, and convenience items too!

Somewhere in this country at the time, SOMEONE listened to SIX LP,s on a changer, through a Paragon, or a Hartsfield, you know they did.

:yes:

Tom Brennan
02-19-2010, 09:14 AM
For the same reason people put a TWENTY FIVE CENT 7in 45rpm pressing on an expensive audio system in 1969!

To hear a tune.

:blink:



No lie. I'll listen to a song I like on any format available, often downloads from Amazon. You know, if you get a sudden urge to hear "You Better Run" by the Young Rascals it's right there on Amazon.

scott fitlin
02-19-2010, 09:21 AM
No lie. I'll listen to a song I like on any format available, often downloads from Amazon. You know, if you get a sudden urge to hear "You Better Run" by the Young Rascals it's right there on Amazon.You don't even have to do this Tom!

Youtube has everything from EVERY era, and it is both LISTENABLE and VIEWABLE for FREE!

:D

Maron Horonzakz
02-19-2010, 09:30 AM
SOOOOOOOOO !!!! I now can take my pre 1970 JBL 375 HF drivers,,,Pop in a BrushWellman Be phram and WALLA !!!!!! I,m up to date sonicly,,,i dont think so,,,

wolfshead
02-19-2010, 09:36 AM
OK, so, how come many people that had expensive audio systems of the time also had AUTOMATIC RECORD CHANGER TURNTABLES, instead of SINGLE PLAY, MANUAL TURNTABLES?

These were not serious turntables for high end use. Mass market convenience product they most definitely were, and stacking 6 LP,s on a changer was NEVER considered good audio practice to the best of my knowledge. But, even manufacturers known for making GOOD turntables made record changers too! Brands like Dual, and Garrard made GOOD turntables, and convenience items too!

Somewhere in this country at the time, SOMEONE listened to SIX LP,s on a changer, through a Paragon, or a Hartsfield, you know they did.

:yes:
I am not aware of an audiophile using a record changer. Certainly I never did.
Garrard did make a single play turntabe , it was very good. The changers were for the non serious listerners. I bought a Dual for my daughter.

Why would someone pay $3000.00 for speakers and $79.00 for a record player ? Of all the audio shows I attended there was never any mention
of that.
I have been a member of several car clubs and the serious car owners
would never even think of putting cheap tires on their cars. There are exceptions as in everything. I see here the exception is the general rule !:)

wolfshead
02-19-2010, 09:42 AM
For the same reason people put a TWENTY FIVE CENT 7in 45rpm pressing on an expensive audio system in 1969!

To hear a tune.

:blink:
I am not aware of an audiophile playing 45in recordings. Plus they were generally $1.00 except for the extended play ones. They were a dollar in 1955 !
The Lp was the staple of audiophiles in addition tapes and FM music.
Most of the top end Turntables played 331/3 recordings only.

scott fitlin
02-19-2010, 09:45 AM
I am not aware of an audiophile using a record changer. Certainly I never did.
Garrard did make a single play turntabe , it was very good. The changers were for the non serious listerners. I bought a Dual for my daughter.

Why would someone pay $3000.00 for speakers and $79.00 for a record player ? Of all the audio shows I attended there was never any mention
of that.
I have been a member of several car clubs and the serious car owners
would never even think of putting cheap tires on their cars. There are exceptions as in everything. I see here the exception is the general rule !:)Sorry, but, NO! You may not have been paying much attention to what was popular, and YOU may not have had a changer in your $3000 system, but many folks did!

Alot more "CHANGERS" were sold, than "Transcription" turntables, and BIG business was NO different then, than it is today. Sell inexpensively made, convenience items, in high volume, to the "GENERAL PUBLIC", and they did, just as they do now!

wolfshead
02-19-2010, 09:48 AM
You don't even have to do this Tom!

Youtube has everything from EVERY era, and it is both LISTENABLE and VIEWABLE for FREE!

:D
I some times listen to Youtube as well on my Iphone. Quality is poor as is the Ipod on my phone. But than when I listen I expect poor audio quality.
Same as if I am driving a Honda or SUV I don't expect high performance.

Mr. Widget
02-19-2010, 10:05 AM
Ipod's are a musical source. In the old days a system was only as good as it's weakest link. The Ipod is a weak link in my opinion.Just as in the old days you could put a crap cartridge on an otherwise excellent turntable, you don't have to have poor audio coming out of an iPod.

My iPod only has lossless files on it and in my home system I use a Wadia i170 iPod dock. This device pulls the digital stream out of the iPod and sends it to my outboard DAC. The result is that my iPod sounds better than 99% of the CD or multidisc players out there.

It isn't even all that expensive. The Wadia Transport i170 (iPod dock) lists for just under $400 and is regularly available for around $300 on Audiogon.

That said, even the analog output of an iPod sounds better than XM... as long as you store high quality files on your iPod. I find XM really irritating, with all of that flanging and dithered noise.


Widget

scott fitlin
02-19-2010, 10:09 AM
Most of the top end Turntables played 331/3 recordings only.Now, since this thread has been used by it's author, to generalize the era's pre 1970 as being MUCH BETTER IN EVERY FACET OF EVERYTHING, and since I grew up around BOTH the good and the mediocre of the pre 70,s, albeit, NOT AS pre 70,s as you, I saw MOST pre 70,s turntables had THREE speeds! 33 1/3 rpm, 45 rpm, and 78 rpm!

And, umm, was the 33 1/3 rpm LP designed for HIGHER quality of it's time, OR for the CONVENIENCE of fitting MORE music on the 12in LP disc? LP does stand for LONG PLAY, if I am not mistaken!

ANY 12in vinyl disc that has 6 tracks on each side, is inherently LOWER in quality than a single sided 12in 45 rpm vinyl disc, due to the fact that the faster spinning disc offered better S/N, and a single sided 12in allowed the record pressing plants to cut deeper grooves, thereby offering better frequency response, especially in the low frequencies. AND they knew this back then, too!

So the 33 1/3 rpm LP was also a convenience item, not necessarily designed for the highest possible playback standards the technology had to offer, even then!

And not only that! It has long been known, and acknowledged that open reel tape, especially, 1/2 track 15ips TROUNCED even the best available vinyl!

EVEN IN THE 50,s! Sunday, Monday, HAPPY DAYS! Tuesday, Wedensday HAPPY DAYS!

:bouncy:

Beowulf57
02-19-2010, 10:12 AM
Price is very important when assembling an audio system. There are links.
Each link is generally of equal importance.
Cars are generally used when comparing audio gear. An example , would you buy a Porsche Carrera and expect Porsche to save money on the transmission ? Would you put inexpensive tires on your Porsche to save money. Than why include a cheap Ipod with your excellent audio system ?

For the days I'm feeling lazy and just want some background music...same reason I listen to satellite music...it's compressed and often includes some distortion, but I don't have to lift my butt off the couch.:D

Tom Brennan
02-19-2010, 10:13 AM
I am not aware of an audiophile using a record changer.

You're aware of one now.

Tom Brennan
02-19-2010, 10:16 AM
You don't even have to do this Tom!

Youtube has everything from EVERY era, and it is both LISTENABLE and VIEWABLE for FREE!

:D



Yeah, I listen to music on Youtube often. I recently bought an LG bluray machine that also streams video and makes it simple for me to watch Youtube over the regular TV and listen through the hi-fi.

Tom Brennan
02-19-2010, 10:18 AM
I am not aware of an audiophile playing 45in recordings.

You're aware of one now. You seem to have a very confining definition of audiophile.

scott fitlin
02-19-2010, 10:31 AM
Just as in the old days you could put a crap cartridge on an otherwise excellent turntable, you don't have to have poor audio coming out of an iPod.

My iPod only has lossless files on it and in my home system I use a Wadia i170 iPod dock. This device pulls the digital stream out of the iPod and sends it to my outboard DAC. The result is that my iPod sounds better than 99% of the CD or multidisc players out there.

It isn't even all that expensive. The Wadia Transport i170 (iPod dock) lists for just under $400 and is regularly available for around $300 on Audiogon.

That said, even the analog output of an iPod sounds better than XM... as long as you store high quality files on your iPod. I find XM really irritating, with all of that flanging and dithered noise.


WidgetAWW you beat me to it! I was loading the laptop with HIGH END digital music servers and the streaming and storing of higher quality digital files, next. But, you couldn't be MORE right! And my experience with well produced digital files and better than average software and playback hardware mirrors exactly what you said. To my ears, also, many of my digital files sound better than CD, and in some cases is surpassing the vinyl disc, too!

Companies like Wadia, and Bryston offering high end digital solutions, signals to me, the arrival of the formats!

I want to add something to this, I think is quite relevant to the discussion. Just as we are talking about Wadia, and last evening I mentioned SUPER HIGH QUALITY soundcards being THAT much better in the professional world of recording, Metric Halo ULN-8, to be specific, when I began researching a newer playback system for MY downloads, BOTH Serato, and Traktor have new offerings. Anyway, over at Wave Music, the dance music forum I am involved with, many of the younger guys are the ones advising me to go traktor instead of the new serato. One young man using traktor, recorded a file for me, and uses an EMU 1212 soundcard to record the file. The EMU is good, no where near the level of the Metric Halo, and no where near the price, either. Under $400 range! Well, when I received this file, I listened to it, analyzed, and scrutinized it over and over! AND, to be really honest, I was blown away by the quality of the digital file recording this young man sent to me. THIS was what got me to decide to go Traktor, and what also opened me up to the soundcards now available! It just sounds fantastic! And, the young man is in his twenties! SO, young people are aware of HIGHER quality, IF it is important to them. And to us DJ,s it is, just as it is to all of US here on this forum!

The EMU sound card is NOT at the level or cost of Metric Halo, and yet the sound quality is stunning. As good as any vinyl I have heard, and BETTER than CD in every way!

scott fitlin
02-19-2010, 10:55 AM
I some times listen to Youtube as well on my Iphone. Quality is poor as is the Ipod on my phone. But than when I listen I expect poor audio quality.
Same as if I am driving a Honda or SUV I don't expect high performance.But, the fact remains, you listened to FM, too! Which is poor quality compared to the vinyl you listen to.

:dont-know

louped garouv
02-19-2010, 11:27 AM
Just as in the old days you could put a crap cartridge on an otherwise excellent turntable, you don't have to have poor audio coming out of an iPod.

My iPod only has lossless files on it and in my home system I use a Wadia i170 iPod dock. This device pulls the digital stream out of the iPod and sends it to my outboard DAC. The result is that my iPod sounds better than 99% of the CD or multidisc players out there.

It isn't even all that expensive. The Wadia Transport i170 (iPod dock) lists for just under $400 and is regularly available for around $300 on Audiogon.

That said, even the analog output of an iPod sounds better than XM... as long as you store high quality files on your iPod. I find XM really irritating, with all of that flanging and dithered noise.


Widget

I don't have an Ipod, but an older IRiver H10 unit... but I too have it loaded with lossless files when I use it...

i also find it much better than XM, and I don't even have the benefit of a decent DAC in stream......

wolfshead
02-19-2010, 12:03 PM
But, the fact remains, you listened to FM, too! Which is poor quality compared to the vinyl you listen to.

:dont-know
You don't know what I listen to. I will tell you , I listen to Lp's but very seldom, Little if any FM , the FM music they are playing in the St.Louis area is terrible, CD's and XM for background music.

I listen mostly to CD's that I recorded. Some pre-recorded. As for as Lp's
I find that the audio system I purchased is an analog system , it perform's
better when the source is analog.
I do listen to audio tapes on occasion, which I recorded on a Revox deck.

I do not listen to music on my Iphone although it has an XM AP. I gave my Ipod to a young man next door. I use Xm for news and other purposes
on my I phone.

Fred Sanford
02-19-2010, 12:18 PM
An Ipod is a musical source , Example a FM tuner recieves the signal from a source. it than relays that signal to the preamp. The better the tuner the better the signal received , in this case audio. An Ipod does the same.

You lost me again. I can't tell if you're disagreeing with me, or disagreeing with yourself. A tuner gets a signal (of potentially greatly varying quality) from a radio station, and sends it to your stereo system. An iPod (or other digital music player) gets a digital file (of potentially greatly varying quality) and sends it to your stero system. There are good & bad tuners in the world, there are good & bad digital music players in the world. The greatest variation is in what music it's asked to play, and with a digital music player that's far more controllable by the end user.


The Marantz tuner was considered to be the finest FM tuner ever built.
No one knew the reason why but the Marantz had a beautiful sound.
There were other tuners that came close , Fisher , Scott , McIntosh , Harmon Kardon but none could match the Marantz 10B FM tuner.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the subject, but OK- you like the Marantz tuner. I never liked the compressed sound of FM, and never liked the programming options, so for decades now I've only turned on a radio to hear traffic reports while driving.


For XM broadcast I use a Polk receiver in my main system. I also have a
Marantz 10B FM tuner. The Polk receiver sounds much better producing XM
music than either my Ipod or my Iphone. The Polk listed for about $300.00. Was a top of the line XM receiver , it received many rave reviews.
The Marantz 10B sold for about $750.00 more than 40 years ago !

I find all satellite radio pretty much unlistenable- as Widget noted the low bit-rate is grating to me. YouTube is just as nasty.


Turntables if one is playing an LP does have an effect on the music as well. To be able to hear that difference one generally must have an excellent audio system. Having owned several high end turntables I can
honestly say I could not hear the difference in tables.

Cartridges , yes , sometimes tonearms . Unless poorly made a good turntable is silent when turning a LP.

And, the vast majority of turntables manufactured in the world were, arguably, "poorly made", and changed the recorded sound of an LP audibly. They were also generally "poorly set-up" and then "poorly maintained", exacerbating the original problem and further deteriorating the end result. The point I was making there was that even a low-cost iPod (or similar) can store a high-quality recording file, and play it back flawlessly through a cable or dock with a direct-out, or as Widget suggest, using a digital output into an outboard DAC. The greatest variable is the user- if high quality files are stored, the result can easily be high quality audio.


Again today we are confortable with poor quality , look at our dress , generally our musical taste.
Why would one spend thousands of dollars for an audio system and than insert a $50.00 Ipod ?

Because technology has advanced exponentially, and extremely powerful & useful tools are now quite portable & inexpensive? :dont-know

je

Fred Sanford
02-19-2010, 12:35 PM
You don't know what I listen to. I will tell you , I listen to Lp's but very seldom, Little if any FM , the FM music they are playing in the St.Louis area is terrible, CD's and XM for background music.

I listen mostly to CD's that I recorded. Some pre-recorded. As for as Lp's
I find that the audio system I purchased is an analog system , it perform's
better when the source is analog.
I do listen to audio tapes on occasion, which I recorded on a Revox deck.

I do not listen to music on my Iphone although it has an XM AP. I gave my Ipod to a young man next door. I use Xm for news and other purposes
on my I phone.

So, after you've dismissed iPods, you mention that you primarily listen to CDs? What is it about your CD player that makes it a viable source for most of your listening, when an iPod can deliver the exact same CD-quality recordings with much greater convenience/storage capacity?

je

4313B
02-19-2010, 12:38 PM
Because technology has advanced exponentially, and extremely powerful & useful tools are now quite portable & inexpensive? :dont-knowEven as a small child back when vinyl was king I was smart enough to know that it was a terrible media format. I look at my turntable today and chuckle. It's just flat out goofy. All of it. Fun times though. The album covers were the best part of the whole mess. :rotfl: Kids get a kick out of watching the needle trace the grooves for a few moments and then they run onto something else alot more fun.

Which reminds me, I need to order a few spare belts... :barf:

wolfshead
02-19-2010, 12:40 PM
Fred Sanford, I think the problem we are having is you use the term vast majority , I do not.
The vast majority of people are average , I am not addressing the vast majority. I think I am addressing audiophiles, a very small segment of the population.

It is not only I that viewed the Marantz 10B as the finest tuner built , but everyone connect to audio.
It has to do with the transmission of a signal from a device to another device. The Ipod to a pre-amp and the tuner to a pre-amp. Than on to the rest of an audio system. The originating siginal is not the issue,
as you and I have no control over the originating siginal.

Again I am not referring to the majority of turntables but only the finest , and to those who are interested in the best and are willing to maintain the best.

As for as cost , cost has increased across the board with few exceptions
Cars , clothing , food shelter , watches , travel etc. etc.
Cars for example , in 1973 I bought a 1973 Porsche 911S for for $11,000
that was the top of the line Porsche of that year.
Today the top of the line non turbo Porsche is closer to $90,000 !
Afforable than but not today.
The same applies to audio.

There is no cheap or free lunch out there today.

hjames
02-19-2010, 12:49 PM
So, after you've dismissed iPods, you mention that you primarily listen to CDs? What is it about your CD player that makes it a viable source for most of your listening, when an iPod can deliver the exact same CD-quality recordings with much greater convenience/storage capacity?

je

Snobbery and the self-defined limits he keeps nattering about ...

Its a buncha hooey - lossless digital files can be played easily and are an exact copy of the source recording. Play them in a low res system and they sound fine, play them in a high end system to get the full potential, but its the same files.

But only HIS CD player is good ...
:applaud:
I still think he's Maroon's sock puppet!

wolfshead
02-19-2010, 12:49 PM
So, after you've dismissed iPods, you mention that you primarily listen to CDs? What is it about your CD player that makes it a viable source for most of your listening, when an iPod can deliver the exact same CD-quality recordings with much greater convenience/storage capacity?

je
From what I have read , there is a concensus with those in audio that CD's are superior in audio quality to Ipod's.
There is no question that Ipod's have a better storage/capacity. If one is looking for the latter than the Ipod is for them.

Once again I am referring the those who appreciate quality in audio reproduction not the average or masses.

scott fitlin
02-19-2010, 12:52 PM
You don't know what I listen to. I will tell you , I listen to Lp's but very seldom, Little if any FM , the FM music they are playing in the St.Louis area is terrible, CD's and XM for background music.

I listen mostly to CD's that I recorded. Some pre-recorded. As for as Lp's
I find that the audio system I purchased is an analog system , it perform's
better when the source is analog.
I do listen to audio tapes on occasion, which I recorded on a Revox deck.

I do not listen to music on my Iphone although it has an XM AP. I gave my Ipod to a young man next door. I use Xm for news and other purposes
on my I phone.I do NOT know exactly what you listen to is right! However, I am merely reiterating what YOU tell us about what is good, and what you have stated YOU LIKE!

It is you who are telling us about HOW good FM, vinyl, and pre 70,s speakers are.

WE are saying we don't agree with much of what you say. We don't say you MUST change to suit us, either.

BUT, and I can quote every one of your posts in this thread, you have basically slagged EVERYTHING on this planet that came after 1969, not just speakers. Isn't there ANYTHING good life on earth still has to offer? I know it must be hard to have to put forth so much energy into remaining in a constant state of anger, and dismay at the worlds moving forward into areas you either do not understand, or refuse to accept.

Unfortunately, I can't do anything for you about this, only you can. Personally, I have already done my bit being miserable about the way music and audio went. Fortunately, however, the new digital technologies have become good, IMO, and in the opinion of many others too. Music has also changed, considerably, for the better, in the last couple of years. And not only that, the new ideas, gear, speakers, and technologies are FRESH, NEW and EXCITING, and challenge me, and make me think! That is the KEY right there. It is motivating and stimulating to myself, and others.

IF it didn't work well, and it didn't for a period of time, I would be speaking as you do. BUT I don't feel the same way as you.

From my point of view, it is GREAT waking up every day and looking forward to today and tomorrow. Musically, I love the music of my generation, but, I love looking to the future even more. Simply put, I get bored and tired with what we did yesterday because I have BEEN THERE and DONE THAT SO MUCH!

Movies! You slag them all, the ones made now. I think there is alot of empty, action packed rubbish, however, sometimes THAT'S entertaining, too! We have become a more sexually explicit society, and sometimes I am entertained by this as well. OTOH, I went to see " The Road " and THIS was NOT an empty movie filled with trash. This movie made me think!

Nothing wrong with listening to and praising the likes of Sinatra, Handel, Gershwin, or whoever your listening to today on vintage audio systems. But, there is MORE available, and I want to experience this too.

On a technical point, technology can, will, and is surpassing and eclipsing the technology of yesterday! And it will continue to do so, with you, or without.

It's just the way it really is.

hjames
02-19-2010, 12:53 PM
From what I have read , there is a concensus with those in audio that CD's are superior in audio quality to Ipod's.
There is no question that Ipod's have a better storage/capacity. If one is looking for the latter than the Ipod is for them.

Once again I am referring the those who appreciate quality in audio reproduction not the average or masses.
and if you rip your CD to a hard drive in Lossless mod - the file is identical when you copy it from device to device. It IS the same as the "raw" cd's datafile.

Its all about the bitrate - and lossless is an exact copy.

wolfshead
02-19-2010, 12:54 PM
Snobbery and the self-defined limits he keeps nattering about ...

Its a buncha hooey - lossless digital files can be played easily and are an exact copy of the source recording. Play them in a low res system and they sound fine, play them in a high end system to get the full potential, but its the same files.

But only HIS CD player is good ...
:applaud:
I still think he's Maroon's sock puppet!
Why lower yourself with name calling. You can do better than that. Why not offer a counterpoint.

My counterpoint I don't have the best CD player. I will add it is the end results that matter.
An audio system is only as good as it's weakest link !:)

SEAWOLF97
02-19-2010, 01:00 PM
I still think he's Maroon's sock puppet!

must be something in Mo. water ? :rotfl:

He puts out a supposition and then argues with the opposite point. :banghead:

on topic ? not even hardly.

sock puppet ? naw, M is much more articulate than W ,
or is it the other way around ? I confuse them.

Fred Sanford
02-19-2010, 01:01 PM
From what I have read , there is a concensus with those in audio that CD's are superior in audio quality to Ipod's.
There is no question that Ipod's have a better storage/capacity. If one is looking for the latter than the Ipod is for them.

Once again I am referring the those who appreciate quality in audio reproduction not the average or masses.

Again, I'm going to be careful to say "iPods (or other digital music players)". They're a delivery system. As Widget pointed out, an iPod can simply be a storage unit, like a physical CD, and the file can be converted by a high-quality DAC and deliver the EXACT same sound that a CD can.

Exact.

100%.

Identical.

I honestly think you don't understand exactly what an iPod (or other digital music player) is, or what it does. Is it the price point, which you so often seem to point out? My main digital music player had a retail price of ~$5,000- would that sound better to your ears, just because of its price tag? 'Cause, actually, the iPod I recently got for free is capable of the exact same audio quality, in a setup such as Widget described.

Exact.

100%.

Identical.

je

scott fitlin
02-19-2010, 01:03 PM
From what I have read , there is a concensus with those in audio that CD's are superior in audio quality to Ipod's.
There is no question that Ipod's have a better storage/capacity. If one is looking for the latter than the Ipod is for them.

Once again I am referring the those who appreciate quality in audio reproduction not the average or masses.There are, now, much higher quality digital storage solutions and recording media, than what was available just three years ago.

Ipod is as the TRANSISTOR AM RADIO, Walkman, Cassette, and 8 track were. Portable, inexpensive, music to go!

There certainly is AUDIOPHILE quality digital files, servers,and streaming solutions, and playback gear, available.

scott fitlin
02-19-2010, 01:10 PM
As for as cost , cost has increased across the board with few exceptions
Cars , clothing , food shelter , watches , travel etc. etc.
Cars for example , in 1973 I bought a 1973 Porsche 911S for for $11,000
that was the top of the line Porsche of that year.
Today the top of the line non turbo Porsche is closer to $90,000 !
Afforable than but not today.
The same applies to audio.

There is no cheap or free lunch out there today.$11,000 was NOT affordable for most back in 1973. It may have been for you, but most of the middle class could NOT swing this much for an automobile in '73. My father was a NYC Police officer until 1974. And on a policemans salary at that time, $11,000 was OUT OF THE QUESTION!

Now your using my points, different brands and models, same pricing scale then to now, basically.

Whose side are you on, anyway? Mine or yours? :rotfl:

scott fitlin
02-19-2010, 01:18 PM
and if you rip your CD to a hard drive in Lossless mod - the file is identical when you copy it from device to device. It IS the same as the "raw" cd's datafile.

Its all about the bitrate - and lossless is an exact copy.Yes it is!

And BTW, Heather, how are you doing with the new wireless server system your using or trying at home?

wolfshead
02-19-2010, 01:42 PM
Maybe my understanding what Lansing Heritage is and your understanding is different.
When I entered high fidelity , JBL was a revered name in audio. JBL designed and built some of the finest speakers in the world ! As a matter of fact some thought JBL was over engineered ,the quality and workmanship over done.


Look at the quality and workmanship of it's drivers and lenses. Built to last for decades. Even the JBL cabinets were first class. My Hartsfields were built in 1956 !

The audio speaker market was changing , many of the fine speaker companies such as JBL, University , Jensen , Bozak , Altec , Hartley , Acoustic Resarch , Electro-Voice , Tannoy , etc, either went out of
business or was purchased by large corporations only interested in using these fine names to enrich their bottom line.

JBL was no exception. JBL has been bought and sold a number of times.
The downturn in the quality of JBL's began in the late 70's.The name
JBL continued but the quality and workmanship declined as JBL once a speaker company that stood for excellence , now sold speakers at Best Buy and Walmart.

Yes in the beginning those who bought JBL's were snobs. As those who buy Ferrari's and Patek Philppe watches. They wanted the best.
Maybe we are saying the same thing.

scott fitlin
02-19-2010, 02:29 PM
WE, meaning YOU and I, are saying the same things! I come from a different end of the market than you do, but, I strive to create the BEST for this application.

Here is one brand name WE have in common, BUT for very differnt products, I think! BOZAK.

Bozak made speakers many loved and still do.

Bozak also made the legendary broadcast/nightclub mixer, The Bozak CMA-10-2DL. Class A design, all discrete circuitry, premium parts, well built, still have two, and NO OTHER preamp/mixer sounds like The Bozak! But, as GREAT as this mixer is sonically, and IT IS, sometimes TODAYS music sounds better through a more modern design. Remember this, The Bozak mixer has what they used to call the hifi curve response. this response was NOT 70,s or 80,s. Rather more 50,s and 60,s. It worked better than any other mixer of it's time, with 70,s disco, and 80,s dance, into the 90,s and even today to some extent. This product was made to meet the needs of the industry then, and fill a void in the marketplace.

Speakers of this era the same thing. Sure, many vintage designs and drivers sound sweet, to a point, though. Todays bass rich music will easily overtax a high compliance suspension at even moderate volume levels when the LF reaches deep enough, How do I know? I lived through it in my own system. then, the older speakers sound sweet, until they become thermally compressed, and IT ALWAYS happens, because the older designs can't dissipate the heat as they need to be able to as dictated by the demands of todays music being placed upon them. Thermally compressed speakers sound GRUNGY, not musical.

The craftsmanship you speak of, yes, the vintage drivers, and in fact most audio gear of high quality was WELL MADE! We still have well made items today, but we also have more inexpensively made items today. And then, we have PREMIUM drivers, made from very different materials than were in use 40 years ago. Todays high end compression drivers use neodymium magnets, instead of Alnico, or Ferrite. One reason for the downturn in the use of alnico was the extreme expense of Cobalt. As for both alnico, and ferrite magnets, The market, especially the pro and touring markets, wanted LIGHTER weight, yet premium sounding components. The manufacturers obliged the market.

JBL becoming available at Best Buy and Circuit City, that happened in the 90,s I think. I agree with you on this, was a mistake. But, can't put the genie back in the bottle either.

OTOH, you should hear what you can get from PREMIUM MODERN JBL, set up and used correctly! My system would prove this to you. And I can play anything on my system, from classical to techno!

But, just as things of your generation were not the same as your parents generation, so today is not the same as either of our generations. But, even though I will be 48 this summer, and I loved MY generations music, I love what is happening now, too.

And again, I have heard for myself what we can get out of the new technologies. It is GOOD!

And, just as the technology is maturing, so too are we, as is the production and making of music utilizing the new technologies available. Some of todays music, man, we just couldn't record bass this way. And EVERY time i listen to older music of my time, I REALLY begin to MISS MY DEEP BASS!

Wolf, when I heard the kind of recording quality that can be achieved using SERIOUS sound cards like Metric Halo, HOLY SHIT, no record sounds like that! So, that was it! game over, right there, ANALOG WAS, DIGITAL IS!

hjames
02-19-2010, 02:33 PM
Maybe my understanding what Lansing Heritage is and your understanding is different.
When I entered high fidelity , JBL was a revered name in audio. JBL designed and built some of the finest speakers in the world ! As a matter of fact some thought JBL was over engineered ,the quality and workmanship over done.

JBL has been bought and sold a number of times. The downturn in the quality of JBL's began in the late 70's. The name JBL continued but the quality and workmanship declined as JBL once a speaker company that stood for excellence , now sold speakers at Best Buy and Walmart.

Yes in the beginning those who bought JBL's were snobs. As those who buy Ferrari's and Patek Philppe watches. They wanted the best.
Maybe we are saying the same thing.

Nope - I don't think we are - Excellence, by itself, is nothing. Look at Tucker, Packard, Marantz, Fisher, look at many high end brands who were unable to manage the bottom line and are no longer in the market. Look further - Enzo is dead and buried - Ferrari is owned by Fiat!

As a wise man here has mentioned many times, its about "Price points".
If you build an excellent product that is priced out of the market, you won't survive and will be gone - but if you design many products, each within a specific target market, with luck, you can survive.

The Walmart and JBL speakers,those are designed for the mass market, and their continued sales have kept the company afloat while supporting a crack engineering team that can still design high calibre product for the high end market.

Its not all gloom and doom -
Open your eyes and look around, man, and stop your whining ... its unseemly in this day and age.

scott fitlin
02-19-2010, 02:51 PM
Wolf look at Altec. Once THE DEFINITIVE BRAND OF AUDIO FOR THEATERS!

Yes, they were bought up by Telex in the 90,s but had long since lost their "king of the hill" status for theater sound.

For whatever reasons, Altec by the time THX was in wide use, couldn't, or wouldn't, and didn't have what the THEATERS wanted and needed. And JBL grabbed hold of this market.

See what I mean? If industry or the public REALLY wants something, even though you may not agree, it can and will still happen. Only thing is, it cost Altec their leadership in the theater sound business, and eventually, lost that segment of the market altogether.

And the stuff today is very good and getting better all the time. you get with the program, or get left behind.

Everyone else will be out and about, enjoying!

scott fitlin
02-19-2010, 03:17 PM
Yes in the beginning those who bought JBL's were snobs. They wanted the best.
Wolf if this was a transatlantic ship, you know which one your on?

Your sailing THE TITANIC!

BUILT AS THE LARGEST AND FINEST OF ALL SHIPS!

BUILT TO WITHSTAND ANYTHING!

BUILT TO BE UNSINKABLE!







She went down anyway!

wolfshead
02-19-2010, 03:28 PM
Nope - I don't think we are - Excellence, by itself, is nothing. Look at Tucker, Packard, Marantz, Fisher, look at many high end brands who were unable to manage the bottom line and are no longer in the market. Look further - Enzo is dead and buried - Ferrari is owned by Fiat!

As a wise man here has mentioned many times, its about "Price points".
If you build an excellent product that is priced out of the market, you won't survive and will be gone - but if you design many products, each within a specific target market, with luck, you can survive.

The Walmart and JBL speakers,those are designed for the mass market, and their continued sales have kept the company afloat while supporting a crack engineering team that can still design high calibre product for the high end market.

Its not all gloom and doom -
Open your eyes and look around, man, and stop your whining ... its unseemly in this day and age.

In our capitalist market there are winners and losers. Ferrari is owned by Fiat , Fiat does not interfere with the building of Ferrari's nor it's racing program. There are no cheap Ferrari's.

Rolls Royce is owned by BMW , The Rolls is not a copy of a 7 series BMW.
The quality and workmanship was not compromised as was the case with many of the audio companies when purchased by larger corporations.

Ferrari , Enzo made sure before he died that Ferrari would control it's
development and racing programs. One reason he refused Ford's offer
to purchase Ferrari.

JBL today has had it's image tarnished by it's association with the low end
market. Not so with McIntosh. JBL today is just another speaker company.
There are companies that will not allow itself to be tarnished by being associated with the mass market and have survived. Rolex , Cartier , as mention earlier McIntosh , Ferrari , brioni , Chanel , Steinway , etc.

Image is everything in marketing , Honda attempted building a $80,000
sports car ,to compete with Porsche , Jaquar , Ferrari etc. It failed,
why ? it was a Honda ! Changing the name to Accura didn't help.
An outstanding sports car , wrong name , poor association.

The name JBL means little today except for us old timers who remember when the name JBL stood for excellence , owning a JBL speaker system was no different than owning a fine watch , or fine car. Not something
one could purchase at Walmart, to insure it's bottom line.

scott fitlin
02-19-2010, 03:38 PM
OTOH, you ever heard of Focal speakers? They make some HIGH END stuff. Yet, they make a speaker system for Apple TV, and computer speakers too! Kind of about as mass market as it gets here as well.

B & W has a computer speaker system, too. What's up with that?

Pioneer owns TAD, and TAD is GREAT stuff, even though Pioneers stuff is fairly mass market.

:wave:

hjames
02-19-2010, 04:00 PM
In our capitalist market there are winners and losers. Ferrari is owned by Fiat , Fiat does not interfere with the building of Ferrari's nor it's racing program. There are no cheap Ferrari's.

Rolls Royce is owned by BMW , The Rolls is not a copy of a 7 series BMW.
The quality and workmanship was not compromised as was the case with many of the audio companies when purchased by larger corporations.

Ferrari , Enzo made sure before he died that Ferrari would control it's
development and racing programs. One reason he refused Ford's offer
to purchase Ferrari.

JBL today has had it's image tarnished by it's association with the low end
market. Not so with McIntosh. JBL today is just another speaker company.
There are companies that will not allow itself to be tarnished by being associated with the mass market and have survived. Rolex , Cartier , as mention earlier McIntosh , Ferrari , brioni , Chanel , Steinway , etc.

Image is everything in marketing , Honda attempted building a $80,000
sports car ,to compete with Porsche , Jaquar , Ferrari etc. It failed,
why ? it was a Honda ! Changing the name to Accura didn't help.
An outstanding sports car , wrong name , poor association.

The name JBL means little today except for us old timers who remember when the name JBL stood for excellence , owning a JBL speaker system was no different than owning a fine watch , or fine car. Not something
one could purchase at Walmart, to insure it's bottom line.

You still don't get it ... you paint a picture and don't know how to choose the colors ...

The Honda NSX was sucessfull - it was produced between 1990 and 2005 - 15 years of production is not a failure. It didn't try to be a ferrari - ferrari's don't sell for $80k - wrong market , wrong example.

Ferrari and Ford? I seem to recall the fords GT-40s beating Ferrari right after the abortive merger ... Enzo was going to sell and changed his mind -
was the word of that gentleman enough??

Macintosh Audio?
The company was purchased by Japanese car audio maker Clarion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarion_%28car_audio%29) in 1990. McIntosh components, particularly the early tube models, are highly regarded in Japan. In a speech shortly after the purchase, Clarion president Yutaka Oyamada (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Yutaka_Oyamada&action=edit&redlink=1) told McIntosh employees, "...we like McIntosh as it is, and we have no intention of changing what has made it so successful."[1] (http://www.roger-russell.com/mcintosh2.htm#mcintoshsold) Since the Clarion purchase, McIntosh has expanded into car audio and home theater.
In May 2003, McIntosh was sold by Clarion to D&M Holdings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%26M_Holdings), formed in 2002 from the merger of Denon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denon) and Marantz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marantz), also of Japan. McIntosh continues to operate independent engineering, design, and production operations in accordance with the company's tradition.

Some doom and gloomers have said the best macIntosh is the pre 1990 older gear, but then again, that doesn't fit what you are arguing, so of course, you would not mention that fact.

Quotes from wikipedia - but available all over the web ...

This is too repetitive and getting old and tedious ... wake up and smell the joy in life - and quit whining about life sucking so much ..

I'm going to do something real, offline - suggest you do the same.

SEAWOLF97
02-19-2010, 04:30 PM
. There are no cheap Ferrari's..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_Dino

Dino was a brand for mid-engined, rear-drive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MR_layout) sports cars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_car) produced by Ferrari (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari) The Dino brand was an attempt by Ferrari to produce a relatively low cost sports car by using components from other vehicles.



Rolls Royce is owned by BMW , The Rolls is not a copy of a 7 series BMW.

The quality and workmanship was not compromised .



2003+ Phantom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Phantom_%282003%29) (saloon) — Launched in January 2003 at Detroit's North American International Auto Show, this is the first model from Rolls-Royce Motor Cars Limited, a BMW (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW) Group subsidiary having no corporate connection with the previous Rolls-Royce Motors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Motors) company apart from the trademarks mentioned above.

The car has a 6.75 L V12 engine sourced from BMW,2010+ Ghost (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Ghost) (saloon) - Rolls Royce announced in September 2006 that it will develop a new 4-door model named Ghost (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Ghost). The Ghost shall be smaller than the previous Rolls Royce automobile installment, the Phantom. Only 20% of the components would be sourced from BMW (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Motor_Cars




JBL today has had it's image tarnished by it's association with the low end market.

Well finally something we can agree on ;) ..but in the past, JBL has been on the precipice more than once...if I recall correctly, the reason they joined up with Altec was to stay alive. Am relatively sure that car audio & BB throwaways help keep them afloat now.

You seem long on rhetoric , but short on facts. Please post links to substantiate your opinions.

BMWCCA
02-19-2010, 08:02 PM
Image is everything in marketing , Honda attempted building a $80,000 sports car ,to compete with Porsche , Jaquar , Ferrari etc. It failed, why ? it was a Honda ! Changing the name to Accura didn't help. An outstanding sports car , wrong name , poor association.You seem to have a narrow-minded approach, a myopic viewpoint, and a convenient frame of reference conveniently manipulated in support of your twisted version of reality.

Take, for a minute, your revered Porsche, one of the first companies to leverage their name and reputation in pursuit of profit by attaching their phony crest to inferior products produced by lower-line companies for them. The first example would be the model 914 Volks-Porsche which, as a four-cylinder model, wasn't even called "Porsche" anywhere but America. This rusting bucket of bolts was created by Porsche for VW as a replacement for their aging Karman-Ghia line. VW turned it down.

Then there was the "Porsche" 924, created by Porsche to use as many VW parts as possible including the crappy electronics, switch gear, Super Beetle suspension, and pieces of a truck motor and parts from an Audi 100LS to make one of the worst engines ever offered by Ferdie and Ferry's company. Or move to today and compare the VW Touareg and the Porsche Cayenne. Peas in a pod, especially the "Porsche" six-cylinder version with the VW V-6.

Yes, Wolf, it happens to everyone. Just like Porsche can build a 924 and recover to create the GT3, so can JBL build the Radiance series and still conjure up the Everest-II. And if you need any more ammunition to blow your own theory of antediluvian supremacy into the weeds, look no further than the Ektachrome memories of your own 1973 Porsche 911S and compare it to any modern Porsche which, even with their cheap plastic interior parts and silly paeans to the past, makes any 901-series car look like the anachronism that it is...and always was.

Drive a new GT3. Listen to an Everest-II. Piss on a 924. Use a CF-150 for kindling. Compare loss-less files from a hundred-dollar iPod to your best reproduction device turning 33-1/3 rpm vinyl discs and tell us, honestly, what you hear. Or get your hearing checked. ;)

scott fitlin
02-19-2010, 09:49 PM
You seem to have a narrow-minded approach, a myopic viewpoint, and a convenient frame of reference conveniently manipulated in support of your twisted version of reality.

Take, for a minute, your revered Porsche, one of the first companies to leverage their name and reputation in pursuit of profit by attaching their phony crest to inferior products produced by lower-line companies for them. The first example would be the model 914 Volks-Porsche which, as a four-cylinder model, wasn't even called "Porsche" anywhere but America. This rusting bucket of bolts was created by Porsche for VW as a replacement for their aging Karman-Ghia line. VW turned it down.

Then there was the "Porsche" 924, created by Porsche to use as many VW parts as possible including the crappy electronics, switch gear, Super Beetle suspension, and pieces of a truck motor and parts from an Audi 100LS to make one of the worst engines ever offered by Ferdie and Ferry's company. Or move to today and compare the VW Touareg and the Porsche Cayenne. Peas in a pod, especially the "Porsche" six-cylinder version with the VW V-6.

Yes, Wolf, it happens to everyone. Just like Porsche can build a 924 and recover to create the GT3, so can JBL build the Radiance series and still conjure up the Everest-II. And if you need any more ammunition to blow your own theory of antediluvian supremacy into the weeds, look no further than the Ektachrome memories of your own 1973 Porsche 911S and compare it to any modern Porsche which, even with their cheap plastic interior parts and silly paeans to the past, makes any 901-series car look like the anachronism that it is...and always was.

Drive a new GT3. Listen to an Everest-II. Piss on a 924. Use a CF-150 for kindling. Compare loss-less files from a hundred-dollar iPod to your best reproduction device turning 33-1/3 rpm vinyl discs and tell us, honestly, what you hear. Or get your hearing checked. ;):applaud:

Allanvh5150
02-19-2010, 10:48 PM
You seem to have a narrow-minded approach, a myopic viewpoint, and a convenient frame of reference conveniently manipulated in support of your twisted version of reality.

It is quite sad when people start attacking someone for having a point of view. I would have expected most people here to be a little more grown up. :(

Fred Sanford
02-20-2010, 07:57 AM
It is quite sad when people start attacking someone for having a point of view. I would have expected most people here to be a little more grown up. :(

Generally, it seems that "points of view" are accepted here in an adult manner. However, it does test any adult's patience when the points of view are derived from haphazard observations of small/outdated sample groups, processed through fatally flawed logic, and then the resulting highly questionable conclusions are liberally slathered over sweeping generalizations and repeated ad nauseum in the hopes that they will sway other readers.

Or, maybe it's just that all of the above reminds me too much of conversations with my mother-in-law. :dont-know

je

wolfshead
02-20-2010, 08:16 AM
:applaud:
You are correct , the 914 was not a Porsche , was built by Volkswagen.
Was only sold as a Porsche in the U.S.
The 924 also was not built by Porsche. Yes there was marketing involved.
Especially for the United States.

The Porsche sports car club of America lobbied to prevent that type of marketing , but was threaten with thel ost of it's charter if it did not admit the 914 in it's club as a Porsche ! Only in the United States.

Porsche continued to build and race outstanding cars. JBL in California ceased to exist. The quality that went into the older speakers was generally not applied to the newer speakers.

Porsche on the other hand continued to produce outstanding sport cars.
Compare a 1973 Porsche 911 with a new Porsche Carrera , the new car is far superior.

Now compare an Everest with a Hartsfield. Than compare a top of the line turntable , arm and cartridge with an Ipod ,use a European press Lp.
What difference will you hear ?

wolfshead
02-20-2010, 08:23 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_Dino

Dino was a brand for mid-engined, rear-drive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MR_layout) sports cars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_car) produced by Ferrari (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari) The Dino brand was an attempt by Ferrari to produce a relatively low cost sports car by using components from other vehicles.






2003+ Phantom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Phantom_%282003%29) (saloon) — Launched in January 2003 at Detroit's North American International Auto Show, this is the first model from Rolls-Royce Motor Cars Limited, a BMW (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW) Group subsidiary having no corporate connection with the previous Rolls-Royce Motors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Motors) company apart from the trademarks mentioned above.
The car has a 6.75 L V12 engine sourced from BMW,2010+ Ghost (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Ghost) (saloon) - Rolls Royce announced in September 2006 that it will develop a new 4-door model named Ghost (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Ghost). The Ghost shall be smaller than the previous Rolls Royce automobile installment, the Phantom. Only 20% of the components would be sourced from BMW (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Motor_Cars



Well finally something we can agree on ;) ..but in the past, JBL has been on the precipice more than once...if I recall correctly, the reason they joined up with Altec was to stay alive. Am relatively sure that car audio & BB throwaways help keep them afloat now.

You seem long on rhetoric , but short on facts. Please post links to substantiate your opinions.
The name Ferrari was never applied to Dino a six cylinder sports car.

BMW owns Rolls Royce ! The car is built in England. The Rolls Royce company has had several owners before BMW.

Bentley is owned by Volkswagen , there to the quality of the car has not been allowed to decline.

wolfshead
02-20-2010, 08:50 AM
You still don't get it ... you paint a picture and don't know how to choose the colors ...

The Honda NSX was sucessfull - it was produced between 1990 and 2005 - 15 years of production is not a failure. It didn't try to be a ferrari - ferrari's don't sell for $80k - wrong market , wrong example.

Ferrari and Ford? I seem to recall the fords GT-40s beating Ferrari right after the abortive merger ... Enzo was going to sell and changed his mind -
was the word of that gentleman enough??

Macintosh Audio?
The company was purchased by Japanese car audio maker Clarion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarion_%28car_audio%29) in 1990. McIntosh components, particularly the early tube models, are highly regarded in Japan. In a speech shortly after the purchase, Clarion president Yutaka Oyamada (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Yutaka_Oyamada&action=edit&redlink=1) told McIntosh employees, "...we like McIntosh as it is, and we have no intention of changing what has made it so successful."[1] (http://www.roger-russell.com/mcintosh2.htm#mcintoshsold) Since the Clarion purchase, McIntosh has expanded into car audio and home theater.
In May 2003, McIntosh was sold by Clarion to D&M Holdings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%26M_Holdings), formed in 2002 from the merger of Denon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denon) and Marantz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marantz), also of Japan. McIntosh continues to operate independent engineering, design, and production operations in accordance with the company's tradition.

Some doom and gloomers have said the best macIntosh is the pre 1990 older gear, but then again, that doesn't fit what you are arguing, so of course, you would not mention that fact.

Quotes from wikipedia - but available all over the web ...

This is too repetitive and getting old and tedious ... wake up and smell the joy in life - and quit whining about life sucking so much ..

I'm going to do something real, offline - suggest you do the same.

The Accura was in production for 10 years ,1990 -2000, only 15,000
cars were sold over that ten year period. The car was discontinued because of poor sales. The car was selling for $88,000 by the time it was discontinued. The NSX was designed to compete with other high end sportcars in it's class it failed to do that.

Ferrari would have sold to Ford , the problem was that Ford would not give Ferrari the right to control development and it's racing departments which Fiat does. Ford defeated Ferrari on the track with their GT-40's
But only after Ferrari refused Fords offer. The Fords were later outclassed
By the 917 turbo Porsches.

As for as McIntosh , the market has determined the value of the pre-1970 tube Mac equipment , my Mac 275 which sold for $444.00 in 1963 now
sells for over $4,000 on Ebay !

Who said life sucks ? I enjoy fine cars , audio , cloths , international travel , fine watches , music and beautiful women !
Oh yes those Hartsfield I purchased in 1966 for $800.00 now sells on Ebay for over $30,000 ! not to mention my Marantz 10B or 7c. Like
money inthe bank. Oh yes that Transcripter turntable has more than triple in price. Purchased in 1973.

Doom and gloom ?:)

scott fitlin
02-20-2010, 09:16 AM
You are correct , the 914 was not a Porsche , was built by Volkswagen.
Was only sold as a Porsche in the U.S.
The 924 also was not built by Porsche. Yes there was marketing involved.
Especially for the United States.

The Porsche sports car club of America lobbied to prevent that type of marketing , but was threaten with thel ost of it's charter if it did not admit the 914 in it's club as a Porsche ! Only in the United States.

Porsche continued to build and race outstanding cars. JBL in California ceased to exist. The quality that went into the older speakers was generally not applied to the newer speakers.

Porsche on the other hand continued to produce outstanding sport cars.
Compare a 1973 Porsche 911 with a new Porsche Carrera , the new car is far superior.

Now compare an Everest with a Hartsfield. Than compare a top of the line turntable , arm and cartridge with an Ipod ,use a European press Lp.
What difference will you hear ?You see, you fail to hear what many have said to you in this thread. iPod is a storage and playback device. YOU CAN, IF YOU WANT TO, get better quality devices, and MUCH higher playback quality. Again, I must reiterate my own statement, about 1969, and the 8 Track! People were at the beach, with their portable 8 tracks listening to music, and getting a tan. And some people also had/have SERIOUS audio systems at home to listen to. But, would be kind of hard to schlep a Hartsfield to the beach, ya know?

Cars! well, EVERY auto maker does what they have to in order to make cars they can make MORE money off of. European manufacturers are also NOT exempt from being greedy! BTW, I believe it was in the 60,s when Detroit really began to slag on the quality of their manufacturing. Because by the early 70,s many were started to get into the Japanese import cars, they ran better, they HELD UP better, and were MADE BETTER! Capitalism is capitalism, ANYWHERE!

Porsche continued to build race cars, and their flagship consumer offerings! OK, so does JBL build their STATEMENT speakers, their TOP SHELF consumer speakers, and their mass market products. And JBL happens to still make some REALLY GREAT PRO SPEAKERS TO THIS VERY DAY!

You just seem to contradict EVERY single statement you make, As I asked you before, WHO'S side are you on? MINE OR YOURS? :rotfl:

I brought into the discussion, the PREMIUM sound cards available for professional recording, semi pro use, and WHAT I USE WHICH isn't iPod. Widget showed how iPod can be used as a storage facility for lossless files, and with proper outboard gear, one CAN get High End sound from them.

You refuse to even acknowledge these things, let alone debate them with me, and that leads me to think you may not have a good understanding of what we are saying, If at all.

And, then, only EVERYTHING everyone mentions that you do answer about, IS JUNK according to you. I get the impression your the kind of person that IF it didn't emanate from your mouth, it doesn't exist, or isn't worth talking about, or can't be any good.

This is why some speak to you in the fashions they do. You draw fire on yourself.

Hey, it is YOU who kept harping about "audiophiles" using ONLY 33 1/3 LP,s! I showed you where the LP isn't the mega high quality product you say it is.

Nonetheless, MY system, MY digital playback gear, and MY music, TODAY sound great.

Right now, JBL is still in California, and yeah, they are leaving soon, but, I cannot stop this. IF I deem the new products coming from mexico unworthy, then I won't use them. But if they are, then I will, regardless of WHERE they are manufactured!

Oh, and BTW, YOUR Porsche or VW made Porsche, whatever is the case, was German made! Somehow, your NOT the staunch supporter of American made, even back in the days you liked better than today!

:D

scott fitlin
02-20-2010, 09:27 AM
Oh yes that Transcripter turntable has more than triple in price. Purchased in 1973.

Doom and gloom ?:)AHH, the turntables from 1973 and people paying ridiculous sums of money for them! Yeah, the domain of Moving mechanical parts, and WEAR AND TEAR!

Gotta LUV paying exorbitant prices for some thing no longer made, that the bearings, and rubber parts are worn out. ESPECIALLY if you can no longer get factory replacement parts for this item you just spent so lavishly on! OH JOY!

Let me ask you something! What does one do in the event that the MUSIC they play is no longer available on vinyl? And I like playing what I do! Sure I can get "audiophile" 180gr pressing of yesterdays music, but I want to play what is happening now!

I can't live doing what you do which is this>>>>> :banghead:

wolfshead
02-20-2010, 10:09 AM
You see, you fail to hear what many have said to you in this thread. iPod is a storage and playback device. YOU CAN, IF YOU WANT TO, get better quality devices, and MUCH higher playback quality. Again, I must reiterate my own statement, about 1969, and the 8 Track! People were at the beach, with their portable 8 tracks listening to music, and getting a tan. And some people also had/have SERIOUS audio systems at home to listen to. But, would be kind of hard to schlep a Hartsfield to the beach, ya know?

Cars! well, EVERY auto maker does what they have to in order to make cars they can make MORE money off of. European manufacturers are also NOT exempt from being greedy! BTW, I believe it was in the 60,s when Detroit really began to slag on the quality of their manufacturing. Because by the early 70,s many were started to get into the Japanese import cars, they ran better, they HELD UP better, and were MADE BETTER! Capitalism is capitalism, ANYWHERE!

Porsche continued to build race cars, and their flagship consumer offerings! OK, so does JBL build their STATEMENT speakers, their TOP SHELF consumer speakers, and their mass market products. And JBL happens to still make some REALLY GREAT PRO SPEAKERS TO THIS VERY DAY!

You just seem to contradict EVERY single statement you make, As I asked you before, WHO'S side are you on? MINE OR YOURS? :rotfl:

I brought into the discussion, the PREMIUM sound cards available for professional recording, semi pro use, and WHAT I USE WHICH isn't iPod. Widget showed how iPod can be used as a storage facility for lossless files, and with proper outboard gear, one CAN get High End sound from them.

You refuse to even acknowledge these things, let alone debate them with me, and that leads me to think you may not have a good understanding of what we are saying, If at all.

And, then, only EVERYTHING everyone mentions that you do answer about, IS JUNK according to you. I get the impression your the kind of person that IF it didn't emanate from your mouth, it doesn't exist, or isn't worth talking about, or can't be any good.

This is why some speak to you in the fashions they do. You draw fire on yourself.

Hey, it is YOU who kept harping about "audiophiles" using ONLY 33 1/3 LP,s! I showed you where the LP isn't the mega high quality product you say it is.

Nonetheless, MY system, MY digital playback gear, and MY music, TODAY sound great.

Right now, JBL is still in California, and yeah, they are leaving soon, but, I cannot stop this. IF I deem the new products coming from mexico unworthy, then I won't use them. But if they are, then I will, regardless of WHERE they are manufactured!

Oh, and BTW, YOUR Porsche or VW made Porsche, whatever is the case, was German made! Somehow, your NOT the staunch supporter of American made, even back in the days you liked better than today!

:D
I like today , There are several German car manufactures , they are very different , they develope different cars. Again you are trying to analize
me. Certainly I support American made , if it is quality in my opinion.

You are still referring to me , Why ? I have never referred to anyone's audio equipment as "junk " I am on no ones side , I am offering my opinon as
it applies to audio.

I am not a supporter of today's Ipods , I feel it is poor quality, that is my opinion. It appears that one cannot disagree here.

I would not began to compare Porsche with JBL. JBL was once revered
as a speaker manufacture , as Porche is today. JBL doing the 1960'S
was held in the same estem as Ferrari or Rolls Royce using cars as an example more Rolls Royce than Porsche. Not today ! That is my point.
Now you can disagree if you wish. Offer a counterpoint. I think many if not most of today's music producing audio gear has inferior sound unless one is willing to spend upwards to $60,000 !

The same applies to cars ,to match or outperform a 1970's Ferrari Daytona which sold for about $19,000 new , one would have to spend upwards
to $ 250,000! today , Where is the difference ?

A pair of Hartsfields $2000.00 , Marantz pre amp $ 280.00 a Marantz
power amp $280.00 Marantz 10B tuner $750.00 a Fairchild turntable , SME tone arm and catridge $270.00 , Revox tape deck $600.00
Total price :$ 4180.00 Dream system of the 1960's. A Ferrari cost 19,000
in 1960's. Taking in account that the Farrari is European and the weakness of the dollar and the audio listed is American we still come up with X times 13 , over 45,000 for the audio and over $247,00 for the Ferrari.

There is no free lunch !
;)

SEAWOLF97
02-20-2010, 10:52 AM
Let me start off with "I aint disagreeing with you Scotty" , just some side comments


You see, you fail to hear what many have said to you in this thread. iPod is a storage and playback device. YOU CAN, IF YOU WANT TO, get better quality devices, and MUCH higher playback quality. Again, I must reiterate my own statement, about 1969, and the 8 Track! People were at the beach, with their portable 8 tracks listening to music, and getting a tan. And some people also had/have SERIOUS audio systems at home to listen to. But, would be kind of hard to schlep a Hartsfield to the beach, ya know?
:D

Have been in Data processing since '75 ...computers and iPods are closely related...heck, a pod really is a little computer. Generational copies are a big deal in digital...every copy..even 100 down the line is the same as the first...if you run a pod or CD or DVD thru the same DAC , they should all sound identical...no matter what Wolf says.



You just seem to contradict EVERY single statement you make, As I asked you before, WHO'S side are you on? MINE OR YOURS? :rotfl:

:D

A few of us have noticed that he's on both sides of an argument.



You refuse to even acknowledge these things, let alone debate them with me, and that leads me to think you may not have a good understanding of what we are saying, If at all.

:D

He and M just make statements (from who knows where) , I ask for links or sources and they can't provide any.




And, then, only EVERYTHING everyone mentions that you do answer about, IS JUNK according to you. I get the impression your the kind of person that IF it didn't emanate from your mouth, it doesn't exist, or isn't worth talking about, or can't be any good.

This is why some speak to you in the fashions they do. You draw fire on yourself.
:D

yup, if we dont have a 10B ...well we just ain't hearing music.. (FM sux)



Hey, it is YOU who kept harping about "audiophiles" using ONLY 33 1/3 LP,s! I showed you where the LP isn't the mega high quality product you say it is.


OK...I like vinyl.
the jackets and programs are really nice , many never got moved to CD (many shouldn't), BUT high quality only appears infrequently on records....its a nostalgia thing , a closer to the media thing ,
an "enjoy the preening and care" thing.

High Quality ? sadly ..NO

I dupe my digi files & LP's to MD (with ATRAC S) High Quality ? YES (after I clean up the LP produced file)

scott fitlin
02-20-2010, 10:56 AM
Wolfshead, In the beginning of this entire thread, you claim there is NO MORE QUALITY AUDIO products. WE said to you yes there is. BUT THEY COST!

Now your telling us wshat we told you.

I know there is NO free lunch, but I am not asking for free lunch, either.

scott fitlin
02-20-2010, 11:08 AM
Let me start off with "I aint disagreeing with you Scotty" , just some side comments



Have been in Data processing since '75 ...computers and iPods are closely related...heck, a pod really is a little computer. Generational copies are a big deal in digital...every copy..even 100 down the line is the same as the first...if you run a pod or CD or DVD thru the same DAC , they should all sound identical...no matter what Wolf says.



A few of us have noticed that he's on both sides of an argument.



He and M just make statements (from who knows where) , I ask for links or sources and they can't provide any.



yup, if we dont have a 10B ...well we just ain't hearing music.. (FM sux)



OK...I like vinyl.
the jackets and programs are really nice , many never got moved to CD (many shouldn't), BUT high quality only appears infrequently on records....its a nostalgia thing , a closer to the media thing ,
an "enjoy the preening and care" thing.

High Quality ? sadly ..NO

I dupe my digi files & LP's to MD (with ATRAC S) High Quality ? YES (after I clean up the LP produced file)I like vinyl, too. But today it is no longer really a usable option to me. And TODAY when I do listen to the vinyl from when it was the mainstay playback medium, I REALLY do hear the deficiencies. The music is still good, and fun to hear, but the deficiencies are there, nonetheless

However, after hearing the level of quality able to be achieved with even a semi-pro under $400 EMU sound card, it is astounding. Then, professioinal cards like Metric Halo, at over 5 grand, and what I heard, no vinyl record has.

SEAWOLF97
02-20-2010, 11:16 AM
I like vinyl, too. But today it is no lnger really a usable option to me. And TODAY when I do listen to the vinyl from when it was the mainstay playback medium, I REALLY do hear the deficiencies. The music is still good, and fun to hear, but the deficiencies are there, nonetheless.

On the JBL Sessions LP set...even they mention that LP's were limited to 40(50)-15k response....the LF's were cut off to save space on the record and few can hear above 15k and master tapes didnt really go much higher either.

At that time , before synth music, the contra bass was the lowest frequency producing instrument in an orchestra, and it could do 42hz

Despite what others have said here...I can plug my pod into the main stereo system and get great Hi-Fi. :D

scott fitlin
02-20-2010, 11:42 AM
On the JBL Sessions LP set...even they mention that LP's were limited to 40(50)-15k response....the LF's were cut off to save space on the record and few can hear above 15k and master tapes didnt really go much higher either.

At that time , before synth music, the contra bass was the lowest frequency producing instrument in an orchestra, and it could do 42hz

Despite what others have said here...I can plug my pod into the main stereo system and get great Hi-Fi. :DExactly. And in order to provide for the burgeoning nightclub market beginning after the release Of SATURDAY NIGHT FEVER, record labels began putting out 12in singles, and some one sided 45 rpm 12in singles as promos for DJ,s so they could make a record that had better bass.

It worked, but, still, I have digital files, lossless, that have bass that TROUNCES what records had.

I know, myself, what can be gotten from iPod. Let me put it this way, while I was in Austin visiting my folks, they took me to the Lexus dealer, mom is getting a new car. Well, I loaded moms iPod with the Avatar soundtrack, and while while test driving, I plugged her iPod into the port, and we listenened to the 460L,s premium sound system, and you know what? IT SOUNDED GOOD! Dad liked it, mom liked it, and I liked it, even the car saleman like it too. WAY better than XM, FM, and for whatever reason, I like this better than CD!

andywin
02-20-2010, 11:48 AM
At that time , before synth music, the contra bass was the lowest frequency producing instrument in an orchestra, and it could do 42hz


Don't forget the Organ. A 32' pipe produces 16.4Hz and a 64' or stopped 32" would be 8.2Hz. Stopping the 64' would give 4.1Hz and combining a 64' and 42 2/3' pipes, both stopped would give 2Hz.
I'm not saying that vintage recording and replay technology was uthat capable though!

scott fitlin
02-20-2010, 12:02 PM
Don't forget the Organ. A 32' pipe produces 16.4Hz and a 64' or stopped 32" would be 8.2Hz. Stopping the 64' would give 4.1Hz and combining a 64' and 42 2/3' pipes, both stopped would give 2Hz.
I'm not saying that vintage recording and replay technology was uthat capable though!And even had we been capable to have such low frequency on vinyl, how many cartridges could actually track this without jumping out of the groove? NOT to mention rumble issues if you could track it.

NOTHING in our world is perfect! NOT even "THE GOLDEN AGE OF HiFi"!!!


:shock:

SEAWOLF97
02-20-2010, 12:02 PM
Scotty ...since you know sound cards & this thread is hopelessly OT ...I have a question .....keep in mind that money for discretionary pursuits aint being spent right now.

My Dell PC had the onboard AC97 setup...it hogged processor cycles. Replaced it with a SB Live 5.1 card and its been OK.

Picked up an Audigy2 ZS card some months ago, but have been too lazy to install it..

Is it worth the time & effort to swap it in ? things already sound pretty good.
(SB line out goes to a Technics H+ receiver to L-26's & Sonance MB-30's)

SEAWOLF97
02-20-2010, 12:07 PM
At that time , before synth music, the contra bass was the lowest frequency producing instrument in an orchestra, and it could do 42hz


Don't forget the Organ. A 32' pipe produces 16.4Hz and a 64' or stopped 32" would be 8.2Hz. Stopping the 64' would give 4.1Hz and combining a 64' and 42 2/3' pipes, both stopped would give 2Hz.

Andy..I was aware of that and that's why the note "in an orchestra" , just not too many pipe organs in an orchestra...that would be in the line of specailty recordings.

scott fitlin
02-20-2010, 12:12 PM
Scotty ...since you know sound cards & this thread is hopelessly OT ...I have a question .....keep in mind that money for discretionary pursuits aint being spent right now.

My Dell PC had the onboard AC97 setup...it hogged processor cycles. Replaced it with a SB Live 5.1 card and its been OK.

Picked up an Audigy2 ZS card some months ago, but have been too lazy to install it..

Is it worth the time & effort to swap it in ? things already sound pretty good.
(SB line out goes to a Technics H+ receiver to L-26's & Sonance MB-30's)The outboard cards for recording, right now that are within $ reach of most, and are the most popular among home recording enthusiasts and DJ/Producers are RME and EMU. Apogee as well, but Apogee and Apple don't always work well together, works better with Windows. RME and EMU work VERY well with Apple. If I didn't have a file this 20 year old DJ sent me, in which he used an EMU 1212, I wouldn't believe, but IT IS GOOOOD!

Seawolf, you would have to hear two recordings of the same thing, using your card and another to determine IF it is worth it to swap. Or, if you have a good pro dealer near you, maybe they can give you a demo of what a better card is capable of giving you. I think you would know what your hearing, and if it is superior to what you currently have.

As for this being OT, yes and no. From where I stand, YOUNG people and poeple of TODAY DO care about quality. The author of this thread did also say today NO ONE cares about quality. Oh yes we, they, us, and I do.

Allanvh5150
02-20-2010, 12:25 PM
I like vinyl, too. But today it is no longer really a usable option to me. And TODAY when I do listen to the vinyl from when it was the mainstay playback medium, I REALLY do hear the deficiencies. The music is still good, and fun to hear, but the deficiencies are there, nonetheless

However, after hearing the level of quality able to be achieved with even a semi-pro under $400 EMU sound card, it is astounding. Then, professioinal cards like Metric Halo, at over 5 grand, and what I heard, no vinyl record has.

So are you saying that vinyl is not good anymore? Why is it not a usable option for you? Sure it has pops and clicks but who cares about that...How many mediums have come and gone since the advent of vinyl? And they are still pressing the stuff. ipod was made as a portable medium and really has no place in an "audiophile" system. It whistles, squeels and buzzes more than a track played on a shortwave radio. I can tell the difffence between a digital file with my eyes closed as can many other people. However, if you wabt to listen to it feel free to do so. As for having to pay big money for a turntable and the parts wearing out, I dont really know where you are coming from. I purchased a turnatable about 15 years back and it is still mint, plays really well and has a very good sound. Cost around $1000. A freind of mine spent about $10000 back in the early 80's and that is still running perfectly. That is not my opinion, it is fact.

As for digital files being lossless? There is no such thing except with a record pressing. The disc on voyager will be playable in a billion years unless something damages it. Digital files always degrade over time, CD's do the same and DVD's are evn worse. But people dont really care about this because they have been taught that when it breaks, go buy another.

If someone has an opinion they do not need to site references or proove it in any other way. It is an opinion. My opinion is that the NSX was a failure based on sales. It looked pretty average, drove pretty well, had to be called the Acura in the US because everyone there likes a car to have a name for some reason. The Dino was quite at the other end of the sperctrum, performed pretty well, cost about 12 grand and yet today you are lucky to find a good one for under 100K! in a few years the ipod will have gone simply because someone will have found a way to store "music" and I use that term very loosely, more cheaply and will make millions from it. Hey, but that is just my opinion.:)

scott fitlin
02-20-2010, 12:36 PM
No I am not saying vinyl is not good anymore. I AM saying the vinyl medium does have flaws, and we know, and knew what they are. I am also saying I have digital files that in some cases does surpass what the older analog medium could provide.

I know they still press limited amounts of vinyl. BUT, the music I play, dance music, MOST of the material is NOT available on vinyl. For me, 1 out of 20 tracks I like, available on vinyl, if it is even on vinyl, is NOT enough to warrant this as a USABLE format to me, any longer.

Then, another thing to point out, is the fact that vinyl and digital sound different from each other. The voicing, and gain structure of my system, is different for vinyl, than what it is for digital. They are BOTH good, but, I as a business person, that uses music to earn my living, feel CONSISTENCY in my sound is JUST as important as having GREAT sound and GREAT music.

Oh, and let us not forget that even though your records will be playable in a billion years from now the frequency response will be different from a new vinyl record because of the wear in the grooves caused by the friction of the needle physically wearing down the groove walls. THIS won't happen to my files, however.

scott fitlin
02-20-2010, 12:50 PM
Allan, belt drive TT neeeds belts replaced, every so often. IF you use a TT in demanding situations, i.e.; HEAVY HOURS OF USAGE, the bearings can and do wear out. Pitch controls, as used in pro DJ use, or Radio station use, also wear out.

There is more going on in our world than just what either you or I, are doing!

SEAWOLF97
02-20-2010, 12:52 PM
Seawolf, you would have to hear two recordings of the same thing, using your card and another to determine IF it is worth it to swap. Or, if you have a good pro dealer near you, maybe they can give you a demo of what a better card is capable of giving you. I think you would know what your hearing, and if it is superior to what you currently .

Scotty - I don't record music or produce any (outside of burps/farts) , so my any criteria is mainly for playback..Tho sometimes I do audio editing on pre-existing material. Did see that CLabs has an EMU 1212 card for $130ish. It had a lot of functions that I'll never use.

I'm a believer that amps/speakers/media "of a era" generally sound best together, rather than mix or match.

scott fitlin
02-20-2010, 01:03 PM
Scotty - I don't record music or produce any (outside of burps/farts) , so my any criteria is mainly for playback..Tho sometimes I do audio editing on pre-existing material. Did see that CLabs has an EMU 1212 card for $130ish. It had a lot of functions that I'll never use.

I'm a believer that amps/speakers/media "of a era" sound best together, rather than mix or match.Yes, I agree with you, but I also say that at $130.00 people can afford better quality, too, IF they desire it. Again, this brand of sound card is GOOD, and has various price points.

I have said for a VERY long time now that speakers of an era work best with amps and electronics of the same period. Although there are exceptions to this, too.

I have Bryston amps, new ones, or relatively new. I have heard Bryston driving modern high quality speakers, and think the sound is GREAT. Yet, my Bryston 3B SST, I don't like on my vintage JBL horns, but I do like Crowns from that period driving my horns, OR a McIntosh of the period.

Kind of like running a 69 Corvette on todays gasolines. It will go, but the engine, if not modified for todays fuel, won't really operate properly, PING!

Allanvh5150
02-20-2010, 01:08 PM
No I am not saying vinyl is not good anymore. I AM saying the vinyl medium does have flaws, and we know, and knew what they are. I am also saying I have digital files that in some cases does surpass what the older analog medium could provide.

I know they still press limited amounts of vinyl. BUT, the music I play, dance music, MOST of the material is NOT available on vinyl. For me, 1 out of 20 tracks I like, available on vinyl, if it is even on vinyl, is NOT enough to warrant this as a USABLE format to me, any longer.

Then, another thing to point out, is the fact that vinyl and digital sound different from each other. The voicing, and gain structure of my system, is different for vinyl, than what it is for digital. They are BOTH good, but, I as a business person, that uses music to earn my living, feel CONSISTENCY in my sound is JUST as important as having GREAT sound and GREAT music.

Oh, and let us not forget that even though your records will be playable in a billion years from now the frequency response will be different from a new vinyl record because of the wear in the grooves caused by the friction of the needle physically wearing down the groove walls. THIS won't happen to my files, however.

When you say "play music for a living" I presume you meaning as a DJ, oops, MP3J. If so then it is really of no concern what method of playback you use for the simple fact that your audience wouldnt know the difference anyway. I recently had a reunion with a band that I worked with in the eighties. We had a DJ playing 80's vinyl during the breaks and to be perfectly honest, in the atmosphere we were playing, I couldnt tell the difference. Pity the system wasnt JBL as it was back in the day but it sounded pretty damn good.

The billion years bit was aimed at the fact that the disc would not be played, of course it will wear out, an unplayed disk will never wear out or degrade. But one thing I am wondering, where can you store a digital file so that it will be safe for eternity? As far as I am aware, there is no safe place. Everthing involves storing zero's and ones and these valuse are pretty easy to change. Maybe we could sore the digital stream on plastic cards with holes for ones and so on. Perfectly lossless but we would need a lot of plastic.

The real reason MP3J's use digital is because the disc spinning art has been relatively lost, files are very easy to manipulate and it involves a lot less effort and the files can be garnered from the internet for little or no cost, which by the way, as a professional musician, really pisses me off. So in reality it is all back to the original argument, it is all back to money.

scott fitlin
02-20-2010, 01:20 PM
Sorry, the ART of spinning has not been lost. It has morphed into spinning files. My attraction, which is a BUMPER CAR ride at Coney Island, uses music, and an awesome system, to take the ordinary to another level. That is a misnomer of many people, INCLUDING club owners themselves that people can't hear the difference! They can, and people come to my place and ride, JUST because they want to hear MY system, and what we play! I get compliments from clientele all the time. Anytime from Easter Sunday thru Labor Day, Allan, if you like, come hear my room for yourself.

See, now, in todays club market, besides tempo matching, and selecting tunes that blend well with each other, we also have music production equipment for making your OWN music, or remixes of any music ON THE FLY! Creativity is creativity. And some are better than others at what we do.

Native Instruments offers a really cool piece called Maschine, to produce your own music, or alter others music. If this is used by someone who is good, and has skill doing this, it can be awesome!

Just like food, two people can use the VERY same ingredients, yet produce two vastly different tasting dishes, and maybe 1 person is a REALLY outstanding cook, and the other not as proficient.

Unless I was buying a vinyl disc as a collectors item, Allan, why would I buy music TO NOT USE IT?

BTW, I PAY for my music because I BUY music. Things like Limewire are not good for me, even though may be free, lower bit rates don't work as well to my ears, I PREFER THE BETTER QUALITY, and I also have many WAV files, NOT just MP3. I understand some may debate the higher level of sonics of WAV to MP3, but, this is what it is, for me.

Beowulf57
02-20-2010, 02:05 PM
Okay, how about a note of humour...I've attached a zip file of an mp3 down-rezzed from wav to 8kbps/11KHz/mono of "Song of Reproduction". This is the audio quality possible within our file upload limits.:applaud: