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Loren42
02-08-2010, 01:01 PM
I have been doing some research, but still have many questions:

I know this is a bit subjective, but for HiFi, are high frequency compression horns a good driver pic? How do they compare to high quality dome tweeters with respect to distortion and clarity?

It appears that you can get a fairly wide frequency range with horns, which makes it easier to create a 2-way speaker. Also, horns appear to have a wider dispersion than many dome tweeters.

What are some of the downsides?

What effects do different horn types have when mated to a compression driver?

For instance, if you take a 2426H driver and mate it to a 2344A horn and then compare it to something like an A-480 that Yuichi Arai makes?

I would expect a different dispersion factor as well as a change in overall gain, but I suspect it is more complex than that.

timc
02-08-2010, 01:22 PM
Also, horns appear to have a wider dispersion than many dome tweeters.




Well....Not really. A horn have a dispersion given by its directivety.

A typical dome have 180 degree dispersion in its lower working area, and then gets more beamy the higher you get.

The downside? Way more difficult to get right, but the reward is great IMO.

-Tim

senor_mouse
02-08-2010, 08:04 PM
Hello ,

* are high frequency compression horns a good driver pic?

Yes .

* How do they compare to high quality dome tweeters with respect to distortion and clarity?

Depends on the horn , curve , material , and Hz , and driver too .

* It appears that you can get a fairly wide frequency range with horns, which makes it easier to create a 2-way speaker .

Yes , but it depends more on the crossover used and driver you select .

* What are some of the downsides?

- Good ones are expensive .
- Good drivers to match are expensive , general hard to find .
- Bass horns hard to build , and very big .

* What effects do different horn types have when mated to a compression driver?

- Old Altecs metal : Bad sound , very good dipersion , some people like .
- Old Altecs plastic : "Mantaray" , Better sound good dispersion , some people like .
- Old JBL metal : Dont like , sound "similar" to old Altec , some people like .
- New Tractrix wood : Excellent sound , but beams , not everybody likes .
- New Conic Metal : Havent heard , but I like more wood than metal .
- New Altec wood : Will try to build a Mantary clone .

Hope that help you .

:blink:

Loren42
02-08-2010, 09:20 PM
Here is my concept 4430 using my existing cabinets. I call it the P4430.

Uses my existing 2235H (note the new surrounds ;) ) in their pyramid style cabinet with a 2235H horn grafted onto the front.

The horn would actually be made out of wood, stained, and then finished. Driver would be likely be the 2426H.

I sort of like the looks, but the girlfriend sadly said that there is no way that will do. :blink:

Anyway, it was at least an exercise in concept.

http://www.mdbq.net/pyramid/p4430.jpg

Robh3606
02-08-2010, 09:36 PM
To properly time align the horn and woofer you need the horn baffle in front of the woofer baffle. Just like they are on a 4430. Keep that in mind. Read the AES article already linked in the posts to you.

Rob:)

Ian Mackenzie
02-09-2010, 12:38 AM
I have been doing some research, but still have many questions:

I know this is a bit subjective, but for HiFi, are high frequency compression horns a good driver pic? How do they compare to high quality dome tweeters with respect to distortion and clarity?

It appears that you can get a fairly wide frequency range with horns, which makes it easier to create a 2-way speaker. Also, horns appear to have a wider dispersion than many dome tweeters.

What are some of the downsides?

What effects do different horn types have when mated to a compression driver?

For instance, if you take a 2426H driver and mate it to a 2344A horn and then compare it to something like an A-480 that Yuichi Arai makes?

I would expect a different dispersion factor as well as a change in overall gain, but I suspect it is more complex than that.


You appear to have already researched some horn types..its really a case of you trying a few out for your self and seeing what works in your environment.

The 2344a was meant to be an improvement on the older Altec horns used in the 70's. As to their characteristics they solve a lot of typical horn sound issues. The A -480 is totally different being 90 x 40 with flat on axis response. As I said you really need to compare them

Ruediger
02-09-2010, 01:55 AM
Here is my concept 4430 using my existing cabinets. I call it the P4430.

Uses my existing 2235H (note the new surrounds ;) ) in their pyramid style cabinet with a 2235H horn grafted onto the front.

The horn would actually be made out of wood, stained, and then finished. Driver would be likely be the 2426H.

I sort of like the looks, but the girlfriend sadly said that there is no way that will do. :blink:

Anyway, it was at least an exercise in concept.



Technically that should fit. You will need to mount a protective grill in front of the bass, and that allows for a mounting plate under the horn which is as thick as the grill. If the horn is a bit behind the ideal position then the direction of radiation is tilted a bit upward.

If Your girlfriend does not like black horns show her the pics in the following thread: http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=26986

Ruediger

senor_mouse
02-09-2010, 04:52 AM
Beware of time aligment and high frequency response , also lower cut frequency of the horn must match near crossover frequency . If not you will end adding a supertweeter with Lpad directly to the amp .
Think of those issues also .

Sunny day in Viņa del Mar Chile .

felixx
02-09-2010, 05:05 AM
- Old Altecs metal : Bad sound , very good dipersion , some people like .




Bad sound because of the metal ringing or ....?
They have really very good dispersion.
An wood clone for 811,but ply not MDF I think will be a good choice.Maybe Yuichi Arai pages will be a good inspiration.

hjames
02-09-2010, 05:33 AM
Bad sound because of the metal ringing or ....?
They have really very good dispersion.
An wood clone for 811,but ply not MDF I think will be a good choice.Maybe Yuichi Arai pages will be a good inspiration.

Can you spare the URL for the Yuichi Arai pages?

pos
02-09-2010, 05:38 AM
Can you spare the URL for the Yuichi Arai pages?
http://www.geocities.jp/arai401204/Horn_Page/Horn_Speakers.html
http://www.geocities.jp/arai401204/Horn/A480/A480.html

Loren42
02-09-2010, 06:04 AM
To properly time align the horn and woofer you need the horn baffle in front of the woofer baffle. Just like they are on a 4430. Keep that in mind. Read the AES article already linked in the posts to you.

Rob:)

Hi,

The front baffle of the cabinet is angled back 3.8°. I originally did this because these are floor standing speakers and I wanted the angle of projection at 90° to the listener sitting on a sofa and that is how they work.

The intent with the horn is to put the throat of the horn at the same alignment point with the woofer as it is in the actual 4430 cabinet. In my cabinet the woofer is recessed about .55", so the horn needs to be recessed the same amount into the baffle.

Anyway, the whole idea was conceptional. I am looking at alternatives to my current 3-way cabinet (same basic cabinet, but with a mid and tweeter where the horn is now), which has a number of issues.

Currently, the 3-way speaker alignment is not time aligned. Even though the woofer has a pretty shallow basket, the Audax mid and the Morel tweeter are even shallower.

I'll check out that read, thanks!

senor_mouse
02-09-2010, 06:18 AM
Bad sound because of the metal ringing or ....?
They have really very good dispersion.
An wood clone for 811,but ply not MDF I think will be a good choice.Maybe Yuichi Arai pages will be a good inspiration.

Exactly metal ringing not for high end , but may be do not bother if you listen 3-4 meters away , so Old Altecs very good in theater application . Not intended for home , but lovely stuff . Metal ringing will drive you crazy if the driver has enough energy to make it resonate . Other issue is a "metal tone" a honk , not very nice in metal ones .
Wood clone for 811 maybe good , but very hard to manufacture , expensive . Better couple a 802 8G with some tractrix or conic . If you concern about beaming , better clone the little mantaray and match it with 1" driver .

Loren42
02-09-2010, 06:18 AM
Read the AES article already linked in the posts to you.

Rob:)

That link from the other thread seems to be a dead end.

Earl K
02-09-2010, 06:46 AM
That link from the other thread seems to be a dead end.
Try this ; The Link is now going to the Complete Thread ( ie; the AES Paper on the 4430 ) (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=75815#post75815).


:
Originally Posted by Robh3606 http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=278430#post278430)
To properly time align the horn and woofer you need the horn baffle in front of the woofer baffle. Just like they are on a 4430. Keep that in mind. Read the AES article already linked in the posts to you.

Rob:)


Hi,
,,,,, snip ,,,,,,,
The intent with the horn is to put the throat of the horn at the same alignment point with the woofer as it is in the actual 4430 cabinet. In my cabinet the woofer is recessed about .55", so the horn needs to be recessed the same amount into the baffle.

- It appears that you don't understand acoustic alignment issues .

<> cheers

Loren42
02-09-2010, 07:34 AM
Try this ; The Link is now going to the Complete Thread ( ie; the AES Paper on the 4430 ) (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=75815#post75815).



- It appears that you don't understand acoustic alignment issues .

<> cheers

Thank you for the link!

As far as understanding acoustic alignment issues, can you help me understand what I am missing?

Ruediger
02-09-2010, 07:37 AM
- It appears that you don't understand acoustic alignment issues .

<> cheers

???

Ruediger

Loren42
02-09-2010, 08:03 AM
???

Ruediger

Either I don't know something about time alignments or more likely I did not express my understanding of it clearly.

JeffW
02-09-2010, 08:25 AM
Either I don't know something about time alignments or more likely I did not express my understanding of it clearly.

I think the part about recessing the horn flange back into the baffle to match the 2235 recess is what did it. The voice coils of the drivers are what you want to align, not the front edge of the horn with the front edge of the woofer. That's why Rob mentioned that the horn baffle needed to be further forward, not recessed back.

At least that's the vibe I'm picking up.

Earl K
02-09-2010, 08:28 AM
As far as understanding acoustic alignment issues, can you help me understand what I am missing?

- If you're simply cloning the physical layouts for a project derived from the 4430 , then you appear to be good to go & aren't missing anything .

- OTOH, if you change woofer type / or horn type /or driver type / or crossover point / you'll need to start from scratch ( as far as physical layouts ) .

- ie; You'll need to impulse test your components to achieve a best fit "Time Alignment" ( of the frequencies within the crossover area, say 1/2 octave either side of the chosen point ) .
- This must be done with the network in place so that it's effects are included .
- Physical movement of the components can make up for some of the measured offset .
- Adding electrical components ( poles & zeros in the network ) can add a bit of "delay" .
- Subtracting electrical components ( poles & zeros in the network ) will reduce delay.
- Choosing a different crossover point will "shift" the acoustic center ( which is frequency dependant ) forwards or backwards / when dealing with such heavy coned woofers like the 2235 or le14 .

>< cheers