Value of Fixer-Upper 4425s?

[Vercus]

Hello all,
While visiting a local flea market, I saw a set of 4425s tucked into the corner! They were facing the wall, and on the back of one cab was marked "horn bad". Both woofers also need to be re-foamed of course. There was no price on them, and the vendor selling them wasn't there that day, so I couldn't buy them, even though I wanted to! I was told to come back next weekend, when the seller would be there. I was promised they would still be there.

I have two questions:
1. What would be an appropriate price to pay for these? The cabs are kinda scratched, but solid. Blue grilles are present, and everything is there, but as mentioned, three out of the four drivers have issues.

2. What all would be involved in replacing the tweeter diaphragm? Is this really hard to do? I've never replaced horn diaphragms before. I did re-foam an older set of Advents, as well as a set of Bose 901s (all 18 drivers!) and both sets worked perfectly. So, I'm not too worried about the re-foaming part. Unless JBL's are somehow harder to do than the others? I know the Advents had a wide voice coil gap, which made it easier.

Any advice / information from someone whose been there before would be greatly appreciated! I'm planning on going to the flea market again this Saturday to check in on them. They were off in a disorganised corner turned around, so I don't think too many people are going to be checking them out. Plus, most people coming there are just interested in cheap junk.

I've never heard a set of 4425's before, but read great reviews of them. The only JBL's I've owned were a set of Jubals, which I didn't care for only because of the sound of the midrange (papery). However, I have owned Klipsch Cornwalls and LaScalas.

Thanks a lot,
Jon

[speakerdave]

My hunch is you are going to get these for a price that will not approach the limit of value (don't look too eager!).

You can ballpark the cost of having the one compression driver repaired by finding it's model number at JBL Pro and costing it out at the Orange County Speaker website.

The refoaming you can do with foams from Rick Cobb (here)/Loony Tunes (ebay). Less than $30, I should think. Cabinet restoration depends on what you want and how you go about it.

Until recently the price of a set ready to go was $700-900, but lately I've noticed sellers are trying to push that to over $1000. How successful they are I couldn't say. I wouldn't pay that, mostly because it approachs the true price of 4430's. For cash out of hand you could pay as much as $300, but I wouldn't pay that, because that's like giving the seller your time and labor. I would try to get them for $50 each and would go as high as $100, and if that didn't move them, "see ya." But that's just me.

By the way, the 4425 is one of the JBL's I haven't heard that I would like to. It was used in the movie "High Fidelity" with a Sansui integrated used as a pre and McIntosh MC30's.

The horn driver is the 2416H. The woofer is the 2214H.

[Vercus]

Hello Dave,
Thanks for the advice. I did find some re-foam kits for the woofers. I was surprised that one of them didn't include dust caps or shims. I always thought that you were supposed to remove the dust cap and shim the woofer while re-foaming it?

As far as the tweeter, I've found replacement diaphragms ranging anywhere from $45-75 for aftermarket or around $170 for JBL. Any thoughts on whether the JBL one is really that much better? Or are you just paying for the name? Anyone with any experience with aftermarket diaphragms?

I'm glad to hear your thoughts about price. I was thinking the same thing- hoping to get them for around $100. That makes the whole project more doable. I certainly wouldn't be able or willing to pay $300 for a set of speakers needing that much work.

I'll keep everyone up to date.
Thanks,
Jon

[toddalin]

Hello Dave,
Thanks for the advice. I did find some re-foam kits for the woofers. I was surprised that one of them didn't include dust caps or shims. I always thought that you were supposed to remove the dust cap and shim the woofer while re-foaming it?

As far as the tweeter, I've found replacement diaphragms ranging anywhere from $45-75 for aftermarket or around $170 for JBL. Any thoughts on whether the JBL one is really that much better? Or are you just paying for the name? Anyone with any experience with aftermarket diaphragms?

I'm glad to hear your thoughts about price. I was thinking the same thing- hoping to get them for around $100. That makes the whole project more doable. I certainly wouldn't be able or willing to pay $300 for a set of speakers needing that much work.

I'll keep everyone up to date.
Thanks,
Jon


For the condition they sound like they are in, $300 would be at the high end. Maybe half of that would be a good price.

If you don't use a JBL diaphram, the speakers will not sound the same. However, depending on..., they may sound different even if you do. Best to change both at once.

No one on this site would ever say to use anything other than genuine JBL driver/speaker parts..., even if they don't.

[speakerdave]

. . . . I did find some re-foam kits for the woofers. I was surprised that one of them didn't include dust caps or shims. I always thought that you were supposed to remove the dust cap and shim the woofer while re-foaming it?. . . .

Rick Cobb supplies a 30 Hz tone for centering the woofer while you are gluing the surround to the frame; that saves all the business with the dust caps and voice coil spacers. Lot's of people have used this method effectively. But, it's up to you.


. . . . As far as the tweeter, I've found replacement diaphragms ranging anywhere from $45-75 for aftermarket or around $170 for JBL. Any thoughts on whether the JBL one is really that much better? Or are you just paying for the name? Anyone with any experience with aftermarket diaphragms . . . .

Yes, you are paying for the "name." What is the "name"? A reputation for good design, heavy investment in engineering and quality materials, careful quality control, stateside manufacturing, and sustaining serviceability for equipment for 30-40 years.

Jim Lansing and successors had a different approach to high fidelity from Paul Klipsch. It's a matter of starting with high quality components and integrating them into a well-engineered system. I don't think JBL ever incorporated a siren into a speaker.

[toddalin]

I don't think JBL ever incorporated a siren into a speaker.


I don't know about sirens (wouldn't suprise me), but crosswalk indicators (075s) and fog horns (375s). ;)

[1audiohack]

Yes, you are paying for the "name." What is the "name"? A reputation for good design, heavy investment in engineering and quality materials, careful quality control, stateside manufacturing, and sustaining serviceability for equipment for 30-40 years.



Well said! You're my new best friend.

[speakerdave]

I don't know about sirens (wouldn't suprise me), but crosswalk indicators (075s) and fog horns (375s). ;)

I think there was also a boxcar counter. Of course, they were re-purposings of pieces designed for audio, which because of their extraordinary quality and durability were selected for special applications.:)

[speakerdave]

Well said! You're my new best friend.
:cheers:

[Zilch]

$300 for 4425s?

In a Berkeley minute, and they'd be playing by tomorrow, too.... :thmbsup:

[Mr. Widget]

$300 for 4425s?

In a Berkeley minute, and they'd be playing by tomorrow, too.... :thmbsup:Yeah, and we'd see you post a pic of a Sawzall cutting through the speaker to mount a new AR dome tweeter in it. :duck:


Happy New Year Zilch! :bouncy:


Widget

[Zilch]

Nah, that action's reserved anymore.... ;)

Happy New Year, Widget,

And a tip of the Barbie SawZall to ya! :D

[Vercus]

Well, I'm off to the flea market. Hopefully the guy's here this week. Vendors have the habit of only showing when they feel like it. Last week 2/3 of it was closed!

Wish me luck...

-Jon

[Vercus]

Well, I'm back, and successful! I got 'em for $200. I hooked up the one that said "BAD HORN" on the back, and saw the midrange and HF dials were turned all the way down. I turned them to the middle, and the horn works fine!

So, no tweeter diaphragm needed! I'll check the other one too, just in case they were labelled backwards, but so far, so good!

-Jon

EDIT: I just tested the second one, and all is well! All drivers work! So, now to order a re-foam kit from Rick. What is the best way to do that?

[Mr. Widget]

EDIT: I just tested the second one, and all is well! All drivers work! So, now to order a re-foam kit from Rick. What is the best way to do that?

Congratulations!

This thread should give you all the info needed plus Rick's contact info: Resurround Step-By-Step (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=469)


Widget

[speakerdave]

Good score. See the top (sticky) thread under Lansing DIY.

[Vercus]

Hello again,
I ordered the surround kit from Rick Cobb on ebay, so I'll be looking forward to re-foaming them this week!

I'll read the sticky Dave mentioned, as well as the surround step by step.

Thanks everyone!
-Jon

[macaroonie]

Welcome and a Happy new year. A good score thats for sure , and now we need pics , there are some talented re finishers here. Lets get them cabs ship shape :D

[speakerdave]

. . . . I'll read the sticky Dave mentioned, as well as the surround step by step . . . .

They are the same thing. Widget and I were posting at the same time.

[Vercus]

Here's some pics. The speakers were stacked on top of each other, so the bottom one has a fair amount of scratches on the top from the top one being spun around.

The other one's not quite as bad, but neither are exactly pretty. You can't really see it, but the foam is indeed peeling away. The other one's worse. Re-foam kits are on the way.

What type of wood is used in the veneer? Oak?

-Jon

[Fred Sanford]

Looks like black walnut to me, not oak. Nice grab, I'd have certainly snatched them for that price.

je

[BMWCCA]

Great snag. :applaud:

There's a nice long, recent, thread on Audiokarma about restoration of a pair of 4425s: http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=255177&highlight=4425

[toddalin]

Well, I'm back, and successful! I got 'em for $200. I hooked up the one that said "BAD HORN" on the back, and saw the midrange and HF dials were turned all the way down. I turned them to the middle, and the horn works fine!

So, no tweeter diaphragm needed! I'll check the other one too, just in case they were labelled backwards, but so far, so good!

-Jon

EDIT: I just tested the second one, and all is well! All drivers work! So, now to order a re-foam kit from Rick. What is the best way to do that?


That's a good price for all working components, even if woofers need new foams. ;)

I recently sold the pair to the Duffinator for (IIRC) $400 that needed foams and one needed some cabinet work. The buyer restored them and they now look great. I never got to hear them, but he raves about them now.

[Zilch]

Duff even reversed one of his.

It was quite an adventure to witness.

And Bryan showed us how good they can look.

[JBL Blue was part of that process.... :thmbsup: ]

[BMWCCA]

Duff even reversed one of his.Yeah, at least the ones in this thread are Right and Left!

[toddalin]

Yeah, at least the ones in this thread are Right and Left!


He got a left and right from me. :)

One of the cabinets had been "bumped" on the corner and rather than fix the cabinet/veneer, he obtained another cabinet. But it was for the other side. So he removed the horn nount plate from the one he got from me and put it on the third cabinet he had obtained. I guess that this was easier in the long run.

You can barely see it in the front upper right corner:
http://www.largescaleonline.com/eimages/lsolpics/Team_Member_Pics/toddalin/Concrete_Rocks/New_JBLs002.jpg

[BMWCCA]

He got a left and right from me. :)It's all coming back to me now! Self-inflicted punishment on Duff's part. That was a bit of an ordeal. ;)

[SpeakerLabFan]

Nice grab, congratulations and good luck with the refoaming and cabinet work.

I picked up a clean pair of 4425s a few weeks ago, and I am REALLY enjoying them in my bedroom system. Here's a picture:

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o240/speakerlabfan/records/4425003.jpg




By the way, the 4425 is one of the JBL's I haven't heard that I would like to. It was used in the movie "High Fidelity" with a Sansui integrated used as a pre and McIntosh MC30's.



I knew about the Sansui integrated but didn't know he had a pair of 4425s, very cool. Ok, now I have to pull out the VHS copy and look at this scene ...unless maybe it's on youtube or a still is posted...?

I might be close to recreating this, as I have a Sansui AU-20000 and a McIntosh MC2205 in the rotation, although just using the Sansui Integrated at this time.

[speakerdave]

I'm not sure which scene it was or if you see everything in the one scene. It may have been after his GF left and his friend from the store came over while he was reorganizing his record collection autobiographically/chronologically. I'm not sure the Sansui even has pre-outs, but it and the Mac's were sitting on the same shelf. Of course you are not hearing any of it in the movie, but the set designer or his consultant knew what was up with hi fi gear. It was our web guy Don McRitchie who first pointed out the JBL's in this movie. The next time I watched it I tried to ferret out the rest of the system.

[Fred Sanford]

I'm not sure which scene it was or if you see everything in the one scene. It may have been after his GF left and his friend from the store came over while he was reorganizing his record collection autobiographically/chronologically. I'm not sure the Sansui even has pre-outs, but it and the Mac's were sitting on the same shelf. Of course you are not hearing any of it in the movie, but the set designer or his consultant knew what was up with hi fi gear. It was our web guy Don McRitchie who first pointed out the JBL's in this movie. The next time I watched it I tried to ferret out the rest of the system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQvOnDlql5g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQvOnDlql5g)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zu1V3R-Jpwo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zu1V3R-Jpwo)

[Vercus]

Speakerlabfan,
Thanks for the encouragement. I'll be getting the surrounds tomorrow, as they're at the post office. I'll get right to work on them, and let you know how I make out.

I also picked up some lemon oil with beeswax to spruce up the cabs a bit. Sure, it's not going to get the scratches out, but at least it will help re-hydrate the wood and make them look better overall. Any ideas how to deal with the scratches anyone?

-Jon

[SpeakerLabFan]

I'm not sure which scene it was or if you see everything in the one scene. It may have been after his GF left and his friend from the store came over while he was reorganizing his record collection autobiographically/chronologically. I'm not sure the Sansui even has pre-outs, but it and the Mac's were sitting on the same shelf. Of course you are not hearing any of it in the movie, but the set designer or his consultant knew what was up with hi fi gear. It was our web guy Don McRitchie who first pointed out the JBL's in this movie. The next time I watched it I tried to ferret out the rest of the system.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQvOnDlql5g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQvOnDlql5g)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zu1V3R-Jpwo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zu1V3R-Jpwo)

Great stuff guys, thanks. Rob's 4425s look right at home surrounded by piles of records in that first clip. and from the second clip and the still, I remember now that it was an earlier model Sansui integrated - looks like an AU-9900?


Speakerlabfan,
Thanks for the encouragement. I'll be getting the surrounds tomorrow, as they're at the post office. I'll get right to work on them, and let you know how I make out.

I also picked up some lemon oil with beeswax to spruce up the cabs a bit. Sure, it's not going to get the scratches out, but at least it will help re-hydrate the wood and make them look better overall. Any ideas how to deal with the scratches anyone?

-Jon

Good luck Vercus! I think the sooner the better with the woofers so that you can start enjoying them. The Lemon oil will certainly help, I'm always happy with results - I think the rehydrating can fill in the smaller scratches. Be sure to check out the AK restoration thread (http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/sho...highlight=4425)referenced here earlier, those cabinets were in the same general condition as yours and I think Duffinator did a great job with them.

[speakerdave]

The Mac could be (and probably is) a 240, since there is only one chassis. Unlikely there is a second one behind. Part of the amp is obscured by the lamp. In the obscured position in a 240 would be an output tube; in an MC30 a PS capacitor. Anyway, thanks for the clips.

[macaroonie]

Quote......I also picked up some lemon oil with beeswax to spruce up the cabs a bit. Sure, it's not going to get the scratches out, but at least it will help re-hydrate the wood and make them look better overall. Any ideas how to deal with the scratches anyone?




I doubt that lemon oil on its own will do the trick. Why not consider a re veneer. There are plenty of threads here on that subject but the iron on type is simple to use and gives good results. You will not notice the extra thickness on the cabinet at all.
Is it Oakwood veneers that many here have used in the USA , with good results.
I cant recall who but someone here did a rescue job on some 4430's. As I recall the thread had plenty detailed pics.
I tried a search but nada .... Anyone help ?
Go for it son you know it makes sense :D

[toddalin]

Speakerlabfan,
Any ideas how to deal with the scratches anyone?

-Jon

Old English Scratch Cover. Won't get rid of them but will blend them into the wood.

[Vercus]

I got one woofer done tonight. I'll put it in the cab Sunday and check it out, then take care of the second one. Should be going by Monday.
-Jon

[Vercus]

Hello,
I put the woofer in the cab last night and it sounds great! I'm working on the second one today. Looking at it, it appears to have been re-foamed once already! However, the surround is already beginning to crack at spots.

I'm surprised it's wearing so quickly if it was already re-foamed, and also worried it might make my job a little harder. We'll see.

-Jon

[Vercus]

I've finished them up and have been enjoying them for the last few days. Initial impressions are very good! These definitely sound better than the Klipsch LaScalas and Cornwalls I've had in the past. They're smoother and less fatiguing. I can see why these speakers are so well reviewed. The Klipsch stuff used to tire my ears out, but these never do.

Initially, I thought I might try to sell them for a profit, but that's not going to happen! I think some other speakers are going to be up for sale instead.

Thanks to everyone here for the advice. As far as the cabs go, I'm not a woodworker, so I really don't think I could re-veneer them myself without some significant guidance. So far, I've just used lemon oil with beeswax. While it did rejuvenate the wood, the scratches are of course still there. Still they sound awesome so I'm thrilled to have them!

-Jon

[Mr. Widget]

The Klipsch stuff used to tire my ears out, but these never do.Obviously you are not worthy of Klipsch loudspeakers. The true Klipsch lover can withstand much aural abuse. :rotfl:


Initially, I thought I might try to sell them for a profit, but that's not going to happen! I think some other speakers are going to be up for sale instead.:bouncy:


Widget

[SpeakerLabFan]

Still they sound awesome so I'm thrilled to have them!


I think that's the bottom line. Great that you are able to quickly fix 'em up and enjoy them. :applaud:

I'm not surprised that these are now keepers. They are fairly efficient, I really like these with tube sources. :thmbsup:

[Vercus]

Hello,
I only have one piece of tube gear- an old Curtis Mathes power amp from a hi-fi console. It's been modified to run stand alone- fitted with conventional power cord, RCA ins, and 5 way binding posts. However, despite all that work the previous owner did, he never recapped it! So, it needs to be totally re-capped and serviced, and I don't know how to do that.

Is there anyone you guys would recommend to do it? It's not a high-end amp, so I wouldn't want to put a ton of money into it. However, I don't have the money to buy a $1000 high end amp, so perhaps fixing this up would be my only option to have tubes right now.

-Jon

[louped garouv]

depending on where you live, you may have a fair amount of used musical instrument dealers in your area.

if you know anyone who frequents those spots or works at one, ask them if they happen to know who they send tube gear to for servicing.

I've found a few very good local techs that way.

[macaroonie]

Thanks to everyone here for the advice. As far as the cabs go, I'm not a woodworker, so I really don't think I could re-veneer them myself without some significant guidance.
-Jon

From the oakwood veneers website

Iron On Veneer / PVA Glue Method

An alternative to using contact cement when traditional press methods aren’t available is this method using white or yellow PVA glue and a standard household iron. This process will help you achieve a better glue bond and allows for the use of 10 mil paperbacked or raw veneer which can save you money. Follow these steps for best results.

Surface Preparation
The surface or substrate you are veneering must be clean and flat. MDF, particle board or cabinet grade plywood are all satisfactory substrates. If applying veneer over a hardwood substrate, be sure all finish is removed and repair any gouges or scratches that might telegraph through the new veneer. It is not advisable to veneer over old veneer as the heat and moisture generated in this process may actually cause the old veneer to delaminate.

Glue Application
You can use either white glue or yellow woodworking glue. It is recommended when you use yellow woodworking glue to thin it with 10% water to allow easier spreading as it can be very thick. With a brush or roller coat the back of the veneer and the substrate with glue. If you are rolling the glue a foam roller applicator works well. In almost all cases you should apply two coats of glue to the substrate because some of the first coat will soak into the surface. Be very careful not to get any glue on the face of the veneer as this will surely be a problem during the finishing process. Once applied, allow the glue to dry to the touch. The yellow glue will probably dry quicker but as a general rule, wait 20 to 30 minutes. An important thing to remember is to apply even, thin coats of glue. Generally speaking, you want to end up with approximately 6 to 8 mils ( 1 mil = 1/1000” ) of glue thickness.

Ironing Veneer to Substrate
Place the veneer on the substrate and position accordingly. Unlike contact cement which bonds on contact, the veneer can be allowed to make contact with the substrate while positioning. Use a lightweight cotton material between the veneer and the face of the iron. An old bed sheet or cotton t-shirt work well for this purpose. With your iron set on a high heat setting, begin to iron the veneer from the center out using a slow and deliberate pace. The cloth should prevent the hot iron from scorching the face of the veneer. Keep moderate downward pressure on the iron as you move it across the surface. Make sure you have covered every square inch of surface and examine the veneer for any loose spots that may not be bonded. If there are any areas that appear as though they aren’t bonded to the substrate, just go back over them with the iron. Allow this assembly to cool for 2 hours before trimming the veneer to finished size. Allow 24 hours for glue to fully cure before doing any finishing.

Finishing Veneer:
Veneer can be finished just like any hardwood. The first step is proper sanding starting with a medium grit paper followed by a fine grit paper. This can be done with an electric sander if you are confident enough or by hand if you are not. Remove all sanding residue with a brush or tack cloth. From this point you can either stain the wood or finish with a clear finish. For finishing tips consult our website at www.oakwoodveneer.com or call with specific questions at (800) 426-6018.
www.oakwoodveneer.com


That about covers it but to recap -------------

Clean and thoroughly degrease the old veneer surface to remove any old oils etc. Probably a good idea to scuff sand the surface also. Wipe clean

Fill any dings etc and also you have a little corner damage. You can use 2 pack car body filler for this and then sand flat. Wipe clean

Follow the process above. It is a good idea to do a few small test pieces just to get the hang of it.

Best to do the sides first and then the top and bottom.

Finish according to taste but if you are using Walnut an oil finish is normal and it can be applied with fine steel wool. Minwax

Your tool requirements are Mini roller with gloss paint head , steel rule or suitable straight edge. Xacto or similar craft knife with NEW blade , Sanding block and some 320 paper , Household iron.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2an-k5P_n7k


Also here for some tips although I used contact cement


http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=17238&highlight=backyard+box+building&page=6 From post 80 onwards

Take your time and you will be rewarded with a spanking new set of speakers and the glow from having done it yourself :)

[toddalin]

You could always just skip the veneer, at least for now, and fill them and paint them.

Our L200 cabinets required massive repair and I certainly didn't want to deal with all that veneer let alone what to do with the front edges that were messed up.

I made black grills, dyed the side grills black, filled and radiused the front edges, painted the cabinets utility grey, and my wife did a faux-finish on them. This goes much better with our decor and look far more modern than the original veneer and grill color.
http://www.largescaleonline.com/eimages/lsolpics/Team_Member_Pics/toddalin/speaker1.jpg

These L112s actually have perfect original cabinets under the paint. But again, the wife was more interested in decor and I was interested in domestic bliss as this wouldn't change the sound of the speakers.
http://www.largescaleonline.com/eimages/lsolpics/Team_Member_Pics/toddalin/L112s.jpg

[Vercus]

Macaroonie,
In your post it mentions not to re-veneer over the existing veneer. This causes me pause, as I don't feel qualified to remove the old veneer cleanly and re-veneer it. I'd be too afraid of butchering the cabs. I think for now, I'll just leave them as is.

-Jon

[Vercus]

Well, I may not have tubes, but I DO have a pretty groovy vintage solid state piece- a Marantz 4270 Quadradial receiver! It was my Dad's originally, and he sold it to me. I just pulled it out and hooked it up to check it out. It still works well, but most of the lights are burned out. Where can I get light bulbs for it?

It's a great sounding piece, and I'd like to use it, but all the tuner bulbs are out, as well as one or two of the source ones as well, so it looks kinda gloomy!

Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks!
-Jon

[Mr. Widget]

It still works well, but most of the lights are burned out. Where can I get light bulbs for it?There are people who offer them up on eBay. I have been told not to replace any working lamps as the new ones do not last as long as the originals. I have both originals and replacements in my 2275 and you can't tell the difference.


Widget

[macaroonie]

Macaroonie,
In your post it mentions not to re-veneer over the existing veneer. This causes me pause, as I don't feel qualified to remove the old veneer cleanly and re-veneer it. I'd be too afraid of butchering the cabs. I think for now, I'll just leave them as is.

-Jon


Jon , many here have done just as I am suggesting without any issues , however if it is a worry for you then just use contact adhesive as I did.