DIY "4345" Project

[4313B]

Yet another one of these "4345" threads. :cool: I'm reposting this because I was asked to.

I decided to whip up a pair of DIY 4345's this past spring. I could post a bunch of reasons along with a ton of detail but I really need to get back to more pressing tasks at hand so I'll just post the pictures I happened to take at various points.

I suppose it would have been nice to do a full photoshoot of the whole process but my passions lay elsewhere during the six month period and I just wanted them done so these are the pictures I ended up with. I didn't even take pictures of the networks or the back with the access panel open but I have to take these apart in a few weeks so I'll take those pictures then.

The original components were going to be:

2245H
2122H
2445J/2311/L94 (aquaplased)
2405
Charge-coupled, bi-amp only 3144/3145 equivalent networks

And they ended up being:

2245H
2123H
2445J/2311/L94 with D8R2452H-SL diaphragms
2405H
Charge-coupled, bi-amp only 4344 Mk II networks that really should be optimized for the 2445/D8R2452H-SL combo.
4344 Mk II network (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=243739#post243739)

All the components are fresh with brand new recones and diaphragms.

I could be mistaken since I can't compare them directly but I think the tricked out 4355's with charge coupled equivalent networks sound a wee bit better. And that's very probably because the 4344 Mk II network is optimized for the 1.75-inch compression driver which has a wee bit less bottom end and a wee bit more top end than the 4-inch compression driver. In other words, "tilt". :D

In any case, I'll be moving on to the 4345 equivalent networks with the 2122H's and 2421B's as well as 2445J's in a few weeks after I get the rest of the 4355 networks out the door as promised. I'm extremely pleased with the tricked out 4355's but that's another thread I suppose.

[4313B]

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[4313B]

Wow, that looks great. I particularly like the metal lens.I should have dusted it before shooting the pic though. :rotfl:

[dkalsi]

Simply stunning!!!

[dkalsi]

I didn't even take pictures of the networks or the back with the access panel open but I have to take these apart in a few weeks so I'll take those pictures then.


In any case, I'll be moving on to the 4345 equivalent networks with the 2122H's and 2421B's as well as 2445J's in a few weeks (I've already got over a hundred and fifty brand new data files) after I get the rest of the 4355 networks out the door as promised.

Why do you plan on taking them apart? Testing different components?

Additionally, I cannot thank you enough for sharing all that you do here at the forums - you help and contributions are much appreciated.

[yggdrasil]

Fantastic work beneath all that dust!

[boputnam]

Wow, that looks great. I particularly like the metal lens.:applaud:

Pretty incredible. Can you share a pic of the pair, in their working position? :)

[JBLCanuck]

I should have dusted it before shooting the pic though. :rotfl:


Just Beautiful Giskard... you're very talented :)

[Wardsweb]

Wow ! Those are SAWEEEET! Very well executed. Something to be very proud of.

[Doc Mark]

Good Morning, 4313B, and All,

Simply outstanding work, Sir!! Very well done, and absolutely lovely, indeed!! If ANYTHING would tempt us away from our beloved L300's, it would be a project like you have shared with us here!! :applaud::applaud:
Thanks, again, for sharing your talents with us, 4313B, and here's to many great years of wonderful listening to these lovely JBL-based speakers!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[Eaulive]

I'm really envious of those woodworking skills.

I never was good for this kind of stuff, I have excellent knowledge of electronics and I love to design and build stuff, audio or else, but I have no skill at all to build nice enclosures or cabinets for my creations.

I have a DIY power amp that is mounted on a piece of plywood, from power cord to speaker outputs, all the components are screwed on the board, no covers :D
I have speaker boxes that were never painted or finished in any way, a bench power supply with all it's innards tie-wrapped together....

It all works good, but looks like :barf:

[dkalsi]

I'm really envious of those woodworking skills.


I too am envious. And there are quite a few of these talented people here: 4313B, Mr. Widget, John W, Saeman, JBL Canuck, Woodbanks, etc. to name a few.

Just unbelievable workmanship.

I've always wanted one of the classic JBL monitors and hence decided to build my own. I remember when I started my project, I said "I can certianly do the construction" <--foot in my mouth. The one thing that I have learned while building my 4345s (still in construction) is that woodworking probably requires more patience than any other hobby. You just simply can't rush anything. Everything has to be perfectly planned out. I tried to do that to the best of my ability, but unless you don't do this type of work on a regular basis, there are bound to be surpises.

My 4345 is my first attempt at speaker building. Heck, I didn't even have any tools to build them. I bought a table saw along the way, a router, Bessey clamps, etc - all for the sake of building the speaker. I learned a lot from the forums here as well as various youtube videos.

Its been fun but its certainly a lot of work. Not having a sperate woodshop in the house only makes it worst.

I don't mean to discourage anyone here - I'm just saying that a lot more work goes into building these speakers than what pictures can capture.

[cosmos]

Those are just plain beautiful.. I'd love to hear them..

[spkrman57]

I wish i could afford to have a speaker system like that built for me!:(

Glad it belongs to a friend!:applaud:

Ron sends....;)

[Robh3606]

They sure do look great!!

Rob:)

[spkrman57]

I did not want to quote the entire post, but this caught my attention in your thread starter:

" 2445J/2311/L94 with D8R2452H-SL diaphragms"

The question I have for you is:

With the 2452 diaphrams in the 2445 (which I'm guessing are aquaplased), how good can the 2445's sound. I'm sure fellow member "Cosmos" would be interested in that info also!

Thanks, Ron

[dkalsi]

4313B (or anyone else),

Where are you [guys] obtaining the knobs for the L-Pads. The ones supplied with the L-Pads at Parts Express are certainly not the ones that many of the forums members are using in their DIY 43XX builds.

Please let me know.

Thanks,
Dhar

[Fangio]

... Where are you [guys] obtaining the knobs for the L-Pads. The ones supplied with the L-Pads at Parts Express are certainly not the ones that many of the forums members are using in their DIY 43XX builds.

Got some here, for my networks:

sign--shop (http://shop.ebay.com/sign--shop/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p4340)

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=18085&page=2 (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=248693&postcount=17)

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj35/MacFangio/JBL_3145_CC/DSC08270cc.jpg

[Cosmo]

Nice job !!! Very clean looking you do nice work !!! :)

[Fangio]

If you mean the knobs, yes they are pretty but it's another member here who remakes them, rjtimmerman. He owns this sign--shop.

Nice job !!! Very clean looking you do nice work !!! :)
But if you were referring to 4313B's craftsmanship I couldn't agree more. :)


:applaud:... Can you share a pic of the pair, in their working position?
:yes: , and

In any case, I'll be moving on to the 4345 equivalent networks with the 2122H's and 2421B's as well as 2445J's
please keep us posted about your findings. Thanks

Happy New Year everyone.

[dkalsi]

In any case, I'll be moving on to the 4345 equivalent networks with the 2122H's and 2421B's as well as 2445J's in a few weeks after I get the rest of the 4355 networks out the door as promised.

4313B,

Have you had any luck finding time to start the new 4345 equivalent networks?

Thanks,
Dhar

[4313B]

Not yet. It's been a bad 4th quarter (funerals, massive layoffs and illnesses to live through). I've still got two pairs of 3155's sitting here looking at me. I can't believe it is already January 12th. I just lost a whole freakin' week. :(

[dkalsi]

Not yet. It's been a bad 4th quarter (funerals, massive layoffs and illnesses to live through). I've still got two pairs of 3155's sitting here looking at me. I can't believe it is already January 12th. I just lost a whole freakin' week. :(

Oh I'm sorry to hear that. Hopefully things will turn around with the new year.

Best of luck :-)

Dhar

[JuniorJBL]

That sir is TOTL!!:applaud:

[spkrman57]

Not yet. It's been a bad 4th quarter (funerals, massive layoffs and illnesses to live through). I've still got two pairs of 3155's sitting here looking at me. I can't believe it is already January 12th. I just lost a whole freakin' week. :(

Things will improve for 2010!

Regards, Ron

[Eaulive]

Things will improve for 2010!

Regards, Ron

I hope so, 'cause in my case it could hardly be worse than 2009 :banghead:

[dkalsi]

In this build, I noticed that you used the JBL 2123H driver as oppose to the 2122H driver.

Now I can't remember which thread this was discussed in, but I believe it was previously discussed that the JBL 2245H does not perform well in the upper end of the 30Hz-300Hz specturm and that the JBL 2122H does a better job than the 2123H in the bottem end of the 300hz-1,200hz spectrum.

I pulled up the spec sheet for JBL 2123H and found the frequency response of the 2123 to be 80hz to 6Khz. Hence, I see no reason to believe why the 2123H would not perform equally well as the 2122H.

It could very well be that I may have misread something (or am just confusing myself). My question is: Besides the fact that JBL 2122H was originally used in the JBL 4345s, is there any reason to believe that it is better suited for the 4345 than the 2123?

Thanks,
D

[4313B]

In this build, I noticed that you used the JBL 2123H driver as oppose to the 2122H driver.So I could try out the 4344 Mk II network. It works. :rotfl:
Now I can't remember which thread this was discussed in, but I believe it was previously discussed that the JBL 2245H does not perform well in the upper end of the 30Hz-300Hz specturmIt does just fine. The room is probably the problem with any response in the upper end. You can cross the eighteen and the ten lower. It isn't written in stone that you have to cross over at 290Hz or 340Hz. Anything that works in the 200 to 400 Hz range in your room will do. I'm currently using 200 Hz (because my 4345's are right on the floor) and the 2123H is just slightly thin whereas the 2122H sounds real nice.
and that the JBL 2122H does a better job than the 2123H in the bottem end of the 300hz-1,200hz spectrum.Yes it does as far as bandwidth goes. If I remember correctly the 2122H is about 1 dB more efficient at 300 Hz.

I pulled up the spec sheet for JBL 2123H and found the frequency response of the 2123 to be 80hz to 6Khz. Hence, I see no reason to believe why the 2123H would not perform equally well as the 2122H.The "80 Hz spec" of the 2123 is based on the ported box. I've posted the response curves of both drivers in the ubiquitous sealed box and the 2122H has more bottom end.
It could very well be that I may have misread something (or am just confusing myself). My question is: Besides the fact that JBL 2122H was originally used in the JBL 4345s, is there any reason to believe that it is better suited for the 4345 than the 2123?While I have no doubt at all that some people have swapped out a 2122 with a 2123 in a stock 4345 and proclaimed it a success the short story is "it won't work". And in real life it really doesn't work although I'm sure it is "good enough" for some folks and that's fine. The 2123 is 3 dB more efficient, has more top end and less bottom end than the 2122. Think "tilt". Account for that by reworking the stock 4344/4345 network and you should be good to go.

Or you could just go digital and quad amp.

My only beef with the 2122H is the foam surround. It's a very nice termination, arguably better than the 2123H rolled surround, but it will rot over time.

[dkalsi]

Thanks 4313B - for the thorough response.

Hope all is well.
D

[Ian Mackenzie]

4313B,

You make a good point that they are not plug and play and the 2123 scores on the foam rot.

I have heard both on the 4345 ..the 2122H with the stock 3145 network and the 2123 in the 4345 with the 4344mk11 network.

Its a case of weighing up the bit of extra low end the 2122H has versus the extended response of the 2123 and how that is exploited with the 4344mk11 network.

Both are really nice when properly setup and its horses for courses.

Let your ears be the judge.

[pos]

The room is probably the problem with any response in the upper end. You can cross the eighteen and the ten lower. It isn't written in stone that you have to cross over at 290Hz or 340Hz. Anything that works in the 200 to 400 Hz range in your room will do.

That is quite interesting because this region (200-400) is right where the Schroeder frequency is in most roms. That is the frequency under wich modes become really sparse and individually noticeable and where Earl Geddes or Todd Welti suggest to use multiple sources to simulate those lost modes (ie multiple subs).

And whereas multiple subs are an ideal solution under 100Hz (because localisation), the upper region up to the Schroeder freqeuncy (100-200 or 100-300, depending on the size of the room) remains a problem in most cases.

Wayne Parham (PiSpeakers) suggest to use multiple sources for this range, but closer to the main speaker to avoid localisation problems.
This is what the E2 or 4435 do: two woofers playing the lowest octaves together, enlarging the radiation surface and exiting different modes of the room.

Well, that could also be done with the 4345 (if sufficiently raised from the ground to avoid problems with the 2245 in its upper range).
The 2245 and the 2122 can play together down to maybe 100Hz (and multiple subs would be used under that).

Here is a small picture explaning the proposed crossover (these are acoustic slopes, not just electrical ones).
This is something I plan to try with my 2245H/2020H, with a digital crossover.

[phamphare]

Absolutely fantastic !
Never seen such a perfect work.

And thank you for the documentation because I am beginning to follow the same lane.
For the time I collect spare parts.

I came to, precisely, this model 4345 because I had, long years ago, a new pair of 3 ways 432x with LE15A, 375 and 077 or their professionnal equivalent I don't remember.
I found that 4345 were better because of the fourth way in the medium.
But I neglected to upgrade my JBL for WAF reasons.

I search for the exact design of the cabinet. Could you tell me where to find it?

[Chas]

Commencez ici:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=11856

[Mr. Widget]

But I neglected to upgrade my JBL for WAF reasons.
Guess you relieved yourself of that problem? :D

I am still waiting to hear of a member building a pair of 4345 clones and use the 375(2440) in lieu of the 1" driver.


Widget

[grumpy]

Just picked up some 2311's, so 4345 "clones"? no, but I now have all of the
components needed to put together such a beast, with 2123's and more
recent 4" drivers (2446 w/2450SL diaphragms)... too many changes to do
a direct 242x vs. 2440/375 based 4345 comparo, but that's as close as I'll
ever get.

As always, I have no excuse but time prioritization and a good flushing of
accumulated junk in the garage (re cabinet saw access).

As you might imagine, there are a few threads I'm following with much
interest.

[boputnam]

...Or you could just go digital and quad amp.That has been a very distracting thought of late. I stalled with the problems/isses of using/making appropriate: crossover filter types and slopes; voltage drives; and amp selections. And, where to rack all that gear. And-and, penetrating the cabinet to make the connections.


...My only beef with the 2122H is the foam surround. It's a very nice termination, arguably better than the 2123H rolled surround, but it will rot over time.Ah, don't we all...


Thanks 4313B - for the thorough response. +1


I now have all of the components needed to put together such a beast....

As you might imagine, there are a few threads I'm following with much
interest.Cool! :applaud:

[robert2k]

Hi, your project makes me very impress, but it’s possible so you can post some spec,
Internal volume for 2245h woofer? Diameter of those 3 ports (I guess 4”) and length of tubes? Also did you use only 1” mdf with bracing?
I’m planning build similar project with 2245h woofer.
Thank you,

Robert

[boputnam]

Hi, Robert...

Most of what you seek can be found in the 4345 Enclosure Plans (http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=11856).

Also, Searching for the numerous threads discussing the 4345 will provide much discussion of the cabinet, drivers and variants.

[BMWCCA]

Heather put this link thread together that might help:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=171841

[dkalsi]

Not yet. I've still got two pairs of 3155's sitting here looking at me. I can't believe it is already January 12th. I just lost a whole freakin' week. :(

Hey 4313B,

Hope all is well and hope that things are turning around for the better in 2010. Just wanted to follow up and see whether you had the opportunity to develop the crossovers for the 4345 (not trying to be annoying here - just simply checking in). I'm pretty close to completing the cosmetics and was hoping to start ordering crossover parts sometime in the near future. If no updates, no big deal.

Cheers,
Dhar

[4313B]

Yep, here we are in February already but work hasn't slowed down at all which means I have a job for a little while longer! :bouncy:

I really need to get the networks done so I can sell these 4345 clones and make room in my family room for the family! I'm going to sell off all my JBL systems and components except maybe my Arrays. I haven't decided on those yet. I'll definitely keep the Tannoy HT system that replaced the JBL 4430/4406 system years ago.

[4313B]

I wanted to go ahead and express interest in the systems you might be selling off - especially if you decide to sell any large studio monitors (i.e. 43XX).I haven't decided what I am going to do for sure yet. I just know that I can't keep these large loudspeakers. My options are to part them out, sell them in the U.S. via local pickup only, or ship them to Japan where I can rest assured that they will be greatly appreciated. I'm leaning towards the parting out scenario if only because it is the least hassle.

[BMWCCA]

I'm leaning towards the parting out scenario if only because it is the least hassle.

That would truly be a shame!

Ohio's not that far from me. Hmm, in fact my wife is driving through Ohio even as I'm typing this... :hmm:

[spkrman57]

I might have an interest in the empty cabinets........:idea:

Ron

[opimax]

Maybe list local pick up 1st and see what goes. I am not sure If I have an interest but if I do going to Ohio for pick up is not an issue.. well if I could get out of the driveway...how much snow out your way?

Mark

[hjames]

Well, if i roll the 4341s out, and the equipment racks too,
mebbe they'd fit on either side of the TV ...

Think they'd fit in the back of the CRV?
I'm not so sure about that ...
maybe indivisiblebiker needs another set for full surround ...?

[Punch]

That would truly be a shame!

Ohio's not that far from me. Hmm, in fact my wife is driving through Ohio even as I'm typing this... :hmm:

Phil...make sure to stop off for some Graeter's Ice Cream on your road trip to Ohio...WOW! I buy it online and have it sent to Chicago...when the pants start getting tight, I wait awhile between shipments :)

[BMWCCA]

Well, if i roll the 4341s out, and the equipment racks too,
mebbe they'd fit on either side of the TV ...

Think they'd fit in the back of the CRV?
I'm not so sure about that ...
Well, I have first-hand experience putting 4345s in my old van. Road trip anyone?

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c378/BMWCCA1/For%20Sale/DSC_1367.jpg

If they fit in my living room, they'll fit in either of yours! ;)

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=43477&stc=1&d=1262387664

[Punch]

If you buy me ice cream, I'm in :bouncy:

[opimax]

I'm in!

[Punch]

I'm in!

I think your road trip with Phil would make more sense since you are in D.C. and I am in Chicago. :applaud:

[lgvenable]

4313B:I'm guessing the diaphragms are aquaplased to make the driver a little less harsh, did someone on the forum do this? What difference will this make in the diaphragm performance?

[dkalsi]

Got some here, for my networks:

sign--shop (http://shop.ebay.com/sign--shop/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p4340)

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=18085&page=2 (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=248693&postcount=17)

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj35/MacFangio/JBL_3145_CC/DSC08270cc.jpg


Does anyone know how big of a hole (-the diameter) I need to make on the baffle to accommodate the l-pad knobs?

Thanks,
D

[saeman]

three 5/8" holes on 2 5/8" centers

[dkalsi]

three 5/8" holes on 2 5/8" centers

wow - straight from the expert :-)

Thank you very much.

[JuniorJBL]

4313b

Did you by chance do an Impedance and fr plot of the 2445 w/2452sl diaphragm?

If so would you mind posting them?

[4313B]

Yes I did and yes I will at some point...

[JuniorJBL]

Thanks for the reply 4313B

May I ask, was the difference large or small between the 2452h SL and the 2445 mod? I have access to a pair of 2445's that if this was a viable alternative I would move forward with it. I am thinking 2-way.


It really is sad that these things have happened, but it is what it is.:(

[4313B]

I can't remember because I did a whole bunch at once. They are all a little different, the 2446 and newer models use the newer phasing plug for instance. The 2445 is basically just a ferrite version of the alnico 2440/2441 core.

[JuniorJBL]

Thank you Sir!!:)

[4313B]

For one thing the 2452H-SL is an "8 ohm" diaphragm and the 2445J's I have had "16 ohm" diaphragms in them...


I've been asked by several people what I would sell these for whole rather than part them out. I honestly don't know right now. All the drivers are fresh as are the charge-coupled bi-amp only networks so they do have some value. I guess I'll decide after I try the last generation 4345 cc networks, along with fresh 2122H's.

I do know that it is highly unlikely that I will have room for them in the near future. I'm fast running out of space and am going to have to switch several rooms around, none of which are very hospitable to large loudspeaker systems.

[dkalsi]

I guess I'll decide after I try the last generation 4345 cc networks, along with fresh 2122H's.I do know that it is highly unlikely that I will have room for them in the near future.


Looking forward to both (i) the 4345cc networks, and (ii) your potential decision to sell the speakers. :)

Cheers,
D

[4313B]

While I am busy finishing up all the 4355 networks I am building for guys who have been waiting far too long I ordered all the parts to build a pair of full passive charge coupled 4344/4345 networks this past Monday. The order is backordered until the end of March though. I will definitely have all the 4355 networks done by then and can then build this prototype 4344/4345 pair for confirmation. Once confirmed, I can build all the 4344/4345 pairs that folks have been patiently waiting for.

[dkalsi]

While I am busy finishing up all the 4355 networks I am building for guys who have been waiting far too long I ordered all the parts to build a pair of full passive charge coupled 4344/4345 networks this past Monday. The order is backordered until the end of March though. I will definitely have all the 4355 networks done by then and can then build this prototype 4344/4345 pair for confirmation. Once confirmed, I can build all the 4344/4345 pairs that folks have been patiently waiting for.

4313B,

Thank you for the update. Could you please share how much the total cost was for the parts for the 4344/4345 networks (but only if you want to disclose that information).

Cheers,
Dhar

[dkalsi]

The order is backordered until the end of March though.

Hey 4313B,

Just wanted to follow up an see whether you received the parts for the 4345 networks. Please let us know.

Thanks,

Dhar

[4313B]

I received the last few inductors on Tuesday. I hope to start building them next weekend.

I also need to recone a pair of 2122H's.

[dkalsi]

I hope to start building them next weekend.
:applaud:

[4313B]

I'm kind of tempted to whip up a 2234H version of this system format. The 2234H in a 3.75 cubic foot enclosure tuned to 30 Hz along with a 30 Hz high pass (Q=2) filter such as the 5234A, 5235 or DX-1 can provide should yield very nearly the same bandwidth and efficiency of the 2245H in less than half the enclosure volume. It should trump the 2235H in the larger ~ 5 cu ft 4344 box.

[hjames]

I'm kind of tempted to whip up a 2234H version of this system format. The 2234H in a 3.75 cubic foot enclosure tuned to 30 Hz along with a 30 Hz high pass (Q=2) filter such as the 5234A, 5235 or DX-1 can provide should yield very nearly the same bandwidth and efficiency of the 2245H in less than half the enclosure volume. It should trump the 2235H in the larger ~ 5 cu ft 4344 box.
Very interesting - thanks!
I'd replaced the 2234s that were in the 4341s I bought with 2235s,
and moved the 2234s into L200 cabinets.
It seemed like both systems got better bass in the process -
(but of course, I haven't rebuilt the crossovers in the 4341s yet).

[Ian Mackenzie]

I'm kind of tempted to whip up a 2234H version of this system format. The 2234H in a 3.75 cubic foot enclosure tuned to 30 Hz along with a 30 Hz high pass (Q=2) filter such as the 5234A, 5235 or DX-1 can provide should yield very nearly the same bandwidth and efficiency of the 2245H in less than half the enclosure volume. It should trump the 2235H in the larger ~ 5 cu ft 4344 box.

Great idea if space is an issue which it normally is but is won't play as loud and will have higher distortion (apparently:blah:)

[dkalsi]

I'm kind of tempted to whip up a 2234H version of this system format. The 2234H in a 3.75 cubic foot enclosure tuned to 30 Hz along with a 30 Hz high pass (Q=2) filter such as the 5234A, 5235 or DX-1 can provide should yield very nearly the same bandwidth and efficiency of the 2245H in less than half the enclosure volume. It should trump the 2235H in the larger ~ 5 cu ft 4344 box.

I apologize for my ignorance, but are you suggestions that you would like to build a crossover for a DIY 4345 system that uses the 2234H as oppose to the 2245H? - or is the crossover going to be the same both versions- or are you plan on building x-overs the the 2234H version first, and then the 2245H version?

Please let me know as I am eagerly awaiting crossover schematics for the DIY 4345 (with 2245H woofers, and 2441 mids).

Thank you once again for all your efforts,
Dhar

[4313B]

No. No. No.

I was just thinking aloud. Some folks will know exactly what I am talking about and I would be surprised if anyone actually tried it.

Besides... the 124H, 2203H, LE14H, 136H, 2231H, 2234H, 2235H and 2245H are all electrically similar so there is no difference in the low pass 4344/4345 schematic.

[dkalsi]

No. No. No.

I was just thinking aloud. Some folks will know exactly what I am talking about and I would be surprised if anyone actually tried it.

Besides... the 124H, 2203H, LE14H, 136H, 2231H, 2234H, 2235H and 2245H are all electrically similar so there is no difference in the low pass 4344/4345 schematic.

Ahh...got it... Once again, I apologize for the dumb question.

Thanks,
D

[eso]

4313B posted:
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=43257&stc=1&d=1261019575
Where does one find the cast aluminum speaker mounting clamps? I haven't been able to find anything but cheesy plastic ones and I really need some good ones for my Urei projects.



eso

[Mr. Widget]

Where does one find the cast aluminum speaker mounting clamps? Search MA-15, MA15... here and on eBay.

They used to be available directly from JBL Pro Parts... the part numbers are listed in a number of threads here. They may or may not still be available from JBL... they are regularly available on eBay.


Widget

[eso]

Search MA-15, MA15... here and on eBay.

They used to be available directly from JBL Pro Parts... the part numbers are listed in a number of threads here. They may or may not still be available from JBL... they are regularly available on eBay.


Widget

That's the part. Thanks!




eso

[4313B]

Where does one find the cast aluminum speaker mounting clamps?I just received 250 of them so they're still available. The JBL Pro part number is 60958.


I managed to get the last two 2122H recone kits available. Pro was out so I checked Consumer and they had just two left. What luck! The next scheduled production run is after the June JBL Manufacturing move to Mexico. :o:

I have all the 3145 network parts now and will start putting them together next weekend. I finished up all the 3155 networks this past weekend.

[dkalsi]

I have all the 3145 network parts now and will start putting them together next weekend.
:applaud: - I better get started and complete all the steps (re-paint baffles, polyfill, tungoil, etc.).

Really looking forward to your build and the results.

[4313B]

Oops! I forgot about the bi-amp switch. I'm waiting for that to come from Japan. Kenji sourced a bag of good ones. If it doesn't exist he has it made. The guy is simply outstanding.

Greg sent me Paul Bente's DX-1 so I'm going to work up a pair of cards for that too. I already have all those parts and Greg sent me a bag full of the connectors. He likes my 4345 variants. :)

[JuniorJBL]

I like extra cool goodies!!:D

[RedCoat23]

I've just acquired some 2420H's with 2307 horns from the 'bay; and I have also got some 2245h's, 2123's and a single 2405H on the way from craigslist.

My question is this; is it worth spending the money to put the D16R2421 diaphragm in to make it a 2421B and similarly, shoulld I have the 2123 reconed as a 2122?
In both cases the existing diaphragm and cone are in good condition.

I still need to build a cabinet and source a network yet, so those are part of the consideration - since the network isn't really interchangeable between the two options - at least that's my understanding.

I've have looked around on the forum and seen comments on either way, but I wonder for those of you that have a standard drivers in your 4345 and those that don't, if facing this choice which way would you go? :dont-know

Best Regards

[dkalsi]

Hi 4313B,

Any updates on the crossovers yet?

Thanks,
D

[4313B]

No, and the list of orders for them is getting longer... Hopefully when Rick gets back from Germany the bi-amp switches will be waiting for him so he can ship them to me.

I really need to get the first pair of bi-amp only networks done quickly because I want my 4345's sold by the end of May. I have to redo the room they are in over the summer.

[4313B]

Guys, I'm waiting on the bi-amp switches... I hope they are up to the task. I'll know more when saeman gets back from Germany.

While I would never use a full passive network in this large of a system the opposition is clearly stacked against me. Everyone wants the full passive option (primarily because most people have the 4344 rather than the 4345). I thought the bi-amp only solution, ala 4350/4355, would be easy to justify. It has been anything but.

[dkalsi]

Guys, I'm waiting on the bi-amp switches... I hope they are up to the task. I'll know more when saeman gets back from Germany.

While I would never use a full passive network in this large of a system the opposition is clearly stacked against me. Everyone wants the full passive option (primarily because most people have the 4344 rather than the 4345). I thought the bi-amp only solution, ala 4350/4355, would be easy to justify. It has been anything but.

Hi 4313B,

This is going to be a really dumb question: but have the schematics for the crossovers been finalized. I personally have no intentions of going the full passive route. I already have an active Ashly crossover and just recently purchased a McIntosh 270wpc solid state amp that I plan to use for bass duty.

In the events the schematics for the bi-amp version have been finalized, could you please post. On the other hand, if you are waiting to build the crossovers and then spend some time tweaking them before you finally settle on the schematics - then I am more than happy to wait. Lastly, could you please confirm that the schematics in progress will accommodate 2440/1 drivers as for a mid-hi? I know there is no such thing as "universal networks", but I remember reading somewhere in this thread that the 2441s may be used in lieu of the 2425/6

Thank you once again for all your efforts.

Cheers,
D

[4313B]

In the events the schematics for the bi-amp version have been finalized, could you please post.I will after I build a few and get my time out of the effort.
On the other hand, if you are waiting to build the crossovers and then spend some time tweaking them before you finally settle on the schematics - then I am more than happy to wait. Lastly, could you please confirm that the schematics in progress will accommodate 2440/1 drivers as for a mid-hi? I know there is no such thing as "universal networks", but I remember reading somewhere in this thread that the 2441s may be used in lieu of the 2425/6The network I am building to start with is for the 2421B/2425J/2426J. Since I am using the 2445H-SL I will need to modify my networks accordingly. I think I posted previously that the 2-inch throat driver has a bit more bottom end and a bit less top end so the bandpass will have to be modified accordingly. I have a pair of 2441's that I was also going to build a specific network for but I have lost faith in their Bl factor so I am scraping that option. I'll just pop some D16R2445J diaphragms back into my 2445 cores and use them as a baseline instead. Same difference.

Bo uses EQ so the fact that he has TAD drivers instead of his stock 2421B's won't make any difference. He already has the EQ curve dialed in.

I really want to get through this as quickly as possible because I am sick and tired of JBL and want to move on to something else (The impending manufacturing move to Mexico in June and the last group of folks to get their walking papers as of last Friday pretty much killed the brand for me personally). I have tons of other projects that are much more fun and rewarding to do around both my houses. First is a log cabin playhouse for the kids and I want it done before the end of the summer! Given that I work from 7 AM to 8 PM everday during the week I am hard pressed for time.

[boputnam]

Bo uses EQ so the fact that he has TAD drivers instead of his stock 2421B's won't make any difference. He already has the EQ curve dialed in.And I'll (re)check it all with the new networks.


First is a log cabin playhouse for the kids and I want it done before the end of the summer! :applaud:

[eso]

The network I am building to start with is for the 2421B/2425J/2426J...

It seems like there are plenty of 2425J drivers floating around out there at really cheap prices. I've been hunting 2425H units for a project of mine and I come across several pairs of Js for every pair of Hs. I just paid ~$100 for a clean pair of Js needing new diaphrams... easy to replace with H diaphrams. If only I could swap the foilcals out too.

eso

[4313B]

And I'll (re)check it all with the new networks.

:applaud:I need to look over those curves again and refresh my memory.

[spkrman57]

I have tons of other projects that are much more fun and rewarding to do around both my houses. First is a log cabin playhouse for the kids and I want it done before the end of the summer! Given that I work from 7 AM to 8 PM everday during the week I am hard pressed for time.


You'll appreciate the time with your children!

Ron

[badman]

You'll appreciate the time with your children!

Ron

Let's hope so! Are you letting the kids help or are you going to be out there banging your thumb alone? I'm sure they'd love to help... even if their minds wander after a while.

[audiogoose]

Hello:
Just joined the forum a couple of weeks ago and have been browsing through some of the old threads, happening upon this one today.
Several posts back, 4313B indicated he would be selling a pair of 4345's by the end of May.
If these haven't sold, I would be sorely tempted to buy them, depending on price of course.
Also, noting that he is located in Ohio, I wouldn't be averse to driving over from my location here in Indianapolis for an audition.
Of course, if they are already sold, all the preceding is moot.
Does anyone have an update on the status of the 4345's?
Jerry

[Chas]

Hi and welcome, why don't you shoot him a PM?

[dkalsi]

Does anyone have an update on the status of the 4345's?

I believe 4313B is still working on finalizing the crossovers. There schematics of the current 4545 equivalent crossovers are still available here on the forum and from what I have read so far, all those who have tried the current crossover design are very happy with the result. I decided to wait for the new crossovers to be finalized - I just hope this 7+ months wait is worth it. Besides the grills, the crossovers are the only thing left in my DIY 4345 build. I'm just too desperate to hear what the "JBL Sound" is all about that I might just go with the current design now.

This is going to be my first JBL speaker and I'm really looking forward to completing my build.. I've only owned Klipsch in the past (please don't hate me).

[audiogoose]

Thanks for the info. Still negotiating with my wife over whether I can be seriously interested, or not.:banghead:

[4313B]

I've pulled the 4344 MK II networks out of the enclosures and I'm still working on the 4345 equivalent networks.

I received some better than stock bi-amp switches this past week. The bi-amp switches from Japan didn't cut it.

I had to order some new parts from Parts Express today after I made some changes. They should arrive on Tuesday and then I can move forward. This is for the stock 4345 using the 2421B/2425J/2426J. Once it is done I'll see just how bad the circuit behaves with a 2441/2445J substituted in. I still haven't reconed my pair of 2122H's yet, primarily because I decided to use a different pair of cores. I also have to swap out the D8R2452H-SL diaphragms in my 2445's to aquaplased D16R2445's.

Here's the final voltage drive (based on the L-Pads set to their 0 dB positions). Black is the stock network and red is the equivalent network. The equivalent network uses all standard 5% parts values. The stock network tapped autotransformer values were obtained by taking a pair of stock networks apart and measuring the primary and secondary windings of each tapped autotransformer.

[4313B]

Hey, how did you like the 2" drivers in a 4345 context?I wouldn't go back to the 1-inch unless I had to for some reason.

My final configuration ended up being 2245H, 2123H, 2445J (aquaplased)/H93/L94, 2405H, and charge coupled final revision 3155 equivalent networks.

Could you please confirm the schematics for the latest and greatest 4345 and 4355 crossovers?I'll be building a new pair of networks for the above configuration in the next week or two. Here is the parts list you need to order:

Also needed are some terminal strips or blocks. Two 8-ohm 50W L-Pads and two 16-ohm 50W L-Pads. Ten 2.0 to 5.0 K ohm resistors and two 9 V batteries and holders.

[dkalsi]

I wouldn't go back to the 1-inch unless I had to for some reason.

My final configuration ended up being 2245H, 2123H, 2445J (aquaplased)/H93/L94, 2405H, and charge coupled final revision 3155 equivalent networks.
I'll be building a new pair of networks for the above configuration in the next week or two. Here is the parts list you need to order:

Also needed are some terminal strips or blocks. Two 8-ohm 50W L-Pads and two 16-ohm 50W L-Pads. Ten 2.0 to 5.0 K ohm resistors and two 9 V batteries and holders.


:applaud:

Thanks a million!

Is the aforementioned parts list for a pair of networks or for single network for a single speaker? EDIT: I was able to figure it out (List=a pair).

Thanks for all your efforts.

D

[dkalsi]

........ and charge coupled final revision 3155 equivalent networks .........

Has the final revision of the charge coupled 3155 equivalent networks been posed? I've been searching the forums for a couple of hours and have had little luck besides locating the non-biased 3155 networks posted by Mr. Widget in 2003: LINK (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?774-4355-3155-clones&p=6084&viewfull=1#post6084).

I can figure our how to create the CC'd version of the above referenced networks based on Giskard's post here: LINK (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?166-4333-S300-L300-equivalent-bandbass-circuit) - but that is about it.

I'm not sure whether subsequent updates have been made.

Thanks,
D

[4313B]

I haven't posted either of the final network schematics. I was going to post them yesterday and started to but realized that I would have to clean them up first. I went swimming with my kids instead.

I'm considering posting the network build as I do it.

[dkalsi]

I went swimming with my kids instead.


It was perfect weather to go swimming too - and it looks like it will continue for the next few days. We are suppose to be 100+ today/tomorrow here in MD.


I'm considering posting the network build as I do it.

Thanks - that would be extremely helpful.

Well...time to finally place my order for crossover parts (EDIT: - would anyone know why shipping from Solen would be so high - my shipping estimate for the aforementioned parts from Solen to 20904, USA was $115 :eek:??)

[4313B]

That's awfully high. Call them and tell them.

[dkalsi]

That's awfully high. Call them and tell them.

I just called them. Initial shipping estimate: $115, new quote: $22.

To total cost including shipping $222 <== I placed the order - can't wait!!!!!!

[Triumph Don]

I received some better than stock bi-amp switches this past week. The bi-amp switches from Japan didn't cut it

Why?

My final configuration ended up being 2245H, 2123H, 2445J (aquaplased)/H93/L94, 2405H, and charge coupled final revision 3155 equivalent networks.

How does that sound compared IYO to the 3145, or the fabled 3144?

[Woofer]

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?27199-DIY-quot-4345-quot-Project

Post #3

I just gotta ask ol' chum, in your original pics of the finished 4345, the L94 lens, looks quite small.
Is that just an optical illusion because everything else is bigger?
The L94 is the same as the 2310 isn't it, as I have a pair of those, and they aren't small at all!

Cheers all..... :)

[4313B]

I received some better than stock bi-amp switches this past week. The bi-amp switches from Japan didn't cut it

Why?

My final configuration ended up being 2245H, 2123H, 2445J (aquaplased)/H93/L94, 2405H, and charge coupled final revision 3155 equivalent networks.

How does that sound compared IYO to the 3145, or the fabled 3144?The contacts were too small.

The 3155 is a 4 dB hotter network than the 3145. I like that extra efficiency. Plus it works better with the 2441 or 2445 than the 3145 does. I'm still tweaking the 3155 for the 2123H. It's alot easier than tweaking the 3145 for the 2441 or 2445.

The 3144 Mk II sounds real nice but I think I prefer the older more dynamic networks.

[4313B]

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?27199-DIY-quot-4345-quot-Project

Post #3

I just gotta ask ol' chum, in your original pics of the finished 4345, the L94 lens, looks quite small.
Is that just an optical illusion because everything else is bigger?
The L94 is the same as the 2310 isn't it, as I have a pair of those, and they aren't small at all!

Cheers all..... :)The L94 is the mini-serpentine only used in the JBL Model L220/L222. I used it instead of the usual L91/2308 lens because, as Greg agrees, "It looks so much cooler." :dont-know: It functions the same as the other lenses but it also cost more to manufacture back then. The 2310 is the full sized serpentine lens.

[Woofer]

The L94 is the mini-serpentine only used in the JBL Model L220/L222. I used it instead of the usual L91/2308 lens because, as Greg agrees, "It looks so much cooler." :dont-know: It functions the same as the other lenses but it also cost more to manufacture back then. The 2310 is the full sized serpentine lens.

Thank you, thank you, thank you....
I can sleep now. ;)

[Triumph Don]

The 3144 Mk II sounds real nice but I think I prefer the older more dynamic networks.

Yea boy, I think I know how you feel!

[dkalsi]

Here is the parts list you need to order:

Also needed are some terminal strips or blocks. Two 8-ohm 50W L-Pads and two 16-ohm 50W L-Pads. Ten 2.0 to 5.0 K ohm resistors and two 9 V batteries and holders.
4313B,

I just received confirmation that the parts from Solen arrived today!!!!!!:bouncy:!!!!! I was also able to source L-Pads from Parts Express and 3.0K ohm Resistors from DigiKey.


I haven't posted either of the final network schematics. I was going to post them yesterday and started to but realized that I would have to clean them up .....I'm considering posting the network build as I do it.

I just wanted to follow up and see if you had the opportunity to finalize the crossovers. I'm so excited that I can't even hold a thought in my head. I've been constructing these beasts for almost a year now. Hopefully it was worth the effort since everyone keeps telling me that I am in for a pleasant surprise. This is going to be my first JBL speaker!

Once again - I cannot thank you (4313B) enough for all your efforts and many things to everyone else on this forum.

Cheers,
D

[Robh3606]

Express and 3.0K ohm Resistors from DigiKey.


If those are the CC resistors you want Megaohms not K's. 10X6 not 10x3

Rob:)

[dkalsi]

If those are the CC resistors you want Megaohms not K's. 10X6 not 10x3

Rob:)

I believe I did get the Mega ohms and not K ohms.

I got these: LINK (http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/762063-res-3-0m-ohm-1-4w-5-carbon-film-cfr-25jb-3m0.html)

Will these work?

Thanks,
D

[Robh3606]

Those are them. All peaches and cream!

Rob:)

[dkalsi]

Those are them. All peaches and cream!

Rob:)

Thanks Rob (I wish I knew more about this stuff - but I'm learning slowly but surely).

[Altec Best]

(I wish I knew more about this stuff - but I'm learning slowly but surely).

Me Too !! We Love pictures and more Pictures :yes:

[4313B]

Hi 4313B,

I received all the parts you listed in your DIY 4345 Thread and I am ready to build the networks - just need the schematic now.Here's what I am building. I haven't tweaked the low pass for the 2123H instead of the 2202H yet though.

16 ohm L-Pad in front of the 376/2441/2445J (instead of the R13, R14, R15 sim)
8 ohm L-Pad in front of the 077/2405 (instead of the R10, R11, R12 sim)

[4313B]

I've sold these 4345-type clones and have no plans to finish this thread due to lack of time and interest. The thread just didn't work out how I envisioned. These loudspeakers were a real success and I'll absolutely miss them, especially in light of recent events at JBL. I very nearly kept them but their shear size was the deciding factor. The smaller 4344 is really nice but it just doesn't do what the eighteen does so that was never a compromise I was personally willing to deal with.

[dkalsi]

I've sold these 4345-type clones and have no plans to finish this thread due to lack of time and interest. The thread just didn't work out how I envisioned. These loudspeakers were a real success and I'll absolutely miss them, especially in light of recent events at JBL. I very nearly kept them but their shear size was the deciding factor. The smaller 4344 is really nice but it just doesn't do what the eighteen does so that was never a compromise I was personally willing to deal with.

Oh noooooo! :(
I personally checked up on this thread ever minute I had and the two days I missed it (due to work) - it ended.

Giskard - I personally can't thank you enough for your efforts (and patients with my PMs). If I can ever be of any assistance - please do let me know. This section of the forums (DIY section) was my favorite section. I loved watching and learning from fellow forum members. I hope, if at all possible, that you continue to provide your opinion/guidance even if you don't pursue anything at the person level. It's just that not that many people know JBL like some of you guys do (i.e., Giskard, Mr. Widget, Woody, JohnW, Scott, Robh, Seawolf, and others).

[Woofer]

Yeh, and thanks from me too Big G.

Cheers M8. ;)

[4313B]

4344Mk II network on the left, 4355 (equivalent) network on the right. Both are bi-amp only. These aren't fancy at all, just built as quickly as possible to get the job done.

There are only four outputs on the boards since the rest of the 4344MK II network components come after the L-Pads. The second photo shows the L-Pad board with the 3.5 mH 7.5 ohm and 1.0 mH 7.5 ohm inductors.

469714697346972

[cricri]

[QUOTE = 4313B ; 293187 ] 4344Mk réseau II sur la gauche , 4355 ( équivalent) de réseau sur la droite. Les deux sont bi - ampères seulement. Il ne s'agit pas de fantaisie à tous , vient de construire le plus rapidement possible pour faire le travail .

Il ya seulement quatre sorties sur les planches depuis le reste des composants du réseau 4344MK II viennent après la L -Pads . La deuxième photo montre le plateau L -Pad avec l'ohm 3,5 mH 7,5 et 1,0 mH 7,5 inducteurs ohms .
[Attach ] 46971 [/ attach ] [ attach] 46973 [/ attach ] [ attach] 46972 [/ attach ] [ / quote]


it was you who do the inducer for L-PAD, or you have purchased?:)

[4313B]

It was you who do the inducer for L-PAD, or you have purchased?:)I bought a whole bunch of them from JBL back in the day when JBL sold network components in addition to transducers for DIY.

[richluvsound]

Hi 4313b,

they are stunning , I can only imagine what they sound like .

$ :24,000,00 question are they keepers ?

Rich

[Triumph Don]

$ :24,000,00 question are they keepers ?

Rich

I will let you know in about a week.

[JeffW]

Hi 4313b,

they are stunning , I can only imagine what they sound like .

$ :24,000,00 question are they keepers ?

Rich

Said he sold them in #117...

[richluvsound]

Said he sold them in #117...

its the time difference :blink:

[richluvsound]

I will let you know in about a week.


I look forward to your reports . If that man built the xovers,:applaud: then its a foregone conclusion though


Rich

[4313B]

$ :24,000,00 question are they keepers ?Here they are before I load them in the van for the drive to Cincinnati tomorrow. Hopefully Don will want to keep them. :)

I used Rick's oil formula instead of the usual Watco and just finished applying the third coat before taking the pictures.

My wife and I spent the last two nights enjoying them for the last time. I'll definitely miss their sound and the awesome heritage they represent. But not their size and weight; It's been a real treat to haul them back and forth between the garage for measurements/tweaking and the current listening room for evaluations. :p As soon as they're gone I need to convert the listening room into an office/playroom for the family. They're significantly more excited about it than I am... I've been putting it off for awhile now. :rolleyes:

46995

[Mannermusic]

I love the simplicity of the X-over design/layout with the separate modules - easy to access as/if needed. "Military Grade" connections! One item I can't seem to find in the thread: did you finally LEAP the low pass values to allow replacement of the 2202 with 2123? I don't think it's a big change but thought it worth asking before I order stuff. Mike

[pos]

They are simply gorgeous!

[dkalsi]

4344Mk II network on the left, 4355 (equivalent) network on the right. Both are bi-amp only. These aren't fancy at all, just built as quickly as possible to get the job done.

There are only four outputs on the boards since the rest of the 4344MK II network components come after the L-Pads. The second photo shows the L-Pad board with the 3.5 mH 7.5 ohm and 1.0 mH 7.5 ohm inductors.

469714697346972


4313B,

I have a couple (dumb) questions:

1) Why are there 3 L-pads if crossovers you posted are the bi-amp versions only? Am I missing something? I just went though John W 4345 build and he used only 2 L-pads because he built the bi-amp version only.

2) I am using the schematics you posted in post #116 (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?27199-DIY-quot-4345-quot-Project&p=292188&viewfull=1#post292188). I am ignoring everything on the right side of "S8" and "S6" - and working with the assumption that is represents L-pads. Could you please verify whether this assumption is correct?


Thanks,
Dhar

[4313B]

One item I can't seem to find in the thread: did you finally LEAP the low pass values to allow replacement of the 2202 with 2123? I don't think it's a big change but thought it worth asking before I order stuff. MikeI was surprised at how similar the 2123H and 2202H were. The 2123H ends up ~ 2 dB less efficient, otherwise they behave substantially the same within the context of the 12 dB/octave filter shown.

Why are there 3 L-pads if crossovers you posted are the bi-amp versions only? Am I missing something? I just went though John W 4345 build and he used only 2 L-pads because he built the bi-amp version only.These were made to try out full passive as well as bi-amp only networks, hence the three L-Pads. The 2123H L-Pad can be run full on or bypassed completely in bi-amp mode. I had it in there to also properly evaluate the 4344 MK II network. Note that JBL doesn't bypass the L-pad in bi-amp mode in the 4344 MK II or the 4344/4345.
I am using the schematics you posted in post #116 (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?27199-DIY-quot-4345-quot-Project&p=292188&viewfull=1#post292188). I am ignoring everything on the right side of "S8" and "S6" - and working with the assumption that is represents L-pads. Could you please verify whether this assumption is correct?S8 represents a 16 ohm L-Pad set at the 0 dB position on the 4345 foilcal (-4 dB actual). S6 represents a 8 ohm L-Pad set at the 0 dB position on the 4345 foilcal (-4 dB actual).

I set the actual L-Pad levels using MLS and they ended up being full on for the 2123H, -2 dB on the 4345 foilcal for the 2445J and -3 dB on the 4345 foilcal for the 2405H. The end result was very well balanced. With the 2202H they end up being at the 0 dB mark for the 2445J and -1 dB for the 2405H. These are relative levels based on the foilcal markings.

Using the 4355 equivalent network results in 3 dB greater efficiency from the 10-inch 3-way as compared with the stock 4344/4345 network. I like the result.

[Mannermusic]

Dr. G,

Good show, thanks! :applaud: Mike

[dkalsi]

Dr. G ---> You are the MAN!!!!!:applaud:

[Triumph Don]

Well I think I will keep them. Took awhile to warm up to...about 6 minutes.

[richluvsound]

Triumph,


I remember the night I finished mine and hooked them up ....... I think I went to bed about 4am .

For some reason I HAD to listen to my entire music collection in one night :bouncy:

Your in love so I'll leave you alone ....

Rich

[Triumph Don]

Still listening...but like most of us here, at my age we have collected alot of music. Don't think I could play my entire collection 24/7 for two weeks and get to the end. But I have picked out a few CD< and a stack of 33's-won't get to the end, but the batteries in the CC network must be starting to work 'cause it just keeping better, so I will give it a shot.

[BMWCCA]

Still listening...the batteries in the CC network must be starting to work 'cause it just keeping better, so I will give it a shot.I can read in your words the smile on your face. :)


(I always thought it was my imagination that the system "warmed-up" after a while, and did consider it could be the CC networks "filling up" after a long period of not using the system. :dont-know: Did Dale put the crossovers inside your cabinets, or are they external? Oh wait, after all that discussion about the bi-amp changeover switch, I guess they must be inside though I don't remember seeing any photos of them in-place or the connections on the back.)

[topr]

4313B
I must say as many before me that this 4345 speakers just look so great.:applaud:
This has inspired me to start building to. I have all the drivers except for the 2445, so I thought I could use my 2450 drivers. I have recently bought new diaphragm but they are the D8R 2450SL. ( H and not J )

I need some help with the following questions.

1. Is there a problem in using the 2450 instead of the 2445?
2. If no on question 1, can I use my diaphragm and if so what changes must I do in the crossover network, or is it necessary to use a 16ohm diaphragm?

I have two large boxes that I gonna start modify for this project. (JBL 4771a)
so it will not be a clone.
Maybe this will be another thread on the forum.

[Triumph Don]

Using the 4355 equivalent network results in 3 dB greater efficiency from the 10-inch 3-way as compared with the stock 4344/4345 network. I like the result.

No doubt. Went from L200's, to L300's [2 pairs 15 yrs. apart] to 4343's to 4343B's [REALLY liked those] to 4344 MK2's. After several discussions about my taste [ah, with ears?] 4313B made me the perfect crossover, combined with all new/rebuilt components. In beautiful cabs. Oh, they also have this 18" woofer. I use a Crown K1 [350 WPC sky high damping factor] for these. Takes some tweeking to get the bi amps even depending on the source [you know, old CD new CD, vinyl] but when it's right they are just fantastic! I mean listening to music I have had for 40+ years is just nuts. Like my Dad used to say, "make him drink a shot of vinegar you still can't get the grin off his face!" From a 30 year old design. With a 30 year old McIntosh amp for the top. And my 35 yr. old Thorens TD145 [with all the tweaks you can find, but still...] Just freakin amazing.

So Thanks Again 4313B! Heather, Doodle, BMWCCA, and all the others here for the input.

[4313B]

I had a discussion last night about two inch drivers in a 4345. My opinion is, that the 2426 can be sustituded by a 2446 without changing the crossover (3145 equivalent).That's your call. See Greg's voltage drives below.

Did you modify the crossovers for your 4345 with 2446?I used a 4355 network instead of the 4345 network. Here's why:

1. The system was intended for bi-amp only so there was no reason to take the efficiency hits on the top three components by using the 4345 network instead.

2. The 2123H behaves more like a 2202H than a 2122H does.

3. The 4355 network works very well with the 2-inch driver.

Here are the stock voltage drives of the two networks. Greg did the 4345 network first (red, 0481), the 4355 network second (gray, 0581) and then he further tweaked the 4355 network four months later (blue, 0981).

[Odd]

3155 equivalent network.

52622
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Can I use the 2123J? Which components need to be changed?

[ivica]

3155 equivalent network.

52622
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Can I use the 2123J? Which components need to be changed?

I suggest some correction

1. C1 and C2 totally to be 18 uF
2. L2 to be 3.5 mH (not uH)

[Odd]

I suggest some correction

1. C1 and C2 totally to be 18 uF
2. L2 to be 3.5 mH (not uH)

Thank you for your reply! Sorry the drawing was wrong.
52701

Same question. Can I use the 2123J? Which components need to be changed?

[ivica]

3155 equivalent network.

52622
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Can I use the 2123J? Which components need to be changed?

If not bi-amp only, you have to add HF section for 2123 (as 3145) an LP section for bass driver.

[Odd]

Thanks again for the attempt to help. The drawing shows a part of 3155 equivalent network based on Giskard's excellent work. And the question is, if I change from 2123h to 2123j which components need to be changed?

[mortron]

Zombie Thread... apologies.

I have been reading through this thread and am very interested in pursuing something similar. The use of the drivers in this project are one of the reasons, as I can source them somewhat easily. As I understand it, charge coupled networks and bi-amping are the way to go. I can't argue and my rig is already active bi-amped. I also like how the ports are not next to the midrange driver like in the original 4345. It seems to take into consideration much of what Greg Timbers shared in this link:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?10613-4345-Includes-Designer-s-Post&p=110349&viewfull=1#post110349

What I am most curious about is whether or not in the past 5 years since this thread concluded, any newer developments to the 4345 arose that may be worth incorporating into this design? I realize it's a 40 year old design, but some folks have come up with interesting tweaks over the years.

[ivica]

Zombie Thread... apologies.

I have been reading through this thread and am very interested in pursuing something similar. The use of the drivers in this project are one of the reasons, as I can source them somewhat easily. As I understand it, charge coupled networks and bi-amping are the way to go. I can't argue and my rig is already active bi-amped. I also like how the ports are not next to the midrange driver like in the original 4345. It seems to take into consideration much of what Greg Timbers shared in this link:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?10613-4345-Includes-Designer-s-Post&p=110349&viewfull=1#post110349

What I am most curious about is whether or not in the past 5 years since this thread concluded, any newer developments to the 4345 arose that may be worth incorporating into this design? I realize it's a 40 year old design, but some folks have come up with interesting tweaks over the years.

Hi mortron,

I am interested in such design but with some modifications :
1.
Instead of 2122 driver, I would use 2202 driver, as I like its sound very much
2.
instead of 2420/21 driver with 2307 horn, I would use 2441 or 2450 with 2311 horn and 2308 lenses

And 2245 and 077/2405 would remain.

I only wonder may be to enlarge the the bass-box volume to reach net-volume about 300 Lit.

There is one problem that I have realized when a fiend of mine was making his project, and that was a kind of influence in the bass FR response due to the ports position relative to the bass. He has been arranged them as 4343 placement, but a kind of second (unwanted) resonance has happened round 100Hz. May be that is the reason why JBL , after 4343 had decided to put the ports somewhere in the middle of the front panel such as 4344 or 4345 box too.
Have You any information about such ports position influence to the total bass FR response.

regards
ivica

[Ian Mackenzie]

The issue is the 2345 has more tendency to couple boundary reinforcement than the 2235.

The ports are tuned to 28 hertz so they are only going to impact in the low bass , not bass boom frequencies.

The issue is baffle realestate and where to if the ports, they can go anywhere.

The most effective was is the eq the woofer flat

[mortron]

Hi mortron,

I am interested in such design but with some modifications :
1.
Instead of 2122 driver, I would use 2202 driver, as I like its sound very much
2.
instead of 2420/21 driver with 2307 horn, I would use 2441 or 2450 with 2311 horn and 2308 lenses

And 2245 and 077/2405 would remain.

I only wonder may be to enlarge the the bass-box volume to reach net-volume about 300 Lit.

There is one problem that I have realized when a fiend of mine was making his project, and that was a kind of influence in the bass FR response due to the ports position relative to the bass. He has been arranged them as 4343 placement, but a kind of second (unwanted) resonance has happened round 100Hz. May be that is the reason why JBL , after 4343 had decided to put the ports somewhere in the middle of the front panel such as 4344 or 4345 box too.
Have You any information about such ports position influence to the total bass FR response.

regards
ivica

I haven't got any measurements, just read on several threads and posts over the years that having the bass ports near the midrange woofer like that wasn't great. Perhaps someone can chime in here. I am going to re-read the thread and see why 4313B elected this layout.

[ivica]

The issue is the 2345 has more tendency to couple boundary reinforcement than the 2235.

The ports are tuned to 28 hertz so they are only going to impact in the low bass , not bass boom frequencies.

The issue is baffle realestate and where to if the ports, they can go anywhere.

The most effective was is the eq the woofer flat

Hi Ian,

I only wonder, may be, mid-bass (doggy box) with the back box wall would produce a kind of acoustic duct, so a kind of higher frequency box resonance can occur as such duct would divide internal volume into two smaller boxes. May be when the ports are somewhere in the middle between these boxes, such influence is less pronounced. All these are my speculations, and it would be interesting (for me, for sure) if someone nearer the JBL technical older stuff can put some "light" on such issue.

Measurements with 2242 drivers, in the box of about 220Lit, tuned on 26Hz with two ports near the bottom plate of the box, are shown.
These measurements are from (in) one vent . So the combined response bass+ driver would be as shown.
Interestingly that AkAbak simulation would predict such behaviors.

regards
ivica

[Ian Mackenzie]

I don't feel that is likely. Sorry.

When l stuff (sex with a JBL) my head in the 4345 there is lots of space.(box)

The ports a not far from the woofer.

Only a port on the rear bottom would make it different due to the wall floor junction.

The problem is port noise and compression if the port is restricted in any way?

Bo has proven well done EQ in a home cures all these issues of the 4345.

[BMWCCA]

. . . all these issues of the 4345.


There are issues with the 4345? :confused:

Not in my house! :D

[ivica]

There are issues with the 4345? :confused:

Not in my house! :D

Hi BMWCCA,

I would not expect such with 4345, as vents are somewhere in the middle of the box, as Akabak simulation has shown too, but it would be interesting to be seen (for me) the FR response from the port ONLY

Reagrds
Ivica

[Dr.db]

4344Mk II network on the left, 4355 (equivalent) network on the right. Both are bi-amp only. These aren't fancy at all, just built as quickly as possible to get the job done.

There are only four outputs on the boards since the rest of the 4344MK II network components come after the L-Pads. The second photo shows the L-Pad board with the 3.5 mH 7.5 ohm and 1.0 mH 7.5 ohm inductors.

469714697346972

Did you use the 3.5 mH 7.5 ohm and 1.0 mH 7.5 ohm inductors together with the 4355 (equivalent) or with the 4344 network?

Thanks a lot for your help! :)

[Ian Mackenzie]

see my post here
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?40127-JBL-4345-DIY-project-of-a-complete-Rookie&p=408762&viewfull=1#post408762

I hope to have some clarity on the soon

[Dr.db]

Thank you, but I can´t find anything regarding the inductors in your posts...

[Ian Mackenzie]

Thats because I have not done it yet.

Cant you tell I am out clubbing!

I will try and look at this over the next few days

[Ian Mackenzie]

Okay

Based on the voltage drives use this schematic without the conjugate.

The caveat is I am not sure 4313B optimised the 3155 for the 2123H so its a work in progress

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?27199-DIY-quot-4345-quot-Project&p=292188&viewfull=1#post292188

Use a bi amp 3rd order 18 db HP filter @290 hz.

At some stage when I have a 2445 driver handy I will look at the whole system in Leap with some 1/2 space LMS measurements

[Dr.db]

At some stage when I have a 2445 driver handy I will look at the whole system in Leap with some 1/2 space LMS measurements

That would be very kind of you, thanks in advance!

So your assumption is there are no such 3.5 mH 7.5 ohm and 1.0 mH 7.5 ohm inductors used in the 4355 network, right?

[Mannermusic]

Okay

Based on the voltage drives use this schematic without the conjugate.

The caveat is I am not sure 4313B optimised the 3155 for the 2123H so its a work in progress

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?27199-DIY-quot-4345-quot-Project&p=292188&viewfull=1#post292188

Use a bi amp 3rd order 18 db HP filter @290 hz.

At some stage when I have a 2445 driver handy I will look at the whole system in Leap with some 1/2 space LMS measurements



Ian: See post 132 re 2123 LEAP analysis vs 2202, etc. Giskard covered all that, several of us use it.

[Dr.db]

The caveat is I am not sure 4313B optimised the 3155 for the 2123H so its a work in progress


I think initially 4313B was going to adjust the 3155 equivalent network to mate the 2123h 10"-driver. But than he tried the 2123h with the untouched network and was suprised how similar it behaved to the 2202h and left it by that.
To my knowledge he never changed the lowpass, so the 2,4mh inductor and two 36mf capacitors remained...!?

[Ian Mackenzie]

Yep,

This thread takes some twists and turns. You can't just read one post to get it hence the questions back then and now.

In summary forum member 4313B ideas evolved after trialling several networks, the 3144mk11 , the 3145 equivalent, and the 3155 charge coupled.

Given this was a new enclosure build 4313B had flexibility to try the larger 2 inch 2446 compression driver (that won't quite fit with the standard stock mid range enclosure) and swapped out the 2122H for the 2123H.

It was easier to use the 3155 network to incorporate or shoe horn these ideas into a system and that is where it ended up with the modified 4345 enclosure (to fit 2445/6 compression driver).

In terms of what direction you want to take its real diy audio here. You are not cloning a JBL 4345 or the JBL 4344 here and it comes down to what's important to you, component availability, budget and of course you have to be able to make it work.(Pm me if you need support)

Essentially the quest was for greater system sensitivity for the upper three drivers so the Mid L pad was removed.
Its important to understand the 2445/6 won't fit in a stock and cloned 4345 enclosure.

I plan to get hold of the 2446 with the D8R2452H-SL diaphragm to evaluate.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I think initially 4313B was going to adjust the 3155 equivalent network to mate the 2123h 10"-driver. But than he tried the 2123h with the untouched network and was suprised how similar it behaved to the 2202h and left it by that.
To my knowledge he never changed the lowpass, so the 2,4mh inductor and two 36mf capacitors remained...!?

On reading the thread several times I think member 4313 was talking to those who he as making networks for and they kind of got it.

It sounds like a fun idea to try out.

I must say the presentation of the 4355 using the 3155 network with the 2 inch compression driver and the 12 inch 2202 never really impressed me the way the 4345 does. Yet others like the 2202.

Maybe the 2123 works better then the 2202?

I need to obtain a 2202 and try to out!

[ivica]

On reading the thread several times I think member 4313 was talking to those who he as making networks for and they kind of got it.

It sounds like a fun idea to try out.

I must say the presentation of the 4355 using the 3155 network with the 2 inch compression driver and the 12 inch 2202 never really impressed me the way the 4345 does. Yet others like the 2202.

Maybe the 2123 works better then the 2202?

I need to obtain a 2202 and try to out!

Hi Ian,

I have to say that , for ME, 2202 & 2441 (2450) &2311 &2308 combos are "light years ahead" then 2122 & 2420& 2307 & 2308

but I like 2245 (earlier models) more then dual 2235, as I prefer 2231A more then 2235.

regards
ivica

[Ian Mackenzie]

I think it depends on the important details.

I have no doubt in a purely diy system you can optimise the result with the 2202.

More than a few have resorted to adding a different horn ect on to of the 4355 to satisfy the expectation.

I also think it looks really cool!

Only a few have done such with the 4343-4345 but they have tried other compression drivers upgrades like the Tad 2002 and dusting the titanium diaphragm with acquaplas.

For a example the actual mid, hf and uhf driver layout on the baffle of the 4355 is not going to work as well as a vertical arrangement. I am betting l get flamed for saying that. But people are using the more advanced compression drivers than in the stock 4355 such SL version of the titanium diaphragm in the 2446 in purely diy systems. (Some still like the diamond surround aluminium diaphragms.)

But that is not a stock 4355.

That is diy audio doing what is a smart thing to do.

I personally found after rigorous investigation with another forum member upgrading to a Pass Lab discrete class A active crossover the biggest single improvement toward an audiophile experience with these vintage systems. Those who are lucky enough to own the JBL DX1 are aware of this.

They demand the finesse of enhanced passive crossovers and electronics like many older vintage systems.

If you need an efficiency hike on the top three drivers there's an option now.

Not everyone needs that and some purists win with an enhanced fully passive systems like the 4344 using their own hi end amps. I completely get that.

Of course each to their own desires, needs and resources and do what makes you happy.

Pm me if you have a specific question or need support.

[speakerdave]

In my SOTP fiddling around with the factory 4345 I found the large format JBL CD with a dusted diaphragm was a clear improvement over the stock treble arrangement (with an old diaphragm, however). The 2450 body, because of its shape, just fits around the midrange dog box when mounted on the 2311. I think the 4" diaphragms just sound better, even when crossed over at 1200Hz. That arrangement lost out, however, to TAD 2001 on the stock horn. No question. Used the stock crossover for all three set ups, making no measurements, and adjusting levels using my lucky dime, so this comment should be taken as miscellaneous anecdotal data, i.e. something maybe worth trying. Note that we who tried this wondered if successfully using the nominally 8 ohm TAD where the stock driver is 16 ohm may actually depend on the presence of the tapped inductor in the stock crossover, although just4kinks now indicates success with the redrawn 4345 crossover.

[Ian Mackenzie]

It's an interesting point.

Taking nothing away from main theme of this thread I actually heard Bo's 4345 with the Tad 2002 BE drivers and they are very nice.

As l recall they were almost a drop in modification.

I think that was before Bo upgraded to the Bryston active crossover.

Somethings just seem to work.

If you can still get them they are very expensive and wrong brand.

I was wondering if the 2450 neo 2 inch driver would fit?

Being pragmatic it fetches a big asking price (new US$1542 or US$599 each on eBay plus $150 for the SL diaphragm. That's a US1500 investment that might be out of reach.

We need to consider what those new to the game want to know before they take the plung on these systems

Putting it in perspective the 4345 with stock drivers is absolutely fine.

GT in the designer post has personally reviewed the important upgrades for the 4345.

Sometimes the journey is more than the end result.

Appreciate what you have so you can appreciate an upgrade.

Assuming you might be thinking about what's next having ticked GTs improvement list then enhanced drivers are a logical step.

But it won't be a 4345 no more. Something to consider.

So looking around at driver options Wrong Brand again but has anyone considered the 475BE PB 1.75 inch Radian Be drivers?

They are US$599 each from Usspeaker.com plus shipping.

I have not done the Maths on shipping but if they are close to the Tads in performance, fit the bolt circle and work with the equivalent crossovers it's something to investigate. I might pull the trigger on that and find out.

Then make some Jbl foil labels for the rear caps to make you feel better!

Another upgrade is lightly dusted stock titanium diaphragms. They have a less live character and you loose 1 db sensitivity so just adjust your Lpad

This is a relatively low cost non invasive upgrade and won't impact on the crossover network.
Okay as Dave points out it's not a 2 inch driver but it's a sensible improvement.

This is what l personally use in the 4345 and l own TAD 4003's.
Keep your original diaphragms for comparison.

I actually heard the acquaplas dusted JBL 275nd driver in Japan and it was very nice.

The 275nd had a "lighter" titanium diaphragm and was acquaplas coated and was used in the JBL 3100mk11 and the 4344mk11. Reference to the Library may find that driver in other models.

Unfortunately the 275nd is NLA. I have seen them on JP auctions but consider it a risk based acquisition.

[ivica]

Hi Ian,

I have to say that , for ME, 2202 & 2441 (2450) &2311 &2308 combos are "light years ahead" then 2122 & 2420& 2307 & 2308

but I like 2245 (earlier models) more then dual 2235, as I prefer 2231A more then 2235.

regards
ivica


Hi,

from time to time JBL 2450 (2-inch) can be seen on www.eaby.com that have reasonable price, about 300$
per piece, so adding about 100$ more for the NEW diaphragm ( Ti or Ti-SL) per driver, it can be , I think, very good
4345 upgrade. Finding 2311 horns can be much more tedious work in that situation.

ivica

[bldozier]

great job.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Yes those 2311 are rare these days.

I plan to look at it but l don't think it's appropriate to cast this modification as a "mandatory must have change" to the 4345 diy clone or an upgrade to the 43xx 4 ways. It could make the diy 4344-4345 look like some kind of elitist project.

When you look at cost realities people loose interest all together.

If you are going to spend that kind of money the justification is around a soa two way which some of us have done in other threads. Jbl are walking away from supporting parts and it's about maintaining what you have.

[ivica]

Yes those 2311 are rare these days.

I plan to look at it but l don't think it's appropriate to cast this modification as a "mandatory must have change" to the 4345 diy clone or an upgrade to the 43xx 4 ways. It could make the diy 4344-4345 look like some kind of elitist project.

When you look at cost realities people loose interest all together.

If you are going to spend that kind of money the justification is around a soa two way which some of us have done in other threads. Jbl are walking away from supporting parts and it's about maintaining what you have.

Hi Ian,

You are right that some the 2311 & 2308 , are rare to be found , but these days a pair of them can be get for 550U$D

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-JBL-2311-horns-with-2308-lenses-/322788995197?hash=item4b27b9307d:g:tBEAAOSwytlZsKu 8

usually lenses 2308 (pair) cost round 150 U$D, and may be some DIY work can convert SELENIUM HL14-50 (2inch short horn, 25 U$D per piece),
https://www.parts-express.com/selenium-hl14-50n-2-exponential-horn-45x45-4-bolt--264-316
to be used instead of JBL 2311. especially if are masked with 2308 lenses.
Mentioned horn is very similar to the JBL2311 (from the specification point of view), and applied a kind of lenses such as 2308 would spread horizontal dispersion of the driver&horn combo, making almost flat driver&horn&lenses FR response from about 1kHz to 10kHz.

Generally speaking JBL 244x/50 driver combined with 2311 horn and 2308 lenses would produce almost flat FR response from about 1kHz to 10kHz, so as 242x combined with JBL horn 2307 and 2308 lenses. I think larger drivers (244x/50) have several ( about 2dB) larger efficiency, then 242x drivers, but can be compensated with L-pads.

regards
ivica

[christo]

Hi Ian,

You are right that some the 2311 & 2308 , are rare to be found , but these day a pair of them can be get fro 550U$D

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-JBL-2311-horns-with-2308-lenses-/322788995197?hash=item4b27b9307d:g:tBEAAOSwytlZsKu 8

usually lenses 2308 (pair) cost round 150 U$D, and may be some DIY work can convert SELENIUM HL14-50 (2inch short horn, 25 U$D per piece),
https://www.parts-express.com/selenium-hl14-50n-2-exponential-horn-45x45-4-bolt--264-316
to be used instead of JBL 2311. especially if are masked with 2308 lenses.
Mentioned horn is very similar to the JBL2311 (from the specification point of view), and applied a kind of lenses such as 2308 would spread horizontal dispersion of the driver&horn combo, making almost flat driver&horn&lenses FR response from about 1kHz to 10kHz.

Generally speaking JBL 244x/50 driver combined with 2311 horn and 2308 lenses would produce almost flat FR response from about 1kHz to 10kHz, so as 242x combined with JBL horn 2307 and 2308 lenses. I think larger drivers (244x/50) have several ( about 2dB) larger efficiency, then 242x drivers, but can be compensated with L-pads.

regards
ivica

You might want to consider the information in this thread when considering the SELENIUM HL14-50 as a substitute for the 2311 with a 2308 lens.
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?38373-JBL-making-H93-2311-again

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hi Ian,

You are right that some the 2311 & 2308 , are rare to be found , but these days a pair of them can be get for 550U$D

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-JBL-2311-horns-with-2308-lenses-/322788995197?hash=item4b27b9307d:g:tBEAAOSwytlZsKu 8

usually lenses 2308 (pair) cost round 150 U$D, and may be some DIY work can convert SELENIUM HL14-50 (2inch short horn, 25 U$D per piece),
https://www.parts-express.com/selenium-hl14-50n-2-exponential-horn-45x45-4-bolt--264-316
to be used instead of JBL 2311. especially if are masked with 2308 lenses.
Mentioned horn is very similar to the JBL2311 (from the specification point of view), and applied a kind of lenses such as 2308 would spread horizontal dispersion of the driver&horn combo, making almost flat driver&horn&lenses FR response from about 1kHz to 10kHz.

Generally speaking JBL 244x/50 driver combined with 2311 horn and 2308 lenses would produce almost flat FR response from about 1kHz to 10kHz, so as 242x combined with JBL horn 2307 and 2308 lenses. I think larger drivers (244x/50) have several ( about 2dB) larger efficiency, then 242x drivers, but can be compensated with L-pads.

regards
ivica

As a general statement these old horn lens combinations may appear flat.

On close inspection with a precise measurement (LMS) the response is not flat as such but tilts.

Jbl put some effort into compensating for the tilt in the network voltage drives

The efforts to improve the smoothness of these systems progressed from the early 43xx to the later JBK4344mk11.

The measurements show subtle and no doubt audible variations.

At some stage l will post a series of measurements.

[ivica]

As a general statement these old horn lens combinations may appear flat.
On close inspection with a precise measurement (LMS) the response is not flat as such but tilts.
Jbl put some effort into compensating for the tilt in the network voltage drives
The efforts to improve the smoothness of these systems progressed from the early 43xx to the later JBK4344mk11.
The measurements show subtle and no doubt audible variations.
At some stage l will post a series of measurements.

Hi Ian,

From MY experience with 2311 & 2308 & 2441 (Radian dia), I have to agree with You that some small variations in the FR occur

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=63555&stc=1&d=1415358866
(http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=63555&stc=1&d=1415358866)

or 2445 (Ti-no-rib) 2311 &2308

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=60298&stc=1&d=1381156032

or 2445 and 2311 NO 2308

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=58399&stc=1&d=1363271915


and some of the forum members have said that combo is leak of 'imaging' but if looking on the horn size (including the lenses) I have
to say it is very "compact size" horn with quite large horizontal dispersion, and ALMOST flat FR response from about 1kHz to over 10kHz.
As in its construction there are large numbers of sharp edges, it is expect-able that a kind of reflections are present, so small amount of bouncing
in FR response is present.

regards
ivica

[1audiohack]

Hi All;

A question if I may:

Is there any signal shaping on the 2245 in the 4345?

I am running a dimensionally same box tuned right at 30Hz here in half space tonight and mine needs some boost in the bottom octave ie 30-60Hz.

Surely this will change in an enclosed space but I rarely test indoors but I am curious.

Thank you one and all.
Barry.

[Ian Mackenzie]

No

Only the low pass filter

The voltage drives are posted on the 4345 system reference forum

A loudspeaker is said to be in “half-space” when it is placed next to a large solid surface such as a wall or on the floor.

http://www.jblpro.com/pages/components/2245H.pdf
See page two for jbls measurements

(Check they are not out of phase...it’s easily done)

[ivica]

Hi All;

A question if I may:

Is there any signal shaping on the 2245 in the 4345?

I am running a dimensionally same box tuned right at 30Hz here in half space tonight and mine needs some boost in the bottom octave ie 30-60Hz.

Surely this will change in an enclosed space but I rarely test indoors but I am curious.

Thank you one and all.
Barry.

Hi Barry,
can You show some measurements

regards
ivica

[1audiohack]

No

Only the low pass filter...

Thank you. I just wanted to be sure.

Yes half space, on the ground with no other significant boundaries and just one box and driver.

Honestly it’s been a long time since I had a direct LF radiator out doors and it just seems, weak. ;)

I did not save any measurements, thought about it but didn’t.

Thank you guys.
Barry.

[ivica]

Thank you. I just wanted to be sure.

Yes half space, on the ground with no other significant boundaries and just one box and driver.

Honestly it’s been a long time since I had a direct LF radiator out doors and it just seems, weak. ;)

I did not save any measurements, thought about it but didn’t.

Thank you guys.
Barry.

Hi Barry,

Have you done so called "near field measurements " or several meters away from the speaker.
I am not sure how near field measurements behaves in 2pi or 4pi environment.
Regards
Ivica

[1audiohack]

Hello ivica;

I did not. No near field or ground plane. Just a quick measurment about 2meters away for time alignment and quick RTA for overall driver balance. Then a quick listen.

I have never used a 2245 for a woofer, just for subs and that was many years ago.

I have an idea to use a 2245, 2123, and 4338 horn driven with a 2450Sl or 2450Be so this was to see how the 2245 and 2123 would get along together.

Barry.

[ivica]

Hello ivica;

I did not. No near field or ground plane. Just a quick measurment about 2meters away for time alignment and quick RTA for overall driver balance. Then a quick listen.

I have never used a 2245 for a woofer, just for subs and that was many years ago.

I have an idea to use a 2245, 2123, and 4338 horn driven with a 2450Sl or 2450Be so this was to see how the 2245 and 2123 would get along together.

Barry.


Hi Barry,

That meansthat 2245 is not working as expected.
On some listening experience (no mesurements) not all 2245 sounded the same under the same other parts. Especially newly reconed units have not so nice bass response as an older units.
Regards
Ivica