Speaker Cable...quick recommendations

[Punch]

I did a search and it was pretty extensive.

A few questions:

McIntosh MA6500 IA to the 250Ti's

#1 Speaker cable recommendations? I was going to go with the Kubala-Sonsa with Spades for $250/pr for 7' I am a cable novice, and I am not sure I need to spend that much though I know others spend A LOT more.

#2 I will keep experimenting with the room, but is there an ideal distance between the speakers (audio stand is equidistant between them)? Should I be 6' on each side (12' apart total)...7'...8'??? I was not sure how much cable to get....I do not want it too long, but I also do not want it too short so I cannot spread them out even further if needed.

Thanks.

[hjames]

Why spend big money on cables when you can spend it on music instead?
check the last half dozen or so posts in this thread -
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=23092

Go to the 6 Moons site and look up the White Lghtning Moonshine cable article - basically its a white Walmart 40' extension 3-wire cord with the ends cut off and dual banana connectors soldered on. I bought 2 cords, cut them in half and made 2 pairs of 20' cables for my biamp monitors.

BMWCCA recommended it and I'll vouch for the quality sound!

For non-Biamp use, its $8 for the cable and maybe $24 for 4 high end connectors - certainly worth trying!

Markertek order for 8 of each (each cable needs one dual at each end)

8 [NYS508-B] Neutrik NYS508-B Dual Banana Plug - Black @$1.70/ea = $13.60
8 [NYS508-R] Neutrik NYS508-R Dual Banana Plug - Red @$1.78/ea = $14.24
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=42820&stc=1&d=1258163589

I did a search and it was pretty extensive.

A few questions:

McIntosh MA6500 IA to the 250Ti's

#1 Speaker cable recommendations? I was going to go with the Kubala-Sonsa with Spades for $250/pr for 7' I am a cable novice, and I am not sure I need to spend that much though I know others spend A LOT more.

#2 I will keep experimenting with the room, but is there an ideal distance between the speakers (audio stand is equidistant between them)? Should I be 6' on each side (12' apart total)...7'...8'??? I was not sure how much cable to get....I do not want it too long, but I also do not want it too short so I cannot spread them out even further if needed.

Thanks.

[Eaulive]

250 bucks for 7' of cable? :blink:

I'm in the wrong business :banghead:

[timc]

I'm confessing that I am among the cable nutters that spend $$$ on audiocables.

I'm also an electronics engeneer, and to be honest I actually see a connection between the makeup of the cables I think sound good, and their build up.

1. Good conductor area. The mm2 has to be sufficient+some to get the signal there.

2. Shielding. I have experienced wierd results with non-shielded and poorly shielded cables. Specially IC's

3. The RLC values of the cable. Some have very low C and some very low L. Some amplifiers seems to work best with one or the other. An example is a high power amplifier that just shuts down after a while with cables with high C and low L.


-Tim

[SEAWOLF97]

I did a search and it was pretty extensive.

A few questions:

#1 Speaker cable recommendations? I was going to go with the Kubala-Sonsa with Spades for $250/pr for 7' I am a cable novice, and I am not sure I need to spend that much though I know others spend A LOT more.

might as well make a little alter in front of the gear and start a bonfire fed by dollar bills....similar effects

I can imagine some of the forums great minds getting sick at the thought of spending $250 for 2 seven foot speaker cables...:barf:

sources is more important.

[Eaulive]

I'm confessing that I am among the cable nutters that spend $$$ on audiocables.

I'm also an electronics engeneer, and to be honest I actually see a connection between the makeup of the cables I think sound good, and their build up.

1. Good conductor area. The mm2 has to be sufficient+some to get the signal there.

2. Shielding. I have experienced wierd results with non-shielded and poorly shielded cables. Specially IC's

3. The RLC values of the cable. Some have very low C and some very low L. Some amplifiers seems to work best with one or the other. An example is a high power amplifier that just shuts down after a while with cables with high C and low L.


-Tim

Granted, the lowest resistance and reactance is desirable, hence a big cable is better, twisted is good, shielding is good also why not. But I really doubt there's an audible difference between cables as long as they're not made of 100' of 24 guage telephone wire :D

I never saw any serious and impartial study of A/B comparisons that leads to tangible results, and I'm not holding my breath for it. :)

[timc]

Well. If we only talk about the cable and forget the audioband for a bit, the differences are actually incredible. We used a network analyzer to determine som impedance stuff. When it was calibrated we could see the impedance change by only moving the cable while connected with BNC. Granted this was in the GHz range.

But another more practical example. I had a twisted IC with a tube power amplifier. It was designed using the UTP principle. When close to the power tubes it gave a small hum in the speakers (Klipsch RF's) Wraped some aluminum foil around it and connected to the chassis. Hum gone.


-Tim

[Punch]

You are all the best!

I swear, when I said I had no experience in this area, I meant, I have been doing the above for over 25 years, but I did not know what has changed. I never kept up with cable over the years because I really could not hear an audible difference...I always thought it was just me.

I thought that kind of money was crazy...I was going to ask Santa for it. If I asked him for $250 worth of cable, I think he would have put me on the naughty list for sure.

It is official, $250 cable :bs: Thread is closed.

[Eaulive]

Well. If we only talk about the cable and forget the audioband for a bit, the differences are actually incredible. We used a network analyzer to determine som impedance stuff. When it was calibrated we could see the impedance change by only moving the cable while connected with BNC. Granted this was in the GHz range

-Tim

No doubt about that, and I reckon you could measure differences between cables even in the audio range, but we all know that something measurable does not automatically becomes discernable.

I don't deny the fact that some cables are electrically superior, I just don't believe that different cables can produce a discernable change in audio quality, given they are not excessively small and long.

Bottom line, I don't believe anybody can hear a difference between 10' of #14 wall mart special and 10' of the super dooper oxygen free pure unobtainium natural unadultered triple layer latex isolation, even if the difference can be measured with special devices.:bs:

I'm waiting for the A/B test :D

[timc]

That might happen actually.

We are 3 people who want to try blind testing 3 different power cords. Stock and two types of Furutechs.

Might hapen in January or February.


It wont be scientificallly bulletproof, but we will try to make it count.


-Tim

[Punch]

I do not need interconnects, just speaker cable. So, I will need to find that patio cord (hope it is still around) and the LS4 Multi-Contact Banana Clips. I only need 8 (maybe 16) clips...does anyone have them for sale that bought them by the bulk?

[Punch]

Nevermind...here you all go:

http://www.audio-magus.com/category_s/21.htm

A little pricier that stated in the DIY article, but prices go up, and at least you do not need to buy 100.

[Eaulive]

That might happen actually.

We are 3 people who want to try blind testing 3 different power cords. Stock and two types of Furutechs.

Might hapen in January or February.


It wont be scientificallly bulletproof, but we will try to make it count.


-Tim

Interesting. The way I would do it is prepare different cable assemblies with the same kind and brand of connectors on each and have somebody not involved in the test swap them.
I would also tell the person to make some catch moves, like disconnecting and reconnecting the same cable ;)

Honestly, I'm interested in this, try to document and be as objective as possible.



--------------------------edit---------------------

Wait a minute, I just re-read your post..... power cords?????? :blink:

[Eaulive]

Nevermind...here you all go:

http://www.audio-magus.com/category_s/21.htm

A little pricier that stated in the DIY article, but prices go up, and at least you do not need to buy 100.

What I recommend you however is to get good connectors, Neutrik is a good brand and some guys have talked a lot about their banana connectors recently. (Neutrik's bananas, not their own :banana:)

Check out the end of this thread: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=23092

[Punch]

Will do...

Some said:

For the money this can't be beat...

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=109-064 (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=109-064)

I have no experience with it though.

I am not sure if I am going to order from Audio-Magus. 8 Banana clips....$9.50 to ship them :blink: I am not cheap, but I will not do that on principle alone. Put 'em in an envelope and slap a stamp on it.

[timc]

Yes. Power cords. We are a crazy bunch over here ;)

I was thinking of letting them hear cable A. Then play 2 others, where one of them is the same. The question beeing: Can they positively identify Cable A from the other.


-Tim

[Eaulive]

Yes. Power cords. We are a crazy bunch over here ;)

I was thinking of letting them hear cable A. Then play 2 others, where one of them is the same. The question beeing: Can they positively identify Cable A from the other.


-Tim

Well... I can understand the need to test different speaker cables even though I'm sure the difference, if any, will be inaudible. But the sound of power cables? :blink::dont-know:screwy:

Sorry, no offense intended but I'm at loss for words.

[jcrobso]

Yes, here we go again:blink:!!!
Power cord no less!!! P T Barnum all over again!!!:barf:

[BMWCCA]

I do not need interconnects, just speaker cable. So, I will need to find that patio cord (hope it is still around) and the LS4 Multi-Contact Banana Clips. I only need 8 (maybe 16) clips...does anyone have them for sale that bought them by the bulk?
I didn't make interconnects, either. My 4345s are bi-amped so I made four 10" speaker cables using 8 Neutrik dual-bananas but since I get so tired of overpaying at the local music store or Rat Shack for Chinese-made bananas, I bought 16 Neutriks so I'd be able to make more later. Markertek isn't the cheapest but they shipped incredibly fast. Shipping cost $10 so I ordered extra. I just have a thing against paying more for shipping than the product being shipped; call me odd! The whole order, including shipping, for enough Neutriks to make eight Moonshine cables, cost $38. That's less than $2.50 each, or still cheaper than Rat Shack's cheapest dual-bananas by over a buck, each. The Woods cable is still under $8 at WalMart. I just clicked the laptop and paid the freight to Markertek because I was tired of looking for better deals and some pros in the biz spoke highly of them. When it turned out they hadn't sent enough strain-relief "teeth", a quick call on their 800-number got me to a nice guy who knew just what I needed and had them to me in two days, no questions asked. I'm just happy they even bother with small orders like mine and in the end they probably lost money on me, but that was their fault, and I'll be back. ;)

I'm very happy with my 6Moon cables, but then I was happy with my 16-gauge Lowe's speaker cable, too. I didn't bother to A-B them. The 4345s sounded fine before and they sound fine now. But I feel better having the Neutriks, and the cables lay flat, look good, and seem to work just fine.

[SEAWOLF97]

I've been thinking about a pair of these speaker cables..

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=AQK2%20%20%20%20%20%2010PBFBF


AudioQuest - K2 - With 72v DBS - Speaker Cable
10' Pair - Price: $10,450.00

I wud've jumped, but need a 20 ft. pair ...hey, mebbe I can get 2 10ft. pairs and splice ?

Bet I cud then hear detail that isn't even in the music :blink:

[SEAWOLF97]

Yes, here we go again:blink:!!!
Power cord no less!!! P T Barnum all over again!!!:barf:

power cords are only a step towards audio nirvana ...then the wall outlets @$148 each...

But wait, there's more !! :bouncy:
http://www.musicdirect.com/product/82065

http://www.musicdirect.com/shared/images/products/large/m_wcp-z2.jpg (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29)


OYAIDE - DUAL DUPLEX CARBON FIBER WALL PLATE (Without Outlet) Mfr/Label: Oyaide Sku: AOYAWPCZ2 Category: Wall Plates Ships on or before: Ships In 24 Hrs* $345.00 ADD TO WISHLIST



OYAIDE - DUAL DUPLEX CARBON FIBER WALL PLATE (Without Outlet)


New Double Duplex Wall Plate from Oyaide! Combination of Carbon Fiber and Thick, Solid Aluminum!
Not only the coolest looking wall plate ever designed, this one has technology to back it up! The Oyaide Wall Plate Mounting Frame is milled from 13mm thick, solid aluminum, machined from a single block. Check out the picture of the rear, this is not an outer frame, but an essential part of the rigidity and resonance damping properties of the wall plate! The Carbon Fiber front panel is fully shielded, non-resonant and non-magnetic. The AC plug is the first link in your entire audio system, don't skimp on the A/C connection! 100% Money Back Guarantee!

[lgvenable]

Those dudes are smoking dope, $345 for an aluminum outlet cover, with carbon fiber glued to it??

not crazy just stupid!!

[Punch]

Does it come with the screws? If so, that is not a bad price.

http://www.jones-world.com/misc/emo/wtf.gif

I think I can handle that DIY

[lgvenable]

and I thought these were stupid and way too pricey

http://www.graniteaudio.com/cable/page3.html

but your cable price beats these?

BTW I know all about single crystal polysilicon, and how its grown in a Czochralski process reactor (spent my first 12 yrs as a semiconductor process engineer),

but I NEVER heard more BS than single crystal silver metal!

[kingpin11]

Well, I hope I don't get my knuckles wrapped for this, but I use Canare 4S11 cable. It has 4 conductors which you can use for bi-wiring or bi-amping, or you can just twist pairs together for a heavier cable which is what I do.

I like it. It's about 3/8" thick total with the jacket is very flexible and I kinda like the simple look of it.

http://bluejeanscable.com/store/speaker/index.htm


Mike

[Punch]

This cable is for the 250's....banana clips or spades? Audio Classics recommended Spades...

[Eaulive]

Well, I hope I don't get my knuckles wrapped for this, but I use Canare 4S11 cable. It has 4 conductors which you can use for bi-wiring or bi-amping, or you can just twist pairs together for a heavier cable which is what I do.

I like it. It's about 3/8" thick total with the jacket is very flexible and I kinda like the simple look of it.

http://bluejeanscable.com/store/speaker/index.htm


Mike

Very good cable, and at 1.29 a foot you can't go wrong.
However it's not a cable designed for bi-amp, it's a cable designed for long runs and the quad configuration helps limit cable radiation when properly connected with the same colours joined at each end.
If you look at the cable the conductors alternate red white red white and they twist on themselves as they go. For bi-amp you need to check continuity in order to properly make the connectors.

This cable was designed for TV studios where long, high voltage speaker lines could cause interference.

Their theory for making this cable makes sense, they don't try to sell you snake oil. Besides at that price you get a lot of copper :applaud:

[Eaulive]

and I thought these were stupid and way too pricey

http://www.graniteaudio.com/cable/page3.html

but your cable price beats these?

I really, really am in the wrong business. I should start making stuff for the audiofools. :banghead:

[lgvenable]

that's the truth

expensive cables = :barf:

kinda like a Bose speaker...if you get my meaning ... if you catch my drift....

[Mr. Widget]

Interesting. The way I would do it is prepare different cable assemblies with the same kind and brand of connectors on each and have somebody not involved in the test swap them.
I would also tell the person to make some catch moves, like disconnecting and reconnecting the same cable ;)

Honestly, I'm interested in this, try to document and be as objective as possible.



--------------------------edit---------------------

Wait a minute, I just re-read your post..... power cords?????? :blink:It has been done... (http://www.hifiwigwam.com/view_topic.php?id=1614&forum_id=34)

You have to read through a few million posts but I thought their dedication impressive and the outcome was rather interesting.


Widget

[Punch]

It has been done... (http://www.hifiwigwam.com/view_topic.php?id=1614&forum_id=34)

You have to read through a few million posts but I thought their dedication impressive and the outcome was rather interesting.


Widget

Great input...thanks Mr. Widget :coolness:

[Eaulive]

It has been done... (http://www.hifiwigwam.com/view_topic.php?id=1614&forum_id=34)

You have to read through a few million posts but I thought their dedication impressive and the outcome was rather interesting.


Widget

Funny, here are the highlights;

Post # 217

Any sign of the results? Yes? No?

In the meantime, here are some opinions on cable A (most expensive):


"A was that much leaner, that it took a while to distinguish between A&C."

"Worst sounding cable = A. Everything sounded dull and more recessed with cable A. Most of the dynamism and rhythm had disappeared. Awful sound -> like listening with cotton wool in my ears. I christened this cable “the strangler"

"A was best(by a tiny bit...had to listen hard and won't be shelling out for a replacement but V interesting"

"The "best sounding cable" was A"

"BTW, what I dislked about the "worst" cable (which I thought was A - the commercial audiophile) was that it was less open, more precussive and brighter. "
And cable C (the kettle lead)


"slightly veiled sound, bloated bass, slow timing, no air and space (restricted treble), overall balance was bass heavy."

"Worst cable: C - sounded a bit flat, less engaging, lacked texture compared to A and B"

"Best sounding cable = C. Retained the PR&T of my front-end. Good treble extension. Bass extension “just right”, not too “woolly”/bloomy. Overall I felt “aaahh, that’s my naim back again”

"The "worst sounding cable" was C"


"C (the undisclosed kettle) was better that D (the disclosed kettle) because it was "open (rather than tight), natural (more laid back than forward), darker (rather than bright)".

"what surprised me most is I reckon I thought the kettle lead was the best out of this group, and worth a hundred and fifty pound, (compared to the worst, which I wrongly assumed to be the kettle lead)"


And the final results post #225


---------------------------------snipped----------------------
In short
18 answers to the question The cable most like cable “D” was... 4 answered A , 6 answered B, 8 answered C

C=D, the result is p > 0.22, the test failed

And the next:

So in laymans terms. More people prefferred the kettle lead to the Audiophile lead, however that result could occur randomly 1 in 10 times.

There are a gazillion posts but yes, the test failed, the differences heard are uncorrelated, they can mean anything, hence there's no difference.

[BMWCCA]

There are a gazillion posts but yes, the test failed, the differences heard are uncorrelated, they can mean anything, hence there's no difference.I don't consider that a failure. It proves, somewhat, the people can "hear" a difference but that they don't agree on the differences. Which means there really aren't differences beyond what we must assume are psychological rather than physical. That is a valid finding.

Thanks for the summary. I looked at the site, went to the last page, backed up a few, and found the typical rants hard to read. The sample looked tiny but how it blew away opinions as prejudices was interesting. Glad I didn't have to read it!

I wasn't even interested enough to try to figure out what a "kettle lead" was from that exchange. I assumed it was some sort of Queen's English for appliance cord. Thanks, again, to Wikipedia:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bb/PC_flex_with_CEE_7-7_plug.png

[Eaulive]

I don't consider that a failure. It proves, somewhat, the people can "hear" a difference but that they don't agree on the differences. Which means there really aren't differences beyond what we must assume are psychological rather than physical. That is a valid finding.

Exactly.
Basically there were two "kettle leads" one identified and one hidden. The main objective was to find who will associate the two cables D and C. 8 out of 18 did the association so it's not enough to ensure validity that's why they say the test failed.

Basically, people heard differences, but they can not be objectively correlated. Mood, placebo effect, too much coffee / alcool the night before :D

Bottom line, if a cable makes you feel good, then enjoy your happiness :D

I enjoy the sound of my system, last night I ran a sweep and the results were atrocious, I won't dare post the results here, but hey, it sounds good to me ;)

[jcrobso]

http://store.audioholics.com/page/av_university#topic4

They have done a lot of cable testing, with very interesting results.

3 years ago over at C-net forums we were discussing cables and someone asked about a $2000 power cord.:rotfl:
My reply was that you are going to plug a $2000 power cord into $0.49 duplex outlet wired to the cheapest 14ga wire that the contractor could get AND some how the $2000 power cord will work magic and make your amp sound 2000 times better.:barf::bs:

There are people that took PT Barnum to heart and take unsuspecting people to the cleaners with all sorts of scams. Exotic cables are one of the scams.

[BMWCCA]

3 years ago over at C-net forums...

Speaking of C-net, scams, PT Barnum, etc, how 'bout our own local-boy-makes-good story on CNet's founder? Son of old friends:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halsey_Minor

and the local take: http://www.readthehook.com/blog/index.php/2009/12/01/courthouse-steps-minor-facing-million-dollar-foreclosure/

[Eaulive]

http://store.audioholics.com/page/av_university#topic4

They have done a lot of cable testing, with very interesting results.

3 years ago over at C-net forums we were discussing cables and someone asked about a $2000 power cord.:rotfl:
My reply was that you are going to plug a $2000 power cord into $0.49 duplex outlet wired to the cheapest 14ga wire that the contractor could get AND some how the $2000 power cord will work magic and make your amp sound 2000 times better.:barf::bs:

There are people that took PT Barnum to heart and take unsuspecting people to the cleaners with all sorts of scams. Exotic cables are one of the scams.

You can apply the same things to speakers. Why a humongous, car battery sized cable would make a difference when the interconnects in your speaker enclosures are made of stock #18 wire and crossovers are thin layers of copper on PC boards.
So are the wires and connections in your amplifier, and the leads of the power transistors :D

That being said, I believe speaker wires could make a tiny difference, but power cables? Gimme a break.
Unless of course you're trying to supply your power hungry class A amplifier with 50' of chinese white indoor extensions. :barf:

[4313B]

Bottom line, if a cable makes you feel good, then enjoy your happiness :D

Will do! :thmbsup:
.

[Eaulive]

Will do! :thmbsup:
.

You could get chastised and banned from an audiofool forum with a picture like this :D

[rusty jefferson]

You can apply the same things to speakers. Why a humongous, car battery sized cable would make a difference when the interconnects in your speaker enclosures are made of stock #18 wire and crossovers are thin layers of copper on PC boards.
So are the wires and connections in your amplifier, and the leads of the power transistors :DConsider these wires: http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/audioproducts/goldenhelixspeakercable.php

Best $100.00 wires around. I use the long run version, and I'm going to use it to rewire my 4412s.

Buy a set of car battery wires from Audio Advisor, and a set of these, try 'em out head to head against what your using now, and send one or both sets back if you can't hear a difference.

If your on a tight budget, try using 18 gauge bell wire[solid core] from an electrical supply co. It sounds very natural.

[Eaulive]

Consider these wires: http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/audioproducts/goldenhelixspeakercable.php

Best $100.00 wires around. I use the long run version, and I'm going to use it to rewire my 4412s.

Buy a set of car battery wires from Audio Advisor, and a set of these, try 'em out head to head against what your using now, and send one or both sets back if you can't hear a difference.

If your on a tight budget, try using 18 gauge bell wire[solid core] from an electrical supply co. It sounds very natural.

I won't hear the difference, I know my ears :D
So far I stick with my 2/16 or 2/14 SOW cord :bouncy:

[herki the cat]

Regarding Speaker Cables


Well, I hope I don't get my knuckles wrapped for this, but I use Canare 4S11 cable. It has 4 conductors which you can use for bi-wiring or bi-amping, or you can just twist pairs together for a heavier cable which is what I do. I like it. It's 3/8" thick total with the jacket is very flexible and I kinda like the simple look.



the Mfg'er of Canare 4S11 cable,Via Link < http://bluejeanscable.com/store/speaker/index.htm >states:

"The biggest issue in speaker cables, from the point of view of sound quality, is simply conductivity; lower cable resistance is important in realizing available "amplifier damping factor, and flat frequency response. While one can spend thousands of dollars on exotic speaker cable, in the end analysis, it's the sheer conductivity of the cable, & little else matters. "

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well__Speaker cables are required to preserve excellent "Group Delay", which simply stated means that "every signal of each different frequency in the "complex program spectrum" has to arrive at the speaker jointly at the same time in order to recreate the program spectrum collected by the microphone in the recording acoustic
environment, or venue, if you please.

What really happens in any simple conductor is that "all signals of decending frequenciy from 20,000 Hz down, do suffer a decrease in velocity in the conductor at a rate inversely proportional to frequency due to the fact, that as frequency decreases,the signal magnetic-field crowds toward the center of the conductor.

This is not the common "skin effect" which is solved by using litz wire mostly at RF. The solution?__ Use a hollow Pipe? Not quite ! __ Early speaker cables by Pope Inc., were constructed like a flexible copper sock woven around a 3/8" diameter hollow, long plastic tube with very limited results down to 500 or 600 Hz right where the critical Mid Bass spectrum begins.

Believe it or not, certain megabuck speaker cables do correct this problem. Mr. Bruce Brisson, CEO of MIT Inc "Constant Velocity" fame, recognized the Bell Telephone Laboratories Work with group delay, and began designing Simple Cables at Monstor Inc, and he now has several magnificient patents that describe the whole thing. I invite you to "google" for these patents, & also down load Bruce Brisson's numerous "white Papers" on the subject..

These cables are pricey, they will not cure problems with poor electronics in your system: but if your electronics are clean , high quality, you will realize improvements in quality comparable to replacing some other major expensive component in your system. This includes removing convential noisey solid state power supply rectifiers from all your system components & replacing them with Soft Recovery Rectifiers to eliminate rectifier stored energy that rings severely 120 times/second each time dc current stops flowing to the power supply filter capacitors. There is no other way to clean up a ringing power supply except with vacuum tube rectifiers.

Power cords__Why is the last 6 feet of AC power conduit so important when it is fed by 30 to 50 feet of house wirig? Your system components gossip to each other, not only from noisy solid state power supplys, but also all the Digital Trash, not to mention the AC power company contamination. A good deal of this noise is common mode which many power cord Mfg'rs clean up with elegant toroide cores and substantial multiple braided powercord shielding.

A well designed power cord will provide a substantial improvment in your system. MIT Inc. has a very effective power-conditioner package on thier excellent power cord designed by Dick Marsh, which provides a shunt-clamping "five Ohm Resistor Function" in a continuous band from 20,000 Hz down to almost 60 Hz.

You should seek a dealer that will demonstrate to you the difference in junk cables & excellent cables in a well organized demo system. Also a good dealer will make availeable to you "no cost" loan demo cables to try at home. I have been there.

The history on Group delay__ Bell Labs installed the first Transatlantic Telegraph Cable many decades ago resulting in a fabulous surprise. They found that it took a significant amount of time to send a telegraphic "Dot" & "Dash" but the massive "group delay distortion" in this cable distorted the code-pulse signatures so severely that the relatively simple "Dash" spectrum arrived ahead of the messed-up "Dot" spectrum. It was so bad that it took 4 hours to send a simple message so they could hold the key doen for several minites for each dot & dash.

The fix was very simple__they needed distributed inductance on the full length of this transatlantic cable to slow down the higher frequency spectrum__They accomplished this by wrapping "Mu Metal" high-permubility wire around the insulated copper conductor.Transmission speed came up to 50 words per minite.

The required bandwidth in this telegraph system is not comparable to the 20,000 Hz audio sound spectrum For example, 300 to 3000 Hz is very adequate for Land Telephone Communications. If you look up on telephone company poles at one mile intervals with a big iron bucket , that bucket is full of 10 millihenry coils used in series with each subscribers land line to provide distrubted inductance.

This group delay thing was described by a Dr. Heavy Side around 1845 in terms of human speech.This scientist 's name was adopted for our modern "HF Radio transmission signal propogation" which follows the earth's curvature.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
cheers herki the cat

[stephane RAME]

The CANARE 4S11 is a very good speaker cables.
Usable in mono or bi-wiring.

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=202218&postcount=41
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=213800&postcount=44

Stéphane :applaud:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=11750

[Punch]

So, do you think the White Lightning DIY is worth the trouble (since I cannot find the Multi-Stage banana clips for a decent price) or should I just go with the:

http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/aud...eakercable.php (http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/audioproducts/goldenhelixspeakercable.php)

Or the Blue Jean

Or ?????

I just wanted to keep a pair below $100...

[hjames]

So, do you think the White Lightning DIY is worth the trouble (since I cannot find the Multi-Stage banana clips for a decent price) or should I just go with the:

http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/aud...eakercable.php (http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/audioproducts/goldenhelixspeakercable.php)

Or the Blue Jean

Or ?????

I just wanted to keep a pair below $100...

I'd do the WLM power cord speaker cables ...
a 40' 3-wire extension cord is $8 - cut it to whatever length you need (I did a pair of 20' cables) ...
1 dual banana jack connector at each end - 4 total, that's like $8 for the connectors
(plus shipping from Markertek - I bought extra connectors just to have them)
but 2 speaker cables and 4 connectors is under $25 - certainly cheap enough to try!

[BMWCCA]

So, do you think the White Lightning DIY is worth the trouble (since I cannot find the Multi-Stage banana clips for a decent price).
Your logic astounds me. ;)

Buy 16 Neutrik dual-bananas and they're less than $2.50/each including shipping. You're probably gonna need some sort of terminals for the Mapleshade wires and four 10" pairs of their cheapest Golden Helix wires are $250 plus shipping. Even if you tried the Moonshine White Lightning and didn't like them you'd be out eight-bucks for the extension cord and still have the best dual-bananas cheaper than you can buy the cheapest from Rat Shack.

Of course if you feel the Helix wires are just fine and you don't need terminals, then don't use any on the White Lightning, either. Just tin them and shove them in your speakers. Without connectors, the White Lightning costs you $8 for two pair of ten-foot cables. Here's what your Mapleshade link says about connectors, and note the cost:
For best sound, we recommend connecting our cables directly to speaker binding posts using only their prepared, bare wire ends. Upon request, we will add pure copper spade lugs for $5 extra per termination or banana plugs for $7.50 each.
Or are you looking for the speaker-wire dollar menu for your JBLs? :banghead:

[Mr. Widget]

So, do you think the White Lightning DIY is worth the trouble (since I cannot find the Multi-Stage banana clips for a decent price) or should I just go with the:

http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/aud...eakercable.php (http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/audioproducts/goldenhelixspeakercable.php)

Or the Blue Jean

Or ?????

I just wanted to keep a pair below $100...Are you joking?


Widget

[4313B]

"The soundstage on my reference disc took on a whole new depth, the bass was noticably deeper & clearer, the vocals and guitar took on a startling new sense of smooth presence."

Yeah I know... his Madonna Greatest Hits reference disc sounds great now... woohoo... whatthefuckever... :rolleyes:

[Mr. Widget]

Yeah I know... his Madonna Greatest Hits reference disc sounds great now... woohoo... whatthefuckever... :rolleyes:From the Urban Dictionary

whatthefuckever - 3 definitions - Used when you think you are tottaly right, end of story.

I had no idea. :) That is a very useful word.


Widget

[Punch]

Are you joking?


Widget

I am not joking. By this Saturday, I will work over 110+ hours this week. I am not sure if anyone can comprehend that, so my time is pretty limited. I would rather buy something comparable than take the time to find the parts, buy the parts, and assemble the parts. As BMWCCA's jab at me in the cabinet care section earlier, this is the only place I can ask my questions and experiment so I get the correct and exact product that I need without shopping around too much.

Man, I gave up on this place almost 7 years ago because of similar comments to me and others. I think it is time to bow out. Thanks to everyone who has been a help to me here.

[Mr. Widget]

I am not joking. By this Saturday, I will work over 110+ hours this week. I am not sure if anyone can comprehend that, so my time is pretty limited. I would rather buy something comparable than take the time to find the parts, buy the parts, and assemble the parts. As BMWCCA's jab at me in the cabinet care section earlier, this is the only place I can ask my questions and experiment so I get the correct and exact product that I need without shopping around too much.

Man, I gave up on this place almost 7 years ago because of similar comments to me and others. I think it is time to bow out. Thanks to everyone who has been a help to me here.Sorry to ruffle your feathers... not my intention at all. My question wasn't your willingness to spend money as opposed to building something... my question was actually in earnest. From your posts it seemed that you were looking at the issue of wire almost randomly so I thought you might be cracking wise.

I must have misinterpreted your posts... it just seems to me, that unless you actually find a particular wire that you prefer over good old copper, why spend the money and in your case, your precious time on it. For the past few years I have been professionally involved in audio. The highest profit margins are in wire and cable... it is no wonder so much advertising and energy are spent there... in most cases, the simplest wire is the best. There really is no need to spend $100 on speaker wire. The money spent on music will be money better spent.

BTW: I have certainly had 110 hour weeks in the past getting 2 to 4 hours of sleep each night. Good luck with your project/work.


Widget

[4313B]

I had no idea. :) That is a very useful word.Me neither! I thought I'd just made it up on the fly and was going to get the credit! :(

:p

[Akira]

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=22658

Here is a link on this very subject: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Here is a question I ask the "audiophile" when it comes to the many myths that abound on the subject.
If a 10 million dollar recording studio uses double pair 10# guage copper wire, biamped, (4 conductor) wouldn't they switch to your magic wire that you use on your $5,000. system if it made a difference?

[Akira]

Man, I gave up on this place almost 7 years ago because of similar comments to me and others. I think it is time to bow out. Thanks to everyone who has been a help to me here.
Personally I hope you don't bow out. I've enjoyed your contributions over the years. But, in the end this is a forum and we human beings have opinions and ego's and a sneaking suspicion that we know more than the next guy. Sometimes we mean well but, don't always express it in a cordial way...but that too is human.
The other half of the equation: A forum can be a marvelous source of information, no matter how enlightened you may fancy yourself...you just have to sort through the B.S. and take the jabs with a grain of salt.

Keep in there friend.

[jcrobso]

Yes, we sometimes take little jabs at each other mostly in fun.

Each of has an opinion based his or her experiences, but we are all here because we like good sound and JBL speakers.

I'm the Chief Engineer at a FM radio station, I have 50 years of experience with sound engineering, wire, RF, JBL speakers, and all sorts of miscellaneous things, all of which I'm happy to share with other members.

Yes sometime we have go through a lot of sand to get that grain of salt, but I feel it is worth it, many times I have had a real good laugh reading some of the posts.

[Eaulive]

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=22658

Here is a link on this very subject: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Here is a question I ask the "audiophile" when it comes to the many myths that abound on the subject.
If a 10 million dollar recording studio uses double pair 10# guage copper wire, biamped, (4 conductor) wouldn't they switch to your magic wire that you use on your $5,000. system if it made a difference?

I was making often the similar remarks to the videophools who spend hundreds of dollars in those exotic 6' long coaxial cables to go from their gear to the monitors.

Did you know that the million dollar TV studios all over the planet are wired with kilometers of the ubiquitous Belden 1694A blue coax at 50 cents a foot (retail) :applaud:

[Punch]

Well, 25+ years in a way.

Here is the history. I started as a stereo fan when I was 12 in 1982...hanging out in a stereo shop by my dad's restaurant. I was hooked.

Bought my 4301s for $95...connected to a $195 Yamaha receiver, Yamaha CD player, and a Panasonic table. I saw my first pair of 250's when I bought that CD player in '86 or '87. By 1987, I had no stereo set-up for 15 years, from 1988 to 2003. Short story, I was not able to have one....a lot of school, no money, no time.

Then I set up a system again in 2003 when I joined Lansing Heritage (NAD Int. Amp, Rotel CD player, and bought 166s)...everything back in storage from 2006 until 2009...bought my McIntosh pieces....started to look for the 250Ti's...then it was today, 12/17/09.

So, I have a lot of questions because I have so much catching up to do. I really have no idea about some of things you all talk about...I am trying to learn each day. Please bear with me....My thread starting and posting has been a bit messy. I am not a rookie when it comes to forums. I have been pretty excited about the new acquisitions, and I have been brainstorming all over the place. I have not had that "kid in a candy store" feeling in a long, long time. I have really been enjoying myself here again. I am not anywhere near the level that most of you are at. College, medical school, residency, etc. made me lose about 17 years of my life and a lot of my interests along the way.

I'll just take a break...take a deep breath, and look back at all of your contributions to my questions, which I am grateful for. Thanks again and I am sorry.

[jcrobso]

I am not joking. By this Saturday, I will work over 110+ hours this week. I am not sure if anyone can comprehend that, so my time is pretty limited. I would rather buy something comparable than take the time to find the parts, buy the parts, and assemble the parts. As BMWCCA's jab at me in the cabinet care section earlier, this is the only place I can ask my questions and experiment so I get the correct and exact product that I need without shopping around too much.

Man, I gave up on this place almost 7 years ago because of similar comments to me and others. I think it is time to bow out. Thanks to everyone who has been a help to me here.
PM me and maybe we can do lunch?:)

[boputnam]

Personally I hope you don't bow out...+1

Don't let folks here get under your skin. If they're gruff or rough, just realize that they are probably nice in person - they just spend too much time out here and courtesy can get lost... :)

[kingpin11]

Well, 25+ years in a way.

Here is the history. I started as a stereo fan when I was 12 in 1982...hanging out in a stereo shop by my dad's restaurant. I was hooked.

Bought my 4301s for $95...connected to a $195 Yamaha receiver, Yamaha CD player, and a Panasonic table. I saw my first pair of 250's when I bought that CD player in '86 or '87. By 1987, I had no stereo set-up for 15 years, from 1988 to 2003. Short story, I was not able to have one....a lot of school, no money, no time.

Then I set up a system again in 2003 when I joined Lansing Heritage (NAD Int. Amp, Rotel CD player, and bought 166s)...everything back in storage from 2006 until 2009...bought my McIntosh pieces....started to look for the 250Ti's...then it was today, 12/17/09.

So, I have a lot of questions because I have so much catching up to do. I really have no idea about some of things you all talk about...I am trying to learn each day. Please bear with me....My thread starting and posting has been a bit messy. I am not a rookie when it comes to forums. I have been pretty excited about the new acquisitions, and I have been brainstorming all over the place. I have not had that "kid in a candy store" feeling in a long, long time. I have really been enjoying myself here again. I am not anywhere near the level that most of you are at. College, medical school, residency, etc. made me lose about 17 years of my life and a lot of my interests along the way.

I'll just take a break...take a deep breath, and look back at all of your contributions to my questions, which I am grateful for. Thanks again and I am sorry.

I used to be in a similar situation...well kinda'.
A couple years ago I built a set of of speakers that cost around $3000 to build from a ht forum with very well respected members.
It took me over a year to build these speakers and it came to a point where I was questioning everything from screws to glue to wires. It came to a point where the information available started to become information overload with everyones different views and opinions.
I ended up following the advice of only a select couple of members not because I didnt think others didnt know what they were talking about, but the 150 years of combined wisdom of building speakers of these select members was enough for me.
I simplified my thoughts not my design and my goals and built a world class set of speakers that I fell in love with until I had to sell them cause they wouldn't fit in my place.

In essence, the worst that can happen with some of the decisions you make can be undone quickly, easily and inexpensively. As for your time or limited time...we have all been there and 110 hours is something alot of us are doing these days just to try and pay the bills.

Good Luck and whatever decisions you make you will almost always be second guessing yourself. It's just human nature.

Mike

[rusty jefferson]

Here is a question I ask the "audiophile" when it comes to the many myths that abound on the subject.
If a 10 million dollar recording studio uses double pair 10# guage copper wire, biamped, (4 conductor) wouldn't they switch to your magic wire that you use on your $5,000. system if it made a difference?I have a friend who used to work at this studio at the time this photo was taken, in the late '70s. Pretty much anyone who visited thought it sounded good in there.

Some people, however, think music at home should sound like the music on the other side of that glass wall. 4or5 guys playing right in front of you. No overdubs, mixing boards, digital processors, pitch enhancers, Dolby noise reduction, etc. Some people like a "produced" sound, and some don't. The guy who runs Mapleshade is the latter. As well as making those crazy looking wires, he also runs a small recording studio out of his home. He records straight to two track tape. No board, no nothing. Just a couple of microphones into the tape machine. And all the mic wire is his own. It imparts a very natural sound to his records. It's hard to describe, but check out one of his recordings. You might like the sound of being "in the room" with a quintet. Or not. But please don't assume things like mic wire, inter-connects, or speaker wire have no effect for everyone. They may not have an effect on you, or your system, but I've heard enough difference in my system, to not return those $100.00 speaker wires.

[Mr. Widget]

The guy who runs Mapleshade is the latter. As well as making those crazy looking wires, he also runs a small recording studio out of his home. He records straight to two track tape. No board, no nothing. Just a couple of microphones into the tape machine. And all the mic wire is his own. It imparts a very natural sound to his records. I would submit it is his recording technique far more than the wire he uses or sells that imparts that "special" sound.

I have a couple of the Mapleshade CDs. When you listen to them you can hear how he chooses to let a lot of the room into the "mix"... i.e. he has the mics backed off a bit to capture the musicians and the reverberant sound of the rather empty and live environment they are playing in. As you so correctly point out, not everyone will like this sound just as not everyone will like a very polished and heavily produced and overdubbed type of sound. I like some of the Mapleshade recordings that are on a sampler I have. Some of the recordings don't work in my opinion, but some are quite excellent.

While, I'll agree that everything in the recording chain will have an effect on the final sound, I really doubt it is the home brew wires that he sells that are the most influential on the sound. Here is a quote from their on line catalog:

"Startling as it may seem, you ought to be just as concerned about your audio cables. I’ve heard $2000 speakers with off-therack wires that sounded worse than little $100 Radio Shacks with good cables."

While it might be possible to find a pair of terrible $2K speakers or speaker wires that will sound worse than a pair of $100 Radio Shack speakers with the best wire known to man... I'd submit, no wire will make a pair of $100 Radio Shack speakers sound better than a pair of Revel M22s ($1998.00 retail) that are wired with 15¢ a foot zip cord.


Widget

[Eaulive]

They may not have an effect on you, or your system, but I've heard enough difference in my system, to not return those $100.00 speaker wires.

You just hit the nail squarely on the head.

I certainly don't want to imply anything here, but there is a powerful and proven psychological reflex that will make you hear a difference so you won't be dissapointed by your investment.

It's hard to admit (consciously or not) that the big bucks you just spent are not producing any results.

[timc]

But what about the other way around? I have experienced putting in a more expensive cable and, the sound became worse.

Anyway. I can't believe that my statement about wanting to actually blindtest a set of cables have created this much stirr.....

All i wanted was to do a scientific viable little test.

-Tim

[Mr. Widget]

Anyway. I can't believe that my statement about wanting to actually blindtest a set of cables have created this much stirr.....I don't think, YOUR comment did.

Did you follow the link I posted about power cables. It essentially followed your plan with over 20 participants in a true double blind test. It would be interesting to have a much larger sample, but who would fund such a test... certainly not the magazines who earn money reviewing such devices. ;)


Widget

[Eaulive]

I don't think, YOUR comment did.


Widget

Certainly not, that stir has been going on for quite some time now :)

[jcrobso]

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=109-160
Or
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=109-062
Or if you want to spend a little more on speaker cable.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=100-942

[timc]

I don't think, YOUR comment did.

Did you follow the link I posted about power cables. It essentially followed your plan with over 20 participants in a true double blind test. It would be interesting to have a much larger sample, but who would fund such a test... certainly not the magazines who earn money reviewing such devices. ;)


Widget

I read much of the thread, and i have to say I did not like the way that test was done. There were too many variables. Different setups, different rooms. I also believe that testing more than 1 parametres at once is a mistake. The thing is. IF there is a real difference, is it not logical to think that the difference would make different impact in different setups? We don't know anything about the sonic character of the systems used by the testers.

In my mind a test like this has to be done on the same system, if one wants to determine what differences there are. I will keep my test much simpler.

Listen seeing to A and B. And then several repeats where we don't know wich one is playing, and try do identify it.


-Tim

[Allanvh5150]

With metal being metal and electrons being electrons, conductivity wise there is very little difference in the type of conductor or the size. Obviously for large power inputs one would want to select a larger conductor size. The ultimate cable would be 2 single enammeled copper conductors, spaced appart and mounted in some way as to protect them. This setup has very little inductance and very little capacitance. However, it is not really practical. For speakers one could use standard 1.5mm twin circular flex or in high power aplications go to 2.5mm. Interconnects are a bit different and it is ideal to select a low capacitence cable. I prefer to make my own cables because is is very easy to find high quality cable and connectors. Cheap cables are what they are. Super expensive cables are for people who want to feel good about thier purchase by knowing that they purchased the most expensive cable. They are also for people with more money than sense.

I am not saying that the expensive cables are not better than the cheapies, they are. But compare a 5 dollar cable to a 50 dollar one and most people will notice the difference. Compare a 50 dollar cable to a 500 dollar cable and the difference will probably only be noticed by the people that percieve that the expensive cable must "sound" better.

My choices for speaker cable are standard circular flex. It is cheap and performs very well.

With interconnect cables I use standard balanced cable of low capacitance, with a uniform twist on the conductors and with a tight woven screen with a foil screen over the top. Many cable manufacturers also offer the cable in different colours.

Allan.

[jcrobso]

A $100 pair of cables will not sound 5 times better than $20 pair cables, except in the listeners mind.
I call this the Emperor's New Cloths syndrome.:blink:

[SEAWOLF97]

Many cable manufacturers also offer the cable in different colours.
.

Be very careful ...clear cable sounds better than colored ...

"And Timbre features clear teflon dialectric instead of colored for less impact on the sound" :barf:

its from an audiopile catalog,,,,so it must be true..

[Allanvh5150]

Obviously! You can also sit and watch the sound running through the cable as well. However, teflon is the ultimate covering but it is a bit pointless at audio freqencies.

Allan.

[Audiobeer]

I thought it was all nonsense untill a buddy of mine had me run my cables on top of hockey pucks. The difference was like night and day and it didn't stop there. If I froze my hockey pucks a few hours before listening to music......well the difference was over the top baby!

[hjames]

Yeah, this discussion covers the same ground every time it comes up.

I used to work with microwave transmitters and that kind of RF signal travels through wave guide - at 2.6gHz.
People have spoken of skin effect here and related high losses due to that, but it just isn't relevant at audio frequencies.

Once you are using good clean copper at a significant diameter, upgrading beyond that is just diminishing returns, especially at mega dollar prices!


I thought it was all nonsense untill a buddy of mine had me run my cables on top of hockey pucks. The difference was like night and day and it didn't stop there. If I froze my hockey pucks a few hours before listening to music......well the difference was over the top baby!

Skatin' on thin ice, there Audiobeer!

[grumpy]

Frozen Hostess Ding-Dongs work too, and no one will know they're not
hockey pucks (unless you leave them too close to that Class-A amp).

Note: If you leave the foil on, and you don't have an insect problem,
you can eat them later.

[Uncle Paul]

Yeah, this discussion covers the same ground every time it comes up.

I used to work with microwave transmitters and that kind of RF signal travels through wave guide - at 2.6gHz.
People have spoken of skin effect here and related high losses due to that, but it just isn't relevant at audio frequencies.

Once you are using good clean copper at a significant diameter, upgrading beyond that is just diminishing returns, especially at mega dollar prices

Exactly. If esoteric makes you feel better about your gear, go for it, but outside of a placebo effect it won't improve sound quality.

[Mr. Widget]

Exactly. If esoteric makes you feel better about your gear, go for it, but outside of a placebo effect it won't improve sound quality.Well... sorta, kinda.

Some of the exotic cables will actually change the sound of some speakers due to the cable's inherent capacitance or due to the networks that are sometimes incorporated. So the cable you try might make the sound better while another might go the other way. Trying to find the one cable that compliments a particular loudspeaker and amplifier combination seems pretty random to me.

I am definitely in the pure copper camp myself. I have no desire to attempt to equalize my speakers with a system of unknowns in such a random way. That said, I'll try the frozen hockey pucks. That sounds like a sound approach. :D


Widget

[jcrobso]

Yeah, this discussion covers the same ground every time it comes up.

I used to work with microwave transmitters and that kind of RF signal travels through wave guide - at 2.6gHz.
People have spoken of skin effect here and related high losses due to that, but it just isn't relevant at audio frequencies.

Once you are using good clean copper at a significant diameter, upgrading beyond that is just diminishing returns, especially at mega dollar prices!



Skatin' on thin ice, there Audiobeer!

I world to sell that person the Brooklyn Bridge, I'm sure he would buy it.;)

There is so much FUD about cables. Things that you need to to consider when working with RF DON'T APPLY AT AUDIO FREQUENCIES! But the makers of expensive cables try to make you believe that they do but using junk science!:banghead:
My be we should make a sticky on this subject so we don't have to though this all the time. I know over at C-net cables come up from time to time also.

[Eaulive]

In my opinion the best money spent has to be in one of those amazing accessories: http://www.vhaudio.com/miscellaneous.html#rr-77














Ok, I'm outta here :uhmmmm::rotfl:

[jcrobso]

1
In my opinion the best money spent has to be in one of those amazing accessories: http://www.vhaudio.com/miscellaneous.html#rr-77
WOW you you believe this? :bs:














Ok, I'm outta here :uhmmmm::rotfl:

[Eaulive]

You gotta be f***ing kidding me....
http://www.acoustic-revive.com/english/psa100/psa100_01.html

[Allanvh5150]

In my opinion the best money spent has to be in one of those amazing accessories: http://www.vhaudio.com/miscellaneous.html#rr-77
Ok, I'm outta here :uhmmmm::rotfl:

I've gotta get me one of those CD de-maggers!

[Allanvh5150]

Here is another must have!

http://www.musicdirect.com/product/73367

[Mr. Widget]

Here is another must have!

http://www.musicdirect.com/product/73367Let's burn-in those power cords! Put a load on your wires and heat 'em up... that sounds smart!

Widget

[duaneage]

http://www.vhaudio.com/acoustic-revive-rd-3.html

CD demagnetization. Nice. Brought to you by the same people who make this:

http://www.kjmagnetics.com/fuelmagnet.asp

Don't forget the blue markers for the edge treatment of CDs as well.

[duaneage]

You gotta be f***ing kidding me....
http://www.acoustic-revive.com/english/psa100/psa100_01.html

ROTFLMAO

I wonder if Blue or Green fuzz works better and should the lights be on or off in the room?

[Allanvh5150]

Let's burn-in those power cords! Put a load on your wires and heat 'em up... that sounds smart!

Widget

No, its not quite that simple. It has to be for 72+ hours......

[Audiobeer]

I world to sell that person the Brooklyn Bridge, I'm sure he would buy it.;)

There is so much FUD about cables. Things that you need to to consider when working with RF DON'T APPLY AT AUDIO FREQUENCIES! But the makers of expensive cables try to make you believe that they do but using junk science!:banghead:
My be we should make a sticky on this subject so we don't have to though this all the time. I know over at C-net cables come up from time to time also.

Anytime, anywhere there is an audio discussion you're going to get a debate on cables, interconnects, ect. I wish I had the money that some spend on these items. I bought an amp on Audiogon a few years back where the seller was just asking too much for an amp IMHO and I countered with what I felt was a great offer. He not only accepted but dropped the price another $200 if he could keep the power cord he had with the amp. If some people can hear it the differences I tip my hat to them. I simply cannot. I have actualy heard improvements in my speakers from going from High end cables to simple 16 guage zip wire to the L-300s I once owned. I cannot explain that. Grumpy the frozen Ding Dongs are in fact better than the frozen hockey pucks. I don't think everyone got it other than Heatheran you. But the ding dongs actualy have a soothing dampening effect on the sound as they melt. I am a believer!

[BMWCCA]

Grumpy the frozen Ding Dongs are in fact better than the frozen hockey pucks. I don't think everyone got it other than Heatheran you. But the ding dongs actualy have a soothing dampening effect on the sound as they melt. I am a believer!I find the innate resiliency of the covering on the Hostess Snowballs works much better, especially once the DingDongs thaw.

Last ones I bought were 12¢ for a pack of two. ;)

[Uncle Paul]

I have actualy heard improvements in my speakers from going from High end cables to simple 16 guage zip wire to the L-300s I once owned. I cannot explain that.

Widget may have given a bit of a clue to this above. Pretty much anything you pass an alternating current through will display a certain amount of resistance, capacitance, and inductance. A resistor, for example, is mostly resistive, but will have a small, and usually insignificant amount of capacitance and inductance. Likewise for capacitors and inductors.

Ideally, a conductor such as speaker wire will have no resistance, capacitance, or inductance (or any other unwanted electrical characteristic) as these change the circuit and can affect the sound. As a practical matter the best you can do is to get minimal amounts of these electrical characteristics. To achieve this you want a decent guage of wire (based on the run) that is well insolated. Some wires have a spacer between the two conductors to further improve insolation.

Beyond that, pretty much anything you do will change it's electrical behaviour (including coiling a too long cable) as a conductor. This is why I stick to to the basics and possibly why your 16 gauge zip cord works well for you. That's theory number 1. :blah:

Theory number 2 is that when your L300's were developed, 16 gauge zipcord was considered pretty spiffy and was possibly what the engineers used when they measured and tweaked the system. :hmm:

[jcrobso]

http://deoxy.org/emperors.htm

I heard this story when I was in 1st grade, I identified with the boy at the end of the story.

[jcrobso]

I find the innate resiliency of the covering on the Hostess Snowballs works much better, especially once the DingDongs thaw.

Last ones I bought were 12¢ for a pack of two. ;)
The shape of the Twinkies and the cream filling create a capacitive/inductance canceling field and the wire will become a superconductor at room temperatures. :bs:
Hey, I can do junk science as well as anyone!:blink:

[SEAWOLF97]

NEVER use speaker cables shorter than 8'. Amazingly, 4' sounds much worse than 8'. Contrary to common belief, shorter interconnects (2 m or less) and longer speaker cables sound WAY BETTER than the opposite—based on extensive head-to-head tests.


Free Audio Upgrades:
http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/aud...alupgrades.php (http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/audioproducts/generalupgrades.php)



• Almost everybody sits way too far from their speakers, that is, 8' to 10' or more. Try a low chair (or floor pillow) 5' away. You'll hear a phenomenal increase in clarity, bass impact and soundstage—roughly like spending 100% more on your speakers.
• Nearly everybody sits too high. The "tweeters at ear level"rule sounds logical but fails when tested. For a test, sit on one or two phone books: you'll hear an amazing new warmth and fullness in baritone voice, trombones, tenor sax, plucked bass—and a far more natural treble balance.
• For much improved bass and huge soundstage, put your listening chair or sofa right against the wall behind you. Move your speakers in to 5' in front of you and 7' or more apart. No room treatments will yield this much bass improvement.
• Lift all speaker, power and interconnect wires 8" off any non-wool carpet or plastic tile. Use string, wood, cardboard or 20 ounce Styrofoam cups for temporary props. You'll think you've pulled horse blankets off your speakers. For a more civilized-looking solution, see here (http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/audioproducts/cablelifts.php).
• Remove your speaker's cloth or foam grill. Snip off any plastic phase ring in front of the tweeter. You'll hear as much as a 100% improvement in treble.
• Almost all small speakers are on stands that are way too high (24" and up)—and, all too often, too flimsy. Want to hear how much bass and warmth your speakers are losing? Try 'em on the floor, tilted back with a wood or metal block under the front. If you're on carpet, lay down a heavy plank or cutting board first. See here (http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/audioproducts/bedrock.php) for even better sounding solutions.
• Speakers on stands or shelves MUST use feet, but never soft ones: no rubber/plastic feet, Blu-Tack, Sorbathane, etc. For firmer bass plus clearer mids and treble, try speakers on three hardware store wood plugs or buttons. See here (http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/audioproducts/surefoot.php) to get 2-3 times the effect.
• Ditto for all CD players, amps, power supplies, etc. If the wood buttons aren't high enough, try three wood blocks (3/4" or so), to raise components off their rubber/plastic feet. You'll hear an instant bass-to-treble upgrade. Of course, stacking components is the worst of all worlds: you're failing to drain vibrations and forcing the components to share vibes.


•For seamless subwoofer sound, use only the speaker cable input, not the RCA input. In addition, connect the two main speakers directly to the main amp output, not to the subwoofer's output. Always fire the subwoofer driver left or right, not at you or down into the floor. Set the crossover at the lowest possible frequency that doesn't leave a bass gap. You'll be amazed at the overall transparency you gain.
• Contrary to manufacturer hype, subwoofer placement is crucial. To get clean bass attacks, subwoofers must be precisely (±1") the same distance from your ear as the midrange driver. Corner placement always leads to boom. Also, subwoofers sound much cleaner on cones than on spikes or rubber feet.
• If you have bi-wirable speakers with brass jumper plates, replace the terrible-sounding plates with bare, unstranded copper wire. For a jumper that's much better yet, see here (http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/audioproducts/speakercables_hub.php). If you bi-wire, separate the treble and bass cables by 1' or more; bundling wires will ruin most of the bi-wire advantage. Bi-wiring is worth doing only for cables with limited bass and treble.
• For any separate power supply: listen, then turn it 90 degrees, turn another 90 degrees, etc. One of the four positions will sound way better (due to non-uniform transformer leakage). In addition, separate power supplies are even more vibration-sensitive than the components; see here (http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/audioproducts/surefoot.php) for the solution.
• You can't believe the extra harshness and grunge you hear due to home appliances "poisoning" the AC power with electrical noise. To really sweeten your sound, try turning off every fluorescent and halogen light in the house, as well as air conditioning, oil burner, electric stove, dimmer and CD boombox; unplug every surge protector, digital TV, computer and U.P.S. (because they all have "sleep" modes). No power conditioner and AC filter stops this "poisoning".
• Weight on top of speakers, amps, CD players, transformers, turntables, and power supplies can tighten bass, clean up treble and clarify midrange detail.
• Too much weight, wrong placement, or wrong materials seriously degrade potential improvements. Don't use lead, sand, concrete, brick, stone, corian or damped laminates. Of course, brass is still best; next iron, then wood.
• The right way to add weight is one (or 1/2) pound at a time. Listen, then add one more. Eventually, one more will deaden everything. Remove the last weight, then move the weights around to find the sweet spots.
• Weights are much more effective if you've replaced rubber feet (or no feet) with wood or brass footers.
• To audibly improve any cheap interconnect, use a razor to carefully peel the thin plastic insulation off the braided metal you'll find underneath. Split 2-channel interconnects and separate the two by several inches. Cut heat shrink and plastic strain reliefs off the back of RCA plugs and remove their metal barrels (if possible). Amoung generic wires, choose the skinniest for best sound.
• For speaker, AC and wall wart power cables always split two-conductor wires and separate by at least 6". Don't forget to keep all wires off artificial fiber rugs and de-static them regularly.
•Never bundle wires, no matter whether AC, speaker or IC. If you must run wires parallel for more than a foot, separate them by 6" or more. Wires that cross at at 45 degrees or more can touch without any sonic degradation.

[Akira]

Regarding Speaker Cables




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well__Speaker cables are required to preserve excellent "Group Delay", which simply stated means that "every signal of each different frequency in the "complex program spectrum" has to arrive at the speaker jointly at the same time in order to recreate the program spectrum collected by the microphone in the recording acoustic
environment, or venue, if you please.

What really happens in any simple conductor is that "all signals of decending frequenciy from 20,000 Hz down, do suffer a decrease in velocity in the conductor at a rate inversely proportional to frequency due to the fact, that as frequency decreases,the signal magnetic-field crowds toward the center of the conductor.

This is not the common "skin effect" which is solved by using litz wire mostly at RF. The solution?__ Use a hollow Pipe? Not quite ! __ Early speaker cables by Pope Inc., were constructed like a flexible copper sock woven around a 3/8" diameter hollow, long plastic tube with very limited results down to 500 or 600 Hz right where the critical Mid Bass spectrum begins.

Believe it or not, certain megabuck speaker cables do correct this problem. Mr. Bruce Brisson, CEO of MIT Inc "Constant Velocity" fame, recognized the Bell Telephone Laboratories Work with group delay, and began designing Simple Cables at Monstor Inc, and he now has several magnificient patents that describe the whole thing. I invite you to "google" for these patents, & also down load Bruce Brisson's numerous "white Papers" on the subject..

These cables are pricey, they will not cure problems with poor electronics in your system: but if your electronics are clean , high quality, you will realize improvements in quality comparable to replacing some other major expensive component in your system. This includes removing convential noisey solid state power supply rectifiers from all your system components & replacing them with Soft Recovery Rectifiers to eliminate rectifier stored energy that rings severely 120 times/second each time dc current stops flowing to the power supply filter capacitors. There is no other way to clean up a ringing power supply except with vacuum tube rectifiers.

Power cords__Why is the last 6 feet of AC power conduit so important when it is fed by 30 to 50 feet of house wirig? Your system components gossip to each other, not only from noisy solid state power supplys, but also all the Digital Trash, not to mention the AC power company contamination. A good deal of this noise is common mode which many power cord Mfg'rs clean up with elegant toroide cores and substantial multiple braided powercord shielding.

A well designed power cord will provide a substantial improvment in your system. MIT Inc. has a very effective power-conditioner package on thier excellent power cord designed by Dick Marsh, which provides a shunt-clamping "five Ohm Resistor Function" in a continuous band from 20,000 Hz down to almost 60 Hz.

You should seek a dealer that will demonstrate to you the difference in junk cables & excellent cables in a well organized demo system. Also a good dealer will make availeable to you "no cost" loan demo cables to try at home. I have been there.

The history on Group delay__ Bell Labs installed the first Transatlantic Telegraph Cable many decades ago resulting in a fabulous surprise. They found that it took a significant amount of time to send a telegraphic "Dot" & "Dash" but the massive "group delay distortion" in this cable distorted the code-pulse signatures so severely that the relatively simple "Dash" spectrum arrived ahead of the messed-up "Dot" spectrum. It was so bad that it took 4 hours to send a simple message so they could hold the key doen for several minites for each dot & dash.

The fix was very simple__they needed distributed inductance on the full length of this transatlantic cable to slow down the higher frequency spectrum__They accomplished this by wrapping "Mu Metal" high-permubility wire around the insulated copper conductor.Transmission speed came up to 50 words per minite.

The required bandwidth in this telegraph system is not comparable to the 20,000 Hz audio sound spectrum For example, 300 to 3000 Hz is very adequate for Land Telephone Communications. If you look up on telephone company poles at one mile intervals with a big iron bucket , that bucket is full of 10 millihenry coils used in series with each subscribers land line to provide distrubted inductance.

This group delay thing was described by a Dr. Heavy Side around 1845 in terms of human speech.This scientist 's name was adopted for our modern "HF Radio transmission signal propogation" which follows the earth's curvature.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
cheers herki the cat

???
My apologies; this is way above my comprehension level. I just don't have the experience, talent, ears or intellect to keep up to your level.

[Eaulive]

???
My apologies; this is way above my comprehension level. I just don't have the experience, talent, ears or intellect to keep up to your level.

You don't need talent, intellect or knowledge to understand that you can't compare group delays on a 4000km cable across the Atlantic and group delay on a 4m cable across your living room, you just need common sense.
A seriously lacking trait of character in the audiophile community

[Ruediger]

The whole story of Group Delay even on a transatlantic cable is bull.

Rüdiger

[Eaulive]

The whole story of Group Delay even on a transatlantic cable is bull.

Rüdiger

I didn't look it up but I wouldn't doubt it.
Different delays happens on data cable when wide range of RF frequencies are involved because of the skin effect differs between frequencies.
Not a problem in the audio range.

[hjames]

Okay, returning to the scene of the crime, yesterday I cut the second Walmart 40' cord into a second pair of audio cables, cut off the green line, and tinned the tips, using 4 of the dual connectors to complete them for the right side biamp cables.
I used white and black as + and - and it all went great - seems better than those old dull zip-cord lines I was using before.

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=42820&stc=1&d=1258163589

Thanks again, Phil, for the heads up on these cables!


Why spend big money on cables when you can spend it on music instead?
check the last half dozen or so posts in this thread -
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=23092

Go to the 6 Moons site and look up the White Lightning Moonshine cable article - basically its a white Walmart 40' extension 3-wire cord with the ends cut off and dual banana connectors soldered on. I bought 2 cords, cut them in half and made 2 pairs of 20' cables for my biamp monitors.

BMWCCA recommended it and I'll vouch for the quality sound!

For non-Biamp use, its $8 for the cable and maybe $24 for 4 high end connectors - certainly worth trying!

Markertek order for 8 of each (each cable needs one dual at each end)

8 [NYS508-B] Neutrik NYS508-B Dual Banana Plug - Black @$1.70/ea = $13.60
8 [NYS508-R] Neutrik NYS508-R Dual Banana Plug - Red @$1.78/ea = $14.24

[toddalin]

I cut the second Walmart 40' cord into a second pair of audio cables, cut off the green line,...


Why cut off, rather than use the green line? You still have its mass/space in the bundle, but none of its benefits of reduced resistance.

[hjames]

Why cut off, rather than use the green line? You still have its mass/space in the bundle, but none of its benefits of reduced resistance.

Already had plenty of conductor in use with the 2 16 gauge copper lines.
Two merged lines didn't fit the banana connectors.
Its a 3 conductor line, but there are 2 lines required for a full circuit,
so why double 1/2 the pair if you can't double the second line at the same time?

So if you enlarge one leg without enlarging the other,
you won't get much of a change!

(Its AC, so DC lamps aren't a good comparison ..)
Oh, and 60cps AC voltage is not the same as 20-20khz audio, for what its worth.

[BMWCCA]

Two merged lines didn't fit the banana connectors.Yeah they will, it's just a but harder to get it all together but it will work. I did mine that way. What I know about electricity you can put under your thumbnail but I thought I remembered seeing something about the + side benefiting in some way from the extra lead. :dont-know

[Mr. Widget]

...but I thought I remembered seeing something about the + side benefiting in some way from the extra lead. :dont-know:no:

The operative word is circuit. :)


Widget

[toddalin]

If you double the number of wires, even on just one side of the circuit, you will still reduce the total resistance and therefore, in theory at least, gain benefit across the circuit.

I run hundreds of miniature light bulbs from a transformer on the railroad and what starts as ~22 volts dc in the garage winds up at ~10 volts at the bulbs out on the railroad. When I doubled even just one of the two wires, it increased the voltage at the bulbs by over 1.5 volts.

[Ruediger]

I didn't look it up but I wouldn't doubt it.
Different delays happens on data cable when wide range of RF frequencies are involved because of the skin effect differs between frequencies.
Not a problem in the audio range.

Electrical signals in vacuum travel with the speed of light (3 x 10**8 m/sec), on real cable they travel with a speed which is about 0.7 times the speed of light. That factor depends on the relative permittivity which indeed is frequency dependent.

On a telephone line and on a transatlantic cable other effects are of importance (characteristic impedance, impedance match and reflections in case of a mismatch). These effects are only present when the cable length is at least "similar" to the wavelength (a quarter wavelength gives a pretty resonator, for example) or greater.

The wavelength of a 20 kHz signal is:

approximate speed of electrical signals: 3 x 10**8 m x 0.7 = 2.1 x 10**8 m/sec
divided bx 2 x 10**4 /sec
which yields 10.5 x 10**3 m = 10.5 km

Compared to that length every cable in a living room which is smaller than a football field is a lumped element, like a soldering spot.

If audio signals on a cable would travel with a significantly different speed (if there was significant dispersion) then that would show up on an oscilloscope as waveform distortion.

Ruediger

[Ruediger]

One can do something good with a proper cable, make the cable part of a well-defined circuit, rather than hunting for almost zero-resistance inductors and cables.

A loudspeaker has an acoustic Q (Qa) and an electric Q (Qe). It has a DC resistance Re, and the amplifier has an output resistance Rg.

The amplifier's output resistance can be calculated from the damping factor: 8 Ohms / (damping factor) = Output resistance.

The total resistance of loudspeaker cable and of series inductors in the crossover adds to the amplifier's output resistance.

For Thiele design or any design using Thiele Small parameters one needs the total Q (Qt). This can be calculated as follows:

1/Qt = 1/Qa + (1/Qe)[Re/(Rg+Re)]

Use reasonable (affordable) cables and inductors, calculate the resulting Qt and design the box for this resulting Qt.

Ruediger

[BMWCCA]

If you double the number of wires, even on just one side of the circuit, you will still reduce the total resistance and therefore, in theory at least, gain benefit across the circuit.:dont-know I just built what others had proposed and (apparently) had success with. What electrical knowledge I have is from working on my own cars and bikes for years. Yes, those are primarily "circuits" for what difference that makes I am unsure. Quite common to see a huge ground wire from battery to chassis and varying sizes of "positive" wires used depending on load on that circuit. Presumably the size difference is to save cost and weight otherwise everything would be ten gauge, or better. Yeah, I know my speakers aren't headlights or starters and my amps aren't batteries, but I doubt there's any harm caused by it, I'm happy with the sound, and I feel better about not "wasting" all that Chinese copper that was most likely shipped half-way 'round the world, twice, before arriving at Wal*Mart. ;)

An added benefit is I can enjoy knowing the "group delay" discussion participants will get their panties all in a wad over it, and anything else I can do to offer fodder for other sanctimonious know-it-alls like Herki the Cat with their incontinent blogs most likely keeps them off the street and away from my children. :D

[toddalin]

So if you enlarge one leg without enlarging the other,
you won't get much of a change!

(Its AC, so DC lamps aren't a good comparison ..)


Not true, and I previously ran them on a/c with the same effect before adding the bridge rectifier and big-azzed capacitor to increase the voltage from ~16.5 vac to ~22 volts vdc and get some light out of the bulbs.

As for putting two wires into one side of the banana plug, simply strip one wire back a bit just before the plugs (both sides) and solder the third wire to it so you gain the benefit of the increased gauge without the problem of making it fit within the shell.

[Allanvh5150]

It is quite amusing that people are worried about connecting more copper to a crappy little point contact banana plug. Short of just poking the wires into the hole they are one of the worst connectors on the market.

[Mr. Widget]

Resistance in either conductor is in series with the other, so reducing the resistance in either conductor will only have a modest improvement in the entire circuit.

16 gauge copper wire has an approximate resistance of 0.00473 ohms per foot. For an 8' run of 16 gauge wire, you would see 0.0378 ohms for the positive side and an additional 0.0378 ohms for the negative side. The combined total is 0.0757 ohms. If you double up on either the positive or the negative side you will be now be adding 0.0378 ohms and 0.0189 which equals 0.0567. Is there an improvement? I suppose, but the fact is the resistance at the connections is likely greater than that due to the wires to begin with and lowering the wire resistance a whopping 0.019 ohms isn't going to make a difference.


Widget

[hjames]

Resistance in either conductor is in series with the other, so reducing the resistance in either conductor will only have a modest improvement in the entire circuit.


Widget

Thank you, sir!
Just didn't make sense that doubling one leg of a circuit without changing the other would have any real difference.

That said, it no doubt can't HURT anything,
so when I pull the lines next time I may redo all the connectors
and tie the green to one leg. But no need to rush to do it.

[toddalin]

Even though the difference in resistance is small, and one may not be able to hear an audible difference, doubling even one leg of the circuit provides a theoretical advantage, and isn't that what much of HiFi is all about?

Did JBL really need to make the new tweets go out to 50kHz even though most of us can't hear past 15kHz? Do fancy speaker wires and interconnects really do anything? Again, there are theoretical advantages and often, that is enough.

I just hate to leave "spare change" on the table when it is just there for the taking. (Personally, I wouldn't use any speaker wire less than 14 gauge for runs up to 25 feet and 12 gauge for my runs that are ~50 feet.)

[jcrobso]

Electrical signals in vacuum travel with the speed of light (3 x 10**8 m/sec), on real cable they travel with a speed which is about 0.7 times the speed of light. That factor depends on the relative permittivity which indeed is frequency dependent.

On a telephone line and on a transatlantic cable other effects are of importance (characteristic impedance, impedance match and reflections in case of a mismatch). These effects are only present when the cable length is at least "similar" to the wavelength (a quarter wavelength gives a pretty resonator, for example) or greater.

The wavelength of a 20 kHz signal is:

approximate speed of electrical signals: 3 x 10**8 m x 0.7 = 2.1 x 10**8 m/sec
divided bx 2 x 10**4 /sec
which yields 10.5 x 10**3 m = 10.5 km

Compared to that length every cable in a living room which is smaller than a football field is a lumped element, like a soldering spot.

If audio signals on a cable would travel with a significantly different speed (if there was significant dispersion) then that would show up on an oscilloscope as waveform distortion.

Ruediger

Because the length of the cables are so short compared to the wavelength,
But makes of the BIG $$$$ cable say other wise>:blink:

[hjames]

Even though the difference in resistance is small, and one may not be able to hear an audible difference, doubling even one leg of the circuit provides a theoretical advantage, and isn't that what much of HiFi is all about?


No, its not. Making an AUDIBLE improvement is what HiFi is all about -
imagining an improvement is just so much snake oil, and that was the OTHER point of this thread, the one everybody else was posting about.
That's not HiFi - that's a waste of good money.


There are still TWO legs of a circuit, the leg going to a speaker, and the return leg.
Doubling one does not add anything to the other leg to allow significantly greater current flow.
You have to increase BOTH LEGS to significantly increase capacity.

That said, it no doubt can't HURT anything,
so when I pull the lines next time I may redo all the connectors
and tie the green to one leg. But no need to rush to do it.

[toddalin]

No, its not. Making an AUDIBLE improvement is what HiFi is all about imagining an improvement is just so much snake oil, and that was the OTHER point of this thread, the one everybody else was posting about.

That's not HiFi - that's a waste of good money.

There are still TWO legs of a circuit, the leg going to a speaker, and the return leg.
Doubling one does not add anything to the other leg to allow significantly greater current flow.
You have to increase BOTH LEGS to significantly increase capacity.


One may not hear a "theoretical advantage" but another "one" may, so to them it is not so much "snake oil."

If one leaves the "change lying on the table that's there for the taking anyway," aren't they the one wasting money?

As for increasing both to realize a "significant" gain, I guess that depends on one's definition of significance. If one views it as a 33.3% reduction in wire resistance (which is the case), that could be considered as significant.

If your definition requires the sound level to increase by 3 dBA, a known audible difference in an exterior environment that we use in the preparation of Environmental Impact Reports, there are probably no wires on the market would fit your bill and you could increase the length and decrease the diameter of your existing wires substantially with "no significant difference."

'nough said.

[hjames]

You know, if its an audible change, its not "theoretical", is it?
But you just keep beating that dead horsie, mister ...
:applaud:

You obviously know you are right and its pointless to get into that pile on!
;)
Have a nice day.

[JBL 4645]

You know, if its an audible change, its not "theoretical", is it?
But you just keep beating that dead horsie, mister ...
:applaud:

You obviously know you are right and its pointless to get into that pile on!
;)
Have a nice day.

Heather
I found a smiley for you.http://www.thisboardrocks.com/forum/images/smilies/dead-horse-fast2.gif :D
:xmas::tree:

[sonofagun]

"There are still TWO legs of a circuit, the leg going to a speaker, and the return leg."


Maybe this is irrelevant but usually these two legs run in close proximity to each other.

Shouldn't they be physically separated to prevent mutual interference?

[JBL 4645]

250 bucks for 7' of cable? :blink:

I'm in the wrong business :banghead:
:wtf:

It’s not Jewellery you know. Its only cable!
:xmas::tree:

[BMWCCA]

Maybe this is irrelevant but usually these two legs run in close proximity to each other.

Shouldn't they be physically separated to prevent mutual interference?I thought that's what Widget meant by "circuit", so I ran the (+) wire around half the perimeter of the room to the speaker and the (-) wire around the other way and the other half of the perimeter, to complete the circuit. That let me use lots more cable, use the doubled-up leads on the longer run, and gave me two room entries with wiring to trip over. It was a challenge since I bi-amp them so I had to put one run on the ceiling, one on the floor, and the other two on the walls. Everyone is happy and I'm sure it must sound better that way! I'm thinking of re-positioning the input terminals putting some on top of the cabinet and others on the bottom. I'm also thinking of remote-mounting the batteries in all my MagLites.


Not! ;)

[SEAWOLF97]

Maybe this is irrelevant but usually these two legs run in close proximity to each other.

Shouldn't they be physically separated to prevent mutual interference?


answered in post 93




• For speaker, AC and wall wart power cables always split two-conductor wires and separate by at least 6". Don't forget to keep all wires off artificial fiber rugs and de-static them regularly.

[Mr. Widget]

answered in post 93I assumed and hoped that post #93 was posted entirely for comedic purposes.


Widget

[BMWCCA]

I assumed and hoped that post #93 was posted entirely for comedic purposes.I may be naive but I thought Mapleshade was serious about their products, not that I intended to try any. But then I saw their speaker bi-wire jumper strips and now I'm not sure they're not being tongue-and-cheek about everything:

Notice the directionality of the strips ($25/set), labeled "W" for woofer and "T" for tweeters!

http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/audioproducts/images/biwirejumpers_lg.jpg

[Mr. Widget]

I may be naive but I thought Mapleshade was serious about their products...I'm certain Mapleshade is serious, but I assumed our forum member was not.

The first point on their list:

"• Almost everybody sits way too far from their speakers, that is, 8' to 10' or more. Try a low chair (or floor pillow) 5' away. You'll hear a phenomenal increase in clarity, bass impact and soundstage—roughly like spending 100% more on your speakers."

Different speakers sound better from different heights and there is no mention of speaker spacing width... how can they arbitrarily suggest you should sit on the floor five feet from the speakers? What if your speakers are 12' apart and they are tall floor standers with the tweeter 40 or more inches off the floor?

Point number two is essentially the same thing:

"• Nearly everybody sits too high. The "tweeters at ear level"rule sounds logical but fails when tested. For a test, sit on one or two phone books: you'll hear an amazing new warmth and fullness in baritone voice, trombones, tenor sax, plucked bass—and a far more natural treble balance."

This is likely great advice for some speakers... but certainly not for all speakers.

Point number three is the best yet:

"• For much improved bass and huge soundstage, put your listening chair or sofa right against the wall behind you. Move your speakers in to 5' in front of you and 7' or more apart. No room treatments will yield this much bass improvement."

Anyone knowledgeable in room acoustics knows that placing the listening chair up against the wall of a room places it in a node that will enhance a narrow band of frequencies... the frequencies will be determined by the room size and shape. In many cases this will lead to a one note bass type of sound... it is sometimes necessary, but always something to be avoided for accurate sound reproduction.

I don't need to continue...


Widget

[hjames]

No no no - when you cut the Wallmart cord in half,
you can tie all 3 connectors together for triple the gain on the + lead.
Then use the other half of the cord for triple the gain on the - lead.
Buy a couple more of those 40 ' cords to make up the other lines you need for the biamp system ...
$8 a wire is cheap!
That way No Copper is left behind!


I thought that's what Widget meant by "circuit", so I ran the (+) wire around half the perimeter of the room to the speaker and the (-) wire around the other way and the other half of the perimeter, to complete the circuit. That let me use lots more cable, use the doubled-up leads on the longer run, and gave me two room entries with wiring to trip over. It was a challenge since I bi-amp them so I had to put one run on the ceiling, one on the floor, and the other two on the walls. Everyone is happy and I'm sure it must sound better that way! I'm thinking of re-positioning the input terminals putting some on top of the cabinet and others on the bottom. I'm also thinking of remote-mounting the batteries in all my MagLites.


Not! ;)

[Eaulive]

answered in post 93


• For speaker, AC and wall wart power cables always split two-conductor wires and separate by at least 6". Don't forget to keep all wires off artificial fiber rugs and de-static them regularly.

Terrible idea! AC cables away from each other generate much more electro-magnetic energy than when they're close coupled.
Same for speaker wires, if you split them they will be able to pick up the 60Hz hum that comes from your _now radiating_ AC wires :D

Read about balanced lines, CMRR, twisted pairs, etc ;)
This article is a recipe for disaster :banghead:

[Eaulive]

I assumed and hoped that post #93 was posted entirely for comedic purposes.


Widget

Seems not :o:

[SEAWOLF97]

I assumed and hoped that post #93 was posted entirely for comedic purposes.


Widget

didja now ?

like all audio sites.....(including this one) there is a mix of the serious, stupid and a lot in between....its up to the reader to pick out what seems reasonable and based in reality.

disclaimer: I have never purchased anything from MapleShade , tho did get the idea for the vinyl steamer from them.

[midlife]

If the amp and speaker connectors accept bare wire is there any advantage to banana plugs other than convinience?

[Allanvh5150]

If the amp and speaker connectors accept bare wire is there any advantage to banana plugs other than convinience?

I think so. There are also "pins" available that fit the holes in some binding posts or push terminals quite firmly. These make for a better connection than just the bare cable. You could also use speakon connectors. They are probably the best "off the shelf" solution for audio that has hit the market in recent years. RCA's and bananas have been around about as long as electricity and they have not really been improved.

Allan.

[jcrobso]

I did a lot of :rotfl::rotfl:
As I have said before the is a lot of FUD going around.

[timc]

I find this Measureable/theoretical VS. audible differences facinating.

How about the following thought experiment.

Separate the + and - leads give a small measureable difference, but not audible.

Making the wire double or choose a thicker one to reduce resistance and inductance. Small measured difference but not audible.

Then throw some more of theese minute differences in the mix.

How much is needed before the sum of all this is audible?

I'm not really arguing for cable differneces here. But one would think that lots of small differences could be summed up to a nice audible difference. The differences could be due to lots off different things.

Choosing inductors/capacitors with just that little bit lower ESR. Use CC networks instead of exotic single caps,, and so on.


-Tim

[BMWCCA]

You could also use speakon connectors. They are probably the best "off the shelf" solution for audio that has hit the market in recent years. RCA's and bananas have been around about as long as electricity and they have not really been improved.The Speakon/Neutrik NL8s I removed from my CC crossovers to the 4345s had eight female spade connectors on each receptacle on the cabinet. I didn't check how the connections were made in the male end but simply putting the crossovers inside the cabinets and going with bi-amp cables with Pomona plugs (dual bananas) to the cabinet probably saved me half the push-on, crimped, or grub-screw connections over the whole system. I like the NL8 but I doubt if leaves and roll pins do any better a job than spring-loaded bananas which probably offer even more contact area.

[toddalin]

I find this Measureable/theoretical VS. audible differences facinating.

How about the following thought experiment.

Separate the + and - leads give a small measureable difference, but not audible.

Making the wire double or choose a thicker one to reduce resistance and inductance. Small measured difference but not audible.

Then throw some more of theese minute differences in the mix.

How much is needed before the sum of all this is audible?

I'm not really arguing for cable differneces here. But one would think that lots of small differences could be summed up to a nice audible difference. The differences could be due to lots off different things.

Choosing inductors/capacitors with just that little bit lower ESR. Use CC networks instead of exotic single caps,, and so on.


-Tim

Very similar to the debate we get into on the Corvette Forum, "How much of a horsepower gain can you feel vs what the measured increase actually was."

Lots of guys do one or two small things that are typically associated with a few hp gain (e.g., carb spacer). Because there is no seat of the pants difference in the feel (you really won't feel a 6 hp increase if your engine is making 390 hp even though the dyno shows the increase and the 1/4 times may show a decrease), they assume the mod is worthless and may dissuade other from doing the same.

One the other hand, if you do enough small mods, you will make both a measureable difference on the dyno and in the seat of your pants.

[toddalin]

If the amp and speaker connectors accept bare wire is there any advantage to banana plugs other than convinience?

I would think not and infact, I would think the bare wire to be the better option. The banana plugs make a "surface contact" in a ring pattern at their fat point, and probably a few other points along the plug. This surface contact is obviously a possible point of corrosion over time, especially if dissimilar metals are used that set up a galvanic reaction.

If the wires are smashed down in a gold-plated, screw-type speaker connector (and not the cheap spring-terminals), I would think the points of contact would be far greater than the "ring contact" of the banana plug. Also, with this screw-type of connection being "tighter" than a banana plug, I would think there is less chance of corrosion to set in.

Besides, unless the wire is soldered into the banana plug (I do this with silver solder), you actually end up with two connections to fail; one from the wire to the plug, and another from the plug to the speaker/amp.

[Allanvh5150]

[quote=BMWCCA;274087I like the NL8 but I doubt if leaves and roll pins do any better a job than spring-loaded bananas which probably offer even more contact area.[/quote]

With a banana plug having a rating of between 5 and 10 amps and a Speakon having a rating of somewhere around 50, I will let you decide.

Allan.

[BMWCCA]

With a banana plug having a rating of between 5 and 10 amps and a Speakon having a rating of somewhere around 50, I will let you decide.Oh I don't doubt the efficiency and robust build quality of the Speakons, etc, but in the end it really all boils down to the efficacy of the lowly Faston connectors (spades) used on the drivers, most networks, and the NL8s. I really doubt the Neutrik bananas are a weak point in most systems. Short of soldering everything, I'm good with them. :)

We do use Speakons exclusively in the high-power SR systems I help with. Foolproof and positive. The pride of Lichtenstein.

[Eaulive]

With a banana plug having a rating of between 5 and 10 amps and a Speakon having a rating of somewhere around 50, I will let you decide.

Allan.

NL4FC 30A RMS
NL4FX 40A RMS
NLT4FX 40A RMS, 50A RMS @ 50% duty cycle.

I use NL4FX for all my installs and my mobile kits. They're cheap and tough.

[midlife]

Can anyone post a pic of speakons ?

[BMWCCA]

Can anyone post a pic of speakons ?

Neutrik NL4

http://www.neutrik.com/client/neutrik/media/products/view/210_308361.jpg http://www.neutrik.com/client/neutrik/media/products/view/210_91207448.jpg

[hjames]

Not having hands-on familiarity with that device,
is it just a 2 conductor connector?
('cause I thought the connectors on your biamp 4345s had more contacts ...8?)


Neutrik NL4

http://www.neutrik.com/client/neutrik/media/products/view/210_308361.jpg http://www.neutrik.com/client/neutrik/media/products/view/210_91207448.jpg

[BMWCCA]

Those are four-conductor (NL4). Mine used eight-conductor NL8s:

http://www.neutrikconnectors.com/Images/Neutrik/oldNeutrik/Medium/NL8FCm.jpg http://www.neutrikconnectors.com/images/Neutrik/oldNeutrik/Medium/NL8MD-V-BAG_Medium.jpg
Here's a typical inside shot from Google images:

http://www.buyspeakercable.com/SPEAKON_OPEN_BIG.gif
Some use grub screws, others use faston. Either way it requires modification of your speaker input/network to accommodate the socket.

This is what my 4345s looked like when I got them:

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa178/newzenith_photos/JBL%204345/IMGP7572.jpg

[Eaulive]

Not having hands-on familiarity with that device,
is it just a 2 conductor connector?
('cause I thought the connectors on your biamp 4345s had more contacts ...8?)

2, 4 or 8 , the 8 is bigger but the 2 and 4 have the same housing although they do not mate.
http://www.neutrik.com/fl/en/audio/204_184671/speakON_Cable_Connectors_productlist.aspx

[Eaulive]

Here's a typical inside shot from Google images:

http://www.buyspeakercable.com/SPEAKON_OPEN_BIG.gif







This picture is from a chinese knock off, not a neutrik! I've seen those, they are bad, bad, bad...

[Eaulive]

Some use grub screws, others use faston. Either way it requires modification of your speaker input/network to accommodate the socket.


Neutrik makes a good connector for the speaker cabinet with a big round flange.

http://www.neutrik.com/fl/en/audio/210_240211/NL4MPR_detail.aspx
http://www.neutrik.com/client/neutrik/media/products/view/210_240211.jpg

[jcrobso]

The Speakon connector has been around for about 20 years now, east to wire up, easy to connect, great connector.

[SEAWOLF97]

screw your speakers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xpa_4Lao2z0&feature=related

[Eaulive]

screw your speakers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xpa_4Lao2z0&feature=related

Man, this guy is preaching about sound quality and he could not even set the microphone gain straight. His recording sucks, it's overloaded and the AGC pumps.

As for his tweak, I will quote 4313B:
woohoo... whatthefuckever... :rolleyes:

I didn't get past the first two minutes.

[Allanvh5150]

I thought he was going to poke his finger through the cone to improve the sound. I think it would be best if he just stuck to smoking weed......

[jcrobso]

screw your speakers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xpa_4Lao2z0&feature=related

He says that steel has resonance and brass does not. I guess no one told the brass bells that they are not suppose to work.:blink:

[jcrobso]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_q3Q3BwneKA&feature=related

Magnets in your cables?:banghead:

Lets see now, as the current flows back and forth in the wire and the magnetic filed it produces is now going to interact with filed of the magnet buried in the cable.:blink: This is some how going to make the signal travel faster than it would with out the magnet?:bs:

[MikeBrewster77]

"Fancy!" :barf:

If I was able to sit through the entire thing, I would have kept going with the running count I was keeping of how many times he said "uh" or "um"

[SEAWOLF97]

I may be naive but I thought Mapleshade was serious about their products, not that I intended to try any. But then I saw their speaker bi-wire jumper strips and now I'm not sure they're not being tongue-and-cheek about everything:

Hey ..they are the real deal, and really smart

from the new catalog..p69: Mapleshades roots: about the owner/founder..

"In 1966 I was recruited to work at the pentagon for Macnamaras "whiz kids" . There, 2 brilliant fighter pilots and I started the F-16."

Audio Tweeks are nothing next to starting a SOTA fighter plane..:o:

[BMWCCA]

Audio Tweeks are nothing next to starting a SOTA fighter plane..:o:I hope they used something better than these in their SOTA fighters!

http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/audioproducts/images/biwirejumpers_lg.jpg

I've been inside the "Concordski" Tupolev 144. They would have considered these strips high-tech! ;)

[Mr. Widget]

Hey ..they are the real deal, and really smart

from the new catalog..p69: Mapleshades roots: about the owner/founder.. For grins I opened the previously sealed Mapleshade catalog that had been sitting unopened in the recycling pile.

I popped the shipping seals and it opened to page 25.

"Hook up these $85 wires and you'll think you just spent $500 to $1000 more on your speakers."

OK, so if I use those wires on my $250,000 Magico Ultimates, will I notice less of an improvement than if I use them on my $25 Realistic Minimus .5 speakers? I mean proportionally... :D

What the hell does a blanket statement like that mean anyway. These guys just can't be serious... or they certainly are not very smart.


Widget

[hjames]

For grins I opened the previously sealed Mapleshade catalog that had been sitting unopened in the recycling pile.

I popped the shipping seals and it opened to page 25.

What the hell does a blanket statement like that mean anyway. These guys just can't be serious... or they certainly are not very smart.
Widget

No no, they are VERY smart if they extract $85 and more for the stuff they sell, its the BUYERS that aren't so smart ... PT Barnum, y'know ...

Building their retirement fund, a buck at a time ...:applaud:

[jcrobso]

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=274997#post274997

This thread was started after this member read this one, very interest indeed.

[midlife]

My speaker wire has 0.20 dcr per speaker leg run. How am I doing?

[Eaulive]

My speaker wire has 0.20 dcr per speaker leg run. How am I doing?

A little high. "per leg" I assume you mean "per conductor"?
If it's the case your wires have a resistance of 0.4Ω, against a nominal 8Ω for your speaker this means that 5% of your amplifier power is dissipated in heat in the cable.

I'm sure it's quite OK though, I wouldn't worry too much about it ;)

Remember that most of the DVMs are not very good to measure very low resistances, their own internal resistance and the cheap cables and sometimes loose connexions have you measure around 0.2Ω when leads are shorted. You should compare your reading with the leads well shorted and then substract the difference.

The other way is to measure the voltage drop of the wire and the current flowing through it with a good ammeter. Then ask Georg for the result :D

[jcrobso]

My speaker wire has 0.20 dcr per speaker leg run. How am I doing?

If your speakers are 8 ohms then your fine, if they are 4 ohms, then not quite so good.

[1audiohack]

(http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=274997#post274997)
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=274997#post274997
This thread was started after this member read this one, very interest indeed.
(http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=274997#post274997)

You know, you started it when you wrote,



The shape of the Twinkies and the cream filling create a capacitive/inductance canceling field and the wire will become a superconductor at room temperatures. :bs:
Hey, I can do junk science as well as anyone!:blink:
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif


That got me thinking and I just couldn't stop my self.:D It's all your fault jcrobso!

[jcrobso]

You know, you started it when you wrote,



That got me thinking and I just couldn't stop my self.:D It's all your fault jcrobso!

Can I come out now????;)

[Mikhail]

Looking speaker cable for 4343 biamping, long stretches of 5 m. While stopped at here is this cable: Belden 8477 12AWG, www.belden.com/techdatas/metric/8477.pdf (http://www.belden.com/techdatas/metric/8477.pdf)
like the fact that the tinned copper will not oxidize. What do you think? Good choice?

[BMWCCA]

Looking speaker cable for 4343 biamping, long stretches of 5 m. While stopped at here is this cable: Belden 8477 12AWG, www.belden.com/techdatas/metric/8477.pdf (http://www.belden.com/techdatas/metric/8477.pdf)
like the fact that the tinned copper will not oxidize. What do you think? Good choice?
Would probably be wonderful.

I use 6Moons White Lightning Moonshine (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/whitelightning/moonshine.html). You can certainly do those in 5-meter runs. Mine are 10-feet (about 3-meters). I terminated mine with Neutrik dual-bananas.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?23092-What-kind-of-Cables-are-you-using-for-your-4345s-or-any-type-of-Horn-speakers&p=269953&viewfull=1#post269953

[Mikhail]

Would probably be wonderful.

I use 6Moons White Lightning Moonshine (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/whitelightning/moonshine.html). You can certainly do those in 5-meter runs. Mine are 10-feet (about 3-meters). I terminated mine with Neutrik dual-bananas.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?23092-What-kind-of-Cables-are-you-using-for-your-4345s-or-any-type-of-Horn-speakers&p=269953&viewfull=1#post269953

Thank you for your advice. I think that this banana should be very convenient!
But I think the banana to each amplifier is not suitable by the fact that the distance between the terminals is different, you need to measure before ...

[BMWCCA]

Thank you for your advice. I think that this banana should be very convenient!
But I think the banana to each amplifier is not suitable by the fact that the distance between the terminals is different, you need to measure before ...
It's pretty much the standard spacing. Works for all my amps, including the Crowns.

[martin2395]

Sometimes they differ, especially boutique gear that uses single Cardas/WBT style terminals ;)

I tend to like Supra cables a lot - very nice, balanced sound.

[BMWCCA]

Sometimes they differ, especially boutique gear that uses single Cardas/WBT style terminals ;)
I suppose that makes them extra special. I have Crown, Carver, Soundcraftsmen, and Adcom amps in the house and the terminal spacing is the same for all of them. The bi-amp terminal cups I bought for the 4345s have the same spacing, too, as do the L1, L3, L5, L7, 4412A, L80T, etc. :dont-know:

[Mr. Widget]

I suppose that makes them extra special. I have Crown, Carver, Soundcraftsmen, and Adcom amps in the house and the terminal spacing is the same for all of them. The bi-amp terminal cups I bought for the 4345s have the same spacing, too, as do the L1, L3, L5, L7, 4412A, L80T, etc. :dont-know:The standard dual banana spacing is a U.S. thing... unfortunately it is only a couple of mm different than the most common European AC mains plugs and has been banned for use in Europe due to safety concerns.

I've been using Pamona dual bananas since the mid '70s. They are very convenient when your speakers and amps have compatible banana plug spacing.


Widget

[Mikhail]

While I am planning to clamp the wire just to the terminal. A bass directly to the speakers. In this regard, I want to try tinned copper.

[loach71]

The standard dual banana spacing is a U.S. thing... unfortunately it is only a couple of mm different than the most common European AC mains plugs and has been banned for use in Europe due to safety concerns.

I've been using Pamona dual bananas since the mid '70s. They are very convenient when your speakers and amps have compatible banana plug spacing.


Widget

Like you Widget, I am a long-term (and very satisfied) user of Pomona ....

[BMWCCA]

Are we speaking of Pomona as a brand or a type? I know the brand well but I grew up calling a dual-banana a Pomona Plug as a connector type.

What I'm using could be called Neutrik Pomona Plugs or Neutrik dual-banana plugs. A very small semantic issue with trade-mark implications, like grabbing a "Kleenex" or making a "Xerox". Pomona calls theirs dual-bananas.

65824

[RLock]

It seems to me the reputable speaker companies would have jumped on the boutique speaker cable bandwagon if there were any credence to this debate at all. I am sure they explored and tested the option since there is a big $$$ potential. Perhaps, they found it unethical to put ones name on a product that only produces a placebo effect and not really enhance ones listening experience. I agree Pomona connectors with a solid clean connection and adequate gauge wire cut at equal lengths not to exceed the application and run to avoid power cable induction is all one needs. JBL simply recommends "line cord" and specifies the recommended gauges for the needed cable length on many of its products. I never really understood the boutique speaker cable market, but I sure wish I were in on it.;)

[Mr. Widget]

It seems to me the reputable speaker companies would have jumped on the boutique speaker cable bandwagon if there were any credence to this debate at all. I am sure they explored and tested the option since there is a big $$$ potential. Perhaps, they found it unethical to put ones name on a product that only produces a placebo effect and not really enhance ones listening experience. I agree Pomona connectors with a solid clean connection and adequate gauge wire cut at equal lengths not to exceed the application and run to avoid power cable induction is all one needs. JBL simply recommends "line cord" and specifies the recommended gauges for the needed cable length on many of its products. I never really understood the boutique speaker cable market, but I sure wish I were in on it.;)All you need to "get in on it" is a good story, some capital to get a factory in China to produce your "RLock Sound Power Superior Audio Cable", and flexible ethics. ;)


Widget

[RLock]

Yes, with patented "Real Time Electron Tunneling Technology" to reduce electron drift inside the cables, therefore the same exact electrons from your amp will power the drivers without delay (Far superior to standard cables). Am I getting too far out there? I think there are people out there would buy my cables and not feel ripped off and even brag how great they are. Any investors?

[grumpy]

If you go with Wormhole Antimatter Neutrino Kables with Quantum Entanglement Regime operation (WANKQER), I'm in for a buck.

[grumpy]

BTW, I'm a fan of using four conductor speaker cables with adequate gauge wire,
but that's partly because it allows some flexibility in wiring. Beyond that (and
secure/appropriate terminations), my personal interest is usually elsewhere.

[Mr. Widget]

Any investors?Draw up some confusing illustrations and start a Kickstarter Campaign.


Widget

[RLock]

The longer the acronym the more we can charge...Awesome! http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/icons/icon3.png Buck's Super Stereo World can carry the entire line.

[David Ketley]

No one would say that it wouldn’t be great to improve already owned speaker cables performance, if that could be easy and possible to achieve at the price around 120 pounds; – D. So , now thanks to ALBEDO- SILVER (http://www.albedo-silver.com/akcesoria_en.htm), well renowned Polish silver cables manufacturer – the one of the best cables money can buy, that wish became possible. Their latest product – Cables stands called Butterfly designed to eliminate vibration and prevent the electrostatic electric charge, made it happened.http://gpoint-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/butterfly2_d.pnghttp://gpoint-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/butterfly1_d.png

[Wagner]

Mogami in bulk:
http://www.mogamicable.com/pdf/Mogami_Tech_cat2014.pdf

Mogami cable is difficult to beat

Hardware from Redco Audio (they're a Mogami dealer as well) Seem to have the best selection in bulk out of all the "dealers" I've dealt with

The REAN/Neutrik connectors are the best deal for the money and are well made

I started using Mogami for low capacitance turntable jobs, the quality is superb

More studios probably use Mogami and Belden than any other manufacturers; only issue I have ever had with Belden is finding a vendor that had the model cable I wanted IN STOCK, that, or having to buy 10x what I wanted

Redco has always had the goods in Mogami and will sell you any length you want; they also carry Canare