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Punch
12-12-2009, 08:11 AM
Since my WTB ad for my 250Ti's had almost 5,000 hits, I thought that I could continue my questions here along with a picture, history, and set-up thread.

The 250Ti's are getting delivered this morning. I just checked out this thread during a search, and I thought to build upon it:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...ight=250ti+bus (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=19243&highlight=250ti+bus)

I am trying to think of what else I can do to them while the drivers are out and getting refoamed. Even though I have been into hi-fi for almost 30 of my 39 years, I am a newbie at certain levels.

Do I need to do any useful mods while they are apart? Anything with the interconnects? The bus bars? The crossovers? Any upgrading at all?

Thanks....I will post pictures of the drop off and set-up later.

Robh3606
12-12-2009, 08:19 AM
The most obvious answer is to build a pair of Charge Coupled crossovers for them.

Rob:)

mike
12-12-2009, 11:54 AM
The biggest obstacles in enjoying your 250Ti's will be getting used to their lack of coloration, placing them in the right room, and finding the right amp and preamp for them; not that any one of these things is that hard.
I wouldn't worry about modifying them.

Mike

Punch
12-12-2009, 12:39 PM
Even though the one needs new surrounds, I A/B'd them with the 166s, and you all said it perfectly when you described them as "laid back". It really is the type of speaker that you can listen to for hours. The 166 was definitely more "in your face" and "forward" as you all have also described.

I used my reference album for the first listening: Fagen's "The Nightfly". I have using that album as my go-to album for over 25 years...."Gaucho" or "Aja" are a close second.

BMWCCA
12-12-2009, 01:01 PM
I used my reference album for the first listening: Fagen's "The Nightfly".
Digital re-mastered into vinyl? Or full DDD CD?

Just curious. It was the first CD I ever bought, the day it came out, even before I had a player to play it on. :applaud:

Punch
12-12-2009, 01:21 PM
Digital re-mastered into vinyl? Or full DDD CD?

Just curious. It was the first CD I ever bought, the day it came out, even before I had a player to play it on. :applaud:

PM sent

So, I will wait before any mods.

Punch
12-12-2009, 07:24 PM
Wow, it was hard to get the drivers and others out. I used a tongue depressor as a shim and gently tapped it in...

Punch
12-12-2009, 09:47 PM
So far:

-took out all the speakers except the tweeter
-the 104H....easy
-108H
......right side, easy, small areas of stock on gasket
......left, nearly impossible to get off. The 108 and the gasket basically adhered to the veneer. I left a couple of marks :( but they are under the lip of the 108 (I know they are there), and then I discovered using the tongue depressor as a shim, and it worked well.
-LE14H....tougher than the other...not bad
-0000 steel wool to the veneer, wiped off with old t-shirt
-Howard's Feed N' Wax (citrus + Beeswax) to a small test area. It seems to really deepen and enrich the finish. It does not darken it, but when you lose that dry look, it looks a little darker and wetter.

Will post pics tomorrow...

BMWCCA
12-12-2009, 10:24 PM
Yeah, I know they're only L250s with the LE14Hs re-surrounded on the front of the cone, with a repaired cut in a mid-range, but they sold for only $712, met reserve, and were only five-hours away! For some reason I couldn't get excited enough to follow them to the end: http://ebayitem.com/300374813574

jbl_daddy
12-13-2009, 05:41 AM
My little brother called me from DC last night with a problem, one of the 14' drivers on his 250LE's has developed a buzz at low volumes. Does this mean he has damaged the coil and will need a total rebuild, and if so where in the local area would be recomended.
Mark in ATL

Punch
12-13-2009, 05:54 AM
Yeah, I know they're only L250s with the LE14Hs re-surrounded on the front of the cone, with a repaired cut in a mid-range, but they sold for only $712, met reserve, and were only five-hours away! For some reason I couldn't get excited enough to follow them to the end: http://ebayitem.com/300374813574

That is the definition of will power....wow....the parts are worth more than that alone.

Punch
12-13-2009, 06:01 AM
Here is the journey....my ebay seller took the hour drive and dropped them off. He bought them new in Okinawa in 1990 when he was in the Air Force.

We carried them in at 630am. One speaker made a noise when we tipped it on it's side...he said, "Must be a Matchbox car that my kid dropped into the port". It was on the speaker that needed a new 104h dust cap and an LE14H-1 in need of a dust cap and surround.

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd37/nguisto22/IMG_3705.jpg

Here is the owner saying his goodbyes....I felt bad for him. He did not want to sell them, but he said that he had to:

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd37/nguisto22/IMG_3706.jpg

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd37/nguisto22/IMG_3707.jpg

Temporary set-up:

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd37/nguisto22/NPG_2245.jpg

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd37/nguisto22/NPG_2255.jpg

THE 250Ti JACKPOT!!!!!!!!!

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd37/nguisto22/NPG_2254.jpg

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd37/nguisto22/NPG_2253.jpg

rdgrimes
12-13-2009, 06:04 AM
My little brother called me from DC last night with a problem, one of the 14' drivers on his 250LE's has developed a buzz at low volumes. Does this mean he has damaged the coil and will need a total rebuild, and if so where in the local area would be recomended.
Mark in ATL
Have him run some sweep tones to isolate the noise. I had a vibration coming from one L250 crossover that was very difficult to isolate. There's a lot of wires that can rub and vibrate, although less so on the LE. But I'll wager he has a vibration, not a VC rub.

hjames
12-13-2009, 06:06 AM
Hey, congratulations -
I'm sure the speakers will be happier without all those metal cars and trucks inside, too!

Punch
12-13-2009, 07:10 AM
Does anyone have a link to new gaskets between the drivers and the cabinet? The 108H gasket, as I said, was the worst...it just fused to the wood, and I gently lifted it the best I could with a razor and then polished it with 0000 wool to just to smooth it out.

Or, maybe I can ask my tech who is doing the repairs on the LE-14's.

BMWCCA
12-13-2009, 07:25 AM
Hey, congratulations -
I'm sure the speakers will be happier without all those metal cars and trucks inside, too!What a find! Now we know how the other damaged occurred!

Kids! Glad mine managed not to ever damage anything of value. Of course I had three girls. We used to enjoy crushing Matchbox Mercedes with a hammer around my house. My kids still have their Mini and Isetta models though. Thank doG for grille cloth!

I know just how the seller feels. These are tougher times than many imagine. One month with no paycheck can be absolutely devastating for people like even your neighbors you'd never imagine live such a precarious existence. Many out there are weighing whether to pay their mortgage payment, or their health-care premium, or to buy food, or heating oil. Some are luckier than most and some caused their own problems, but even those who lived lives of frugality are being hit hard these days.

Obviously this guy served his country if he was in Okinawa, and he apparently has a young family. Even though he now has your cash-in-hand, I'm betting it's already spent to pay existing debts. And I feel bad for him. Maybe I'm wrong but anyone with the presence of mind to purchase 250Tis new two decades ago must be a kindred spirit, of sorts. Do you know if he's now without music in his home, or do we assume from the dilapidated condition of his JBLs that he's moved on to a 50" flat-screen and a Bose HT system? If the former, I'd like to think about contributing some of my surplus speakers so he can at least listen to music in his house, at this time of year, for his kids' sake, if not his whole family. Do we know any more about his situation? Or am I projecting too much here? :banghead:

BMWCCA
12-13-2009, 07:28 AM
Does anyone have a link to new gaskets between the drivers and the cabinet? You can try these part numbers by calling JBL parts, or through your local JBL service station: http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/250ti%20ts.pdf

Part #52671 is shown on the most current price list as: 52671 GASKET, REAR, 116A $0.72

Punch
12-13-2009, 08:02 AM
You are not projecting at all...those are all valid points with me. Even though I am only 39, I have had a Vietnam POW-MIA bracelet on my left wrist since I was 18.

He has no music in the house now as far as I know. He said he hopes to get some speakers for his Denon pre-amp and amp in the near future. I told him to look at 240Ti's or he can get a nice set of NS-1000's for a decent price.

He bought the 250's for $3k back in 1990 and he only made $9,000 for the whole year as an E3. He said that he just had to have them when he just looked at them, and then when he heard them, they blew him away. He said that they put them on lay-away for him, and he just kept chipping away until he paid them off.

"Maybe I'm wrong but anyone with the presence of mind to purchase 250Tis new two decades ago must be a kindred spirit, of sorts." Exactly...when I was talking with him on the driveway, I told him that he was my hero. I could not believe he had the presence of mind as well.

I would give him my 4301's, but I am sending those to my buddy...horrible marriage since 1986...finally divorced her, and she took advantage of his good nature. He got his own place and was let go by his company a week later. They took his company car, his laptop, and his phone. I bought the 4301's from him in 1983 for $95. His dad was a JBL rep and they had 6 pair...these were his personal pair. He went from being an audiophile to his wife taking everything he loved. I just had them redone, and I am going to send them to him....they are still his in my mind.

Punch
12-13-2009, 08:08 AM
You can try these part numbers by calling JBL parts, or through your local JBL service station: http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/250ti%20ts.pdf

Part #52671 is shown on the most current price list as: 52671 GASKET, REAR, 116A $0.72

So, should I just contact JBL Pro Service? Have you ordered parts from JBL directly.

I need:
Part #52671
Part #20253
Part #21771

Thanks....

Robh3606
12-13-2009, 08:17 AM
So, should I just contact JBL Pro Service?

Yes. Just have the part numbers handy. If they don't have all of those there are flat paper gaskets for the 108H. Just look up an SR cabinet using a 2118 to get the P/N. You might want to get a spare set of screens for the 044's as well while you are at it. I have used Pro many times and they are really nice to deal with.

Rob:)

Punch
12-13-2009, 08:21 AM
Yes. Just have the part numbers handy. If they don't have all of those there are flat paper gaskets for the 108H. Just look up an SR cabinet using a 2118 to get the P/N. You might want to get a spare set of screens for the 044's as well while you are at it. I have used Pro many times and they are really nice to deal with.

Rob:)

Thanks Rob.

That PDF file does not have a part number for the screens. Does anyone happen to have that info?

Robh3606
12-13-2009, 08:40 AM
You can get them from the 4411 techsheet. Those would be silver though. If the screens are the same size as the 035 you can get the part number off the 4408 sheet. Those would be black. You could always spray paint them black if there is a size issue between the 035 and 044 screen.

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Studio%20Monitor%20Series/4411LR.pdf


http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Studio%20Monitor%20Series/4408.pdf

Rob:)

rdgrimes
12-13-2009, 08:50 AM
Cereal boxes work nice for cutting new gaskets. Fruit Loops has the best audio quality. ;)

BMWCCA
12-13-2009, 09:14 AM
You can get them from the 4411 techsheet. Those would be silver though. If the screens are the same size as the 035 you can get the part number off the 4408 sheet. Those would be black. You could always spray paint them black if there is a size issue between the 035 and 044 screen.
Screens are the same size (044, 035, 052, p/n 62711 SCREEN, PNTD $3.84USD EA), so are the string "retainers". Silver is no longer available anyway, in either the string or the screen. Straightening the screens is easy. Take them out and invert them on a pad of some kind (leather works well) on a table and work them from the inside with a spoon. Sorry, I don't see where a problem with the tweeter screen was mentioned so if this is extraneous just consider the source. ;)

Punch
12-13-2009, 10:34 AM
I do not think there is an issue with them. Can you pop them off the front, or is it from the rear? I can easily pull the right screen away...I am not sure if that means it is broken. I will check it out. If I am going to place an order with them, I should just order them to keep for the future.

BMWCCA
12-13-2009, 01:35 PM
I do not think there is an issue with them. Can you pop them off the front, or is it from the rear? I can easily pull the right screen away...I am not sure if that means it is broken. I will check it out. If I am going to place an order with them, I should just order them to keep for the future.:blink: I'm still not sure what problem we're trying to fix. Tweeter bodies come out from the rear (inside the cabinet) but the screens come out the front, if you want them to.

If you're placing an order with JBL for sure get some of the rubber string o-rings that go around the tweeter screens to hold them to the aluminum tweeter body. They go bad and can/will crack if you remove them, and they're cheap. If you don't have the string/ring around the perimeter of the screen, the only thing holding it in is the tweeter's magnet or the tension of the screen's shape.

Punch
12-13-2009, 02:21 PM
:blink: I'm still not sure what problem we're trying to fix. Tweeter bodied come out from the rear (inside the cabinet) but the screens come out the front, if you want them to.

If you're placing an order with JBL for sure get some of the rubber string o-rings that go around the tweeter screens to hold them to the aluminum tweeter body. They go bad and can/will crack if you remove them, and they're cheap. If you don't have the string/ring around the perimeter of the screen, the only thing holding it in is the tweeter's magnet or the tension of the screen's shape.

Oh....so the screen comes out from the front. They look perfect, but if you pull on one of them slightly, the screen will start to pull out. Normal or bad o-ring? Should I not be able to pull it out with ease from the front?

BMWCCA
12-13-2009, 02:39 PM
Should I not be able to pull it out with ease from the front?Well, it should be darn difficult remove the screen without first removing the O-ring, but not if it's been messed with already. Like maybe a small child smashed it and Dad tried to straighten it. Not that that could have happened to yours! ;)

Robh3606
12-13-2009, 02:57 PM
If I am going to place an order with them, I should just order them to keep for the future.

Exactly get them now while they are still in stock. Probably will be for a while but you never know.

Rob:)

Punch
12-13-2009, 04:48 PM
Exactly get them now while they are still in stock. Probably will be for a while but you never know.

Rob:)

I will call them tomorrow, here are all of the numbers and descriptions:
Part #52671 (8" gasket)
Part #20253 (14" gasket)
Part #21771 (104H gasket)
Part #62511 (044 gasket)
Part #62711 screen

I am dropping the speakers off on Tuesday for the new surrounds and dust caps. I did the cabs today with 0000 steel wool and then the Howard's Feed n' Wax....they look great.

BMWCCA
12-13-2009, 05:05 PM
I will call them tomorrow, here are all of the numbers and descriptions:
Part #52671 (8" gasket)
Part #20253 (14" gasket)
Part #21771 (104H gasket)
Part #62511 (044 gasket)
Part #62711 screen.Don't forget the 044's screen-retainer O-ring:
62664 RETAINER SCREEN $0.36 USD EA

Punch
12-13-2009, 05:22 PM
Don't forget the 044's screen-retainer O-ring:
62664 RETAINER SCREEN $0.36 USD EA

Doh! Thanks. Now my order is complete.

Punch
12-14-2009, 08:55 AM
Everything is ordered...JBL Pro Service Parts Dept was a pleasure to deal with...you were right.

All of the gaskets and the screens should be here by Friday. I will drop off the speakers tomorrow.

Today...polishing the busbars and touching up the cabinets here and there, but they do not need much. Once I cleaned them up with the wool and Feed n' Wax, they really look smooth and rich. They have some great grain around the tweeters.

SEAWOLF97
12-14-2009, 09:18 AM
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd37/nguisto22/IMG_3707.jpg



from this pic, it looks like it is sitting on 4 tack heads, even the crappy little sliding buttons are gone ? If so, its time to put some real feet under them, to protect & level... (to protect the floor also) ...

Punch
12-14-2009, 10:00 AM
Exactly! There was only one original button. I pulled all of the nails out with a pair of side-cutters, and I used the small "sliders". I put them right over the nail holes....I can push them around with one hand like they are on casters.

http://www.magicsliders.com/sizes/

My dad is going to build a small platform to get them off the ground "slightly" in case any water gets down there.

Punch
12-15-2009, 10:49 AM
Link to my question about speaker cable....sorry for the boneheaded question, but I have never put a lot of stock into cable nor do I have extensive knowledge about it.

Thanks.

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=272755#post272755

opimax
12-16-2009, 06:48 AM
JBLDaddy,

I have left a couple of PM s offering to help your brother but have received no reply

Mark

jbl_daddy
12-16-2009, 04:35 PM
I sent him my login and password from this site, I just called him and he will be in touch when he moves into his new place in a few months. He wants to take you up on your great offer, but he is currently living with a friend and wants to wait until he moves into his new place before he contacts you.

Mark

SEAWOLF97
01-06-2010, 02:09 PM
So after all that , Nick.....how do you like the 250ti's ??

manyl have time invested in your purchase and your resulting opinion wud be nice ?? ie: Was it worth the work/money ?

Punch
01-06-2010, 08:04 PM
Hey Tom,

I did not talk about them here, but the discussion continued in the "Amp Recommendation" thread since the tone is not....good. John Van L did an AMAZING job with the foam and the 104h dust cap....and I mean amazing. I could not have asked for a better result.

With my Mac MA6500? It is not going to work. Audio Classics recommended an MC352 in front of my MA6500 (Integrated but use it as a pre-amp), but I am looking at $3700. Another place recommended the 402....again, waaay too much.

Van L lent me a Perreaux 220p and a Cary Audio SLP 70 (heavily modified by Cary Audio). The Cary pre-amp is on consignment at his shop, but Cary want to buy it from the seller.

I hooked the Perreaux and the Cary SLP 70 up, my wife sat next to me, she looked at me and said "WOW!" It really sounds that good. BUT, the seller wants $1200 for the 220P (Audio Classics had a 250P for $995) and the Cary is $1395 new...$400-$500 used...and the seller wants $1700 for it. I guess it cost a ton of cash for Cary to mod it. Sooooooo, I need to sell the Mcintosh and then I need to either come to a price agreement with this seller, or I will need to find the similar tone somewhere else.

Bottom line....250Ti + Perreaux + Cary tube pre-amp = WOW! It is one of the best systems that I have ever heard. I used "Black Cow" from Aja as my test song.

BMWCCA
01-06-2010, 08:09 PM
Bottom line....250Ti + Perreaux + Cary tube pre-amp = WOW! It is one of the best systems that I have ever heard.Sounds like other than the amp system you have, you've tried exactly, what, one other? :)

I suspect there's a more economical alternative out there you have yet to discover. You've made the right move with the speakers, the rest should be relatively easy. :dont-know

Punch
01-06-2010, 08:30 PM
Sounds like other than the amp system you have, you've tried exactly, what, one other? :)

I suspect there's a more economical alternative out there you have yet to discover. You've made the right move with the speakers, the rest should be relatively easy. :dont-know

There has to be...I just do not know what yet. If I can get a 250P Perreaux for $900 and a similar Cary pre-amp, I should be into the set-up for almost $1500. I might be able to squeeze $2400 out of the McIntosh....

I do not have the energy right now to buy a lot of gear online and then have to sell it (at a loss usually) if it does not work out. If I can find someone or a shop close by to demo some gear through the 250's, that would be ideal. I live close to a store that gets in a fair amount of trades, so that is a possibility. Other than that, I just have to take other people's words, suggestions, and opinions, and as you know, it is very subjective.

Widget suggested the Perreaux to me, and Seawolf recommended the BGW gear, and from what I have read, they are very similar.

Phil, I agree with you 100%. I spoke with 2 local high-end shops today, and I spoke with Van L. Van L was the only one who agreed with me (...us) that you do not need to spend a lot of money to get great tone....it is just a matter of finding it. I just might have it with the current set-up. It is a full, warm, detailed tone that you can feel in your chest at volume...when it is backed down, you can listen to it for hours without fatigue...very laid-back and relaxing. I just think that the seller is asking too much.

BMWCCA
01-06-2010, 08:46 PM
Widget suggested the Perreaux to me, and Seawolf recommended the BGW gear, and from what I have read, they are very similar.
I also suggested Perreaux based on hearing Opi's system with three of them. Sounds like you're happy at about 250-watts per side. I can understand why the Mac might sound a little thin. What's it running? 120 watts? I doubt the pre-amp is that critical to what you don't like so use your Mac for that or sell it and use the money. Or are you spinning LPs? Sad that you're not simply ecstatic even with the Mac running the 250s.

Maybe take the lead from Heather and go for this GF555 Adcom nearby: http://grandrapids.craigslist.org/ele/1538761744.html I doubt you'll lose much money at that price. Or this BGW: http://fortwayne.craigslist.org/ele/1521723759.html

Sounds like you need a Chicagoland listening party to sort this out!

Punch
01-06-2010, 08:55 PM
I also suggested Perreaux based on hearing Opi's system with three of them. Sounds like you're happy at about 250-watts per side. I can understand why the Mac might sound a little thin. What's it running? 120 watts? I doubt the pre-amp is that critical to what you don't like so use your Mac for that or sell it and use the money. Or are you spinning LPs? Sad that you're not simply ecstatic even with the Mac running the 250s.

Sounds like you need a Chicagoland listening party to sort this out!

You got that right Bimmer Phil!!!! A Chicagoland listening party.

The Mac is 200w per side, but it does not seem like it. Audio Classics suggested to hook the Perreaux up to it, but they think my ears are liking the tube pre-amp of the Cary...great presence and warmth. I am about 70% CD and 30% LPs right now.

I always wanted Mac gear....I am not sure how to do it right now without breaking the bank though. You are right...I am sad that it is not working. The Mac gurus alternative is going to cost $4k though. They said either the MC352 or especially the 402 will put me into tonal heaven.

BMWCCA
01-06-2010, 09:06 PM
The Mac is 200w per side, but it does not seem like it. Maybe at 4-ohm, not (apparently) at 8.

http://www.who-sells-it.com/images/catalogs/1500/5971/ct/ma6500-integrated-amplifier-000002.jpg
http://www.who-sells-it.com/cy/mcintosh-laboratory-inc-1500/ma6500-integrated-amplifier-5971/page-2-fullsize.html

brutal
01-06-2010, 10:32 PM
There has to be...I just do not know what yet. If I can get a 250P Perreaux for $900 and a similar Cary pre-amp, I should be into the set-up for almost $1500. I might be able to squeeze $2400 out of the McIntosh....

I do not have the energy right now to buy a lot of gear online and then have to sell it (at a loss usually) if it does not work out. If I can find someone or a shop close by to demo some gear through the 250's, that would be ideal. I live close to a store that gets in a fair amount of trades, so that is a possibility. Other than that, I just have to take other people's words, suggestions, and opinions, and as you know, it is very subjective.

Widget suggested the Perreaux to me, and Seawolf recommended the BGW gear, and from what I have read, they are very similar.

Phil, I agree with you 100%. I spoke with 2 local high-end shops today, and I spoke with Van L. Van L was the only one who agreed with me (...us) that you do not need to spend a lot of money to get great tone....it is just a matter of finding it. I just might have it with the current set-up. It is a full, warm, detailed tone that you can feel in your chest at volume...when it is backed down, you can listen to it for hours without fatigue...very laid-back and relaxing. I just think that the seller is asking too much.

And I suggested you consider Pro amps like a pair of bridged Yamaha PC2002M... So what if they're ugly? Beauty is in the eye (ear) of the beholder! :D You can get them cheap, cheap and flip them at cost or better if you don't like them.

jbl_daddy
01-07-2010, 05:09 PM
Every amp has its own sound, my brother was in Atl for the new year. We were listening to my ti's with some of his material and he said his speakers sounded warmer and brighter than mine. My ti's are original 250ti's and his are the black LE's. I was using a Crown K2 and he is using a pair of mono DC300 Serise 2's. After his comment I just happened to have a pair of 300's in the basement, changed amps and what a better sound with half the power. Ps. I also tried a HK Citation 16 and a a pair of Urei 6290's that were sitting in my dady basement. The old Crown's sounded the most natural and added the least amount of color, at the same time were warm...

jbl_daddy
01-07-2010, 05:13 PM
18 years ago I dumped my pair of mono Adcom 565 Serise 2's for a pair of Crown PSA2's. Night and day differance.

BMWCCA
01-07-2010, 06:13 PM
The old Crown's sounded the most natural and added the least amount of color, at the same time were warm...I have to say I couldn't be happier with the Crowns running my bi-amped 4345s (DC300A-II and D150A-II). My reluctance to push Crowns for the 250s was my brief experience hooking up one of my PS-400s to Opimax's pair of 250s. Of course we were only using one Crown and Opi's system uses three Perreaux amps (I believe one was for the subs and Opi has clarified this before in another thread) and I'm pretty sure he was pushing them with more power than the PS-400 running in stereo. That being said, whatever he was using in the Perreaux line sounded better than the one Crown, but I have no idea as to what EQ/tone adjustment Opi had going in in his Sony front-end.

I am, however, intrigued as to how something can be described as "natural" and color-free, and yet be considered "warm". I suppose it's all in your frame of reference. "Warmer and brighter" might be easier to accept than "warm" and "natural" which would seem to be mutually exclusive, unless the natural sound is "warm" in which case why point it out? :blink: I'm sure it's just my misunderstanding a minor semantic issue, or a convention employed by the audio-community cognoscenti that's beyond my ken. :dont-know

:)

SEAWOLF97
01-07-2010, 06:49 PM
the 250ti's seem to love power ...they'll suck it up and just keep getting louder..rated at 400w max.

I bot the BGW 750D to run the Walsh F's since they are picky abt amps, but switched the amp to the 250's and they thrive on 375wpc.@8ohm.:D (450wpc on 4ohm)

I have no experience with Mac gear, but according to that spec sheet that Phil posted, you appear to be under powering them. Mine did run OK, but not at their best, when attached to the 100wpc 250D.

that CL ad that BMW posted for the 750B @$250 is a steal if in good shape ....I've already asked the guy if shipping is possible..awaiting response.

jbl_daddy
01-07-2010, 06:54 PM
The warm comment is a very poor way to describe the sound, the K2 does not sound bad just more ??? Tinny... Also the PS400 is the same as a DC300.

opimax
01-07-2010, 08:00 PM
I have (2) Perreaux 6000b @300 per channel and (1) 3000b @170per or 400 bridged. One set of 250s can be passively biamped and I think what you heard, 2 6000b on them, one amp on each speaker. 600 per speaker ????

The 3000b is used for the center either bridged or biamped on a single 250 currently.

Mark

BMWCCA
01-07-2010, 09:55 PM
Also the PS400 is the same as a DC300.
Similar is more accurate. There are sufficient upgrades in the PS series that I'm replacing the D's in my main system with a PS-400 and a PS-200. Turn-on delay alone will be a great benefit, but they're also rated at higher power with lower distortion and higher signal/noise ratio, and they even weigh more, too.

jbl_daddy
01-08-2010, 03:29 PM
Well that info has helped me make a decision, my brother wanted to trade me two DC300's for 2.PS200's and one PS400 I have. Now I think I am keeping my PS gear. The only reason I was goimg to trade was to get more of the same. Do we feel that two mono PS200"s are capable of driving ti"s? My 300's that I am using were stolen from my theater system, and the K2 runs the subs in that same system.

BMWCCA
01-08-2010, 03:53 PM
Do we feel that two mono PS200"s are capable of driving ti"s? My 300's that I am using were stolen from my theater system, and the K2 runs the subs in that same system.Years ago I asked about a similar issue with Crown referencing whether a newer D150 bridged would match-up with my old D150 if I modded it to bridged. Crown reps told me not to bother and just to get a DC300A-II instead since 1). they didn't cost much more than another D150 (both were discontinued by that time anyway so we were talking used prices) and 2). the power supply on the 300 was much more robust than the 150. So even though the power ratings for the 150 bridged was impressive, Crown felt a DC300A-II operating in stereo would work better. I'm assuming that holds true for the PS-200 and PS-400 though perhaps others here with real knowledge of this stuff have another opinion. And they were right about the price, the DC300A-II I got was actually cheaper than the D150A-IIs available at the same time, mostly due to some Lowe's theaters in Florida dumping a bunch of 300s at that time. It's been working beautifully for me for many years since.

I've set aside two D150A-IIs, one DC300A-II, two PS-400s, and two PS-200s to allow me the flexibility to bi-amp with the big amps on the bottom and the smaller ones on top. Or to experiment with bridged PS-400s on the bottom and bridged PS-200s on top. So far I've not found the need to go beyond one of each operating in stereo on my bi-amped 4345s, so I've not tried anything else...yet. :dont-know

But I will substitute the PS for the D's on the 4345s simply to take advantage of the turn-on delay so I don't pop a circuit-breaker whenever my kids cut on the stereo from the pre-amp with everything else in the room running hot. It's an old house! And my attempts with a sequencer withing my price range didn't work out well.

I feel compelled to add that I believe it was Subwoof who commented that—other than the turn-on delay—the PS and Series-II D amps were identical in circuitry and output, regardless of published specs. I could be wrong about that though. So maybe your trade would make sense for you.

JeffW
01-08-2010, 04:52 PM
Well that info has helped me make a decision, my brother wanted to trade me two DC300's for 2.PS200's and one PS400 I have. Now I think I am keeping my PS gear. The only reason I was goimg to trade was to get more of the same. Do we feel that two mono PS200"s are capable of driving ti"s? My 300's that I am using were stolen from my theater system, and the K2 runs the subs in that same system.

If you want, I can bridge up a pair of PS-200s and hook them up to some 250Tis this weekend and let you know how I feel they sound. I can A/B against a single PS-400 for comparison.

JeffW
01-08-2010, 07:32 PM
I went ahead and hooked up some bridged PS-200s to the 250Tis, and that's way plenty in my estimation. Hovering in the 100 dBA range at 12:30 on the preamp knob, about as loud as I like it at this hour, and sounding actually pretty good. The red lights never even hint at blinking, and the heat sinks are cool. This is not stressing these amps at all.

I like the way this set up sounds, and will run it for a while like this. I'd run it in a heartbeat if it was available to me.

I'll do a single PS-400 here in a bit, but I'll wager right now that it's gonna be no contest in favor of the bridged PS-200s. I can't imagine running the bridged PS-200s up to the IOCs flashing and enjoying being in the same room unless it's a really big room.

BMWCCA
01-08-2010, 08:41 PM
I like the way this set up sounds, and will run it for a while like this. I'd run it in a heartbeat if it was available to me.

I'll do a single PS-400 here in a bit, but I'll wager right now that it's gonna be no contest in favor of the bridged PS-200s.

http://www.mye28.com/images/smiles/popcorn.gif

What were you powering yours with before the PS-200s?

JeffW
01-08-2010, 09:10 PM
I have run them on a lot of things, including a single PS-400. I'm sort of taken aback by how good the bridged PS-200s sound, to me this is becoming the best sounding setup I've had on these speakers. I've never bridged any of my Crowns before, but this will be how these speakers are powered now.

I'll do the single PS-400 tomorrow, but I like this a lot.

There is a set-up/calibration disc that came with my Blu ray player, it has some accoustic guitar, classical piano, serious female vocal tracks in high bit rate (BD, but I run analog out, so not sure) format. This system is all over that disc.

opimax
01-09-2010, 07:53 AM
Pardon my grumpiness (it isn't really) :p but if this is going to be an "official" thread it seems lots of non 250 info in here Also, it really should not have the ti on it so all 250 info is here IMHO. The information on the amps can be consolidated to what was really tried rather than the differeences etc.

I recommend either renaming or editing. I think the thread is great just not appropriately titled. call it Punch's 250 Journey or something similar and enjoy the ride....


Mark

SEAWOLF97
01-09-2010, 08:19 AM
I recommend either renaming or editing. I think the thread is great just not appropriately titled. call it Punch's 250 Journey or something similar and enjoy the ride....
Mark

I "officially" concur.

JeffW
01-11-2010, 07:06 PM
I "officially" don't know why guys get so bent over a thread about certain speakers morphing into a thread about what amp would drive those exact same speakers, or why guys posting about what amps they are using on those exact same speakers would warrant an entirely different thread.

There's a guy wondering about one of those exact same amp/speaker combos just a few posts up, I haven't seen anybody post about straight L250, it's all been 250Ti.

Do you guys just sit your 250Tis off in a corner, or do you actually connect amps to them? I connect amps to mine, I find it makes them sound better. I don't own L250s, so I have no idea what amp would sound best on those. The OP has 250Tis, I have 250Tis, the guy wondering about the different combination of Crown amps has 250Tis.

Is it so much of a stretch to think that 3 different guys with the same sets of speakers would curiously want to exchange notes on what amps they were trying/using/enjoying with those exact same sets of speakers, even if those combinations were not interesting/relevant to you?

I did quite a bit of A/B comparison between the bridged mono PS-200 and stereo PS-400, all on JBL 250Ti speakers, and had some pretty interesting conclusions about the whole deal, but then I remembered a promise I made last time I tried to add anything to this site, thanks to this thread.


No, I'm done. I don't know what I was thinking by attempting to add anything to this forum, it was a mistake I won't be repeating.

Thanks to all for reminding me of my promise during my time of weakness, I almost broke down and attempted to try to help a poster or two.

opimax
01-11-2010, 08:41 PM
I didn't see that coming!

a suggestion is not a ruling, it was suppose to be a fairly light comment and in a questioning tone.

Ther are various other 250 threads that are not here that contain much information, some from the designer of the speaker and his recommendations which have not been added to this "offical" thread. My concern was for search engine responses and official is so ....official sounding.:D

I personally enjoy the thread very much.

Mark

Punch
01-11-2010, 08:46 PM
I am "officially" giving up.

BMWCCA
01-11-2010, 09:44 PM
I did quite a bit of A/B comparison between the bridged mono PS-200 and stereo PS-400, all on JBL 250Ti speakers, and had some pretty interesting conclusions about the whole deal, but then I remembered a promise I made last time I tried to add anything to this site, thanks to this thread.

I'd still be interested in your thoughts. I think you jumped the gun on bailing since the only complaint was not with you or our discussion of amps but simply that the assumptive attitude in the naming of the thread was improper or misleading regardless of our amp discussion. There's a 4345 "Reference Thread" that links to other appropriate threads. This one could have been named more appropriately but no one was complaining about the content of the turns it was taking. I interpreted the request to name this for what it was—one of Punch's personal quests—and to perhaps start the true Ultimate 250 Reference Thread which would serve as a link to all 250 information on LH.

It's only the Internet. It's not really actual communication! ;) You have to allow for misunderstandings, intonation miss-reads, and loss of inflection cues. Don't kill the thread over reading something into it that wasn't actually said. :thmbsup:

brutal
01-14-2010, 09:26 PM
I am "officially" giving up.

lolz. Welcome to LHF. The home of old goats, cranks, cronies, and generally pissers-off of almost every new member. ;)

It's quite the little clique around here in case you hadn't noticed. :D

Lucky for you, you didn't come in trying to sell your great 250Ti's in MARKETPLACE or something silly like that. The fangs really come out then!
ROFL

Punch
01-15-2010, 06:06 AM
lolz. Welcome to LHF. The home of old goats, cranks, cronies, and generally pissers-off of almost every new member.

It's quite the little clique around here in case you hadn't noticed. :D

Lucky for you, you didn't come in trying to sell your great 250Ti's in MARKETPLACE or something silly like that. The fangs really come out then!
ROFL

Brutal, LOL! Thanks for the chuckle and comment.

New member? :blink: This is my 7th year here :D

Since I do not have the knowledge base of others here, I would just read the posts and contribute where I could or ask the occasional question.

Brutal....someone else PM'd pretty much their same thoughts. They can be friendly at times but then turn on you in a second with some crotchy comment. I have been on car and guitar forums for 10+ years, and they do not act in that manner. My school of thought is: If you do not have something positive to say, don't even join the discussion. So, I will just PM the people who have been helpful to me or jump back into the fire if I have to...;)

brutal
01-15-2010, 09:43 PM
Brutal, LOL! Thanks for the chuckle and comment.

New member? :blink: This is my 7th year here :D

Since I do not have the knowledge base of others here, I would just read the posts and contribute where I could or ask the occasional question.

Brutal....someone else PM'd pretty much their same thoughts. They can be friendly at times but then turn on you in a second with some crotchy comment. I have been on car and guitar forums for 10+ years, and they do not act in that manner. My school of thought is: If you do not have something positive to say, don't even join the discussion. So, I will just PM the people who have been helpful to me or jump back into the fire if I have to...;)

Didn't see the join date, just focused on the post count. Another bad intarweb habit.

Cheers

opimax
01-16-2010, 09:51 AM
deleted

Mark

Punch
01-16-2010, 12:45 PM
Russ...

Can I run a single PC2002M or do I need to run two? I know you said it was more musical than the 4002 or the 5002...I am still on the hunt for the best amp/pre-amp set up for the 250's.

The Perreaux 200p and Cary SLP-70 tube pre-amp is sounding real sweet right now, but we have not come to terms with price...and I still have my Mac which I need to sell.

brutal
01-16-2010, 01:17 PM
Russ...

Can I run a single PC2002M or do I need to run two? I know you said it was more musical than the 4002 or the 5002...I am still on the hunt for the best amp/pre-amp set up for the 250's.

The Perreaux 200p and Cary SLP-70 tube pre-amp is sounding real sweet right now, but we have not come to terms with price...and I still have my Mac which I need to sell.

The PC2002M is rated 250WPC stereo at 8Ohms. I found the 250Ti's opened up with more power and bridged a pair of the PC2002M's. You could certainly give a single one a listen to see if you like the marriage. To be clear, I actually preferred the PC2002M to the more powerful PC4002M, but haven't heard the PC5002M*. I'm actually planning to pull the PC2002M's back out of the racks in the man cave and swap them back in place of the PC4002M for a while. The PC4002M's went in without a proper bench checkout and one of them has a noisy buzz at idle and runs warm enough to occasionally trigger the right channel fan and the noise bothers me at low listening levels. The other has a wonky meter that also bugs me.

*The guy that was trying to sell the PC5002M pair here a while back stiffed me when I won them on e-bay for $2,150. Grrr I'm still quite pissed about it.

Punch
01-16-2010, 04:24 PM
What is a fair price for a PC2002M?

Mr. Widget
01-16-2010, 07:08 PM
They can be friendly at times but then turn on you in a second with some crotchy comment. I have been on car and guitar forums for 10+ years, and they do not act in that manner.I was asked to look this thread over and possibly clean it up... I had not been reading it.

While I don't feel compelled to try and make it appear to be a friendlier exchange or a more on topic one, it is too bad that people piss each other off as often as they do. For the record, I have seen the exact same sort of thing on other audio fora as well as an auto forum that I participate in... it is really too bad.


Widget

Punch
01-16-2010, 08:43 PM
Widget...PM sent.

jblnut
01-21-2010, 06:57 AM
What is a fair price for a PC2002M?

They're still very undervalued on the used market. They don't appear every day, but when they do it would be unusual to have to pay more than $400 for one. More likely $250-$350 depending on condition.

I am still using a PC2002M on my 250Ti's, almost 5 years later. I have however, switched to using tube amps (2 Dynaco Mark IIIs) on the upper 3 drivers thanks to the bi-amp (bi-wire if you want to be technical) crossover built by a senior forum member who goes by many names here. Using tubes on the high end made a *huge* difference for me. To be fair, when I was using the Yamahas (4002M on the LE14H-1 and 2002M on the upper drivers) the sound was just about perfect at lower volumes. But I didn't like the slightly hard "edge" the sound had as the volume went up. The tubes fixed this completely and now the challenge is to not get carried away with the level. It just sounds so damn good loud :).

Everyone has different tastes and your room/music/ears may prefer the Yamaha sound to the slightly softer tube sound. If you don't have bi-amp capability in the crossovers your choices are also limited. I don't recommend trying to run these speakers full-range on a modest (under 100w) tube amp. The bass gets flabby and just plain lost without a couple hundred transistor watts to contol that big driver.

I had a lot of time to compare the 4002 to the 2002 as well. I eventually sold my 4002's even though they did provide slightly more control and depth in the bass regions. They run much hotter though and are a real pain in the back to move around (96lbs). I would love to hear the 5002 as that's supposed to be "the one". But at 134lbs I can't for the life of me figure out how I would move it around.

Hope this was helpful - PM me if you want any more rambling amp/preamp/250TI observations....

jblnut

PS - a tube preamp I added last year (McIntosh C220) also did some really nice things for the overall sound....

Punch
01-21-2010, 07:21 AM
PM sent...thanks!

The 250's are set...I just sold the McIntosh Integrated yesterday on Audiogon.

I found an amazing place for wood care: Furniture Connosieur in Houston. They have a lot of products for the care of Teak, and they have a great selection of Bees Wax products and paste wax from England. Their prices are very reasonable.

Punch
07-15-2010, 11:44 AM
I am not sure where to post this, move if necessary.

Well, I am just calming down now from what happened 3 weeks ago. We had over 3" of rain in one hour and a tornado touched down near us...it looked like the end of the world outside.

Hmmmm? What is that alarm in the basement? I go into the sump pump closet, the red light is flashing and the LED screen reads "OVERCAPACITY". The sump is in my lower split basement...in the music room. I then hear water flowing. Huh? it is not the aquarium...I go up the few stairs to the first level of the basement (carpet, TV, sectional couch, aquarium, desk...set-up is nice and cozy)...and I see water pouring in through the window. The egress window has about 3' of water in it and the water is coming into the house. I run to the garage and grab an extra 1hp sump pump...I jump into the window well to clear the drain from debris...the water is up to my middle chest...I put the sump pump in and run to my neighbor for help..NOT HOME. I need to save the 250Tis keeps going through my head...there is no way I can do it by myself...I run to my other neighbor. Not only are they home, but their high school son has 2 friends over. The four of us run into my house...the water is still pouring into the basement, but the carpet on the first level is taking the brunt of it....the music room is still dry, but the sump is screaming and barely keeping up. We first brought the vintage guitars and vintage guitar amps upstairs....then we ran for the 250Tis....brought those upstairs...the the B380....grabbed the L166's...I left the stereo rack for the time-being. Well, after an hour, the rain finally stopped, the window well drained, the sump pump caught up, and I was ripping up virtually brand new carpet and padding until 1:30 am. I thought I was going to have a heart attack. If I was not 40 years old and an ex-bike racer, I just may have had one. Man, that night really sucked.

It was all do to landscaping. Long long story, but the landscaping, basically, was pitched towards the house and towards that basement window. The landscapers just came out this week...$7700 worth of work...ugh.

I am not bringing the 250's down until I get some footers and wood boards to get them off the ground at least 5".

tom1040
07-15-2010, 12:26 PM
WWOOOWW! :eek: That sucks. I am sorry to hear of that nightmare. Glad you saved the gear, however. Shit happens to good people. Last month My wife was diagnosed with breast cancer almost 5 years after I had an organ transplant...ugg.

Think of what you have. As long as you are healthy (which it would seem you are!) you'll be okay.

I hope things turn out okay. I would love to hear a pair of 250TI's. I have read thru the thread. I have a pair of 1400 Arrays with a McIntosh MC402/C46 and love them together....

Punch
07-15-2010, 12:35 PM
Well Tom, when you make it to the Chicago area, you'll have to come over for a listen. I really really wanted to stay with McIntosh gear, but I could not find anyone who would demo an amp and pre-amp for me. I knew which ones I needed to try out, but i had no takers. The Perreaux and Cary set-up has been great, and I could not pass on the price. The MC402 would have been great with a nice pre-amp. My Integrated Mac could not push the 250s.

I grew up in Arizona, so the whole sump pump thing is new to me....and basements for that matter. This is my first house, and I am learning so much....oh boy am i learning.

I have to remind myself all too often that it is only a pair of speakers...it is only carpet...it is only [fill in the blank]. My wife and I are both physicians, and as she told me..."It's a house, we can fix it....that is what you do with houses." Things can be so much worse, as a you mentioned. I will be thinking of you both...thoughts and prayers your way.

JeffW
07-15-2010, 01:46 PM
I have a buddy in Berwyn who was on vacation (South Carolina/Florida IIRC) when the flood hit his place, flooded his basement pretty bad.

Glad to hear you were able to rescue your gear.

Punch
07-15-2010, 02:52 PM
Thanks Jeff....yeah, it was bad. The tornado took the roof off of a fire dept in the town next to us. We are about 13 miles west of Berwyn...same path.

jbl_daddy
07-15-2010, 10:44 PM
One month and the 250ti's have not eaten another amp lately, I have replaced the three PS200's with three DC300 S2's. The sound is more defined and the amp's do not get hot. my little brother has been running his 250ti's for some time with DC300's so I do not think there will be any more problems.:):):)

Punch
07-15-2010, 11:54 PM
One month and the 250ti's have not eaten another amp lately, I have replaced the three PS200's with three DC300 S2's. The sound is more defined and the amp's do not get hot. my little brother has been running his 250ti's for some time with DC300's so I do not think there will be any more problems.:):):)

Good for you....I know you liked the PS200's. Enjoy the set-up...pics when you get a chance.

BMWCCA
07-16-2010, 05:39 PM
One month and the 250ti's have not eaten another amp lately, I have replaced the three PS200's with three DC300 S2's. The sound is more defined and the amp's do not get hot.

I don't recall hearing about failures. Were you bridging the PS200s?

JeffW
07-16-2010, 06:49 PM
Im currently running a pair of PS-200s bridged on my 250tis. While the numbers would indicate that a single stereo amp would be better, I really prefer the sound of the bridged PS-200s to a single PS-400. I don't run them very hard at all, but even when cranked up a bit they are nowhere near even warm. I can't imagine ever burning one up like this. You do need to check the integrity of the Mono/Stereo switch. It's a dainty little thing and will give you grief.

I have plenty of these amps, I can run bridged PS-400s if need be, but so far the bridged PS-200s are getting it done. I also have bridged PS-200s on all 5.0 (no sub) channels for the HT.

brutal
07-17-2010, 12:51 PM
Im currently running a pair of PS-200s bridged on my 250tis. While the numbers would indicate that a single stereo amp would be better, I really prefer the sound of the bridged PS-200s to a single PS-400. I don't run them very hard at all, but even when cranked up a bit they are nowhere near even warm. I can't imagine ever burning one up like this. You do need to check the integrity of the Mono/Stereo switch. It's a dainty little thing and will give you grief.

I have plenty of these amps, I can run bridged PS-400s if need be, but so far the bridged PS-200s are getting it done. I also have bridged PS-200s on all 5.0 (no sub) channels for the HT.

Give em some power. :D

I currently run with bridged Yamaha PC4002M (1400WPC bridged) that just loaf along, but will someday put my pair of PC2002M back in (600WPC bridged) and break our the LF and active XO with a (likely single) MX-2000 on the top end - 130WPC Hybrid class-A stereo. I expect an improvement so it will be interesting to find out if my assumptions are warranted.

While it doesn't have built in bridging, the MX-2000 is a common ground amp and I've tested the bridge capability running off a proper inverted pre-amp output. However, I'm still cautious about running them like this for extended periods and really do want one of them back into my daily listening rig in my home office and also prefer not to introduce yet another piece of gear (inverted amp output) into the whole thing.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_zaWkuvOim1Q/TEH8Mn1VAqI/AAAAAAAAHxg/rqxYC2WHSv4/s800/DSC_6676.JPG

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_zaWkuvOim1Q/S5ljsxKecSI/AAAAAAAAD2M/7CrWPMHA_wY/s800/yamaha_mx2000_ext1.jpg

Titanium Dome
07-17-2010, 01:28 PM
Nice. Those JBLs are still a timeless statement in my eyes, classic yet enduringly fresh.

4313B
07-17-2010, 02:37 PM
Give em some power. :DVery nice!

jbl_daddy
07-18-2010, 07:11 AM
Yes, I was bridging all three of the PS200's. Only two of the three failed in the last months, one running each 250ti and the third a B380. The two that died were on the 250 and the other was on the B380. I talked to a pro av friend and he did not recomend running the PS200 in mono, I do not know why it would hurt them??? They did die rather quickly, the system is on all day at my house. Mother in law uses it during the day and I have it on in the evenings. I will take a picture of it today and post.:blink:

4313B
07-18-2010, 07:53 AM
Have any of you directly compared the sound quality of bridged amps versus non-bridged amps?

BMWCCA
07-18-2010, 08:08 AM
Yes, I was bridging all three of the PS200's. Only two of the three failed in the last months, one running each 250ti and the third a B380. The two that died were on the 250 and the other was on the B380. I talked to a pro av friend and he did not recomend running the PS200 in mono, I do not know why it would hurt them??? They did die rather quickly, the system is on all day at my house.

Not knowing anything about your amps' failure modes, are you sure the amps didn't simply trip their thermal limiters?

I started with a Crown D150 back in the early '70s and still have it today. I later purchased a D150A-II when it was one-year-old and used that in my main system (030) and relegated the D150 to bedroom duty with the then-new L112s. When I decided to go with more power (remembering my brief DC300A audition in my home when I bought the D150, since the dealer in St. Louis insisted I take all the D-series amps home to try them), I figured another D150A-II would allow me to run them both in bridge-mode to get what I wanted. I asked Crown if there would be a functional difference between the series-II and the old 150 in such an application and they told me just to buy a DC 300A-II instead and suggested I could probably find one on Ebay for the same price as another D150A-II. They were right. In fact at the time the 300s were bringing less than the 150s since Lowes theaters were doing upgrades and dumping tons of DC300A-IIs.

The Crown tech told me though the bridge-power-rating of the 150 was impressive that the power supply was far more massive and robust in the larger amp running approximately the same power. The D-series specs show 20-joule caps for the 150 and a 1kW transformer and 48-joule caps for the 300-II. The small amp weighs 24-pounds, the larger 40-pounds. (25-pounds vs. 55-pounds on the P-series but that may include shipping container, or the massive handles on the 400.) Simply looking at the two makes those differences abundantly clear. I'm no EE but perhaps in this case size really does matter? It seems safe to assume the same case can be made for the P-series amps which are nearly the same as the D's.

:dont-know:

BMWCCA
07-18-2010, 08:17 AM
Have any of you directly compared the sound quality of bridged amps versus non-bridged amps?


I've never felt the need, but I can certainly run a bridged PS-200 to one L7 with a mono-feed and compare it to one-channel of a PS-400 unbridged to another L7. Even that's a lot of work in a spare bedroom with ten-pairs of JBLs, four Crown amps, and three Soundcraftsmen pre-amps jammed in already. And then there's that work-thing . . . :)

Might be better to take them outside, if it ever cools down! Sounds like an excuse for another Mid-Atlantic listening party. :dancin:

rdgrimes
07-18-2010, 08:27 AM
The folks at the Carver forums often state that bridging is hard on amps, but also that when you sum 2 inputs you also get summed distortion and summed noise levels. In general the feeling seems to be that it doesn't sound as clean. I've played with it a bit on several Carvers and haven't found it worthwhile. Mainly because they have ample power without it and never break 25% output even when pushed hard. IMHO, if you can deliver a true 400WPC to a 250ti without bridging you have all you need. It's also true that some people prefer the sound of an amp with slightly more distortion.

BMWCCA
07-18-2010, 08:51 AM
IMHO, if you can deliver a true 400WPC to a 250ti without bridging you have all you need. It's also true that some people prefer the sound of an amp with slightly more distortion.250ti is rated 400-W max at 8-ohm which, using JBL's normal factor means an amp with 800WPC is really the best choice. My 4345s ask for a max of 100w for the upper range and 200w max for the bottom at 8-ohms, of course times-two for headroom according to JBL so my PS-200 and PS-400 work well but seem to barely meet the requirement for those big boxes. Unbridged. :thmbsup:

A bridged PS-200 sounds like an inadequate choice for a 250Ti running at decent level. But this begs the question of what makes a 250Ti such a power-hog compared to the older 43XX series? Probably a stupid question, but nonetheless.

4313B
07-18-2010, 09:46 AM
I've played with it a bit on several <insert bridgeable amp of choice> and haven't found it worthwhile.Me neither. I use the feature primarily for maximizing SPL.
But this begs the question of what makes a 250Ti such a power-hog compared to the older 43XX series? Probably a stupid question, but nonetheless.I've found that the L220A, L250, 240Ti, 250Ti and 1400 Array are all power sponges. The older L220 sporting the LE14A just blew up all the time. The LE10H and LE14H were arguably the best examples of the alnico to SFG ferrite conversion. They just seemed to respond exceptionally well to that extra heat sink material.

With respect to the large format 43xx monitors, the 2235H and 2245H were simply more dynamic. And on that note, our favorite JBL engineer has mentioned that he really likes the increased sensitivity of the LE14H-4 in exchange for the bottom octave of the LE14H, LE14H-1 or LE14H-3.

I'm sure everyone has noticed that JBL has pretty much given up the bottom octave in full range systems in favor of subwoofers. Greg has said on several occasions that the 250Ti "goes damn near to DC" (in a large room). I've experienced that phenomenon first hand and it is quite impressive. JBL doesn't make systems like that anymore. The 1400 Array is the closest system to the old school systems with respect to bottom end and if I remember correctly Greg set it for something like a 7 dB downpoint at 30 Hz whereas all the modern fifteen-inch systems are set to something like 10 to 13 dB down at 30 Hz. They seem to integrate better into a wider variety of venues set that way.

Punch
07-18-2010, 10:03 AM
I sold my McIntosh IA that I was using because it could not power the 250's....I found out the hard way that they need gobs of power. The Perreaux and Cary set-up solved that problem.

I just need to find an amp for my B380 now...I am on the fence between a Gallo Reference and a BASH 500W.

rdgrimes
07-18-2010, 11:17 AM
I'm sure everyone has noticed that JBL has pretty much given up the bottom octave in full range systems in favor of subwoofers. Greg has said on several occasions that the 250Ti "goes damn near to DC" (in a large room). I've experienced that phenomenon first hand and it is quite impressive. JBL doesn't make systems like that anymore. The 1400 Array is the closest system to the old school systems with respect to bottom end and if I remember correctly Greg set it for something like a 7 dB downpoint at 30 Hz whereas all the modern fifteen-inch systems are set to something like 10 to 13 dB down at 30 Hz. They seem to integrate better into a wider variety of venues set that way.
I would beg to differ. The PS1400/PT800 stack is amazingly similar to a 250 in the LF. But it's true that it's down a few db around 30Hz in comparison. But the 250 is hotter at 60-80Hz too in my experience.

4313B
07-18-2010, 11:46 AM
I would beg to differ. The PS1400/PT800 stack is amazingly similar to a 250 in the LF. But it's true that it's down a few db around 30Hz in comparison. But the 250 is hotter at 60-80Hz too in my experience.Yeah, I guess you can run that stack as a full passive system if you want... I've always viewed it more as a modernized L212 system with dual powered subs as opposed to a modernized L250/250Ti.

It uses the LE14H-3 as per my point.

jbl_daddy
07-18-2010, 02:06 PM
Here is the system after the removal of the smoked gear...

brutal
07-19-2010, 02:21 PM
Needs moar baby gate. :D

In my case, re: bridged amps, the big amps loaf along at ear splitting SPL levels so the sum of any distortion, which is extraordinarily low in the Pro Yamaha PC2002M and PC4002M to begin with, is still inaudible to me.

jblnut
07-19-2010, 03:44 PM
Having used both 2002 and 4002 (still using the 2002 actually) I can't imagine needing or wanting to bridge them with a 250Ti. Either is insanely powerful in a home setting as-is.

How big is your room and how loud do you listen ?

:)

jblnut



Needs moar baby gate. :D




In my case, re: bridged amps, the big amps loaf along at ear splitting SPL levels so the sum of any distortion, which is extraordinarily low in the Pro Yamaha PC2002M and PC4002M to begin with, is still inaudible to me.

JeffW
07-19-2010, 05:04 PM
Needs moar baby gate. :D

In my case, re: bridged amps, the big amps loaf along at ear splitting SPL levels so the sum of any distortion, which is extraordinarily low in the Pro Yamaha PC2002M and PC4002M to begin with, is still inaudible to me.

Yeah, your room is a lot larger than mine. Maybe not turning mine up very high is why they stay so cool, and why the summed distortion isn't noticeable (to me). It's also convenient, since I have the speakers out a little from the wall, I just put an amp behind each speaker. You can't really see them back there, and it saves room for the HT stuff in the spartan shelf space I have.

Back to the bridged PS-200s. When I first started messing around with running these in bridged mode, the mono-stereo switches were a constant source of trouble. They are just a tiny DPDT switch and the least little crud/bad contact would cause the amp to really go south. If you try to operate in bridged mono mode and the contact wasn't really clean, then it'd get hot-distort-cause the IOC lights to come on at low volume- every and all bad things you don't want. It's also crucial to keep the CH2 (right) input attenuator at full CCW. I'm imagine all of this is common knowledge, just putting it out there as stuff that will cause them to get hot.

After I posted my previous post in the thread, I tried to run them up hard enough to get warm and just couldn't. It was late Friday evening here, so I didn't want to get too carried away, but I had no trouble hearing it at the edge of my property (3 lots) with all the doors and windows closed. And that level for half an hour or so didn't get the amps any warmer than a plasma TV or the Oppo BD player, so I don't know.

As for bass on the 250ti, it's really good. That's why I only run 5.0, no sub. With my room, I get plenty during movies (I was only running 2Ch Friday evening). I know it'd be better with a dedicated bass LFE channel, but I like what I have right now just fine.

And I just put Crystal Method "High Roller" on. 110 dba peak at about a meter, 80+ dba peaks at 31.5hz, 100 dba at 40hz (Cheap PAA2, but it's handy), no IOC lights, amps at ambient. So beats me.

jbl_daddy
07-19-2010, 07:14 PM
You may be on to something, I moved into the new house and the three PS200's were in deep storage at my fathers house for the past ten years. I had never ran them in mono, when I moved into the new house I fliped the little switches and never thought about it. Two of them were very hard to move, I will change them all back over to stereo opp and test them tonight. Getting hot, IOC lights and no sound, they were doing all that. No problems with the current setup, one of the switches was so hard to change I even took the top cover off the amp to see if it was obstructed by something.:confused: The room is 23' by 35' the speakers are on the 23' wall, the celing vaults up and acts like a horn. The room really works well with the setup, the sub is not usually even used, same as you. The housing market in Atlanta really sucks, this house was a short sale and took me six months to purchase...

JeffW
07-19-2010, 07:26 PM
The good news is, they are very easy to change out, and Rat Shack has a drop in replacement 275-0407.

brutal
07-20-2010, 12:27 PM
Having used both 2002 and 4002 (still using the 2002 actually) I can't imagine needing or wanting to bridge them with a 250Ti. Either is insanely powerful in a home setting as-is.

How big is your room and how loud do you listen ?

:)

jblnut

13x19 and partially open on the opposite end.

It's been reworked a little from this. The GEAR rack is gone and the 250Ti have been moved out and set back a little so they're closer to the storage unit as shown earlier. The L112's are elsewhere, the S38 replaced by 18Ti's and are the front effects in the 7.1 setup. The bumps along the rear side and back are bipolar wall mounts, and the sub is an SVS 20-39PC+

As I recall, I once measured at the rear couch, about 12' from the speakers around 110db, but don't listen at those damaging levels, typically more like 90db or so.


http://lh6.ggpht.com/_zaWkuvOim1Q/Rxp4NfjuydI/AAAAAAAAAd8/C4lvC1V1xYs/s800/family%20room%20zoom.jpg

Titanium Dome
07-21-2010, 12:52 PM
Have any of you directly compared the sound quality of bridged amps versus non-bridged amps?

With specific regard to 250Ti, no. But I'm sitting here in my office looking at one of my L250 pairs, which seem to be quite amenable to the use of bridged amps.

In some ways, it's the only easy option with the L250, since there's only one pair of external speaker connectors. Biamping would require getting inside.

However, the Soundcraftsmen amps I'm using are easy to bridge, and since I have many, bridging is a no-brainer. There's a discernible improvement at both the lows and mids, though I can't say the highs improve at all. The LE14H-1 and 108H appreciate ample power and strong damping. The bridged Soundcraftsmen units supply both.

Maybe it's not even the Watts per se as much as the beefy power supply being directed to assert its authority to one destination.

4313B
07-21-2010, 01:53 PM
Maybe it's not even the Watts per se as much as the beefy power supply being directed to assert its authority to one destination.You got it! Current and control.

The best amp I ever heard on the L250 and the 250Ti was the Citation XX. Its 250 watts per channel was way more than ample, very probably because of its 200 amperes of instantaneous current capability.

jbl_daddy
07-23-2010, 08:11 PM
The 250's are not the problem with the Crowns, they all work in stereo. Looks like the switches were the problem, those are some nice looking 250ti's on Audiogon. Is that the last revision, the tweeters are different than the ones in my brothers black LE's. Well I can not find the link???

Punch
10-04-2010, 07:18 PM
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380271211966&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT


:eek:

jbl_daddy
10-04-2010, 07:53 PM
Well, looking at the bids there was more than one person that was willing to spend big money for them... Lets also remember they needed a LE14 rebuild, there is a hole in one of the paper cones... This is the same price that Alan at Audio Alternatives says he fetched for a set before the economy went south. 5k is a lot for the black shiny ones... Maby he is a local pickup...

Punch
10-04-2010, 08:14 PM
Well, looking at the bids there was more than one person that was willing to spend big money for them... Lets also remember they needed a LE14 rebuild, there is a hole in one of the paper cones... This is the same price that Alan at Audio Alternatives says he fetched for a set before the economy went south. 5k is a lot for the black shiny ones... Maby he is a local pickup...

Agreed.

DavidF
10-04-2010, 09:55 PM
47832
Well, looking at the bids there was more than one person that was willing to spend big money for them... Lets also remember they needed a LE14 rebuild, there is a hole in one of the paper cones... This is the same price that Alan at Audio Alternatives says he fetched for a set before the economy went south. 5k is a lot for the black shiny ones... Maby he is a local pickup...

The cabinets look to be in fine shape. Interesting that the all black cabinets seem smaller than the oiled wood finishes. Perception of shape is familiar but altogether different in dimension. I usually don't go for the deep black finishes but I have to admit that it compliments the design of those cabinets as shown in the photos.

Punch
10-05-2010, 01:52 AM
47832

The cabinets look to be in fine shape. Interesting that the all black cabinets seem smaller than the oiled wood finishes. Perception of shape is familiar but altogether different in dimension. I usually don't go for the deep black finishes but I have to admit that it compliments the design of those cabinets as shown in the photos.

David....you do know that black is very slimming :D

Cactus Bob
10-05-2010, 03:52 PM
Hey guys, does that Limited have the same drivers as the 250ti's?

rdgrimes
10-05-2010, 04:42 PM
Hey guys, does that Limited have the same drivers as the 250ti's?
Not really. Different XOs also. Main diff is the tweets.

SEAWOLF97
10-05-2010, 04:53 PM
Main diff is the tweets.

yup , the ones in the Limited are cheaper and much easier to locate.

Go to completed eBay records and compare the 044Ti from the original 250Ti(nla) with
the limited editions 035Tia ( cheap , plentiful & easy to locate)

I have both for spares (different systems) ...the 035 has plastic bezel and is much smaller and lighter ....nothing wrong with 035, but I prefer the sound of the 044.

Cactus Bob
10-05-2010, 05:16 PM
yup , the ones in the Limited are cheaper and much easier to locate.


Are they really? So why would those go for so much . . . condition? Going overseas?

Titanium Dome
10-06-2010, 09:52 PM
Are they really? So why would those go for so much . . . condition? Going overseas?

Possible answers:
Bidding fever!
Misguided sense of speaker worth
Hates to lose no matter how stupid it is to win
Someone's compensating for something
Favorite song is "Paint It Black" and the cosmic urge was irresistible
Thought they were made of licorice
Mistook them for Stonehenge prop from Spinal Tap

brutal
10-08-2010, 09:13 AM
Possible answers:

Bidding fever!
Misguided sense of speaker worth
Hates to lose no matter how stupid it is to win
Someone's compensating for something
Favorite song is "Paint It Black" and the cosmic urge was irresistible
Thought they were made of licorice
Mistook them for Stonehenge prop from Spinal Tap



8. Two nuke bidders gone awry

Titanium Dome
10-17-2010, 05:10 PM
With prices like that (depending on which auction result you believe) or the prices sometimes paid for Paragons, I feel like the K2s I got are the bargain of the century. I think all reason has gone out of the market. I guess if there's good news it's that Northridge/LA area made products will increase in value as time goes by.

Robh3606
10-17-2010, 07:24 PM
1993250TiBQ Ti Series Ltd. Edition$2,499 ea

Well for openers lets triple the price on them. Sure that helped a bit


(1) Pair of JBL 250Ti speakers in excellent condition.
Original retail price: $16,000



Rob:)

JBLAddict
10-17-2010, 09:34 PM
I feel like the K2s I got are the bargain of the century.

This is indisputable!

Punch
10-19-2010, 03:07 AM
In my best Gomer Pyle voice: "Surprise, Surprise, Surprise....."

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380279694784&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNARL:US:1123

He is also listing the Teaks as well.

Cermanic
10-19-2010, 09:30 AM
Anyone have any comments on the Teak 250's? What are they worth?

Punch
10-19-2010, 09:40 AM
Anyone have any comments on the Teak 250's? What are they worth?

They look pretty solid to me. I would not worry about the hairline crack around the tweeters...can always be fixed if it worsens.

The bottoms look good...no major chips. The dust caps are all intact...as well as the foam...one small tear in the one grill cloth. They just need a good cleaning...a REALLY good cleaning and wood treatment. They look dirty and dry to me. I would contact the seller and ask more questions.

In this market, I have no idea what they are worth, but I would keep it under $2K without including the shipping in your bid. It would be nice if you got them for $1400-$1600 since there always can be that surprise repair (s) waiting for you.

JeffW
10-19-2010, 09:40 AM
Anyone have any comments on the Teak 250's? What are they worth?

In the thread about these speakers in the For Sale forum, it's pointed out that this seller has really shady business practices and an inflated view of value. If his auctions don't meet his price expectations, he just refuses to sell that item. Something tells me that nobody will ever purchase these speakers for their actual value.

Cermanic
10-19-2010, 10:53 AM
Thanks Jeff and Punchy. :D

Punch
12-15-2010, 12:12 PM
Updated picture of the listening room...the sub is hooked up yet.

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd37/nguisto22/NPG_5239.jpg

SEAWOLF97
12-15-2010, 03:24 PM
Updated picture of the listening room...the sub is hooked up yet.



like your stands neath them Nick, do they roll around ?

Punch
12-15-2010, 05:26 PM
Hey Tom....no wheels. There are wood buttons on the bottom of them though, and they slide pretty easily. Rusty Jefferson hired a friend of his to make them for me. Three solid walnut platforms, chamfered edges, Watco Medium Walnut Oil...He copied the Mapleshade design without the Mapleshade price :applaud:

I will take some close-ups for you. It gives me piece of mind that the bottom edge is protected. Also, since they are in the basement, you know I have been concerned about water seepage. AND, hopefully it makes a bit of a sonic difference. I will keep you posted on that A/B test.

Punch
12-15-2010, 05:27 PM
The left one looks uneven...they are completely square and flat...optical illusion from the 18mm wide-angle lens.

jbl_daddy
12-20-2010, 02:47 PM
Punch

Could you attach some more plctures of the platform, and the construction details. They look great.

Punch
12-20-2010, 07:28 PM
Punch

Could you attach some more plctures of the platform, and the construction details. They look great.

Will do....as soon as I have a minute, I will take a few closer pictures.