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View Full Version : 2226h+2426h for hi-fi



tweeter
11-30-2009, 02:11 PM
How good is this combination for hi-fi?
What cabinet and crossover are Ok for them?

Is there another two-way combination better (and cheaper)?

badman
11-30-2009, 03:59 PM
Potentially very good. They're used in the SR4725 together, the 2426 on a 2370 horn. I tried the 4725 as a hifi speaker and it was good fun, though lacking somewhat in ultimate refinement.

You can definitely use their crossover (it's online, somewhere) as a starting point, or acquire the XO in completed form.

It's a shame you're in south spain, as we could work something out. I want the 2226h and 2426h out of the 4725 cabs, but you could certainly manage to pry the cabs and XOs out of my hands.

Allanvh5150
11-30-2009, 08:38 PM
The combination is pretty good crossed over at around 800 -1000 Hz. As for refinement? you wont see much of that although when tamed correctly your friends will be impressed.

Allan.

robertbartsch
12-01-2009, 05:56 AM
I have a couple of these for hi-fi/ home cinema and they are very good when set up properly in a suitible sized cabinet with a proper horn and a passive x-over.

Some folks add an UHF tweeter such as the 2405 but it is not essential.

Their sensativity is high so you don't need a bunch of big power but to make them really sing, 200wpc would allow you to hear their full potential.

spkrman57
12-01-2009, 06:24 AM
See my avatar for example...

Ron sends......

tweeter
12-01-2009, 07:24 AM
And if I use 2206h instead 2226h?

robertbartsch
12-03-2009, 04:48 AM
The 2206 is a very competant 12" driver that requires a lot smaller cab.

Ideally all speakers in the HT should be the same, so many go with the 2206.

Basically, it is a compremise, however. The 15" 2226 is a much better performer but it must be in a big box to provide its full potential.

Flaesh
12-03-2009, 09:15 AM
What's difference between 2426 and 2426 HPL?
2446 and 2446 HPL?

Robh3606
12-03-2009, 09:20 AM
Is there another two-way combination better (and cheaper)?

Better? Yes, get a pair of 2235's to go with the 2426's and a pair of 2344 horns and make a pair of 4430's

Rob:)

Eaulive
12-03-2009, 10:13 AM
What's difference between 2426 and 2426 HPL?
2446 and 2446 HPL?

If I'm not mistaken the HPL is to differenciate the driver sold as a discrete component and the driver sold as a part of a whole system.

Some cosmetics are different like the foilcal and at times a magnet protector.

4343
12-03-2009, 12:46 PM
What's difference between 2426 and 2426 HPL?
2446 and 2446 HPL?

2446H is different from 2446HPL in that it has a rubber magnet protector.

The PL suffix means it is Protector Less. A clear-cut case of More Is Less...

badman
12-04-2009, 08:13 AM
Better? Yes, get a pair of 2235's to go with the 2426's and a pair of 2344 horns and make a pair of 4430's

Rob:)

I spent some time reviewing the datasheets of 2344 and 2370 the other day, 2344 has very inconsistent off-axis performance, probably due to the hardcore effort put at maintaining averaged power within their chosen window (that's a nasty looking slot).

Most modern horns have gone away from such heroic efforts, and tend to be more consistent within their off-axis windows. A 2370 with some mild tweaking could be a far superior horn. A little 30PPI reticulated foam in the throat (geddes style) and some large rounding and/or edge termination would dramatically improve this horn. I got good results from felt around the mouth perimeter.

Robh3606
12-04-2009, 08:49 AM
A 2370 with some mild tweaking could be a far superior horn.


Maybe but I doubt it. Right out of the box the 2344 sounds better. Are you just looking at spec sheets or have you actually listened to both of them?? All of those early diffraction horns are a bit rough it goes with the territory. Geedes Suma is essentially a modernized 4430.

Rob:)

SMKSoundPro
12-04-2009, 01:00 PM
Yes, get a pair of 2235's to go with the 2426's and a pair of 2344 horns and make a pair of 4430's. Rob:)


Yes, I agree with approach. User Subwoof always states: "there's enough highs from a 2426 to stearilize a teenage bat!" I found this to be the case when I built my copy of the SR4735. They contain a 2226 woof, 2416/2371 horn for highs and a 2118 for mids. I think they are a very good cabinet size and utilization of components.

Just my $.02. you mileage may vary.

Scotty.

tweeter
12-05-2009, 05:00 PM
Should be the LE10H a good partner as a mid with the 2226h and the 2426?

badman
12-05-2009, 05:40 PM
Maybe but I doubt it. Right out of the box the 2344 sounds better. Are you just looking at spec sheets or have you actually listened to both of them?? All of those early diffraction horns are a bit rough it goes with the territory. Geedes Suma is essentially a modernized 4430.

Rob:)

I've listened to both, but the 2344 only briefly. The 2370 is definitely a little rough, hence the desire for tweaking.

4343
12-06-2009, 05:12 PM
Should be the LE10H a good partner as a mid with the 2226h and the 2426?

A dedicated mid driver like 2223H would probably sound better and allow a higher crossover point to the 2426.

SMKSoundPro
12-07-2009, 01:39 PM
A dedicated mid driver like 2223H would probably sound better and allow a higher crossover point to the 2426.

Is it posible you mean: a 2123 - 10" driver?

Scotty.

ps. The SR4735 and other variants use a 2118/2119 or some other 8" driver, I recall.

Russellc
12-07-2009, 02:28 PM
Maybe but I doubt it. Right out of the box the 2344 sounds better. Are you just looking at spec sheets or have you actually listened to both of them?? All of those early diffraction horns are a bit rough it goes with the territory. Geedes Suma is essentially a modernized 4430.

Rob:)

I seriously doubt it too. I suspect he hasnt listened. 4430 is one of the most highly thought of monitors, nothing with 2370 ever came close from the factory. IMHE, anyway.

2370 might be easier to impliment, 2344 requiring special compensation, from the 4430 crossover. I believe Zilch's old "4430 Help" thread has the BOM for a clone crossover.

Russellc

badman
12-07-2009, 03:17 PM
I seriously doubt it too. I suspect he hasnt listened. 4430 is one of the most highly thought of monitors, nothing with 2370 ever came close from the factory. IMHE, anyway.

2370 might be easier to impliment, 2344 requiring special compensation, from the 4430 crossover. I believe Zilch's old "4430 Help" thread has the BOM for a clone crossover.

Russellc

Well, I already said I had heard them only briefly. It seems as though people are focused on the 2370 here as it comes. I'm not saying that "as it comes" is acceptable. The small tweaking I've done around the mouth dramatically improved this horn. This was simply 1/4" F11 felt around the edges of the mouth.

Simplifying the complexities of horn design is a slippery slope, but one of the major differences in these horns (apart from the coverage pattern) is the smoother mouth termination on the 2344, which is likely a contributor to the smoother, more laid-back sound I noted with this horn. There's no reason that the 2370 can't be significantly improved in this regard. The diffraction throat is problematic in both horns, if you're going to put any weight in the geddes work.

Here is a thread where some very basic, Geddes-principled, tweaks were applied to a terrible set of horns, to the effect of fairly dramatic improvement.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/151376-homster-how-i-learned-how-fix-horn.html

One could apply the edge terminations to the straighter parts of the 2344 profile as well, or apply the throat damping, or both, however, it seems that the dramatically more consistent polars make the 2370 a better 'start' platform.

pos
12-07-2009, 11:52 PM
One could apply the edge terminations to the straighter parts of the 2344 profile as well
That would probabely defeat the whole constant directivity capabilities of the 2344, as it is based on diffraction on the horisontal plan.


however, it seems that the dramatically more consistent polars make the 2370 a better 'start' platform.

The polars of the 2344 are extremely consistant, much more than oblate spheroidals waveguides for example! Diffraction might have sonic defaults, but it is a very powerfull tool to control directivity.

badman
12-08-2009, 08:28 AM
That would probabely defeat the whole constant directivity capabilities of the 2344, as it is based on diffraction on the horisontal plan.
It's the vertical section I'm discussing, and the diffraction that largely drives the dispersion is mostly the throat slot




The polars of the 2344 are extremely consistant, much more than oblate spheroidals waveguides for example! Diffraction might have sonic defaults, but it is a very powerfull tool to control directivity.

Not even close. Check the 2344 datasheet.

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/pro-comp/2344/page3.jpg

Now compare to a 2370

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/pro-comp/2370/page4.jpg

That's a dramatically better performer, in this respect, and a geddes style waveguide is better still

pos
12-08-2009, 10:42 AM
It's the vertical section I'm discussing, and the diffraction that largely drives the dispersion is mostly the throat slot

Look at the polar plots.
2344
http://lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/pro-comp/2344/page2.jpg
2370
http://lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/pro-comp/2370/page2.jpg
http://lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/pro-comp/2370/page3.jpg

The horizontal directivity is the most critical one. The vertical will be messed up by the woofer/horn offset around the crossover anyway.


Not even close. Check the 2344 datasheet.

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/pro-comp/2344/page3.jpg

Now compare to a 2370

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/pro-comp/2370/page4.jpg

That's a dramatically better performer, in this respect, and a geddes style waveguide is better stillWhat we can certainly see is that the 2370 is *not* constant directivity in the horizontal plan and adding foam or rouding edges will do nothing about that.

--
EDIT: they seem to have reversed horizontals and verticals here, compared to the polar plots. So the device actually is constant directivity on the horizontal plan, but not on the vertical one.
--

Tweaking these horns does little sense: They rely on diffraction to achieve their directivity control.
Thanks to diffraction the 2344 manages to control his directivity on a really impressive bandwidth given its size: down to 800Hz and up to 16khz, which is a performance a waveguide of this size will never approach (this would typically achieve good control over the 1200hz-12khz range)

If you dislike diffraction, which I can fully understand, why not use waveguides (Geddes or PT style) to start with?

badman
12-08-2009, 11:12 AM
Look at the polar plots.
2344
http://lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/pro-comp/2344/page2.jpg
2370
http://lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/pro-comp/2370/page2.jpg
http://lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/pro-comp/2370/page3.jpg

The horizontal directivity is the most critical one. The vertical will be messed up by the woofer/horn offset around the crossover anyway.

What we can certainly see is that the 2370 is *not* constant directivity in the horizontal plan and adding foam or rouding edges will do nothing about that.

--
EDIT: they seem to have reversed horizontals and verticals here, compared to the polar plots. So the device is constant directivity on the horizontal plan, but not on the vertical one.
--

Tweaking these horns does little sense: Thay rely on diffraction to achieve their directivity control.
Thank to diffraction the 2344 manages to control his directivity on a really impressive bandwidth given its size: down to 800Hz and up to 16khz, which is a performance a waveguide of this size will never approach (this would typically achieve good control over the 1200hz-12khz range)

If you dislike diffraction, which I can fully understand, why not use waveguides (Geddes or PT style) to start with?

The problem in the 2344 is not the bandwidth, but that the response is highly volatile across the polars, with the treble tending to remain largely constant while the mid is sucked out, and so you wind up with highs and lows that are not attenuated off-axis, and mids that are. This extremely wide treble dispersion also would tend to increase room reflections in these frequencies that are critical to timing and spatial cues. Part of the advantage of a controlled directivity speaker is to reduce room interaction.

The PT is an improvement (as is an XT1086, or other "modern" diffraction horns), and the geddes better still. I'm focused on the 2370 because I'm thinking of commonly available and inexpensive horns to work (this is available in a generic, and goes much lower than the inexpensive PT waveguide) with as a platform for simple modification to a higher level of performance. The diffraction slot in the throat will operate still with the foam in place, as a direct path will tend to see very little attenuation from the foam type recommended, where the "HOMs" (I'm inclined to think Earl's understanding is accurate about this poorly-documented phenomenon) would encounter the foam many times, increasing the loss. So my theory is that the diffraction would take place largely unfettered, while the byproducts of it would be attenuated.

The roundovers, on a horn used within proper loading bandwidth, won't have much effect within the intended coverage area. What they will tend to do is reduce anomalies far off-axis, and reduce the secondary source effect of the mouth termination.

So, indeed, my thought path is pretty specific here. The 2370 is nice in that it's well-controlled, goes low, is available and inexpensive.

I am, for what it's worth, working on a set of OS waveguides. I'm just still figuring out the driver mounting.

4343
12-09-2009, 10:25 PM
Is it posible you mean: a 2123 - 10" driver?

Scotty.




Exactly. Didn't get back in time to edit, thanks for correcting that!

tweeter
12-28-2009, 02:08 PM
Is it possible to recone the LE10H with 2121, 2122 or 2123 conekits?
Will match as a mid with 2226h + 2426 + 2405?
Should be a good four-way system?

SMKSoundPro
12-28-2009, 02:26 PM
Yes, I belive the basket is the same. A 2123 - 10" fits in a D110, E110, k110 basket.
But...
if you're going to this extent of a 2226 woof, 2123 lo-mid, 2426/2170 mid-hi, 2405 slot UHF...

Then dump the 2226 for a 2235 15" or 2245 18" foam surround woofer!!!

I am getting confused here on what your purpose for this speaker? Is it pro PA, or Home Hi-Fi? You started with a simple question of a two-way PA box, and now are talking about a potential 4-way project.

I am just sayin'

The 2235 15" woofer and 2425/2426 on the 2344 horn, (or maybe even the same 2344 horn and 2416 driver out of the SR4722) seems like a real solid combination when using the crossover of the 4430 studio monitor.
(edit: I am considering doing this exact same configuration with my 4722's, that is using the 2344 horn for a 4430 clone project>)

Good luck and tell us how this turns out.
Scotty.

tweeter
12-28-2009, 03:24 PM
Thanks for your help, Scotty.

Im not sure what I want. I only know that I wish a definitive system for home Hi-Fi with PA or Hi-Fi drivers.
First, I thought about a simply two or three ways, but I realized that I have an extra pair of LE10H that I will have to recone for sure.
So, I would go for a 21xx conekits and to use them in the system.
Its hard to find a good pair of 2235h so, Im thinking the 2226h because they are pretty easy to find brand new.
Anyway, what is the sonical difference between them? why is 2235h better than 2226h?

B.R.

SMKSoundPro
12-29-2009, 07:36 PM
I have been doing the same as you decsribe for years, using pro audio drivers for hi-fi, but through the advice I have found here on LH, I have seen the "light" and now use the JBL monitor drivers the way they were intended, and use the PA pro drivers for the sound rigs I have built and installed.

I am not in business to install commercial sound systems in buildings, arenas or houses of worship. I have many different JBL drivers and assorted pieces and parts that I have cobbled together to make a pretty good sounding and behaving rig.

I am not sure what cone kits are still available for the 10" frame, except the 2123 which has been used in many boxes. When you start looking at the many options in home hi-fi configurations offered here, you may see the same recurring theme I did, which was a solid 5 cubic foot woofer cabinet such as the 4507 with a 2235 tuned at 27 hz. Then to a 10" as low-mid duty to cover the 250 - 1200 area, then into a 1" or 1.5" compression driver on the right horn that can go all of the way up to 20Khz, and if not, add a 2405 slot tweeter at 8-10Kz and let it run upto the wavelength of daylight. Oh wait, that is the 4345!

I also tryed a popular threeway approach using my L200b cabinet as the woofer with its "vintage" 136 drivers as the lows, then into a 2441/2309/2310 horn combo, and into a slot tweeter. I really like this configuration in my workshop space, and have a double 18" sub underneath it all, just in case.

I am currently looking for a pair of 2226's for a project here at the nightclub, and if somehow reasonable, would trade you a pair of fresh coned 2235's for your project. I see distance and import/export duties might be difficult to overcome, though.

Lastly, I believe the 2226 is a very good low frequency driver for pro audio, but don't see it as a viable woofer in home hi-fi. The compliance is stiff and made for a wallop of current applied. The 2235 is foam surrounded and highly compliant an goes lower, easier. It is the cornerstone for some of JBL's most popular designs, from what I can tell from the information offered here and by many.

If you choose to: Nail down the style of speaker you want. Home hi-fi or pro PA, they are two different animals. We'll still be here when you start putting it all together. Use the search tab at the top, read, read, and read some more. I have found allot of very useful info here.

Good luck!

Scotty.

Robh3606
12-29-2009, 08:47 PM
Im not sure what I want.

The best thing you can do is pick one and go for it. I have cloned a couple of JBL speakers and if you are looking at a heritage large format 4 way I would go for either a 4344 or a 4345. I went with 4344's because size was an issue. Both represent the best and the last of their kind before the switch to the 4430/4435. If you want a CD horn system go with the 4430.


Its hard to find a good pair of 2235h

You don't need to find 2235's as long as you can get fresh recone kits. Use a 2225 frames as cores and drop in 2235 kits. That is the best route as you know up front you have essentally brand new drivers.

Rob:)

tweeter
12-30-2009, 08:18 AM
According to LHF members, the things are starting to be clear.
For a four-way system:
I need 2235h for bass, 2122h or 2123h conekits for mid-bass,
2426 or 2420 and 2307 plus 2308 lens for highs and 2405 for uhf.
For a two-way system:
2235h and 2426h plus 2344 horn.
The xover are another question.

Its time of hunting......

SMKSoundPro
12-30-2009, 08:26 AM
By Jove, I think he's got it!

Please keep us informed of your progress with pictures and the like.

Scotty.