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View Full Version : Need help with crossover 2440/2360 and 2405



aktivkampi
11-24-2009, 07:26 AM
Please, can anyone help me with my crossover for my 2440/2360 and my 2405. I wan't to cross them at about 9 KHz. Has someone good ideas ???. The 2405 is mounted in the 2360. What about passive EQ for the 2360 ??? I'm thankful for any ideas.

1audiohack
11-24-2009, 08:37 PM
Hi aktivkampi;

I have crossed mine at 8KHz and 10KHz and think the 2360's sound fine either way. I like the 2405's crossed high so I just cross them at 10KHz.

From 1KHz to 10KHz THE 2360 will only need an EQ slope of -4.5dB at 1KHz rising smoothly to 0dB cut at 10kHz.

I did mine active so I don't have any information on a passive schematic, sorry.

I would like to see how you integrated the 2405 into the 2360. I placed my 2405 in front, I want to integrate it but just don't have the heart to hole saw the 2360, yet. Will you post a picture please?

aktivkampi
11-26-2009, 10:24 AM
Hi 1audiohack

Here are some pictures of my system. At the moment, it's only a testing phase. After I find the finally position of the slots, I'll make it a little bit "nicer":)
I have two corner subs with 2235 reconed in a K 140 basked. They are crossed at 63 Hz / 18 db with an aktiv crossover. As low-mid I use a 2206. They are running from 63 Hz to 500 Hz. The 2360 starts at 500 Hz and it's crossed with an 0,22 mH inductor in series and a 1,5 yF capacitor parallel. The slots are crossed with an 18 dB filter 1,0 yF + 1,5 yF in series and in between a 0,15 mH inductor. Hope you like it, after finishing the project, I'll psot some new pictures

aktivkampi
11-26-2009, 10:37 AM
some more pictures.......:D

Ruediger
11-26-2009, 11:03 AM
Hi aktivkampi,

the 2440 requires a tweeter, it's HF response drops abruptly at ca. 10 kHz, too much to equalize it.

The 2441 is a 2440 with a different diaphragm, it has a better HF response and it can be equalized such that a tweeter is not needed.

This is also true for the 2450.

So You can either swap the diaphragm or sell the 2440 alltogether and buy a 2450.

If You buy a decent digital crossover then:
1.) You can apply the CD horn correction.
2.) You can equalize the HF end.
3.) You can put the woofer and the midrange driver in the same plane by delaying the woofer.

Ruediger

speakerdave
11-26-2009, 01:30 PM
JBL made the 3160 crossover to include the passive equalization for those big bi-radial horns. The schematic is at JBL pro, but you can't build it, because that tapped inductor is not available. I'm not sure it will compensate correctly with the 2440 diaphragm, which, as another poster said, drops off at about 9 or 10k. I also agree with the suggestion to use SL diaphragms. But, if you like the 2440 diaphragm in particular --I know some prefer it--I would suggest you try running it with the 3160 (i.e., without a low pass inductor at the upper end of its range) and experiment with crossing the 2405 in separately, or, as GT suggests, run it with a high-passed chip amp or similar.

jerv
11-27-2009, 01:46 AM
I am also playing with the 2360. I use (for the moment) 2445J drivers with standard diaphragms, but I have ordered 2450SL aquaplased dias. They have not arrived yet, so my measurements and simulations are with the standard 2445J driver.

According to my measurements, the 2360/2445 combination drop off from 1 kHz at a slope of about 5dB to 5kHz. Then it drops off somewhat steeper up to 10kHz, which is about 12dB down, again compared with 1 kHz. Between 10 and 20 kHz it apperas to be two resonances, extending the response somewhat. See attached graph, black curve.

FWIW, I have made a passive equalizing network for this combination with crossover at 600 Hz and response from 800 Hz to 20kHz within +/- 2.5dB. To achieve this, the 1kHz level is damped about 12 dB. See attached graph, blue curve.

If you elect to use the 2405 (as I also intend) with a crossover of about 8-9 kHz, the 2360/2445 doesn't need nearly as much compensation: about 3-4 dB attenuation at 1-2 kHz is enough. I have simulated the 2360/2445J with a 4th order filter slope at 9 kHz (see graph, red curve), but I haven't gotten to actually installing and measuring the 2405's yet. I will keep you posted.

Atteched: 2360/2445J curvers, and passive crossover/equalizing network for use without tweeter.

Beowulf57
11-27-2009, 05:42 AM
9 KHz might be a bit high for the 2440? I haven't used them, but JBL literature usually crosses over to an 075/077 lower than that with the 375/2440. You could check out the 3106 (N8000) network here: http://www.jblproservice.com/navigation/Network%20Schematics.html. The HF level control would allow you to dial in your sweet spot. Perhaps also the 3105/N7000? Others with more experience than I would know better...just a thought.

aktivkampi
12-25-2009, 10:00 AM
Hello to everyone......

Just finished my project, now I'll post some pictures. Hope you'll like it.:) Now I'll do some experiments with the passive filtersection between the 2360 and the 2405. I'm thankful for any advice, specially for passive EQ for the 2360 and the 2440....:banghead:

Merry Cristmas to all

greetings Aktivkampi

pos
12-25-2009, 10:34 AM
wow :shock:
that is an amazing finish on the 2360!!

Allanvh5150
12-25-2009, 11:33 AM
I agree with POS. Nice finish on the horns. Is that an auto colour?

aktivkampi
12-25-2009, 12:35 PM
Yes, it's an autocolour from BMW. It's called "Milanobeigemetallic".

jerv
12-27-2009, 11:18 AM
Wow - looking very nice!!!

How are the 2405's mounted? What about the placement in the mouth of the horns: does it give any ill effects (diffraction etc)?

EDIT: Please provide some detail pictures of the 2405 mounting :)

aktivkampi
12-28-2009, 04:48 AM
Hi Jerv

The 2405 are mounted on the same plate on what the 2360 is mounted. I cannot describe it so well in englisch, hope the pictures will do that !!!! The speakercable is an dnm reson. It runs between the top of the basic enclosure and the plate on what the 2405 is mounted. Behind the 2405 is a hole in this plate, where the cable runs through. The crossover is mounteg directly in the cable. Mounting for the 2405 is 25 mm MDF, coloured same as the 2360. It is cut out with a CNC machine, so that you can stick the 2405 for behind in it and it fits exactly. The sound is amazing..... the 2405 runs in phase and the 2360 is converted about 180 degree. I'm now playing a little bit with the crossover, but I've no measurement and not the real background in constructing crossovers. Hopefully waiting for new ideas and information........

Greetings Guido

hjames
12-28-2009, 05:12 AM
Thanks for the pictures and information -
That looks so cool and amazing!
:applaud:

jerv
12-28-2009, 07:26 AM
Hi, Aktivkampi -

thanks very much for pictures and info! Very helpful, and all looking extremely cool :) :applaud:

I'm in the middle of a similar project: with the 2445J driver / 2360 horns as centerpiece. Right now I am fiddling with tweeter integration, and trying out both the 2404H and the 2405 in different mounts and crossover configurations. Also trying out different bass/mid units: the 2204, the 2226 and the E130. Nothing decided yet, but all is gradually coming togehter.

Don Mascali
12-28-2009, 01:46 PM
jerv,

Please keep us posted as you go, I'm thinking of something similar for my next project.

demon
01-01-2010, 04:28 PM
hello aktivkampi!

your system looks extremly nice, really gives a high-end gloss to the (plausible guess>) high-end sound.
(i saved the pictures to my harddrive, i hope thats ok)

ive used the 22o6 to at nearly the same frequencies as you, and i find it a wonderful driver with lots of snap (i love snap). it very well may be the perfect driver for this application, considering the size vs output vs bandwidth in order to fit the wonderful 236o. small cluster, big impact! :applaud:

with passive networks i cant help you, but i can recommend you to get a digital crossover at least temporay to try things out more easy. costs some money, but saves years of soldering! and you can get back to passive anytime once you found the perfect xo.
if you want me to try things out with my related setup (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=274396#post274396) for you, id be happy to help out.

cheers from vienna
mikey

aktivkampi
01-04-2010, 11:11 PM
Hi Demon,

thank you for your positive feedback, I also thought of buying a digital crossover (behringer dcx 2496). I think it's the same model as you use. I'll let you know when the behringer arrives, maby you'll have some good tips for me......

Greetings Guido

(the man who visited Vienna two weeks ago and I must say, it's very very nice city..... and I love "große Braune"):)

mikeharris
01-07-2010, 06:57 AM
I believe no passive network can compensate for the 2 some odd feet between the Mid & VHF drivers...integration with that big bi-radial isnt going to be easy...tho it sure looks good.
Try the Behringer...tho we prefer XTA

Eaulive
01-07-2010, 07:10 AM
I believe no passive network can compensate for the 2 some odd feet between the Mid & VHF drivers...integration with that big bi-radial isnt going to be easy...tho it sure looks good.
Try the Behringer...tho we prefer XTA

I'm used to the DBX driverack, but as long as the job is done, it's all good... and I'm in love with the horns! :applaud:

I agree that this will be hard to do with a passive crossover due to the long delays involved.

mikeharris
01-08-2010, 06:37 AM
The DBX is a step up from Behringer...I think the BiRadial evolved as a two way solution...and integration of the vhf was not a priority

demon
01-09-2010, 10:03 PM
well, behringerpolicy is not to be better, but cheaper then the others wich they copy.
if you never used an active crossover, im sure you want to know that it can be noisy (constant noise) as hell with ultra-efficient horns/drivers like the 236o IF you get the volume changed BEFORE the signal hits the crossover. because even if there is just little noise out of the crossover, the amps boost this according to their gain-factor, and goin into 118dB@1m@1W even some miliwatt of constant noise can be quite audible.
if you have, on the other side, a six-channel volume control AFTER the crossover (like for example a multichannel (pre)amp) you will never experience noticable noise coming out of the crossover because its way more padded down (usually), leaving the amps not mistaken noise for signal.
but then its great, because you can use a bit-true 24/96 digital signal to go into the DCX, giving you more dynamics (and it sounds better to my ears). AES3 standard but the DCX works -mostly- with SPDIF too.

the active-XO-horn-guys im connected with around here all share this problem, and many of them simply use the DCX with a multichannel-amp.
oh yeah, you would need an amp for every way, 6X mono after the behringer. cables can cost something too, if you have to get a bunch of them like you would.
and, oh yeah, i see your system has four ways that means you would actually need TWO behringer DCX.
there might be a better crossover out there!

sounds complicated, IS complicated. i can still recommend it...

cheers,
mikey


ps: "grosse braune" are doubled espressi with a shot of milk. i love them too :) only without the milk..!

JBL 4645
04-03-2011, 03:26 AM
Hello to everyone......

Just finished my project, now I'll post some pictures. Hope you'll like it.:) Now I'll do some experiments with the passive filtersection between the 2360 and the 2405. I'm thankful for any advice, specially for passive EQ for the 2360 and the 2440....:banghead:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=43362&stc=1&d=1261763481

Merry Cristmas to all

greetings Aktivkampi

:applaud:
Wow I like the colour, what is it copper colour spray paint?
It surely makes it look different from the ugly black the reason its black is that it won’t be seen though the screen or prevent the projection light reflecting onto bright objects behind the cinema screen.