Four way disco system with huge basshorn

[Ruediger]

Here comes a system which was built in the early 80s in Limburg (Germany). The place was called "Why not". Their old system consisted of Bose 901s and Bose amplifiers.

The new system was 4-way all horn loaded with a large mono sub bass horn.

The outer walls of the bass horn and the big wedge were made from bricks, the inner part was made from wood. It was 2,4 mtr wide, 1,80 mtr deep and 1,10 mtr high. It was driven by two E155 and one of the Bose amps. First we tried to save money and tried EV 18" drivers. They lasted just two or three days, then we bought the JBLs.

The lower midrange horns operated from 150 Hz to 800 Hz, drivers were E130, and they were also driven by one of the Bose amps.

Upper midrange was a 2441 with a 2395 horn/lens, and the tweeters were 2405. Crossover frequency was ca. 8 kHz, and we bought Yamaha amps for mids and higs.

Later we added a dbx subharmonic synthesizer (boom box) which really sounded great.

That was quite a funny time :)

[Eaulive]

Cool!
Midbass horns with E130... talk about loud!

[Don Mascali]

I bet most of the people in that picture are wearing hearing aids today. :blink:

[Eaulive]

I bet most of the people in that picture are wearing hearing aids today. :blink:

With that 2395 lens a couple of inches from their ears... you bet! :p

[louped garouv]

pretty cool!

any info on the DJ booth equipment?

thanks!

[4345]

The lens looks odd shaped. May not be JBL. I think RCF made a lot of lenses that copied JBL at the time.

[Allanvh5150]

They certainly look like the 2395's that I used to have way back when....

[JBL 4645]

I bet most of the people in that picture are wearing hearing aids today. :blink:

:rotfl:
When you consider just how close those speakers are to their heads! Lethal range!

What is the sensitivity of the HF horns and their maximum SPL?

[Allanvh5150]

:rotfl:
What is the sensitivity of the HF horns and their maximum SPL?

At that proximity it is quite irrelivant!

[JBL 4645]

At that proximity it is quite irrelivant!

Yeah, yeah I have to agree with you, on that. I’d guess anything over 100dba at constant level = buggered up ears! :(

Could that disco be held liable for health and safety for excessive db levels?

[Ruediger]

The lens is an orignal JBL 2395. I installed it myself.

The booth equipment was kept from the previous installation. The mixer was a Klein + Hummel (I think), and the turntables were Thorens.

The sound was radiated over the peoples heads, not straight into their ears. The 2395 radiates alongside the horn's axis, not downwards alongside the plates.

Sure the system could play loud, but most of the time the level was moderate.

Ruediger

[4343]

The lens looks odd shaped. May not be JBL. I think RCF made a lot of lenses that copied JBL at the time.

Along with DAS, who made a serpentine version. I used to see 2395's mounted just that way in clubs here in the Bay Area.

I also sketched a 130 front horn something like that back in high school. I was really surprised when the front office approved my idea to purchase two K-130's! I was able to build the compression chambers in wood shop, (about 1 cubic foot) but the horn was never built. We used them all over the place as they were. They really outdid the little lid speakers that came with the reel-to-reel we used back then!

[Eaulive]

The 2395 radiates alongside the horn's axis, not downwards alongside the plates.

Ruediger

On this you are right! :applaud:

[Horn Savant]

Your club has the right idea now.

Though most modern schlagermusik doesn't need - and shouldn't use - the sub harmonic synthesizer

I listen to Sunshine-live.de on my 4-way all-hornlautsprecher system (low to moderate level)- it's the perfect complement for today's Elecktronische schlager tanzmusik

[Ruediger]

And now for something completely different ...

The Jara disco in Dortmund started with 4530 scoops, 2390 horns & lenses driven by 2441s and several 2402 arranged like in Richard Long's Z-Arrays.

At that time no decent basshorns were available in Europe, just Martin Bins which were not really "sub". The owner wanted a horn about the size of RLA's Bertha, and I suggested to build two smaller horns which combined would come close to the Bertha.

I designed a bass horn for a single 15" driver, 70 cm high, 112 cm wide, and 164 cm deep. For midbass from 150 Hz to 800 Hz I designed the horns which You can also see in the 1st posting (in this thread).

The guy who builds the horns is a carpenter, and the guy with the curly hair and the cigarette in his fingers is me. My hair is gone in the meantime, and I don't smoke any more :)

Of the bracing, 50% are needed for stability, and 50% are for a "heavy" appearance.

Later a dbx subharmonic synthesizer was added. Also they had a 3bx dynamic range enhancer. Amplifiers were BGW.

The music in these days was funk, Johnny Guitar Watson, Disco Miss Frisco! I am getting sentimental :)

Ruediger

[Ruediger]

more pics

[Ruediger]

last pics

[Eaulive]

Cool thanks!
I enjoy this kind of stuff :applaud:

[Don Mascali]

Thank you very much for the pics, they are great,

I built a some Electro Voice folded horns back in the day. They didn't go too low but they would knock you over @ 50HZ on the dance floor.

[carolus]

hi reudiger,
I like your practical-building-knowledge for "horns", and smell the dust-wood with a (high-end) cloodlet glue-perfume ....
good job to for the lowbas (look-a-like : la scala) and the consolidation for the side walls .....
nice work,
did you built recently "other" concept horns!
allé, salukes and vriendelijke muzikale groeten,
karel

[Ruediger]

Hi Karel,

I designed several horns when I was a student, and I once owned a self-designed pair of k-horns. I did two rearloading designs with the speaker in the middle of the cabinet and the horn split into two paths. One was published in Elrad magazine. I still have a copy and could scan that.

Currently I don't have the space for "real" horns, I have some 4430 clones. I am collecting horns and drivers for the "ultimate" 7.1 system. But that will take some time.

Regards Ruediger

[carolus]

....published in Elrad magazine ....

abend ruediger,
You walk a "long-horn-way" ... chappeau bas,
Fmy, can i have a scan from yours self designed K-horns (just for my audio-horn-info),
Btw, since '68 ... i listen and built (my) K-horn (Pat IV) and others horns (for fam & friends),
What you mean by "ultimate 7.1", it's take you (every second), but: it's coming,
Allez, salukes and welcome,
karel

[jcrobso]

Hi Karel,

I designed several horns when I was a student, and I once owned a self-designed pair of k-horns. I did two rearloading designs with the speaker in the middle of the cabinet and the horn split into two paths. One was published in Elrad magazine. I still have a copy and could scan that.

Currently I don't have the space for "real" horns, I have some 4430 clones. I am collecting horns and drivers for the "ultimate" 7.1 system. But that will take some time.

Regards Ruediger
I have built a pair of JBL C40 rear loading horns and a pair of "K" horns.
Many years ago I was a theater that Klipsch speakers, the bass K horn looked very similar to the one made.

[Ruediger]

I do not have the drawings of the k-horns any more. I have a picture, that is all.

The design was simple, a 40 Hz (I think) exponential flare and reflectors in the horn bends (where Klipsch doesn't have them).

Klipsch uses a mix of flares (100 Hz in the 1st part) and calls that a "rubber throat". Olson in his book "Acoustical Engineering" on page 114 calculates "a horn consisting of manifold exponential sections" and plots it's throat radiation impedance.

D.B.Keele has written a paper about how to predict a loudspeaker's behaviour in a horn from it's Thiele Small parameters. The Klipsch drivers are crap and require a horn where the throat radiation resistance rises with frequency. If You use a non-crappy driver then You don't need that "rubber throat".

I used RCF L15P100A which were K130 clones. The midrange horn was a copy of EV SM120A (the Sentry III horn), the driver was a RCF TW 101. The tweeter was an HH bullet tweeter.

My amp was a small SONY receiver with 2 x 18 watts (You can see it on the picture). Because of the high efficiency of the horn system I could not listen to music in the evening without either disturbing my neigbours or turning the volume so low that only one wiper of the stereo poti was on the carbon track. But the receiver had a switchable connection between preamp and power amp. So I soldered myself a voltage divider to lower the preamp's output voltage.

Ruediger

[jcrobso]

I do not have the drawings of the k-horns any more. I have a picture, that is all.

The design was simple, a 40 Hz (I think) exponential flare and reflectors in the horn bends (where Klipsch doesn't have them).

Klipsch uses a mix of flares (100 Hz in the 1st part) and calls that a "rubber throat". Olson in his book "Acoustical Engineering" on page 114 calculates "a horn consisting of manifold exponential sections" and plots it's throat radiation impedance.

D.B.Keele has written a paper about how to predict a loudspeaker's behaviour in a horn from it's Thiele Small parameters. The Klipsch drivers are crap and require a horn where the throat radiation resistance rises with frequency. If You use a non-crappy driver then You don't need that "rubber throat".

I used RCF L15P100A which were K130 clones. The midrange horn was a copy of EV SM120A (the Sentry III horn), the driver was a RCF TW 101. The tweeter was an HH bullet tweeter.

My amp was a small SONY receiver with 2 x 18 watts (You can see it on the picture). Because of the high efficiency of the horn system I could not listen to music in the evening without either disturbing my neigbours or turning the volume so low that only one wiper of the stereo poti was on the carbon track. But the receiver had a switchable connection between preamp and power amp. So I soldered myself a voltage divider to lower the preamp's output voltage.

Ruediger

My friend and used a set of plans we bought from Speakerlab back in the early 1980s.

[Ruediger]

The submarine series of bass horns!

After some time the Jara discotheque needed to be renovated. For live concerts a stage was needed, and that was also used as the dance floor.

The midrange horns should go into the two corners of the dance floor, and the bass horns should go below. Just the horn mouth should be visible. So into both corners two bass horns were built, at both sides of the midrange horns.

The sketch shows how "access to the driver chamber" was solved. On the 2nd pic the driver chambers are open, on the 3rd pic they are closed. As You can see the 2390 have been replaced by 2395.

Ruediger

[Ruediger]

Here are two very similar rearloading horns. They work like the scoop 4530 but have a horn split into two halfs. The horn is narrower at the bends which results in a much more precise bass. A scoop may be good for reggae but it does not really give punch. These horns do.

The pictures are awful. Without the help of Gimp they would even look worse.

The 1st two pics show horn number one. It measures 135 cm x 80 cm x 60 cm. The second pic shows horn number two. It measures 102 cm x 80 cm x 60 cm.

The drawings belong to horn number two.

Ruediger

[Ruediger]

Here come the drawings.

[Eaulive]

A scoop may be good for reggae but it does not really give punch. These horns do.

Strange, I was always under the impression that the exact opposite was true.
Rear loaded horns scoops like the 4530 and 4520 were punchy when front loaded horns bass bins were more sloppy and boomy.

[Ruediger]

Hi Eaulife,

these horns are rearloaded, not frontloaded. They are very similar to the scoops, just the horn is split to get the bends narrower. Also the chamber between driver and horn is precisely defined.

Regards Ruediger

[Eaulive]

Hi Eaulife,

these horns are rearloaded, not frontloaded. They are very similar to the scoops, just the horn is split to get the bends narrower. Also the chamber between driver and horn is precisely defined.

Regards Ruediger

That's exactly what I'm saying.

[Ruediger]

Hi Eaulive,

by "scoop" the shape of the last part of the horn is meant, it looks like a big spoon, or like the tool of an excavator.

"Scoop" does not mean rear- or frontloaded. In Germany we say "Rutsche" for a scoop (speaker), that means "slide" (for children).

Regards Ruediger

[Eaulive]

Hi Eaulive,

by "scoop" the shape of the last part of the horn is meant, it looks like a big spoon, or like the tool of an excavator.

"Scoop" does not mean rear- or frontloaded. In Germany we say "Rutsche" for a scoop (speaker), that means "slide" (for children).

Regards Ruediger

Ok, get it.
Usually in N.A we use the term "scoop" for rear loaded horns like the 4520, 4530 and all it's derivatives, and there's a lot :)

At some point many people built their own version of the "scoops", I've seen them with single 12" and some others with dual 18", all rear loaded with different flavors.
In french we call them "toboggan"

The front loaded horns are more often called "bass bins", like the JBL 6118, Cerwin-Vega L36 or the W-horn that a lot of companies made, Martin, Turbosound, etc.

[Horn Savant]

What kind of driver rear enclosure for latest 'huge' basshorn in first post? Tuned? Sealed?

[Ruediger]

Hi Horn Savant,

driver enclosures are sealed.

Ruediger

[Horn Savant]

,

driver enclosures are sealed.

Ruediger

Like the Avantegarde Bass Hornlautsprechersysteme - they use sealed & active EQ'd drivers. By stacking Basshorn modules mouth area is increased & cut-off lowered (like in a multicell horn)(cut-off= sum of cells)
http://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/hornlautsprecher_einleitung.php?produkt=basshorn&produkt_id=6