the China debate... [Archive] - Lansing Heritage Forums

Mr. Widget

11-02-2009, 11:39 PM

Unfortunately Mr Widget...Don't be daft.

We aren't talking about lead tainted toys, melamine in the milk, toxic toothpaste, radioactive steel, etc... we were talking about how they CAN make loudspeaker drivers that can and sometimes do rival those from Europe, Japan, and the US.

Virtually all of the shortcomings that we so frequently hear about are due to management cutting corners to make an extra buck, we have similar problems here as well, but fortunately our government tends to ride shotgun far better than the Chinese government does... I imagine they will improve in this regard too as their economy grows and their capitalistic society matures.

On a side note, a few years ago I was building industrial prototypes for companies like HP, Dell, and Nike. When we started making prototypes like this one and we were asked to print this on them, I knew our days of producing prototypes for these multinational companies were numbered. :banghead:

Widget
.

timc

11-03-2009, 03:05 AM

I don't believe that poor quality has anything to do with where things are made anymore.

PRC can make very high quality if the want. There are some really crappy product comming out of other countries as well. The reason we hear about PRC often is because so much is made there these days.

-Tim

Robh3606

11-03-2009, 04:45 AM

I don't believe that poor quality has anything to do with where things are made anymore.

So true. Many of the factories set-up in China are new and they are using SOTA surface mount assembly lines. Everything is palletized and automated. The idea is to increase volume and get the "person" out of the process. The less hands on the better, the more automated the more consistent the workmanship is.

The days of line after line of hand solderers are long gone. All you need are a dozen or so skilled workers and you are good to go. The companies going over there are more than happy to train them with their lower labor rates.

Rob:)

Maron Horonzakz

11-03-2009, 08:22 AM

Sood the lower labor rates will be over here.

louped garouv

11-03-2009, 09:19 AM

when it comes to precision, it has to do with modern methods of manufacture. From what I have measured and anecdotally from the people in the industry that I have talked with, everyone's speakers are more precisely matched than those of yore. The days of hand machined parts that needed to be carefully matched and balanced are gone.... there is no longer a need for this:

that's basically what my thoughts tend to go....

that is, unless some one wants a local craftsman to hand make assemblies, which i am sure is likely available in the far east also...
as it is here....

generally it's not what you want, but rather how much you can pay that seems to be the limiting factor, in most cases...

i guess it's the same the world over, for the most part...

Mr. Widget

11-03-2009, 09:33 AM

The days of line after line of hand solderers are long gone. All you need are a dozen or so skilled workers and you are good to go. The companies going over there are more than happy to train them with their lower labor rates.To me that is the irony of this whole thing... if companies moved their manufacturing to China due to low labor costs, only to reduce the labor force by automation.... that doesn't really seem to add up to such a great savings.

I think we have to figure in their lack of governmental oversight which allows them to pollute the hell out of their country (which will ultimately be our problem too) both in the construction of those factories and in the production of the products they are making.

With luck higher fuel costs will slow the process down and we will all consume less and the countries producing goods that do less harm to the planet will be economically at less of a disadvantage.

Widget

4313B

11-03-2009, 10:10 AM

I think we have to figure in their lack of governmental oversight which allows them to pollute the hell out of their country (which will ultimately be our problem too) both in the construction of those factories and in the production of the products they are making.And people wonder why there has to be organized labor. :rotfl:

This company (that isn't in China) didn't get the memo about exploiting children:

US blueberry farms accused of using children as pickers (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-blueberry-farms-accused-of-using--children-as-pickers-1813193.html)

I'm sure by now we've all seen the documentaries on China with respect to their appalling labor conditions. They remind me of the United States in previous centuries. People actually had to be told (and often violently) not to own slaves, not to exploit women and children, not to pollute the hell out of their surroundings, etc. etc.

louped garouv

11-03-2009, 10:12 AM

we used to pick fruit for local farms when we were kids....

good times; think the farmers may have lost out, as we almost always ate our weight in berries too...

at least it seemed that way

:)

SEAWOLF97

11-03-2009, 10:20 AM

"Made in Japan" at one time had the same negative connotation as "Made in China" now has. They turned it around , largely with the help from William Edwards Deming ...there is now an annual quality award in Japan called the "Deming Award"

_________________________________________________

I recently talked to someone "in the know" who told me that Chinese workers are now considered "squeaky" ...they are asking for better wages and working conditions.....many ubber profit companies are re-considering China based plants and are moving on to Vietnam where workers are better educated and not yet "squeaky" ...Intel is building a huge chip fab near HCMC ..

http://www.intel.com/jobs/Vietnam/

and high tech usually follows Intel ...just saw a Pentax DSLR from VN ,,,Japanese companies are buying up the property there, not in China.

http://www.eetasia.com/ART_8800475456_480300_NT_f41e9fb5.HTM

The Intel Corp. executive overseeing the company's manufacturing (http://www.eetasia.com/ART_8800474302_480200_NT_3aba4848.HTM) operations in Vietnam said its planned $1 billion facility here is on track to begin production in 2009. The facility is set to be the crowning jewel in Intel's already mammoth assembly (http://www.eetasia.com/ART_8800401012_765245_NT_28462755.HTM) and test network.
Rick Howarth, general manager of Intel Products Vietnam, told EE Times that construction on the company's 500,000-square-foot facility in the Saigon Hi-Tech Park would begin in December, and was targeted for completion by mid-2009. Volume production is expected to begin September 2009 with a contingent of 500 engineers, rising to around 1,000 by the end of the year.
4,000 jobs
Howarth said it would take approximately three years for Intel to fully ramp up the plant, which will have a capacity of 600 million chipsets annually and employ up to 4,000 people.
Though it will be almost two years until the plant is up and running, Intel is hardly sitting idle. The firm broke ground in March on an office near the factory site, and has been busy readying the infrastructure and engineering resources to support its massive project in this emerging market.

a very interesting read about Deming

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

William Edwards Deming (October 14, 1900 – December 20, 1993) was an American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) statistician (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistician), professor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professor), author (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Author), lecturer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lecturer), and consultant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consultant). Deming is widely credited with improving production in the United States during the Cold War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_War), although he is perhaps best known for his work in Japan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan). There, from 1950 onward he taught top management how to improve design (and thus service), product quality, testing and sales (the last through global markets)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming#cite_note-lecture-0) through various methods, including the application of statistical methods.
Deming made a significant contribution to Japan's later reputation for innovative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innovative) high-quality products and its economic power. He is regarded as having had more impact upon Japanese manufacturing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing) and business (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business) than any other individual not of Japanese heritage. Despite being considered something of a hero in Japan, he was only just beginning to win widespread recognition in the U.S. at the time of his death. [2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming#cite_note-America-1)

Dr. Deming: The American Who Taught the Japanese About Quality

http://www.amazon.com/Dr-Deming-American-Japanese-Quality/dp/0671746219

Urges statistician and quality-control expert Deming, "Don't blame the Japanese" for the U.S. trade deficit--"we did it to ourselves." According to Aguayo, Deming is largely responsible for Japan's industrial revolution, though he is little known in the U.S. Here addressing America's corporate leadership, the author--a former bank executive who studied with Deming at New York University--contends persuasively that Deming's advice is savvy, current, even indispensable: American management practices must change, renouncing goals of immediate profit in favor of long-term quality. Aguayo expounds on the leadership training techniques and specific steps that would likely trigger lower costs, increased productivity, larger market share and profits, along with more jobs and higher standards of living for all.

Mr. Widget

11-03-2009, 10:32 AM

Dr. Deming: The American Who Taught the Japanese About Quality.It would seem we need a new Dr. Demming.

Sure a handful of us here in the US and around the world appreciate the quality of these vintage JBL and Altec speakers... but most Americans accept the quality of inferior Bose and even Bose competing products from JBL and others.

Widget

4313B

11-03-2009, 10:32 AM

many ubber profit companies are re-considering China based plants and are moving on to Vietnam where workers are better educated and not yet "squeaky"Hogwash. Better education means greater resistance to exploitation. Eventually there will be nowhere left for these companies to run. :rotfl:

Globalize Organized Labor for the Win! :applaud:

4313B

11-03-2009, 10:36 AM

It would seem we need a new Dr. Demming.

Sure a handful of us here in the US and around the world appreciate the quality of these vintage JBL and Altec speakers... but most Americans accept the quality of inferior Bose and even Bose competing products from JBL and others.That's because we all have a TON of stuff to buy and only so much cash to buy it all with. We have to cut corners somewhere. Quantity over quality.

Mr. Widget

11-03-2009, 10:36 AM

Globalize Organized Labor for the Win! :applaud:Unfortunately Organized Labor has not been run by saints either... some exploit their members and others have created working situations that were untenable.

Common sense just isn't all that common.

Widget

4313B

11-03-2009, 10:41 AM

Common sense just isn't all that common.That's a fact!

Unfortunately Organized Labor has not been run by saints either... some exploit their members and others have created working situations that were untenable.Yep, like I said, if there's a way for someone to exploit something they're going to do it. I'd rather have the unions than not though. Kind of like I'd rather have the Judicial and Legislative branches in addition to the Executive Branch than not. They are all oddly pathetic but they keep each other somewhat legitimate.

BTW - Are you voting today? :)

Robh3606

11-03-2009, 10:42 AM

To me that is the irony of this whole thing... if companies moved their manufacturing to China due to low labor costs, only to reduce the labor force by automation.... that doesn't really seem to add up to such a great savings.

It's not only about Labor it's access to a huge market as well. As far as people it depends exactly where you are in the manufacturing cycle. But don't kid yourself, just because labor is cheap, don't expect the companies investing there to go backwards. The entire industry is going that way and in the long run it's cheaper to operate there.

Many people seem to have the misconception of sweet shops with hundreds of people jammed in them. It's not that way in the Free Trade Zones. We have a factory in one of them. I went to help prepare them for their ISO Certification and took a couple of factory tours in the Free Trade Zone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_trade_zone

In electronics it's all modern equipment with modern assembly techniques in clean and new buildings, not some dusty 100 year old wharehouses. Those factories ideally should have all been built here but they were not. Jobs lost all over the spectrum through constuction and long term with the factory workers.

There are some aspects where there are many people used such as the hand assembly of the completed PCB assemblies and modules into housings and cases but the "Reliability" is in the PCB assembly process and thats where the real money is invested in capital equipment. The point is that the key components are assembled using the same techniques as here and many times in newer and more modern facillities.

Rob:)

Mr. Widget

11-03-2009, 10:44 AM

That's because we all have a TON of stuff to buy and only so much cash to buy it all with. We have to cut corners somewhere. Quantity over quality.That gets back to the cost of transportation... when oil becomes priced appropriately our consumption will reduce. This will be a net win for all of us. OK, the Walmart stockholders might take a loss, but then they will short sell and make a bundle anyway.

We also need to regulate the fuel that international shipping uses... the low grade bunker fuel that these huge container ships burn is remarkably foul... letting these monstrously huge vessels burn this extremely polluting fuel undoes many of the advances we have made with our cars.

Widget

SEAWOLF97

11-03-2009, 10:51 AM

Eventually there will be nowhere left for these companies to run. :rotfl:

absolutely true..one of our local companies -Nike- is one of the worst offenders ..they switch COO's often , always going to where labor is cheapest ...expect them in Borneo soon, paying workers with dead rodents.

In electronics it's all modern equipment with modern assembly techniques in clean and new buildings, not some dusty 100 year old wharehouses. Those factories ideally should have all been built here but they were not. Jobs lost all over the spectrum through constuction and long term with the factory workers.
Rob:)

and I'd guess those factories can be disassembled and moved ...the way the US & USSR did to German factories after WW2.

That gets back to the cost of transportation...
Widget

60 Minutes did a segment on TV set production in the US ....parts are made here .....assembled in Mexico....sent back here for sale ..they claimed that even adding in transportation costs....it was cheaper than assembling here.

Hogwash. Better education means greater resistance to exploitation.

Not always true....when you are feeding a family or lusting after a new Honda ....they will accept exploitation "the ends justify the means" sometimes in other cultures....

It would seem we need a new Dr. Demming.
Widget

If you read the Wiki article.....Demming was under appreciated in the US ...tho Ford (the only profitable US carmaker) did use his services

Mr. Widget

11-03-2009, 10:58 AM

It's not only about Labor it's access to a huge market as well. Interestingly we (America) are handing the keys to the kingdom off to China much as Great Britain did to us almost a century ago.

Short of some sort of world cataclysmic event, natural or man made, I think it is quite safe to say China will soon become the next economic super power... we are accelerating what might be a natural progression because many here and a few in Europe are profiting handsomely by doing so. I am not making a value judgement, just stating what I see happening. As an American, I do find it disappointing however, because it will negatively affect the standard of living in this country for the middle class.

As to how China rules with it's economic might, time will tell... I think they are still learning. Right now they are like a child grabbing up all of the toys on the playground.

Widget

Robh3606

11-03-2009, 11:02 AM

right now they are like a child grabbing up all of the toys on the playground.

Or at Walmart

Rob:)

4313B

11-03-2009, 11:16 AM

I think it is quite safe to say China will soon become the next economic super power...I honestly don't see how that is possible...

We have a factory in one of them.Um, no you don't. The Chinese Government does. Seriously...

The company I work for also thinks it has facilities in China. :rotfl:

SEAWOLF97

11-03-2009, 11:30 AM

I honestly don't see how that is possible...
Um, no you don't. The Chinese Government does. Seriously...

The company I work for also thinks it has facilities in China. :rotfl:

Many of the Communist governments is Asia operate the same way...

NOBODY owns land (xcept govt).....you sign a 99 yr. lease of the land from the government ....when you sell, you are selling the lease.

lease revocations are not unheard of...

Akira

11-03-2009, 11:58 AM

When it comes to design, and innovative manufacture of precise specialty, items where the demand is a small niche market, America still rules.
The Asians, especially Japan are unbeatable with mass produced goods, but what seems to be missing are the small to midsized companies who rely on high tech niche products. The key here is "innovative design" backed up by precision manufacturing.

The high tech archery market where new developments happen every couple of years, is 90% American. China has flooded the market with great $150. bows, but cannot produce this...

Made in Marion, Michigan USA

p.s. the millions of arrows sold each year are dirt cheap (mass produced in Korea)

mikebake

11-03-2009, 12:29 PM

BTW - Are you voting today? :)
I am.
http://shawneetownship.com/candidates.html

BMWCCA

11-03-2009, 01:00 PM

BTW - Are you voting today? :)I'm getting ready to go cast my ballot, too. Though I'm afraid I'm supporting an underdog. :(

robertbartsch

11-03-2009, 01:47 PM

As a CPA in public practice for +30 years, I'm not surprised that no one mentioned super high taxes (income, capital gains, sales, property,etc.) as a reason to relocate to Asia.

Our system of double taxation; once at the company level and another on dividends at the investor level is very punitive and the U.S. is no longer competitive with virtually every other location worldwide.

I've been to Asia on business 36 times. I believe today, profits from businesses located in communist China cannot be repatriated out without communist approval.

hjames

11-03-2009, 02:47 PM

I'm getting ready to go cast my ballot, too.
Though I'm afraid I'm supporting an underdog. :(

Yes, but that Underdog will appreciate the votes anyway -
Emma and I just got back from voting ...
and, who knows, mebbe the other guy won't win?

SEAWOLF97

11-03-2009, 03:50 PM

the PRC companies must be flush with cash ..they are buying Volvo

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5h6Na2-38mIbc-GBvNfKZ9rvQLDzwD9BK2DSO0

duaneage

11-08-2009, 05:09 PM

You need look no farther than around you to see why jobs are going overseas. The taxes, litigation, benefits, Unions, regulations, costs, and all that noise compares most unfavorably with other countries who don't have these problems yet. One day they will, but that doesn't mean the US will be free from the headaches and look attractive to investment. After China and India max out the next stop will be Africa where everything is for sale and governments are pliable.

Cry all you want to the politicians, but everyone wants cheaper goods and expect prices on junk to keep dropping. Do you know anyone willing to pay 50% more for items made in the USA, even if you can convince them of better quality? Do you think this argument can stand up to quality testing and be applied across a large spectrum? Not any longer.

Find work with the government, even during the last depression the government grew rich, powerful and larger. This depression will be the same.

BMWCCA

11-08-2009, 07:00 PM

You need look no farther than around you to see why jobs are going overseas. The taxes, litigation, benefits, Unions, regulations, costs, and all that noise compares most unfavorably with other countries who don't have these problems yet.Mostly we've gotten rid of personal responsibility, but then that would be a political discussion.

Suffice it to say when you stack the deck in favor of banks and insurance companies, taking away the level playing field that allows anyone to work hard and prosper, all that's left is winning the lottery, playing the corporate game, or living destitute and complaining about it. Give everyone basic health care, don't prop up the corporations at the expense of the proletariat, toss in some fair taxation policies and let's see what happens. :dont-know

Mr. Widget

11-08-2009, 07:07 PM

You need look no farther than around you to see why jobs are going overseas. The taxes, litigation, benefits, Unions, regulations, costs, and all that noise compares most unfavorably with other countries who don't have these problems yet.

Mostly we've gotten rid of personal responsibility, but then that would be a political discussion.
:yes:

Personally I'd love to discuss how our entitlement society compares with our over tax burdened one, but that is politics pure and simple.

Verboten territory.

Widget

4313B

11-08-2009, 07:09 PM

Charles Gasparino: Three Decades of Subsidized Risk - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703363704574503404180541392.html)

Mark Spitznagel: The Man Who Predicted the Depression - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704471504574443600711779692.html)

louped garouv

11-08-2009, 07:35 PM

:yes:

Personally I'd love to discuss how our entitlement society compares with our over tax burdened one, but that is politics pure and simple.

Verboten territory.

Widget

agreed....

it's also interesting how both sides of the extreme, in fiscal terms (IME at least,)
seem to suffer equally from the "entitlement theory"

but all of you have mentioned,
we may not go there...

have a nice evening gentlemen....

off to a nocturnal dalliance, in my head....
well, after i do some chores...

Chas

11-09-2009, 06:32 AM

The US based company that I work for here in Canada built new factories in China and acquired some existing businesses there over the last 8-10 years.

In the last 6 months, they have made the decision to move some production back to our plants in the US. The cost difference no longer is much of a factor.

Mr. Widget

11-09-2009, 08:43 AM

In the last 6 months, they have made the decision to move some production back to our plants in the US. The cost difference no longer is much of a factor.I think there will be more of that in the future. Though once you've decomissioned a plant, the cost of getting one up and running back here again will slow a lot of that.

With the rising expectations of he Chinese labor force, automation, and a government run health plan over here ;) (just kidding... don't go there) the cost differentials will continue to shrink.

Widget

MikeBrewster77

11-09-2009, 12:39 PM

I work in human capital, and deal with outsourcing far more frequently than I care to admit. Luckily, in my sector, it's primarily business process outsourcing to a domestic expert, allowing the client company to focus on core competencies while leveraging the focused scope and scale of a specialist.

Nonetheless, I found this quite humorous, though sadly true:

lgvenable

11-12-2009, 08:02 PM

I can add this. I joined Alcoa this year, but came from a smaller organization which made capital coating equipment. One of the big pushes was to make the equipment in China, with the ultimate idea to make equipment modules there; and then re-assemble them in the US, with a much smaller staff.

I sat there for 4 years and watched our engineering staff cyclically go up and down (all contract). I ran the lab, where every customer came in to run their product structure with one or more of 55 coating methods. In China we couldnt find any service engineers technically qualified to support our lab work, requiring us to leave for 30 days at a time to support equipment installs in China.

Over the 4 years, I watched as folks from the US had to go to China to oversee the plant. Rampant corruption occurred, eventually getting two plant managers. The work done was 2nd rate, and full of mistakes; requiring lots of re-work (ie re-doing the work correctly).

I thought they would have another two or three years to train a native Chinese staff to US standards. I thought it was a tough sell.The average Chinese workers we used were challenged by the work, and it seemed as well as ethics and honesty.

A little involvement of the Chinese govt in dealing with corruption like they did the melamine issue (0.308 bullet in brain pan = training issue on how not to do your job) > kinda of like a removal of the offenders from the gene pool).

Chinese might be able to keep up in some areas (electronics manufacture); but lack the wider industrial infrastructure to help support industry yet.

my 2 cents...

jblsound

11-13-2009, 06:14 PM

As an American, I do find it disappointing however, because it will negatively affect the standard of living in this country for the middle class.

That would assume that there still is a middle class.
I believe the middle disappeared about 1980. Inflation was so out of control, and we've never caught up.

As a CPA in public practice for +30 years, I'm not surprised that no one mentioned super high taxes (income, capital gains, sales, property,etc.) as a reason to relocate to Asia.

Our system of double taxation; once at the company level and another on dividends at the investor level is very punitive and the U.S. is no longer competitive with virtually every other location worldwide.

I once read that GE, which was the largest company at the time, had so much tax write off that they paid less tax than the average American worker.
But the rich get richer and the middle class is now the bottom class. And most of the rich pay less in taxes, if any. Ask in places like Belize, how much American cash sits in their banks.

duaneage

11-13-2009, 08:22 PM

.........One day they will, but that doesn't mean the US will be free from the headaches and look attractive to investment. After China and India max out the next stop will be Africa where everything is for sale and governments are pliable.

Cry all you want to the politicians, but everyone wants cheaper goods and expect prices on junk to keep dropping. Do you know anyone willing to pay 50% more for items made in the USA, even if you can convince them of better quality? Do you think this argument can stand up to quality testing and be applied across a large spectrum? Not any longer.

Find work with the government, even during the last depression the government grew rich, powerful and larger. This depression will be the same.

I see that I was selectively quoted not once but twice. Maybe because it's hard to disagree with the second half of my post. It seems there is a lingering belief the rich don't pay taxes, or not what we think they should. The image of the rich fat cat smoking 100 dollar cigars on a stack of gold coins is permanently embedded in our minds. This allows for Robin Hood tax policy that makes it hard to climb out of the middle class and encourages those with money to seek shelter rather than invest.

If given a chance I would ask The One if he knows where money comes from. It ain't a printing press kids.

jblsound

11-13-2009, 08:53 PM

I see that I was selectively quoted not once but twice. Maybe because it's hard to disagree with the second half of my post. It seems there is a lingering belief the rich don't pay taxes, or not what we think they should. The image of the rich fat cat smoking 100 dollar cigars on a stack of gold coins is permanently embedded in our minds. This allows for Robin Hood tax policy that makes it hard to climb out of the middle class and encourages those with money to seek shelter rather than invest.

If given a chance I would ask The One if he knows where money comes from. It ain't a printing press kids.

Once again, there is no middle class, lost it 30 years ago. You're either the rich or the upper lower class or just plain lower class, compared to the early '70s.

Why do you think there are so many countries (Swiss, Camans, Belize, etc) that are famous for numbered accounts? Those are the places the rich stash the cash so they don't pay US taxes.
Obama is apperently now going after that stash, giving the rich a chance to come clean and avoid heavy fines. But I just read the banks in Belize have no intentions of caving in to the IRS.

lgvenable

11-13-2009, 09:22 PM

(frankly this thread should be in off topic)

at the risk of being political

the present administration is about redistribution of wealth.

They have abandoned proven policies which create jobs, rather trying to legislate and tax and spend.

My brother runs a small business. If all of the policies are instituted (health care etc); he'll have to let someone go to pay for the new policies. Kinda counter productive no?

Too bad its unpopular, but then I thought we'd learned twenty five years ago that you grow the economy and jobs by fostering policies that help small business create new jobs. Stimulate the economy> shoot in the good old USA >> just cut business taxes on the little guy; and their growth will take off.

Too many people think you can take from one class and give to another. If that had worked so well in Europe why are they all turning away > realizing that absurdly high taxes help stagnate an economy. I guess those are those cigar smoking fatcats with their money in Belize??!

I know I'm not the only one here thats old enough to remember why England couldnt build aircraft carriers anymore > healthcare costs and socialism....

and back to China

what kind of policies to stimulate our economy end up creating jobs in China??
Is that shooting our own foot?

They're not inscrutable, as they'll own most of our debt in the next ten years, and beat us by calling in the loans. Too bad they're also full of high technology, poor industrial workmanship, and corruption at every level.

jblsound

11-13-2009, 09:40 PM

We were lossing American jobs long before China came into the big show. Remember NAFTA and others like it. Most companies didn't leave the US because they were losing money, they moved to Mexico, SK, Indonesia to increase their profits 10~20 times over.
Nike is a very good example of that; move from NE paying $10/hr ~ SK @ $1/hr ~ Indonesia @ $1/day. You'll never see me wear anything Nike.

My brother runs a small business. If all of the policies are instituted (health care etc); he'll have to let someone go to pay for the new policies. Kinda counter productive no?

So to continue to make his profits, all his employees should hope they never need any medical treatment b/c of the greed of the American Medical Complex, insurance companies, drug companies, it would put them in the poor house, even though they have a job.

Ian Mackenzie

11-13-2009, 10:49 PM

I don't think it has much to do with "China". Sure they can hand paint little rubber duck faces better and cheaper than anyone, but when it comes to precision, it has to do with modern methods of manufacture. From what I have measured and anecdotally from the people in the industry that I have talked with, everyone's speakers are more precisely matched than those of yore. The days of hand machined parts that needed to be carefully matched and balanced are gone.... there is no longer a need for this:

I think this whole thread went OT after this post.

A number of loudspeaker speaker manufacturers (USA branded and others)
use OEM's in China, Thailand, South America and India to make drivers to spec. I really dont see what the problem is when you cannot source a driver made to spec locally.

MikeBrewster77

11-14-2009, 01:24 AM

Agreed this has gone off topic, but while it is, I’ll throw in my $0.02: It’s really not nearly as black and white as it appears when discussed by pundits et al.

First, there's a huge shift in household composition, marital (and other) living arrangements, etc. Most statistics sample “household" rather than "individual" income, so co-habitation as a routine arrangement, etc., impact the comparison between the current state and that of former era's, especially when you begin comparing today to previous generations where most women did not work outside of the home (single vs. dual income.)

Second, there's been a substantial shift from the former production infrastructure model to a service/knowledge-based economy. I'm not making a judgment on what the potential ramifications of losing our manufacturing base are (in fact, it actually frightens me from a defense perspective) but it is what is, and it is a reality. This has driven a substantial stratification in wages.

Additionally, unions have lost a substantial amount of traction as the federal government has implemented legislation that addresses many of the reasons unions were formed (i.e., minimum wage, scheduling restrictions, safety concerns, etc.)

The statistics are clear: The "lowest class" is actually diminishing while the "upper class" is increasing (based upon quartiles as reported by the US Census Bureau.) I wouldn't consider that a bad thing, as it represents a trend towards increased "upward social mobility."

The "middle class" in America has never been accurately delineated, and the government continues to refuse to definitively characterize it. That said, a recent Time article was particularly compelling to me; it chronicled a couple within the parameters of the "middle class" who drew a combined income of $58K, and they were building a $300K house. Really? That's not "middle class" to me ... that's making a really aggressive commitment that I would consider outside the bounds of the "true middle-class." But there's the rub - it's truly not a defined class, so you, me, and everyone else reading this thread can apply their own definition and feel OK with making a judgment on whether it's ebbing, flowing, or eroding completely.

The point is, the middle class is a moving target, so attempting to identify whether it's progressing, receding, or remaining stagnant is meaningless unless you actually define your terms. We definitely are feeling the pains as the American economy transitions from one model to another, but we went through this during the Industrial Revolution and managed to come out OK. It's history all over again, and I truly believe only time will tell whether we're f_cking ourselves completely, or transitioning to the natural evolution that will help us maintain the leadership position we've established across the globe.

That said, anyone have any recommendations on upgrading the 3113B network??? ;)

4313B

11-14-2009, 07:32 AM

I really dont see what the problem is when you cannot source a driver made to spec locally.Well, the beef at JBL is that they did make everything locally and to spec. To say that more than a few of them are livid over the trend towards outsourcing everything would be a gross understatement. That outrage is tempered by the fact that they feel fortunate to have a job right now. Of course most of those who cared are gone now so whatever.

As long as there are people who can be exploited by big business these kinds of things are going to continue to happen. As soon as there is a worldwide minimum wage and a ban on slave labor all this horseshit will come to a crashing halt. :D

That said, anyone have any recommendations on upgrading the 3113B network??? ;)I've detailed it before... In fact, I'm currently building several pairs of charge coupled 4313B networks.

Tom Brennan

11-14-2009, 07:38 AM

Lenin said something to the effect that if he were to hang The United States an American businessman would sell him the rope.

Maron Horonzakz

11-14-2009, 07:46 AM

Our Govt. would give them the rope free,,,Equal oppertunity provider.

4313B

11-14-2009, 08:05 AM

Lenin said something to the effect that if he were to hang The United States an American businessman would sell him the rope.:applaud: No doubt! :rotfl:

Ducatista47

11-14-2009, 08:41 AM

The middle class is indeed a moving target; perception is not everything but it is central to it. My greatest beef with our culture is the winner take all tradition. Without government "interference," we would be reduced to a few haves and everyone else being a have not. Our income gap in the USA is greater than in most third world nations. That the social contract has been broken is not a political statement. It is a measurable fact. This is going to be an interesting census.

Clark

Maron Horonzakz

11-14-2009, 09:07 AM

We will be a two class culture like Brazil soon enough.

jblsound

11-14-2009, 09:49 AM

MikeBrewster77]The statistics are clear: The "lowest class" is actually diminishing while the "upper class" is increasing (based upon quartiles as reported by the US Census Bureau.) I wouldn't consider that a bad thing, as it represents a trend towards increased "upward social mobility."[/COLOR]

Nothing could be further from the truth.
At this point in time, there are more millionaires and billioniares in this country than ever before.
The other side of that coin is that there are more people living in poverty than ever before, in this country.

Comparing today, to lets say, the early '70s, the average American is much worse off now. Most people in their 20s can't afford to buy a car, unless its with a 7 year loan, much less a house.
And until the housing crash, the ones that did get mortgages in this decade, should not have been qualified. Which is the reason why so many defaulted on those mortgages.

Going back to the early '70s, as only a second year apprentice, I was able to buy a new Grand Prix and a new house, in the same year. And although I was only making 70% of full union wages, my monthly house payment was still less than 25% of my monthly income.

How many home buyers in this decade can make that statement, that their current house payment is only 25%? I venture that its closer to 50%, maybe even more.

Maron Horonzakz

11-14-2009, 09:54 AM

True,,,,Good statement,,,

MikeBrewster77

11-14-2009, 11:42 AM

At this point in time, there are more millionaires and billioniares in this country than ever before.

I don't see a problem with that. In fact, I think it's a good thing that the "upper class" is increasing, which was a primary point I made in my post. And again, millionaire is not a good benchmark due to inflation, i.e., of course there are going to be more millionaires now than there were say in the 50's - a loaf of bread costs more than $0.05 these days as well.

The other side of that coin is that there are more people living in poverty than ever before, in this country.

More people - yes, you're right. The population has also increased exponentially over the years.

As a percentage, your statement that there are more people living in poverty than ever before in this country is categorically false (see below.)

Comparing today, to lets say, the early '70s, the average American is much worse off now. Most people in their 20s can't afford to buy a car, unless its with a 7 year loan
Buy used - I certainly did in my 20's.

much less a house.
Rent - I certainly did in my 20's

And until the housing crash, the ones that did get mortgages in this decade, should not have been qualified. Which is the reason why so many defaulted on those mortgages.
Now THERE'S a statement we can agree on!

Going back to the early '70s, as only a second year apprentice, I was able to buy a new Grand Prix and a new house, in the same year. And although I was only making 70% of full union wages, my monthly house payment was still less than 25% of my monthly income.

Well, my parents were married in 1971, and my father has worked the same union job for nearly 40 years, and they surely couldn't afford a new car or a mortgage throughout the 70's. So I'm certainly happy things worked out well for you during that era, but I'm not sure it's necessarily representative of the state of Americans as a whole.

Also, I'm betting you saved to be able to do that, huh? Check out the savings rate of Americans today vs. the 70's, and I think we all know how overinflated the housing market is. So is the CPI rising, or is our income falling?

The truth is, if you check the statistics, American wages have been rising steadily. BLS data unquestionably reflects this. Household income has also increased (at least in part due to the increased ratio of dual income families, but also driven by several other factors.)

It's tempting make generalized statements, but the economy and the socioeconomic status of the American population are both very complex subjects with a myriad of variables. It's far to easy (and equally myopic/inaccurate) to simply sit back and say corporate greed is screwing the middle classes. If you think corporate greed is a new development in 21st century America, and it's suddenly destroying the living standard of the country's population, I don't really know how to counter that...

jblsound

11-14-2009, 01:21 PM

I don't see a problem with that. In fact, I think it's a good thing that the "upper class" is increasing, which was a primary point I made in my post. And again, millionaire is not a good benchmark due to inflation, i.e., of course there are going to be more millionaires now than there were say in the 50's - a loaf of bread costs more than $0.05 these days as well.

More people - yes, you're right. The population has also increased exponentially over the years.

As a percentage, your statement that there are more people living in poverty than ever before in this country is categorically false (see below.)

Buy used - I certainly did in my 20's.

Rent - I certainly did in my 20's

Now THERE'S a statement we can agree on!

Well, my parents were married in 1971, and my father has worked the same union job for nearly 40 years, and they surely couldn't afford a new car or a mortgage throughout the 70's. So I'm certainly happy things worked out well for you during that era, but I'm not sure it's necessarily representative of the state of Americans as a whole.

Also, I'm betting you saved to be able to do that, huh? Check out the savings rate of Americans today vs. the 70's, and I think we all know how overinflated the housing market is. So is the CPI rising, or is our income falling?

The truth is, if you check the statistics, American wages have been rising steadily. BLS data unquestionably reflects this. Household income has also increased (at least in part due to the increased ratio of dual income families, but also driven by several other factors.)

It's tempting make generalized statements, but the economy and the socioeconomic status of the American population are both very complex subjects with a myriad of variables. It's far to easy (and equally myopic/inaccurate) to simply sit back and say corporate greed is screwing the middle classes. If you think corporate greed is a new development in 21st century America, and it's suddenly destroying the living standard of the country's population, I don't really know how to counter that...

Yes, wages have gone up during the last 30~40 years and they have also gone down. When double digit inflation hit, in the late '70s, no way was the average wage earner keeping up. Over a 5 year period, our union contract got us between $1~$1.50/hr/year and we still were losing to inflation.

Statics don't lie? Total BS.
The Feds have been lying to us for over 40 years. Back in the '60s, under Johnson, they added all full time military personel to the civilian work force, for the sake of figuring total employment. That fact lowered the % of unemployment, w/o as much as one unemployed person being hired.

And the way the unemployed is counted further lowers the numbers. If an unemployed person stops filing a claim each week, due to there being no jobs, or having run out of unemployment benefits, as many have these past two years, those still unemployed people are no longer counted in the unemployment totals.

And don't skirt the truth, by saying well, rent or buy used. That's no better than the feds adding the military to the civilian work force to serve their own purpose. That's just skewing the true facts.

And no, I didn't have to save up for either the new car or the house. I paid $300 down and my monthly car payment was $142. Likewise, I bought the house on a VA loan, no money down and a payment of only $206/m. That was less than 25% of my then monthly income.

VA loans can still be had, but b/c the cost of a house is now 10 times what it was 36 years ago, one can't afford a no down loan.

I know what I was able to do in my 20s and I know what my two kids, now both in their mid~late 20s, can't do. And that's buy a new car on a 3 year loan, and a house on a 20 year loan, and still be below 25%. That's apples to apples comparisions.

Those two monthly payments ($348), combined, wouldn't even pay rent today, much less a house mortgage.
I can't say what the numbers are in other parts of the country, but I know here, piece work prices contractors pay on housing tracts are less now, when considering inflation, than 30+ years ago.

There has always been greed, but its way out of control now. In the '70s, if you couldn't show that your income was 4 times what the monthly house payments would be, you weren't going to get the loan.

That statement certainly can't be applied to most of this decade, those greedy mortgage agents didn't care that the loans they were approving were 50% or more of the home buyer's income. They only cared about their own fat bonuses, for selling another mortgage.

Allanvh5150

11-14-2009, 02:55 PM

Sure, wages have risen but most things have risen quite a lot more. The two big ticket items, cars and houses, are somewhat different to each other, at least here in NZ. Around 1970 a average car was about one years wages and today the same is true. On the other hand, in 1970 an average house cost about one years wages and today the average house is about 10 years wages. Sure, the average car and house is way better than it was in 1970 but the prices need to be compared to how people live today. Most people are living way beyond thier means and unfortunately most goverments do the same as well. Until governments wake up and stop pouring money into bottomless pits, stop selling out to foreign manufacturers and stop printing money, nothing will change.

Allan.

Doc Mark

11-14-2009, 05:57 PM

Good Evening, Allan,

What you say rings a bell with me, Mate. I couldn't agree more. Best of luck to us all. We have created a "something for nothing society", and now, we're reaping the harvest of all that, on BOTH ends!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

lgvenable

11-15-2009, 07:06 AM

This did go left field OT quite a while ago.
But my last two cents.

So to continue to make his profits, all his employees should hope they never need any medical treatment b/c of the greed of the American Medical Complex, insurance companies, drug companies, it would put them in the poor house, even though they have a job.
Your response smacks of vilifying small business. So he has to "maintain profits" My brother (then 59) was laid off 5 years ago from a multinational company where he was an exec VP (Ethyl Corporation). He looked for 6 months and then bought an Alphagraphic's franchise. He invested his life savings and mortgaged himself to the hilt taking the huge personal risk of losing everything. It took over three years to make it profitable. He did this without losing any of the 6 employees who were with him at the start.

He also did it without cutting salaries or benefits.:applaud:

He runs a small business with 7 employees (including him), and turns a modest profit. The reality is that if he's charges 8% more per employee for taxes > well its a healthy chunk right off a bottom line which is finally black. So rather than rail, try to understand. I think small business owners are the ENGINE of job creation of almost of the all the new jobs in the US and will get hammered by these new policies.
BTW, I personally think small businesses should fairly make a profit. In my bro's case, he needs to invest in a newer Heidlelberg sheetfed press ; which will cost 100K.Does is make sense to take away a business investment like that > which will in time create new jobs (in job printing job sales and as a pressman apprentice).

Its so easy to make generic statements.Small business owners struggle to make their businesses profitable; and I applaud folks with the spirit to strike out on their own.

I respect your opinion, but detest generic non fact based assumptions which assume that a small business owners greed, and the medical establishment greed will leave his employees in some sort of servile low paying job, basically living at subsistence levels (poverty levels) . Nothing is further than the facts.

He's building a small organization where everyone is treated like family; and no one gets left behind, the same attitude he developed when serving in the military. Don't you wonder how many other small business owners find themselves behind the 8 ball of an administration casting around for ways to spend more money like a drunken soldier?

9 trillion in national debt is 9 trillion in debt! It will have to be repaid, and thats the real tragedy, as ALL of us (dems, repubs, independent) will be paying the overwhelming debt service in the years to come. It's like buying a house without ever getting to live in it
Allan is dead-on too. Sounds like me a fiscal conservative. Reduce our debt load (both personally and nationally), quit living beyond our means, and quit printing money. There are lots of things we're doing wrong. My point is if you stick a knife in the heart of your recovery engine (small business); you'll never allow an economy to grow itself out of the hole it’s in.

Doc Mark

11-15-2009, 08:25 AM

Good Morning, Larry,

Yet another, dead-on-the-money post!! Well done, well said, and makes perfect sense to me!! My Mom taught us that, if you don't have any money, you cannot AFFORD to do some of the things that you might want to do, and to work hard, save your money, and then pay for what you wanted. My Dad, on the other hand, never learned the value of hard work, savings, nor even how to handle his own check book. He told me, many times in his life, that if he had checks in his checkbook, he must have money to use!! He never understood having checks in the checkbook, WITHOUT having money in the bank, MEANS NOTHING!! So, he was over-drawn for most all of his life, had the worst credit you can imagine, and still, at the end, was sucking money off of his own, aged Mom (my Grandma), to pay for all the things that he thought he just HAD to have. Our leaders are like my Dad, sort of. They keep writing checks, when there is NO money to pay for them, then expect the rest of us to be like my Grandma, and cover their incompetent and completely out of control spending!! I'm ready for a change: Back to fiscal responsibility, and self-control in spending, both on a Governmental level, and at home, too!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

4313B

11-15-2009, 09:46 AM

Your response smacks of vilifying small business.The problem isn't small business, it's always been big business. Big business is the bane of civilization by choice. The Government has become the accomplice of big business. It's been bought.

jblsound

11-15-2009, 10:11 AM

Yes, every company has to make a profit to be able to stay in business.

But for health insurance, its usually a combo of both the employer and employees putting money into the pot.
But if the employees are only making a modest wage and the company doesn't provide a group insurance, then those employees are up the creek, if they would ever need and medical treatment.
With the current state of cost of medical care, insurance, its not likely the employees could afford to buy any insurance on their own.

These insurance companies need to be reined in, they literally get away with murder. That's why we're now seeing all these scare tactic commercials against health care reform. They, along with the drug companies, are making huge profits at everyone else's expense.

That's all I'm saying.

Ducatista47

11-15-2009, 11:08 AM

The problem isn't small business, it's always been big business. Big business is the bane of civilization by choice. The Government has become the accomplice of big business. It's been bought.

Any glance at last year's troubles will zero one in on very large firms. Years ago the common wisdom was that the USA would shake down to two or three banks. I thought, what a terrible thing that would be. Why are the federal regulators allowing this? That question has been pretty well answered. Unfortunately, a bad answer.

Now the advice to break up the huge rescued firms is being ignored. The end result will be zero change. I really think that it is a national interest rather than a political issue when a single corporation could bring the world economy down if it failed. It is like Soylent Green or the original Rollerball where one company would have each basic sector - food, finance or energy for instance.

I share the rising opinion that health care and the food supply, like defense, are too important/basic to be left to the private sector profit motive alone.

Clark

Uncle Paul

11-15-2009, 02:17 PM

I share the rising opinion that health care and the food supply, like defense, are too important/basic to be left to the private sector profit motive alone

I try to keep my involvement on this site limited solely to the joy of audio, but just this once I'll make an exception.

I know quite a bit about government provided health care. I work for the VA, and while my role is IT, I work with decision makers at the regional and national level. I travel frequently to VA facilities in the western half of the US.

I'm proud of the service we provide Veterans and we really are making improvements. However, that drive to make improvements began as a threat to either bring our standard to the level of private health care or to be replaced by it. Prior to that our agency was very complacent about the service we provided. Even now, ten years into this improvement mandate, many facilities lag far behind in the care they provide.

The biggest problem I observe is our system is with government employees we are unable to fire and that aren't being held accountable for their lack of performance. Incompetent employees, often at high level, get promoted to non-jobs to get them out of the way. They get replaced by other paper qualified incompetents and the cycle repeats itself. This is a really great system for folks who want to feel important while accomplishing little, but unfortunately makes it all that much harder to deliver quality health care to the patient. The system in government is more important than meeting the objectives of the venture.

You just don't have this problem on the outside. They simply get fired and replaced by someone who can do the job. The focus is on profits, and you don't get any unless your customer is happy and keeps coming back.

Why this means something to you is that we will be the model used for government provided health care. Many of our mid level staff and above will migrate to whatever new agency is created seeking advancement in pay grade, especially the non-jobbers.

Based on my observations in the VA, some portions of health care will be amazingly good, others will lack, and there will be inconsistencies across the board. There will be no motivation, outside of political pressure, for improvement. The overhead and associated costs will increase, not decrease, the cost of health care while the quality will decrease.

In my opinion, health care is too important, NOT to be placed in the hands of private enterprise who will do a better job at lower cost.

Doc Mark

11-15-2009, 02:21 PM

Hi, Clark,

You bring up some very worthwhile points, that definitely need to be addressed. A quick read of what our Forefathers thought about Governmental control of, say, banking, will show that they did not believe in the "one bank" system, and in fact, predicted catastrophe if we ever went down that path!! But, how do we stop that sort of thing from happening?

I believe that profit, in and of itself, is not a bad thing, and can be very good for our economy. Without businesses allowed to make a profit, incentives to do much in the way of growth and support would dry up. But, when profit becomes the ONLY motivation for any company, both large or small, then I feel that they are on the wrong path.

Sweet Bride and I have a very good friend who, along with her husband, recently spent two years in the Ukraine, teaching Ukrainians how to speak English, and something about the values of self-sufficiency. After their return to the US, our friends told us many wonderful experiences that they enjoyed working over there, and about the fine people that they met. But, they also told us that there is very little incentive to do much of anything in the way of extra effort. It was their opinion, and I value what they think, that because the population was taken care of by the Government, for many things, they had little, to no, desire to work hard, take care of themselves, or even show up at work everyday, unless they just happened to feel like it. Banks might close anytime they choose to, for what ever reason; their students might choose to stay home from class, just because they didn't feel like going that week; people who posted specific store hours very seldom paid much attention to those hours, and closed whenever they felt like it. They did this, because they could, and because they knew that they would still make the same pay, whether they honored their commitments, or not.

We have quite a few folks just like that in our society, too, unfortunately. Many of them have been on Governmental subsistance for most of the lives. Yet, they have no real incentive to end their time at the public trough. Why should they do anything more, when they can reap the benefits of other's hard work, and still get money, food, medicine, and other things that most of us have to EARN through our hard work?!

So, as I see it, and as I said, I see problems on both ends of our society. How do fix it? Go back to personal responsibility, where your word is your bond, and where hard work allows you to earn a decent wage, and live a decent life. I believe that, because we have so much "information" at our fingertips, we have become seduced by marketing in this Country, and worldwide, actually. We just HAVE to have whatever latest-greatest thing is being offered to us, and some companies will allow folks that desire such things, to get credit, when they have no qualifications that would prove their ability to pay back the "loans". We are also a throw-away society, now, or at least for many of us, that's how things are. We JBL Lovers are doing our part, in a minscule manner, by saving our speakers from the skip/bin/landfill. But, you know, if most other folks did something similar, and were not so market driven, guess what?? Bose would go out of business, JBL would be back on top in the US market, and our economy would be doing better!!! DANG, when I think of it that way, things look like they might offer a brighter future!! ;):bouncy:

OK, I'm trying just to bring a little lightheartedness into this discussion. We have serious problems in the US, and in the world. I believe that President Kennedy said it best, when he offered his "Ask not what your Country can do for you...." speech.

Let us stop looking to Government to give us all our needs, desires, and sustenance. Let us stop those who profit from the misery of others, from doing so. End "free" credit right now! Establish "workfare" over "welfare", and stop funding programs that do nothing to help make things better for our population. I am totally against offering full benefits to prison inmates, and also to illegal immigrants, for that matter. If we have the courage to go down such roads, then I think there truly is hope for the future. If we cannot make such drastic changes, then I fear for our future, not only in the US, but in the world. My three cents, for what they're worth.... Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc (who truly wishes that his Ashly 4-way crossover had been made in the good old US of A, and not in the PRC!!)

On the other side

Ducatista47

11-15-2009, 03:00 PM

Hold on, guys. I said "too important/basic to be left to the private sector profit motive alone." I believe a public option would keep things in line. Just knowing it is there would do the job.

About this - You just don't have this problem on the outside. They simply get fired and replaced by someone who can do the job. The focus is on profits, and you don't get any unless your customer is happy and keeps coming back. - the customer for health care in the USA keeps coming back because there is no other place to go. Also note that the reason why greed is cited so often as a problem is because our unregulated private sector has long ago ditched any social obligation and the model is Minimize payout/service, Maximize profits. Like everyone else, the insurance business considers employees a cost, not an asset. Except in the executive office. Everyone else is under threat of termination if they do not sell enough, and unless they pay as few claims as possible. They don't fire people for providing bad customer service, they reward those who are especially good at stalling people in need until they give up or settle for less than they paid for. That happens to be a common job description in the industry. The paperwork says otherwise, but that is what they are coached and trained to do.

I know numerous people in the insurance industry and it makes them sick what their employers will do for a buck.

Clark

lgvenable

11-15-2009, 03:02 PM

It wouldn't cost much to let insurance companies bid across state lines to create competition, or institute tort reform. Those two inexpensive reforms will help lower insurance rates better than govt control. Competition will lower prices; how many of us have watched electronics and computer prices fall due to lower manufacturing costs and competition.

My dad (a Dallas cop as I grew up); taught me one thing:don't spend more than you can pay off with your surplus salary every month. He wasn't cheap, just frugal. On a cops wages he put 3 sons through till we had engineering degrees from Purdue, UT Austin, and UT Arlington.

He taught us to have priorities and handle the money you make responsibly. I agree, some of the problem is the really large corporations who are greedy beyond belief; or immoral; like I think some insurance companies are.Think about it some of these companies tell you upfront not to admit fault; even when you are negligent, which is basically suborning perjury before the fact...immoral.

However I'm fortunate to have the chance to join Alcoa> where their core values are far different from a lot of larger companies. Try that corporate fat-cat greed stuff, and find yourself out of work. I work on food grade materials rigid packaging (beverage cans, ends and tabs)and we take that responsibility seriously.

The guys in the union (most of them); feel like they were misled in the last election > as they don't believe in the gross national overspending as has occurred.

Lately it sure feels like a lot of our politicians care more about making points and personal agendas than doing the will of the people. Think things are bad now? Wait until we suddenly have to pay more for our debt when the cheap interest rates start to run out; and a MUCH larger chunk of our national gross domestic product will have to be paid against the debt we're incurring now or default/go bankrupt; which would make the banking bubble seem like popcorn fart. I cant see how spending like this is sustainable. Here comes hyperinflation. Remember Carter era 12% interest homes?? I do; which is why I'm so anal about fiscal policy.

I'm not against universal insurance; I just don't think we should bankrupt the nation in getting it. And I don't trust the govt to do the job correctly where we're talking about 16% of our economy.

China may have many problems, but they own a serious chunk of our debt. Again I'll say, they are not as inscrutable as most of us like to kid about. Like Japan after the war, they are in the process of becoming a the worlds second largest economy. If they ever get their act together; like we did after the 2nd world war, they have some kind of scary potential.

The repubs have had many problems, but they did some things right; but forgot their core values (fiscal responsibility). The Dems have tried to do everything they EVER wanted to too fast w/o regard to the facts; and w/o regard to fiscal responsibility. I mean really > do you REALLY think they'll cut out half a trillion from Medicare? The seniors group votes the most of any demographic > If Dems do that its political suicide

I'm hoping for the conservatives and independents join together and implement a policy where everyone who agrees either does the fiscally right thing; or expect to find a new job by the next vote. I'm an independent, who everyone always want to get to vote for their side; but from now on I'm sticking to my own personal philosophy; if you are not fiscally responsible; (meaning you give the CBO all the correct facts and assumptions ) plan on losing my support and getting a new job.

One thing Clark and Doc mentioned resonates; incompetence will get promoted unless someone has a reason to excel via free market reward.

At least we've been able to have a conversation like this without flaming.

OK one last thing; JBL products and their cost was the only thing I've ever done for years where I winced at my fiscal responsibility; but then good things are never cheap. I don't have any vices, but do like great tunes and equipment like all of us on this site. Which is something all of us can agree to. Thank goodness for eBay and Craigslist, which has allowed us to save JBL heritage; even when others out there will destroy heirloom quality gear to get the bucks for drivers and destroy beautiful woodwork

hjames

11-15-2009, 03:33 PM

All I want to know is where the heck were the teabaggers when Bush/Cheney and their cronies were gutting the reserves and spending down all the cash that Clinton and his crowd had saved us??
Why weren't they raising hell in 2008 when the death spiral first appeared?

lgvenable

11-15-2009, 04:08 PM

No offense meant in anything I've said.

Personally I've been against this behavior from the start. I think the ads where firefighters or tree-loggers make quick pragmatic decisions are great. They make the point, that if we did not have so many special interests on both sides; the voice of the ordinary citizen might be heard

Too many folks blame Bush/Cheney for everything; they are history, no matter what you think of them. History will judge everyone. JFK had the Bay of Pigs, but most of us think of him warmly.

This whole mess started down a slippery slope when we tried to make everyone more eligible for home loans by loosening the lending rules in 96/97. The current yearly deficit (1.5 T USD) was run up this year while spending much more than we received in taxes.

Again, as an independent I've seen too little willingness to work across aisles; and too much circling of the wagons.Too much counter productive behavior not enough letting your deeds match your promises > from both sides.

As for tea-baggers; like the Boston forbears; ignore grass root movements at your own peril. I'm pretty sure folks who like this movements are not Nazi's; just concerned citizens from all walks and both sides.

I try to stick to flame free facts, and this is the one time I've ever posted on LH on a subject like this. Lets leave the Bush Cheney junk out of this one; as that over-hyped discourse just become too divisive.;)

Like you JBL is my passion. Last post from me all political;

I'd rather talk about the 2206 mid bass /2445J-2385A mid horns/2404J tweets for front Left, right, center, front left high, front right highs I'm building to power with the five AB systems mono-triamps I acquired this year; & the new preamp I'm acquiring to run the whole show in 9.3.

jblsound

11-15-2009, 04:14 PM

I'm not against universal insurance; I just don't think we should bankrupt the nation in getting it. And I don't trust the govt to do the job correctly where we're talking about 16% of our economy.

The current US Medical Complex sure ain't working. I mean the whole thing;
hospitals/doctors/insurance/drug industry/FDA.
Everyone of those entities are watching/covering each others back. B/C its a huge cash cow.

Most doctors only know what the drug companies tell them. Heaven forbid, they should think for themselves. Like look at alternative solutions.

Cancer treatments in this country are a total joke, they know that radiation, kemo and the like doesn't work 80% of the time. And they know it! But the $ keep filling the till.
There are cancer treatments in Germany, Mexico and other countries that have cancer treatments closer to a 80% sucess rate compared to our 80% failure rate.
Most of the people at the FDA formerly worked for the drug companies, so where do you think their loyalties lie?

I've lost count how many drugs, food additives, artifical sweetners that the FDA approved, only to have them removed from the shelves b/c they were found to cause one type of cancer or another.

The drug companies are so greedy that they tried to have all vitamins listed as drugs, so they could then sell them for 10, 20 times the price.

All of the above is the reason for our health care being in the toilet with a sky high price tag.

Doc Mark

11-15-2009, 04:26 PM

Hey, All,

Some great points, and I agree with what's been offered up here. It's not just one party that caused our problems, but all parties, period. One thing that may well help in the medical end of it, is to ban ALL advertising for drugs and medications, TOTALLY! Our local Doc is an Old Timer who doesn't believe in medicating for every little thing that comes along. He says he is bombarded on a daily basis, by his patients that ask for drugs by name because they heard "on TV" that these drugs will cure (...fill in the blank)! he hates that entire thing, but says he is in a minority when it comes to that. Many doctors just "go along", and take the easy way out, or so it seems. Remove all advertising from such things, and let the doctors decide what you need, and what you don't need, and you may well remove the over-medicating that is rampant in the US.

We need to get back to having true citizen politicians, who serve one, or two terms, then go back to the real world, just as George Washington suggested in the beginning. Get rid of the professional politicians, and hey, I'm betting our L300's that things WILL improve!! ;)

Thanks to one and all for a reasoned discussion of all this, and for covering as much ground as we have, all without rancor and nastiness!! Well done, Friends!! :applaud::applaud: Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc