How to build a home theatre around L300s

[TGK]

Hello,
I'm new and way over my head re: much of the science and engineering discussed here, but I like to think I appreciate quality and know when I need advice. So thanks in advance.

I'm the second owner of a pair of JBL L-300s that I bought in 1978. They have been and still are magnificent. With the exception of a woofer that JBL replaced a few weeks before the warranty expired (really!), they have been flawless.

Now I want to build a 5.1 home theater system around them as the front speakers. I need help to select the other speakers to work well with and complement them. I have seen several ads for L-300s listed at $4000. This is not the price ballpark I'm playing in. I know how fortunate I am to have these speakers, but I also have to work with a moderate budget. Also, advice on a receiver would be appreciated as well. Thank you.

[Chas]

I am by no means highly HT experienced, but I will relate something that happened to me. I set up a pair of 4430's for use as front L/R speakers and built my own center channel using a 175DLH and a pair of 6" woofers. For the rear I was using a pair of Camber bookshelf speakers.

Everything was fine until I tried to set up my mid level Sony ES receiver to balance all the channels. It was then that I discovered that the receiver couldn't compensate the level enough for the lack of effeciency of the rears.

Caveat emptor, try to find a close match to your L300 effeciency rating (i.e.~94-96db) for your rears. FWIW, I always thought a pair of 4425's would make nice surrounds, but I have never seen any for sale up here.

Good luck.

[jcrobso]

You need to keep the sensitivity of the speakers as close as possible.
I have JBL loaded K-horns for the front, JBL Nova L88's for the rear and JBL EC35 for the center. Fortunately my JVC receiver has the ability to handle the 10db difference between the speakers.
I don't use a sub so I have 5.0 system, the D140F loaded K-hons do a great job on the bass and I can run my surrounds full range because of the 12" woofers in the L88 Nova. I get lots of bass from all around instead of just from one place. The EC35 does a good job for the center, but I am also considering making my own center using larger JBLs. I like the idea of LE175 for the center!
My suggestion: is to get a L100 or any variation there of for the center and even do the same for surrounds.

[Mr. Widget]

Now I want to build a 5.1 home theater system around them as the front speakers. I need help to select the other speakers to work well with and complement them. I have seen several ads for L-300s listed at $4000. This is not the price ballpark I'm playing in. I know how fortunate I am to have these speakers, but I also have to work with a moderate budget. Also, advice on a receiver would be appreciated as well. Thank you.Many here, myself included, would whip up a custom center channel using parts similar to the L300s... this sort of thing isn't a trivial undertaking though and every time I start a new project, even with over 30 years of experience designing and building custom and DIY speakers, there are no guarantees that it will work out as desired.

I'd suggest you buy a proper center channel, a good receiver, and a pair of competent surrounds. My first choice in centers would be the 880 Array, but it is likely too expensive for this project, you might consider the new JBL LS Series... I've recently listened to the LS80 floor standers and am happily impressed. (More to come on this later.) In the LS Series there is an affordable center chanel that should do an admirable job of keeping up with the L30s. For surrounds, the Performance Series P520WS surrounds are quite affordable and are a bargain.

As for a receiver, I'd go with a mid level Denon or Onkyo/Integra.

I noticed, you didn't mention a sub. Personally I'd add one or two, but I suppose you could get by with the L300s at least at first.


Widget

[robertbartsch]

HT is tricky - trust me!

The center channel in a HT is probably the most important but ideally all the speakers should match or at least the sensativities should be close. Obviously, the best choice for the center would be another L300.

Since the cost of an L300 is prohibited for you, there are a few other options that you might consider.

1. I suppose you could buy a single JBL SR4725/4735 on Fleabay for under $500 and mount the components in a furniture grade cabinet.

2. Buy a single L100 or other equivalent JBL 12" system

3. Buy JBL components and build your own cab.


In one HT in my home, I bought an empty L100 cabinet and mounted a 12" 2206 and small horn with a 2425 compression driver and crossed it at 1200hz. Some minor carpentry work was necessary but the project turned out well. Cost was under $500 with used components.

[toddalin]

Center (L300 components) and sub (W15GTi) in one (split) cabinet.
http://www.largescaleonline.com/eimages/lsolpics/Team_Member_Pics/toddalin/Revised_Center.jpg

Front and rear surrounds use W10GTis with 2425Js on aftermarket butt cheeks. These are about 11 dB less efficient than the L300s (horns needed lots of padding), but my Yamaha has no problems with that. These will give real bass in a small (~1.5 cu ft) package.
http://www.largescaleonline.com/eimages/lsolpics/Team_Member_Pics/toddalin/index_009.jpg

[TGK]

Well, that's a lot to chew on. I have a question about the sub-woofer. I thought that a 5.1 receiver required five speakers in order to properly decode the content, but Mr. Widget (great handle) suggests it is optional. Even if I didn't need it for the bass, don't I need it to have the system perform as it should? The speakers, to my ears, have great bass as is, but I assumed I would be adding a sub-woofer. Thanks so much.

John

[Mr. Widget]

I have a question about the sub-woofer. I thought that a 5.1 receiver required five speakers in order to properly decode the content...All of the better surround receivers and processors have bass management that will divert the LFE information to your front two loudspeakers if you feel that they are adequate.

An argument could still be made for the addition of a sub, but a decent sub will burn through another grand... perhaps money better spent on the receiver and center channel loudspeaker.

There are actually many variables. The room, the layout of the room, the number of listener/viewers, budget... these all will skew the relative importance of the numerous variables.


Widget

[robertbartsch]

The JBL professional series cinema sound systems provide EXCELENT value; see link below.

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/General/Product.aspx?PId=71&MId=1

[jcrobso]

Most AV receivers 5.1, 7.1 etc have a line output for separate self powered sub. They only supply power for the other speakers. When I configured my AV receiver I set it up for no sub and the fronts and surrounds as large speakers and the center as a small speaker.
My room is 14'X17' the K-horns have excellent bass and take up two corners on the 14' side with the HDTV in the middle. My L88s are mounted up on the back wall behind the seating area. With two 15" speakers and two 12" speakers I have not felt the need for a sub.;)

[grumpy]

The JBL professional series cinema sound systems provide EXCELENT valueFWIW, system in link [3677] appears to be NLA, but street price was $600/ea

no approval or criticism implied or intended, just additional info.

[hjames]

I'm running a pair of JBL 4341 monitors with a Harman Kardon AVR7300 receiver I bought used.
(I run them biAmp now, but I have run them directly off the receiver).
That receiver will do stereo mode or 5.1 mode (even 7.1) depending on how I set each source, and has 125w/ch x 7 !!

When I run it in Home theatre 7.1 mode for movies or TV, I run the monitors as front left and right,
then use smaller vintage JBL L20T speakers for side and rear surround. They cost me around $120/pr.
I DID buy a nicer JBL LC2 for use as Center, and have used the system both without a sub, or with a separate JBL B380 15 vintage sub. The sub is nice to have for movies that have extra bass sounds, like action/adventure films, but you can live without it. That particular sub needed its own amp.

You'll find side and rear surround speakers aren't as critical as what you run in the front ...
I mean, its really NICE to have matched speakers all around -
but if you are on a budget, you can cut back on the cost of your surrounds.

I mean - you have the L300s - get a really nice receiver, buy a really good center speaker, and scrounge a bit for the surrounds. You can always upgrade surrounds later if you need to, right?

[toddalin]

With two 15" speakers and two 12" speakers I have not felt the need for a sub.;)


When you truley feel a sub, you will feel the need for a sub. ;)

[hjames]

When you truley feel a sub, you will feel the need for a sub. ;)

Nah, its like G-man says ... its a price-point thing.
When you truly have money to burn on a high end sub, you'll buy a sub.

Remember, the original poster said they were building on a budget!

John has 2 15s in that pair of L300s, he can always add a sub LATER.

[robertbartsch]

I was very surprised at how well a dedicated powered sub-woofer worked in a HT. Basically, IMO there is not that much super low (ULF) sonic material in DVD music sound tracks that comes into play often.

However, HT is different. I would say many if not most HT cinema sound tracks from movies contain a fair amount of sub-bass sonic material that provides life-like realisim to airline take offs, trains, buses, bombs, earthquakes, title waves, etc.

Your center channel should be your next project but in the future, if you have some free coin, you should consider a dedicated powered sub-woofer.

[jcrobso]

This is just a random sample of the speakers that are on eBay. If you could come with budget in $ that would help as there are many options.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Set-of-2-JBL-CONTROL-ONE-Monitor-Speakers-in-orig-box_W0QQitemZ230389405618QQcmdZViewItemQQptZSpeake rs_Subwoofers?hash=item35a44757b2

http://cgi.ebay.com/JBL-LX22-High-End-Bookshelf-Speakers_W0QQitemZ110445850142QQcmdZViewItemQQptZS peakers_Subwoofers?hash=item19b715ee1e

http://cgi.ebay.com/JBL-L810-Surround-Speakers-w-original-box_W0QQitemZ300358671091QQcmdZViewItemQQptZSpeake rs_Subwoofers?hash=item45eec59af3

http://cgi.ebay.com/JBL-2-WAY-G100-BOOKSHELF-LOUD-SPEAKERS-PAIR-BLACK-NEW_W0QQitemZ320437468062QQcmdZViewItemQQptZSpeake rs_Subwoofers?hash=item4a9b8fbb9e

http://cgi.ebay.com/Pair-JBL-Industrial-Series-Loudspeakers-Model-8216A_W0QQitemZ390107652699QQcmdZViewItemQQptZSpea kers_Subwoofers?hash=item5ad43a625b

http://cgi.ebay.com/JBL-Bookshelf-speakers-9x9x15H-LNC_W0QQitemZ290362192354QQcmdZViewItemQQptZSpeake rs_Subwoofers?hash=item439aef71e2

http://cgi.ebay.com/KNIGHT-JBL-KN2360-QUALITY-VINTAGE-2-WAY-SPEAKERS-MINT_W0QQitemZ150381805652QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVinta ge_Electronics_R2?hash=item2303744054

[BMWCCA]

When you truly have money to burn on a high end sub, you'll buy a sub.Sitting here listening to the 4345s wondering what a sub could possibly offer. :D

[toddalin]

Sitting here listening to the 4345s wondering what a sub could possibly offer. :D


Plenty.

All of that dedicated infrasonic stuff that you don't need in your mains muddying the sound and taking your amp power,

A lower extension that you currently get. There are subs that go down to <18 Hz at >110 dB. I know that your cabinets aren't tuned for that even if the 2245s could do it, and

The ability to place the sub where it does the most good and least bad for standing waves.

[jcrobso]

For many years I was trying to have a champagne sound system on a beer budget, I know that I'm not alone in that respect.
My system came together over several years, first the D140Fs in the home made C40 horns, with a cheep horn HF horn and Knight kit amp. Later I was able to add the LE175s and HL91 horn/lens, with home made X-over, etc.
Over time I slowly upgraded parts of the system to get it to where it is today.

When a poster uses the phrase "on a budget" I understand where they are coming from. He could sell the L300s and buy a HTIB and still have some $$ left, but that is not what is being asked. How can we put our collective knowledge of JBL speakers together and help this member build a HT system around the L300s.

[robertbartsch]

I have several full range systems using the 15" 2226 woofer, 1" 2426 compression drivers and 2405/077 slot tweeters.

In a HT setup, these units are not cabable of ULF reproduction that is possible from a dedicated 18" sub enclosed in a proper cabinet and driven with some big SS power.

In addition, the program material in a 5.1 or 7.1 system from a DVD movie, for example, directs the ULF material to the sub and not to the two mains, the center or the surround channels.

Anyone who thinks an L300 or other similar system is up to this task, should rethink their conclusion.

[4313B]

Sitting here listening to the 4345s wondering what a sub could possibly offer. :DMore boxes in your room? :blink:

Seriously though, if you need subs with 4345's then just dump the 4345's and go with some smaller really nice satellites and a couple of W1500H's or W1500H-1's.

The 4345's put out staggering very low frequencies and all they need is 1 watt to wreck your hearing if you sit in front of them too long.

[Chas]

Sitting here listening to the 4345s wondering what a sub could possibly offer. :D

Gee, I use a pair of SUB1500's below 40 Hz with my 4345's.....:o:

But then, I am not considered "normal" by most who visit and listen. :screwy::screwy::yes::thnkfast:

[BMWCCA]

More boxes in your room? :blink:
My wife takes care of that. She calls those other boxes "furniture".


Seriously though, if you need subs with 4345's then just dump the 4345's and go with some smaller really nice satellites and a couple of W1500H's or W1500H-1's.

The 4345's put out staggering very low frequencies and all they need is 1 watt to wreck your hearing if you sit in front of them too long.
My daughter loves watching the Transformer movies using the 2-channel "surround sound" 4345 living-room system. I tell her it's basically the same system she heard at the Udvar-Hazy iMax theater, just fewer of them. Sort of... :D

[Earl K]

TGK,

If you can handle diy work, check out Woody Banks' diy HT System (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5516).

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=6813&stc=1&d=1113616702

This was for sale a while back / don't know the conclusion to that , though .

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=6812&stc=1&d=1113616644

- 2204H twelves can be used instead of the 2206(s) that Woody used .
- The 2204Hs are likely a closer match ( dynamically ) to your existing L300s .
- 2426Hs ( or 2416H ) can be substitued for the 2425HS drivers mentioned .
- The OASR horn can be purchased directly from JBL Pro parts. ( This "Seuss" horn needs a screw on compression driver ) .

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=6840&stc=1&d=1113670517

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=6841&stc=1&d=1113670527
- Some food for thought .

>< cheers :)

[Mr. Widget]

Seriously though, if you need subs with 4345's then just dump the 4345's and go with some smaller really nice satellites and a couple of W1500H's or W1500H-1's.I heartily agree and would go as far as to say that in a multichannel scenario as in HT, several smaller boxes with a pair of quality subs is the superior approach... just ask TiDome. ;)

That said, this thread is about incorporating a pair of L300s. I again recommend a top flight center, adequate surrounds, and quality electronics first... then if the budget can handle it, perhaps a sub or two followed by better surrounds.


Widget

[Zilch]

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1189404

I am confident there's some JBL drivers that'll fit.... ;)

[jbl_daddy]

Even with a 4340, I found the need for a sub. The theater sucked without the support of additional subs. The solution for me was a pair of B380's powered by a Crown K2. Will shake the stuff from the bathroom counters....

[Soloford]

I echo Mr. Widget...get a good center channel, use the L300's for front left and right, and get a decent pair of speakers for the right and left surround.

I went with an Usher center channel (maybe $400) and a pair of little Usher surrounds (maybe $400 for the pair) to go with my 4343b's for front. Driven by a Denon 1908 (was around $300). With a Velodyne 15 inch powered sub.

Source for movies is a Panasonic BD player. Into a Sony KBR.

Be sure to go full 1080p for the home theater.

Go listen to the speakers...whatever you do! Everyone's ears are different and some speakers will sound great to you, and some won't. Try to find something that has a similar sound to the L300's.

I believe Home Theatre sound is somewhat different from Regular Music...it's much "hotter". Especially for anything with Big Sound. Like watching the plane crash in The Aviator. Or anything in Chronicles of Riddick...or Transformers.The sub is absolutely necessary for that kind of big movie. You gotta rock the house.

But if I'm watching Chicago, or Mama Mia, or Roy Orbison's Black and White night...the sub's off.

And it goes without saying, I would never ever listen to Regular Music with the sub on.

Personally, I like the way Denon handles music. A lot! The nice thing that I've found with the Denon...I can listen to music thru the JBL's all day long and never get tired. Sony...not so much. But then, like I said...everyone has different taste. My best friend loves his Sony.

And the HT playback options are fantastic. One night I had a bunch of people over and put on a '50's playlist, and ran the Denon thru it's 5 channel (no sub) rock arena program...It was just like going back to the old sock hops in the park back in the mid '60's...lot's of echo. Very nostalgic.

Anyway, go slow. And do go listen to the speakers....

[JBLCanuck]

I'm doing a similar project myself only on a slightly higher budget...but with no more knowledge of HT than TGK. I've always been a "learn by trial & error" kind of guy :D
So I've rounded up a great deal on an Adcom GTP-880 & a GFA-7707 that are virtually new for $1000. Only thing wrong was I had to replace 2 of the binding posts on that big Amp. Man...that is the heaviest Amp I've ever seen...almost 150lbs.
So my intent was to use my new 4345/4344's as front speakers, I have a pair of 4333A's I was going to use for the rears & I have a pair of 4301B's I was considering for L & R. Only problem is I don't have a good center channel & I really just don't feel like building another 4345...to be honest. I do have most of the components out of a pair of L100T's...I guess I could make something that would match them. I still have a pair of new 2245H's that nobody bought & a couple of big Adcom 565's...I think I'm OK in the base department :)
Any advice, criticism or recommendations?

[Mr. Widget]

Any advice, criticism or recommendations?Impossible to give any meaningful advice without knowing a lot ore about your room. A dimensioned drawing with material call outs and a description of ceiling material and height(s) along with a description of the carpets and furnishings would be very helpful.


Widget

[JBLCanuck]

Hi Widg,
My room is 20' x 20' with a vaulted ceiling. 9' walls 12' at the ridge & the ridge goes from L-R.
For all intensive purposes...carpet etc I can make how I like. My wife wanted etched concrete floors in that room but I quickly kiboshed that idea, as well as hardwood. It'll be carpeted...is there good & bad sonic qualities to different carpets?
There are windows & doors along the back wall & one side wall is mostly open to the rest of the house...so it's definitely not optimal as a HT room...but I have to work with what I have. The room actually used to be closed on all sides but wifey wanted a more open concept so I lost that debate :)
One question I've been meaning to ask you guys is this....my Adcom 7707 has 7 channels @ 200w/channel. The processor is 7.1 & my 4345 clones are bi-amp only. So can I use a "Y" at the processor to run 2 amps from the one channel...you follow?http://members.shaw.ca/missionkraft/adcom.jpg

[jcrobso]

"my 4345 clones are bi-amp only. So can I use a "Y" at the processor to run 2 amps from the one channel...you follow?"

If you have and electronic x-over you can run the front L-R output of the processor to the x-over,then to your current amps and speakers.

[JBLCanuck]

"my 4345 clones are bi-amp only. So can I use a "Y" at the processor to run 2 amps from the one channel...you follow?"

If you have and electronic x-over you can run the L-R output of the processor to the x-over,then to your current amps and speakers.

Ah yes...I forgot all about that!
Good thing somebody's on the ball! :)

[jbl_daddy]

I had the similar center channel problem, Gorden at Audio Atlanta has provided me with all of the identical components in my 4340's with one exception, two 10'' speakers and no 15'' driver with one 2420 and a 2405. My objective is to have the same sounding speakers all the way around.

[Mr. Widget]

Hi Widg,
My room is 20' x 20' with a vaulted ceiling. 9' walls 12' at the ridge & the ridge goes from L-R.
For all intensive purposes...carpet etc I can make how I like. My wife wanted etched concrete floors in that room but I quickly kiboshed that idea, as well as hardwood. It'll be carpeted...is there good & bad sonic qualities to different carpets?
There are windows & doors along the back wall & one side wall is mostly open to the rest of the house...so it's definitely not optimal as a HT room...but I have to work with what I have. The room actually used to be closed on all sides but wifey wanted a more open concept so I lost that debate :)
One question I've been meaning to ask you guys is this....my Adcom 7707 has 7 channels @ 200w/channel. The processor is 7.1 & my 4345 clones are bi-amp only. So can I use a "Y" at the processor to run 2 amps from the one channel...you follow?I like your ceiling... a square floor plan is really too bad, but perhaps the opening will help.

I would probably go with a dedicated sub or two... possibly four if you can swing it. 2245s are excellent for music, but in a larger room which yours is having that open wall, I think you could pop them... especially at reference level with an action film. Also the 2245 while it goes plenty deep for music, it will be really taxed to delve into the low twenties or below at any sort of moderate to high SPL.

What are your surround plans? Are you are planning on running a 5.1 or a 7.1 system? Even though we install a lot of 7.1 systems it is mainly due to people wanting them since "it must be better, right?" The argument can be made for 7.1 in some rooms but in most cases a 5.1 system is actually better, or at least truer to the original cinema mix. That said, Tom Holman (Mr. THX) says if you can afford to go with more than a 5.1 channel system you should put the additional channels in the front where you can actually hear them. He advocates a 10.2 system with 7 channels up front and three in the rear. I've heard it and with the right source material it is stunning. A handful of new processors and top end receivers will be offered shortly with his DSX decoder to create 9.1 or 11.1 systems based on 5.1 or 7.1 systems.

Where will your primary listening position be in this room. How big will your screen or display be?

Yep, lots of questions... but without them inaccurate assumptions are always likely.


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

Travis, you may want to start your own L300 thread & ...I'll be pulling out these posts and starting a new thread for him.

Look for it here: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=26819


Widget

[gsxronax]

Many here, myself included, would whip up a custom center channel using parts similar to the L300s... this sort of thing isn't a trivial undertaking though and every time I start a new project, even with over 30 years of experience designing and building custom and DIY speakers, there are no guarantees that it will work out as desired.

I'd suggest you buy a proper center channel, a good receiver, and a pair of competent surrounds. My first choice in centers would be the 880 Array, but it is likely too expensive for this project, you might consider the new JBL LS Series... I've recently listened to the LS80 floor standers and am happily impressed. (More to come on this later.) In the LS Series there is an affordable center chanel that should do an admirable job of keeping up with the L30s. For surrounds, the Performance Series P520WS surrounds are quite affordable and are a bargain.

As for a receiver, I'd go with a mid level Denon or Onkyo/Integra.

I noticed, you didn't mention a sub. Personally I'd add one or two, but I suppose you could get by with the L300s at least at first.