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View Full Version : SDEC / BSS Ok, But what is simular to DACS ?



Loffen
10-16-2009, 04:38 AM
Need some help here...

I am building up a "Synthesis" system, or something really close to one.

My problem now is the SDEC 4500P and 4500X that are more or less rebadged BSS BLU-80 and BLU-32 ( http://www.bssaudio.com/soundweb_london.php )


I did just buy a BLU-80 as the first step to get a SDEC 4500 setup and I will for now just use it on my subwoofers until I get hold of a BLU-32

I will ofcourse not get the Synthesis software, but that is no problem, however so do JBL use the DACS calibration system to get things right on the Synthesis systems and it is only available to the certified installers.

So my question is if there is something simular to the DACS calibration out there I can use with the BSS setup ?

Titanium Dome
10-16-2009, 07:25 AM
I've asked this question myself, having had the DACS calibration done on my Synthesisģ One Array.

I also have an older Synthesisģ Three System with the SDP-3, and I've got a spare SDEC 2500 and S400. I'd like to try the SDP-3, SDEC 2500, Performance Series AVA-7 and S400 in a system. I'm not keen on paying $1500 or more to have this done via DACS.

The best info I have so far is to try the BSS software packages found here:

http://www.bssaudio.com/software.php

particularly the HiQnet and Soundweb apps. These appear to be older Windows applications, so I'd have to find an old Windows machine or run them off my Macbook Pro in a Windows partition (which I don't have and don't have enough incentive to install).

grumpy
10-16-2009, 07:34 AM
(I see TD, not unexpectedly, beat me to the punch :))

I considered (more like fantasized) about going a similar route with the BSS
london units... the control software (London Architect) is indeed available,
but as you mentioned the DACS or next-gen JBL/Synthesis cal system is not.

Having witnessed one such DACS-based install, I can tell you it would be a
long, iterative, process requiring a significant knowledge and experience
base to get anywhere close with quality, but non-dedicated cal gear.

Loffen
10-16-2009, 08:04 AM
But the guys using the BSS must have something they use for calibration ??

The control software is there for free ( Just have to learn how to use it..)

I mean.. this system is used all over, from small cinemas to large stage setups, it should not be any problem to set it up manually, except that it will take some time but I need something that shows the effect of what I am doing.

Ohh... I could not find anything at the BSS page regarding how to messure, maybe some one else has better luck ?

grumpy
10-16-2009, 08:55 AM
the trick would be to have something integrated.

I would think Smaart would work, or a number of other measurement systems,
but they are generic tools, not HT setup tools.

Mr. Widget
10-16-2009, 09:24 AM
...but they are generic tools, not HT setup tools.And I don't think too much importance can be placed on this. The SDEC/BSS processors are not magic... the magic comes in setting them up. As for the equalization functions that these processors do, unless you have a significant investment in test gear and quite a lot of experience in "Small" room acoustics, I think you'd be far better off with a product like Audyssey.


Widget

grumpy
10-16-2009, 09:49 AM
Agreed.

If one were to attempt to balance the cost of getting a proper education,
experience, and equipment required to begin such an endeavor (and still
not be assured of success), I believe the dealer- installed/calibration setup
would look like quite the bargain :).

Passing those gates, it would be a challenge and a boatload of fun (or
frustration).

Loffen
10-16-2009, 10:19 AM
Well for starters, so do I not think the REW will do the trick here, the same with the XTC setup I have used in previus setups even if it uses 3 messuring points

Audyssey Hmm.... remember that I live in Norway ??? I would still need an installer to get it up and running.

Oh Yes I have tried the SVS clone on two of the subwoofers and got a perfect result according to the SVS, but we did messure the room before and after the SVS was there any difference ?? :blink:

I still would like to invest in a proffesional messuring setup and then something as close to the DACS as possible, so that is still my question, what is out there and where can I get it ?

Loffen
10-16-2009, 10:33 AM
I think you'd be far better off with a product like Audyssey.


Widget


Ohh By the way, Thank you for the trust in me Widget :D

grumpy
10-16-2009, 10:42 AM
IIRC, Audyssey comes in several flavors, only the most capable requiring dealer calibration/equipment... but perhaps that is what you are referring to.

My understanding (limited) of the DACS system was that it was a very limited
build (5 field units?) and was dedicated/specific to HT installations. I don't believe you can procure the equivalent... Hence my earlier reference to Smaart... add CLIO, and other such measurement packages to the possible tool palette and one can perform similar type measurements, but you would be on your own
regarding a procedure to perform measurements, average, evaluate,
implement corrections, remeasure, fit to a "house-HT or X-curve", etc...

I don't see intermediate areas between consumer/self-installed gear, consumer/dealer-installed-calibrated using specific/dedicated
measurement h/w, and the pro/generic venue tools/gear, with nearly unlimited
capability, but "only" your training and experience to guide you.

Mr. Widget
10-16-2009, 10:55 AM
I still would like to invest in a proffesional messuring setup and then something as close to the DACS as possible, so that is still my question, what is out there and where can I get it ?The DACS system is a proprietary JBL system that they have been developing and evolving over the past few years. In September at the CEDIA show I spoke at length with several of the engineers at JBL and they told me that their current iteration of DACS is significantly more capable and delivers better results with the SDEC/BSS processors than they were capable of when using the earlier generation DACS... systems that were setup and calibrated as recently as July of this year will not be as well integrated especially in the bass as the systems they can now setup. Realize too that part of the DACS system is the factory trained dealer or technician using the gear. Simply having the setup really isn't enough.

My comment about using Audyssey wasn't at all meant to be disrespectful of your knowledge or skill, but rather a practical suggestion. It is quite powerful and is fairly simple to use.

Widget

Mr. Widget
10-16-2009, 11:02 AM
...and the pro/generic venue tools/gear, with nearly unlimited capability, but "only" your training and experience to guide you.There is another issue here. Almost all, actually I don't know of any pro room tuning/testing packages that are geared to rooms that are smaller that a 100+ seat theater... room acoustics and the underlying principles change markedly in rooms the size we have in domestic scenarios. Put another way, taking an RT60 measurement in a home is pointless.


Widget

grumpy
10-16-2009, 11:28 AM
Agreed. You have to be aware of the capabilities and limitations of both
your instruments and yourself, including the test environment.

This forum/venue is not likely the best place to mine for advanced pro
DSP setup and cal advice of a DIY nature, let alone for use in a HT.

If I ever make it back to Norway, it would be quite interesting to see
your progress :)

Loffen
10-16-2009, 11:58 AM
If I ever make it back to Norway, it would be quite interesting to see
your progress :)

You are allways welcome grumpy :)

What I did mean to say is that the regular consumer pruducts do not do the job on my setup..

Setup = Lexicon MC12HD Xlr, speakers 2 x K2 9800, Sk1000, 4 x S1S EX clones, 4 x S1A, Amps 2 x JC1, 2 XA21, A23 Bridged, 4 x S800.

The SVS I did mention is a Audyssey knock off, it does not work....

Ohh sorry widget, just heard that to many times, but I am pretty stubbourn :-) No hard feelings...

But anyways there must be something out there that installers use and are fairly simple ??

Mr. Widget
10-16-2009, 12:50 PM
But anyways there must be something out there that installers use and are fairly simple ??This is what we use: http://www.audyssey.com/hometheater/soundeq.html

Augmented by CLIO measurements and decades of experience.

I have also set up systems with the older Rane sourced Synthesis EQs using CLIO, as well as DEQX and others. All of them seem to require a bit of interpretation/intervention.... this is where the experience comes in.

I haven't mentioned it publicly before, but we have recently become JBL Synthesis dealers and due to my conversations with JBL engineering we have decided to install the SDEC 4500 system rather than the SDEC 3000 that we originally planned on using in our demo system. The power of this system when combined with JBL's DACS and support is quite impressive. That said, I still highly recommend Audyssey. When set up correctly it can be quite phenomenal... we recently ordered their Sub Equalizer after hearing it demoed... it offers quite a lot of correction at a really good price point.


Widget

Valentin
10-16-2009, 02:54 PM
also if you want a practical solution there is the JBL bassQ which has the sound field room correction algorithm




I haven't mentioned it publicly before, but we have recently become JBL Synthesis dealers



congrats widget

hope in the near future we can also become synthesis dealer in mexico city

Titanium Dome
10-16-2009, 11:47 PM
Congratulations on your Synthesisģ affiliation!

And thanks for letting me know my June 18th DACS calibration is already out of date. :biting: Dammit Widget!:banghead:

Mr. Widget
10-17-2009, 10:10 AM
Congratulations...More to come shortly...


And thanks for letting me know my June 18th DACS calibration is already out of date. :biting: Dammit Widget!:banghead:Sorry about that... it is interesting how when talking to audiophiles about the change a preamp or even a cable makes in their system and you hear that it was "night and day." Engineers are usually more reserved with the hyperbole... but at JBL they seemed quite proud of their advances in room tuning abilities with the new software.

That said, if your system sounds good, and you and grumpy both seem pleased with the results, I wouldn't sweat it.


Widget

Titanium Dome
10-17-2009, 09:29 PM
More to come shortly...

Sorry about that...


Engineers are usually more reserved with the hyperbole... but at JBL they seemed quite proud of their advances in room tuning abilities with the new software.

That said, if your system sounds good, and you and grumpy both seem pleased with the results, I wouldn't sweat it.


Widget

Well, your atonement will have to be coming to LA to "practice" your DACS (5?) skills on my system. Purely as a courtesy for the sake of gaining experience of course. :yes:

Titanium Dome
10-18-2009, 04:48 AM
I guess I should have added this:

There was so much improvement from initial set up and testing to final calibration that I couldn't help thinking (in the deep recesses of my mind), "Hmm. I bet it could sound even better." The question was how?

Maybe a rethinking of the room treatments...
Maybe a better pre/pro than the SDP-5 with HDMI capability or at least 7-channel analog input...
Maybe kneeling at the altar of amplifier religion to accept Bo's or Clark's mystic devotion and throwing out the big brute Synthesisģ amps...
Maybe getting some yummy Monster Cable interconnects and tossing the Straight Wire stuff...
Maybe replacing the Oppo Bluray for a really expensive one and getting an expensive external DAC, too...
Maybe regressing to scratchy, popping, distorted vinyl with a $4k TT, $1.5k tone arm, and $800 cart and getting the true sound of analog...

...and now you tell me I needed better software??

:rotfl:

Valentin
05-25-2010, 07:19 AM
it is now called Hats (harman audio test system)

and it not only for synthesis set up but a much more powerfull program
all divisions of harman are using it from investigation and develpment to final intalations or mere acoustic measurments

it is basiclaly a very nice software that uses a bss unit as an interface for mics and etc


the new advantage of the 4500 unit and this system is you can use the new algoritm called sound field managment which realy is a killer bass system calibration.
by the way

but if you have the sdec 3000 you can allsow use soundfield if you use only two subs in a 5.1 configuration

grumpy
05-25-2010, 07:44 AM
Yep: http://www.jblsynthesis.com/aboutus.aspx

Then, click on:

JBL Synthesis Specialized Services (javascript:void(0);) for HATS info.

"Two Jim's" could get a placard suitable for wall hanging !!! ;)

Titanium Dome
06-01-2010, 10:50 AM
Well, my excuse for attaching this info to the other thread is I was in Alaska for a week and ignored all Web and cell phone activity. (By "ignored," of course I mean mostly not available. :p )

grumpy
06-01-2010, 12:26 PM
a whole week 'off the grid'... nice. I'd say welcome back, but that had to be too short...

JBL 4645
06-07-2010, 03:08 AM
a whole week 'off the grid'... nice. I'd say welcome back, but that had to be too short...
grumpy
What didn’t you pay your electrical bill? :p Hey get a key-meter it’s far less of headache.


Well for starters, so do I not think the REW will do the trick here, the same with the XTC setup I have used in previus setups even if it uses 3 messuring points

Audyssey Hmm.... remember that I live in Norway ??? I would still need an installer to get it up and running.

Oh Yes I have tried the SVS clone on two of the subwoofers and got a perfect result according to the SVS, but we did messure the room before and after the SVS was there any difference ?? :blink:

I still would like to invest in a proffesional messuring setup and then something as close to the DACS as possible, so that is still my question, what is out there and where can I get it ?

Loffen

I think the REW approach along with the type of selected Behringer (DSP1124 / BFQ2496) that you chose.

Remember the cost isn’t as obscured as most others and the goal is essentially the same (to get the frequencies levelled out).

You might need to patch one or more of the same type together in daisy chain or (looped) so you double the amount of PEQ bands that you will need for the task.

I don’t think you’ll find a more, cheaper route around this. And $1500 is a ludicrous amount of money for a BSS.

Then again there’s the space rack issue of multiples of (DSP1124 / BFQ2496) for

Left
Centre
Right
Left-surround
Right-surround
Centre-back surround (optional)
Sub bass extension
Sub bass LFE.1 channel

Now if you like hours of (hands on) rather than (auto) and not learning how to do it manually by hand the human personal touch. But the response still needs to be with the parameters.

Pricing for the FBQ2496 in England
http://www.google.co.uk/products?um=1&hl=en&q=FBQ2496&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=if

Pricing for DSP1124 in England
http://www.google.co.uk/products?q=DSP1124&hl=en&aq=f

I think the DSP1124 is discontinued. £68.29 wow that’s a steal!

Jonas_h
06-11-2010, 06:18 AM
grumpy
What didnít you pay your electrical bill? :p Hey get a key-meter itís far less of headache.



Loffen

I think the REW approach along with the type of selected Behringer (DSP1124 / BFQ2496) that you chose.

Remember the cost isnít as obscured as most others and the goal is essentially the same (to get the frequencies levelled out).

You might need to patch one or more of the same type together in daisy chain or (looped) so you double the amount of PEQ bands that you will need for the task.

I donít think youíll find a more, cheaper route around this. And $1500 is a ludicrous amount of money for a BSS.

Then again thereís the space rack issue of multiples of (DSP1124 / BFQ2496) for

Left
Centre
Right
Left-surround
Right-surround
Centre-back surround (optional)
Sub bass extension
Sub bass LFE.1 channel

Now if you like hours of (hands on) rather than (auto) and not learning how to do it manually by hand the human personal touch. But the response still needs to be with the parameters.

Pricing for the FBQ2496 in England
http://www.google.co.uk/products?um=1&hl=en&q=FBQ2496&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=if

Pricing for DSP1124 in England
http://www.google.co.uk/products?q=DSP1124&hl=en&aq=f

I think the DSP1124 is discontinued. £68.29 wow thatís a steal!

I think Loffen is going for a large step up in quality compared to the Behringer units. :)

Is it impossible to buy a HATS software kit from Harman/JBL? The mics, BSS unit etc should not be a problem, but is the software only developed for internal use in Harman? I think that's a real shame :(

As someone else mentioned, I would think "Smaart" would be the best alternative for measuring.