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View Full Version : L7's paired with Carver M-1.5t



Slare
10-09-2009, 01:48 PM
I picked up a Carver M-1.5t amplifier through a CL trade. Got around to hooking it up to my L7's, using my Denon AVR-987 as a pre-amp.

My impressions of the amplifier are that it has "hella" power output in such a nice little package, but it seems to be pretty harsh in the upper midrange. Compared to my original settings (using the Denon amps) I've pushed down the 4kHz/8Khz EQ a couple dB.

My setup hasn't changed otherwise, and I'm quite familiar with the speakers, setup, and source materials. I'm curious about these findings, because to my understanding the M-1.5t is supposed to be "tuned" to be slightly warm/soft in the high end, and my subjective listening seems completely opposite.

Just wondering if anyone has any experience or thoughts about the M-1.5t. I also have a Kenwood Basic M2A which is supposed to be a ruler true amp I may try swapping in to check. But it's a lot bigger and uglier with quite a bit less output. So I'd prefer to stick with the Carver.

The one thing I will admit as a distinct possibility, is that I am just driving the L7's a lot harder now, as they will certainly play very clear all the way up to tapping the amp's clipping point. Such high volume is now possible that no sane person would listen (in my small room, at least) for any real amount of time.

rdgrimes
10-09-2009, 02:22 PM
Send the Carver in for a refurb. With new output caps it will sound like a whole different amp. Cost is very reasonable.

http://www.carveraudio.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7093

If you send it there, there's a chance you can even get Bob Carver to sign the amp for you. There's another refurb shop in WA that's also very reasonable and good.

Harshness in the mids and highs is pretty typical for old caps. I've had a number of the Carvers, some refurbed and some not. Side by side the difference is easy to hear.

I use a Carver C1 preamp with mine. Clean and crisp as can be. :) And yes, the M-1.5t has insane amounts of power. At 8u it can deliver 600W peaks into either channel. The M500t sounds a lot like it and has those lovely big VU meters.

JBLAddict
10-09-2009, 08:39 PM
we have a little in common, I'm running an L7, L5, EC35 HT setup, looks like you have the same speakers, not sure if they're all in the HT?

My AVR is a HK 354 and the L7s are powered through the pre-outs by a Soundcraftsmen S800 ('93 240WPC). The L7s sounded very good through the 75WPC AVR, but were weak in the mid bass and 3-5kHz range, once I bought the SC, it really came to life and at high volumes lost the breakup and stays strong and clean, I think it's a wonderful match, but again I don't own other amps to compare.....I followed TiD's recommendation to mate the L7 with Souncraftsmen and have been really happy...mids are crystal clear and highs are crisp and articulate, also have space to keep them 3' from the corners

I've grown a little bored in the past couple months and have been itching to pickup a new amp to experiment, threads like this fuel that itch, but I don't want to drop hundreds on a crap shoot, rather am looking for someone to recommend a good L7 match to try out. You might want to also try a SC for comparison sake? Would be interesting to see how it compares to the KW and Carver

BMWCCA
10-09-2009, 09:09 PM
I went back and forth comparing a Soundcraftsmen Pro-Power-Four amp (same basic specs as an S800) to two different Crown PS-400s on a pair of L7s and eventually parked the SC in a spare rack. Nothing wrong with it but my ears just preferred the old Crowns, and I have SC pre-amp-EQs and pre-amp plus EQs in all my systems so I am a fan of the brand. Never hurts to swap electronics in an attempt to isolate the problem though.

Titanium Dome
10-09-2009, 10:24 PM
I've grown a little bored in the past couple months and have been itching to pickup a new amp to experiment, threads like this fuel that itch,

am looking for someone to recommend a good L7 match to try out.


Never hurts to swap electronics in an attempt to isolate the problem though.

I've got three letters for you: ATI

BMWCCA
10-10-2009, 06:35 AM
I've got three letters for you: ATI$900 for a made-in-USA 120wpc amp (http://www.ati-amp.com/at1202.html) with all the protection they're talking about doesn't seem like a bad deal. And that's MSRP, though they list no dealers. Amplifier Technology, Inc., Reseda, California Phone: 818-343-4777. Maybe, like Soundcraftsmen used to, they'll offer 25% off for direct orders.

As a born-and-raised Midwesterner, I'll stick with my Elkhart, Indiana stuff.:applaud:

rdgrimes
10-10-2009, 08:00 AM
Slare already has the right amp, it just needs some TLC, being >20 yrs old. He may have some issue on the pre-amp side, that's an unknown. The Carver has anti-clipping and speaker protection as well as other protections in place.

For $200 and shipping he can have the amp in like-new condition.

BTW, here's one that's already had the treatment at a very reasonable price:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280407645316&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Slare, if you want a manual for the M1.5t, I have it in pdf, (18MB) Also have service manuals.

Slare
10-10-2009, 03:21 PM
The guy I got the amp from said he would drop the manual in the mail but I figure it's about a 50/50 shot. Would love to have the manual if you can split it up to email or upload it somewhere.

The 1.5t seems to be a really well matched solution by the specs (that's why I picked it up...) but I have a hard time putting ~$250 into refurbishment when I have no idea what the difference is going to be. It's hard to understand for some folks but I pick things up and upgrade when a good deal comes around, and $250 can be a pretty nice budget with careful shopping.

The M2A basic will probably get hooked up this week for an A-B. It is supposed to be a very high quality S/S amp and having used it with other speakers I picked up no indication of sound discoloration. It's a solid 220x2 rms with ultra-low distortion and solid ~550 peak headroom.

Far as the pre-amp goes, the AVR-987 is a very solid receiver and I'm quite confident it is doing its job. I do have some component pre-amplifiers but to be quite honest I have never thought my ears to be good enough to really tell the difference between one preamp or another, outside of things like noise floor or tone settings.

Anyone have any pictures of a bone stock M-1.5t with the casing off? Given I don't know the history of the amp, I'd like to do some quick check to see if it has possibly been refurbished prior. It's in VERY nice condition and seems to have gotten some TLC over the years.

rdgrimes
10-10-2009, 04:32 PM
Just look at the main (huge) output caps, there should be 2 large ones and maybe a couple smaller ones. It's usually easy to tell when they have been replaced with non-original caps cause the saddle they sit in doesn't fit newer caps. I've seen them replaced with 4 smaller ones or 2 of the original ratings. But if work was done by a pro, there should be some marking to that effect.

Having done A-B comparison between M1.5t with new caps and one with original, I feel comfortable in saying you will hear a lot of difference - clarity, sharpness, etc. Not to mention better power peaks. A short version of the difference might be that with old caps it'll sound like it's clipping. It really is a "must-do" for an older amp. Carvers that have been properly refurbed are worth more than what original amps are worth. I've seem them go for $500 where $300 is about the max for an original amp. The M1.5t is the most desired. FWIW, the M500t can also be modded to output as much as the 1.5t does. If you can find another amp that will put out 600WPC peaks at those prices, buy it. ;)

I'll upload the manuals and drop you a link by PM.

SEAWOLF97
10-10-2009, 04:46 PM
$900 for a made-in-USA 120wpc amp (http://www.ati-amp.com/at1202.html) with all the protection they're talking about doesn't seem like a bad deal. And that's MSRP, though they list no dealers. Amplifier Technology, Inc., Reseda, California Phone: 818-343-4777.


Effective October 20, 2003, BGW Systems has been acquired by Amplifier Technologies, Inc. All engineering, design, manufacturing, sales, marketing and administration will now be handled by Amplifier Technologies, Inc. All correspondence/inquiries regarding The New BGW should be made to:
Amplifier Technologies, Inc.,
1749 Chapin Road
Montebello, California 90640.
Phone: 323-278-0001
Fax: 323-278-0083
Email: [email protected]

JBLAddict
10-10-2009, 06:20 PM
I've got three letters for you: ATI

new or vintage, or does it matter for the L7?

JBLAddict
10-10-2009, 06:25 PM
Slare already has the right amp

have you mated the Carver with the L7 in particular? IIRC.. TiD saying he paired his with a Carver and they were "screaming in constant agony", unless it was another brand:dont-know

Slare
10-12-2009, 02:20 PM
I'm going to pop the case off the 1.5 sometime soon here to check out the internals. If it is still factory I think I've decided to have it refurbed. I've been looking at ~$500 or less 2-channel amplifiers for quite some time and outside of PA amplifiers, nothing I've seen really compares well to the package size, appearance, and output potential of the Carver.

I have ~$120 in it as is. Figure refurbishment will end up costing me ~$230. So for $350 total, I'd be set for awhile.

Alternatively, if I sell the amp (for ~$250) that would put me $130 up. So I could spend upwards of ~$480 on another venue. I want the ~300+ rms/ch power. I like the plain front panel with some sort of meters, and the short rack height. Short of PA amps, I haven't found much similar. But I'm open to suggestions.

I will say, that I will post pics of the 1.5 internals once I have them. And if I have the amp refurbed, I will give an honest evaluation of before/after. There are so many differing opinions out there about this amp, I will be more than willing to muddy the waters even further if I drop two bills on refurbishment and can't tell the difference. I'm very suspicious of the placebo effect.

I will say I have no doubt about the power output specs. I talked to one guy in particular that had an 1.5 and said he had a 50 watt/ch Sansui that outdid it. I'd have to say he had a bad one.

BTW I picked up a H/K AVR-254 last night on BB clearance ($170 w/ 4 year warranty). It has lesser built-in power than the Denon AVR-987 but has some updated surround codecs, nicer video processing & switching (1080p DCDi), and looks very nice. The Denon carried an original street price of ~$800, H/K around $500 far as I can tell, but it's a year or so newer. Ironically I've now gotten them both under two bills so from that respect they are about the same to me.

Any opinions about the two?

The Denon has been rock solid for me. Mildly confusing setup and pretty poor GUI, but after setup functionally it has been great. The H/K has a reputation for being quite temperamental on the video side, but it is supposed to have very sweet SQ. No doubt I'll be keeping them both but now I'm a little torn on which will be on lead.

JeffW
10-12-2009, 03:53 PM
I replaced a 200wpc Sansui with a Carver M1.5T that I bought off rdgrimes. I like the Carver better, but the Sansui does need to be gone thru. I'm not using L7 speakers so I don't know how relevant my opinion would be, I'm happy with the amp for several months now. I'll send it back to Carver one of these days to get it spruced up, but it sounds pretty good as is IMHO.

Triumph Don
10-12-2009, 08:02 PM
I had a Carver TM 35, one side goes cablooie takes out an L 100. Then a C-1 preamp has paint flaking off the knobs [cheap paint over last year's chrome plastic?]. Then some snug RCA's pulled the gilded covers right out of a C-24 preamp tuner. Just bought another C-1 with a 1.5T and a C-11 tuner [and a pair of L150's] for $500 [yes, good score] guy had all boxes and receipts, including 3 repairs on the 1.5t! No more Carver for me. Under $500? Crown PS 400 would work, although a little bright.

BMWCCA
10-13-2009, 06:14 PM
I've got three letters for you: ATI
Aren't these the people who own/owned SAE and are planning on resurrecting that brand?

bigyank
10-13-2009, 06:56 PM
The lineage is there in that Morris Kessler (one of the ATI founders) was also a founder of SAE, I think in 1967. I wouldn't mind seeing SAE again, as I have a sweet spot for them but I don't think Phoenix from the ashes is happening anytime soon for that brand.

Yank

BMWCCA
10-13-2009, 07:58 PM
The lineage is there in that Morris Kessler (one of the ATI founders) was also a founder of SAE, I think in 1967. I wouldn't mind seeing SAE again, as I have a sweet spot for them but I don't think Phoenix from the ashes is happening anytime soon for that brand.Apparently ATI owns the rights to the SAE name (and BGW). Also there is/was apparently a line of ATI amps bearing the SAE name and logo being sold in France through an arrangement with Kessler.

And then there's this from the SAE list dated this last August:

The SAE brand has been quiet for way too long! As you probably already know, ATI
(Amplifier Technologies)is the outgrowth of the original SAE. After various
changes in ownership of the SAE mark, we have reacquired the SAE brand and are
interested in bringing back this glorious name! The question is...what would
you like to see SAE become? Two channel? home theater? high-power? low power?
analog? digital? amps? preamps? processors? transports? DACS?
black/silver?....it never ends! We appreciate all SAE supporters and look
forward to your comments.
Mike Pontelle/ATI

Titanium Dome
10-14-2009, 06:43 AM
ATI is also the current builder of JBL Synthesis® amplifiers: S800 (S820), S5160 (S5165), S7150 (S7165). Numbers in parenthesis are new product numbers.

BMWCCA
10-14-2009, 07:03 AM
ATI is also the current builder of JBL Synthesis® amplifiers...
Outlaw amplifiers, too, I'm told.

JBLAddict
10-14-2009, 09:53 PM
BTW I picked up a H/K AVR-254 last night on BB clearance ($170 w/ 4 year warranty). It has lesser built-in power than the Denon AVR-987 but has some updated surround codecs, nicer video processing & switching (1080p DCDi), and looks very nice. The Denon carried an original street price of ~$800, H/K around $500 far as I can tell, but it's a year or so newer. Ironically I've now gotten them both under two bills so from that respect they are about the same to me.

Any opinions about the two?

The Denon has been rock solid for me. Mildly confusing setup and pretty poor GUI, but after setup functionally it has been great. The H/K has a reputation for being quite temperamental on the video side, but it is supposed to have very sweet SQ. No doubt I'll be keeping them both but now I'm a little torn on which will be on lead.

I bought the HK354 last December for $700, so your $150 for the HK254 is a steal. The GUI is absolutely fantastic, setup is extremely easy, sound is very very good. Tempermental, however, yes, very....there's 77 pages of reading about it here
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1053202

There's a variety of notorious issues with sound and video with the Sony PS3 playing games and bluray videos, and another when hooking certain Motorola DVRs via HDMI, which is my particular thorn in the side, another with DVI inputs, missing the first part of a CD track, pops when changing channels. There's a string of firmware upgrades that claim to fix each issue, but many report new issues popping up with the new firmware.....so I haven't bothered.

Slare
10-15-2009, 05:32 AM
Triumph, that Crown is huge! It's almost three times as big as the 1.5 with half the power output. If I were going to use a old school big guy, I'd probably just stick with the M2A. I really have limited room in my entertainment center, and it is already looking quite ridiculous. Counting the PS3 I have 8 components in it. I don't really have to worry about WAF but you have to draw the line somewhere. I'm trying to manage the addiction.

I have a remote on the way for the 254 and will most likely hit the firmware this weekend. Can't tell for sure which revision is on it until I get the remote, but it looks like there were significant bugfixes in the late 2008 upgrades. The AVS threads are huge and if the HDMI video handing is really as buggy as it would seem to be, I'll just not use it for video switching and rely upon the Harmony remote and extra cabling. Given I splurged for the 4 year warranty on the thing it will likely be the one component I never have any issues with.

After some more reviewing it seems like the H/K "should" be down on power and it doesn't have any manually adjustable EQ. I don't think I'll notice the power in surround modes (1.5 is there for stereo music) but I think the EQ is going to be the nail that relegates it to a secondary system. My main system is in a hardwood floor room and regular bass/treble controls just don't cut it, while every time I've used and Audessey type system in the room it ends up sounding much too flat for my preferences. The Denon has a rather nice 11 (?) channel EQ that is individually adjustable for each channel, and that's allowed me to integrate the EC35 as a center quite nicely.

Slare
10-19-2009, 11:09 AM
Here are some pics of the 1.5t without the casing. Caps all match and are a glossy blue color. Seems to be factory original but I'd certainly appreciate anyone who can tell for sure chiming in.

I also noticed the little resistors wired into the output stage. Is this the "t" mod? I'm really curious about defeating these to see if I can pick up the difference.

Also attached a (bad) pic of the H/K AVR-254 with my Denon AVR-987 in the background. The H/K looks so nice, and the GUI is about a huge an upgrade over the Denon as possible. I hooked it up to the L7's but it just doesn't have the beans to feed them. So, I think it is destined to the 2nd room.

Didn't haul the M2A up yet.

rdgrimes
10-19-2009, 01:28 PM
Here are some pics of the 1.5t without the casing. Caps all match and are a glossy blue color. Seems to be factory original but I'd certainly appreciate anyone who can tell for sure chiming in.

I also noticed the little resistors wired into the output stage. Is this the "t" mod? I'm really curious about defeating these to see if I can pick up the difference.


Ya, that's a stock M1.5t. I can't tell you the difference between "t" and "non-t" versions except the "t" is a later version and more common. The specs are much the same except for higher IM distortion on the "t". I doubt you'd hear any differences. Any questions should be directed at the Carver repair shop.

I just love the insides of the Carvers. Built simple and solid as bricks. You can drop one from 6' on a concrete floor and not even dent it. (yes, I have).

If you get that 1.5 refurbed and don't love it, I'll pay you for it, whatever you have in it plus shipping.

Slare
10-19-2009, 01:53 PM
Thanks for the confirmation. I almost felt bad taking the case off. It really is in nice shape. Buying used stuff, even higher level stuff, it's not very often you come across a 15 year old piece of equipment in such nice shape.

Is it a given that the caps would be replaced if I send this out to Rita's shop? It is starting to feel inevitable, not to mention the idea of having it signed just seems too cool to pass up.

rdgrimes
10-19-2009, 03:33 PM
Thanks for the confirmation. I almost felt bad taking the case off. It really is in nice shape. Buying used stuff, even higher level stuff, it's not very often you come across a 15 year old piece of equipment in such nice shape.

Is it a given that the caps would be replaced if I send this out to Rita's shop? It is starting to feel inevitable, not to mention the idea of having it signed just seems too cool to pass up.
I would specify that I want the output caps replaced, and let them decide what else needs doing. You might have to leave it there for a while to get a signature, and I don't think they will guarantee that. But it never hurts to ask.

One other thing to note. Re-reading your initial description it occurred to me that it's also a description of how a large speaker can sound in a smallish room with a lot of power. Do you have the L7s away from walls and in a large enough room?

Slare
10-20-2009, 01:25 PM
My room is not ideal. I can only pull them out about 2 feet from the walls and the room itself is only about 14 x 20.

I had L5's in the main room before that worked very well in the setup, but I couldn't pass up the chance to get (cheap) L7's. So now the L5's are in the bedroom. It would actually make better acoustic sense swapping them but the L7's will look even more ludicrous in my bedroom. I think going to the Carver upped the ante a bit as I have a fairly bad habit of checking how things sound at near max output. But the Denon's individual channel / multi-band eq can square them away quite well.

Someday I'll upgrade living accommodations enough to use them properly, but I'm not willing to let them go out of service or sell them for now. I'd rather have a compromised L7 than most anything else I can afford.

I have noticed a small flurry of Carver Amazing type ribbons around here lately, though. Have to say I'm curious...

rdgrimes
10-20-2009, 03:01 PM
14x20 is ~2240 ft cubed with an 8' ceiling. That should be enough for the L7, assuming appropriate treatments.

Titanium Dome
10-20-2009, 04:13 PM
14x20 is ~2240 ft cubed with an 8' ceiling. That should be enough for the L7, assuming appropriate treatments.

Agreed. There must be other things at work. I found that even a 12' wide room worked with L7s set at 3'/6'/3' across the front and 3' out from the front wall. However, it helps to have a solid front wall and solid corners, too. The L7s like symmetry when they're loading up.

Slare
10-21-2009, 06:26 AM
The problem is that while the room is that big, I don't have access to all of it and the L7's must fire across the shorter dimension of the room (which may actually be closer to 12ft). It's an older house with a single common living / dining area. If I were to pull the L7's out 3ft from the wall, after having a couch and coffee table there would barely be any clearance to walk in between the table and L7's and I would end up with scuff marks all over the front of the speakers!. I was always worried with the L5's, that someone's foot would meet the bottom woofer.

I had the room setup lengthwise before with the TV positioned on the right side wall, but half the seats end up with a much worse view of the tv.

Adding to it I have hardwood floors, a large window behind the couch and a small window off to the right side. Windows are covered with heavy drapes but that's about all I can really do. Purple dot is my subs.