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gsb001
09-14-2009, 07:49 AM
2213H & 123A-3 Mac Kenzie re-cone kits
Hi Everyone,
Searched site and found no results.
I’m looking for thoughts, input, feed back, experience, ETC on Mac Kenzie aftermarket re-cone kits. Build quality, sound quality and install.
http://reconekits.com/jbl2213h.aspx (http://reconekits.com/jbl2213h.aspx)
I replaced pair of 2212’s with new JBL re-cones kits last year and they made a huge difference in the sound quality. It’s very easy to tell the difference between speakers with new cones and 20 + year old ones.
I’ve bought used complete speakers with hit and miss results. Can’t find any on the normal sites right now, so I’m researching re-cone kits.
Mac Kenzie sell pairs of 2213H for $140.00 compared to JBL’s at $370 a pair.
Guaranteed to be at or better then original factory specs.
Thanks - SB

4313B
09-14-2009, 07:59 AM
2213H & 123A-3 Mac Kenzie re-cone kits
Hi Everyone,
Searched site and found no results.
Iím looking for thoughts, input, feed back, experience, ETC on Mac Kenzie aftermarket re-cone kits. Build quality, sound quality and install.
http://reconekits.com/jbl2213h.aspx (http://reconekits.com/jbl2213h.aspx)
I replaced pair of 2212ís with new JBL re-cones kits last year and they made a huge difference in the sound quality. Itís very easy to tell the difference between speakers with new cones and 20 + year old ones.
Iíve bought used complete speakers with hit and miss results. Canít find any on the normal sites right now, so Iím researching re-cone kits.
Mac Kenzie sell pairs of 2213H for $140.00 compared to JBLís at $270 a pair.
Guaranteed to be at or better then original factory specs.
Thanks - SBI suspect we will be seeing more and more of these kinds of posts in the future.

JBL has very little interest in supporting legacy products any longer.

Earl K
09-14-2009, 08:22 AM
- Guaranteed to be at or better then original factory specs.
- I’m looking for thoughts, input, feed back,,,,
- Here's one thought ; shoot them an email and ask if their kit can duplicate the originals' TS parameters .

>< cheers :)

Russellc
09-14-2009, 09:48 AM
2213H & 123A-3 Mac Kenzie re-cone kits
Hi Everyone,
Searched site and found no results.
Iím looking for thoughts, input, feed back, experience, ETC on Mac Kenzie aftermarket re-cone kits. Build quality, sound quality and install.
http://reconekits.com/jbl2213h.aspx (http://reconekits.com/jbl2213h.aspx)
I replaced pair of 2212ís with new JBL re-cones kits last year and they made a huge difference in the sound quality. Itís very easy to tell the difference between speakers with new cones and 20 + year old ones.
Iíve bought used complete speakers with hit and miss results. Canít find any on the normal sites right now, so Iím researching re-cone kits.
Mac Kenzie sell pairs of 2213H for $140.00 compared to JBLís at $270 a pair.
Guaranteed to be at or better then original factory specs.
Thanks - SB
If JBL is selling them for 270 a pair I'm in. I think that may be a piece...
Russellc

gsb001
09-14-2009, 02:22 PM
What is - TS parameters
tks SB

gsb001
09-14-2009, 02:25 PM
Your correct, pair of JBL cones should have read $370 for the pair. The older, 2212's, 123A-1's are $280 each.
Thanks
SB

ratitifb
09-14-2009, 02:58 PM
What is - TS parameters
tks SB
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiele/Small ;)

gsb001
09-14-2009, 08:57 PM
Hey Earl, tks for your note.
I read about TS parameters, what's your point? Can you please explain alittle more?
tks, sb

Zilch
09-14-2009, 10:22 PM
Guaranteed to be at or better than original factory specs.Replicating the T/S parameters would be the likely starting point for substantiation of this claim.

Once that doesn't happen, THEN we could debate whether they are "better than" or not.... ;)

Earl K
09-15-2009, 04:53 AM
I read about TS parameters, what's your point? Can you please explain alittle more?

- My point is that if a recone kit doesn't match the originals' TS parameters / then all claims of it conforming to the original spec. are fraudulent .

- Think of the TS Parameters as a mapping of the speakers' DNA sequence . This "map" goes a very long way to describing how any transducer is going to perform .

- Simply gluing a high temperature voice-coil onto a proper sized generic paper cone ( to create a kit that handles gobs of power ) doesn't equate to the new kit being a better speaker than the original ( even though it handles more power ) .

>< cheers :)

ps; Are you going to email McKenzie and ask about their kits' TS parameters ?

BMWCCA
09-15-2009, 06:03 AM
Guaranteed to be at or better then original factory specs. I have no horse in this race but, to be fair, what I saw on their site said:
These kits are engineered to be very accurate replacements. In most cases the components used in the McKenzie kits are the same components used by the original manufacturer. McKenzie guarantees all its replacement kits to be accurate to the original manufacturersí specifications and come with full replacement warranty.Now I don't see how much of this claim is possible but, given the depressing outlook from 4313B, it couldn't hurt to ask them to substantiate it. I believe it has been said or implied here that JBL doesn't manufacture all of their cones (if any) so it only makes sense that a supplier might be interested in selling a product they have the tooling for to another market if their OE customer is no longer interested. :dont-know

4313B
09-15-2009, 07:10 AM
The current rumor is that JBL will start outsourcing their legacy kits rather than simply cutting off support altogether. It remains to be seen what will shake out, but the current support we all know and love is allegedly in its final days. This applies to Consumer although I've heard similar rumblings within Pro.

robertbartsch
09-15-2009, 07:27 AM
Is there any manufacturor that supplies replacement parts for untis that were manufactured 30 - 40 years ago?

I can't think of a single one except JBL.

4313B
09-15-2009, 07:32 AM
Is there any manufacturor that supplies replacement parts for untis that were manufactured 30 - 40 years ago?

I can't think of a single one except JBL.Yep. It's almost like they got stuck in a vacuum. 95% of the people working there don't even know what any of those old systems are... they might know a Paragon only because one sits in the lobby but that's about it. If necessary they come here to the Library to see what is what. No, I'm not kidding.

BMWCCA
09-15-2009, 07:37 AM
The current rumor is that JBL will start outsourcing their legacy kits rather than simply cutting off support altogether. It remains to be seen what will shake out, but the current support we all know and love is allegedly in its final days. This applies to Consumer although I've heard similar rumblings within Pro.Short-sighted, as we all know. Another example of JBL not leveraging their heritage. Again with the auto references, but M-B, Porsche, and BMW all support their vintage vehicles by supplying reproduction-as-original parts through vintage-and-classic sub-corporations that do nothing else.

Mercedes has pretty much always done it. Porsche may well be inclined not to now that they're part of VW. And BMW has been making up for lost time after neglecting this market until the advent of the luxury-Asian products sent them back to leveraging their heritage advantage. I still say there's a way for JBL/Harman to make their heritage and their legacy products boost their bottom line. They just need some sharp marketing heads, not the ones that don't even try to sell product in their home country. They seem to know where the money is in Asia, but can't figure out where it is in this country, and it's substantially held by aging baby boomers who remember what JBL once meant in the retail market.
:banghead:

robertbartsch
09-15-2009, 10:02 AM
I wonder what the profit margins are on legacy re-cones, for example?

Since they don't really have a JBL retail system for new products in the U.S., at least their legacy parts sales currently make money for the company.

I would assume if their plan is to eliminate legacy parts sales in the near future that perhaps they are also considering re-establishing a retail network for new systems in the U.S.

Since new system sales would likely compete with legacy sales, elimination of legacy sales, where profit margins would likely be lower, may be the reason.

4313B
09-15-2009, 10:25 AM
their legacy parts sales currently make money for the company.Evidently the bean counters aren't impressed.

Also realize that the bean counters are very probably outsourced and have no actual stake in the company as a legacy. To them it is very probably "just a job". There is no labor of love here. Those guys and gals are gone.

gsb001
09-15-2009, 11:54 AM
Anyone tried these yet or know of actual experiance with them?

If the build quality is as claimed, It seems like a worth while option.

I have four pair that need re-coning, so I'm going to give one pair a try, and see how iy goes.

SB

dprice
09-16-2009, 02:53 PM
I find it hard the believe that repair parts aren't profitable. I don't see a lot of costs for R&D, marketing, or inventory. I can't think of many products that sell themselves as easily as a recone kit.

Case in point...$94 to recone a LE25-2. Ignoring labor costs, does the repair kit really cost more to make than what goes into a $15 parts express tweeter?

Does anyone really believe recones are scavenging from the new equipment sales? Given the premium cost of JBL drivers, I would look long and hard at the competition.

Maybe the key is to sell the process as "green" and good for the environment.

Oh well. Once they drop the repair parts I'm sure the "LH approved" stamp will really mean something to the vendors that are willing to step in to fill the void with quality products.

hjames
09-16-2009, 03:14 PM
You have a large company and costs get amortized across the entire enterprise. Not a bad thing, it just is. It costs money to keep parts on a shelf, to stock a warehouse. And you need someone to make sure the replacement parts are at least the equal of the original. And if they are not? How do you know the repairs are done properly with the correct parts?
What do you plan to warrantee? And on what terms?

Just-in-time supply is great for current production lines, but sucks regarding the long tail of older products that are not as popular or in as much demand. What is the cost of having someone crank out 50 or 100 of an older part, then stocking the remainder for a few years? What if its 600 different items, or 3600?

Walmart sez - you manufacture and warehouse all this stuff and we'll tell you when to send the next load ... Our stock is on the floors, in the stores. Old products? nah, buy a new one ... we aren't in the vintage business, its all "what have you bought from me lately?"

And - "LH approved" parts?? oh come on now, you're just blowing smoke there!



I find it hard the believe that repair parts aren't profitable. I don't see a lot of costs for R&D, marketing, or inventory. I can't think of many products that sell themselves as easily as a recone kit.

Case in point...$94 to recone a LE25-2. Ignoring labor costs, does the repair kit really cost more to make than what goes into a $15 parts express tweeter?

Does anyone really believe recones are scavenging from the new equipment sales? Given the premium cost of JBL drivers, I would look long and hard at the competition.

Oh well. Once they drop the repair parts I'm sure the "LH approved" stamp will really mean something to the vendors that are willing to step in to fill the void with quality products.

badman
09-16-2009, 10:07 PM
2213H & 123A-3 Mac Kenzie re-cone kits
Hi Everyone,
Searched site and found no results.
Iím looking for thoughts, input, feed back, experience, ETC on Mac Kenzie aftermarket re-cone kits. Build quality, sound quality and install.
http://reconekits.com/jbl2213h.aspx (http://reconekits.com/jbl2213h.aspx)
I replaced pair of 2212ís with new JBL re-cones kits last year and they made a huge difference in the sound quality. Itís very easy to tell the difference between speakers with new cones and 20 + year old ones.
Iíve bought used complete speakers with hit and miss results. Canít find any on the normal sites right now, so Iím researching re-cone kits.
Mac Kenzie sell pairs of 2213H for $140.00 compared to JBLís at $370 a pair.
Guaranteed to be at or better then original factory specs.
Thanks - SB

If they did Le8t I'd confirm it for everybody......

Russellc
09-17-2009, 06:01 AM
Anyone tried these yet or know of actual experiance with them?

If the build quality is as claimed, It seems like a worth while option.

I have four pair that need re-coning, so I'm going to give one pair a try, and see how iy goes.

SB

Do you happen to be in possession of Woofer tester, or other T/S measuring apparatus? Would be interesting to see how they come out after breakin.:applaud:

Russellc

Wagner
09-17-2009, 08:46 AM
You have a large company and costs get amortized across the entire enterprise. Not a bad thing, it just is. It costs money to keep parts on a shelf, to stock a warehouse. And you need someone to make sure the replacement parts are at least the equal of the original. And if they are not? How do you know the repairs are done properly with the correct parts?
What do you plan to warrantee? And on what terms?

Just-in-time supply is great for current production lines, but sucks regarding the long tail of older products that are not as popular or in as much demand. What is the cost of having someone crank out 50 or 100 of an older part, then stocking the remainder for a few years? What if its 600 different items, or 3600?

Walmart sez - you manufacture and warehouse all this stuff and we'll tell you when to send the next load ... Our stock is on the floors, in the stores. Old products? nah, buy a new one ... we aren't in the vintage business, its all "what have you bought from me lately?"

And - "LH approved" parts?? oh come on now, you're just blowing smoke there!


Sad part of it is though that you are describing a VERY modern (recent) business model.
Didn't use to be that way and we got along fine, buying new toasters or fixing old ones.
Hell of a lot more economic stability and you could actually walk down main street U.S.A. and BUY STUFF from actual STORES and stuff! :bouncy:

"New World Order" & it's degenerate sibling "The Global Economy" :bs:

It's a damn shame. :(

Thomas

Wagner
09-17-2009, 08:47 AM
Sorry.
Didn't mean to ramble, BUT
My "legacy" JBLs (aside from their fabulous sound) also give me comfort
in being something tangible from MUCH better times.
Not to mention the fact that they blow away most of the "consumer" crap that's out there for just pennies on the dollar because "they're old".
I'll take that!

Thomas

hjames
09-17-2009, 11:36 AM
Don't I know it!
I grew up with older stuff, and have all kinds of what is now called "vintage" gear around. Sunbeam mixers, Waring blenders, Eico scopes, and all that 70s era audio stuff from JBL and UREI ...
Heck, I just bought a 60s era wall unit for my office - tho the pic is the previous owner's arrangement, (I'm in the midst of painting my office wall before setting it up).
Won't find THAT puppy at Wally World!


Sad part of it is though that you are describing a VERY modern (recent) business model.
Didn't use to be that way and we got along fine, buying new toasters or fixing old ones.
Hell of a lot more economic stability and you could actually walk down main street U.S.A. and BUY STUFF from actual STORES and stuff! :bouncy:

"New World Order" & it's degenerate sibling "The Global Economy" :bs:

It's a damn shame. :(

Thomas

MikeBrewster77
09-17-2009, 11:38 AM
Love the styling on the wall unit, though the irony that the prior owner had JBL Creature computer speakers on it is funny :p

hjames
09-17-2009, 11:50 AM
Love the styling on the wall unit, though the irony that the prior owner had JBL Creature computer speakers on it is funny :p
Well, what can I say ... ? :applaud:
Me - I need to find another clean pair of L20T3s to stick up top -
once I get it all reassembled.

dprice
09-17-2009, 06:07 PM
Sad part of it is though that you are describing a VERY modern (recent) business model.
Didn't use to be that way and we got along fine, buying new toasters or fixing old ones.
Hell of a lot more economic stability and you could actually walk down main street U.S.A. and BUY STUFF from actual STORES and stuff! :bouncy:


My younger brother teaches 9th-10th grade science classes. One day (2008) the electric pencil sharpener quit working. During a quiz, he pulled out a screwdriver and took it apart. The students were intruiged. "What are you doing?" one asked. "Trying to fix it", he replied. And this went on for a few minutes until he found the loose whatever it was and fixed the $15 pencil sharpener. The students seemed most amazed at the attempt to actually fix something that he didn't know about (he never studied pencil sharpener repair but once owned a 1978 Chevy Monza a fact that he would not divulge for some reason) rather than simply buying a new one. It seems that those born in 1984 don't seem to understand the repair concept.

It may take a while but I believe that the great recession and the internet may combine forces to convince folks that they really can can fix lots of the crap they already own rather than just buying new crap.

Sorry for the rant. I am preaching to the choir here about fixing old, but good, stuff.

Fred Sanford
09-17-2009, 07:46 PM
Well, what can I say ... ? :applaud:
Me - I need to find another clean pair of L20T3s to stick up top -
once I get it all reassembled.

I've got some L20Ts in line for some new cherry veneers...lemme know if you'd like a different finish instead...:applaud:

...also let me know if you want me to close up the rear port & install it in the front face! Oh, and the grilles were going to get the famous & controversial Nightbrace brown cloth, I suppose that can be altered, too. JBL blue?

je

Wagner
09-17-2009, 08:14 PM
My younger brother teaches 9th-10th grade science classes. One day (2008) the electric pencil sharpener quit working. During a quiz, he pulled out a screwdriver and took it apart. The students were intruiged. "What are you doing?" one asked. "Trying to fix it", he replied. And this went on for a few minutes until he found the loose whatever it was and fixed the $15 pencil sharpener. The students seemed most amazed at the attempt to actually fix something that he didn't know about (he never studied pencil sharpener repair but once owned a 1978 Chevy Monza a fact that he would not divulge for some reason) rather than simply buying a new one. It seems that those born in 1984 don't seem to understand the repair concept.

It may take a while but I believe that the great recession and the internet may combine forces to convince folks that they really can can fix lots of the crap they already own rather than just buying new crap.

Sorry for the rant. I am preaching to the choir here about fixing old, but good, stuff.


I can't help but imagine that 9th and 10th graders in 2008, that were born in 1984 WOULD be "intrigued and amazed".
Bet watching pop corn pop would be like an acid trip! :bouncy:

Thomas

Wagner
09-17-2009, 08:16 PM
Don't I know it!
I grew up with older stuff, and have all kinds of what is now called "vintage" gear around. Sunbeam mixers, Waring blenders, Eico scopes, and all that 70s era audio stuff from JBL and UREI ...
Heck, I just bought a 60s era wall unit for my office - tho the pic is the previous owner's arrangement, (I'm in the midst of painting my office wall before setting it up).
Won't find THAT puppy at Wally World!

Wouldn't that just be lovely in a room with a Paragon or maybe a pair of Hartsfields?

Thomas

Wagner
09-17-2009, 08:20 PM
On second thought, I'd stick with the Paragon.
Thomas

Wagner
09-17-2009, 08:32 PM
I've got some L20Ts in line for some new cherry veneers...lemme know if you'd like a different finish instead...:applaud:

...also let me know if you want me to close up the rear port & install it in the front face! Oh, and the grilles were going to get the famous & controversial Nightbrace brown cloth, I suppose that can be altered, too. JBL blue?

je


I've done a search on this "Nightbrace brown" cloth. Can only find a mention. Where can one go to read the full saga!?

Thomas

Fred Sanford
09-18-2009, 03:37 AM
I've done a search on this "Nightbrace brown" cloth. Can only find a mention. Where can one go to read the full saga!?

Thomas

It's probably been deleted, and rightly so- it was all drama & no real Lansing content (including the cloth, ultimately :blink:). Heather understands, sorry if it's a tease to you.

je

hjames
09-18-2009, 06:08 AM
Basically, "Nightbrace brown cloth" was pretty much brown cloth as used on L-36 Decades (and similar) speakers.
We will not speak of the backstory ... ;)

hjames
09-18-2009, 06:12 AM
I've got some L20Ts in line for some new cherry veneers...lemme know if you'd like a different finish instead...:applaud:

...also let me know if you want me to close up the rear port & install it in the front face! Oh, and the grilles were going to get the famous & controversial Nightbrace brown cloth, I suppose that can be altered, too. JBL blue?

je

I'll get back to you once I have the shelves reassembled - its possible even L20Ts are too large for those cabinets (top surface is 27w x 12d) and I may just move my Minimus 7 ADC clones up there ...

badman
09-18-2009, 08:29 AM
My younger brother teaches 9th-10th grade science classes. One day (2008) the electric pencil sharpener quit working. During a quiz, he pulled out a screwdriver and took it apart. The students were intruiged. "What are you doing?" one asked. "Trying to fix it", he replied. And this went on for a few minutes until he found the loose whatever it was and fixed the $15 pencil sharpener. The students seemed most amazed at the attempt to actually fix something that he didn't know about (he never studied pencil sharpener repair but once owned a 1978 Chevy Monza a fact that he would not divulge for some reason) rather than simply buying a new one. It seems that those born in 1984 don't seem to understand the repair concept.

It may take a while but I believe that the great recession and the internet may combine forces to convince folks that they really can can fix lots of the crap they already own rather than just buying new crap.

Sorry for the rant. I am preaching to the choir here about fixing old, but good, stuff.

It's a shame that that's the reality. My kids get to see the task being done and will know how to patch some friggin' drywall, it seems that those born after 60 or so tend to not 'get it'.

Fred Sanford
09-18-2009, 05:58 PM
Basically, "Nightbrace brown cloth" was pretty much brown cloth as used on L-36 Decades (and similar) speakers.

That was kind of the last little punch line to the story- it's not at all the brown cloth used on L-36 & similar speakers.

je

Fred Sanford
09-18-2009, 05:58 PM
I'll get back to you once I have the shelves reassembled - its possible even L20Ts are too large for those cabinets (top surface is 27w x 12d) and I may just move my Minimus 7 ADC clones up there ...

There y'go...and tuck a little sub in the corner.

je

hjames
09-18-2009, 09:39 PM
That was kind of the last little punch line to the story- it's not at all the brown cloth used on L-36 & similar speakers.

je

But, it was supposed to be ...
quick now, someone yell You Lie in Nightbrace's general direction ...:D

badman
09-22-2009, 11:56 AM
No response from them from an inquiry some days ago, they're poor at customer service, it would seem.

gsb001
09-24-2009, 08:14 PM
Badman - what was your question to the web site?
SB

badman
09-25-2009, 10:28 AM
Same as my curiousity on this thread. Looking to see if there is a le8t kit forthcoming.

gsb001
09-27-2009, 11:16 PM
I'm going to order a pair on Mon. and see how it goes.
SB

badman
09-29-2009, 03:02 PM
A pair of what? 2213 cones?

gsb001
10-05-2009, 08:43 PM
Yes -a pair of 2213H cones.
SB

GordonW
10-06-2009, 10:41 AM
The one telling thing, will be the shape of the cone profile.

A true 2213/123A kit will have a bell-shaped cone... flared akin to the end of a trumpet bell. Most of the aftermarket parts I've seen recently, were straight-sided cones... as in the 128H. In fact, most of these have been simply a 128H cone grafted to a fabric surround... which it actually looks like this MacKenzie kit might be.

The cone profile is especially important with 2213H/123A woofers... as they're usually run "wide open" on top, with no low-pass filter. So, the upper frequency behavior is VERY important... the 123A/2213 has MUCH more "benign" breakup modes in its upper range, compared to the sharp peaking (comparatively) of the 128H-type cones. This peaking is not important where the 128H is normally used... the lowpass filter in the crossover "gets it out of there" at low enough of a frequency that the breakup is never "activated" at a significant level...

When you do get these new MacKenzie kits, please do post of a picture of the side of the cone (in profile) compared to the original cone. That will definitely tell a lot...

Regards,
Gordon.

gsb001
10-26-2009, 07:38 PM
Hi Gordon,
Thanks for the note.
I have not ordered them yet. I still plan to.
I'll post picture.
SB

mulanee
05-04-2010, 05:09 AM
I'll post picture.
SB

Did you do it?

boputnam
05-04-2010, 10:41 PM
Anyone tried these yet or know of actual experiance with them?


- My point is that if a recone kit doesn't match the originals' TS parameters / then all claims of it conforming to the original spec. are fraudulent .

ps; Are you going to email McKenzie and ask about their kits' TS parameters ?And Earl is being ignored, why? Not smart - he's got it.

Lastly, from what I can tell, the 2213H kits are still available; 123A-3's not so much. But I believe you could recone with a 123A-1 kit (available) and invert the signal connections sustaining the OEM negative polarity of the 123A-3. 4313B knows if my hunch is right.

If you want to pay lower prices for non-OEM kits than you're on your own - not recommended here, but good luck if you go that way. If you want JBL spec performance go with JBL kits so long as they remain available. Trusting that you don't abuse your system, this is a one-time expense and therefore more easily justified.

gsb001
05-05-2010, 08:23 PM
I never did order pair. Sorry about not updating thread.
I still have three pair of 4311's that need 2213H's to be complete.
SB

boputnam
05-05-2010, 10:22 PM
I still have three pair of 4311's that need 2213H's to be complete.
SB


...the 2213H kits are still available.That is, if you only need the kits (and not complete drivers). :)