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tweeter
09-13-2009, 02:40 PM
Hello,
Ive found a pair of 4313B for sale.
The general shape is acceptable, except one tweeter dented and the woofers refoamed on the front of the cones.
Is it possible to remove the foam without damage the cones?
Are compatible the white woofers of the L96?
I also have a pair of 4301B. What sound differences should I expect?

Thanks.

Earl K
09-13-2009, 03:08 PM
Hello,
Ive found a pair of 4313B for sale.
The general shape is acceptable, except one tweeter dented and the woofers refoamed on the front of the cones..
- Buy them if the price is right .


Is it possible to remove the foam without damage the cones? Are compatible the white woofers of the L96?
- Truly talented reconers such as LHF member "edgewound", can do this surgery ( though it's not cheap due to the labour involved ).
- I wouldn't try it yourself until you have gained lots of hands-on experience at refoaming various woofers.

- The white coned le10h-1 sounds the same as the black coned le10h .

I also have a pair of 4301B. What sound differences should I expect?
- Don't know since I have neither .


Thanks.[/quote]

tweeter
09-25-2009, 04:13 AM
Hi, some pictures of the speakers. I will pay 150 euros.
I will need blue cloth, one 066 and probably I will swap the woofers for the LE10H-1 white ones (its a caprice). Can anyone help me to search them?
Thanks.

Ralph856
09-25-2009, 04:45 AM
Absolutely brilliant for 150 euros! :) Did you find them in Spain?

Why white? Get the woofers properly refoamed (at a really trusted speaker repairer). The correct roll is ~ 3/8" (9-1/2 mm) wide. Or get them reconed, as kits are still available. You should have the option of white (LE10) or black (LE11) cones, I think, but someone who knows more can confirm..

Is that 066 non-functioning or does it just need its dome carefully pulled out with tape?

BMWCCA
09-25-2009, 05:40 AM
Why not just let them play with the surrounds installed as they are? YOu can always re-cone later. Or just wait for a pair that don't need that much work. It would seem you'd be spending less money to get a complete pair rather than "jacking up the gas cap" as car restorers call it.
Is that 066 non-functioning or does it just need its dome carefully pulled out with tape?That's gonna take more than tape! Where's that shot of Scotty our LH hand-model?

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=22546

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=34677&stc=1&d=1224129974

Ralph856
09-25-2009, 06:10 AM
Or just wait for a pair that don't need that much work.

Hmm, lovely mirror-imaged 4313B's don't appear very often in Europe to say the least :). Worse case scenario is the 066 is unrepairabe and he needs to track down another. But, IIRC, he could stick a pair of (easier to find) 044 in their instead. Not too much work for such a great speaker ;).

BMWCCA
09-25-2009, 06:31 AM
Hmm, lovely mirror-imaged 4313B's don't appear very often in Europe to say the least :).Hmm, these need woofers and one tweeter. I assume you're not referring to these as "lovely" except in their potential. I guess I'm thinking either do it right or keep looking. Which may be exactly what the OP is thinking. More power to him for wanting to bring a classic system back to full-voice! :applaud:

Ralph856
09-25-2009, 08:43 AM
Hmm (again:)), I'm saying LOVELY as is, especially for 150 euros!

The cabs look fine from the pictures (although difficult to tell for sure), the woofers possibly only a refoam. Even recones would not be OTT considering the purchase price. The only potentially serious issue is the tweeter (IF not working), and even that can be remedied by using 044's. Or looking hard for a 066.

Oh, I forgot. You prefer L112's ;).

BMWCCA
09-25-2009, 10:26 AM
Oh, I forgot. You prefer L112's ;).
But I also own L96s!

I normally drive my BMW 525i but I also enjoy my '64 700 convertible, or my '87 535is. Life's too short to try everything, but trying makes it much more fun!

I hope you get 'em and a simple finger-poke fixes your 066. You'll never know until you try.
Lord knows not everything I buy is in perfect shape! :)

tweeter
09-25-2009, 03:28 PM
Hello BMWCCA and Ralph856, thanks for your comments.
The cabs are ok, only a sanding and refinish of the veneer is needed.
Appart, the grill cloth is damaged, so I need to replace them.


Absolutely brilliant for 150 euros! :) Did you find them in Spain?

Why white? Get the woofers properly refoamed (at a really trusted speaker repairer). The correct roll is ~ 3/8" (9-1/2 mm) wide. Or get them reconed, as kits are still available. You should have the option of white (LE10) or black (LE11) cones, I think, but someone who knows more can confirm..

Is that 066 non-functioning or does it just need its dome carefully pulled out with tape?

Yes, I found them in Spain (what a lucky), as I found a pair of 4301B, that after restoration they looks as new and the sound is marvelous.
I think the woofers works ok, but I dont like the foam in the front of the cones. If I decide to search a pair of LE10H, I prefer to purchase the white ones.
I think the 066 works but If I cannot repair the dome I will need to go for another unit (hard search).
More pictures of the tweeter:

Audiobeer
09-25-2009, 05:02 PM
Take a piece if wire or even a tooth pick, have it at the ready. Make sure it's not sharp. Take a dab of hot glue and place it right in the center of the collapsed dome. Put the stub end of the tooth pick in the dab and let it cool while you hold it. Let it cool enough that it will stand up while you walk away. When it's very cool grab the tooth pick and slowly pull it back till the dome comes out. Once thats done grab that gob of goob like a you would a bugar with your finger nails and remove it from the cone. You may have to do it a couple of times but it works. Worse case scenario is that some of the paint on the dome comes off. If that happens just mask off around the dome and paint it with silver spray to match. :D

Don't worry about parts, they're still around but a lot of the time people who have the LEh-10H and the 066 tweeters reconed are waiting for the economy to get better to sell for at least what they have in it. I don't believe there are any black face woofer cone kits from JBL left.

tweeter
10-17-2009, 03:52 PM
Ive got the speakers at home.
The first approach has been to remove the woofers.
Altough they are both LE10H, the terminals layout is different. Why?
By moving manually the cones, seems too rigid and one of them rubbing.
I dont know if the foam is the correct or perhaps the wrong layout in the front.
The tweeter dome has been repaired with the aid of a electrical tape.
Sticking the tape softly and pulling out quickly, easy and effective.
Ive applied the same technique to a mid with the same issue.

tweeter
10-18-2009, 03:20 PM
The foams are from Simply Speakers.
I dont know the nature of the glue, so Im not sure about the removing....

macaroonie
10-18-2009, 04:44 PM
That looks to me like contact cement ( the yellow colour ) If you get some Zippo lighter fuel and a cotton bud you can test out on some of the excess to see if it will soften. You will not harm the cone with this.

John
10-18-2009, 11:52 PM
That looks to me like contact cement ( the yellow colour ) If you get some Zippo lighter fuel and a cotton bud you can test out on some of the excess to see if it will soften. You will not harm the cone with this.

You sure? I think I would just use as is if they are working or refoam but your never going to get that cone back to original.

Recone is the only true fix.

tweeter
10-19-2009, 06:08 AM
Ive just asked to Simply Speakers if there is a solvent for the glue.
Im waiting the answer.

What is the recone kit part number and where I can find it?

LRBacon
10-19-2009, 08:34 AM
Altough they are both LE10H, the terminals layout is different. Why?
By moving manually the cones, seems too rigid and one of them rubbing.
I dont know if the foam is the correct or perhaps the wrong layout in the front.

The difference in the terminal placement I would assume to be a design change of the basket frame. Your 4313Bs may have been manufactured at the time of the change or the original woofer could have been defective and replaced with a later model. All the original LE111H woofers I have are like the one on the right in your pics, except the frame fronts are painted flat black. The LE111H, the LE10H and the LE10H-1 are all the same acoustically regardless of the place of the terminals on the frame.

When I replaced the surrounds on my original LE111Hs back in the early 90's, I used a pair I had purchased from Simply Speakers. It was their recommendation at the time to use contact cement and to attach the surround to the front of the cone. Contact cement is not very forgiving, once in place it's stuck. (Acetone may work as a solvent.) Fortunately I managed to get the voice coils pretty much centered so they didn't rub. Your best bet is to have them reconed. There is nothing like the compliance of a freshly reconed woofer compared to the aftermarket surround kits. Have them done by a JBL professional and use the C8RLE111H kits.

Larry

tweeter
10-19-2009, 09:30 AM
Thanks LRBacon.

The answer of the provider has been to use lacquer thinner.

I suppose Ill do a try and if doesnt work I will go for the reconekits.

grumpy
10-19-2009, 10:12 AM
Read and observe all of the precautions on the lacquer thinner container.

E.g.,

http://www.newparks.com/PDF/MSDS/SOLVENTS/LacquerThinner.pdf

badman
10-19-2009, 03:02 PM
There is nothing like the compliance of a freshly reconed woofer compared to the aftermarket surround kits. Have them done by a JBL professional and use the C8RLE111H kits.

Larry


I've not seen any evidence of significant spider deterioration with age in JBL speakers. My Qms are within spec (or slightly higher, meaning softer) on all vintage transducers I've tested, once surrounds are correct.

Have you done anything besides a subjective test? Not that that's inherently invalid, just curious.

Akira
10-19-2009, 04:48 PM
If genuine refoam parts are used, is there any sonic difference between a front vs rear fit? Why?
Personally, if there is not an audible difference I would wait until the speaker needs refoaming in the future.

BMWCCA
10-19-2009, 07:31 PM
If genuine refoam parts are used, is there any sonic difference between a front vs rear fit? Why? Well, to start, there is no such thing as "genuine refoam parts" from JBL since they don't sell edge kits. They only sell complete re-cone kits. Assuming the surround kit you can get reasonably approximates the durometer/compliance of the original parts, putting them on the front of the cone could result in a possible displacement of the cone rearward at rest that could put pressure against the spider that shouldn't be or wasn't there in the original speaker. It's not inconceivable that using an improper surround or installing it improperly could negatively affect the excursion. That's my guess as a layman with no real experience or knowledge to back it up, FWIW.

That being said, I do trust—and have used—surrounds from Rick Cobb with what I would describe as great success. But I'd feel cheated if I'd paid money for any JBLs that had been "professionally" re-surrounded on the wrong side of the cone with the incorrect material and some funky glue that left an ugly residue. :( :banghead:

LRBacon
10-19-2009, 07:51 PM
I've not seen any evidence of significant spider deterioration with age in JBL speakers. My Qms are within spec (or slightly higher, meaning softer) on all vintage transducers I've tested, once surrounds are correct.

Have you done anything besides a subjective test? Not that that's inherently invalid, just curious.

I've done only listening comparisons between woofers with just new surrounds and with those that have been freshly reconed. No actual measurements. The output of the woofers with only new surrounds is less compared to the freshly reconed woofers. One can always boost the bass I guess. I purchased a pair of surrounds from Rick Cobb for a pair of LE111Hs and they were no more compliant than the Simply Speaker surrounds I had purchased some 18+ years ago, quite stiff. Surrounds from Rick were highly recommended.

tweeter
10-20-2009, 06:17 AM
Ive asked to the Spanish authorized service and the prices for cone kits are
235USD + VAT for C8RLE111H and 280USD + VAT for C8RLE10H-1.
The C8RLE10H is not existing.
Toooooooo much for the pocket :jawdrop:

LRBacon
10-20-2009, 07:59 AM
Ive asked to the Spanish authorized service and the prices for cone kits are
235USD + VAT for C8RLE111H and 280USD + VAT for C8RLE10H-1.
The C8RLE10H is not existing.
Toooooooo much for the pocket :jawdrop:


Tweeter,

The LE10H uses the C8RLE111H kit.

Should you decide to attempt reattaching the surround to the back of the cone, I suggest that you order a surround kit from Rick Cobb and use the glue supplied. You will also get very good directions and a CD with a 30 Hz. tone that is played through the woofer to keep the voice coil centered in the gap while the glue is drying. Therefore no voice coil rubbing. Good luck with what ever you decide to do.

Larry
Who's been there, done that.

tweeter
10-20-2009, 09:17 AM
Ive just used a Rick Cobb kit for my 4301Bs and the result was excellent.
In fact, there was a woofer with voice coil rubbing and the 30Hz. CD test was magical.
In this case Im concerned about the damage of the cones by the lacquer thinner.

LRBacon
10-20-2009, 12:28 PM
Ive just used a Rick Cobb kit for my 4301Bs and the result was excellent.
In fact, there was a woofer with voice coil rubbing and the 30Hz. CD test was magical.
In this case Im concerned about the damage of the cones by the lacquer thinner.


You should have plenty of glue left over to do the LE10Hs and you have the CD.

Just be careful removing the contact cement. I'd use acetone before I'd use lacquer thinner. Take your time.

tweeter
10-21-2009, 03:22 AM
How to apply the acetone, with a brush, a cloth, directly?

Continuing with the restoration,
how can I to clean the ALPS potentiometers and what improvement should I do to the crossover, bypassing the capacitors perhaps?
Ist advisable to change the wiring?

Thanks a lot.

Fangio
10-21-2009, 04:05 AM
Good job on the 066.

Acetone is a more aggressive solvent than thinner and will soften/dissolve that glue but you are rightly concerned – it will also remove the paint from the cardboard on the cone edge. I doubt it can be done without visible traces.

tweeter
10-21-2009, 05:45 AM
And could be advisable to cover the carton cones with something like paint or AQUAPLAS?

tweeter
10-25-2009, 09:19 AM
Well, I did it.
The foam has been unstuck without problems thanks to a special contact cement thinner. The trick is to wait the time necessary for impregnation.
The only issue, as it was previsible, is some stains in the carton cones.
Now the question is what can I use to hide the stains, as paint, aquaplas, olive oil, etc... I dont know.
Ill appreciate any sugestion....

Audiobeer
10-25-2009, 10:24 AM
Couldn't you just saturate a rag with the same solvent and wipe down the cone lightly?

grumpy
10-26-2009, 07:37 AM
I'm impressed, regardless of the minor staining. Nice job.

LRBacon
10-26-2009, 08:29 AM
Looks like a very nice job to me, too.

Do you have the new surrounds yet?

Larry

badman
10-26-2009, 10:53 AM
Well, I did it.
The foam has been unstuck without problems thanks to a special contact cement thinner. The trick is to wait the time necessary for impregnation.
The only issue, as it was previsible, is some stains in the carton cones.
Now the question is what can I use to hide the stains, as paint, aquaplas, olive oil, etc... I dont know.
Ill appreciate any sugestion....

Very nice. I'd suggest that in addition to working outdoors, you utilize a fan to remove the VOCs as quickly as possible so as not to affect other glues in the structure.

tweeter
10-26-2009, 03:42 PM
Sorry, but what is "VOCs"? :dont-know
Ive just ordered the surrounds to Rick.
Im thinking to cover the cartons with something but.........what? :help:

BMWCCA
10-26-2009, 04:12 PM
Sorry, but what is "VOCs"? :dont-know
Volatile Organic Compounds: chemical vapors
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volatile_organic_compound

tweeter
10-26-2009, 04:27 PM
Thanks BMWCCA for the advise.
Now, for refreshing the cones I need something like this.
Does anyone know what product is it?

LRBacon
10-27-2009, 08:01 AM
It looks like a Japanese product from the pics you posted. I did search using "hosoken007" and what comes up are what appears to be Japanese sites.

Larry

tweeter
10-27-2009, 08:42 AM
Yes, you are in true.
http://jbl43.com/
They ship overseas but the order form is only in japanese :banghead:
Ive just e-mailed them and waiting response.

tweeter
11-13-2009, 06:09 AM
Well, Ive just received the package directly from Japan.
Ill post pics when the work has been done.

macaroonie
11-15-2009, 07:07 AM
There have been periodic questions about this , I hope you can give us a detailed description. What is the magic formula etc
Mac

tweeter
11-19-2009, 01:13 PM
Sure, let me some time......

tweeter
11-29-2009, 10:54 AM
Hi,
I have a problem with one woofer.
The cone is down and the voice coil seems to be trapped into de gap.
When I push down the cone there is no movement.
When I pull out the cone, it goes out with difficult and goes down quickly.
What should I do to solve this issue?.

hjames
11-29-2009, 11:09 AM
Hi,
I have a problem with one woofer.
The cone is down and the voice coil seems to be trapped into de gap.
When I push down the cone there is no movement.
When I pull out the cone, it goes out with difficult and goes down quickly.
What should I do to solve this issue?.

Its quite possible the woofer was driven hard, the "shellac" around the voice coil melted and bubbled up, and is now binding in the gap.

Generally that deserves a recone - JBL shop takes the old cone off- cleans all the gunk out of the gap, and puts a new speaker cone into place, with fresh spider and voice coil.

tweeter
11-30-2009, 06:38 AM
What about the aftermarket non-original re-conekits?

Earl K
11-30-2009, 07:23 AM
What about the aftermarket non-original re-conekits?

- No, that kit ( pictured ) won't work for you .
- And FWIW, this route is a waste of everyones' time, IMHO .
- Why ? Because these aftermarket kit guys just don't seem to care about matching the following TS specs ;
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=15487&stc=1&d=1146851968
- A "glaring" example of not them "giving a crap" ( except picking your pocket ) ; the voice-coil in the picture is the wrong winding depth.
- The "simplyspeakers" picture shows a coil depth of maybe 1/4" ( 6.35 mm ) / while the original JBL coil has a winding depth of 3/4" ( 19 mm ) .
- There are other problems shown / but I won't bother to elaborate .

You Are Better To :

- Measure the DCR ( DC resistance ) of your bad voice coil . It should measure between 4.3 to 5.2 ohms ( for an original OEM coil ) . If it measures correctly , I'd suggest that you remove this cone (with voice coil attached ) from the speaker basket .
- Use the chemical ( you used & pictured earlier ) to soften ( & eventually release the glue ) on the spider ( the corrugated, yellow fiber piece that is glued to the top-of the magnet ). Do the same with the foam surround .
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=42555&stc=1&d=1256487362

- If the voice-coil checks out visually with no apparent scraping ( or blistering ) of its surface ( & of course, electrically with the DCR test ) / then get a replacement spider from any aftermarket reconer ( of similar flexibilty & size ) . It's most likely a #2 ( out of 5 ) in reconers' jargon . Use your dissolving goop to get the old spiders' glue softened & dissolved for subsequent removal .
- Just take your time when working near to the voice-coil // since that goop will ruin the glue bond between the voice-coil wire & the former holding the coil ( then there is no way to save what you have ) .

<> cheers :)

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=15485&stc=1&d=1146851941

tweeter
01-27-2010, 03:04 PM
Well, after a while here Im again.
The repair stain liquid seems to be useful, the cones appears now almost new, but the ink has saturate the cartons. Its not too much volatile.
The aquaplas on the rear has become black and the cones has lost its rigidity.
Its the time for reconing.....

LRBacon
01-28-2010, 07:51 AM
Even after the ink has dried? Strange.:(

Larry

Audiobeer
01-30-2010, 11:56 AM
Wish you were local. Shipping is just a killer!

tweeter
01-30-2010, 02:47 PM
Ive just bought a pair of c8rle111h kits from an Ebay seller called giskard2000.

LE15-Thumper
01-30-2010, 02:58 PM
A nice guy :applaud:

Brilliant beyond words...seriously ! This is not :bs:

tweeter
01-30-2010, 03:09 PM
I think he is a LHF member......

BMWCCA
01-30-2010, 04:04 PM
Ive just bought a pair of c8rle111h kits from an Ebay seller called giskard2000.

I think you're in pretty good hands (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/member.php?u=15). ;)

LRBacon
01-31-2010, 08:42 AM
Ive just bought a pair of c8rle111h kits from an Ebay seller called giskard2000.


Sure can't beat the price!!!!

Audiobeer
12-30-2010, 11:21 AM
Giskard is the king of 4313B's. He will not steer you wrong. That last time we talked to him he was using his sattelite phone from Tibet while hunting wild boar. His last words to us was "Stay thirsty my friends".

Mr. Widget
12-30-2010, 02:49 PM
That last time we talked to him he was using his sattelite phone from Tibet while hunting wild boar. His last words to us was "Stay thirsty my friends".:applaud: :rotfl: :applaud:


Widget

JuniorJBL
01-05-2011, 05:01 PM
Giskard is the king of 4313B's. He will not steer you wrong. That last time we talked to him he was using his sattelite phone from Tibet while hunting wild boar. His last words to us was "Stay thirsty my friends".


Just read this!!

:rotfl: :applaud:

doodle6
01-06-2011, 07:32 AM
Giskard is the king of 4313B's. He will not steer you wrong. That last time we talked to him he was using his sattelite phone from Tibet while hunting wild boar. His last words to us was "Stay thirsty my friends".

The last time I was that thirsty, I found myself shooting feral hogs out the window of my brother's pickup.