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SteveW
08-31-2009, 09:27 AM
Need some recommendations for available JBL drivers to compliment a fairly new product called the Fractal Axe-Fx please. Plan is to pass on the info to the Axe-fx forum I also belong to.

The Axe-Fx is a high-end guitar processor that has the option of using internal simulation of a tube power-amp and cabinet or not. In other words, you can either feed the preamp output of the Axe-fx to a power section of an actual tube amp, which in-turn feeds a guitar cabinet, or feed the preamp output to a neutral SS amp that drives a clean as possible monitor of some sort. Powered floor monitors have become popular for this. Most are not very good at all.

This second method is called 'FRFR' (full range frequency response) and as mentioned earlier, the tube amp tone and cabinet IR is then provided by Axe-Fx. Sparing the details - this is the way to go.

What I need is model no's for both 12" and 15" drivers that would be considered accurate reproducers for FRFR. They need to be able to handle some power too.

These speakers will end up in who-knows-what guitar cabinets, replacing the normal guitar oriented stuff.

I can hardly recommend my setup because it's not practical for most folks - the Axe-Fx feeds the console to a batch of Crown K1's driving four 4435's and a pair of 4430's in a Control Room. That's the general idea here, just need something on a smaller scale without horns/crossovers. The high-end roll-off is a good thing.

Cost matters too!

Thanks...

jcrobso
08-31-2009, 09:43 AM
It would be helpful if you could post a link so we could get more info.
Amp modeling is not new, Line6 has been at it a long time. I have a couple of Line6 amps and I use JBL speakers in them.
I understand what you where your going with this, but no matter which speaker you use it's sound will be part of the whole sound.

SteveW
08-31-2009, 10:14 AM
Here you go... http://www.fractalaudio.com/forum/

Definitely not looking for guitar oriented, hi-colored speakers. Perhaps like something in my 4425's, maybe with more power handling.

boputnam
08-31-2009, 10:49 AM
I understand what you where your going with this...I'm not...

But...


...What I need is model no's for both 12" and 15" drivers that would be considered accurate reproducers for FRFR. They need to be able to handle some power too. I think you are going to be hard-pressed to find a single driver which will fit your parameters. I'd guess, also, that for accurate, uncolored reproduction you will need some EQ filters to achieve a good, flat response so the tube emulation can be dialed-in? Tall order...

SteveW
08-31-2009, 11:56 AM
I'm not...

But...

I think you are going to be hard-pressed to find a single driver which will fit your parameters. I'd guess, also, that for accurate, uncolored reproduction you will need some EQ filters to achieve a good, flat response so the tube emulation can be dialed-in? Tall order...

Hi again Bo!
The happy medium would be to just start with a speaker that didn't impart any color of it's own. The Axe-fx has plenty of para EQ to rub with.

To give you an overview, lets say my rig is the benchmark for tone. Lots of clean power/headroom. Monitors that are plenty capable of dynamic SPL.

That certainly can't go onstage so you grab some cheap stuff like a QSC HPR122i. Sounds bad as a stage monitor - the guy is way used to that 4x12 stack blowing air his way. The FOH sound is great however. Sound guy (that be you) loves it, no mic, just an XLR feed or two.

A step in the right direction would be to replace those farty greenbacks (or whatever) with something more accurate. Now the tube amp/speaker/IR emulation that sounds so good at FOH can be had on stage, at least way closer anyway - and blow some air too.

Another way to ask the question would be...

'I can't tour with my 4435, but I will change out the speakers in my marshall cab - what should I get?'

BTW, this thing ain't no toy POD or something. For instance, Dweezil has replaced his entire ZPZ rig with it, many other pros on it now too.

vernb
08-31-2009, 12:58 PM
As a guitar has quite a limited frequenzy range I would just go for the 12" drivers called E-120. They sound great are of awesome built quality and actually made for just that purpose.
Vernb

jcrobso
08-31-2009, 01:03 PM
As a Guitar player my sound was a combination of guitar-effects-amp-speaker. Generally to get the sound in the house I would mic the cabinet.
Now you are taking the speaker sound out of the equation and creating the sound via emulation, thus you want a very accurate monitor type speaker.

I took the Celestion speaker out of my Line6 and put in a JBL E120 because the JBL has a cleaner sound. Most guitar speakers have a "sound" and they tend to be about the only extended range speakers around.
Many players say JBLs are too clean for that "crunch" sound and they like Celestion. The JBL MI speakers were derived from a Hi-Fi extended range speaker design. D123a is a good speaker but they don't handle as much power as the D,K,E 120.
Does your Marshall have 12" or 10"? JBL also made the E110 speaker.
The down side is JBL stopped making the MI line and the only source is the used market.
The closest in a new speaker is this Beyma speaker.
http://www.usspeaker.com/beyma%20liberty-1.htm
Also the JBL 2206 is an excellent speaker but only goes up to about 2khz, you would have to add a HF speaker to get the highs.
I'm not sure if all this is helpful, it might be easier to get a JBL EON powered speaker and use it for your monitor.

Hamilton
08-31-2009, 01:09 PM
I own "a few" Marshalls. :D And this is the first time I've heard the phrase "farty greenbacks". :blink:

Is there such a thing as a "do all" speaker? Don't know, never heard of one. I don't know if there is such a thing as a "do all" guitar either, but probably not.

Fred Sanford
08-31-2009, 01:12 PM
Need some recommendations for available JBL drivers to compliment a fairly new product called the Fractal Axe-Fx please.

What I need is model no's for both 12" and 15" drivers that would be considered accurate reproducers for FRFR. They need to be able to handle some power too.

These speakers will end up in who-knows-what guitar cabinets, replacing the normal guitar oriented stuff.


The "who-knows-what" part of this makes it VERY tough to give you what you want- the cabinets are absolutely a large part of the equation. Open back vs. closed back, ported vs. sealed, single vs. multiple drivers, bare interior vs. stuffed...every bit of that will cause differences, often large differences.

The E120 is more accurate and more dynamic than the typical Celestion greenback, but far from the sparkly highs + fat bottom full range you'd be used to with a big JBL studio monitor. In fact, they're SO dynamic that they can hurt with guitar. It could be part of your solution, but it would be another thing to work around in some ways.

You'd really have to play around with each cabinet design. Are you really (sort of) asking how to make a 4 x 12 guitar cabinet into a high-powered hi-fi cabinet with some high-freq rolled-off?

je

Fred Sanford
08-31-2009, 01:14 PM
I own "a few" Marshalls. :D And this is the first time I've heard the phrase "farty greenbacks". :blink:


Try plugging them in as DJ speakers!

Probably a mis-application that caused the description.

je

Hamilton
08-31-2009, 01:34 PM
Try plugging them in as DJ speakers!

Probably a mis-application that caused the description.

je

Rated at 25 watts, I think Greenbacks used in a loud boomy dance/disco/rap/hip hop club might be considered a...."mis-application". :D

speakerdave
08-31-2009, 01:54 PM
I think you need a "keyboard" type box with the high's rolled off, or not, as you wish. You could start with a speaker like the Cabaret 4628. That has a fifteen-inch E145, an eight-inch 2118, and a 2404 biradial tweeter. If you need to roll off the highs, you could replace the 2404 with a small 1" horn and a one-inch JBL driver with a phenolic diaphragm. Or, you could modify the crossover with a low pass added to the tweeter circuit.

SteveW
08-31-2009, 03:12 PM
As a guitar has quite a limited frequenzy range I would just go for the 12" drivers called E-120. They sound great are of awesome built quality and actually made for just that purpose.
Vernb

That's a 'non-colored' speaker?


Does your Marshall have 12" or 10"? I'm not sure if all this is helpful, it might be easier to get a JBL EON powered speaker and use it for your monitor.

This query is for my comrades at the other forum. Totally happy with my 4435's! For some reason the guys diss the EON - it's very much a monkey-see/do thing over there. Thanks for going over there!


I own "a few" Marshalls. :D And this is the first time I've heard the phrase "farty greenbacks". :blink:

OK... I feel bad about that one. How about 'spongy' ;)


The "who-knows-what" part of this makes it VERY tough to give you what you want- the cabinets are absolutely a large part of the equation. Are you really (sort of) asking how to make a 4 x 12 guitar cabinet into a high-powered hi-fi cabinet with some high-freq rolled-off?

Yes and Yes. Not necessarily a 4x12, it/they could go in anything. Could maybe get away with suggesting a closed back/sealed cab but....


I think you need a "keyboard" type box with the high's rolled off, or not, as you wish. You could start with a speaker like the Cabaret 4628. That has a fifteen-inch E145, an eight-inch 2118, and a 2404 biradial tweeter. If you need to roll off the highs, you could replace the 2404 with a small 1" horn and a one-inch JBL driver with a phenolic diaphragm. Or, you could modify the crossover with a low pass added to the tweeter circuit.

That could work. I use a Peavey KBR-300 keyboard amp if I play out. It's pretty good actually but is discontinued as well. Needs to be an available product to recommend. JBL too!!!!



I may be asking too much. One big problem is guys buy this super cool thing and then pair it with bottom-feeder amps and floor monitors, or get really stupid and feed amp/speaker/cab sims into the power section of a Mesa head or something driving a guitar cab. Doubled up on everything!!

boputnam
08-31-2009, 04:59 PM
That's a 'non-colored' speaker?:p


I may be asking too much. I don't know if I can be any help in this quest. Like some others have posted, I work hard to capture the sound coming off the face of the artists' amp - while controlling the gain of that amp so it doesn't overwhelm the audience's experience. Being as I work for a "Jerry" guitarist :applaud: I love his tone through an E130 (mic'd with a vintage 409) and we try extra-hard to find the closest possible approximation of that cabinet when we rent backline on the road (most often a disappointment...).

But, I am intrigued with your idea(s) here, Steve, and will watch this thread!

speakerdave
08-31-2009, 06:41 PM
. . . . Needs to be an available product to recommend . . . .

JBL has an extensive line of Pro equipment. For information on that, consult your local JBL Pro dealer.

And read here:

http://www.jblpro.com/

SteveW
09-01-2009, 07:15 AM
Thanks for all the response guys. I feel like somewhat of an ignoramus thinking that a good speaker could be stuffed in any old cabinet and expect it to work - I know better.

Bo... for sure you will encounter an Axe-fx sooner or later. It's a really good unit - you will be surprised. Please give the guitar dude the benefit of the doubt and amp it up from his direct feed. He may even want to go stereo. I realize all the issues that go along with this. In proper hands the Axe-Fx is truly a game-changer. The most you may ask of him is to tweak the compression a bit to suit - if you can't cover that at FOH.

jcrobso
09-01-2009, 08:02 AM
http://cgi.ebay.com/JBL-Professional-Monitor-Loudspeaker-w-Bi-Radial-Horn_W0QQitemZ360184901435QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_De faultDomain_2?hash=item53dcb16f3b&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

http://cgi.ebay.com/JBL-MRX512M-Bass-Reflex-PA-MRX-512-FREE-SHIP-NICE-DEAL_W0QQitemZ300343339258QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_De faultDomain_0?hash=item45eddba8fa&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

http://cgi.ebay.com/Pair-of-High-End-Floor-Monitors-Loaded-W-JBL-Pro-Line_W0QQitemZ160359014970QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_De faultDomain_0?hash=item255624623a&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

If you want high end roll off I suggest you use EQ instead of the lack of high frequency response of the speaker.

The sound of a Marshall is the combination of the amp, speakers and the cabinet. If you have never heard a D,K,E,120 pick one up on ebay and give it a try. The reason the JBLs fell out of favor was two fold, one is cost very high. The other was the change in sound taste, guitarist wanted the distortion of a poorly desinged speaker to be part of the sound. The Vox speakers of the late 1960's had a very bad magnet design, this created a lot of second harmonic distortion. The Beatles loved that sound. The quest goes on. Now we have come full circle, the processor does every thing and we now want clean sounding speakers!:blink:

boputnam
09-01-2009, 04:30 PM
Bo... for sure you will encounter an Axe-fx sooner or later. It's a really good unit - you will be surprised. Please give the guitar dude the benefit of the doubt and amp it up from his direct feed. He may even want to go stereo. I realize all the issues that go along with this. I'm sure I will. And, we always follow the artists' lead, unless it results in a GL or other unintended consequence. If we get a GL, we'll just insert a DI between them and us. I carry hoardes of adapters and interconnects of all shapes, sizes and genders - the old "save the gig bag". Anyway, looking forward to it!

SteveW
09-01-2009, 08:04 PM
The Axe-Fx has pair of quality balanced outputs for FOH and I haven't heard of any weirdo GL issues yet. The one thing to be aware of is that the L/R output has this enhancer effect that essentially does a separation/phase thing. You'll be instant friends with the guy if you suggest that too much enhancer could be a FOH issue and might force you to run only one channel, or worse, pan them together. He can easily make the right changes beforehand and his 'sound' will be preserved - and your a hero. :applaud:

If you work with one of these things I would be interested hearing about it.

jcrobso, spot-on and thanks!


Ummmmm.......where's Giskard??????????????????.... :wave:.....?

Fred Sanford
11-02-2009, 05:38 PM
Duh- I finally put 2 + 2 together, and realized that this is a product that a friend of mine has been working on for years (I think he does their circuit board layouts, among other things)- he often carries one along with him when we get together, but we never seem to have the time to test it out. I gotta see if I can get me a demo/loaner to check out.

They also seem to have their own speaker/power solution:

http://www.fractalaudio.com/products-at-reactor.html

je